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Author Topic: Armor for monster mounts  (Read 15226 times)

Offline wissenlander

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Armor for monster mounts
« on: May 14, 2009, 07:34:37 AM »
While it's possible this would be a 'needed' change across army books, I think it's still an option worth looking at.  The point costs are just a best guess.  I had worked up an army list before but can't seem to find it so this is purely off of memory as are the accompanying rules:

Light barding (6+ save) - 10 pts
Heavy barding (5+ save, monster loses 1 inch of movement on the ground and in the air) - 20 pts
Full plate barding (4+ save, griffon only, monster loses 1.5 inches of movement on the ground and in the air) - 35 pts
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Offline Rodman49

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2009, 08:33:59 AM »
While it's possible this would be a 'needed' change across army books, I think it's still an option worth looking at.  The point costs are just a best guess.  I had worked up an army list before but can't seem to find it so this is purely off of memory as are the accompanying rules:

Light barding (6+ save) - 10 pts
Heavy barding (5+ save, monster loses 1 inch of movement on the ground and in the air) - 20 pts
Full plate barding (4+ save, griffon only, monster loses 1.5 inches of movement on the ground and in the air) - 35 pts

Bah, no monsters need armor.  I would say a reduction in the price of the Griffon is what is needed, maybe down to 100 to make it competitive with the War Altar.  Very little change but suddenly a General on Griffon with Runefang comes in at a more reasonable 300 rather than 400 points.

Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2009, 09:44:46 AM »
Totally agree with that cost reduction

+200 points is way too much at the moment.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2009, 11:32:24 AM »
That's kind of the point, though.  There's no real reason to take a monster mount at all, even in a points reduction, IMO.  And Uryens, if a free company guy is so important to have light armor I'd imagine you'd want a monster to have some too. :wink:

But apparently this isn't as popular of an idea as I had thought it may be.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 12:07:25 PM by wissenlander »
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2009, 12:43:57 PM »
Nah, most monsters get shot at by big ass warmachines which deny saves anyway so nah ;)

Plus I cant justify a Griffon carrying armour in my "gritty world of dark fantasy that is warhammer" head.

Though do dragons get a save? They should since they have armoured skin (see, armour is spelled with a U, otherwise its just french for love ;) )
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2009, 01:04:21 PM »
I think it's amor, but I'd have to ask my wife. :unsure:  You do bring up a valid point with the warmachines, though.
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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2009, 02:31:17 PM »
It's an interesting thought, but as stated earlier the majority of damage comes from war machines, so I doubt anyone would take armor even if it was offered.

However, I do like the IDEA of paying for better protection for my monstrous mount; maybe armor on a large target does work against war machine?  Maybe a ward save or something for the mount?  I'm not sure what would work and be balanced, but I'd definately consider the upgrade if it worked against war machines.

I think it's amor, but I'd have to ask my wife. :unsure:  You do bring up a valid point with the warmachines, though.

Don't listen to him; those crazy Europeans just love to put U's in everything!  Their colourful language is a labour to type, and there's no need to continue this discussion about the spelling of "armour" in that regard.
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2009, 03:10:57 PM »
If anything I would suggest a magic item ward save for a monster mount

And we put "u"s in because we can spell... :ph34r:
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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2009, 03:17:50 PM »
If anything I would suggest a magic item ward save for a monster mount

And we put "u"s in because we can spell... :ph34r:

Clearly not; whenever I type "armour" or "colour" my spell-checker says it's wrong. :wink:

See, even technology is against you lot!

But seriously, I think a magic item ward save would be an excellet solution!
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Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2009, 03:18:53 PM »
Armor = american spelling
Armour = english spelling

Color = American as well..
Colour = English..

Change your spell check from English US to English UK (or English Aus) not that I think you can do that with the standard one you get on W-E.

Then again you may all be taking the piss.
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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2009, 03:20:18 PM »
Quiet you, you're ruining our fun!
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Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2009, 03:22:55 PM »
Quiet you, you're ruining our fun!

Yes Ma'am... I mean...
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2009, 03:27:38 PM »
Bloody Colonials.

Anyway, rather than the ward save, I would just make them much cheaper

ie. Griffon down to 100pts.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2009, 04:09:09 PM »
Griffon down to 160pts.

Allow option of Barding or Full Plate Barding.
Barding = 6+AS
Full Plate = 4+AS
Neither inflicts a movement penalty (they are bigger and stronger than warhorse afterall).

No need for an inbetween - we do only have 2 mounts afterall.
Barding available for Pegasus,
Barding or Full plate available for Griffon

Dragons get a scally skin save, generally a 3+ I think.
Ward Saves for mounts are silly - a regen would be more appropriate (though not for all)
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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2009, 04:11:32 PM »
Griffon down to 160pts.

Allow option of Barding or Full Plate Barding.
Barding = 6+AS
Full Plate = 4+AS
Neither inflicts a movement penalty (they are bigger and stronger than warhorse afterall).

No need for an inbetween - we do only have 2 mounts afterall.
Barding available for Pegasus,
Barding or Full plate available for Griffon

Dragons get a scally skin save, generally a 3+ I think.
Ward Saves for mounts are silly - a regen would be more appropriate (though not for all)

But the discussion of Ward Saves was because armor saves, as written, do not work against war machines (the primary killers of flyers and monsters).  What's the point of dishing out more points on a useless save?  Now, if monstrous barding IS effective against war machines (maybe because it's heavier duty stuff, since the mount is bigger), then the discussion is over and Wards do become useless.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2009, 04:18:00 PM »
Armour would be just an option - good when you charge into a unit and teh rank and file allocate an attack on the mount because he doesn't have a 1+ AS like the character.

And Monsterous Mounts SHOULDN'T have Ward Saves, as moving them in front of a War Machine SHOULDN'T be a good idea.

Imagine if every monster we faced had a ward save. What good would our cannons be? Our cannons have a hard enough time with guessing distances, bounce rolls, rolls to wound and D6 wounds. Ward Saves on monsters make them too powerful, make them easy to use and people end up not using cover to hide their big monsters like they should.

Seriously, think about it from a different perspective.
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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2009, 04:22:31 PM »
Armour would be just an option - good when you charge into a unit and teh rank and file allocate an attack on the mount because he doesn't have a 1+ AS like the character.

And Monsterous Mounts SHOULDN'T have Ward Saves, as moving them in front of a War Machine SHOULDN'T be a good idea.

Imagine if every monster we faced had a ward save. What good would our cannons be? Our cannons have a hard enough time with guessing distances, bounce rolls, rolls to wound and D6 wounds. Ward Saves on monsters make them too powerful, make them easy to use and people end up not using cover to hide their big monsters like they should.

Seriously, think about it from a different perspective.

Well, I can certainly agree with the second point.  I'm not saying we should be able to charge a cannon head on and come out on top, I just felt that a little durability would be better.  However, taking that across the board would only take a bad situation (the current problem with dragons, etc.) and make it worse.

As for the other, I'd forgotten about people hacking apart a griffon instead of the rider.  I never take one because I can't justify the expense.
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Offline t12161991

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2009, 04:26:03 PM »
Amour is French for love ;).
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2009, 04:49:36 PM »
Griffon down to 160pts.

Allow option of Barding or Full Plate Barding.
Barding = 6+AS
Full Plate = 4+AS
Neither inflicts a movement penalty (they are bigger and stronger than warhorse afterall).

No need for an inbetween - we do only have 2 mounts afterall.
Barding available for Pegasus,
Barding or Full plate available for Griffon

So you like the idea? :Ohmy:  What do you think the point costs should be?  As it is, it looks pretty good me thinks.  And honestly, if there was some barding for the monsters I'd be more inclined to take one.  I do understand that warmachines can whack away just about anything, but it would be good to have some protection from other stuff.  As it is now, they don't.
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finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2009, 12:31:39 AM »
'Armor' is Uryens northern accent speaking french.

I like the idea of armour on mounts, though i'm not sure the exact specifications on 'full plat armour; would be on a griffon, that's like a few tonnes of metal.

Oh and yes, you colonials are wrong.
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« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 12:34:14 AM by Inarticulate »
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2009, 07:03:14 AM »
I am pro on the armour save and I am pro on the point reduction if you see the profile of a hydra for 175 points you just have to laugh over the griffon .....

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Offline t12161991

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2009, 02:45:22 AM »
Quote
We invented the computer and the internet so therefore everything should be spelled with real English on the web. We also invented the light bulb, not that Thomas Edison fellow.

I fixed your mistakes for you.


Wrong on all counts. Don't forget electricity, discovered by a very famous American...
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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2009, 03:10:52 PM »
Quote
We invented the computer and the internet so therefore everything should be spelled with real English on the web. We also invented the light bulb, not that Thomas Edison fellow.

I fixed your mistakes for you.


Wrong on all counts. Don't forget electricity, discovered by a very famous American...

If you're referring to Benjamin Franklin, he didn't "discover" electricity, technically.  He discovered that the atmosphere carries a charge, so more properly he "discovered" lightning, in the sense that he was able to explain what it was.

As for Thomas Edison, everyone knows he only invented the ability to bully and steal from Tesla and other great minds.  Thomas Edison lived his life as a fraud, made millions off others' inventions, and died wearing a "Suck it, Tesla" shirt that he did not design.
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Offline Rodman49

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2009, 05:02:43 PM »
Griffon down to 160pts.

Allow option of Barding or Full Plate Barding.
Barding = 6+AS
Full Plate = 4+AS
Neither inflicts a movement penalty (they are bigger and stronger than warhorse afterall).

160 points is WAY too expensive for a Griffon.  Think about the cost of the War Altar (100 points) and what it gives you - impact hits, Unbreakable, 4+ Ward Save, Lvl 5 Light Spell of your choice every turn . . .

A Griffon gives you some strength 5 attacks, terror, and mobility; I would say a comparable amount of bonuses to a worse character.  100 points seems both reasonable and fair.  I guess you could give the Griffon the option of armor (4+ Armor Save) for +20 points but it would only be decent against bow fire (which is legimate as everything can fire at it).

Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Armor for monster mounts
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2009, 06:04:30 PM »
I think you're under-costing the effects of those features.

Terror flank charges are a strong possibility with a griffon, and against a fair number of armies that's going to be a heavy tactical factor.  The mobility from flight is nothing to sneeze at either, and opens up a tremendous amount of options for attack.  Considering you can also bring a stank (or two!) and split enemy artillery, you're left with a monster with some good CC ability, mobility that can wreak havoc with tactics, and terror (which is always a potent force).

Now, it is indeed overpriced currently, no arguments on that.  But, I think 150 or so is definitely the right area.  The War Altar does have a lot going for it, but it's not as mobile and while it's a strong unit, it doesn't necessarily lend the same tactical punch as a flying monster.  It's truly the superior choice at the moment, and that's what we need to fix.  At 160 for a griffon or 100 for an altar, you have a real tough decision to make.  Under the current pricing, the altar stands out as a much smarter buy.
The first school of thought is that the ragged-assed Stirlanders, not having two coppers to rub together, nicked it when an elven envoy was passing through the area and had hopped off it to take a pee behind a tree