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Offline Ganymede

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Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« on: July 13, 2009, 06:29:17 AM »
Imperial Witch Hunter – 90 Pts.

Hero

   M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
Witch Hunter   4   5   5   4   4   2   5   3   8
Unit Size: 1

Equipment: Brace of Pistols

Options:
•   May be equipped with a great weapon for 5 points.

Special Rules: Behind Every Shadow, Cloaked Stranger

Behind Every Shadow: Witch Hunters are not deployed during the deployment phase like other characters. Instead, either at the beginning of his turn or the beginning of any close combat phase, Witch Hunters may be placed in any friendly unit of state troops or militia on the board. If placed in a unit engaged in close combat, the Witch Hunter will benefit from the Always Strikes First rule for that particular combat phase.

Cloaked Stranger: Unlike other characters, a Witch Hunter does not pass his leadership value to units he joins. Witch Hunters may never be the army general.

Imperial Captain – 60 Pts.

Hero

   M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
Captain   4   5   5   4   4   2   5   3   8
Unit Size: 1

Equipment: Full Plate Armor, Shield

Options:
•   May be equipped with either a great weapon, an additional hand weapon, or a halberd for 5 points.
•   May be equipped with either a pistol, a crossbow, a longbow, or an Imperial handgun for 10 points.
•   May be equipped with a barded warhorse for 15 points.
•   May be equipped with the battle standard for 25 points. A captain with the battle standard may not be the army general.

Special Rules: Disciplined Commander

Disciplined Commander: Any unit joined by a model with this special rule re-rolls all failed panic tests as well as all failed tests to restrain pursuit. Detachments of the joined unit also benefit from the re=rolls, as long as they are within 6” of the parent unit.

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 12:48:38 PM »
I actually really like this.

Would make the Captain a much more valued unit commander and not just an added s5 attack.
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Offline Shadoweyed

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 08:00:45 PM »
Wow, those are both rather good. My question though has to do with the witch hunter. Is he supposed to be delpoyed like a Dark Elf or Skaven Assassin? That is how I am taking it, and I think it works. I just wanted clarification on it.

-Shadoweyed

Offline Ganymede

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 08:31:02 PM »
My question though has to do with the witch hunter. Is he supposed to be delpoyed like a Dark Elf or Skaven Assassin?

He (or she) is deployed similarly to the assassins of the elves or skaven, but not exactly. For one, those two assassins need to secretly nominate a unit at the beginning of the game. The witch hunter can pop into any unit he wants, no declaration is necessary.

Offline Folken

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2009, 05:18:26 PM »
I mean while we like witch hunters, aren't their roles confined more off the battlefield?

Offline Ganymede

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2009, 06:32:28 PM »
I mean while we like witch hunters, aren't their roles confined more off the battlefield?

You do have a point.

I just felt that, being inspired by the large number of sub-par witch hunter submissions here, I should try to make one that was a bit better.

Offline Grumbaki

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2009, 03:59:53 AM »
I'm not sure that I like the idea of a witch hunter being an assassin. That really doesn't seem to be how they operate. Plus, they are not all super-hard fighters. Many use large warbands to get the job done, hired muscle, etc. They are smart, determined and resourceful, but that doesn't mean that they are all bad-ass.

If Witch Hunters have to be part of an Empire army, here is my take on them:

* Replaces Free Company Sergeant. Acts as a unit champion.
60 points
WS-5 BS-5 S-4 T-3 W-2 I-4 A-3 Ld-8
Equipment: Light Armor, Hand Weapon, Pistol
Special Rules: * Immune to Fear * Re-roll to wound rolls against daemons/undead in hand to hand combat

And there we go, we've got a witch hunter. They lead their warband (or village mob), have decent stats, the right equipment and they are best at doing what they are meant for: fighting the undead/daemons. Against other armies, they probably wouldn't be worth it, especially as units of free company can die pretty fast (and so will the witch hunters with T3 AS 6+). Add a warrior priest to the unit though and get the charge, and then they might do some damage.

What they are best for though is giving that free company LD 8 and immunity to fear. Witch Hunters are rabble rousers and great oraters, if they are in the game that should be part of their rules.

------

That said, I really like the take on captains. I'd love it if that idea could be implemented.
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Offline patsy02

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2009, 02:31:48 PM »
Quote
Witch Hunters are rabble rousers and great oraters,
They are? I thought people hated them. I would also have thought they acted more covertly, avoiding attention when they could.
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Offline Ganymede

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2009, 05:35:46 PM »
Quote
Witch Hunters are rabble rousers and great oraters,
They are? I thought people hated them. I would also have thought they acted more covertly, avoiding attention when they could.

Yeah, I'm going to call BS on that too. While "rabble rousers and great orators" would describe warrior priests perfectly, that is the exact opposite image I imagine from a witch hunter.

I don't understand why anyone would want to take that witch hunter as proposed. All he is is a crappy captain who is stuck in a crappy unit.

Offline Grumbaki

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2009, 03:44:31 AM »
Well, for witch hunter fluff I generally go with the Mordheim rulebook, and under their description that is what they are called. Here, have a look:

http://mordheimer.com/warbands/official/witch_hunters.htm

Or, if you don't want to read it there, then I'll just quote it.

"Witch Hunters are charismatic rabble-rousers who can soon turn a crown to their own ends. They are universally dreaded, for everyone has something or someone to hide."

Now, there are always going to be individual differnces. Mathias Thullman (a black library collection of books) shows him as being more sinister than charasmatic, but he does have his moments of working a crowd. He also never operates covertly. He shows off his station with style and seems to enjoy the fear/apprehension that his precence can cause. By the way, this is all official fluff, not just "how I imagine it."

So, how should a witch hunter be then? Should he be a kick ass warrior of justice who pops out magically from a unit and nina-kicks their head off? What he should be is someone who helps a unit meet the unholy without shitting their pants and who has a decent chance to taking down a vampire thrall or a daemon or two. What I posted above is an attempt at that.
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Offline Ganymede

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2009, 04:36:28 AM »
Paramount in determining the role of the witch hunter is determining something that is not redundant when compared to what warrior priests, battle wizards, and captains already do. We already have something that helps imperial units brave the unholy; they are called warrior priests. The last thing we want the witch hunter to be is a slightly different warrior priest.

I'd also eschew the text given in the Mordheim textbook in favor of a different approach. The witch hunters of that accursed city represent the unending paranoia and dogma of those still alive there, and are more the leaders of pitchfork wielding mobs than the inquisitorial arm of the church of Sigmar.

As it is, our "charismatic rabble-rousers who can soon turn a crown to their own ends," are our warrior priests.

Offline Grumbaki

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2009, 05:01:40 AM »
"I'd also eschew the text given in the Mordheim textbook in favor of a different approach. The witch hunters of that accursed city represent the unending paranoia and dogma of those still alive there, and are more the leaders of pitchfork wielding mobs than the inquisitorial arm of the church of Sigmar."

Nope, they are definatley the inquisitorial arm of the church of Sigmar. quote: "Carrying the edict of the Grand Theogonist himself, they have the divine right to judge and execute warlocks, witches, Chaos worshippers… in fact all who dare to oppose them. " They have all been sent by the Church of Sigmar, they are in no way just insane survivors.

Now, determining their role is then the matter. They should not be assassins, as it really isn't what they do. They don't hide in regiments, then suddenly rip off their helms, put on a floppy hat and scream "boo!". I mean, how would they hide in the unit of frilly armed, cod piece wearing halberdiers? Or great swordsmen? Or hell, even handgunners? It really doesn't make sense and it doesn't do justice to what witch hunters are. If you changed the entry to "Imperial Assassin" then it would fit much better.

So, you say that warrior priests are the leaders of men, who inspire them, etc. Well, they don't do this very well. They have 1 bound spell to make a unit unbreakable, and that is easily stopped. I use them in every game I play and I can never rely on them to do that. But they do give hatred, and that is golden.

Now, what can Witch Hunters do then? I see two options:

1) Huners
2) Oraters

My attempt was to make them a combination of both. They give immunity to fear, a great boon when facing the unholy. They also have a bit of an edge when fighting the unholy, which can easily be seen as them throwing holy water or using other tricks. It uses less special rules/new items then some other attempts.

So, what can we do to improve this?

----


Perhaps a witch hunter as a  0-1 rare choice?

(Witch Hunter Warband)

Witch Hunters 60 pts
M-4 WS-5 BS-5 S-4 T-4 W-2 I-5 A-3 Ld-8
Equipment: Pistol, Light Armor, Blessed Weapon (wounds undead and daemons on a 2+, armor modifiers as usual)

Witch Hunter Retinue: 8pts per model (0-9)
M-4 WS-4 BS-4 S-4 T-3 W-1 I-4 A-2 Ld-8
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light Armor
+1 point for extra hand weapon
+ 2 points for pistol
+ 4 points for a crossbow (in which case the witch hunter's pistol will be replaced with a crossbow as well)

Special Rules: The witch hunter and his retinue are:
* all immune to pyschology
* hate 1) undead 2) daemons 3) wizards (any model which can generate power dice)

------------

So, there is a different attempt. You get a fighty hero with a very mobile (and potentially dangerous) unit. They can be used to hunt for wizards who are outside of units, or can make the attempt to take down enemy heroes. So, what do you think?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 05:05:35 AM by Grumbaki »
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Offline Ganymede

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2009, 05:39:11 AM »
""So, you say that warrior priests are the leaders of men, who inspire them, etc. Well, they don't do this very well. They have 1 bound spell to make a unit unbreakable, and that is easily stopped. I use them in every game I play and I can never rely on them to do that. But they do give hatred, and that is golden.""

I don't quite understand your argument here. Are you trying to say that warrior priests are not inspiring orators because they do not seem to hold your units together in your actual games? That seems like a bit of a non sequiter to me. Anyways, these bad boys are fiery demogagues, and are able to stir the most righteous of fury in those inspired by their words and deeds.





I think your unit contribution here is little more than a contrived mishmash of redundant ideas. What of value does this unit even add to the empire army as a whole? It is basically a sub par warrior priest leading a unit of elite millitia. I find the only thing of value with these proposed rules is the opportunity for a Mordheim fanboy to use his witch hunter warband in a game of Warhammer (which, admittedly, could be pretty cool).


That, and I find it truly bizarre that you can't imagine someone hiding in a large group of other people. Ever try it in real life? It works pretty well.

Offline Grumbaki

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2009, 06:11:29 AM »
1) Hiding:

See the evidence on why hiding witch hunters (not assassins, witch hunters) doesn't work.

Witch Hunter: http://www.gamerdna.com/uimage/Iz35c0A/full/witch-hunter-warhammer-online.jpg

Soldier: http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module/71642/Empire%20NPC%20-%20Soldier_qjpreviewth.jpg

http://www.aiwfl.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/empire_art.jpg.w180h225.jpg

Now, for hiding in a large group. When they are all wearing the same uniform except for you...Good luck hiding! And really, I don't know where you get the idea that witch hunters are assassins.

2) Warrior Priests

Sorry if that confused you. I was just saying that both can have a role as leaders of men against the unholy. WP rouse you up, give you hatred. Witch Hunters bolster your courage, giving you immunity to fear, something that warrior priests don't seem to do very well with the current rules. The two work together, which makes sense as witch hunters and warrior priests go hand in hand when hunting down vampires/daemons.

3) Value

Magically teleporting assassins, or warbands of witch hunters? Hmm...we can have rules which actually depict how a witch hunter should be or have...well, rules that will leave people asking 'why are they called witch hunters? they work best against everything but the undead, daemons and other bad guys which they usually fight.' When have witch hunters snuck into a halberdier regiment, worn the same uniform as state troopers and then in the middle of a battle thrown it all down to pull out a great weapon? I don't know, it just doesn't seem like something that they'd do, when they could operate on their own, or with a band that they know and trust so independtly take out a heretic while they are distracted by the army. I guess it works when you make up your own fluff (going with what you see them as, rather than how they've been written).  :eusa_clap:

As for the value of my suggestion: they are a highly mobile, hard hitting unit that can take out vampires/daemons/wizards with ease. You know, what witch hunters are supposed to do?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 06:33:12 AM by Grumbaki »
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Offline Ganymede

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2009, 07:05:34 AM »
Now, for hiding in a large group. When they are all wearing the same uniform except for you...Good luck hiding! And really, I don't know where you get the idea that witch hunters are assassins.

I get the impression that you are feining ignorance in order to retreat to the last bastion of a weak argument. The rules presented in the opening post of this thread are an abstraction, an abstraction meant to convey the idea that a witch hunter's wrath could be lurking almost anywhere. The witch hunter is an ever present menace, a threat that is in the back of the mind of every sinner. His ability to strike at just the right moment (or wrong moment, depending on your prspective) is an abstraction of the utilitarian tenacity of the witch hunter combined with the deep paranoia of his victims. It doesn't matter where you go; he's going to get you. He is not an assassin, and I appoligize if the superficial similarity to the rules of assassins traps you in the cognitive box of thinking he is an assassin.

To imply that the only way a character to work in this way is to use a full disguise in combination with ninja magic is a bit intellectually dishonest. On a dusty, chaotic battlefield, it is not difficult for an inconspicuous witch hunter (who isn't even actively leading any troops) to be unnoticed. On a dusty, chaotic battlefield, enemy models aren't exactly playing a game of "Where's Waldo?"

Quote
2) Warrior Priests

Sorry if that confused you. I was just saying that both can have a role as leaders of men against the unholy. WP rouse you up, give you hatred. Witch Hunters bolster your courage, giving you immunity to fear, something that warrior priests don't seem to do very well with the current rules. The two work together, which makes sense as witch hunters and warrior priests go hand in hand when hunting down vampires/daemons.

So we have a warrior priest and a 'more different' warrior priest. I don't see this as a genuinely valuable addition to the Empire armylist.


Quote
3) Value

Magically teleporting assassins, or warbands of witch hunters? Hmm...we can have rules which actually depict how a witch hunter should be or have...well, rules that will leave people asking 'why are they called witch hunters? they work best against everything but the undead, daemons and other bad guys which they usually fight.' When have witch hunters snuck into a halberdier regiment, worn the same uniform as state troopers and then in the middle of a battle thrown it all down to pull out a great weapon? I don't know, it just doesn't seem like something that they'd do, when they could operate on their own, or with a band that they know and trust so independtly take out a heretic while they are distracted by the army. I guess it works when you make up your own fluff (going with what you see them as, rather than how they've been written).  :eusa_clap:

I already addressed most of this bogus strawman argument earlier in this post, but there is something I'll add. The Warhammer online game is actually a great resource for the evolution and development of the Empire force. One interesting note is their particular take of the witch hunter. These leather clad warriors are depicted very much in the vein of a stealthy, methodical killer.

One thing that I am afraid of is that you've cognitively boxed yourself into a point where you can not imagine witch hunters working in any way contrary to your personal take, and are unwilling to allow for unorthodox ideas to shape your thinking. I don't think that's a helpful attitude.

Quote
As for the value of my suggestion: they are a highly mobile, hard hitting unit that can take out vampires/daemons/wizards with ease. You know, what witch hunters are supposed to do?

How are these guys mobile? They are movement four foot sloggers who can't declare flee reactions. I also fail to see their unique utility at slaying daemons and the undead. They are also soundly outclassed by flagellants at this particular role. What they do on the battlefield is pretty much already taken care of by the various other units in the Empire armylist. The last thing we need is redundancy.

Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 07:36:00 AM »

Guys, agree to disagree.


This is turning into a kindergarten argument
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Offline patsy02

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2009, 11:50:11 AM »
Well, for witch hunter fluff I generally go with the Mordheim rulebook, and under their description that is what they are called. Here, have a look:

http://mordheimer.com/warbands/official/witch_hunters.htm

Or, if you don't want to read it there, then I'll just quote it.

"Witch Hunters are charismatic rabble-rousers who can soon turn a crown to their own ends. They are universally dreaded, for everyone has something or someone to hide."

Now, there are always going to be individual differnces. Mathias Thullman (a black library collection of books) shows him as being more sinister than charasmatic, but he does have his moments of working a crowd. He also never operates covertly. He shows off his station with style and seems to enjoy the fear/apprehension that his precence can cause. By the way, this is all official fluff, not just "how I imagine it."
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Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2009, 03:56:42 PM »
I agree with Ganymede here.

I imagine Witch hunters as being assassin-like characters. And on the subject of being easy to spot in a unit, well they can always take off the hat, can't they? Dark Elf Assassins aren't exactly inconspicious with their hooded cloaks.

Grumbaki has some valid arguments, but this section is not about fluff, it is about game mechanics, we don't need another WP.
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Offline Grumbaki

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2009, 01:34:55 AM »
I was going to write an angry response...but what's the point? So I walked away from the computer and put things in perspective. We are arguing about rules for a non-existant character, so it's not worth getting to upset over. I guess in the end you like your assassin witch hunter and I'd rather follow the fluff more literally, even if the end result is less fun/useful. So, let's agree to disagree and call it a day.  :icon_biggrin:
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Offline IsThisIt

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2009, 05:49:21 AM »
I've got a great idea:

Something like ...WS 4 S 4 T 4 W 1 I 4 A 2 LD 9 3+ SV.

This guy should be a core choice.  We could put him in really good armor (powerful armor?) that should never be made available to entire squads of basic troopers because it will result in every army fielding ridiculous amounts of high strength powerful weapons. 

We should give him a bunch of absurd special rules, and then in each new addition, add a few more, while removing none.  We could make them immune to fear ... but able to flee whenever they want.  We should make them equally good close combat and shooting troops.  In fact, let's just take out the player entirely and just have each Space- I mean Witch Hunter roll a die for every enemy on the board.  On a 2-6 that enemy dies.  Re-roll 1's. 

And we shall call them ... space hunters. 

Offline Grumbaki

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2009, 01:48:55 AM »
Best idea so far. As long as they have power-hats, things should work out just fine.
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Offline Folken

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2009, 04:40:38 AM »
Sorry guys, just I see the witch hunter as a type of captain.  He is a warrior that focuses on Chaos entities and undead.  Just like a greenskin hunter would be one that hunts orcs and goblins and a beastslayer would be one that hunts BoC and ratslayer.... you can see where I am going with this? It is more an aspect of theme rather then a change in the statline or abilities.

Offline Ganymede

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2009, 01:04:46 AM »
Don't you think that the whole "A witch hunter is merely a captain who kills witches" is a little overly simplistic?

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2009, 08:59:24 AM »
Actually I like the idea of a special militia leader. +30 point unit upgrade, cannot leave that unit.

WS4 BS4 S4 T4  W2 I4 A2 Ld8

Weapons: Sword and pistol, both count as magical for wounding ethereal creatures. Light armour.

Immune to psychology, hates Chaos and Undead and confers those abilities on his unit.
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Offline Hurin Thalion

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Re: Newly Imagined Witch Hunter and Captain
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2009, 02:35:48 PM »
Now, what can Witch Hunters do then? I see two options:

1) Huners
2) Oraters

Make them Huners! Make them Huners! Wait a minute... what's a huner?! :happy:
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