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Author Topic: Army Book: General of the Empire  (Read 7427 times)

Offline kk14

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Army Book: General of the Empire
« on: February 18, 2010, 08:57:15 AM »
General of the Empire

Same as before, 80 points.

Change: Family Heirloom.
If the General of the Empire is your army's General, State Troops in the army may take magic standards costing up to 50 points. The total number of points spent on magic standards in this way may not exceed 60.

Add: Elector Count.
For 120 points, the General may be upgraded to an Elector Count. His magic item allowance drops to 75, and he may not take magic weapons that are not bows. Add 'Runefang' (as the magic weapon) to his equipment list.

Add: Veteran General
For 35 points, the General of the Empire's Command Radius expands to 15".  Detachments for a unit of state troops the General joins count as being within 3" of their parent unit at all times.

I'm unsure of the last two additions.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 10:38:38 PM by kk14 »
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 10:19:35 AM »
I like the elector count.

I am unsure about the always in 3" as it opens the door to tricky combos

Greatswords with two 10 strong units of handgunners that give stand and shoot from 24 inch away.

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 05:07:31 PM »
so long as the options are not mutually exclusive and you could theoretically take a veteran elector count.  This is good there were some other things I wanted to chirp in about but this will do for now.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 04:16:00 AM »
Good ideas here, however here are my thoughts:

Quote
General of the Empire
Same as before, 80 points.

Change: Family Heirloom.
If the General of the Empire is your army's General, State Troops in the army may take magic standards costing up to 50 points. The total number of points spent on magic standards in this way may not exceed 60.

Total cost does not matter, can only have so many units of infantry anyway.

Quote
Add: Elector Count.
For 120 points, the General may be upgraded to an Elector Count. His magic item allowance drops to 75, and he may not take magic weapons that are not bows. Add 'Runefang' (as the magic weapon) to his equipment list.

Too cheap. Should be 150pts with Runefang, and has 50pts worth of magic item allowance.

Quote
Add: Veteran General
For 35 points, the General of the Empire's Command Radius expands to 15".  Detachments for a unit of state troops the General joins count as being within 3" of their parent unit at all times.

I say for 30pts out to 18", and don't worry about the detachment buff.

And I also say you can't have a veteran Elector. Besides, that would basically be Karl Franz anyway - keeps him unique by being a combination of the two.
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 07:21:10 AM »
As the Elector only has 3 attacks with Ws 5 I donīt think that he is too cheap with 120 points as there is no way he gets hatred he only hits 1,5 attacks each turn. That those attacks autowound and ignore armour isnīt THAT great of a treat if you think about chaos lords that have 5 attacks with S 7 (-4 to armour).

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 07:56:25 AM »
I'd make it so you can combine the two this would allow for KF builds, Magnus the pious builds, Otto the bent builds, etc, Who's to say which of the emperor's you wish to play with or for that matter which of the elector counts you wish to play.  Allow a combination and keep magic items at 75, after all a vamp or dwarf can effectively get 200 points of character buffs, there are all kinds of ways to justify it but I'll settle for "just cuz" for right now.



"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 09:36:53 AM »
Well the overall question always reappears, shall we adjust the empire army book to be 6th edition armies conform or 7th editions armies conform?

I think kk14 you are stuck at 6th edition power levels and therefore try to balance the list around the overall army strength of that edition 7th edition a 3 A lord choice even with a no wound roll and no armour saves is not really THAT incredible. (especially if you look at the rest of his profile).

Offline kk14

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 07:30:53 PM »
Note: you CAN have hatred on an elector count, and other re-roll to hits. Warrior Priests and the lore of heavens, for example.

2 Autowounds a turn is pretty equivalent to your Chaos lord trying to hit a dawn-armoured or AMI hero/lord.

I am just afraid that 18" is too much. That said, it would provide the incentive to take him.  I am seriously considering dropping this option anyways, because it becomes a shoe-in. For 30 points there is no reason not to take it.

I was considering making them incompatible, but am still undecided. It makes sense to me that an Elector Count can also be a veteran general.

I am still hung up on the point values for the Runefang. I agree that 75 points of items is too much, but feel that 150 is the maximum limit to pay for the ability. I am leaning towards a compromise of 120 points for the Elector Count upgrade, and 50 points of items.
If you can't convince the voters to accept your view, and you take to the gun, you are by definition anti-American.

Veni, Vidi, domum meum redire volo.

Offline Davido

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 12:32:14 AM »
hatred from warrior priests doesn't affect characters, nor should it. The spells don't really count as the enemy gets a chance to dispell.

Also the elector count is the richest guy in the state why wouldn't he have more magic goodies.
Yay my rocket battery finally killed something.What do you mean those are my halberdiers.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2010, 06:21:39 AM »
Well ....again what role should the General fill in. I would like to see him as the best possible leadership source and granting his Ld in 18" is a great improvement but not broken it is still "only" Ld of 9. Perhaps also decrease the LD bubble for the AL to 6" because he is not THAT great of a leader of men.

If the EC is more than 150 points with less magical items I would never upgrade him and just use the General.

Offline kk14

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2010, 09:00:34 AM »
I playtested it the other day, and although he died, the Elector Count seemed fair at 120/50. I think that's where he'll stay.

About the 'Veteran General' upgrade. It is just never worth not taking, as is. I want people to weigh the ability every time they make a list. As is, it's a shoe-in. Any suggestions? It doesn't need to be weaker, just a harder choice.

What if the Veteran General upgrade was only 20 points, but reduced the Empire General's magic item allowance by 25?
If you can't convince the voters to accept your view, and you take to the gun, you are by definition anti-American.

Veni, Vidi, domum meum redire volo.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2010, 10:07:19 AM »
Perhaps make the 18" for state troopers only?

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2010, 04:04:44 PM »
sure if the elector count option on it's own was set at 75magic item points and making him a veteran reduced those points available to him to 50 that would be a tough trade off choice.  It also would make for fluffier decisions made. 

Before you go reducing the magic item allocations of the generals keep in mind that our competition has got usually twice the allocation level we do, as well as the usual character special mount options.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2010, 04:06:48 PM »
Oh yeah lets give the General the option to the Robo horse  :engel:

Offline kk14

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2010, 05:59:59 PM »
Yeah, sadly DH is right.
The reason the Elector count upgrade is at 120 points and allows 50 points of items is that more than 50 points of items starts to allows some nasty combos (i.e. Laurels of Victory), which I wasn't quite prepared to allow.

About the 18" Ld.
I also thought about the 18" applying only to state troops, but figured that that was too finicky/complicated to work out in-game. (i.e. keeping track of who needs to be w/in 12 and who needs to be within 18). That said, I think it remains on the table.

Is 20 points for 15" reasonable? That would make the command radius a whole lot less juicy, and hopefully less of a shoe-in. I don't like this option that much, though, so any suggestions are appreciated.
If you can't convince the voters to accept your view, and you take to the gun, you are by definition anti-American.

Veni, Vidi, domum meum redire volo.

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2010, 10:50:17 PM »
ummm so what about nasty combos, :icon_confused: that's what special characters are used for,  and a GOTE should BE that kind of persona for our armies.  120 +75 I say as rote then -20 item points for vet upgrade.  just be glad I'm not haggling for 120 + 100 cuz that's what demons, dwarves, dark elves, and vamp counts get, probably others too, since I haven't bothered to keep totally up to date on the latest army lists.

Be prepared to allow it and quit letting you lip quiver shoot it's like those silly buggers that take offense at the Canadian "own the podium" campaign as though we as empire should be meek and mild and happy that we're allowed to play at all against the demonic players.  "BAH" I say.

oh and leave it at the current proposed 18 command range and points.  some cheapskate or fluffy minded players will choose not to take a vet general.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline red bull

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2010, 05:30:34 PM »
but could you then get 2 of the same type?

the old rules for valmir von raukov were runefang, and 3 shots with a dragon bow

so could you get multiple dragon bows, so as to recreate that?

because surely then you could just get 3 dragon bows,             total cost is 195

                                                                   ...85 points cheaper than the old one
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 05:34:20 PM by red bull »
No matter how good a general you are; if the dice are against you, you will not win.

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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2010, 06:12:27 PM »
I think the current dragon bow is 25 points s6 range 36 and d3 wounds. Multiples of any magic item are not allowed unless you are fighting with an ally who has the same item in their list, barring obvious things like power stones and dispell scrolls.  Beyond that I'm not sure I understand the context of your question. 

     With the new proposal for an elector count upgrade he'd have what we proposed above including the command range extension and runefang but with 75 spare magic item points to customise him for a particular province or city state.  A veteran elector count would go beyond what a mere elector count was and a basic GotE would be just that, "basic".
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2010, 08:29:35 PM »
No, the Dragon Bow only has range 36 and strength 6. If it did have D3 wounds then it almost might be worth it.

Having multiple shots equal to the attack characteristic of the wielder would make it worth it, because hitting on 2s or 3s with a strength 6 bow from across the table with no threat of retaliation would be a very good thing indeed.
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2010, 04:42:31 AM »
well they nerfed it more than I thought.  They had it at 3 shots in the last edition at 30 points, I figured a 5 point drop and making it d3 made sense, now it makes no sense.  My rule is better.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline HighlandBrigand7

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2010, 07:28:44 PM »
Can you arem your general, lets say with a hochland long rifle? or a a repeater rifle? and if so, can he use those rifles for a.) all three of his attacks, or b.) let say a stand and shoot, and then use the other 2 attacks once close combat is reached.

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: Army Book: General of the Empire
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2010, 06:40:31 AM »
No, you can arm him with a handgun, or a pistol, and he can stand and shoot, but then he fights normally in combat.
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian