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Author Topic: The Colleges of Magic  (Read 13925 times)

Offline EccentricCircle

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The Colleges of Magic
« on: August 27, 2017, 03:55:17 PM »
Hello!
This is my first post. I've visited the forum on and off in the past, but now I have a question which some of you might be able to answer. I hope that this is in the right part of the forum.

My current warhammer painting project is a council of mages representing the different colleges and lores of magic. Over the last few months i've tracked down a few of the older figures, however the catalogues and collectors guides available online can only get me so far, so I want to ask people who have been collecting warhammer for longer, whether there are any good models which I might not have come across.

So far I've mainly been looking for the figures in the 2003 empire collectors guide. This lists eight styles of mage, each on foot and on horseback, which were the "classic range". I know that there was a plastic version of most of these types as part of the Talisman game. The collectors guide also has three types of wizard which were current in 2003.

There's then a bit of a large time jump between them, and the customisable plastic wizards which GW sell today. I didn't collect fantasy during that period, as I was mainly interested in the LOTR models at the time. So don't have a clear idea of what was released.

So I basically have three questions.
1) Was there ever a plastic Necromancer/Amethyst Wizard for Talisman, as all the other lores of magic seem to be represented but I can't find any evidence of Shyish?
2) When was the current plastic battle wizards set released, and were there any cool wizard figures between the ones in the 2003 collectors guide and then?
3) Are the 2003 wizards supposed to reflect specific colleges, or were they just three types of generic wizard who could be painted to fit any order (as the empire army book would seem to suggest)?

Any suggestions are welcome. I'd be interested to see how you folks have painted your mages, as i'm currently tinkering with colour schemes for mine!
Many thanks
EC

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2017, 04:24:49 PM »
There was a wizard figure that if I recall correctly was a necromancer from the Mordheim line.
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Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2017, 05:55:15 PM »
Do you know of the CCM wiki?

This may help as a reference for Talisman:

http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Talisman


Offline Oxycutor

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2017, 06:45:04 PM »
As far as I remember there was:-

A vast array of wierd and wonderful wizards from 3rd edition

http://www.solegends.com/citcat1988/cat1988p075-02.htm


A mounted and on foot wizard that came out around the time of the first empire Templar knights
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1989mo/c1989mop0066-01.htm


The 8 on foot and mounted metals form 4th edition
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1992/cat1992p357empwizard-01.htm


The 7 plastic Talisman versions of the 4th ed metals
http://www.solegends.com/cittal3/index.htm

The 3(6) on foot and mounted metals fromo 6th edition
http://www.solegends.com/citcat2004us/c2004usp0609-02.htm


The limited edition metal Bright Wizard
http://www.solegends.com/citle2000/armyboxes/36empwiz/index.htm


Then the multi-part plastics for 7th edition, recently re-bundled as a 4-man box for Age of Sigmar.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Empire-Battle-Wizards


For the 8th Ed Empire army book, there was a Finecast Amber wizard, (now OOP)


And the Amber Wizard on two-headed Griffon
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Amber-Battle-Wizard-on-Imperial-Griffon


1).  No, I don't think there was a Necromancer/Amethyst Wizard for Talisman, not in plastic anyway.  I think there was a Neceromancer, but in the style of the 4th ed Undead army necromancers

2).  Only the limited Bright Wizard that I can think of

3).  They were generic, but obviously each was styled toward one or two of the colleges

The Brush And Palette section has some collection threads pinned which are dedicated to threads on different Empire types, Although, many pictures might no longer be viewable thanks to Photobucket.

This is the collective thread for the various types
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=40574.0

And these are the wizard threads
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=41195.0
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=30294.msg429480#msg429480
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 06:47:57 PM by Oxycutor »

Offline EccentricCircle

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2017, 07:36:39 PM »
Wow, That's an awesomely comprehensive answer! Thank you.
Looks like I have most of the more recent ones (including the finecast amber wizard and the really cool fire wizard actually!). Unsurprisingly I don't have so many of the older ones, although it would be cool to try to track down a few of them. I certainly didn't know there were that many 3rd edition variations!
Thanks for the links to the gallery threads, that's given me lots of ideas of how to paint my colleges, I think I need to brush up on my firepainting skills for a start.

Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2017, 08:10:32 PM »
Yep! 👆I think I just learned more about them than in 12 years lol
Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017 Simple, You gut the bastard with your sword, the viking way.
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Offline Midaski

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2017, 08:35:45 PM »
and don't forget Gandolf Nicodemus from Mordheim ...................



Quote from: Gneisenau
Quote
Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

You mean they will be using Ouija boards instead of Tarot cards for their business plans from now on?

Offline EccentricCircle

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2017, 08:57:54 PM »
The take home message seems to be there are vastly more awesome models than I realised. Whats most interesting is that this is turning into a little side jaunt into the various other games that GW have made over the years. I didn't even know anything about talisman until I stumbled across the amber wizard from that line, and was surprised that he was plastic rather than metal. Those mordheim models are very cool, even if many of them seem to be ridiculously expensive these days!

Looking at all these I wonder how the colleges of magic, as a concept, evolved. It almost looks as though they might have designed a druid, a shaman, an egyptian-ish wizard, a Gandalf knockoff and so on, and then codified the colleges around them.

Offline Oxycutor

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2017, 10:07:50 PM »
The Mordheim beast hunter could be used as an Amber Wizard.  And as well as Nicodemus, there was a non-college Warlock hired sword.

Oh, and if you get the Albion Giants, Hengus the druid could easily make a Jade Wizard.

As for the origins, I think it's as far back as Old White Dwarf 112.   Dark Magic didn't exist then, after splitting from High magic it becomes the  winds, and then into rainbow magic, and not back into dark magic,

Also, the Amethyst college, wasn't to do with Death, but I can't remember what it did have.

I think it was just a way to add more variety to styles of magic, and may be influenced by the 8th colour Octarine from The Colour of Magic, by Terry Pratchett.  I don't know whether they were both around that time.  At least the idea of colours of magic.   I think it was later in 4th edition that colour magic was replaced with colleges/Winds of magic, and I think even up to 6th before they were known as Lores.   I do think the original article had most of the names though, that we now know more from the realms in Age of Sigmar

Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2017, 10:44:12 PM »
Quote EC :  The Colour of Magic, by Terry Pratchett.

That did it! Another Pratchett fan. Your going to fit in nice. Check out JAK's discworld thread in the brush & pallet. You will be blown of your feet.  I guarantee it.
Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017 Simple, You gut the bastard with your sword, the viking way.
Questions?


GP Jan 4, 2020
Yes, even W:AoS.

Offline Oxycutor

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2017, 11:31:46 PM »
Ah, yes, I love JAK's work. 

Offline Naitsabes

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2017, 04:47:41 AM »
wow, Oxycutor! A+ for scholarship.  :::cheers:::

as a tiny addition:

- the hurricanum/luminark comes with wizard looking guys as well...although technically I guess they are just acolytes.
- there is also Volan, the original Patriarch of the Colleges (4th edition special character) EDIT: oops. only his staff. the guy had a different name.
- and Baltasar Gelt on his Pegasus, his successor (6th edition...or was it 7th)

hmm, collecting all the wizards of the Empire would be quite a project!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 03:59:21 PM by Naitsabes »
The Empire Road to Volganof Last update 18Mar2023 - Pistoliers & Baggage train)

Offline EccentricCircle

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2017, 08:37:33 AM »
I'm going to have a hurricanum as my centre piece, Its such an amazing model, and as one of my friends commented when I showed him the kit, it potentially gives us a fair bit of information about the solar system of the warhammer world.

With regards discworld similarities, The Colour of Magic was published around the same time that Warhammer Fantasy was first released, so they definitely emerged from the same zeitgeist in the fantasy genre, even if there isn't a direct causal link between some of the similarities.

Offline Midaski

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2017, 10:46:04 AM »
If I recall my Warhammer history correctly, the Empire had basic lores and there were hedge wizards for example.
Then along came Teclis and the College of Magic was founded.

rufus did some lores for simple old type wizards in the rules he wrote for our campaigns.

Quote
General rules:
Wizards:
No army may use Wizard Lords. All armies are limited in the number of wizards they may take, and in the lores and magic items they may have.

There are no Colleges of Magic in 2146. There are however significant numbers of hedge wizards, warlocks, necromancers and demonologists, and some of these are employed by the three factions. The Church of Sigmar recruited a handful of Sanctioned Warlocks during the Vampire Wars – they are deemed dangerous but essential tools in the fight against evil, since fire must be fought with fire. Middenland has the Magician’s Guild of Middenheim, which produces an elite cadre of Illusionist mages that are they keystone of the province’s spy network. Talabecland does not use wizards as such, but especially powerful priests of Taal, who evoke the fury of the wild against their enemies.

Quote from: Gneisenau
Quote
Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

You mean they will be using Ouija boards instead of Tarot cards for their business plans from now on?

Offline Warlord

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2017, 01:32:16 PM »
Some extras are:

Thyruss Gormann
Mordhiem necromancer (check the vampire range for necromancers too)
There was a Mordhiem Hedge Witch
The light wizard acolytes from 4th edition

There were more that those in the picture above from the 4th/5th edition metal wizards - one for each of the orders.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Oxycutor

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2017, 06:10:40 PM »
wow, Oxycutor! A+ for scholarship.  :::cheers:::

as a tiny addition:

- the hurricanum/luminark comes with wizard looking guys as well...although technically I guess they are just acolytes.
- there is also Volan, the original Patriarch of the Colleges (4th edition special character) EDIT: oops. only his staff. the guy had a different name.
- and Baltasar Gelt on his Pegasus, his successor (6th edition...or was it 7th)

hmm, collecting all the wizards of the Empire would be quite a project!

Thyrus Gormann was the old Supreme Patriarch before Balthazar Gelt.   And, I'm disappointed in myself that I forgot those

Offline Oxycutor

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2017, 06:13:38 PM »
Some extras are:

Thyruss Gormann
Mordhiem necromancer (check the vampire range for necromancers too)
There was a Mordhiem Hedge Witch
The light wizard acolytes from 4th edition

There were more that those in the picture above from the 4th/5th edition metal wizards - one for each of the orders.

Yes, 8 on foot and 8 on horse, though the one horse version pretty much matched the on foot version. I could have gone looking for a picture of the rest, but I couldn't be bothered.

Offline scrubber

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2017, 09:45:09 PM »
Hope this link should take you to the Talisman wizards.
http://www.talismanisland.com/?page_id=3214

Offline EccentricCircle

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2017, 12:20:57 PM »
So rather than just ogling model wizards on ebay I figured I should kick off the project by putting pen to paper (virtually speaking anyway):

The Great Hall of the Colleges of Magic echoed with the clamour of voices and the shuffling of robes. Mages crowded into the vaulted octagonal space, each trying to get as near to the podium as possible while simultaneously staying as far from their rivals as they could. It was an uphill battle, but the gathered wizards were trained to manipulate impossible geometries, so they were giving it their best shot. The air hummed with magical potential, sparks crackled around gnarled staffs, occasionally grounding themselves in small flashes of greenish-purple light. The bitter tang of sorcery could be tasted in the air. Wizards who would normally be decked in shimmering robes of illusory fire on such an occasion hurriedly dispelled some of their flashier charms when they saw just how twisted the winds of magic were becoming in the room.
Such a gathering of wizards wasn’t unprecedented per se, but it was still far from usual. The energies they had inadvertently brought with them, while mostly harmless in and of themselves, were known to combine in interesting ways. Just beyond the fabric of reality, squamous things writhed and chittered, gazing longingly across the imperceptibly thin barrier that separated their reality from that of the gathered wizards. Deep within the Realm of Chaos a twisted, alien mind looked up from thrashing itself at poker, and wondered whether it was invited.
The cacophony showed no sign of abating, as the shouted greetings and sarcastic taunts of the assembled mages echoed from the marble walls.
“Order! Order!” Balthasar Gelt shouted from the podium, banging the iron shod tip of his staff against the floor. Its erupted with a shower of gold sparks, which made a few of the closer wizards back hurriedly away.
“ORDER!” the Supreme Patriarch yelled.
“Chaos” Someone muttered in the crowd, precipitating a wave of stifled chuckles and accusatory glares.
“Who said that?” the patriarch snarled. It was technically impossible to glare from behind an inanimate golden mask, but years of wrangling wizards had taught the master of the arcane colleges to do many impossible things. His eyes flicked from one side of the room to another, as everyone there present tried to make it abundantly clear that they weren’t the offending heckler.
“Can we get on with this?” Thryus Gormann barked from the slightly singed corner where the wizards of the Bright Order had clustered. “Chaos is what we’re here to discuss after all?”
“Indeed it is” the patriarch snapped. The room gradually fell silent as the import of his words percolated through the crowd. As the last exclamations of surprise faded away he continued.
“The reason I have summoned you all here to today is to discuss a matter of substantial importance to our orders.” He cleared his throat, glancing around the room to make sure that he finally had everyone’s attention.
“Thaddeus Malik, magister of the amethyst order, and our erstwhile colleague, stands accused of falling to Chaos, and consorting with dark powers for fell purposes.”
The room erupted with cries of disbelief and consternation. Suddenly everyone was talking at once.
“That’s a pretty serious accusation!” Heinrich Richter of the Grey Order yelled, stating the bleeding obvious as was his want.
His cry was echoed around the room, as other mages expressed their opinions for or against the accused. Soon everyone was struggling to shout over the echoes of their own voices. Galt Raised his staff again, preparing another firework to draw attention back to the podium, but before he could cast the spell a sudden, unexpected hush settled over the room.
“Well I never liked him!” an amethyst acolyte accidentally shouted into the silence. He looked around sheepishly as Gerhard Geist, the master of his order stepped onto the podium instantly commanding the attention of all in the room.
“That, Master Hornwood, is because he once gave you a D- in thaumaturgy” the master of the college of death rasped as he stepped up to confront the Supreme Patriarch. “However those of us without petty grievances to air might be inclined to ask for slightly more proof?”
He scanned the room theatrically, his black and purple robes billowing in a nonexistent wind. The scythe blade on the end of his staff suddenly looked very sharp.
“Is the accused going to have an opportunity to defend himself?” he asked.
Gelt somehow managed to frown through his mask. Fixing Geist with a glare which actually made the amethyst wizard flinch.
“Since he murdered an entire village and left the corpses strewn in the symbol of the Great Sorcerer,” the Supreme Patriarch explained “we surprisingly chose not to invite him back here to speak on his own behalf.”
“Several eye witnesses confirm he did it” Gormann added. “He’s guilty, and the inquisition wants his head, or what’s left of it after they skewer him.”
“If he murdered everyone, how are there eye witnesses?” someone muttered, but they were quickly drowned out in the susurrus of agreement that ran through the room.
“Send the witch hunters after him!” someone yelled.
“Quite right too!” another barked
“Yes, can’t go around murdering people, something must be done” echoed through the din.
“Quite” Galt said, “Something must, indeed, be done, which is why I am sending as many of you as can be spared to track down the rogue mage and kill him.”
“I said something must be done!” a rather portly gold wizard replied, “not that we should do it!”
“Hmm, yes” an astromancer chipped in. “I hardly think, archchancellor that we should interrupt our studies to go roaming around the countryside looking for a murderer! This sort of thing is what witch hunters are for after all.”
“Tell them about the scrolls Galt!” Gormann shouted, the tips of his moustache smoking slightly.
“Yes, I’m getting to that.” Galt said. “It seems master Malik purloined a number of arcane treatises from our vaults before his, err, indiscretions began.”
He fixed the dissenters with a golden glare. “We could leave Malik’s capture to the witch hunters certainly, but they are not known for their discretion. Anything they discover on his person when they catch him will be consigned to the flames including our irreplaceable scrolls. It is therefore vital that we find him first.”
There was a grudging murmur of assent from the assembled wizards.
“I am thus offering a reward of twenty pounds of wyrdstone to any wizard who can bring back Malik’s possessions, and optionally his head.” Galt declared.
There were a few grunts of interest from different corners of the room. But most of the mages were still looking askance at their illustrious leader.
“That’s all very well” Richter said. “But the reward must be commensurate to the task.” He looked around the room, where a few of his cronies were nodding their agreement. “What I mean to say is… well… necromancers are f-ing terrifying, even before they turn to Chaos!” He glanced up at the cadaverous face of magister Giest. “No offense…”
“None taken” the necromancer hissed, “It is a deliberate affectation.”
“A better reward!” one of the younger acolytes shouted.
“Yes, pray sweeten the deal” the astromancer chipped in.
“Fine!” Galt shouted. “Thirty pounds of wyrdstone, and the college that succeeds in killing the renegade will have…” he paused racking his brains for something that would persuade the old dolts to actually leave the building.
“Free banquets for a month!” the portly gold wizard declared.
There were cheers of assent from many of the assembled mages.
“Agreed!” Galt declared. “Free banquets for a month! Now pray split into teams and scour the countryside. In the time we’ve spent arguing about this the witch hunters might already have picked up his trail.”
“Ha!” an elderly wizard laughed as everyone around him tried to exit the room at once. “You whippersnappers don’t know you’re born. In my day meetings like this could take months and months! We’d never have done any of this newfangled agreeing…”

Offline scrubber

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2017, 04:13:02 PM »
Yet more wizards.



Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2017, 04:58:53 PM »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline EccentricCircle

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2017, 05:11:05 PM »
Wow, I think most of those had been mentioned up thread, but its nice to get the pictures collected.
There must presumably be a finite number, even if that number is quite large.

What is notably lacking though are female wizards. I'm not sure whether canon supports there being women members of the arcane colleges or not, but I will probably want a few ladies in my army regardless. (Army doesn't really seem the right word for a group of wizards though, taskforce? ramble? or argument perhaps?). I've got a couple of Bretonnian sorceresses already, so they can come. I think I'll take a look at the Reaper catalogues and see if I can find a cool female mini that fits the theme of each of the colleges. They seem to have a figure for everything, but I suspect some colleges will be easier to fill than others...

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2017, 06:47:14 PM »
WFRP 2 Realms of Sorcery p. 76:

While there are no specific laws stating females are not admitted into the Colleges, thence into the Orders of magic, it cannot be denied that it is a rare occurrence. Some scholars who are given to ponder such things speculate peasants and the like are quicker to burn those women who do show some Aethyric ability. Likewise, some claim women do not possess the sensibilities to mould magic, or concentrate on their study long enough to gain the necessary languages, skills, and knowledge required to shape spells. While the former claim has more than a grain of truth to it, the latter is complete nonsense. Aethyric ability makes no distinction between the genders—indeed the Bright Order has a long outstanding prophecy of a female Battle Wizard without peer and is eagerly awaiting her arrival.

Female Wizards seem to gravitate towards certain types of magic—the Jade and Amber Orders being the most common—though this is by no means a hard and fast rule. Generally speaking, most colleges have little or no provision to accommodate women on their premises, meaning those few females apprentices are often given board in some long forgotten room or out of the way dormitory hastily converted to their needs. As those women that do gain entrance to the Colleges are often of noble or moneyed families, (who can afford the fees but not the scandal) they are not usually treated with any contempt, rather a cautious brand of confusion. Many College folk attempt to ignore the Apprentice’s gender, hoping a serving woman or housemistress will deal with the delicate matters of clothing sizes, medicines and other such “women’s business.”

As a side note, it is worth noting several colleges have quite formidable and terrifying matrons dictating the domestic arrangements. While they have no magical powers, their abilities to manipulate Wizard Lords, remove stains, and feed veritable armies of picky spellcasters does border on
the supernatural."

According to the same source (p. 103), there is currently even a "Matriarch Magister": Tochter Grünfeld (Jade College).
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Oxycutor

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2017, 07:46:20 PM »
I'd also perhaps point out, that the colleges are separate institutions and building spread throughout Altdorf and the surrounding area, rather than a single campus, with a great hall.

Offline Il Condottiero

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Re: The Colleges of Magic
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2017, 11:32:41 PM »
There is also the case of the Amethyst wizardess Elspeth von Draken, Magisterix and arch-wizard.

I don't think she was ever described as a 'Matriarch', but it does sound that she has more than enough power to rule over the Amethyst Order.
Seeee todo este ouro... for MEU!