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Author Topic: How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'  (Read 2168 times)

ptolpa

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« on: January 13, 2005, 08:57:59 PM »
First point: This is not about Empire. This is about Wood Elves and the Ogre Kingdoms. But it is about Warhammer, and for anyone who wants to play against Wood Elves some time.


Is it just me or does the Ogre Kingdoms Army Book spell the end of the Wood Elves?

I don't play Wood Elves. Actually, I have never met them on the field of battle. Maybe that is the problem. Wood Elves seem to be a little like Chaos Dwarves: great in concept but not popular enough to warrant support. Support in terms of an Army Book, new models and plastic kits. Now, I don't criticise GW for making a decision based on the profitability of a product line, but could they at least they could be a bit more open about when they intend to ‘shaft’ the Wood Elves?

The situation is ironic. I am sure a lot of people suspected Wood Elves were at risk: they have languished for so long. But then they had a chance for glory in the latest worldwide, online campaign. Wood Elves completely and unexpectedly kicked butt during the Storm of Chaos (aside: where is the follow up to that? 5 months after!?! Newspapers get stuff out the next day, White Dwarf needs a five-month lead time?!?). Maybe you can imagine the scene in GW Headquarters, Nottingham, just after SoC concludes:

Playtester A: "Well, we thought the remaining few Wood Elves generals would have got the hint that we don't want them around and allowed themselves to be violently swamped by the newly energised Beastmen generals, with their cool new book and characters and models. Then we could have written out their demise from the game"

Playtester B: "Maybe that 4-page summary of the WE army in White Dwarf prior to the Storm gave them hope"

Playtester A: "It was meant to be false hope!"

Content Developer C: "Maybe we can nuke the Loren Forest with a Warpstone comet or something"

Accountant D testily shuffles the agenda. Point 3B (ii) is about depreciation charges on plastic moulding machinery, not the so-called ‘Wood Elves’: "You failed to read the discussion paper I presented to the Creative Management Committee. The so-called "Wood Elves Generals" (gentle smirk) represent a demographic important to GW LLP. This social subgroup tend to represent mid 20s - early 30s players with significant spending capability and a dedication beyond those more easily diverted younger players with their numerous spending options such as (rolled eyes) 'video games'".

Content Developer C: "They are called PC games or maybe computer games these days, and I thought that was why we did Fire Warrior and Dawn of War. And we did the comet with Mordheim"

Accountant D (slightly peeved and slightly more testy): "If you had reviewed your monthly P&L report you would have seen our RoI on the so-called 'Wood Elves' product lines 80100 through 80500 was below our cost of capital, i.e. 26%. We have shareholders to consider here! Now these ‘Wood Elves Generals’ are a bit older than most players and have disposable income, so we present them with a new product of so-called ‘giant, ugly killing machines’, the 'Ogre'. That gets the younger 12-15 year demographic excited, especially with the success of Shrek (Copyright, TM, all rights reserved by Misc. Lge. Entertainment Corp Ltd.), and the opportunity for the older, 'high-spend' demographic a chance to buy plastic toy models (slight smirk) at a mark-up of over 800%! Do you know what will do to our stock options! And it pays for you Content Developers to spend your time dreaming of an Eastern, so-called ‘Cathay’ range as well. I know you want to”

Playtester A: “Well, whatever, I have to write copy for the Skaven victories in SoC and I only have five months left to do it!”


Fantasy? You be the judge. But look at the facts: Wood Elves featured in the 6th Edition Warhammer Rulebook, page 185. But the Ogre Kingdoms Army book and cool looking plastic kits have been released, with no sign of the Wood Elves in sight.

I think the Wood Elves been shafted.


Offline LizardKing

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2005, 09:06:13 PM »
and I think there may be a lock coming this way.......
-kill 'em all, let ULRIC sort 'em out

Offline queek

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2005, 09:35:50 PM »
yes, there is.

Offline Grutch

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2005, 05:15:11 AM »
Ptolpa,

I have considered the email you have written and offered up a compromise.  This is actually where you should have placed this off topic post.

Welcome to the site.

-Grutch

Offline Kernschatten

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Re: How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2005, 05:27:47 AM »
Quote from: ptolpa
Is it just me or does the Ogre Kingdoms Army Book spell the end of the Wood Elves?....
....But look at the facts: Wood Elves featured in the 6th Edition Warhammer Rulebook, page 185. But the Ogre Kingdoms Army book and cool looking plastic kits have been released, with no sign of the Wood Elves in sight.

Anthony Reynolds has been quoted as saying that a totally revamped WE Army (book, models, etc) is scheduled for release during the 2nd half of 2005. The UK WD 301 supposedly has comments regarding a new cavalry choice for WE as well.

Edit: Oh yeah, welcome aboard!
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Offline Elkwyn

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2005, 05:40:47 AM »
I play Wood Elves and over at Machiara's Battle Glade our own projections for the army book went from April 2003 to June 2004 then to July 2005 and then to April 2006.  So really, the Wood Elves aren't expecting anything to be on schedule.
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Offline Lord Etharion

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2005, 05:47:06 AM »
See, here's my problem with this logic: Don't wood elves have an armylist? a really strong one? So you miss out (for a little longer) on pretty pictures in the army book, and a new range of models. Except the people who complain most bitterly are the ones who already have WE armies. So who misses out? Noone that I can see, except those of us foolist enough to post inflammatory comments on threads like this one (I'm so clever :roll:).
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Offline Polymphus

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2005, 05:47:17 AM »
Yay! we can talk about this without Limpbizkutretard going on about WE having gone the way of the squat and how they should have been chaos elves anyway...yay!
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Offline RGB

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2005, 07:01:25 AM »
What we WE players (well, ex-WE players) miss is the dignity. There's no dignity in a pdf when everyone else has a shiny arrmy book and a nice plastic core model line.

I'd lvoe to see WE back again. And OK, I dunno they didn't seem necessary to me. I'd much rather have had a rel Kislev list.

Cheers.
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Offline Grutch

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2005, 07:33:40 AM »
One rumor I heard was that OK was pushed up as the next army because it allowed for the development team to work out a new production process.  This means the upcoming woodelf production will be worth the wait.

-Grutch

Offline BAWTRM

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2005, 10:24:58 AM »
I've heard that the biggest problem with the Wood Elves has been the creation of a balanced armylist.

Because WE play in such a different way from other WH armies (mostly skirmishing instead of ranked, mostly small units instead of large)  they had a real problem with creating a balanced army. The Wood Elves as an army concept were never in danger, it was all about making an army that isn't just great to play but also great to play against.
And there's the problem, WE have never been a really fun army to play against, challenging yes, but not necessarily fun, rather they were seen as irritating.

Let's look at the current Skaven army rules, would anyone dispute that in general Skaven as they are now aren't really fun to play against? they are far to easily taken to a ridiculous level like the SAD lists that is universally dispised.

Sorry WE players but that is you! WE were this way and the WD list hasn't really helped any of the basic problems people have with WE.
But I've heard that they've finally gotten the problems fixed, yes it took a godawfully long time and it's bitter that a new army like OK came first, but if this meant that the WE development got the attention it deserved then it's all ok by me! WE are a great concept and have continously been the source of some great looking miniatures, they deserve a good armylist.

Want to complain against time taken away from the WE development? Don't point to the OK, they are but a speck in comparison. Look at LOTR, these past years LOTR has gobbled up an awfull lot of time of the game designers, just look at the speed of release of armies before and after the release of LOTR, not just WHFB but also 40K has suffered because of this.

I'm sure the WE will not go the way of the Squats and the waiting time has been long, but in the end I think it will be all worth it.
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Offline Midaski

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2005, 10:48:55 AM »
I think you are spot on BAWTRM.

The general opinion was that they got DE somewhat wrong, though the feeling was that core units were unbalanced, and that would have been affecting sales of plastics boxes.

Maybe this is the NEW conscientious GW - making sure it's right, before they launch it.
Let's hope so.

(Awaits loads of satirical replies)
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Offline RGB

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2005, 06:24:59 PM »
@Midaski: Well since you're awaiting for the replies, I shan't oblige. Wouldn't be any fun.

Although of course, you can probably guess my opinion on the subject.

As to it all being worth it? It's been, er, 5 years, and realistically will be 7. The army book would have to be flawless and the models incredible for it to be worth it. In fact, that's why I'm playing Empire now and probably won't go back.

I do know what you're talking about when you say they're no fun to play against - but then again I think Brets are no fun either, for most part, and I haven't played OK yet, but they look really dodgy. But yes, the WE way of fighting is different, and it's hard to get right when considering other armies.

I don't know what the panic was about though, I never thought that WE were going the way of the squat, at least the red shirts were always convinced they're coming out EVENTUALLY.
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Offline Grutch

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2005, 06:51:55 PM »
Quote from: BAWTRM
Want to complain against time taken away from the WE development? Don't point to the OK, they are but a speck in comparison. Look at LOTR, these past years LOTR has gobbled up an awfull lot of time of the game designers, just look at the speed of release of armies before and after the release of LOTR, not just WHFB but also 40K has suffered because of this.


Part of me feels that the longer LOTR ties up Aliesso Cavatore, the better.  I like the guy, but his ideas seem to be too overboard when they hit the final draft causing book creep and the like.

-Grutch

Offline Harleqin

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2005, 07:37:35 PM »
Quote from: RGB


As to it all being worth it? It's been, er, 5 years, and realistically will be 7. The army book would have to be flawless and the models incredible for it to be worth it. In fact, that's why I'm playing Empire now and probably won't go back.



True, that is a long time, but we also have to consider the other things that have tapped the ressources at GW. In that timeframe we've gotten what... 12 armybooks? Add to this the Storm of Chaos lists/book and we're actually close to an average of two books every year. Adding to this the time to design, playtest and make models as well as having to compete with the 40k and later the LotR divisions, it is not that bad.

It is a real bummer to be the last one out, but hopefully the team is now so experienced that it will have been worth the wait. I for one am very curious about what they are going to do with the army considering how long it's been in the works.
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Offline queek

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How Ironic: Wood Elves Get the Arrow 'Shaft'
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2005, 09:28:59 PM »
I think that you'll be impressed, and leave it at that.   :wink: