Topic: If you can't beat them join them.

[Dazgrim]

With the latest FAQ I think all dreams of an Empire army that can march successfully from 4th edition ends in defeat with the death of Fantasy in 2014.

With this in mind I present:

I can't believe it's not Kislev

++ Characters [355 pts] ++
Grand Master [295 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Shield, Demigryph, Ogre Blade, The White Cloak)

Master Mage [60 pts]
(Hand weapon, On foot, Daemonology)

++ Core Units [400 pts] ++
20 State Troops [130 pts]
(Hand weapons, Halberds, Light armour, Sergeant (champion), Musician)

20 State Troops [130 pts]
(Hand weapons, Halberds, Light armour, Sergeant (champion), Musician)

5 State Missile Troops [35 pts]
(Hand weapons, Crossbows, Detachment)

5 State Missile Troops [35 pts]
(Hand weapons, Crossbows, Detachment)

5 State Missile Troops [35 pts]
(Hand weapons, Crossbows, Detachment)

5 State Missile Troops [35 pts]
(Hand weapons, Crossbows, Detachment)

++ Special Units [744 pts] ++
4 Demigryph Knights [269 pts]
(Lances, Shields, Full plate armour, Demigryph Preceptor (champion) [Burning Blade + Charmed Shield])

4 Demigryph Knights [269 pts]
(Lances, Shields, Full plate armour, Demigryph Preceptor (champion) [Burning Blade + Charmed Shield])

3 Demigryph Knights [206 pts]
(Lances, Shields, Full plate armour, Demigryph Preceptor (champion) [Burning Blade + Charmed Shield])

All demigryphs will be modelled as bears.

[commandant]

I think that the state troops regiments are slightly small.   I would cut that second unit of halberdiers into two detachments of 10 each and cut out 2 of the missile detachments to add bulk to the remaining halberdiers.

[Clymer]

If you're really going to join them:

- Drop those missile detachments
- Pick up at least two units of archers with scouts
- Upgrade your wizard to a level 4

Good luck, and welcome to the new Empire 

[Warlord]

I think that the state troops regiments are slightly small.   I would cut that second unit of halberdiers into two detachments of 10 each and cut out 2 of the missile detachments to add bulk to the remaining halberdiers.

I agree that 20 is too small. I don’t agree with combat detachments. I think swap 2 of the crossbow detachments for archers, and maybe swap the other two for more halberds. Aim is to make the unit 7 or 8 wide.

Units of 4 demi’s seems a bit large and maybe harder to steer around the table?
Unfortunately I think the wizard needs to he strong too.

[Dazgrim]

I think that the state troops regiments are slightly small.   I would cut that second unit of halberdiers into two detachments of 10 each and cut out 2 of the missile detachments to add bulk to the remaining halberdiers.

If I cut the second regiment in half then I loose all four detachments of crossbows and all pretence at shooting.

Wouldn't dropping to one unit of infantry be a nonsense? At that point they're open to being overwhelmed and destroyed in short order.

[sedobren]

I'm having decent results with a big unit of veteran state troops (of the flavour you like most, i'd say either halberdiers or spearman) with a demigryph battle standard bearer captain. The unit takes the Griffon standard and the BsB the war banner, for a static Combat Resolution of 8. It has to be at least 30 models big (so 1 demigryph and 24 veteran troopers) but you may go higher to preserve that sweet rank bonus. Also Consider drilled for added speed. The demigryph adds some decent punch, resilience, fear and first charge. All in all, with 24 trooper and one demigryph captain it's about 330 pts al, togheter, not bad for something that can tank and win a dragon on the charge. You need to seriously screen their flank though, since losing the rank bonuses it's going to be a bad, bad thing.

I think if you add the 2 demigryph units, a mage (possibly a flying lvl4 one) and maybe a steam tank so that you have both a cannon and a melee unit you could do something.

[Warlord]

A Steam tank can protect an infantry unit flank pretty well.

I don't think veterans are a good investment personally. Too expensive when normal can pretty much do the same job. I realise its to get Griffon Banner, however you could give that to the BSB and drop War Banner and you are saving about 75 points by just reducing WS by 1 and removing 1 Static CR.

Mordian Glory’s 2 big units of halberds, as well as that other list that had 2 big units of free company is what I am interested in with regards to making infantry work. They need attention, have enough models to be trouble for elites and for hordes by straddling that middle ground. Can't be easily killed by chaff. And don’t need that massive investment - they are still a support unit, you aren't taking a traditional battle line.

Combat Detachments seem like a terrible idea, when you can achieve a lot of the same thing by other means (such as screening units to take the charge on their turn, so you can charge in your own, using greatswords with FBIGO, etc.)

[Clymer]

I've been having tremendous success with that Veteran State Troop build that Sedobren describes. It's really so good. It's also the only veteran unit I've been able to get to work very well. I've now tried drilled halberds several times and while they can actually win a couple rounds of combat, they eventually just dissolve from attritional wounds and give up a lot of points. Running that demigryph in a 5-wide or 6-wide (Depending on how your local group interprets characters joining a unit and ranks) makes them so tough because the enemy unit must commit some attacks to the demi. It also pretty much guarantees that you do some wounds back, even if you get charged. Plus, the demi contributes First Charge if you can pull it off, making a first turn they charge absolutely devastating!

@ Warlord, that's a good point about it costing 75 points just to pick up the griffon standard. We play that it adds +2, rather than +1... not going into that debate again, but that alone makes that 75 point cost more justifiable.

It's a really good question though, it feels like it deserves its own thread... I'll start one.

[commandant]

Combat Detachments seem like a terrible idea, when you can achieve a lot of the same thing by other means (such as screening units to take the charge on their turn, so you can charge in your own, using greatswords with FBIGO, etc.)

The idea of combat detachments (at least in my head) is that they are deployed back from the parent unit to make them difficult to charge.   They then become a force multiplier if the parent unit is charged because they can counter charge.   It is a more defensive style.   In this maybe spearmen would be better than halberdiers for the extra attacks.

I think that the state troops regiments are slightly small.   I would cut that second unit of halberdiers into two detachments of 10 each and cut out 2 of the missile detachments to add bulk to the remaining halberdiers.

If I cut the second regiment in half then I loose all four detachments of crossbows and all pretence at shooting.

Wouldn't dropping to one unit of infantry be a nonsense? At that point they're open to being overwhelmed and destroyed in short order.

Maybe but infantry in TOW is hard to destroy when it is large.   Big infantry blocks properly supported don't often run and with combat detachments can be expected to win combat reasonably often.

1 infantry block with 2 combat detachments is somewhere between 18 and 24 inches wide depending on how the are deployed.   If you deploy 24 infantry in a 7X4 (ish.  It'll be three full ranks of 7 with the extra 3 models in the fourth rank) with the combat detachments deployed 7 wide then that formation takes up 21 inches of table space in just models and a further 2-6 inches in distance between the blocks.

You have a lot of Demigriffon knights to protect their flanks as well.   I would not be that worried about being overwhelmed.   In fact I'd be more concerned that your 20 strong infantry blocks will be overwhelmed.

Plus, the demi contributes First Charge if you can pull it off, making a first turn they charge absolutely devastating!

Does half the unit not need to have first charge to get it?

[Warlord]

I get your use of combat detachments. The positioning, unit comp, etc. its not that.
Its the width it takes up on the board, the cost of the infantry, and how static CR isn’t as powerful this edition, that I have a problem with.

I plan to play 2k games. And I like to play MSU. I can’t spare that space.

Furthermore, you didn't address my actual point that all this stuff can be done with just a unit of screening chaff or a FBIGO unit in front to eat the enemy charge, and then in your turn, you can charge with whatever you like, like knights, flagellants, greatswords or a steam tank, rather than only being able to charge with our weak infantry.

[commandant]

Its not an MSU style. This is true.

Its the force concentration to that can't be done vy anything else. If you charge a parent unit you are looking at something that has somewhere between 17-23 attacks (10-14/16 of them at +3/+4 I).

It means that the combat detachments have to have resources committed to them. They can't be ignored in the action economy of force concentration.

[drweir4]

Re the Demi character in state troops idea, especially a bsb isn’t the issue is that because of the base size a lot of the time you are going to have 4 enemy models who can attack your 3w t4 guy? Clearly they can be relatively tough but there is a huge risk of them just being killed out especially if the idea is to fight multiple rounds and grind them down.

[Minsc]

Re the Demi character in state troops idea, especially a bsb isn’t the issue is that because of the base size a lot of the time you are going to have 4 enemy models who can attack your 3w t4 guy? Clearly they can be relatively tough but there is a huge risk of them just being killed out especially if the idea is to fight multiple rounds and grind them down.

Assuming 25mm bases, its one model more (from 3 to 4) that can allocate attacks against the BSB. Thats not really a big issue. In return the BSB will have +1 W and Save, plus 3 Demigryph-attacks. Its well worth it imo.
Most of the time my opponent would ignore the T4 2+ BSB and go for the much squishier Greatswords or State Troops for easy CR anyway

[Warlord]

The opponent can’t ignore some of those attacks though can they? If they are only in B2B with the character, surely they have to attack the character?
And I am meaning that as a good thing - saving trooper lives with superior character saves…

[Minsc]

The opponent can’t ignore some of those attacks though can they? If they are only in B2B with the character, surely they have to attack the character?
And I am meaning that as a good thing - saving trooper lives with superior character saves…

Yes, if the enemy unit is wider then it's most likely that 2 enemy models will only be in b2b with the BSB and have to allocate attacks against him. (compared to 1 if the BSB was on a 25mm himself.)

If your units are equally wide, then it will probably only be 1 enemy model who has to allocate attacks against him.
(compared to 0 if the BSB was on a 25 mm himself.)