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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Empire 8th Army Book => Topic started by: Pistol Pete on February 18, 2009, 11:20:05 PM
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I love Dogs of War. Not as much as I love Empire, but they're still near and dear to me. Despite the fact that their rules absolutely suck.
So I decided I'm going to give something back to the friggin' gaming community.
God knows GW is in no hurry to give Dogs of War a revamp, but I don't see whay we can't do an overhaul of then rules to bring them back from the brink of extinction. If we're successful, GW may actually pay attention to what we've done and might bring DoW back. But even if GW ignores us, I'll still consider it a success if we can build a workable army list that gives the Tileans a workable army, and makes mercenaries a fun and thematically appropriate addition to the army.
So heres a quick overview of what I'm thinking:
1) An overhaul of the basic DoW list
A- Magic Items (DoW have only the basics)
B- Characters (Boring for the most part, and paymaster is an annoying bag of suck)
C- Troop choices (The list needs to be recosted and balanced a bit, but isn't terrible)
2) An overhaul of the Mercenary system
Let's face it, some DoW choices don't make sense. Are the beastmen really going to convince a Tilean cannon crew to join them? Unlikely. Will the lizardmen hire a bunch of pikemen to defend thier temples? Unlikely. Would any human mercenary trust the rat men? Tileans HATE ratmen! But how about some thematically appropriate options that will fit in with the various armies harmoniously? This will be a tricky thing to balance but I think it's one of the things that will make or break this project.
3) Regiments of Renown
The existing lists not only suck, but they are thematically inappropriate for many armies. I think each army deserves a little bit of love when it comes to RoR, and I think this could be a colorful and fun part of the list.
4) Kislev
We can adapt the Kislev list to work with the DoW list I think. Kislev, like DoW, deserves another chance. :closed-eyes:
So there's the gist of it. I'll need some input and playtesting from youse guys to make this happen. If you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.
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Core Troops:
Pikes are largely the same, though the strikes first rule has changed to "defended obstacle". Zweihanders have replaced duellists, and serve to add a bit of long term power to support pike units. Mercenary troops add some bulk foot troopers to the field (something DoW lacked), and crossbowmen get a repeater crossbow for the champion since the crossbow is Tilea's signature weapon.
Heavy Cavalry is largely the same, with only a recosted command unit, and a magic banner option. Light Cav has been tweaked a bit more, allowing the champion +1 BS and +1 Attack, as well as a points tweak.
Pikemen- 8 points
Unit size 10+
Hand Weapon, Pike, Light Armor. May upgrade to Heavy armor for 2 pts.
Special rules- Fights in 4 ranks, Two hands, counts as a defended obstacle when charged from the front, +1 str when charged by cavalry, chariots, or monsters
Zweihanders- 8 points.
Unit size: 5-10
Weapon Skill 4
Hand Weapon, Light Armor, Great Weapon. May Upgrade to heavy armor for 2 points.
Special rules-Skirmishers, Detachment- You may have 1 unit Zweihanders for each unit of pikemen in your army. Each unit must be deployed at the same time as the pikemen unit to which it is attatched, and must be deployed withing 3" of the parent unit.
Mercenary Troopers- 5 points.
Unit size 10+
Light Armor, Hand Weapon, Halberd. May purchase shields for 1 point, or swap thier halberds for shields at no cost.
Crossbowmen- 8 points.
Unit Size: 10+
Crossbow, Hand Weapon
Musician 5 pts, Std Bearer 10 pts, Champion 5 points
Champ has option for Tilean repeater crossbow: 2x shots, 10 points
Heavy Cavalry- 19 pts
Unit size
Champion- 15 pts
Standard Bearer- 15 pts
Musician- 8 pts
Equipment- Hand Weapon, Lance, Heavy Armor, Shield, Warhorse. May add barding for 2pts per model.
One unit of Heavy Cavalry may carry a magic Banner up to 50 points.
Light Cavalry- 11 points
Champion- 14 pts (+1 BS and +1 attack)
Standard Bearer- 10 points
Musician- 8 points
Equipment- Hand Weapon, Warhorse. May have spear- 1pt, Bow- 3pts, and/or Shield- 2pts
One Unit of Light Cavalry may carry a magic banner up to 25 points.
Your input is appreciated. :::cheers:::
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- Champions only ever have +1BS or +1A, not both.
- Why would you want to replace duelists as they are one of the unique units to the army?
- Paymaster should certainly be retained for thematic reasons. Kind of like Brettonians having the battle standard.
- Pikes for 8 points is incredibly cheap if you consider their power in games
I think its important to ensure that the list does not simply became a more "historical" version of the empire army but remains distinctly different. Dont get me wrong I love dogs of war though and use pikemen whenever I can.
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In before PhillyT demands you let DoW/Pikes die a natural death.
Keep Duellist. But I do love the idea of skirmishing human greatsworders. With floppy hats.
Changing Always Strikes First to Defending an Obstacle is an interesting change, and justifies the lowering in points, as most armies have plenty of things with high initiative. And some have a lot with lower.
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I thought I posted this somewhere but I cant find it..
During the Warhammer Seminar at GW headoffice last weekend someone asked if a DoW revamp was due/inc. In a nut shell they said no. They basically said it was a nice idea but felt it debalanced some armies. Armies can kinda loose its identity with DoW.
They did, however, say that if people wanted to use them they are welcome too (as ts our game we play) but not to expect any new offical stuff being released.
I personally think there should be a DoW army book, but each unit will only join certain armies - eg not allowing Halfling hot pot joining a choas army..
On a side not, gif Empire armies Pikemen!
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Take Shields of halberdiers, and give them the option to upgrade to heavy armour instead
Have a look at the "Armies of Chivalry" army lists from WAB, the Imperial German lists in there are worth looking at for inspiration since they are pretty much the template for WFB DoW imo.
Throw in a dash of Condottier and Free Companies and you've cracked it...oh yeah and as MarkW says, be much more restrictive on which special units can join which army lists...
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- Champions only ever have +1BS or +1A, not both.
- Why would you want to replace duelists as they are one of the unique units to the army?
- Paymaster should certainly be retained for thematic reasons. Kind of like Brettonians having the battle standard.
- Pikes for 8 points is incredibly cheap if you consider their power in games
Champions- Yeah, I know champs sually only get +1 BS or +1 Attack, but DoW light cav are like none other in the warhammer world in that they can actually be outfitted for many roles. Given that they are relatively wimpy, I don't think giving them a very minor boost of +1BS is unbalancing, and I think the old rules forcing them to lose the extra attack if they carried a bow was weak. So there.
I love Duellists, and think they're neat, but with the other changes I've made to the list, i think they'd be a bit unbalalnced. I also think that the Zweihanders and Mercenary troopers compliment the pikes better.
Paymaster- If nothing else I'll keep him as an optional character. IfI can find something interesting to do with him, I may make him a mandatory character, as before, but in general, I frown upon such things. Suggestions are welcome.
Pikes- I think pikes are just about right at 8 points each, given the power level of current armies. I'd consider bumping them up to 9 points, but honestly, I think most folks would want them with heavy armor for 10 points, which seems reasonable.
How about this: No armor for pikemen, at 8 points, and you may add light armor for 1 point and heavy armor for 2 points?
Take Shields of halberdiers, and give them the option to upgrade to heavy armour instead
I hear what you're saying but give me a chance to explain: These are NOT supposed to be heavy troopers, but simple squishy blocks of footsloggers to add static CR. Remember, they're being supported by pikes and Zweihanders with great weapons to add kills. The halberds are there mostly for style, since halberd and pikes look so great together. However those that wish may add shields for a point or simply swap the halberds altogether, giving you many options for these troopers.
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Take Shields of halberdiers, and give them the option to upgrade to heavy armour instead
I hear what you're saying but give me a chance to explain: These are NOT supposed to be heavy troopers, but simple squishy blocks of footsloggers to add static CR. Remember, they're being supported by pikes and Zweihanders with great weapons to add kills. The halberds are there mostly for style, since halberd and pikes look so great together. However those that wish may add shields for a point or simply swap the halberds altogether, giving you many options for these troopers.
But...Halberds NEVER fought with shields so they are totally out of context (and the whole concept is so offensive to my sense of verisimilitude it would spoil the rest of the list for me) and they did have heavy armour and are tactically more flexible than pike, and should be a whole lot more manouverable
Again, check out "Armies of Chivalry" since it uses the same basic rules
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And now for the specials and rares:
Special Troops
Raiders (0-1)- 6 points
Unit size: 5-10
WS 4
Hand Weapon. May take an additional hand weapon for 1 point. May take light armor for 1pt. May take a shield for 2 pts. May take bows for 3 points.
Scout, Skirmishers
Paymaster's bodyguard- I'd like to do something intersting with these guys, but I'm not sure yet.
Ungol Horse Archers- Kislev Rules
Winged Lancers- Kislev Rules
Dwarfs- No rule changes
Halflings- No Changes
DoW Light Cannon- Same as usual, although a special now instead of a rare
Ogres-
Ogre Bulls- See OK book
Ironguts- See OK book
Leadbelchers (0-1)- See OK book
Gnoblar Entourage- A DoW player may take a single (0-1) unit of Gnoblars as a core choice if he takes an ogre unit. These represent gnoblars that have tagged along to serve thier masters. Only one gnoblar unit may be taken in this manner, no matter how many ogre units you have. This unit must be deployed at the same time as one of your other ogre units, and within 3" of that unit.
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Rare Troops
Halfling Hot Pot- If you have a unit of halflings, you may take 2 hotpots as a single rare choice. Any other hotpots beyond these two count as a single rare choice each.
Giant- Standard Rules
Ogre Maneaters (0-1)
Maneaters count as a single rare choice if you have at least one other ogre unit in your army.
The Ogres been streamlined to the DoW list. The Bulls and Ironguts have replaced the old DoW ogres, and the Leadbelchers have become a 0-1 unit to reflect their greater rarity compared to Bulls and Ironguts. I really didn't think they deserved a rare slot. I think the bonus gnoblar entourage is a fluffy and fun adddition without being too nasty. Maneaters are also 0-1 units but they only take up a single rare choice now, if you've got any other ogres. I changed this to reflect the fact that ogres would be more likely to serve as DoW mercs than they would with other armies.
Dwarves are fine as is and need no changes. Giants were added. Halflings got a minor tweak: You can take 2 hot pots for one rare slot if you've got a unit of halflings in your army. Cannons have moved from rare to special, and Kislev Winged Lancers and Ungol horse Archers have been added. Norse maurauders have been dropped, but I didn't care for them thematically (too chaotic), and the models were atrocious.
I added the raiders as a multipurpose scout unit, sort of taking the place of duelists, and making for a dangerous little unit. Sort of like huntsmen on steroids. Should be a good war machine hunter or anti-scout unit.
I'm not sure what to do with the paymaster's bodyguard. I may make it a 0-1 core unit if a paymaster is taken to relieve some of the crowding from the specials.
This list makes the Dogs of War a very versatile Empire style list with less shooting, and more emphasis on movement and combat. This should be a blast to play, with loads of interesting builds, but shouldn't be too overpowered. Your input is, as always, welcome.
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But...Halberds NEVER fought with shields so they are totally out of context (and the whole concept is so offensive to my sense of verisimilitude it would spoil the rest of the list for me) and they did have heavy armour and are tactically more flexible than pike, and should be a whole lot more manouverable
Again, check out "Armies of Chivalry" since it uses the same basic rules
The mercenary troopers are not supposed to be wealthy, but rather poor footsloggers hired on the cheap. Heavy armor, in my opinion is more for elite troopers.
I was thinking something more along the lines of bucklers, rather than full-sized heater shields, which could conceivably be carried while using a halberd. Check out the rest of the army list. It's NOT lacking for combat power, and I think heavy armor would arguably be too much for these galoots.
Would you feel better with an elite bodyguard unit of str 4 halberdiers in heavy armor for the paymaster's bodyguard? This is one of the Ideas I'm currently kicking around...
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I love Duellists, and think they're neat, but with the other changes I've made to the list, i think they'd be a bit unbalalnced. I also think that the Zweihanders and Mercenary troopers compliment the pikes better.
Paymaster- If nothing else I'll keep him as an optional character. IfI can find something interesting to do with him, I may make him a mandatory character, as before, but in general, I frown upon such things. Suggestions are welcome.
Pikes- I think pikes are just about right at 8 points each, given the power level of current armies. I'd consider bumping them up to 9 points, but honestly, I think most folks would want them with heavy armor for 10 points, which seems reasonable.
How about this: No armor for pikemen, at 8 points, and you may add light armor for 1 point and heavy armor for 2 points?
Great idea. I imagine we will all have opinions.
Another vote for keeping Duelists since they are one of the units that doesn't suck. Adding other units doesn't unbalance the list, this is GW after all. Besides I thought this was a call for ideas and play testing? :icon_lol:
The paymaster could become the free hero slot like a Bretonnian BSB. His main suckiness is a lack of survivability. Change his possible selection of magic items or basic equipment and he becomes better.
Pikes are currently over valued, so I think dropping the points to 8 with light armor fixes that.
And put move and shoot back in Bronzino's and its a must have. (Needs a fix for grapeshot though...)
I also recommend the Crisis in Marienburg lists as a starting point for units and points fixes.
:::cheers:::
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- Champions only ever have +1BS or +1A, not both.
Actually DE's champions in at least a few units do get both.
Phil
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Shame bucklers are represented, it might be a nice addition (+1 as in hand to hand only)
Make the halberdiers start with no armour, but allow the upgrades to light and heavy?
As a historical note, mercenaries were exactly the sort of people who would have the cash for armour, the reason for the puffed and slashed look was simply because they had so much cash to spend.
For cheap troopers, hired to bulk out the army, why not spears or free company? But remember a mercenary force should have plenty of firepower, after all, its costing a lot for someone to pay these guys.
(I like the army list so far, I have to point out, just this little sticking point)
One other suggestion - often landsnecht forces would have what they called the Folorn Hope - a unit of halberdiers or greatswords that would lead the way into the enemy lines, low chance of living, very high pay if you did - one unit of GS or halberds can be upgrated to Folorn Hope at x cost and get the unbreakable trait.
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Explain why you are referring to the landsketchers if the DoW army is meant to be Telian? I thought regular Empire was the landsketchers of the Warhammer world. Except that they have robots. And tanks. And griffins. And magic. And crazy relgious guys. And spears.
Phil
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I like some of the ideas - very much agree with the Defended Obstacle aspect for pikes - but this is leaning too much "Empire" and not enough "Merc."
So general thoughts, from the top...
Paymaster as an option - and the only way for DoW to get a Battle-Standard-Equivalent. Of course, he can't actually take a magic standard. Maybe render his unit Stubborn? Keep the BSB trait, though.
Pikes - lose the +1 Strength thing. 8 pts for light armour, 4 ranks, and a defended obstacle that you carry around with you. Sounds awesome to me, and gives Pikes the ability to negate the Cavalry Lance - and thus perhaps win a combat or two.
Zweihanders, Mercs, & Duellists - these should be one option. A unit of humans with hand weapons; option to skirmish, option for armour/heavy armour, option for pistols OR shields, option for spears, and option for great weapons. Simply called "Mercenaries."
Crossbows - add in options for light/heavy armour and pavises. I like the repeater crossbow. :happy:
Light Cav - Add option for crossbows (ie, Tilean horse). Keep the +1 BS and A for champ.
Heavy Cav - switch to "Freelancers." Start with only horse, heavy armour, and lance. Option for shield and barding. Start at 18 pts.
Keep the Light Cannon as a Rare choice. I like the two-for-one Hot Pot. Oh, and give the Light Cannon the option to buy the "Horse Artillery" option.
Drop the Ungols - they're practically mercenaries to the Kislevites, and far too uncommon to be in the DoW list.
Unsure on the Ogre Kingdoms stuff for now.
A few other thoughts.
Bring back the Birdmen! Human profile, armed with light crossbow (ie, bow with armour piercing), and price them at about 15 pts/model.
Characters - what about a more..."multiracial" feel to them? An option for an Orc, Elf, Dwarf, or Human general? An elf, human, or goblin wizard? A human or dwarven paymaster? A human, dwarven, elven, orcish, or even ogre captain?
Along those lines, why not go more multi-racial with the whole list? Hobgoblin wolf riders, Skaven skirmishers, Elven scouts, and Orc fighters could all make an appearance. There's enough room in the Warhammer World to make space for such things; all the mercenaries in Tilea aren't human, after all, and all Dogs of War armies aren't (and shouldn't be!) necessarily Tilean. Or even Estalian.
Final thought for now - a way to work Regiments of Renown. Stop the whole "special write-up for every unit" thing. Make it an upgrade - as follows.
One unit in the army may be upgraded to a Regiment of Renown. The Regiment must have a standard, musician, and champion. At a cost of 35 pts + 2 pts/model, all models in the unit gain +1 to WS and BS. The Champion, in addition, benefits from +1 to WS and BS (in addition to the +1 from being a RoR), +1 S, +1 T, +1 W, +1 I, +1 A, and +1 Ld.
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Pikes need the +1 strength bonus. The defended obstacle is an elegant idea but it really gives no advantage versus the newer armies since they will all strike before you and have a decent strength even without the charge bonus for lances. (Chaos/Blood Knights)
Pikes when I've gotten to use them keep cav, chariots and monsters back with strike first, +1 strength and lots of attacks. Take that away and they'll roll right over you. Compare 20 strike first, S4 attacks against a charging giant with whatevers left strength 3 attacks after the roll off for initiative.
Like the simply 'mercenaries' suggestion. Great possibilities.
X-bows--like that too.
Cav--nice. Really like the option for X-bows.
Ungols become human Light Cav regiment of renown option?
Cannon--define your terms. A light cannon is not the standard DoW cannon. Bronzino's guns are 'light'. St 7 range 24". The DoW cannon choice is St 10 range 48". It should not have a horse artillery option. I like the cannon in Special.
I like the upgrade option for regiments of renown, but instead of only stats perhaps you could buy a fighting style or special rule similar to Saurus spawnings?
And then we get to the necessary but nearly impossible add non-humans besides Dwarfs, Ogres and halflings. Huge undertaking. It could be done by adding a core choice or 2 for every possible army. And unearthing the 2nd and 3rd edition regiments of renown that never made the 5th edition. There ought to be mercenary Orcs that fight for Ogres or Chaos. High Elves ought to fight for the Empire more often.
We only refer to Landsnechts because it irritates Philly. I thought that was obvious. :icon_razz:
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Bring back the Birdmen!
And put move and shoot back in Bronzino's and its a must have. (Needs a fix for grapeshot though...)
Remember that this is only the basic Dogs of War List. Regiments of Renown are on the list of issues to be addressed, but not until I have hammered out the basic DoW rules first. I still need to finish up the character and magic item selection, and of course there also needs to be some sort of playtesting of the whole mess.
As for Bronzino, the galloper guns are my favorite regiment of renown. I think they actually work just fine, as is. The Birdmen are also cool but presently *very* overcosted (a common problem with virtually all of the RoR).
Paymaster as an option - and the only way for DoW to get a Battle-Standard-Equivalent. Of course, he can't actually take a magic standard. Maybe render his unit Stubborn? Keep the BSB trait, though.
I'm leaning toward the idea of making the paymaster a mandatory character that doesn't take up a character slot; ie, you still; have to pay the points for him, but he doesn't count against your character limit. I'm thinking he'll be a modest warrior (WS4, 2 attacks), but he'll make his unit stubborn (any unit he's in), and I think the paymaster's bodyguard should be immune to fear as long as he's in the unit. This should make them a real tough nut to crack (at least until he's dead!).
Characters - what about a more..."multiracial" feel to them? An option for an Orc, Elf, Dwarf, or Human general? An elf, human, or goblin wizard? A human or dwarven paymaster? A human, dwarven, elven, orcish, or even ogre captain?
While this is an exciting concept, I think there's already a lot going on, and I don't want to dillute the Tilean angle too much. Also, many of those races mentioned would not work well with humans. The elves don't seem to be very inclined toward mercenary work in general (Arsinil seems to be the exception). DE might be inclined to fight for pay, but they'd also probably be very difficult to control, and likely to ruffle the feathers of the humans who hired them. Betrayal is also likely. Gobbos and humans have a rocky history, and they seem a little too undisciplined for merc work. Chaos is also not really workable (except, perhaps, as a cult army). I think these races would work as regments of renown (under the control of a mercenary captain of thier own race), but they'd be a poor choice as a general troop type.
Humans Dwarves, Ogres, and Halflings seem to be the most common sort of mercs in the Tilean world, and I don't want to upset that balance, by adding too much else. I think using other races as characters is even more of a problem, not because it's not fluffy (because a dwarf or ogre captain seems reasonable), but because it's potentially unbalalncing, and because it makes things even more complicated. Remember that this list already has a lot of flexibility built into it from the ground up, and that it will also have access to a revamped regiments of renown. I don't think it needs non-human characters.
Crossbows - add in options for light/heavy armour and pavises. I like the repeater crossbow.
I think pavises and heavy armor are two things crossbowmen don't really need. Add an expensive character and a standard bearer and you've got something that could be a regment of renown. Oh wait.... it already IS a regiment of renown! :icon_mrgreen: I actually do have some ideas for some interesting types of units for the regiments of renown, but I think the basic units should be just that... basic.
Heavy Cav - switch to "Freelancers." Start with only horse, heavy armour, and lance. Option for shield and barding. Start at 18 pts.
Okay. Wait... what? :? Why would you want heavy cav without shields? A barding option is already there, and it can actually make a difference when you surprise your opponent with an extra 2" of movement, but why would you try to shave off a point for not having a shield? I do however, like the name "Freelancers".
Cannon--define your terms. A light cannon is not the standard DoW cannon.
I use the term "light" cannon as opposed to "great" cannon. When I mean galloper guns, I'll say galloper guns. But bronzino is a regiment of renown and that means it is NOT a part of the basic DoW army list.
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Pikes need the +1 strength bonus. The defended obstacle is an elegant idea but it really gives no advantage versus the newer armies since they will all strike before you and have a decent strength even without the charge bonus for lances. (Chaos/Blood Knights)
Pikes when I've gotten to use them keep cav, chariots and monsters back with strike first, +1 strength and lots of attacks. Take that away and they'll roll right over you. Compare 20 strike first, S4 attacks against a charging giant with whatevers left strength 3 attacks after the roll off for initiative.
The +1 Strength so rarely actually helps, since Warhammer's armour system grants cavalry such obscene saves (ie, our own knights). It's nice, but not necessary, against ogres and such.
I have two reasons for arguing for no strength bonus. First, it doesn't really matter that often. Chaos Knights and Blood Knights are going to smash through your pikemen like twigs whether they have that +1 Str or not - as they should. Against Ogres and such, Pikes deliver enough attacks to overcome such things. Against more modest cavalry - like Bretonnian, Elven, or Imperial - the mere Defended Obstacle rule already makes pikes very tough, since those guys are now hitting at S3 or 4 instead of 5 or 6 (and the Brets don't get their Lance). Pikes shouldn't be an unbreakable unit - just a tough nut to crack for non-ultra-elite troops.
My second reason is mere cost. At 10 pts per model, pikes right now are brutally expensive. 8 points seems fair for Defended Obstacle and Fight in Four Ranks (and their light armour). You might even get away with 7 (but I doubt it). But we need cheaper pikes in order to put them on the field effectively. When character + Pikes = nearly a quarter of the army, that is WAY to expensive a unit for what it's going to do on the field. I want their cost down, and that means keeping their abilities down, too. Or just pretending that they're Dark Elves. :dry:
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The +1 Strength so rarely actually helps, since Warhammer's armour system grants cavalry such obscene saves (ie, our own knights). It's nice, but not necessary, against ogres and such.
I have two reasons for arguing for no strength bonus. First, it doesn't really matter that often. Chaos Knights and Blood Knights are going to smash through your pikemen like twigs whether they have that +1 Str or not - as they should. Against Ogres and such, Pikes deliver enough attacks to overcome such things. Against more modest cavalry - like Bretonnian, Elven, or Imperial - the mere Defended Obstacle rule already makes pikes very tough, since those guys are now hitting at S3 or 4 instead of 5 or 6 (and the Brets don't get their Lance). Pikes shouldn't be an unbreakable unit - just a tough nut to crack for non-ultra-elite troops.
My second reason is mere cost. At 10 pts per model, pikes right now are brutally expensive. 8 points seems fair for Defended Obstacle and Fight in Four Ranks (and their light armour). You might even get away with 7 (but I doubt it). But we need cheaper pikes in order to put them on the field effectively. When character + Pikes = nearly a quarter of the army, that is WAY to expensive a unit for what it's going to do on the field. I want their cost down, and that means keeping their abilities down, too. Or just pretending that they're Dark Elves.
Actually, you'll see that I reduced the pikemen's cost to 8 points with light armor included, though I kept the +1 strength. Given that elite infantry have gotten extremely good and have gotten cheaper as well, I think 8 points is reasonable. Especially since pikemen need to be deployed in big blocks to be effective (while elites can get away with two ranks). Also, pikemen are slow, and relatively defenseless against missile fire. 200 points for a unit of 25 pikemen seems about right.
I'm actually considering dropping the light armor and making them 7 points (with optional armor upgrades) , but that might be too much. Some playtesting is in order, I think.
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Two things I think are missing from the dogs of war list are handguns and bows. They have pistols, so why don't they have handguns too?
Adding those two weapons makes sense, and makes the list more useful for converting historical wargame armies to warhammer (which is one of the main uses for the dogs of war list).
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Two things I think are missing from the dogs of war list are handguns and bows. They have pistols, so why don't they have handguns too?
Adding those two weapons makes sense, and makes the list more useful for converting historical wargame armies to warhammer (which is one of the main uses for the dogs of war list).
Why not just add pikes to the Empire list if you are going that way. :icon_rolleyes:
I would suggest keeping it as close to the current DoW list as possible, not add a bunch of Empire things for no apparant reason.
Phil
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Handguns and bows are not purely Empire things. It makes no sense to have pistols but not handguns, as I already said.
I can see no reasonable objection to that.
Also, you lose eighty seven billion points for using the eye-rolling emoticon. It makes you look like a sulky teenager. Though maybe that's a look you'd like to go for.
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Nah ah!
:dry:
As for handguns, since they are so common, why wouldn't the goblins have figured them out yet? Good point. This whole revision thing is great!
Hell, since Ogres use handguns as pistols, and cannons as handguns, how great if we revise their cannons to be hellcannons and finish the whole thing off!
Oh yeah, we are on to something now!
Phil
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Yes, that does indeed sound like a rational consequence of my desire to allow human mercenaries to use handguns. You are a rare intellect.
However, it occurs to me that our hilarious squabble is a bit out of place in this thread. So, let's call it a draw and leave people to their dogs-of-war-related fun.
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Hmmm...
Well played Chemist. Well played.
Phil
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The +1 Strength so rarely actually helps, since Warhammer's armour system grants cavalry such obscene saves (ie, our own knights). It's nice, but not necessary, against ogres and such.
I have two reasons for arguing for no strength bonus. First, it doesn't really matter that often. Chaos Knights and Blood Knights are going to smash through your pikemen like twigs whether they have that +1 Str or not - as they should. Against Ogres and such, Pikes deliver enough attacks to overcome such things. Against more modest cavalry - like Bretonnian, Elven, or Imperial - the mere Defended Obstacle rule already makes pikes very tough, since those guys are now hitting at S3 or 4 instead of 5 or 6 (and the Brets don't get their Lance). Pikes shouldn't be an unbreakable unit - just a tough nut to crack for non-ultra-elite troops.
My second reason is mere cost. At 10 pts per model, pikes right now are brutally expensive. 8 points seems fair for Defended Obstacle and Fight in Four Ranks (and their light armour). You might even get away with 7 (but I doubt it). But we need cheaper pikes in order to put them on the field effectively. When character + Pikes = nearly a quarter of the army, that is WAY to expensive a unit for what it's going to do on the field. I want their cost down, and that means keeping their abilities down, too. Or just pretending that they're Dark Elves. :dry:
First pikes don't get a St bonus against Ogres. The bonus only counts against monsters, cavalry and chariots. Ogres are no longer monsters. They are just Big Things a category that includes monsters...
Second, cost. The general argument has been for years now that pikes are overpriced for their ability. I understand that you do not make that argument, but a cursory look at any pike/DoW/Giant thread ought to provide examples of those who do. :closed-eyes:
js
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This thread looks right up my street :wink:
In the past I have done my own version of DoW and from what I've seen we've actually done quite a few things the same, but I do have a couple of qualms though. The crossbowmen champion with a repeater crossbow would actualy be a good upgrade option but so would the option of the unit to be equipped with light armour and/or pavises.
Now as for the light cav I actualy made two options, one with light armour, shield and spear and a +1 to the champions A, the other option I gave them light armour and repeater crossbows with the option to replace the repeaters with bows for -x pts whilst the champion got +1 Bs.
The pikemen on the other hand were over priced, hand weapon, pike and light armour for 8 pts with the original rules seemed fine to me, with the option to upgrade to heavy armour for +2 pts was also a good idea, that's what I did anyway, but I also added the option to make them veterans for +3 pts so they got +1 Ws, S & Ld, the option to get full-plate for an additional 2pts and they bacame a special choice.
I'd be more than happy to playtest the list once a full draft has been put together, and if you'd like I could get my versions typed up and PM them to you so you could cross referance them.
:::cheers:::
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Also, I think that the ability to make your pike regiments have the front rankers with, hand weapon, shield and light/heavy armor and crossbow wouyld be nice, you get a nice stand and shoot reaction, followed by the 4 ranks atacking with your front rankers having a 4+/3+ save.
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This is looking very interesting! If you need play testing, I will be happy to help (playing it over at ogre stronghold, so that you all can get a better view).
Cheers
Dunrik
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Also, I think that the ability to make your pike regiments have the front rankers with, hand weapon, shield and light/heavy armor and crossbow wouyld be nice, you get a nice stand and shoot reaction, followed by the 4 ranks atacking with your front rankers having a 4+/3+ save.
I remember discussion a few years back on why this rule was removed in certain lists as it made a no-brainer choice between missle and combat when you can simply have both.
I like the idea of introducing handguns but I think they will be chosen more often than crossbows which reduces the flavour of the army. On this line I dont like the idea of normal bows as the list is based on Tilea i.e. italy where they were not commonly used. Some nice ideas are crossbow equiped cavalry and possibly smaller crossbows that were often used from horesback just functioning as a variety of crossbow. I really see horsearchers with normal bows as thematically wrong.
Crossbow infantry should definately have access to the pavise and light armour. The pavise will work easiest as a shield but if you wnat it a bit more complicated try only allowing its use against shooting. All the same dwarf missle troops do not seem unbalanced by thier acccess to shields.
Zweihanders and forlorn hope are very nice ideas and would work well but should probably be dropped on thematic grounds.
Some sort of "fodder" class infantry is definately need but I dont feel halberdiers really cut it, maybe free company as someone suggested and give them access to light armour.
Just a few opinions really...
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I'd say the dogs of war list is meant to represent mercenaries from everywhere in the Old World, as well as Araby and whatever else is nearby. It's not supposed to be confined to native Tilean troops, any more than Italian condotta armies were composed of nothing but Italians.
The Tilean city-states will hire anyone and everyone to fight in their armies. In the older fluff, Tilea used to hire vast numbers of Imperial pikemen... presumably that's why we don't have any pikes left in The Empire these days. :icon_smile:
The pavise will work easiest as a shield but if you wnat it a bit more complicated try only allowing its use against shooting.
I like +2 save against shooting only, -1 to movement.
I like the idea of introducing handguns but I think they will be chosen more often than crossbows which reduces the flavour of the army.
I don't think handguns are better than crossbows under the current rules. But in any case, it's easy to add a rule that you can't have more handgunner units than crossbow units in an army.
I remember discussion a few years back on why this rule was removed in certain lists as it made a no-brainer choice between missle and combat when you can simply have both.
I think it's more the rules issues it causes. Besides, the existing pike/crossbow regiment of renown is arguably a lot weaker than a standard pike unit.
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Make DoW handgunners into skirmish units to represent how few there are in Tilea perhaps?
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wow, perhaps you guys should just change the name of this topic to "empire.... 2.0" because all the suggestions are just to make the list more like the empire. Hand gunners, free company, greatswords, light cav with strength 4 range attacks.
if you want DoW to be its own list THEN MAKE IT IS OWN LIST! GW's list was better then this because you could make an army from any part of the warhammer world, not from one specific region which you guys seem hell bent on doing.
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you could make an army from any part of the warhammer world, not from one specific region
That's why it should have bows and handguns. Then that would actually be true.
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Offroads point still stands. If that is your goal, then just add the few things not represented in the EMpire army and be done with it.
Phil
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I don't think he was talking about me anyway. And it's not my thread or my project in the first place. :icon_razz:
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Also, I think that the ability to make your pike regiments have the front rankers with, hand weapon, shield and light/heavy armor and crossbow wouyld be nice, you get a nice stand and shoot reaction, followed by the 4 ranks atacking with your front rankers having a 4+/3+ save.
I remember discussion a few years back on why this rule was removed in certain lists as it made a no-brainer choice between missle and combat when you can simply have both.
I like the idea of introducing handguns but I think they will be chosen more often than crossbows which reduces the flavour of the army. On this line I dont like the idea of normal bows as the list is based on Tilea i.e. italy where they were not commonly used. Some nice ideas are crossbow equiped cavalry and possibly smaller crossbows that were often used from horesback just functioning as a variety of crossbow. I really see horsearchers with normal bows as thematically wrong.
Crossbow infantry should definately have access to the pavise and light armour. The pavise will work easiest as a shield but if you wnat it a bit more complicated try only allowing its use against shooting. All the same dwarf missle troops do not seem unbalanced by thier acccess to shields.
Zweihanders and forlorn hope are very nice ideas and would work well but should probably be dropped on thematic grounds.
Some sort of "fodder" class infantry is definately need but I dont feel halberdiers really cut it, maybe free company as someone suggested and give them access to light armour.
Just a few opinions really...
I just miss my dark elf city guard :cry:
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I just miss my dark elf city guard :cry:
I bet they will be back next time the dark elves get an army book. :icon_smile:
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I just think it is rad when a spear regiment gets a 4+ save for the fighting rank+ the second rank atacking and a stand and shoot charge reaction..
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wow, perhaps you guys should just change the name of this topic to "empire.... 2.0" because all the suggestions are just to make the list more like the empire. Hand gunners, free company, greatswords, light cav with strength 4 range attacks.
if you want DoW to be its own list THEN MAKE IT IS OWN LIST! GW's list was better then this because you could make an army from any part of the warhammer world, not from one specific region which you guys seem hell bent on doing.
You have a very good point, the way this is going it could be better represtented on the normal Empire list. Really it could be achieved by fielding a themed Empire army and using the rare choices to max out on dogs of war units.
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Hence my suggestion regarding a multi-racial, pure "mercenary" army list that could represent forces from well-nigh anywhere. I don't think that a Dogs of War list needs to be purely Tilean, especially that simply results in another (somehow, theoretically, different) human Renaissance army. Tileans in the list, yes - Tileans as the list, no.
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Handguns and bows are not purely Empire things. It makes no sense to have pistols but not handguns, as I already said.
I can see no reasonable objection to that.
Well, there are a lot of things not making sense in warhammer. Why doesn't empire armies ever use bolt throwers? Imperial soldiers know how to skirmish and how to use pistols, is it really impossible to teach the men of the empire to combine these two skills. And so on. Personally I'd be most happy with some logical inconsistencies if it gives the DoW 2.0 the feeling of being different rather than modified empire.
That being said, where are the Norse berserkers? Did I miss them or did you (PP) remove them for some reason?
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Firstly well done Pete for your attempts.
I've just read this through and already the bickering shows what I feel is the problem.
GW started with RoR way back, and then continued, and then 'invented' DoW to keep the theme going.
The theme was an excuse to make models. They did not give enough thought to their use by every race.
There are two aspects to this as well - the DoW army as a whole, and then what you do with DoW units as a choice for other races.
I feel the problem is you have to start with the 'feel' or 'look' or 'ethos' or whatever you want to call it for mercenaries.
That is what we are talking about - 'mercenaries'. Which means they fight for reward. So before you can validate a troop choice you have to validate how or why it wants a reward.
With Tileans, Estalians, Border Princes, humans from Araby, Cathay, Norsica, Kislev, and even Bretonnia you can justify money/gold. Same with dwarfs and halflings ( they can buy exotic food and spices :icon_wink:)
Ogres already have the fluff, and maybe Orcs could earn teeth ............
Then bringing in the other races gets trickier. If you cannot justify the reward, then for example Skaven would be very awkward - some races may just not qualify.
Maybe you could have good and bad DoW armies - a bad army would not be too far off the 3-part Chaos army we have just moved away from ........... just add some DE (SoC army anyone) and an alliance with the rats, and away you go.
Initially I would suggest that you create an army list of troop types as Pete is trying to do.
That could be based on the fact that these guys are professionals, they would be very aware of weapon technology, and would probably be able to afford it.
Their ranks would boast most of the options available to the rest of the 'world'.
Mercenaries will fight all over the 'world', in all sorts of conditions, so may well carry a variety of weapons.
That would allow multi-upgrade choices for units.
Lastly as individual merc choices for another race, you would have to recost or disallow certain units to certain armies.
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Also, I think that the ability to make your pike regiments have the front rankers with, hand weapon, shield and light/heavy armor and crossbow wouyld be nice, you get a nice stand and shoot reaction, followed by the 4 ranks atacking with your front rankers having a 4+/3+ save.
I've already tinkered with some ideas like this, but I feel "mixed" units like this belong as part of the "regiments of renown" list, not a part of the Dogs of War list. But rest assured, I do have lots of interesting ideas like this. :icon_mrgreen:
Zweihanders and forlorn hope are very nice ideas and would work well but should probably be dropped on thematic grounds.
Forlorn hope is not a part of this list. The Zweihanders are perhaps a bit of a fluff contradiction as zweihander is a german name, and the Tileans are basically itallians. However, the two handed greatsword goes hand in hand with the pike thematically, and I think it adds a crucial high strength component to the pike formations that allows them to deal with heavier troops where the pikes would otherwise bounce off. They're not super tough (they're actually kind of squishy) but thematically and gameplay wise I think they're a good fit. I just need a good italianesque name for them. Any ideas?
I like the idea of introducing handguns but I think they will be chosen more often than crossbows which reduces the flavour of the army. On this line I dont like the idea of normal bows as the list is based on Tilea i.e. italy where they were not commonly used. Some nice ideas are crossbow equiped cavalry and possibly smaller crossbows that were often used from horesback just functioning as a variety of crossbow. I really see horsearchers with normal bows as thematically wrong.
Crossbow infantry should definately have access to the pavise and light armour. The pavise will work easiest as a shield but if you wnat it a bit more complicated try only allowing its use against shooting. All the same dwarf missle troops do not seem unbalanced by thier acccess to shields.
I don't think pavises are a great idea for crossbowmen. At 8 points a model, I always struggle to get earn their points back, and I shudder at the idea of making them more expensive. However, I'll consider this as an option, since so many people want to play with it. We'll see how it does in playtesting.
I've also decided that crossbows would be neat for light cav, so I'll add that in in the next revision. No repeater crossbows though.
As far as bows go, remember that DoW light cav are considered to come from all over the world, so you'll have various cultures using different weapons or combinations of weapons. So bows are certainly reasonable.
Some sort of "fodder" class infantry is definately need but I dont feel halberdiers really cut it, maybe free company as someone suggested and give them access to light armour.
First of all, the fodder guys are NOT halberdiers. I gave them the halberd as the default weapon, as I think halberds compliment pikes nicely. However, they need not be fielded with halberds if you don't want them to. I wanted to make these guys very bland and boring, so as not to overshadow the pikemen, while still allowing them to serve a useful purpose. I wanted to address a real weakness of the list without overcompensating for it. I may sex them them up a bit, but for the early draft I think they're fine.
I like the idea of introducing handguns but I think they will be chosen more often than crossbows which reduces the flavour of the army.
I've given this some thought. Because the crossbow is such a "Tilean" weapon, i hate to introduce handguns and dillute that imagery. What I may do is add a limited amount of handgunners as a regiment of renown or a special choice, or something of that nature. I'm still tinkering!
That being said, where are the Norse berserkers? Did I miss them or did you (PP) remove them for some reason?
Don't get me wrong. I like the Norse marauders, but thematically, I think they were out of place. I may utilize them in some other manner, but I felt that the other choices I've added are more thematically appropriate for the basic list. My army list actually has a lot of close combat punch so the marauders should not be missed too much. :wink:
I feel the problem is you have to start with the 'feel' or 'look' or 'ethos' or whatever you want to call it for mercenaries.
That is what we are talking about - 'mercenaries'. Which means they fight for reward. So before you can validate a troop choice you have to validate how or why it wants a reward.
With Tileans, Estalians, Border Princes, humans from Araby, Cathay, Norsica, Kislev, and even Bretonnia you can justify money/gold. Same with dwarfs and halflings ( they can buy exotic food and spices icon_wink)
Ogres already have the fluff, and maybe Orcs could earn teeth ............
Then bringing in the other races gets trickier. If you cannot justify the reward, then for example Skaven would be very awkward - some races may just not qualify.
This is the heart of the mercenary issue. Obviously, it makes very little sense for a skaven army to hire Tilean crossbowmen, for example, so what I am attempting to do is create "race specific" options that will fit in with the armies. For example, the skaven already operate on a quasi-mercenary level already with thier clan structure. So skaven mercs would be clan specific "one-off" units of skaven troops rather than human mercenaries... perhaps utilizing skaven units from the experimental lists along with some units of my own design.
These troops will represent specialized units not usually seen on the battlefield. Not unique, like regiments of renown, but much more rare than the typical rare choice. These specialty troops will not be a part of the Dogs af war list (because why would Tileans hire a bunch of skeezy ratmen?), but they will exist alongside the list so that these other races will be able to utilize a mercenary system that actually fits in with the existing army.
But this is the last and most difficult step of the process. I'm hammering out the basic DoW army list at the present. Mercenaries for hire will be a separate and more complex issue to be addressed in the future.
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I've also decided that crossbows would be neat for light cav
They aren't. Having used them in the past, they suffer horribly from being unable to move and fire. Their extremely limited firepower in no way makes up for that.
It's better to have mounted crossbowmen use 'light crossbows,' counting as bows.
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uhg pete! Stay away from your obvious Tilean army! IF you want to make a Tilean then make one, dont use DoW as your excuse!
Norse Murauders would be excellent candidates for a DoW army, they fight fanatically for loot and sail the high seas in long boats. Also whats your fix up with the skirmishing greatswords? It is not a Renaissance army THIS IS NOT EMPIRE!
how many times do we have to say it? Make them something cool like Arabian flachions, or Cathayan dragon warriors with pole axes, some thing to add flavor and a uniqueness to the list. this is a dogs of war army, it draws its ranks form all over the world. If you want handguns, make them Cathayan, if you want fast skirmishers, make them elves who only fight for good armies and dark elves who fight for bad armies. The old world is full of cool areas that are never looked at, Ind with mounted war elephants Nippon with ninjas, norse with long ships and beserkers, arabian camal troops who cause fear in cavalry anything!
come on man, use your frikin imigination
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I agree with Off Road Guy.
:icon_biggrin:
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uhg pete! Stay away from your obvious Tilean army! IF you want to make a Tilean then make one, dont use DoW as your excuse!
Norse Murauders would be excellent candidates for a DoW army, they fight fanatically for loot and sail the high seas in long boats. Also whats your fix up with the skirmishing greatswords? It is not a Renaissance army THIS IS NOT EMPIRE!
how many times do we have to say it? Make them something cool like Arabian flachions, or Cathayan dragon warriors with pole axes, some thing to add flavor and a uniqueness to the list. this is a dogs of war army, it draws its ranks form all over the world. If you want handguns, make them Cathayan, if you want fast skirmishers, make them elves who only fight for good armies and dark elves who fight for bad armies. The old world is full of cool areas that are never looked at, Ind with mounted war elephants Nippon with ninjas, norse with long ships and beserkers, arabian camal troops who cause fear in cavalry anything!
come on man, use your frikin imigination
Fluffwise, Dogs of War are primarily Tilean mercenaries, based on the Italian mercenaries of the Renaissance. The crossbow and pike are the two weapons most associated with them. I have tried to honor that in this list, and stay true to the source material. Adding in units from areas of the old world that GW has no intention of exploring would defeat the purpose.
There are a few non-human choices in the Old DoW list (Halflings, Dwarves, Ogres), but the rest of the list is pretty generic Renaissance type stuff. Norse marauders (viking berserkers) are the only human unit that does not fit in thematically with the Renaissance vibe, so I have dropped them from the list. The also have a distinctly "chaos" feel that I felt was wrong for an army that is otherwise very similar to the empire in terms of technology and style of warfare.
Now, if you want to field a unit of fast cavalry camel riders with bow, spear, and shield, you may do so, using the existing rules. But I'm not going to arbitrarily declare that all DoW light cavalry is Arabian Camel Raiders, because it's silly and limiting. Rather I am choosing to create a list that allows the player considerable latitude in custom designing units that will suit his vision of what he wishes his army to be.
Under the rules I'm working on, you'll be able to field units of ninjas, naginata wielding samurai, pirates, mongols, pygmy's or whatever... just pick the models you like, and use the rules that suit those themes the best. The player will be able to field an army that fits the existing Tilean theme, or he may convert some or all of his army to fit another theme (Ind, Araby, Cathay, etc), or he can mix and match to his heart's content.
Basically, I'm attempting to build a list with enough flexibility for the player to really go full out exotic if he chooses to, while still preserving the existing Tilean DoW theme that GW has long established. The basic list is going to be rather mundane and down to earth (but very flexible), while the Mercenary and Regiments of Renown will display some of the more exotic and esoteric units.
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Actualy the majority of mercenaries aren't Tilean, Tilea is made up of many Baronies, free towns, city states, republicans and every one is vying for power, so every one with the money is hireing mercenaries all the time, thats why Tilea is the breeding grounds for mercs', every one who's either on the wrong side of the law or who want to get some quick cash all go to Tilea, yes there will be Tilean mercs' but they wont be the majority.
On another note, have you considered using the Nationality special rule from the Crisis in Marienburg to represent all the different peoples that would be fighting together, you could even add to the list like adding Cathayen, Ind, DE, ect.
:::cheers:::
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Actualy the majority of mercenaries aren't Tilean, Tilea is made up of many Baronies, free towns, city states, republicans and every one is vying for power, so every one with the money is hireing mercenaries all the time, thats why Tilea is the breeding grounds for mercs', every one who's either on the wrong side of the law or who want to get some quick cash all go to Tilea, yes there will be Tilean mercs' but they wont be the majority.
True... to a point.
While mercenaries may come from all over the world, Tileans will still probably be represented in the greatest numbers, simply because Tileans are already there whilst other mercs would have to travel from thier respective countries (in smaller numbers) to reach Tilea. Similarly, the commanding officers will probably either be Tilean, or fight in a manner that the Tileans will understand (Empire, Brettonain, border princes, etc).
Tilea is the mercenary capital of the old world, and Tilea is where the DoW setting is derived from. The object of this project is to preserve the strong Tilean flavor of the original models/background/army list while still allowing the player a great degree of latitude to represent outlandish units from around the world. If you wish to convert up a unit of Arabian Dervishes, and use them as "counts as" troops, using X set of rules, be my guest. That's why the list is designed to be very flexible. But I am not going to add Arabian Dervishes as a unit choice. I am leaving it up to the player's imagination to decide how to represent the DoW troops in the list. I may offer some suggestions (as part of the fluff/modeling content), to get the player's imagination running but it's up to him to make the final decision.
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Again Pete I agree with your approach.
You can have a unit of 'wild men' subject to frenzy and people could model them as Arab Dervishes, Norse Beserkers or Cathayan Crazies ............... depending on the flavour of their army and its theme.
If you look at most of the Fanatasy races they tend to have generic units. It was more evident before they started things like ASF, but the basics are still there.
Kroxigor, Ogres, Rat Ogres, 40mm base stuff for example ............
We as Empire players probably tend towards uniformity - we pick a state and then use a couple of base colours as our pallette.
The nice thing about a DoW army is that it would allow you truly to build an army from across the world.
Personally although I have my standard Altdorf and Averland armies, I have my Kislevs, a Middenland army created from the basis of a CoU army, .......... and the minis squirrelled away in boxes in cupboards for my Estalian and Arari projects.
So out of 6 Fantasy Empire related armies, only 2.5 are really Electoral Province based.
The prospect of adding a miriad of themed units from a generic DoW army is very appealing.
PS.
Someone mentioned elephants earlier - oh yes - find a unit like a 'junior' stegadon - that can carry a few troops in a howdah.
Again it could be a concept that Elephants, Stegadons, Rat Giant, Bull/Minotaur could fulfill.
PPS.
If GW are to be enticed to reconsider DoW then it has to be in a way that is easy to integrate to the current rules set and existing armies.
It also has to be 'sales attractive' - encouraging sales of more plastic kits for conversions, or allowing them to make one-off units from other areas of the Fantasy world.
I think Philly said something about the areas outside the existing races like Tilea, Ind, Cathay, etc., and GW would not be developing them.
They really don't have to - they exist, because they are already mentioned in fluff, shown on maps and related about in the fiction.
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On another note, have you considered using the Nationality special rule from the Crisis in Marienburg to represent all the different peoples that would be fighting together,
Great idea! :icon_lol:
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Fluffwise, Dogs of War are primarily Tilean mercenaries, based on the Italian mercenaries of the Renaissance. The crossbow and pike are the two weapons most associated with them. I have tried to honor that in this list, and stay true to the source material. Adding in units from areas of the old world that GW has no intention of exploring would defeat the purpose.
Alright make you stupid Empire 2.0 list, sense your so hell bent on it
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Really, the way to see GW reconsider Dogs of War is a 2-part White Dwarf article. Part I is Lords, Heroes, and Rares; Part II is Core, Specials, and Who-Can-Hire-Whom. Feature the classic models (that are still available) and plenty of conversions, and one Battle Report of Tileans vs. Skaven.
While such a release didn't favor Blood Angels too well - since it went for simplicity - that same concept (simplicity) applies well to Dogs of War. They aren't - and shouldn't be - complicated. DoW magic items are a quarter page, and they don't need more. Units shouldn't have non-core special rules (besides Pikes).
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Alright make you stupid Empire 2.0 list, sense your so hell bent on it
Thanks for the vote of confidence! :icon_mrgreen:
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Really, the way to see GW reconsider Dogs of War is a 2-part White Dwarf article. Part I is Lords, Heroes, and Rares; Part II is Core, Specials, and Who-Can-Hire-Whom. Feature the classic models (that are still available) and plenty of conversions, and one Battle Report of Tileans vs. Skaven.
While such a release didn't favor Blood Angels too well - since it went for simplicity - that same concept (simplicity) applies well to Dogs of War. They aren't - and shouldn't be - complicated. DoW magic items are a quarter page, and they don't need more. Units shouldn't have non-core special rules (besides Pikes)
I don't think GW would take an article for WD from a non GW writer. I also don't think they would promote DoW unless they were ready to bring out some new sexy models. There's still a lot of rancor about the way they handled the Storms of chaos army lists so I don't think a half-assed WD Dogs of War list would go over well.
The object of this project is to create a workable "unofficial" Dogs of War list to stir up interest in Dogs of War as an army. If we can stir up a sizable amount of interest GW will take notice and hopefully give them a good revamp. I'm trying to stay true to the spirit of the old list, while ironing out some of the wrinkles that plagued the old ruleset.
As far as simplicity goes, I don't want to introduce a bunch of weird special rules for the army. I've taken a few liberties with army composition (ogres give you access to gnoblars, halflings get you a bonus hotpot, etc), but rules-wise there shouldn't be too much to worry about. Most of the crazier ideas I have will be reserved for Regiments of Renown.
I do want to give dogs of war an actual magic items list. This is one of the HUGE weaknesses of the list. Apparently GW figured that giving the Regiments of Renown a bunch of crappy and poorly thought out magic items would be a good substitute for a real magic items list for the DoW. The problem is that the regiments of renown totally suck, and it's kind of pointless to give out the few decent items to crappy heroes with fixed equipment (which also happens to be crappy).
At the present I'm fleshing out the core list.... adding stats, and equipment options, and all that other tedious stuff. Characters will come after I've got the basic list ironed out, but they will be pretty close to what they are now. I'm tinkering with some options for the characters but those may not turn out to be in the final version. We'll see.
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Been very busy at work the last few days, but here's a basic list of core troops, in a more polished format.
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Core Units
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Pikemen
8 Points/Model
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7
Unit size: 10+
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Pike, Light Armor.
Special rules: Pikes- Requires 2 hands, Fights in 4 ranks, Counts as a defended obstacle when charged from
the front, +1 strength when charged by cavalry, chariots, or monsters from the front.
Options: May upgrade to heavy armor for +2 pts per model.
One pikeman may be upgraded to Champion for 10 pts (+1 Attack).
One Pikeman may be upgraded to musician for 5 pts.
One Pikeman may be upgraded to Standard Bearer for 10 pts.
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Veteranos
8 Points/Model
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 7
Unit size: 5-10
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light Armor, Great Weapon.
Special rules-Skirmishers, Support Unit- You may have 1 unit Veteranos for each unit of pikemen in your
army. Each unit must be deployed at the same time as the pikemen unit to which it is attached, and must
be deployed withing 3" of the parent unit.
Options: May upgrade to heavy armor for +2 pts per model.
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Mercenary Company
5 Points/Model
Unit size: 10+
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7
Equipment: Light Armor, Hand Weapon, Halberd.
Special rules:
Options: May purchase shields for 1 point, or swap thier halberds for shields or an additional hand weapon at no cost.
One Mercenary may be upgraded to Champion for 8 pts (+1 Attack).
One Mercenary may be upgraded to musician for 4 pts.
One Mercenary may be upgraded to Standard Bearer for 8 pts.
----------------------------------------------------
Crossbowmen
8 Points/Model
Unit size: 10+
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light armor, Crossbow
Options: May take pavises for 2 points per model (+2 AS vs shooting/magic missiles)
Champion May upgrade his crossbow to a Tilean repeater crossbow (x2 shots) for 10 pts.
One Crossbowman may be upgraded to Champion for 5 pts (+1 BS).
One Crossbowman may be upgraded to musician for 5 pts.
One Crossbowman may be upgraded to Standard Bearer for 10 pts.
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Heavy Cavalry
19 Points/Model
Unit size: 5+
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 8
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Lance, Heavy Armor, and Shield.
Mount: Warhorse.
Options: May purchase barding for thier mounts for +2 pts per model.
One Knight may be upgraded to Champion for 14 pts (+1 Attack).
One Knight may be upgraded to musician for 7 pts.
One Knight may be upgraded to Standard Bearer for 14 pts.
One unit may carry a magic standard worth up to 50 points.
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Light Cavalry
11 Points/Model
Unit size: 5+
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7
Equipment: Hand Weapon
Mount: Warhorse
Options: May purchase Spears (+1 pt/model), Shields (+2 pts/model), and/or Bows (+3 pts/model).
One Horseman may be upgraded to Champion for 14 pts (+1 BS, +1 Attack).
One Horseman may be upgraded to musician for 6 pts.
One Horseman may be upgraded to Standard Bearer for 10 pts.
-----------------------------------------------------
A pretty vanilla list so far. Pikemen and Crossbowmen get free light armor (much good it will do them!),
Crossbowmen can upgrade to pavises (making the light armor worthwhile).
Mercenaries can be fielded with two hand weapons (like free company), if you like. This makes the mercs a little more versatile. I felt spears would be too good combined with pikes (and a bit of an anachronism besides), but an additional hand weapon seems more balanced.
Here are some ideas I'm considering:
Pistol option for heavy cav champion. An extra shot is always nice, but is it worth it on a BS 3 model?
Crossbows for light cav. The crossbow's move or fire rule means your fast cav have to choose between moving and shooting.
Should the heavy cav be allowed more than one magic banner?
Should light cav have a magic banner option? I think they'd be neat with a war banner, or something similar.
Paymaster's bodyguard as a 0-1 core unit.
Duellists reborn, but as a special choice (and with more options).
I'm dropping the Kislev troops, and will make them part of their own list. They'll still be hirable, but as allies rather than mercs.
What do you guys think?
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The Paymaster:
In the current DoW ruleset, the Paymaster is pretty lousy. He's a mediocre combat hero (like a warrior priest) who also functions as a BSB, but without the ability to take a magic banner. If he dies, the whole army takes a panic test (there goes your battle line!), and he's not exactly a hard guy to kill (thanks to a crappy selection of magic items). Sure, all your units will now HATE the unit that killed him, but that's small consolation if those units you were counting on turned tail and fled.
Oh, and you HAVE to take a paymaster. So you've got to give up a valuable character slot to field this turd of a character. I think I'd rather be forced to take an empire engineer!
So anyhow, do we fix the paymaster? Or just dump him in the bin of crappy ideas (intrigue at court!) that nobody liked? There have been a few people here who have argued that he should be kept, just for the sake of uniqueness. So here are a few questions for you guys:
Should the paymaster be kept?
Should he be a mandatory character, or should he be optional?
Should he take up a character slot, or should he be "free".
Should he be BSB, or should he serve some other function? (Support character of some kind?)
If a BSB, should he have the option of a magic banner?
What abilities, if any should he posess, and does he have any drawbacks?
:?
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What about throwing spears on the light cavalry?
What about Mercenaries carrying pistols?
I think champions of all units should have a wide equipment choice, to give units flavour.
To be honest, though the paymaster is hated, I think he would be inappropriate any other way.
He should be kept as mandatory. He should take a character slot. He should IMO be a quasi-BSB like he now, however don't exclude a capatin from being a BSB also. He should not be able to carry a banner (thats the BSB captain's job). Panic and Hatred I think are also appropriate.
What i do think however, would be that he can have the option to ride a paychest chariot thingy like Mydas the Mean's servant does. And that paychest can operate in much the same way.
Yes, I know that then becomes just another chariot buff thingy, however to be fair, it was already in the DoW list. Possibly even upgrade it to be a Paymasters Coach which would have higher toughness, better armour and more crew (think Mordhiem stage coach)
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Throwing spears would be really cool. The Roman medium cavalry utilized throwing spears in what was like faster version of the Caracolle. That way each missile had more hitting power than an arrow.
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Thet are doing something similar over at thta the new Dogs of War website . Have you had a look there for any further ideas ?
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Throwing spears would be really cool. The Roman medium cavalry utilized throwing spears in what was like faster version of the Caracolle. That way each missile had more hitting power than an arrow.
Javelins? For light cav? Neat idea. I'll consider that. One idea I've got for a RoR unit is a block of infantry with hand weapon and shield plus javelins (based on the classic roman legionaries), so javelins have been on my mind lately.
Thet are doing something similar over at thta the new Dogs of War website . Have you had a look there for any further ideas ?
I have not been to any of the DoW sites in awhile (they're awfully quiet). I planned on finishing this here before going over there to get their opinions. I'd prefer to finish my version before looking at anybody else's. After it's done, though, I'm willing to bring in other ideas to flesh it out more fully.
What about Mercenaries carrying pistols?
No. The mercs are supposed to be *basic*. Pistols will be available on the modified duellists, however. Actually, I'm thinking about adding a pistol option for the Light Cav. A unit of demilancers would be cool (pistol & spear), but I may just save that for the Kislev list.
What i do think however, would be that he can have the option to ride a paychest chariot thingy like Mydas the Mean's servant does. And that paychest can operate in much the same way.
Interesting. I'm thinking of something more like the corpse cart, as I don't have the rules for Midas.
Panic and Hatred I think are also appropriate.
Thematically, I can see that, but game-balance wise it's a disaster. The panic, I mean. That panic test could cripple or destroy a major part of the army, and on a mandatory character it's doubly cruel. To offset the increased risk to the whole army I'd have to make the list cheaper or more powerful. And then it would be VC all over again. Kill the leader and watch the army crumble, or get steamrolled. No thanks.
My current inclination is something more like this...
--------------------------------------------
Paymaster
75 points
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 4 4 4 2 4 2 8
Your army must include 1 paymaster. You may not have more than one paymaster. He may not be the general in any DoW army over 1000 points. The paymaster does not take up a character slot in your army.
Mount: The paymaster may ride a warhorse (+10pts) which may have barding (+4pts).
Equipment: The paymaster may have an additional hand weapon (+4 pts), great weapon (+4 pts), morning star (+2 pts), or halberd (+4 pts).
He may have a longbow (+10 pts), crossbow (+10 pts) , pistol (+7 pts), or brace of pistols (+14 pts).
He may wear light armor (+2 pts), heavy armor (+4 pts), or a shield (+2 pts).
If the paymaster is mounted, he may have a spear (+2 pts) or lance (+4 pts).
Special Rules:
Paymaster- The paymaster and any unit he joins are Stubborn. Paymaster counts as a Battle Standard Bearer (though he may not carry a magic banner).
Paymaster's Key- The paymaster's key counts as a battle standard for all intents and purposes. If captured by the enemy, all friendly units will *hate* the enemy who has captured the Paymaster's key.
-------------------------------------------------
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Mydas' paychest was basically a light chariot, that allowed units within 6" to reroll failed psych tests - as the sight of the money makes them fight on.
I would like to question though why a Paymaster cannot be the general? I know thats what the current rules are, but why not?
Stubborn on any unit he joins is good, and worth the increase to 75pts.
Maybe just any friendly units that have LOS to the paymaster panic? I think such a downside is still needed - now more than ever after you add the stuborn ability.
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Crossbows for light cav. The crossbow's move or fire rule means your fast cav have to choose between moving and shooting.
As I said, crossbow light cavalry are essentially useless. Don't bother.
One idea I've got for a RoR unit is a block of infantry with hand weapon and shield plus javelins (based on the classic roman legionaries)
Wait, I thought you said you wanted renaissance-y Tileans?
Mydas' paychest was basically a light chariot, that allowed units within 6" to reroll failed psych tests - as the sight of the money makes them fight on.
It's a pretty stupid concept though. Why would anyone take their money to the front line of a battle?
I think the paymaster panic rule is a remnant of 5th edition and should be removed.
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Crossbows for light cav. The crossbow's move or fire rule means your fast cav have to choose between moving and shooting.
As I said, crossbow light cavalry are essentially useless. Don't bother.
Eh, Crossbow Light Cav could be worth it if they're not charged on a purely compositional basis for their equipment (ie, 3pt human + 8pt horse + 5pt crossbow), since pieces don't compliment each other.
What about starting light cav at around 9 pts instead of 11, and making crossbows a 2 or 3 pt/model upgrade? Would that encourage you to take them, Rufas?
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Really, the way to see GW reconsider Dogs of War is a 2-part White Dwarf article.
Call me crazy, but I think the most likely way we would see anything resembling DoW is in an Ogre Kingdoms book. Merging them or Chaos Dwarves with Ogre Kingdoms will help both armies get to some sort of even footing and see a little support without making a whole new book.
Phil
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I'd love to see Chaos Dwarves make it into the Ogre Book - Ogres as-written are a little too dull and are one of the weakest armies right now; making it a "Hordes of the East" or some such could incorporate Chaos Dwarves, Ogres, and Hobgoblins in a single list, with plenty of variety and fluff. Great idea.
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Yes, I think that the most likely scenario for chaos dwarfs, and some DoW to get back, is to make them part of the new Ogre kingdom book.
Would surely add to them ogres if they could use some Chaos dwarf infantry and hobgoblin cavalry.
If we are to belive GW wants to keep up with their "Back to the roots" approach, I would not find it out of question that they fling in pikes as some special Empire choice. In an old Empire list, I belive Nuln had pikes.
In a way, it seems more beliveable that the DoW will be divided between many armies, rather than being an army on their own.
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Why not make the paymaster's race optional? Instead of a static stat line for the paymaster, make it an upgrade to an existing hero. Someone HAS to be the paymaster, but Why does the paymaster have to be human? Ogre, elf, dwarf..whatever. Maneater Paymaster? why not? the model exists. And that could open up other options as well (If paymaster of X race is in a unit of X race, the unit is unbreakble instead of stubborn?) as well as wpn options (maneaters still get their standard wpns options, just now they are the paymaster as well)...something like that.
Also, I worked for a brief time for GW about 8 years ago as a manager, and they absolutely DID accept articles from no GW employees (that's how alessio got started out!).
However, rather than submitting an army book, I would recommend submitting an article. Like putting the pegasus strategies into article form. You are more likely to get published (although GW owns your work and will not compensate, if I remember correctly) and then have opportunities later on.
Also, I think your pike/detachment system is a little too buff for the points cost. I don't think they should be allowed to use the 'detachment' rules "as is" maybe a "mercenary hesitation" rule...they can counter charge, but they fight after the enemy unit (unlike the regular empire troops) to represent the fact that they are fighting for coin (should we REALLY jump in there?) Something like that.
j
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Also, I think your pike/detachment system is a little too buff for the points cost. I don't think they should be allowed to use the 'detachment' rules "as is" maybe a "mercenary hesitation" rule...they can counter charge, but they fight after the enemy unit (unlike the regular empire troops) to represent the fact that they are fighting for coin (should we REALLY jump in there?) Something like that.
The pikes DO NOT use empire detachment rules. The Zwiehander units do not have the ability to support or countercharge. They are also capable of causing panic (although I might change that down the road). They are designed to offer a little bit of str 5 punch to the pike's wimpy str 3.
Of course, you don't have to have a zweihander unit support your pikes (they can go off to do other missions if you like), but I limited them to 1 unit per pike unit to keep them from becoming a problem.
The idea was to create a unit to support the pikes that made more sense than the duellists. Doppelsoldiers were often used with pike formations, so it fits in with historically (though GW takes plenty of liberties there), and seems like it would be a neat and useful unit type for a DoW army.
I'm tinkering with some rules for a new duellist type unit, so you can still field them if you like, but they will be more limited in numbers than they were before (but with more customizable options).
Why not make the paymaster's race optional?
Don't get me wrong... I like the idea of multiple races, but it makes things WAY more complicated than they would otherwise be. I have considered allowing 1 mercenary captain to represent another race (and/or some other types of bonuses), but I think the paymaster should be human for simplicty's sake. Yes, the ogre paymaster is groovy, but trying to make ogre captains a balanced addition is very tricky.
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One idea I've got for a RoR unit is a block of infantry with hand weapon and shield plus javelins (based on the classic roman legionaries)
Wait, I thought you said you wanted renaissance-y Tileans?
The legionary unit is not for the basic DoW list, but for Regiments of Renown, which are much more exotic than the standard DoW list. This could represent a Reman Legion, or some other type of exotic mercenary. Basically, the bread and butter DoW list will be rather basic, while the Regiments of Renown will be more funky and off the wall.
It's a pretty stupid concept though. Why would anyone take their money to the front line of a battle?
I think the paymaster panic rule is a remnant of 5th edition and should be removed.
I could never figure out why a glorified accountant (paymaster) would put himself on the front lines where he might lose his extremely valuable key.
:?
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Why not make the paymaster's race optional? Instead of a static stat line for the paymaster, make it an upgrade to an existing hero. Someone HAS to be the paymaster, but Why does the paymaster have to be human? Ogre, elf, dwarf..whatever. Maneater Paymaster? why not? the model exists. And that could open up other options as well (If paymaster of X race is in a unit of X race, the unit is unbreakble instead of stubborn?) as well as wpn options (maneaters still get their standard wpns options, just now they are the paymaster as well)...something like that.
I like this idea. A lot.
Except make it that the DoW book has to work in conjunction with another book. Simply take the basic combat hero of any current book, and add a 'paymaster' upgrade to him. That then opens up the DoW and all its (accessible) choices to you, so you can have a mixed army. Of course Core DoW choices would then drop off, meaning that core would need to come from the 'Parent' armylist, while the specials and rares could come from either.
Of course only some races can have paymasters, others (evil races) would work differently, but have a similar equivalent.
Kinda like Ally rules, but the allies units you can choose from are from a set list.
For example:
Empire Captain becomes a paymaster, Empire Core is only available Core. Can then mix in DoW RoR, special and rare choices to make a more varied list.
Orc Boss becomes paymaster, Orc Core is only available Core. Can then mix in allowed DoW RoR, special and rare chocies.
The key is having appropriate rules regading which race can take which unit.
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Why not make the paymaster's race optional? Instead of a static stat line for the paymaster, make it an upgrade to an existing hero. Someone HAS to be the paymaster, but Why does the paymaster have to be human? Ogre, elf, dwarf..whatever. Maneater Paymaster? why not? the model exists. And that could open up other options as well (If paymaster of X race is in a unit of X race, the unit is unbreakble instead of stubborn?) as well as wpn options (maneaters still get their standard wpns options, just now they are the paymaster as well)...something like that.
I like this idea. A lot.
Except make it that the DoW book has to work in conjunction with another book. Simply take the basic combat hero of any current book, and add a 'paymaster' upgrade to him. That then opens up the DoW and all its (accessible) choices to you, so you can have a mixed army. Of course Core DoW choices would then drop off, meaning that core would need to come from the 'Parent' armylist, while the specials and rares could come from either.
Of course only some races can have paymasters, others (evil races) would work differently, but have a similar equivalent.
Kinda like Ally rules, but the allies units you can choose from are from a set list.
For example:
Empire Captain becomes a paymaster, Empire Core is only available Core. Can then mix in DoW RoR, special and rare choices to make a more varied list.
Orc Boss becomes paymaster, Orc Core is only available Core. Can then mix in allowed DoW RoR, special and rare chocies.
The key is having appropriate rules regading which race can take which unit.
I like!
Maybe allow DoW core as "not counting towrds minimum core" and limited in some other way. Say, max 1 DoW core for each 1 or 2 "own" core?
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Why not make the paymaster's race optional? Instead of a static stat line for the paymaster, make it an upgrade to an existing hero. Someone HAS to be the paymaster, but Why does the paymaster have to be human? Ogre, elf, dwarf..whatever. Maneater Paymaster? why not? the model exists. And that could open up other options as well (If paymaster of X race is in a unit of X race, the unit is unbreakble instead of stubborn?) as well as wpn options (maneaters still get their standard wpns options, just now they are the paymaster as well)...something like that.
I like this idea. A lot.
Except make it that the DoW book has to work in conjunction with another book. Simply take the basic combat hero of any current book, and add a 'paymaster' upgrade to him. That then opens up the DoW and all its (accessible) choices to you, so you can have a mixed army. Of course Core DoW choices would then drop off, meaning that core would need to come from the 'Parent' armylist, while the specials and rares could come from either.
Of course only some races can have paymasters, others (evil races) would work differently, but have a similar equivalent.
Kinda like Ally rules, but the allies units you can choose from are from a set list.
For example:
Empire Captain becomes a paymaster, Empire Core is only available Core. Can then mix in DoW RoR, special and rare choices to make a more varied list.
Orc Boss becomes paymaster, Orc Core is only available Core. Can then mix in allowed DoW RoR, special and rare chocies.
The key is having appropriate rules regading which race can take which unit.
I like!
Maybe allow DoW core as "not counting towrds minimum core" and limited in some other way. Say, max 1 DoW core for each 1 or 2 "own" core?
The problem with that though is that all DoW Core is human. Taking a Orc Boss Paymaster, it seems a little weird that they could take a whole bunch of humans as 'not counting as Core'. Rather the special, rare and RoR choices give the racial variety.
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Should the paymaster be kept?
Should he be a mandatory character, or should he be optional?
Should he take up a character slot, or should he be "free".
Should he be BSB, or should he serve some other function? (Support character of some kind?)
If a BSB, should he have the option of a magic banner?
What abilities, if any should he posess, and does he have any drawbacks?
:?
Give him a War Altar... or as the Italians called it a Carroccio
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I think you guys are over complicating this list WAY too much.
DoW don't need a COMPLETE overall of all their units. Pistol Pete.. Please please please please please please please please please pleasssseeee get rid of those Zweihanders (really getting on my wick - sorry). Just stick with Duellists - they're (in my view) the best skirmishers in the game. Maybe give them some extra gear.
Paymasters are - in my view not as bad as you all make out. With some decent magic items they'll be more survivable. I do agree with giving them the ability to make every unit they're with the Stubborn ability.
For the rest of the units, just modernise them along with what GW have done with the rest of the Armies. By this I mean drop the points limit on them all - as most core units in the game have gotten cheaper.
Just remember this is a basically a Human army, and some of you are extremely close to making it an Empire one. Its not that far a leap to making a DoW list an Empire one.
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Why does DoW have to be essentially a 'human' army.....It probably should be essentially an 'Ogre' army, since that's basically their gig (more money means more food....)
The idea of being able to use about any race is exciting. It makes me want to buy a box of corsairs even though I don't play (or ever want to) dark elves. It makes me want to buy some dwarves, some ogres....it makes me giddy dammit! and having any one of them able to be a paymaster is cool. Dwarf paymaster, ogre, Dark elf....hobbit!!! yes hobbit! Hobbit paymaster for an ogre mercenary force. And then the core choices reflect the paymaster. Re-write the book or make it compatible (as was written above), whatever. But DoW is cool and should continue to be.
The only cool things to come out of the Storm of Chaos was the way the DoW whipped so much chaos beard and they NEVER took that first city! :eusa_clap: THAT is when I WANTED to have a DoW army.
The other cool things were those doomseeker models and cult of ulric.
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Sorry I haven't been around in awhile, but I've had a pretty chaotic month. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to put this little project on the back burner for awhile. I've got some health issues that need to be dealt with (my kidneys are loosing scary amounts of protein) and my job situation, which has been bad for awhile, is apt to get even worse soon. It'll sort itself out, but the next few months are likely to be *very* rocky for me.
After the summer's over things should smooth out somewhat. My health issues should be under control, and the job situation should be vastly improved. Also, I'll likely be coming back home to California soon which means I'll have access to all of my warhammer stuff. I won't make the mistake of moving across the country without my models again. :eusa_wall:
I may poke my nose back in here periodically, but I won't be doing updates for awhile. However, don't let that stop you from posting if you feel like it. :icon_mrgreen:
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I wish you all the best Pete.
We will always be here.
Even the ones you might not like :D
Regards
Acadian.
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Wow... I didn't expect this topic to reposted here in the 8th edition forum, but what the heck...
So... going back over the thread, one of the things I've noticed that's gotten the most squealing from the masses is the zweihanders. Now, I never intended for that to be their name, I simply intended that as a placeholder name until something more Italian sounding could be found.
So... They are now officially "Veteranos", veteran mercenaries with the cash for the good weapons and armor. They still serve as the hammer to the pikemen's anvil, but now you can give them the great weapon of your choice.
You're welcome. :closed-eyes:
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I've havn't got the new edition yet (on my xmas list) so what happened to the dogs of war, can you still use them in your army and I have noticed that only the halflings are on the games-workshop site or have I missed them?
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A good portion of the others are there too. I believe they are in 'collectors'.
Also, Welcome to the forum!
Just be careful though, this thread I believe is over 3 months old - generally we let some of the older threads stay down the list. If you have a quick look through the forum rules on the Introductions board, it should help you out with that.
But don't let that deter you - welcome!
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With the new Rule book and Army book, is still possible to take mercenaries? As the giant? I know that now Ogres are no more able to be recruted...
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The instructions for using Mercenaries are in the rules for mercenaries, including which units count as special choices in an Empire army.
They don't need to be mentioned in the 8th edition book any more than they did in the 7th edition book.
Of course with the changes to Ogre Kingdoms the DoW are limited to DoW Ogres who are basic bulls who don't get heavy armour, ironfists, or bull charge.
They do have the halfling hot pot though. Think a mortar with a small strength 3(6) template which ignores armour saves. It's half the price of a mortar too.