Topic: Swordsmen vs Spearmen vs Halberds

[KTG17]

So I have 60 State Troops to use between two empire armies - Reikland and Marienburg. I decided to go with a unit of 20 for each of something, and then have these 20 leftover. I thought of giving the Reiklanders 20 swordsmen, as I think 20 of them in white would just look awesome, and give the Marienburg 20 Halberds. I just thought that would look cool. Colorful uniforms with these big weapons. And I want each army to be different.

With the leftovers I thought I would divide them between the two, and give them a small 10 man unit of something else to add some flavor. But now I am thinking 20 swordsmen for each would probably be the better unit, and maybe give the Reiklanders 10 spearmen and the Marienburg 10 Halberds.

I know those smaller units wouldn't be very effective, but its about flavor as it is function. I want the armies to be different.

I thought of giving the Reiklanders 20 spearmen, Marienburg 20 Halberds, and then both get a 10 man Swordsmen unit. Since the Swordsmen have a better weapon skill I thought this would help them hold their own. But I am not crazy about a unit of 20 spearmen especially as I just did that with my 6th starter guys.

What would you do?

[Michael W]

I don't know what edition you're building for, but if you're in WHFB and not AOS, why not make the 10-man units Detachments to the larger parent units?

Spears are my least favorite for state troops - if I were you, I'd build only swordsmen and halberdiers, but just because I like them better.

[GamesPoet]

To math hammer or not.  That is the question.  I don't.

See, in my fantasy world, pikemen and spearmen are the way to go for my Averlanders and Tileans, and crossbows and handgunners, bowmen, and free company as detachments.  I leave swordsmen to my Marienburgers and Matoreans, and with halberds and handguns.

Go with your fluff is what I say, and have fun!

[KTG17]

I don't know what edition you're building for, but if you're in WHFB and not AOS, why not make the 10-man units Detachments to the larger parent units?

Spears are my least favorite for state troops - if I were you, I'd build only swordsmen and halberdiers, but just because I like them better.

Yeah I agree about the swordsmen and halberds, I am not crazy about the spearmen. I was just trying to create some variety.

So I guess 20 man Swordsmen and 10 man Halberds for each? Or the other way around?

[Zygmund]

So I guess 20 man Swordsmen and 10 man Halberds for each? Or the other way around?

I'd go for big blocks of halberds, supported by detachments of swordsmen.

You can also think this through the way the units are going to look when painted. Halberd units show the uniform, whereas swordsmen units mainly show the shields. (Unless your halberdiers carry shields in your hands. Then there's no big difference.)

-Z

[Novogord]

And why don't you go for 2 blocks of 30? You can then still make some detachments?

[KTG17]

So I guess 20 man Swordsmen and 10 man Halberds for each? Or the other way around?

I'd go for big blocks of halberds, supported by detachments of swordsmen.

You can also think this through the way the units are going to look when painted. Halberd units show the uniform, whereas swordsmen units mainly show the shields. (Unless your halberdiers carry shields in your hands. Then there's no big difference.)

-Z

Yeah I do like this idea... just wanted to be sure 10 swordsmen wouldn’t get waxed by most enemy units of 20, since I am using that default for most core troops if I have the models. Like Clanrats, Goblins, Orcs. I mean it seems that Swordsmen would hold their own better than 10 spearmen for example.

[KTG17]

And why don't you go for 2 blocks of 30? You can then still make some detachments?

Well, I want some variety.

I had originally intended to do all 10 man units just for that, but settling for a 20 and a 10 man unit.

[GamesPoet]

I like the concept of Novogord's idea.

[Warlord]

Which ruleset are you running them for again?
Technically big swordsman blocks are math hammer the best. Halberd or swordsman detachments have pluses and minuses depending who they are fighting.

I think you are going to look at them more than play with them.
I also think most other armies have spear core, and not many have halberd or sword core, so forget the spear option.

For looks, you could go 20 of one type, with 10 of the other.

30 models in a unit is overkill for 6th or 7th edition generally. A block of 25 swordsman was best in 7th in my experience. 20 was fine for 6th. 24 was pretty good, as you could get detachments of 12 models. Ranked 4x3 for some powerful combos.

Regarding fluff, personally I think Marienburg has sword core - sellswords. And Riekland halberds - traditional weapon of the empire. In the context of the whole army - which army has the greatswordsmen? Make them swordsmen, and give the S4 weapon to the others. Both armies need an ability to dish out some attackers higher than strength 3.

[KTG17]

Which ruleset are you running them for again?

6th with Ravening Hordes.

Regarding fluff, personally I think Marienburg has sword core - sellswords. And Riekland halberds - traditional weapon of the empire. In the context of the whole army - which army has the greatswordsmen? Make them swordsmen, and give the S4 weapon to the others. Both armies need an ability to dish out some attackers higher than strength 3.

Geez, wow. Never thought that about Reikland, and didn't know that about halberds.

I feel like both models, swordsmen and halberds, look great. I feel like swordsmen are more flexible, so I would prefer to lean on a 20 man unit of those, but you are right about the halberds, I don't see those elsewhere.

I also have greatswords that I am giving Reikland. So its either:

20 Halberds
10 Swordsmen
10 Greatswords

or

20 Swordsmen
10 Halberds
10 Greatswords

Maybe 20 halberds is better.

I guess 20 swordsmen for Marienburg works too. I just thought the halberd and colorful uniforms would look cool. What are sellswords?

I know it seems like I am hyper analyzing this, but once I build the models thats it!! Want to be sure I have a plan before I build.

[Zygmund]

The varios State Troop weapons are not province specific.

IIRC Warmaster stated that spears are more common in the eastern provinces while halberds are more common in the central & western provinces. That's about the only difference you find in the grand view descriptions.

Swordsmen I think were originally thought as support and specialist troops, like in RW renaissance period, but because of the Shield rules gamers started to use them in big blocks. Also Citadel/GW had a large number of various sword&board adventurers, so needed to incorporate them in the original Warhammer Fantasy Battles. Surely you can find Swordsmen units in all the provinces. Just like you can find Greatswords - whether they are the 3rd-5th ed support unit or the 6th-8th ed guards unit.

There were some specifics about Handgunners or Crossbowmen in different parts of the Empire, or between the Empire and Tilea. And some ideas about Archers, who were or included Bergsjaeger and Forstjaeger - a natural difference between the mountainous and forested parts of the Empire.

Mordheim had different kind of Empire Mercenary bands, but the differences were not in weapon choices. All warbands could have Swordsmen, all warbands could pick whatever weapons.

You can do whatever you like with your minis.

Sellswords = mercenaries, which Marienburg employs, but there's that wordplay with 'sword' in there. But they could as well be 'sellhalberds' or Tilean 'sellcrossbows', it's just a metaphor.

-Z

[GamesPoet]

Ok, so now I'm lost.  How many plastic infantry figures from 6th edition do you have to make into swords/spears/halberds?

[KTG17]

Thanks Z, that does make things clearer. I guess a small unit of swordsmen is better than a smaller unit of Halberds.

GP - I have 30 guys for both armies each. So was going to split 20-10 for each army. Just didn’t know who to assign to a 20 man and a 10 man.

[Midaski]

There was a tactical system designed by TVI which favoured blocks of swordsmen in a block of 24
4 Files and 6 ranks.

It wasn't designed to kill but to defend and win by combat resolution.
Swordsmen had better WS if I remember correctly, and with the shield had better defense.
The 6 ranks meant you could lose a few and still get the +3 rank bonus.

It was a bit more involved as your detachments were necessary as well, but you get the gist, and can search for more info on the full tactica.

TVI = The Village Idiot

There were 'extensions' of the system with a Battalion or Group concept - units working as a group.
Konrad von Richtmark espoused one such system.



Halberds may hit harder, but they needed to be alive to strike 
There was no step-up in 6th, and they were still T3 and only WS3 so if you lost 3 or 4 dead in your front rank you were on a hiding.

[Dihenydd]

My 2 cents

I was a TVI style player.

When you break down the math hammer it still did not make a whole lot of difference.  The conditions were rare you could take full advantage of the theoretical calculations.  Even doing the math, it really came down to three options (medium dice with better chance to hit, lots of dice with poor chance to hit/wound, medium dice with higher chance to wound).  So pick Swords, Spears or Halb's based on what odds you like better.  But you really won't see a difference battle over battle.

Therefore, I always went with what looked best.  Big blocks of men with pointy sticks of whatever variety and detachments of swords.  The reverse just looks silly.  Tactically you were just really looking for CR, not actual kills.  Kills were bonus points.

Thematically, you have large bunches of disciplined pointy stick men keeping the enemy in sight and smaller detachments of specially trained flankers with swords and shields to cause confusion and panic to break the enemy.  I went with the 3x3 detachment, not 5x2.  No ranged detachments, keep them in larger shooty blocks.

To summarize, assemble and paint what looks good, it really really doesn't matter.

[GamesPoet]

Recall all of this being an regular conversation routinely seen here years ago.

For my Averlanders, I used spears with free company, handguns, even an archer detachment.  It went with my fluff.

For my Marienburgers/Matoreans, I used swords with halberds and handguns.  It went with my fluff.

And I enjoyed crossbow units!

[KTG17]

Therefore, I always went with what looked best.  Big blocks of men with pointy sticks of whatever variety and detachments of swords.  The reverse just looks silly.  Tactically you were just really looking for CR, not actual kills.  Kills were bonus points.

Thematically, you have large bunches of disciplined pointy stick men keeping the enemy in sight and smaller detachments of specially trained flankers with swords and shields to cause confusion and panic to break the enemy. 

Wow this makes total sense.

In my head I was trying to combine what would be most likely with each army theme-wise, and still have some variety. I agree about the swordsmen too and while I like them, I guess It makes sense there would be fewer of them since they have a higher weapon skill. Sort of a slightly more elite unit than the halberds or spearmen.

So totally agree, swordsmen as a 10 man unit.

I really wanted some variety between the units of 20, but really not big on spearmen. Plus I just made a unit do 20 for my 6th edition starter army for Talabheim. So oh well I will do both units as Halberds.

Thanks for all your input guys!!

[GamesPoet]

Bah. Like Steve B ... it's fantasy.  Do what fits your fluff.

If looking at it historically, I see my spearmen as if pikemen, with halberds and swords as detachments, yet I use free company (two strikes each ... lol), archers, and handgunners.  Tell that to my 20 Marienburg/Matorea swordsmen with their halberds and handguns.  They'll kick your butt.

[KTG17]

Who the heck is Steve B. I keep seeing that name pop up.

[GamesPoet]

Steve B was a long time member of this website before he passed away.  His WFB collection was phenomenal.  His posts are all over the site.

Zak had met him, and has been handling the long term remembrances of his contributions to the hobby.

[Artobans Ghost]

Who the heck is Steve B. I keep seeing that name pop up.

Check out Zaks tribute to SteveB. I think it’s 89 videos of units so far. Completely and totally unbelievable

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=52812.msg1038498#msg1038498

There are 90 episodes now

[GamesPoet]

Here is a link to his profile on here ...

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?action=profile;u=4896

A person can click on the show posts, he had 4,613, and learn much more of the man.

[KTG17]

Who the heck is Steve B. I keep seeing that name pop up.

Check out Zaks tribute to SteveB. I think it’s 89 videos of units so far. Completely and totally unbelievable

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=52812.msg1038498#msg1038498

There are 90 episodes now

Holy crap this is blowing my mind. Did Steve B make those vids and Zak posted them? Or is zak making vids of his old collection pics?

That guy did some amazing stuff!!

God I feel so retarded. I can barely finish what’s in a starter set and others are finishing entire armies. 

[Artobans Ghost]

Who the heck is Steve B. I keep seeing that name pop up.

Check out Zaks tribute to SteveB. I think it’s 89 videos of units so far. Completely and totally unbelievable

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=52812.msg1038498#msg1038498

There are 90 episodes now

Holy crap this is blowing my mind. Did Steve B make those vids and Zak posted them? Or is zak making vids of his old collection pics?

That guy did some amazing stuff!!

God I feel so retarded. I can barely finish what’s in a starter set and others are finishing entire armies. 

All brought to you thanks to Zak. He makes, edits and displays em.
I asked him the size of his collection:

Quote from: Artobans Ghost on April 22, 2020, 06:15:29 PM
I believe that’s 85 episodes of different models. Just how big it was this collection?

Zak:
Its crazy huge!

between the unpainted and painted models it filled my two car garage