Topic: Demi-Gryphons unit size?

[Rommel44]

Hello again mates. Recently I was able to purchase 2x boxes Space Wolf Thunder Wolf Cavalry, and the plan is to convert them into Middenheim Demi-Gryphon knights. However, as I was building them, a buddy and me got into a debate on how many should be run in each unit to bring out there max potential. As it stands, I plan to run 2x units of 4x w/Lances in my army, however he believes that 3x would be enough and that I should go for the Halberds for the S5. Basically just wondering on how you plan to run your Demi-Gryphon Knights and how many will you be running in each unit.

[Nicholas Bies]

I can understand the halberds debate however heres why I wouldn't:

1. One of the greatest strengths of our cavalry has always been our survival ability, in essence our 1+AS. Taking Halberds means you don't get to use your shield and it's surprising how much difference a 1+ to a 2+ AS makes. Fact is the riders are not the killy thing it's the mount (it's always the mount even when just a str3 horse  ) by diminishing your save for +1str on a single attack you increase the chances of the model dying and loose 3 str5 attacks - the trade off doesn't seem good to me.

2. Though the halberd heads look cool the way the knights hold them looks unnatural and forced to me, lances and shields looks cooler imo.

As for unit size, no idea. It's a shame that monstrous cavalry still only make a single supporting attack otherwise I'd say 6 is the way to go. How wide is a 3 griffon unit and how wide is a 4?

[Rommel44]

Agree with you that the 1+ armor save is much more valuable then the S5 attacks, as it has saved my bacon more then once. And as for the bases, they are 50x75mm, so I think 4x could still get into the flank of an enemy unit without too much trouble, but be able to hold its own against units. Gives you 4x more S5 attacks (including the stomp) as well as an extra S6 attack on the charge, which is always a good thing.

[Joey_Boy]

I guess it's a points thing. Running 4*2 with musicians and banners(warbanner is great for MC units!) will provide solid hammers that can smash things up on their own if they are at full strength. However 2*3 or even 3*3 with only musicians are enough to smash smaller support units on their own while having enough attacks to win combats when flanking for the Infantry.

So how will you play them? Smash up big units or support you infantry by clearing out flankers and then going in?

[rhavien]

As for unit size, no idea. It's a shame that monstrous cavalry still only make a single supporting attack otherwise I'd say 6 is the way to go. How wide is a 3 griffon unit and how wide is a 4?

A unit of 4 is 1 wider than 3 Now seriously. The bases are 50mmx75mm.

[Botor]

I guess it's a points thing. Running 4*2 with musicians and banners(warbanner is great for MC units!) will provide solid hammers that can smash things up on their own if they are at full strength. However 2*3 or even 3*3 with only musicians are enough to smash smaller support units on their own while having enough attacks to win combats when flanking for the Infantry.

So how will you play them? Smash up big units or support you infantry by clearing out flankers and then going in?

Well, are you sure that you are talking about the same thing? The question is about demigryphs, not knights.  No point in taking second rank, because only riders will attack. And 3x1 will smash bigger units if not hordes. 1+ AS and 9 wounds, my halberdiers would definetly have hard times with them. Especially with life wizard support.

3x1 would be my choice, otherwise they are too wilde a formation. 4x1 is a possibility, but its only good for frontal assaults, in what case you might need a character with crown of command.

[Elarti]

After a couple of games running three with lances, I would not bother with the halberds... The amount of damage output is enough to win the combat with a fair ease, with the 1+ save. In my short experience, the second round of combat has simply been 'cleanup'

[Joey_Boy]

I guess it's a points thing. Running 4*2 with musicians and banners(warbanner is great for MC units!) will provide solid hammers that can smash things up on their own if they are at full strength. However 2*3 or even 3*3 with only musicians are enough to smash smaller support units on their own while having enough attacks to win combats when flanking for the Infantry.

So how will you play them? Smash up big units or support you infantry by clearing out flankers and then going in?

Well, are you sure that you are talking about the same thing? The question is about demigryphs, not knights.  No point in taking second rank, because only riders will attack. And 3x1 will smash bigger units if not hordes. 1+ AS and 9 wounds, my halberdiers would definetly have hard times with them. Especially with life wizard support.

3x1 would be my choice, otherwise they are too wilde a formation. 4x1 is a possibility, but its only good for frontal assaults, in what case you might need a character with crown of command.

Ah, sloppy typing on my part I'm afraid. I was suggesting running 3 units of 3*1 with lances and only musician command upgrades as they hit hard enough to handle themselves against all but Horded units with character support, or dedicated combat troops with s6 and re-roles to hit. As a unit of 3 with musician only costs 184p it's nothing compared to what they can do and the flexibility they add to the list! 

They are also more nimble and can get around on their own while still providing enough omph in combat to break anything sticking to the front of a infantry regiment.

[zifnab0]

4 wide, 1 rank, lances.

Maybe 3-wide if you're stretched for points, but 4-wide will maximize frontage and attacks.

That is, assuming 20x20mm bases really are 20x20 (they're not), or at least you play it that way.

Lances give you +1 armor save in close combat, halberds don't.  Now if you could take greatweapons...that would be a tougher call.

[Botor]

I guess it's a points thing. Running 4*2 with musicians and banners(warbanner is great for MC units!) will provide solid hammers that can smash things up on their own if they are at full strength. However 2*3 or even 3*3 with only musicians are enough to smash smaller support units on their own while having enough attacks to win combats when flanking for the Infantry.

So how will you play them? Smash up big units or support you infantry by clearing out flankers and then going in?

Well, are you sure that you are talking about the same thing? The question is about demigryphs, not knights.  No point in taking second rank, because only riders will attack. And 3x1 will smash bigger units if not hordes. 1+ AS and 9 wounds, my halberdiers would definetly have hard times with them. Especially with life wizard support.

3x1 would be my choice, otherwise they are too wilde a formation. 4x1 is a possibility, but its only good for frontal assaults, in what case you might need a character with crown of command.

Ah, sloppy typing on my part I'm afraid. I was suggesting running 3 units of 3*1 with lances and only musician command upgrades as they hit hard enough to handle themselves against all but Horded units with character support, or dedicated combat troops with s6 and re-roles to hit. As a unit of 3 with musician only costs 184p it's nothing compared to what they can do and the flexibility they add to the list! 

They are also more nimble and can get around on their own while still providing enough omph in combat to break anything sticking to the front of a infantry regiment.

okay, I understand now. I have took it granted that you were talking about ranks

[DivineVisitor]

3x1 is my build of choice. I plan to use them for flank attacks and since most big units are only around 100mm deep only 3 Demigryphs would manage to strike in combat more often than not.

[Mathias]

I also asked this question a few days ago.  For more discussion on the matter, see here:

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=41711.0

[Raulmichile]

I think 4 at most in a 3 models wide is ok.  The fourth model is to absorb inevitable wounds on the road to the enemy thus conserving the 3 wide front at the time of the first cc they take part in.

If you are confident in not losing models to shooting/magic before the unit charges something then I think 3 is ok.

[zifnab0]

3x1 is my build of choice. I plan to use them for flank attacks and since most big units are only around 100mm deep only 3 Demigryphs would manage to strike in combat more often than not.

2 Demigryphs are 100mm wide, but you can also count corners, so you can get 2 extra in combat.

3 would be good for most flank attacks, especially if you're already engaging the front of the enemy unit with a horde or other wide unit.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The best unit size must be > 3. Otherwise, GW would have put only two models in a box. 

[Raulmichile]

The best unit size must be > 3. Otherwise, GW would have put only two models in a box. 

So true, like old state troops box containing 19 models...

[Minsc]

4 is the optimum unitsize.
3 works if you don't have the pts/money for one more/another box.

And lance is the obvious choice of weapon.

[Nicholas Bies]

The best unit size must be > 3. Otherwise, GW would have put only two models in a box. 

HAHA QFT mate.

One thing about the unit size. I run a unit of 4 Mournfangs and I'm seriously thinking of expanding this to 6 or even 8. While it would be overkill and the extra attacks matter very little what does matter is the body count.

I played a game against Skaven today and I lost 2 mournfangs before they got out of their deployment zone (tournament practice so nasty nasty lists). People know units like demi-griffons, mournfangs etc are nasty and effective and our opponents are silly, if they are stupid then after a couple of games they won't be 

Demi-griffons will nearly always be a high priority target so you need to make sure you're running a unit that is survivable as well as effective.  if that for you and your LGS environment is 3 then go 3, if its 10 then go 10

[Eighty]

its a real pity they are only t3, i was looking forward to having them be the toughest thing in our army 

I have used three with lances, they have been super effective

[Nicholas Bies]

THey do have 3 wounds each though...

[Marcus_Octavius]

The ideal size for War-Chickens is: 3x units of 7x Knights with Musicians only

1248 points total, so just barely fits within 2500 point army restrictions.

[Joey_Boy]

The ideal size for War-Chickens is: 3x units of 7x Knights with Musicians only

1248 points total, so just barely fits within 2500 point army restrictions.

I hope your running them with 2 GotE on Griffons and a bare minimum core! All-in is what it's all about!

[Joasht]

Do you guys even bother with command in such a tiny unit?

[Minsc]

On 4 DGK's? Yes, Full Command all the way.

[Marcus_Octavius]

The ideal size for War-Chickens is: 3x units of 7x Knights with Musicians only

1248 points total, so just barely fits within 2500 point army restrictions.

I hope your running them with 2 GotE on Griffons and a bare minimum core! All-in is what it's all about!

No Pegasus-riding GotE & Captains.  These fellas get Look Out Sir rolls from artillery and will be able to snuff out enemy artillery with a turn 2 charge from a safe spot.

Followed up by a Core of Horde Inner Circle Knights with Crown of Command wearing Priest.