Topic: The Province of AVERLAND (+ The Moot)

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Found these Warcry cards on ebay. Got a chuckle, then realized how much I miss the Mad Count of Averland 



Maybe Hans Leitdorf can take over? I mean he is a Grand Master and all, he has the experience

[GamesPoet]

At least we can pick a leader (me )

Patience is a virtue in Averland.

p.s. death to halflings

Killing halflings has been outlawed.

[Von Breden]

Found these Warcry cards on ebay. Got a chuckle, then realized how much I miss the Mad Count of Averland 

Indeed, what a great combat tactic he used - a furious charge!

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Aye. Hans Leitdorf sounds like he makes a good Grand Master. The quote on the card "The Leitdorf Maneuver" - is that from anywhere? Fluff from a book? I think it was probably just made up, like most quotes there, but maybe someone recognizes it.

Stupid GW killing off Marius. I thinking about joining in with Rufus and just believe he is not dead and exclude that poorly written fluff.

[GamesPoet]

Hans could be one idea for the new Elector Count.  It will be interesting to see how GW develops this.

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Hans could be one idea for the new Elector Count.  It will be interesting to see how GW develops this.

C'mon we're talking about GW here. You mean if they develop  this. 

We're more likely to see them just invent some lame story and replace him outside of continuity - or never do it at all. There could be a real interesting story with the Alptraums vs the Leitdorfs but that would require good fluff writers.

[GamesPoet]

My meaning about development was refering to the generation of a new Elector Count for Averland, not if it was going to be Hans or not.

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Oh I know. I do however jump at any opportunity to bash GW for leaving me hanging on this issue 

[Irisado]

Hans Leitdorf doesn't seem like too bad a replacement to me, especially if his specialist tactics revolve around cavalry, as this would fit quite well with background of Averland in my opinion.

[GamesPoet]

If I recall, Hans is also in commmand of the Knight's of Sigmar's Blood at the moment.  It would be interesting to see this story develop as well.  Besides, currently this knightly order is the only one shown on the GW website without a model painted and only a picture.  I actually like the artist's rendering of the order, and although I'm not big into the whole Sigmar thing, I could see myself painting at least a handful of knights to represent them on the table top anyway.  Perhaps this will all be resolved closer to when they decide to put out another addition of the rules and/or Empire book, and decide to provide some new knights.

[Von Breden]

Oh I know. I do however jump at any opportunity to bash GW for leaving me hanging on this issue 

I actually like it. Marius Leitdorf was a very nice character, but it gives us some interesting options and GW might develop it further into a very interesting background. Might.

[GamesPoet]

What would be really interesting is for someone to create a campaign revolving around the different characters who might be vieing for the Elector seat in Averland, and then have an internal war that brings out folks from over their borders, from Wissenland, Nuln, Reikland, Stirland, Talabecland, Ostermark, taking sides with the various Averlandic factions.  Heck, their could be folks traveling from the other provinces coming to take sides as well.  The winner of the campaign would then have their main character appointed as Averland's new Elector Count.

Hmmm ... so who else, besides Hans, might be in the running?  Anyone know who the heir is of the Elector Count previous to Marius?  I realize Marius' wife Helena came from that line, but did they have a child?

[Von Breden]

Off course not, because then he'd become the Elector Count, not?

In a story I've been writing for over a year now (which is in Dutch, sorry!) the main antagonist is named Wilfried Toddvoller. He has been appointed by the Emperor to investigate the political climate in Averland and find a nobleman worthy for the position of Elector Count. This nobleman would receive support from the throne. However, so far Toddvoller has only worked to further his own ambitions. It seems as if he's out for the position himself.
Thought I'd mention it, it might be usable in this campaign should it ever be hosted.

For other factions it's probably best to come up with some characters that each focus on different aspects of life, such as your own general (I'm thinking about the near-exclusion of cavalry and a focus on wine in your fluff). The Moot should play quite a large role, too, demanding compensation for Leitdorf's disastrous Moot campaign.

EDIT: The question is: is Hans Leitdorf actually interested in the title? Is it even legal (I can see some law against it)? And if so, how come he hasn't taken it up yet?

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Well he hasn't taken it up yet because GW has been to lazy to write anything about the subject for the past two editions. Hans Leitdorf seems to be the most likely. According to the The Enemy Within campaign, when Magnus the Pious died the kingdom was supposed to pass to his brother, Gunther von Bildhofen, even though it didn't due to a complex story. So there is historical precedent.

In Sigmar's Heirs, it says that the Leitdorfs seized power through genius unconventional means. I don't recall exactly what it says (someone go see), but if I remember correctly it was brilliant. Before the Leitdorfs the Alptraum family (which means Nightmare in German). From what I have read, the Alptraums were a tough and cruel ruling family. This timeline I found that cites it sources states the following of the Alptraums:

2502- Riots in Averland (town of Streissen) from shortage of food. Elector Countess Ludmilla Alptraum resolves this brutally.

The only other ruler of Averland mentioned is Count Grunwald:

2433- Emperor Wilhelm takes military action against Elector Gunnwald of Averland in the case of the Pudding Tax Revolt.

Check out the timeline:
2400-2499 - http://www.freewebs.com/kalevalahammer/timeline24002499.htm
2500-present - http://www.freewebs.com/kalevalahammer/timeline2500.htm

[GamesPoet]

Off course not, because then he'd become the Elector Count, not?

Hmmm ... not if a claim was made that the child was illigitimate.  Maybe Helena didn't have a desire for the seat before when she let Marius take it instead (maybe he convinced her), but perhaps she has had a falling out with the child's real father, and never really liked Hans anyway, and therefore has other ideas now.  Perhaps the father of the illigitimate child wants to serve as regent because the child is too young, but even Hans objects to this.  So we already have at least three factions ... Helena, the illigitimate child's father, and Hans.  And if we want to include other factions ... there might be a noble who is secretly a vampire count deciding he wanted a shot at the seat, or perhaps an Orc leader who decides the time is ripe to lead a waaagh out of the mountains to raid the country side.  

(Hmmm ... if this is set up, it could be an event to run for the summer, if GW doesn't come up with something.)

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Are you running off the details from the wikipedia article?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empire_(Warhammer)#Averland

Be careful, as some of the details are contaminated by the website CriticalHit.com - where 90% of the data is simply made up. There are indeed the two families (Leitdorfs and the Alptraums). I am unsure about the illegitimate child story.

I read in Sigmar's Heirs that the Count of Streissen is Kastor Leitdorf. Marius is Kastor's Uncle, so I assume this would make him Hans Leitdorf's son? Maybe Marius has other brothers or something, but we have another character in the play.

[GamesPoet]

I just finished reading those time lines you posted, Karl.  Thank you.  I saw those once before, but didn't read them as fully as I did this time.  From reading those time lines, it seems that GW doesn't really keep much of a list of various Elector Counts.  Most of it is rather sketchy, which is ok with me.  Perhaps this means we will never really know what becomes of this situation, and thus plenty of reason to make one up as part of a campaign event.

And no, I haven't seen wikipedias approach to this, but I'll read the link you posted next.  Although, I believe there was a post some where on this Averland thread that discussed the possibility of a child, but the concept of it being illegitimate I just made up.

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Oh my bad, I thought you read it somewhere. It is true however, this would make a good story/campaign/side-story. Maybe GW will resolve this in the summer with a global campaign like Nemisis Crown. You'd find Karl Voss with the Leitdorf family.

[GamesPoet]

I just read the blip on wikipedia link you provided, but no mention of a child.  I also found that other post I was recalling, and it was a quote from WFRP's newest edition that you provided regarding an "eldest unnamed son" succeeding Marius.  This means I might need to revise the original idea.

Also, I noticed from those time lines that Marius died in 2520, the Storm of Chaos occured in 2522 followed by what was called the Dark Years from 2523 to 2526, and the last of which is when the Nemisis Crown event occurs.  Then the timelines show 2527 and 2528 with nothing much listed yet.  This leads me to another item to contemplate ... when to set something like this on the Imperial calendar.

[Von Breden]

Jakob von Breden, too, would join Hans Leitdorf. My fingers are itching, I'd love to contribute to this campaign should it ever develop further (and this time I wouldn't quit halfway through like last summer... ).

I actually despise the mentioning of the child. At least give it a name!

Kastor Leitdorf sounds very interesting to me. He would oppose the Alptraums quite radically due to their oppression of his town. However, would he be a faction in his own right, or would he join his father?

Speaking of which, is Hans Leitdorf actually interested in the title? Remember that he leads an entire order of Sigmarite templars. His faith and his knightly duties might be more important to him than political ambitions. Off course, he would play a role in the civil war, if only to put an end to the infighting and provide peace and stability. What are your thoughts?

[GamesPoet]

I imagine that there would be quite a number of Averlanders that would join the supporters of a Leitdorf faction, so perhaps having some descension within the ranks of the Leitdorf family as part of the background story, might cause folks to not all pick the same side.  Besides, with Helena and Marius' eldest son entering the picture, if the background spoke of a rift between Hans and Helena, then this creates some tension for at least two factions, some fighting for Helena and Marius' child, and Hans wanting to at least rule until the eldest child is old enough.  Perhaps there is still a way to work in the idea of illegitamacy, since there is talk of the child being the eldest, and perhaps one faction could be fighting for the right of the second child to rule instead.  And then there is the idea of looking up all that background info that I believe is on the madalfred site regarding the names of the various nobles in charge of the various Averlandic towns, and see what connections might be found or worked out there.

[Von Breden]

I imagine that there would be quite a number of Averlanders that would join the supporters of a Leitdorf faction, so perhaps having some descension within the ranks of the Leitdorf family as part of the background story, might cause folks to not all pick the same side.

True. However, a father-son strife doesn't fit for me. IMHO it's better to let Kastor Leitdorf be the son of another Leitdorf brother.

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Anyone have Sigmar's Heirs around? Someone check out the gazetteer in the averland section for the names of nobles and such. Turns out that Kastor Leitdorf was created by Alfred Nunez in some fiction works. It even conflicts with itself. In one Gazetteer he wrote, Kastor was the count of the Sigmarite stronghold of Wuppertal, but in his Elementalism 2 he was Count of Striessen.

I would go with whatever Sigmar's Heirs lists. Unless we have other sources.

[Von Breden]

I have downloaded it (temporarily, I might buy it if it's good) and have just started reading. I'll have a look at the Averland section right now.

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Nunez lists these Leitdorfs in power in his Gazetteer:

GRENZSTADT - Count Jens Leitdorf
HEIDECK - Countess Magda Leitdorf
STREISSEN- Bailiff Franz Döbreiner for Leitdorf family
WUPPERTAL- Count Kastor Leitdorf

I might be wrong about Kastor Leitdorf, I don't have my Sigmar's Heirs sourcebook to fact check but I saw it referenced in another writing as the source.