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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => Empire 8th Army Book => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Special => Topic started by: ZehKaiser on May 12, 2009, 07:43:15 PM
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If you already own them you're in luck. If you're a new player reading this and don't own any yet, then this thread might be pointless for next edition since people won't be buying the models! :icon_lol:
But seriouly, these guys were great when the book came out, but from HE and beyond I think they deserve a boost. They aren't quite living up to what the newer books get for their points. Don't get me wrong they're almost there, but they need a bit of a tweak. They compete for the ever coveted empire special slots, that alone is a big strike against them.
My suggested fix so far is them getting a 50 point magic banner option without a points increase for it. I think everyone can agree on that. (also griffon banner going back to 50 points, but that's a topic for a different thread)
I'm not sure what else to give them to both keep their character and also make them a bit better without putting them over the top. I don't think they are in line for a price change, maybe 1 point less max. Maybe something like base S4, or re-roll panic due to their grizzled vet status and discipline...
Just brainstorming here. Any other ideas?
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Empire general makes 1 unit core/2000 pts ?
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Some ideas
Maybe give them a bodyguard style rule where they gain immune to fear and terror if the general is in the unit...
Allow them to confer their leadership onto friendly units within 6 inchs... These guys are the elite of the elite in the imperial military they would inspire other troops to hold fast....
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A potential option could be to give the Greatsword rule "Zweihanders." Due to the swords being of such exceptional length (the blades being about 6 feet long each), they ignore ASF when charging. Alternatively, giving them S4 or A2 would be nice.
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S4 is a bit much. As is A2.
That said, I can't think of anything not seemingly overpowered.
Units within 6" reroll failed panic tests as they are inspired by the greatswords display of bravery (blatantly ripped off the Longbeard rules).
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I'll probably make a post of my own on this one but my proposal is to make Greatswords into SKIRMISHERS! I mean lets get to the point of what the greatswords are and that's a nasty unit of colorful whirling steel and death. Skirmishing greatswords cannot take detachments nor magic banners.
on the note of Greatswords, it should have been a hands down decision that the General of the Empire should be allowed to designate one unit of greatswords as core. If the VC can have skirmishing Ghouls, we can have skirmishing Greatswords. Elf swordsmasters fight in ranks because they're so skilled with their greatweapons they have learned not to lop one another's heads off in tight formation.
-Grutch
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True enough, Zweihanders were not line troops in the same way pikes were. Shock troops, suicidal almost.
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I'll probably make a post of my own on this one but my proposal is to make Greatswords into SKIRMISHERS! I mean lets get to the point of what the greatswords are and that's a nasty unit of colorful whirling steel and death. Skirmishing greatswords cannot take detachments nor magic banners.
on the note of Greatswords, it should have been a hands down decision that the General of the Empire should be allowed to designate one unit of greatswords as core. If the VC can have skirmishing Ghouls, we can have skirmishing Greatswords. Elf swordsmasters fight in ranks because they're so skilled with their greatweapons they have learned not to lop one another's heads off in tight formation.
-Grutch
They can have Skirmishing Ghouls?!!? How?
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Unfortunately, the new Ghouls in 7th ed cannot skirmish (though that is absolutely stupid IMO).
The Magic Banner option is appropriate, as is the General allowing 1 unit as Core.
I think the problem with Greatswords isn't so much with them, as it is with the other army books...
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Perhaps we should contribute two entries each....one if the next edition warhammer goes back to the 6th edition days (better balanced and less uber units).
I would like something like this:
Verloorn Hope - Greatswords are used to break up formations throwing themselves into the weapons of enemies crushing through the ranks. Greatswords remove the rank bonus of units charged by them and the unit canīt use the hand weapon shield bonus. The Unit receives one hit at base S of the enemy models.
S 6 with great weapons should be no Problem in any case nearly every other comparable elite unit has S 4 in the profile and as White Lions, Executioners, all dwarven Elite, loads of orc units etc have S 4 that should be fine.
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Verloorn Hope - Greatswords are used to break up formations throwing themselves into the weapons of enemies crushing through the ranks. Greatswords remove the rank bonus of units charged by them and the unit canīt use the hand weapon shield bonus. The Unit receives one hit at base S of the enemy models.
And just combine this with skirmishing... Cool. Allthough with this rule the GS would be like most cavalry, "break enemy in charge or get eaten"
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Yes except that they would retain their CR as they are still infantry and can be used in large blocks as 20 perhaps even grant them immune to fear as a verloorn hope company ....hmm well perhaps make this a special if the general enters the unit.
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I think the problem with Greatswords isn't so much with them, as it is with the other army books...
I'm gonna have to side with Warlord here; I think our army is nearly perfectly balanced. It's the others that need to be brought into line.
I just can't see any changes to the greatswords THEMSELVES that wouldn't be overpowered. Maybe skirmishers, but that's a maybe. I do agree that GoTE should make one core, especially since nobody EVER seems to use his ancestral heirloom ability anyway since our banners are a joke.
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Well perhaps grant the empire overall an immune to psych or immune to fear/terror banner
Banner of the demonslayer 50 points the unit causes fear....bajinnnng I would get it once in a while. Almoust every army of late has a mount that causes fear for the hero which would grant immune to fear for the unit the character accompanies and to be immune to fear AND be stubborn is just great.
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Because of the Fluff I quite like the idea of onlyt allowing one unit of Greatswords and then only if you have an GOTH. I see no reall reason to change them, though if they are the best of the best maybe they should be raised to WS5. I donno though because our captains are only WS5. But that is the only change I would make.
That said I understand that we need heavy infantry and I would interduce them as a core choice in the form of dismounted knights with the following stats
M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 I3 A1 L8 8points
Full plate, greatweapon, handweapon
May exchange greatweapon for hand weapon + shield (free)
May exchange great weapon for two handweapons (free)
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They need to be able to take banners without a GoTE around, let them take the Warbanner at the very least
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Or reduce them to 8 points a pop and leave them how they are cheap cannonfodder with 1 A S 5
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How about initiative four?
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... with greatweapons?
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Yeah you could always strike with your hand weapon....
"Well but wouldnīt greatswords be second rate swordsmen?"
"Hmmm...yes but I take stubborn any day!"
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Yeah you could always strike with your hand weapon....
"Well but wouldnīt greatswords be second rate swordsmen?"
"Hmmm...yes but I take stubborn any day!"
Make Greatswords base strength 4 and you could get it juuuuuuuust right. :engel:
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:biggriin:
They are a special choice and should be special and right now I never use them because they canīt compete with other special choices and even worse they canīt compare even with our core choices.
With so many fear causers and fast, uber killer units I donīt see any use for them.
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This would seem to you quite odd, but I would give greatswords ASF. Why? Two handed sword is not some sow big smashy thing like two handed hammer or axe (usually about 110 cm long when wielded by a regular men) used by other races (they have S4 and so they can carry a smashy heavy thing to final S6). Two handed sword is lighter and much longer (about 140 or 150 cm long), we poor humans have only S3, so we cannot afford massive arms of mass destruction to final S6, but we have lighter and longer tools.
I do historical fancing and anybody who does so could tell you, that if you are facing a guy with a two handed sword and you have anything else (shield and sword, two swors . . .) he always gets the first attack (or atacks) thanks to superior reach of his weapon.
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Well ....another ASF will lead some guys to go on a killing spree, also a spear is still longer than a two handed sword therefore spear units would cry like hush babies.
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In real fight, you are mostly in advantage with a two handed sword against a spear . . .
But it will be maybe better to just give them no penalty for GW and I4.
It would be nice if they had A2, but I think it will be odd. I think that no infantry or cavalery unit should have more than A1 (not counting, additional weapons, frenzi . . .). The simple fact that some chaos or WC stupidities have A2 and still have weapon options (and frenzi) is bad and spoils the game. That should be left for monsters and such things.
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Anyone think of allowing Greatswords to take Greatsword detatchments or make their detatchments stubborn? That teamed with a General making one unit Core could be a hit home.
Just another idea to throw in the mix.
-Shadoweyed
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In real fight, you are mostly in advantage with a two handed sword against a spear . . .
I have to disagree with that, unit to unit, spearmen would have the advantage against a sword regiment in the real world (if there is such a thing).
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In real fight, you are mostly in advantage with a two handed sword against a spear . . .
I have to disagree with that, unit to unit, spearmen would have the advantage against a sword regiment in the real world (if there is such a thing).
Very much so, in the real world, so to speak, one use greatswords were put to was to disrupt spear/pike formations, but simply hacking the heads off the pikes or spears
But ultimately a unit of pole-weapon equiped troops was always at the advantage due to flexibility and the ammount of sheer power that can be brought to bear.
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How about Greatswords being toughness 4.
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skirmishers/ immune to fear would be a pretty neat combination to have as a variant "linebreaker" greatsword unit, similar to the huntsman upgrade for archers.
Maybe 12 points/ model.
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Hmm, making greatswords skirmishers would actually make them interesting enough to give them a spot in my army :smile2:
Currently I find it too hard to visualize them fighting in formation. Or actually I can visualize it...
"Okay, has anyone seen my left ear? Did you check under that orc? No, this is not mine... Dammit Marcus, next time be a little more careful with that sword of yours!" :roll:
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Greatswords are fine. Only problem I have with them (using 2 blocks of 20) is fear... Which is far too overpowered. GW overused fear in some armys like demons and undead. It is truly unbelievable why skeletons or zombies and the likes cause fear. I would rather fight a skeleton then a warrior of chaos...
I hate it when I need to roll snake eyes with my stubborn GS just because there are more skeletons... well duh...
Greatswords should be immune to fear.
Perhaps a point drop but iam not sure on that. They seem quite ok except the fear thing.
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Greatswords are such a cornerstone to any Empire army. In the current edition, Greatswords have good armor (full plate 4+) and are stubborn. Two very attractive pieces
for this unit. However, being GREATswords I have always felt that they should have the Killing Blow rule. Being humans, 2 attacks or toughness 4 for anything less than a Hero or Lord choice would be overpowered. Opinions on this? Thanks.
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Killing blow is a good solution in my opinion. They are skilled swordsmen afterall. Dont forget the banner!
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To comment on the initial post, I completely agree that as far as elite infantry goes, Greatswords were underpowered (in my opinion). Compared to, let's say Black Guard for DE. These guys have it all! And for only 13 pts. per model!
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I would go for an a la carte menu of all of the above. So that a player could buy the skirmishing forlorn hope skill for his troops or the main unit could exchange their larger ungainly parade zweihanders for more practical blades that strike at +1 on initiative (halberds) Have inner circle great swords as another option with a bump to their S+1
and make it so that only GS parent unit's can take GS detachments easy.
skirmishing/forlorn hope +2 pts (I would tie them together)
halberds - free
inner circle +1 s +1 pt
KB +1 or 2 pts
in theory a greatsword could be bought with all upgrades for 15 points ws4 S5 (adj) fight on initiative and with KB
not bad
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So for 3 more points than a bloodletter, we get......... Hmmm
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It would be great if Empire had more than ONE choice for an elite foot infantry unit. Bringing back the old Reiksguard foot knights would be great, and allow them to have a variety of upgrade options.
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It would be great if Empire had more than ONE choice for an elite foot infantry unit. Bringing back the old Reiksguard foot knights would be great, and allow them to have a variety of upgrade options.
I smell the Foot Knight/Full Plat Swordsmen topic.
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i agree that if a general is taken in their unit then they should be immune to psychology, that would make them immediatly more useful.
I also like the skirmishing option, but they should have that be an option, not a standard.
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I would say include foot reiksguard who are basicly GSs with HW&S and give greatswords skirmish and killing blow
This way we get 2 elite infantry units
One to form a solid core with some swordsmen and make a nice place for a general
And one to run about taking heads off
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Give them shields and the option to fight with their great swords one handed with +1 strength or two handed at +2 strength. Ignore penalties for fighting with great weapons, that is they fight in initiative order and bump their initiative up to 4.
Yes they're uber swordsmen, but then they should be uber swordsmen.
0-1 unit as core if you take Karl Franz or an Elector Count (General of the Empire).
I suppose some sort of bodyguard rule where they're immune to fear, terror and panic so long as they're escorting the army General would be nice too, although I think stubborn is supposed to represent that.
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Nah, a la carte thats 16 variations of an elite infantry without taking into account equipment options. Part of the art of war is confusing and befuddling your opponent so options for the "simple" army's generals to try to double guess about you are a good thing.
For example if your enemy has decided in his head that your unit of vanilla gs's is fully equipped and supported and changes his tactics to go after instead your helblaster because that seems to be a more survivable frontal attack, you have succeeded as a general.
The best things in life for a table top general are the, drop removals, forehead slaps and self recriminations of his opponents. Oh yeah, and the favour of the dice gods.
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What about adding a rule:
To the Last man!: Greatswords are reknown for their Resilience when confronted with terrors and abhorations that would send other men running.
Greatswords never automatically break from combat by being outnumbered by a fear or terror causing enemy. They also do not have to take terror checks. However, they are still not immune to fear or terror and must take either test when charged or charging enemies of this type, suffering all ussual consequences when failing these tests (not being able to charge or hitting on 6's).
Mabye its a bit too good, but it definately makes them more viable.
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simplify it to be that they never autobreak for any reason. This way they have to be broken by an actual die roll against their stubborness. not easy to do.
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So super easy. Make them immune to psychology.
Immune to psychology and stubborn. I think that would make them worth their points. It's almost justifiable from their fluff too. They take vows to stand their ground no matter what stands against them.
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ya know on second thought the complete immunity to psyche sits more right with the forlorn hope type of troop than the formed unit of professionals who might look forward to spending their paycheck later on. I'd be inclined for that reason to tie the immunity to fear etc. to the forlorn hope rule than just any old GS's.
This can also cause your enemy to second guess his tactics, facing you with uncertainty. Which is ultimately a good thing.
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Would making them str 4 and make them weild Zweihanders(count as halberds, make them AP if Gswords need a buff) make them overpowered, they are the same as always but strike at initiative^^
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Would making them str 4 and make them weild Zweihanders(count as halberds, make them AP if Gswords need a buff) make them overpowered, they are the same as always but strike at initiative^^
It would be great :happy:
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In my opinion Greatswords are fine as they are. Giving them basic strength 4 is way too much... as well as giving them shields (Reiksguard foot knights)...
Chaos Warriors are influenced by the Chaos Power! Evil entities summoning troops to 'spread their dark will'... Well... You expect remarkable strength and endurance (toughness and high armour-save that is!) from these troops! Greatswords are heroic figures giving their best selves in the battlefields...but still, they're only humans :oops: For this reason, I like the idea of fathsie, 'confering their leadership to other units within 6 inches'. 'Other units inspired by their presence' is a good explanation (even though it's similar to the 'detachments use their parent's unit leadership' rule)
I'd suggest that upgrading only one greatsword unit to 'Carrorburg Greatswords' (for e.g.) giving them +1S and counts as a rare choice instead, would be a fair rule too..
Finally, I don't like the idea for Greatswords to be skirmishers...just think it this way:
On the battlefield the courage is constantly tested. Man has to overcome the fear of death (not as easy task as it sounds :laugh:) and in order to push yourself fighting on even against impossible odds, you need to rely on your comrade. And that's what greatswords are all about: Companionship overcoming the terror of loss..
On the other hand, to achieve this, you need strictly military discipline and constant train! Greatswords are the absolute achievement and feature that state troops can display and the true pride for any professional army!! You expect from such a unit to follow pure military attitude! And what's the best way to do this but holding your ranks when moving and marching? (Can you imagine a world were Greatswords are 'skirmishers', while Evil Chaos Warriors and Goblins move in ranks like a disciplined army?! :-P :roll:)
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Finally, I don't like the idea for Greatswords to be skirmishers...just think it this way:
On the battlefield the courage is constantly tested. Man has to overcome the fear of death (not as easy task as it sounds :laugh:) and in order to push yourself fighting on even against impossible odds, you need to rely on your comrade. And that's what greatswords are all about: Companionship overcoming the terror of loss..
Yes, but a greatsword requires tremendous range of motion; you'd be hard pressed to utilize a greatsword worth a damn in such tight blocks.
Can you imagine a world were Greatswords are 'skirmishers'?
Yes. It's called the Real World, circa the 17th century or so. Our army is based off the real-world Landsknecht armies, where two-handed swords were practically their trademark. Greatswords WERE skirmishers that rushed pike units, and broke the heads off so the army's regulars would not be impaled during charges (this is also why pikes later started bringing handgunners with them, to shoot greatswords). So, technically, skirmishing greatswords would be historically accurate.
I understand that the idea behind fantasy is both to suspend disbelief and have fun, and that the nature of fantasy is that things are not the same as the real world. In the Empire, greatswords are the solid defensive blocks, not skirmishers against pikes, and so I am fine with them never gaining skirmish (I understand the difference it makes in their 'feel' and fluff). The fact is, combat is a matter of tactics, and evolving to beat the enemy. Greatswords could easily be skirmishers (or hell, even scouts!) if that evolution made sense compared to their enemies. Whether it DOES or not (or is balanced or not) is a question for the developers, not I.
As for changes to them, I think they're one of the best balanced units in the game I think using them and state troops as a template for all armies would be an excellent way to bring the game back into line. Say "here's the empire state troop, that's a baseline core unit," and build other cores around it, comparing cost and stats to keep it balanced, then do the same with greatswords and special.
Pity we don't have a rare unit that isn't artillery of some kind, or we could have a baseline unit for every slot against which all others could be compared!
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I've got to agree toro. Iatroblast, military discipline has nothing to do with whether or not a troop stays in ranks and files, take a look at our current world soldiers for one example. In essence a modern soldier is a skirmisher and yet they all have a sense of battlefield discipline arguably better than their rank and file predecessors.
S4 is way too much huh? Well I guess we better summon the inquisition to investigate those inner circle knights because they can't possibly be human with their profile.
Toughness also is not purely an indicator of a model's physical resilience. It is a part of a mathematical equation stating how hard it is to damage a given profile. In otherwords it can represent anything from armour, rubbery skin, stone, wood, deft evasion, active use of a shield, etc. Balancing the factors of toughness, ward save, armour save and multiple wounds is just what we are all haggling about. Afterall a GotE is also just a man with the same amount of blood in his veins as a great swordsman or even halberdier, why does he have a higher toughness or multiple wounds.
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In my opinion Greatswords are fine as they are. Giving them basic strength 4 is way too much... as well as giving them shields (Reiksguard foot knights)...
I agree to a certain extent, we don't need a super-powerful unit. However, we deserve a unit that's worth the points. Compared to most elite infantry, greatswords are definitely getting the short end of the stick. Yes they have good staying power thanks to stubborn and full plate, but not as good as many other units. And they hit a little harder than our state troopers thanks to their great weapons, but still not that hard. If they'd specialize in either defensive or offensive capabilities they'd probablbe more efficient, but that's not the case.
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Yes. It's called the Real World-
Real World... has Goblins? ! :laugh: :icon_razz:
...Greatswords WERE skirmishers that rushed pike units, and broke the heads off so the army's regulars would not be impaled during charges...
It's obvious that I wasn't aware of that :cry: And I think that they should -somehow- resemble this in the game.
...military discipline has nothing to do with whether or not a troop stays in ranks and files, take a look at our current world soldiers for one example...
Those were different times and I insist(!) that I can't imagine a military unit marching to war without holding it's ranks. Though you do have a point: modern soldiers do have military discipline as well (if not more!)
Well, I like to think of an Imperial army with strict discipline, consisting of units that hold their ranks and files. But, maybe making Greatswords skirmishers, wouldn't change the general attitude (military feeling) of the army. After all, there are a lot of other troops who can do that (swordsmen, halberdiers...).
The only problem, would be that we would have to reconsider which units should hold their formation when marching (for e.g 'flagellants', 'Chaos Warrios', 'Skaven', 'Goblins' etc. )
...If they'd specialize in either defensive or offensive capabilities they'd probablbe more efficient...
Good thought
In my opinion they should be offensive (that way they would resemble Landsknecht armies better)
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I like the idea of S4 Greatswords personally. I mean, come on! Hefting a 6-foot long blade around takes strength on its own, but wielding it with skill? That's S4 material!
I also like them being immune to psychology as long as a General of the Empire is in the unit. The Army Book and other books are littered with stories of Greatswords and Electors fighting until the bitter end!
And as I've said before, we HAVE to lobby for better troops or we'll be outclassed beyond hope by next edition!
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I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that modern troops have more discipline than earlier armies. While our current troops are extremely disciplined and brave, many civilizations took this much further, ie Spartans, Romans (although Rome didn't take this as far as Spartans), etc.
Otherwise I think Greatswords should be S4 as der Hurenwiebel said, if IC Knights have it, why don't our elite infantry? Skirmishing would also make much more sense considering the weapons they are using, but it might look a bit strange for skirmishing units to have ranked detachments.
The only problem, would be that we would have to reconsider which units should hold their formation when marching (for e.g 'flagellants', 'Chaos Warrios', 'Skaven', 'Goblins' etc. )
The only unit I find strange that has formal ranks (from another army book) is Ghouls, they're supposed to be scavengers, joining the army to look for food and quick kills. Otherwise for Zombies, Flaggies, Chaos Warriors, Goblins, etc. rank bonuses are their to represent their "push" how they just swarm at the enemy , and it affects combat, best way to represent this is with ranks, even though they may not actually have a proper formation.
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Skirmishing would also make much more sense considering the weapons they are using, but it might look a bit strange for skirmishing units to have ranked detachments.
Agreed.
I wholeheartedly support the skirmishing idea but it does also mean that the greatswords should no longer be able to take detachments.
And immunity to fear sounds fine to me, they are supposed to be already selected from the bravest after all... :happy:
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consensus;
Excellent do you all agree on the point cost of the option, and that it should be an option rather than mandatory. Speaking of skirmishing of course. Next, what about the KB, and halberd options?
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I'm not totally sure about them being skirmishing, being the elite of an army based (mostly) around rank-and-file troops, but I think it could be good if they were scouts as well as skirmishers - then they could be used like some sort of elite strike force.
What do you think about them having Toughness 4 - I mean, Empire Greatswords are meant to be Empire troops who are hardened veterans and survivors - "On one occasion during the Battle of Blood Ridge, Albrecht Hoefner, the last survivor of von Menscher's Blackhelms, recieved his promotion after defending his regiment's colours for an entire day against repeated attacks from scores of bloodthirsty tribesmen and mutated beasts" - Empire army book
I think that could also solve the problem of them dying quickly fom other high strength ranged and melee troops too (especially because of striking last).
So what do you think about T4 Greatswords, everyone?
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so long as a reasonable price tag were attached... :mrgreen: and :::cheers:::
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...what about the KB, and halberd options?
Don't know what 'KB' stands for, but halberds would be MY favorite choice for this highly-armored stubborn unit! +1 Strength, Strike in Initiative order and DoW already use them as bodyguards! Two thumbs up! :lol: (Plus, it would make the Emperor MOST happy!)
...what do you think about T4 Greatswords, everyone?
I'd say no, because they'd look a lot like Orcs (statistical) rather than humans, but you give a lot of good reasons to boost their Toughness AND a good story-explanation......
I'll think this a little more....... :icon_confused:
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KB = killing blow. always kills on a 6 to wound no armour save, similar to poison.
Ludwig Schwarzhelm has this skill among others
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give them a ward save :::cheers:::
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10 Points a Greatsword is the right price I think, the only problem is that most other armys elite are undercosted what what they do. Maybe I 4 because well, they are an elite..
What if you give them their banner option back and when joined by the Count or general that the unit is immune to psyologie, pretty fluffy I think. Give them the option to upgrade one unit in the army to +1 strength as someone suggested as the best of the best!
just my 2 cents :ph34r:
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WOW I cant believe i missed this thread for so long!
I take a unit of Greatswords in my 2250 every time but lately I have been taking a GoTE on foot with them too. Every game I play they emerge unscathed as the opposing player avoids them like the plague and goes after my warmachines and cavalry which dont die as easily as he thinks and my greatwords end up taking an objective or beating a big unit or something like that.
I vote keeping the greatswords option the same and maybe giving them s4.
I used to do Marxbruder historical fechtschule back in brisbane and that is basically learning how to fight with a zweihander while wearing full plate armour. Exactly how the 16th-17th century soldiers of the LANDSCNEKT used to fight.
I agree with Toro about the way they fought but not as a zweihander. Forlorn hope were the men who suicidally rushed into pike formations and hacked them apart so the regular infantry and pikes could close crush the battle line.
Zwei handers would engage heavily armoured troops and tear them apart.
I know from the personal experience fighting with two handed swords for months. All the strikes led into another attack while all our defensive blocks would lead into an attack again, while this doesn;t sound like much I was taught to aim for points in full plate armour that i could push my sword into. Under the arms, back of the knees and elbows, neck, wrists, ankles.
All these places are weak points in the armour and can be capitalised on.
Remember that Greatswordsmen in the fantasy world are facing differant opposition then in our real world.
The pike formations which changed tactics so much are not relevant in fantasy where the only army to get pikes is DoW and that list isn't viable any more. The closest I'd say is High Elves as their spear formations are basically greek phalanx.
The GS in the empire are supposed to be the best fighter in the land. Recruited for their extreme sacrifice for their lord and land; stubborn represents this according to GW.
I think give our GS base s4 and the option for a magic banner(50pts)
GoTE allows one unit to be taken as core. Only Greatswordsmen can take GS detachements. I personally would never pay 10pts a model for a detachement but I think it should be there, the GS are specialised state troops after all.
But give us another infantry unit for rare and I would definately say Forlorn Hope.
15 pts a model, M4 WS5 BS3 S4 T3 I3 A2 LD10
full plate, greatsword, hand weapon.
Special rules: Immune to Psychology (these men are fearless, they are men who are trained to charge without restraint into enemy formations and cut around them until death, the only problem with this is they cannot flee from charges so this i thought is justified for points.)
Skirmishers.
( the reason I chose this is because these men fight in a loose formation in order to use their swords to maximum effectiveness in combat. I know from their stats they are godlike for men but with the skirmishing rule it takes away their rank bonus and all ability for combat res. which is a huge downside.)
Champion 15pts. M4 WS5 BS3 S4 T3 I3 A3 LD10
Has Killing blow.
(I know I know it sounds crazy, a man with three S6 KB attacks??? are you crazy DC? But think about it, out of a company of men where none expect to survive the battle a man would emerge who survived every battle, the men cut down around him while he alone remained, he would have to be very effective at killing
. I was gonna say free but I thought why not just give him a points cost people will complainabout free killing blow.)
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I still like the A la carte menu.
As for the forlorne hope, they would and should play somewhat like a cross between flaggies and greatswords. In real life the forlorne hope would be made up of convicted criminals or other desperate men looking to make a really quick if risky buck. They wouldn't neccisarily be armoured less well that their more balanced compatriots and wouldn't neccisarily be better trained. But giving a warhammer general the opportunity to create a unit of human troll slayers with immune to psyche that is something to think about.
what's the going rate for the stubborn skill 2 pts? how bout calling "I2P" 3pts?
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Yes thats true, I'm pretty sure historically the forlorne hope were mostly made up of volunteers, criminals and men sentanced to death.
Maybe itp skirmish and ws4 with hatred?
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that could work, we'd have to price out hatred too, or make it so a warrior priest could join. This is why I like the idea of a menu based profile with the numbers of builds availiable you could have GS's with a points cost from 7- 16 points, which covers all the possibilities from town militia armed with a GS to imperial foot knight with a hate on for everybody and everything who stands in his way. Are you convinced yet? State troops shouldn't have the same psychology flexibility but in my opinion should have similar equippage flexibility, this way we'd only have two basic state troops profiles, ballistic and CC with a menu of options to arm, or defend them with.
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I think they shouldn't be skirmishers. I feel in bigger games like 40K and WFB things are represented rather than "as-is". So while they may look tightly packed, they're moving around and fighting as trained.
I feel that the General should allow one unit to be Core. That seems pretty obvious to me. I'd take them, right there, if I could have one of them be my mandatory Cores. Give them detachments and send 'em on their way. Also, General or not, they should have access to a damn magic banner (50 points or less). Again, it's pretty obvious they should have that option at least. In addition, if the General is with them, they are Immune to Psychology. I see the Greatswords as the Inner Circle for the Templar Grandmaster, and I believe the fluff backs that up rather well. I see that as pretty reasonable for 10 points.
Otherwise, keep their rules as they are. S5 is fine and WS4 is enough. We're humans, after all. I disagree with Killing Blow. That's just power creeping. It's like the Instant Death thing going on in 40K right now: everyone and their grandmother has "causes Instant Death on a..." post 5th Edition. He may be a human Guardsman captain, but with his special sword, he causes... INSTANT DEATH. On a roll of 6 to wound... INSTANT DEATH. Forgo all attacks for one that causes... well, you get the idea.
We're Empire, gentlemen. We break our backs to win the day, not our Codex/Army book.
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I only put killing blow in for the champion of the forlorn hope. . . i wasn't gonna give it to every model lol
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Maybe not a skirmisher, but how about they have a bigger base, like chaos warriors and marauders do, just to represent how their formation is looser than other troops, although I guess you would have to buy new ones, if you already have greatswords.
I think it would be good if greatswords had ws 5 though, since they are the some of the most skilled warriors in the Empire, yet at the moment have stats which are inferior to the stats of common swordsmen.
Or do you think they could count as armour piercing, to make them like anti-knight troops?
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Only thing the greatswords really need is a shield. Then you could run a 2+ as swordsmen (give them I 4) or if that doesnt sound right give them a shield for shooting and a special rule that says they must use the Greatsword.
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Or just don't bother with the shield because it would take them back to twelve points.
S4 is what they need, initiative is nothing with a greatsword. . . ASL is not fun :-(
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Stuff about there being no pikes in the fantasy world so not really relevant to have a forlorn hope unit.
Excellent post, exactly what I'd write. :::cheers:::
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The solution to power creep is not more power creep.
If they're not up to scratch, then a points reduction is in order, 1 point should do it.
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Well, sure make the best empire infantry horde so armies like DE with repeaters at -1 A/S can rape us harder.
I say s 4, not too big of a deal.
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I would like it to be said of the Empire army is like a box of chocolates some of which have mouse traps in them. You never know what you're gonna get and you kind of afraid to take a bite.
I vote for the "build an Elite" option menu.
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I would like it to be said of the Empire army is like a box of chocolates some of which have mouse traps in them. You never know what you're gonna get and you kind of afraid to take a bite.
I vote for the "build an Elite" option menu.
Hmmm, why not make a standard choice for state troop. basic profile, basice pts cost and basice hand weapon/light armour combo. for e.g. 4pts
Add in special rules like bodyguard(GS build) +6pts,
veteran(+1 WS and I) +2pts. vets have access to H/A and shield or F/P
Pikeman(+2 I, ASF when charged to the front, fight in 4 ranks, s4 ap against anything with us 2 or more) +3pts
shield+1pt
halberd* (*free)
may exchange halberd for spear* (*free)
handgun+3
Crossbow+2
thoughts?
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a bit of an interesting idea though I would completely seperate training/ psych from equippage so that in theory you could build forlorne hope flagellant GS's or elite profile stubborn pike men, or for that matter anything the fluff of your army required. This would include such creations as village great swords, (militia profile GS's) peasant sword and bucklermen (no armour sword and buckler), this is beginning to blend a bit with the core troopers threads. But that is OK because this concept allows an empire player to really build state troopers on whatever pattern he desires. Maybe create a points cost threshold seperating the specials from the core, 10 points perhaps as this is currently the threshold in the army book.
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Flamberge
These vicious flame-bladed swords are enormous in comparison to the duelling weapons used by the Swordsmen of the State Troops. Only the most skillfull and powerful warriors are ever given the training to master such terrifying blades and it is a nigh-sacred duty to a Greatsword to wield one on the battlefield.
Great weapon, Strength bonus upped to +3 when charging.
:happy:
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Have it as a weapon upgrade for the counts champion. . . :happy: but it is a 'single' handed weapon
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On the CChampion, he could do with some boost indeed. Per normal rules he is a Greatsword Champion, not much of a Count's Champion. WS5 and S4 maybe... Or give him a 25 magic item allowance. :3
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That would certainly make him worth the points of taking him.
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Hello all, new to the forums and just happened across this thread and had a suggestion. What if rather than binding the rules for greatswords weapons to those in the rulebook or adding s4 to the model we add a special rule for their weapons, zweihanders flamberges ect..., that gives the weapon armor piercing. This adds to the greatswords ability to get wounds through without giving them a s6 attack and doesn't give others like sword masters even more powerful attacks. Also gotta say the idea for magic banners and 25pts of magic items on command is pretty awesome.
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Hello all, new to the forums and just happened across this thread and had a suggestion. What if rather than binding the rules for greatswords weapons to those in the rulebook or adding s4 to the model we add a special rule for their weapons, zweihanders flamberges ect..., that gives the weapon armor piercing. This adds to the greatswords ability to get wounds through without giving them a s6 attack and doesn't give others like sword masters even more powerful attacks. Also gotta say the idea for magic banners and 25pts of magic items on command is pretty awesome.
Once again one might raise a question on why the best smiths of the dwarves and elves don't have armour piercing on their great weapons? Or all of their weapons for that matter.
My pick, once again, would be:
S4
A magic banner worth 50 pts per unit
And possibly one unit to core with a GotE.
You might add to the lot an option for magic items for the champion, if you liked, but it's not really that important. Adding to the Strength of one of Empire's most elite units in an enviorment set by other armybooks as it currently is is hardly powercreep. I mean, for taking a special slot S4 just is not that a big deal. Right now they're just - well, I couldn't say bad, but bad at doing things they should be even moderately good at doing. And IC knights have S4!
Once again I could raise the old question: If some fancy pansy pointy eared elves have S4 and great weapons (I know they wrestle with lions, but they're bloody elves), why not the elite of the Empire? Just, why? And if the Greatswords are left with their S3, WHY does a pointy eared freak have a better physique when their whole race is more slender and faint? That's the whole idea. God.
Sheesh... enough of rant. Anyways, just S4 and magical banners would make them good enough for me. You could actually do some damage by accident when facing, well, things they should in theory be facing! It's sad to see them lose again and again to night goblins.
Well, not propably night goblins, but to the core of other armies. They're just hardly elite on global standards, and where I'm honestly one of those people to shun over powercreep, I can tell when a unit could use a bit of a boost. And a bit doesn't have to be big.
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Hear hear.
I mean when our "elite veterans" who are supposed to be the best fighters in the empire, often having to fight to the last man in order to be promoted get hacked apart by orcs, basic orcs mind you.
It just doesnt cut it.
The greatswordsmen should be tough bastards, like uber tough, the best fighters in the land. having fought in the armies of the empire for years, beaten the odds time and time again.
Held attacks that would have slaughtered any other man and attacked near impossible odds and won.
Do they sound like the greatswordsmen of our Imperial armed forces?
I say no.
I think full plate is under powered in this game.
Full plate encloses you in a suit of steel armour fully. There should not be any cracks or gaps in that armour except to see from and to move your joints.
Thats it, period.
I should know, I have worn the stuff.
Make full plate 3+ save on foot and give them ws5 s4 t3 i4 a2 ld8/9 immune to panic. magic banner option. Champion to take differant weapon options, shield, greatsword, maybe give him 25pts magic points allowance/
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If some fancy pansy pointy eared elves have S4 and great weapons (I know they wrestle with lions, but they're bloody elves), why not the elite of the Empire?
Because their slender physique is just enough to keep beardy human muscle-men thinking that they are vastly superiour to their freaky-eared counterparts just because the Elves don't pack the over-shot fantasy muscles humans have in Warhammer. Human ignorance is Elven bliss. :happy:
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If some fancy pansy pointy eared elves have S4 and great weapons (I know they wrestle with lions, but they're bloody elves), why not the elite of the Empire?
Because their slender physique is just enough to keep beardy human muscle-men thinking that they are vastly superiour to their freaky-eared counterparts just because the Elves don't pack the over-shot fantasy muscles humans have in Warhammer. Human ignorance is Elven bliss. :happy:
Yeah but Elves all look like girls and can't grow beards. Ha.
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To Derek, where I generally agree, I would have to disagree with your proposal to add to the strength of Greatswords.
First of all, I'm just comparing the greatswords to our actually the best elite unit around, which are the Inner Circle knights. Those dudes are the toughest of the tough and meanest of the horrible - on human standards. True, they're far from questing knights and those horrible grail knights, and I'd say they're still lacking something that would make them top notch, but as they stand they're fine. Greatswords are basically at the same level in heroism and feats of arms, so on that basis they should have S4.
In game mechanics the strength increase would bring them to the damage dealing class they were, in a way, supposed to be, I'd presume. At least at today's standards they're just weak. They shouldn't be weak, they ought to be medium. I don't even want them to be a kick ass deathstar of doom, since that just doesn't fit into the play style of Empire. I'd just want them to be a bit more useful against things of today.
I4 would be okay, since the swordsmen have that too. The knights, however, for some reason do not, and basically that's not a big deal. Just cosmetic. A2 is just overkill - that is reserved only to the most badass creatures of the Old World, as in Swordmasters and Chaos Warriors. And rightly so, I might add. Greatswords are elite warriors, but not supernatural in the way of other superelites of the world. Ws5 is not justified either. Not even knights have Ws5. That is reserved for our heroes, and rightly so.
Re-rollable panic might be something, but stubborn already gives them a status of elite bodyguard. And why should fullplate give more armour when on foot compared to mounted...? Arguably that might be a solution balancewise, but fluffwise never. I mean, it would be "NEEEAT!!", in the opinions of some, but that's not reasonable. I can't find a statisfactory answer to the question 'why'.
And don't get me started with the elf-human stuff. :-D I've had a long practice in that subject around here. Trust me.
Runedit\\ And sorry about my english! :-) I mean, we have too little practical english in the Uni, and way too little academic writing as well. Once I find a place to write stuff, I tend to get a bit carried away. One's gotta learn from somewhere, aye?
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A 3+ save would be better than Gromril armor. :icon_neutral:
Base S4 then gives them a S6 which is hero level. Same with the WS. I4 is fine, but then knights should have that as well.
If they die in droves then that's fine, in theory. They're supposed to stick around at all costs, which is part of the issue (I know 023 always has this problem). Something along the lines of whoever the general is and if said general leads the GS, it immediately makes the unit into a bodyguard unit.
What are the rules for the dwarf bodyguards?
I'd say make them immune to panic and fear, terror still comes into play, but is reduced to fear (so basically the unit gets a free Icon of Magnus and Banner of Valor, that may need some point adjusting).
I don't really have a problem with them as they are, but if there were to be any changes, then I'd be fine with that. Oh, and allowing them to have the capability to take a 50 point banner without the need of the Ancestral Heirloom rule.
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What are the rules for the dwarf bodyguards?
If a Lord is present with them they are immune to fear and terror.
3+ save from FPA? sure, if Gromril armour gets the same. 1+AS Ironbreakers, hell yeah!
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Full plate encloses you in steel, i dont see how a fifty fifty chance of saving it on a d6 justifies being almost impregnable except for a handgun bullet, which is what defeated it.
@wissenlander, explain white lions and their s6. That is an elite high elf unit with hero level stats(ws5 s4 i5 ASF)
So why cant our elite human troops have s4?
I4 is only good when not striking last.
@Rune.
I agree with not adding ws or attacks. I had a random fit and wasn't thinking clearly.
Who wants a twenty point greatsword? lol
Also I stick with s4, immune to panic when general is alive. access to magic banner.
Also, striking at a horse is alot easier then striking at a dude on foot with six feet of steel whirling around you who himself is encased in armour, concealing everything.
Thats why i said increase the save.
In the 15th-16th century, full plate armour was rediculously hard to breach with anything less then a handgun or lance. They were unkillable tanks who would be hacked at and hacked at with every weapon but it did nothing unles they slipped over.
Which is why I said 3+.
Think of it this way, t3 is still wounded by two's with s5 which then modifies the armour save from 3+ to a 5+. far harder to save.
But against a s3 blow, you should be saving the majority instead of failing half the time.
If full plate armour was able to be breached with a regular sword then it would not of worked.
Gromril armour has dwarf ws and toughness to go with it.
If greatswords had ws5 and t4 then i would be all four keeping it as a 4+ save. But since we have troops who can be ouutfought by dwarf warriors then i say we need a three plus save on our greatswordsmen.
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P.s. I'm not a tournament player and I actually lament the loss of balance with armies able to take deathstar these days.
Its one of the reasons i play empire for the tactical challenge of using all your troops together to bring about the opponents doom.
Fluff wise. . . it would fit. Knight on horse have the added maneuverability of horsemen and the larger target. Which is why i am for the improved save for foot greatswordsmen. at least I didn't say a six plus ward save lol
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The most I can agree with on this is raising the strength of Greatswords to 4. Too much more and we'd have to raise their point cost. S4/6 at 10 points per model is reasonably good and would allow them to hack through heavily armoured troops more easily than they do now.
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@wissenlander, explain white lions and their s6. That is an elite high elf unit with hero level stats(ws5 s4 i5 ASF)
So why cant our elite human troops have s4?
I4 is only good when not striking last.
They live for thousands of years, so if they go by the Arnie program of body building I'm sure they can achieve another strength level. It then puts our elites into character status, and I'm not a fan of that.
And in fluff terms our FPA is built by dwarfs, do you think they'd give us the good stuff and keep the inferior?
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Nothing a good tinkering wont fix. . . and if the dwarfs don't know. . .
But yeah I know what you mean.
But doesn't Ulthuan get periodically invaded and entire generations get lost to the dark elves?
Ah to have a s6 greatswordsman.
maybe we could have it as an "inner circle" upgrade?
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That would be kind of cool, and something I could live with. I think that starts to shift over into the foot knight category, which I'm kind of for (merging foot knights and greatswords into one unit selection).
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I'm all for a unit of "dismounted" knights. I mean not all knights fought from horse. Think, what is it roughly for a horse? 10 points?
A thirteen pt soldier which has ld 8 and a 2+ save
*begins drooling from mouth*
260pts maybe 290 with command and you get a unit of 2+ save soldiers that can be upgraded to s4 and become immune to psychology with a GM around.
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That does sound nice doesn't it, usually a warhorse horse alone is 9 points plus the bard would be 10 or 11.
the foot knight, as well as flagellant initiates, village greatweapons, forlorne hope prison conscripts, imperial Dwarf great swordsmen, and many other very fluffy greatsword builds is why I am in favour of the seperate psyche and equipment menus to build exactly what you want. And now with half points available to us....
we can really fine tune the costs of the different attributes.
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I know, I think having base units that you can add weapon options to.
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I don't see S4 as much of an issue for greatswords. They deserve it, I think - makes them actually cause some damage. I mean, S5 is nice but quite common. Make them strike at S6 and they might actually do something.... Provided they don't die, which they'll still do quite easily.
Also,w hy not give them a characterful rule to represent their veteran status? Make them reroll panic tests for instance. Heck, you could even let other state troops within say 6" do the same, to represent them being inspired by the example of the greatswords (they want to join them too, remember :wink: ).
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Units within 6" reroll failed panic tests as they are inspired by the greatswords display of bravery (blatantly ripped off the Longbeard rules).
Ahem.
I agree with cisse.
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I agree with cisse, units within six reroll panic from being inspired by greatswordsmen and have the GS immune to panic with s4
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Units within 6" reroll failed panic tests as they are inspired by the greatswords display of bravery (blatantly ripped off the Longbeard rules).
Ahem.
I agree with cisse.
Darn. True, Longbeards do have a special rule like that too, I totally forgot.
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Yeah but longbeards are like the equivalent of empire greatswords
but better
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Units within 6" reroll failed panic tests as they are inspired by the greatswords display of bravery (blatantly ripped off the Longbeard rules).
Ahem.
I agree with cisse.
Darn. True, Longbeards do have a special rule like that too, I totally forgot.
Still works though.
Maybe just make it 12" so it's different? :D
Or reroll Fear & Terror tests. Same general idea, different application.
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Looking at some beginning comments I agree with Grutch and others that tactically and historically it make sense to make them Skrmishers. Good ol' Grahm (may his sould rot in the 7th hell) screwed em by taking away their magic banner while core troops like Stormvermin point and laugh at them.
Skirmishing Stuborn! Look at the Middemheim Wolfkin. That list was official and I used it sometimes to effect with my stubborn skirmishers and WPs or Captain accompanying them.
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Yeah, trust the Gw's to nueter us
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I see no point in Greatswords anyway. Their entire existence as skirmishers or whatever was to break up pike blocks. How many of the Empire's main enemies use Pikes...?
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High elves.
And not just pikes but to carve through heavily armoured opponents. Like Kernigits and other full plate troopers.
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Yes, but the entire reason for the formation of zweihander-toting landsneckts was to counter the pike formations. I'd imagine that a six foot sword would be very unwieldy and hard to use, and its job could be much easier done by a halberd or poleaxe.
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Tradition.
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But the lack of opponents with pikes asks me to wonder where the tradition originates. Probably some GW designer that thought guys with massive swords was cool.
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Using the above build-a-greatsword menu it would be possible to create essentially fullplate greatsword stubborn trollslayers.
now how wopuld an empire army use those?
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But the lack of opponents with pikes asks me to wonder where the tradition originates. Probably some GW designer that Everyone thought guys with massive swords were cool.
Fixed that for you.
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Tradition that stemmed from Berserkers.
Read that godawful Sigmar book sometime.
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Well actually, six foots swords aren't that unwieldy, especially if you know how to use them.
I did marxbruder historical fechtschule for at least a year and that is what we learned to fight with, six foot greatswords. There was a specific way to fight with them but once you got it, it was really quite easy to use.
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Could you tell us more? It's a topic that interests me, although I don't know I'd ever be able to carry a great sword in New Zealand. We don't get much fun stuff here. No concealed firearms, no knives, no swords...
Sheesh, what a backward country I live in.
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Could you tell us more? It's a topic that interests me, although I don't know I'd ever be able to carry a great sword in New Zealand. We don't get much fun stuff here. No concealed firearms, no knives, no swords...
Sheesh, what a backward country I live in.
HI NEIGHBOUR!!!!!!!!
I live in Townsville, North Queensland.
And the site you can check out is
www.marxbruder.com.au
I know the hochmeister(grandmaster) himself, Matt Hoffman, who adapted the 16th century german fighting style.
And if you are a member of the Marxbruder(we get cards :happy:) then you can.
Nearly every move we are taught is able to link into another sword move, making it very adaptable when sword fighting.
But you can view that for yourself on youtube.
Back on topic, Greatswordsmen should be given the bodyguard rule and access to a magic banner.
Bodyguard, while the general of an empire army is alive and in the unit it is immune to panic.(notice I said the general of, meaning any general of the army not just the lord choice General of the Empire)
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Nearly every move we are taught is able to link into another sword move, making it very adaptable when sword fighting.
Fiori called that the tree of battle, another master called it the tree of life. Basically it's a decision tree based on how the human machine bends and can reasonably be expected to act or react. Marozzo's prezzas are another development of them (for simgle weapon or unarmed fighting) and bear an astonishing similarity to really dirty Jiu jutsu. After analysis of the oldest of the fight manuals I33 manuscript it too is brutally efficient in it's manner of putting ventilation in someone elses ribcage. Bast of luck finding a WMA fightschool in NZ!
I know you'll love it.
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Yeah, alot of people ask whether the sword fighting i did was japanese or chinese and i'm like no it was german. Lol
Then I'm treated to a boring session on how eastern martial arts are better, and I go whatever mate.
lol but back on topic. something to improve the greatswords. . .
p.s. @ der Hurenwibel: do you either study or do a large amount involving medieval history ?
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I remember when they did a test between the Spanish way of sword fighting and the Japanese and the Spanish actually won.
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Nice, 1 up for the europeans!!!
Japanese bushido is effective but for differant reasons.
I think the fact that the european's had to contend with full plate armoured soldiers and knightly charges would of given them a far diferant fighting style.
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Whenever sword fighting is compared like this, I think of Indiana Jones (the first one)....
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Haha! Classic scene.
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(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e62/t12161991/Funny%20pics/lobsterpwntwh4.gif)
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Well they also had to deal with unarmed and unarmoured fighting in dealing with surprize attacks from brigands and so forth. but anyways I digress. And yeah I can see in my mind's eye some highwayman holding up a nobleman schooled in the chivalrous arts, and shooting the guy rather than facing an educated swordsman.
It's interesting to me that the dynamic sphere of aikido and jiu jutsu is another way of describing Thibauth's magic circle of spanish swordsmanship. The one an approach from an angle of mysticism and the other an approach from geometry.
WMA when studied as a "whole cloth" martial art is especially adapted to dealing with the unexpected, and as such is especially good as a free combat system. Many eastern martial arts have sidled up to sport fighting and performance artistry, and thus what once was deadly has been blunted for popular consumption. Eastern martial arts when handled with seriousness and intent as western ones still are in their fledgling revival, are just as deadly, given equal knowledge of each other and equally skilled practitioners.
Currently WMA practitioners have eastern martial artists at a disadvantage because we know what kung fu, karate, and many other's look like and have movements to deal with them in our martial art. However to them we are the staw dummy that suddenly came to life and kicked their ass before they could react to the startling revelation that straw dummies can come to life. That will change I'm sure as the general martial arts community becomes exposed to WMA.
As a side note I am actually a long time practitioner of WMA with the Academy of European Swordsmanship, going on 9 years now. Also I have been involved in SCA fighting where I put my training to full speed practise for the past 22 years. Of which time I have been heavily involved in the Pas d' armes and historical fight manual's movement within the society which the revival of WMA actually arose from in the first place. And that part of the society has existed up here in Alberta for at least 17 years now, I can tell you it was pretty cool to be able to read some of the first english translations of the old fight manuals back then. Pretty crude and in some cases in code or bad translations but definately a worthwhile endeavor.
Most of the time in the early days of rebuilding this stuff we came accross movements that looked like jiujutsu or Kung fu and said to ourselves "that can't be right they must mean something else" which slowed us down quite a bit.
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Nearly every move we are taught is able to link into another sword move, making it very adaptable when sword fighting.
Fiori called that the tree of battle, another master called it the tree of life. Basically it's a decision tree based on how the human machine bends and can reasonably be expected to act or react. Marozzo's prezzas are another development of them (for simgle weapon or unarmed fighting) and bear an astonishing similarity to really dirty Jiu jutsu. After analysis of the oldest of the fight manuals I33 manuscript it too is brutally efficient in it's manner of putting ventilation in someone elses ribcage. Bast of luck finding a WMA fightschool in NZ!
I know you'll love it.
I'd hazard a guess that no one regarded it as dirty back then. On the battlefield there's only one rule, you live, the other guy dies.
I have to ask now, what's WMA? W... martial arts.
Derek, can you imagine that scene in Crocodile Dundee, where the mugger has his little switchblade.
Mick reaches over his shoulder and unsheathes his greatsword.
"That's not a knife, this is a knife."
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Everytime I hear the word knife that scene pops into my head. . .
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WMA = Western Martial Arts, any school of martial arts derived from essentially europe. also known as historical european martial arts (hema)
Distinct from the strictly reenactor crowd as these practitioners couln't give a rip for historical accuracy of the clothing or armour used so long as the martial art is correct in spirit and form for training.
Often the beginner classes will use boffer or larp weapons for sparring as well as absolute minimal protective gear like a boxing head gear or padded martial arts gear. Drills are most often done with a blunted steel weapon where possible or a hardwood waster when steel is not available.
And no, generally not at any time, in war are martial skills considered dirty fighting. Only in civilian life since the victorian era have we romanticized combat where the hero restrains himself from the base animalistic urges to kill, while the villian revels in the same. This also brings up the great dichotomy, what after all seperates the hero from the monster? Both are killers, both fight for what they love, both view themselves as doing what is right and good. That, BTW is a topic for the back table if you are so inclined.
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The greatsword fighting I did was with wooden waisters until you became proficient enough(in the eyes of the meisters) to use steel. And anyone under 14? I think was not allowed to use steel weapons. . .
Also the Marxbruders members usually consisted of all ex reenactors and the hochmeister was VERY strict on historical accuracy as the Marxbruder is a duetch krieg kunst and we would go to reeneactment shows.
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OK so I was only speaking from my own experience, when we do shows (in the AES) it's usually in sweatpants and t shirts with the shool logo on them unless it is something specific like an armoured duel, in which case then it is very accurate.
Derek, did you get much of a chance to do cutting with sharps? If so did you do any against cloth or otherwise protected or obstructed targets?
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No i dont think so.
We learned to slash and stitch though, and always at critical points in the armour.
No obstructed targets as far as I am aware of
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No i dont think so.
We learned to slash and stitch though, and always at critical points in the armour.
No obstructed targets as far as I am aware of
Several of our members have got sharp swords and regularly use them against tatami mat targets, hide on pork carcasses, milk jugs and so on. It is surprising how resilient cloth and cured leather are to an even slightly dull blade. Where unobstructed a blade with a longsword will pass completely through the skin, meat, and femur bone of a pig. A clothed pig will keep his femur together, albeit still chopped to the bone. A gambeson protects even more and a fulled cloth jack more still. Blows just back of the center of percussion which draw through the COP towards the tip, penetrate deepest regardless of the protection.
When using a carcass for cutting practise be sure to soak it completely submerged in water for at least a full 24 hours to rehydrate the meat and skin so that accurate weapon effects are recorded. Meat for consumption is invariably dried somewhat before it is sold.
The three wounders as they are called in western swordsmanship of the Leichtenauer school are Hauen (hewing or chopping) Schtucken (stabbing or thrusting) and schnitt (slicing, or draw cuts). Of the three only chops and stabs are worthwhile doing against metal armour, shnitt cuts work well against anything else really.
One of the really interesting things was doing sharp practise against a rawhide covered board shield reenforced with riveted steel straps 4 inches in from the edge as they were made sometimes in period. A sharpened blade would often penetrate between the grain of the boards and was easily trapped there by torsioning the shield hand against the resistance of the assailant leaving a defender's weapon free to threaten or attack. This was even easy to do after repeated attacks and the consecutive damage to the edge of a shield.
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Well if that is the case then cloth and leather, typically light armour should be a 5+ save, heavy armour should be 4+ and full plate armour should be 3 or even 2+ saves on foot lol
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I approve of that.
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I'm sorry, I was hurried and didn't finish my post, while the skin was not cut under the gambeson, jack or hardened leather the meat was seperated in a MAJOR (as in disarticulating) contusion. Gradually less severe as the armour got better. So yeah you wouln't be bleeding all over the battlefield but you would be bleeding internally. None of us wanted to try our swords out on the swatches of riveted chainmail that was present to lay over the gambeson or jack but as it is very flexible it didn't take much imagination to speculate that it wouldn't stop much if any of the impact of a hit.
We did have a sharpened dane axe, (8 inch wide blade with a 6 foot haft) however, and a 16 guage gothic breastplate which we laid over a fresh carcass and a gambeson. You know how in the movies when someone gets hit with a big weapon like that they split like a piece of firewood on a chopping block? Well that didn't happen, armour works. Even anvilling the carcass against a picnic table made a hell of a racket but no noticable damage to the carcass. Even after the formerly nicely shaped breast plate looked like a lumpy piece of garbage can it still resisted the most robust chops, even the few tip cuts did not penetrate far (5mm to 1cm) not cutting the gambeson nor crushing the piggy. Only when we began to experiment with the edges of the armour did we begin to see where it would all fall apart for the piggy. I did a shearing cut intended to land on the armoured shoulder strap on a downward angle and hopefully sink into the non rolled edge of the breastplate where the shoulder would be. (piggies don't really have shoulders to speak of) Anyways the edge of the breast plate turned the blade of the axe without dissipating the force, so it chopped through the gambeson and neck of the pig without slowing down appreciably. Sliding across the top of the rolled edge of the neck hole for the breast plate. As good an arguement for a gorget as I've ever seen.
The axe BTW took only three noticable notches that day all from the edge of the breast plate where it would be presented with an intersecting profile of steel that would in essence cut back. These were easily filed out and the blade resharpened.
Generally though cuts to near the edge of the BP like near the arm hole or at the bottom edge or neck would deform the armour more or in some cases actually cut it appreciably. ((2 inch to 4 inch cut in the steel) it was getting hard to tell in most cases the cuts were stopped by a wrinkle or crease from a previous chop) Whether this would cause a mortal injury would of course depend on just what is near where the dane axe comes off the armour. If it's more plate armour on a different limb probably not anything will happen, if it's nothing or a softer type of armour likely a mortal injury will occur. That's just what a dane axe does, cause mortal injuries.
On a different weekend we tested just how much of a cut we could get out of the axe. So we hung a piggy by it's ankles with it's legs spread,and performed a straight downward blow with the axe. This split the piggy all the way through to come out the meat of the neck. Cleaving the pelvis, all of the short ribs, long ribs before the force and shaking of the pig caused it to come out the neck instead of travelling through into the base of the skull. Maybe if we had tied the head in place... but the carcass was also wiggling and swinging forwards and back as well as sideways. Suffice to say though the point had been made, a dane axe hit without plate armour is really hurty. Another weapon I could see being in the same class as this would be the grossemesser, a thoroughly unrepresented weapon of the landesknecht era. It should be what our greatswords carry.
Thinking about it yeah I can agree with a 5+ for light armour HA4+, partial plate3+ full plate 2+ no extra save for hand weapon and shield with either plate format. I'd go back to the minus for movement too though if we got the extra bump.
The main reason I can agree with increasing the effectiveness of armour is that unlike my hanging meat targets fighters are moving to avoid a shot. As such they will be likely to feel or see that a blow is about to happen and move so that it becomes a glance rather than a well struck blow. Although this could also be represented already in the WS part of the profile, or for that matter in the case of wardancers in their groovy ward save.
Nuff 4 now
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My humble suggestion.
Make them core, but one unit only.
Once they have to stop competing with cannons and other special choices like pistoliers and inner circle knights, you will see lots of people getting them. You don't have to change any of their stats which are already quite reasonable considering we Empire are only human and not super beings or races.
Alternatively, give the General a special rule that if he is chosen as the general of the army, then one unit of great swords can automatically be taken as a core choice to represent his body guard. Hmmm, I actually like this idea even more. :icon_biggrin:
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Yeah but Elves all look like girls and can't grow beards. Ha.
Not quite true. There is at least one elf with chin hair. Malus darkblades father had knotted beard. :happy:
My idea for our Greatswords would be this:
Special: Greatswords
M Ws Bs S T W I A Ld
4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8
If you have an elector count in your army one Greatsword unit becomes core. This unit cannot be upgraded to emperor's swords
Equipment: Fullplate Armour, Handweapon, Greatweapon.
Options:
-Command
-50pt Magic Standard
-Can replace their Great weapons for shields (Free)
-One unit in the army can be upgraded to the Emperor's Chosen Swords (They get +1 str and Ws) +2pts
Special Rules:
-Stubborn
-Immune to Fear and Panic.
Points: as current
cheers.
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Yes I agree with what you have written Sir Paradus Hithili but not the shields part.
they should never get shield. If you want a unit with Full plate and shield on foot it needs to be another unit altogether and they should not be stubborn
Also Im not too fussed with the Emperor's Chosen idea still Im not against it.
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they should never get shield. If you want a unit with Full plate and shield on foot it needs to be another unit altogether and they should not be stubborn
The only real reason i added a shield option is so we have the option of fielding the Reiksguard. Though swordsmen are alright for the job, they just don't have the eliteness that the guard should have.
cheers.
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they should never get shield. If you want a unit with Full plate and shield on foot it needs to be another unit altogether and they should not be stubborn
The only real reason i added a shield option is so we have the option of fielding the Reiksguard. Though swordsmen are alright for the job, they just don't have the eliteness that the guard should have.
cheers.
Yes but I think it might be better just to have the option of Reiksguard as a different unit. Maybe a rare option. Mainly because they would work very different fluff wise, such as no detachments and not stubborn. Still some other bonus to leadership or combat so they dont run too often.
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Not to mention (as we've discussed before) greatswords with shields would be taken every time as a special. If full plate infantry with shields were added, they should be a rare choice so greatswords won't disappear from our list. The debate about taking full-plate swordsmen/reiksguard infantry/foot knights has been thoroughly argued if you ask me, though.
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I was thinking about this very topic and i believe i came to a balanced and fluffy fit.
Greatswords WS 4 S 4 T 4 A 1 I 4 LD8 ( much the same just add in the extra I)
Banner 50pts
Honor Guard- When a General of the Empire joins the unit the unit becomes immune to fear and panic and Terror become fear. ( this allows are greatswords to be flexible and op to flee while still being scared of a dragon ect)
Momentous Charge ( all i could think of) - The greatswords are masters of using the great weapons to show this on the charge the unit get a Plus 1 S for the first round of combat. This shows the unit putting all their strength behind the blow and the momentum of the charge.
I feel that the banner and honor gaurd our needed to give the unit more flexiblity. While i feel S4 is high all around but giving a situautionally i feel its appropriate for the greatswords. It also rewards the player for playing tactically and getting the charge. :ph34r:
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I suppose the biggest problem with Greatswords is that they're our "elite" infantry but really only about as good as dwarf warriors and dwarf warriors can be upgraded to Longbeards who are much better. I would say that to be competitive in the modern gaming environment they need two attacks, but I hate that idea.
Improved WS or improved S is pretty pointless when they're hitting on 3s or 4s against most enemies and wounding on 2s or 3s. It's multiple attacks that they need to keep up with the new army lists and give them a chance against things like Undead and other hordes.
Being able to take a magic standard up to 50 points would give them all they need after that.
So Greatswords: 12 points per model.
M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld8 Sv4+
Equipment: great weapon, full plate armour.
May take a magic banner up to 50 points.
I think that would do it.
I think that Dwarf elites should be tweaked in that direction too. Longbeard upgrades give +1 attack (not +1 WS and S) Ironbreakers should have the same stats with their improved armour save. Hammerers should have two attacks at WS5 and S4.
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Hammerers with two attacks and s6?
*starts drooling*
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I suppose the biggest problem with Greatswords is that they're our "elite" infantry but really only about as good as dwarf warriors and dwarf warriors can be upgraded to Longbeards who are much better.
I don't think that is a problem. Human elite being equal to normal dwarf is okay for me. I think Greatswords are fine as they are. Give them back a 50 point banner and if you really must make them immune to fear and leave them alone. It is a sad day when the answer to power creep is more power creep. No normal human infantry or cavalry should have two attacks. I know grail knights have more than one attack but they are not normal humans now are they. As soon as we start increasing attacks like that you take away the other elements of the game. Or if you want give Greatswords two attacks but also say that each rank grants +2 CR instead of +1, outnumbering now grants +3 CR, a flank attack grants +2 CR and a rear attack +4 CR just to balance the game. Hey that might not be such a bad idea.
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It won't matter how many attacks we give our greatswordsmen if the enemy still kill enough of them to cancel our rank bonuses and wipe out the whole front rank. . . stubborn works with a 'living' unit, not a recently butchered one.
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It won't matter how many attacks we give our greatswordsmen if the enemy still kill enough of them to cancel our rank bonuses and wipe out the whole front rank. . . stubborn works with a 'living' unit, not a recently butchered one.
You only need to have one greatsword standing after the slaughter in order to hold. That's the whole point.
I mostly agree with Commandant, although I can see where the appeal of 2 attacks comes from. There are just so many elites with 2 attacks nowadays that kills seem important. The truth is, though, that greatswords are not designed to be killy. That is why they have full plate and stubborn instead of extra attacks and WS, or other such attack power increases. Our killy units are our shooting, our knights, and occasionally our characters.
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Is unbreakable when a GoTE is in the unit too OP?
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Not for our 1 attack T3 lightly armoured dudes. . . for chaos warriors, yes.
I say that is pretty good, unless we want to flee from a charge.
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I mostly agree with Commandant, although I can see where the appeal of 2 attacks comes from. There are just so many elites with 2 attacks nowadays that kills seem important. The truth is, though, that greatswords are not designed to be killy. That is why they have full plate and stubborn instead of extra attacks and WS, or other such attack power increases. Our killy units are our shooting, our knights, and occasionally our characters.
Then Greatswords are doing very little that can't be done by a unit of swordsmen for less points and they shouldn't be cutting into the number of inner circle knights we can take by being a special choice.
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Greatswords are doing very little that can't be done by a unit of swordsmen for less points and they shouldn't be cutting into the number of inner circle knights we can take by being a special choice.
That is true, except that they are stubborn Ld. 8. This means they are able to take much heavier charges, and don't have to be in range of the general all the time. It's not a big difference, but, when combined with their greatweapons, I say it's about a 4 point one. :wink:
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So how about making them a core choice?
If we can't get two attacks for them, how about making them strength 4 base (precedent IC knights) I4 (precedent Swordsmen) and have their greatswords count as halberds?
They'd be the same total strength (5) but they wouldn't automatically strike last and there's a possibility (however slight) that they might actually kill something before dying.
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So how about making them a core choice?
If we can't get two attacks for them, how about making them strength 4 base (precedent IC knights) I4 (precedent Swordsmen) and have their greatswords count as halberds?
They'd be the same total strength (5) but they wouldn't automatically strike last and there's a possibility (however slight) that they might actually kill something before dying.
:laugh:
I can see that you are not easily dissuaded. I still feel that greatswords with killy faces, or any infantry besides possibly flagellants with killy faces, is not really in the Empire fluff.
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So as opposed to the Silver Horde, who were the best at not dying, our Greatswords are simply best at not running away?
Maybe we should just change their names, instead of Greatswords we can call them "Really Stupidly Brave Swords" instead.
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Is unbreakable when a GoTE is in the unit too OP?
They can already be unbreakable with a warrior priest.
I use Great swords (22+ Warrior priest on barded warhorse with icon of magnus, GW, HA, and Ench Shield) with either 2 9 man swordmen detach or 1 9 man sword detach and 5 archer detach.
They consistently walk over everything they touch-except korn knights and other super heavy Calvary. In fact at the last tournament I took them to EVERYTHING that could flee as a charge reaction did (incl chaos warriors...boo hiss!) and those that couldnt (VC stuff) got cut down in a turn or two. The hatred + prayers and the immune to fear thing made them very, very scary.
The secret is to get the charge , or set up the detachments to guarantee the rank breaking counter charge.
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Greatswords need to be core and 8 pts. Maybe give them shields and take out the handweapon (IE they have a 3+ AS against shooting but cant use it in melee).
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I agree with the 8 point part. Either have really killy stuff like all the newer army books. Or make them cheaper. Maybe have one unit upgradable so you can have greatswords with 2 attacks for 10 points. I mean as of right now.. black guard.. have higher ws, strike before, and 1 more attack for only 3 points more? A price drop to 8 would be in order. 2 attacks really isn't that bad considering they are the most elite infantry we have... and if we only have 1 unit of them.. not that bad really. That would be like, say the best 100 men in the empire fighting. Options for shields for 1/model. No strength upgrade.
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:laugh:
I can see that you are not easily dissuaded. I still feel that greatswords with killy faces, or any infantry besides possibly flagellants with killy faces, is not really in the Empire fluff.
The interesting thing is that my greatswords normally out kill my knights by a long way. Funny isn't it?
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Only because they hold and can strike at s5.
But think of it this way, greatswordsmen are the best fighters we have. . .against ourselves.
And possibly orcs.
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Only because they hold and can strike at s5.
But think of it this way, greatswordsmen are the best fighters we have. . .against ourselves.
And possibly orcs.
Greatswordsmen are the best fighters that we have against anything, they just need a slightly more skillful general to ensure the charge
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Yeah, getting the charge is important. But even then, our six to 8 attacks(depending on warrior priest) isn't gonna kill more then a chaos warrior or two.
while they butcher our rank back, I suppose I should just start making strategies for a charge, fight till my next turn, then hit them with flankers.
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Greatswordsmen are the best fighters that we have against anything, they just need a slightly more skillful general to ensure the charge
Agreed. Backed by 2 detachments, I have had chaos warriors opt to flee instead of facing a charge of 7 wide greatswords + WP with 2 9 man swords detachments.
I think 10 points plus the option to take a magic banner of 50 points (assume griffon banner goes down to 50 points) and 1 unit as core if take GoTE.
Still slightly over priced, but getting a really good banner choice + ability to take as core makes up for it.
+ we have to factor in the fact that they can become unbreakable and have hatred (re; WP)
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yes hatred only if you take a priest, and what if you don't want to field the same army all of the time?
And our powerlevel of four unbreakable, very tough to crack considering all the 7+ dispel dice armies out there .