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Author Topic: 40K  (Read 305482 times)

Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1925 on: September 19, 2011, 09:22:50 PM »
Plus it looks adorable!

I want a Wraith Seer, a Wasp, a Hornet, multiples of previous, etc.  :evil:
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline Aldaris

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1926 on: September 19, 2011, 09:35:01 PM »
Yes, I know what you mean. *sigh*

That's the trouble with Forgeworld. If they have a lot of stuff for a range you love, it's going to end very poorly for your wallet if you give in to your buying impulses...

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1927 on: September 20, 2011, 07:12:33 AM »
They did, because someone here told me to.

I could go back through the pages, but I'll just blame Crimson.

I am fairly certain I said not to take 3 of the same option!  :-D  Wraithlords are good, but they have their limitations.  Being a monstrous creature is all fine and dandy until you come against poison!

If I had the money, id buy loads more forge world stuff than I do.  As it is, I have bits and bobs for my guard and chaos armies.
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1928 on: September 20, 2011, 09:46:07 AM »
Well, I just entered the list my opponent used in my game last thursday into Onlinecodex.

215 points over, and where I didn't know exact equipment I assumed the minimum possible.

God, I hate it when they do this.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1929 on: September 20, 2011, 10:01:51 AM »
After the game...pants down. If someone has nothing to hide he has no problems with this.

Same goes with champions in Warhammer. There are no champions in the unit if the war altar hits it but if there is a challenge by a super angry black ork warlord suddenly Hauptmann Hans is jumping to the front. In the army introduction I ask about everything musicians, banner, non magical equipment (if the guy afforded a greatweapon he will have no magical one).

Offline Aldaris

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1930 on: September 20, 2011, 10:10:23 AM »
That wasn't the problem, I remember exactly what he had - and that comes to 2215, not 2000. At least. Assuming he had a regular Librarian and not an Epistolary, no extra armor... you know what I mean.

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1931 on: September 20, 2011, 10:18:23 AM »
I would suggest you don't play them again, or if you do, insist on seeing their list, as it could be a genuine mistake.  That said if it was on purpose, it is poor form.
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Offline Sig

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1932 on: September 20, 2011, 10:23:34 AM »
I have a simple spreadsheet I do my lists on, and one time I screwed up and didn't put in the cost for one entry - a genuine mistake, but had me 125 points over. It does happen. Just check the list.

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1933 on: September 20, 2011, 10:33:13 AM »
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1934 on: September 20, 2011, 10:46:35 AM »
Some people are genuinely good at eeking out the points in their books though.

We have two marine players in our group.  One always seems to field miles more things than the other, even when they play against each other.  We asked him about it, and he showed us his list and let us price up his list and it was actually within points. 

When we deploy things we tend to explain if a unit has a champion, what special gear a unit has if it is not immediately apparent due to conversions etc.   EG I go, "here is my unit of 10 chaos marines, they have a champion, and everyone is equiped with what is on the model, except the champion doesn't really have a plasma pistol because it is a heap of ****  :-D"
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1935 on: September 20, 2011, 10:48:37 AM »
I'm not sure I understand the wound allocation rules.

Admittedly, I haven't played a proper game yet. This weekend!
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1936 on: September 20, 2011, 11:08:08 AM »
Wound allocation doesn't work as it is supposed to in some scenarios.  I will try to explain it to you Rufus   :-)

Scenario 1.  Ten Marines with bolters vs ten Marines with bolters.
10 shots, hit 7, wound 4, four models make saves, the player who has been shot removes any three models.  That is nice and simple.

Scenario 2.  Ten Marines with bolters vs three marines, two with bolters, one with a special weapon
10 shots, hit 7, wound 4.  Wound allocation funtime.   You allocate wounds per group of identical armed models.  Eg in this scenario you can stack 3 on the bolter guys and 1 on the special weapon, or two on the bolters and one on the special weapon.  Spare wounds do not transfer from group to group.  So if the bolter guys fail 3 wounds, the spare wound is lost.

Scenario 3.  Ten marines, plasma cannon, plasmagun and bolters vs five marines, 1 with plasma gun, and 1 sergent.
This is a more likely scenario and can get complicated fast.
Fire plasmacannon first [as it has more targets to hit at this stage] and hits 5, wounding 5.  Plasmagun wounds 1, the other marines bolters inflict say 4 wounds.

So you now have 6 plasma ap2 wounds, and 4 boltgun wounds at ap5 to divide between the 5 models.  However, there are three model groups which makes this complicated. 
You could for example. stick all 6 plasma wounds on the three bolter models, and put two boltgun wounds on each of the special weapon and sergent, meaning the two more valuble squad members could survive!  Notice if you didnt fire the bolters, you would have killed the whole squad   :eusa_wall:  Also if the five man unit didn't have different types of models, they would also all have been wiped out, regardless of the bolters firing or not.

That make sense?
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1937 on: September 20, 2011, 11:38:40 AM »
That make sense?

No!

I don't understand how firing more weapons can mean fewer casualties. Well, I can understand how it happens, just not why the rules allow it.

Surely you should have to put one plasma wound on each model before doubling up? Otherwise, isn't it total nonsense?


Thanks for the explanation though!
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1938 on: September 20, 2011, 11:44:34 AM »
I donīt try to figure it out and just do it like I always did it...if I take 5 casualties without any safes I remove those first and then roll armour and check if some of the others survive...also I pick the models that die.

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1939 on: September 20, 2011, 11:46:18 AM »
Rufus I agree with you, but that is unfortunately not how the rules work.  6th edition rumours have it that this will be changed, again.  In hand to hand combat, this same rule screws over power weapons for the same reason, but NOT powerfists in most cases.  This is because you strike at a different time and thus the only wounds you are dishing out are s8 powerfist attacks.   This is one reason I always include a Fisto marine  :-D

The best way to avoid this problem is to pick weapons that have complimentary ap values.  Eg all low or higher than the armour you expect to go against.

It is worth noting that some units can be built to specifically take advantage of this rule.  See nobs bikers, space wolf rider things which can both take every model with different gear and they have multiple wounds meaning that the unit can take a huge amount of wounds before losing any models, greatly increasing its survivability and death dealing potential.

My Leman Russ tanks never ever fire their heavy bolter if the enemy is out of cover.  There is no point as it makes the enemy have a chance of saving.  It is ridiculous but true that firing more shots means people have more chance of survival.  If you really must fire the prow gun, upgrade to a lascannon.




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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1940 on: September 20, 2011, 11:58:31 AM »
It is ridiculous but true that firing more shots means people have more chance of survival. 

I think it's a massive flaw in the rules. It's overly-complicated, and it has ridiculous results. I really doubt they intended it to be this way.

Bring on 6th edition!


Quote
It is worth noting that some units can be built to specifically take advantage of this rule.  See nobs bikers, space wolf rider things which can both take every model with different gear and they have multiple wounds meaning that the unit can take a huge amount of wounds before losing any models, greatly increasing its survivability and death dealing potential.

Also grey knight paladins.

Which I am definitely not using.
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1941 on: September 20, 2011, 12:13:02 PM »
As long as you dont play against people who specifically create these rule exploit units, the rule functions fairly reasonably.  I can see why they have done this, but the fact the rulebook itself expressly shows how to use the wound allocation to keep men alive suggests to me GW knew exactly what they were doing when they put this rule in.

I beleive the proposed rule is for every 5th wound you inflict on an enemy unit, you can chose who takes that hit.  Unsure if this will allow you to put an unsavable hit onto a particular man though.  It may well be I misread what was put and that every 5th casualty you get to pick. 

Generally speaking it is not an issue though Rufus.  It may be more so with grey knights due to small unit sizes, as this rule only has any effect if the target unit takes more wounds than it has bodies.

Palidins even have an item specifically designed to exploit this rule.  That 2++ ward save stick.

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Offline Aldaris

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1942 on: September 20, 2011, 12:18:16 PM »
Also grey knight paladins.

Which I am definitely not using.

They're simply too bloody expensive. Take 10 Paladins, add an Apothecary and a Brotherhood Banner, Psi ammo, arm the bunch and then look at the price tag. There won't be a lot "rest of the army" left.

Also, they're slooooow (unlike Thunderwolf cav or Nob bikers) and they die easily to highpowered shooting as they only have a 5++ against ranged attacks. Meaning a single Demolisher shell (S10 AP2) could mean it's literally all over for you.

So yes, Paladins can play the wounds shenanigans game. No, they're not very good at it.
So you might as well take them with a clean conscience.
 :-D

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1943 on: September 20, 2011, 12:28:48 PM »
Aahhhhhhhhhhh!

The site ate my well-reasoned reply.


Forget it then.
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1944 on: September 20, 2011, 01:34:22 PM »
rufus being well reasoned?

I fnar in disbelieving exuberance.
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1945 on: September 20, 2011, 01:36:08 PM »
You'll never see it now, because the forum consumed my post. And I don't intend to say anything well-reasoned in the future.

Back to angry nonsense!


Does anyone have a good house-rule-type fix for the wound allocation rules?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 01:51:04 PM by rufus sparkfire »
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1946 on: September 20, 2011, 01:56:00 PM »
You distribute the hits for every different AP seperate starting with the killiest AP weapon.

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1947 on: September 20, 2011, 02:07:00 PM »
You distribute the hits for every different AP seperate starting with the killiest AP weapon.

That would work, although you would still get wasted wounds from the other guns after the Low AP guns killed most of the unit.  Unless you are proposing you remove the dead ones from the low AP hits first, before then distributing the remaining save-able hits?  That would be best IMO.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1948 on: September 20, 2011, 02:26:34 PM »
I have a hard time believing that all the kids who play 40K do wound allocation correctly by the rules in the book!



Unless you are proposing you remove the dead ones from the low AP hits first, before then distributing the remaining save-able hits?  That would be best IMO.

Hmmm, maybe.

Resolve each weapon type separately? Does that create any other problems?
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 40K
« Reply #1949 on: September 20, 2011, 02:46:54 PM »
Yes more people die.