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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => Empire 8th Army Book => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Core => Topic started by: MagicJuggler on May 13, 2009, 12:00:15 AM
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Hello. As part of my beliefs, in order for Empire to better conform to the way new armybooks are being structured, I would like to see the Imperial fast cavalry option as a core choice and their Knights as a special choice. But what is there to do about these units? I propose the following statline; this is a catchall supposed to represent everything from members of the Pistolkorps, to freelancer mercenaries and bandits.
Reiter: WS 3, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, Ld 7, Sv 5+, A 1.
Outrider: WS 3, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, Ld 8, Sv 5+, A 1
Freelancer: WS 4, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, Ld 8, Sv 5+, A 2
Equipment: Horse, Light Armor
Points cost: 13-model. The unit must contain a minimum of 5 models.
Options: One model may be upgraded to a Musician for 7 points. The unit may replace a Reiter with either an Outrider or Freelancer (but not both) for +7 points. The unit may take either crossbows at 3 pts a model, pistols at 3 points a model, or a brace at 5 points a model; if the unit has an Outrider, it MUST take a brace of pistols and cannot take any more weapon upgrades. A unit that does not take a brace of pistols, or crossbows, may take shields at 1 pt a model. The unit may take heavy armor at 2 points a model at which point it ceases to be fast cavalry. The unit may take spears at 1 pt a model lances at 2 pts a model.
An Outrider may replace one or both of its pistols with Repeater Pistols at +5 points each.
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I like horse for 8 points
rider for 3 points with a basic profile and a hand weapon with a build as you like series of extra options for building anything from griffon riders to balkan stradiots.
12 points basic with no fast cav special training
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I like it mostly; criticism would be that maybe Crossbows should be only 2 pts/model, since they're so incompatible with Fast Cavalry in principle. The other thing is that with a shield, the unit becomes fast cavalry with a 4+ save. Perhaps shields should also render the unit not Fast Cavalry (but they could be free instead!).
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Even elves don't have fast cav with shields. Following general principles, that must be implemented...
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Chaos Dwarfs have Hobgoblins who can have Wolves and Shields and still count as fast cav...I know that's a bad analogy but meh. Maybe make it so if shields or heavy armor is chosen?
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Even elves don't have fast cav with shields. Following general principles, that must be implemented...
I thought Dark Riders could still take shields and retain the fast cavalry rule.
And Dogs of War Light cavalry can take shields and be fast cavalry.
I am opposed however to the idea of moving knights to special. Knightly Orders are integral to the Empire.
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Rationalize it like this: Even knightly orders need their mounted sergeants, and squires in order to assist them. Pure-knight armies are just plain silly. Additionally, the armybook as current states that many Knights will pay Outriders to serve as drill instructors for young nobles, who by learning to fight as pistoliers, will become accustomed to battle that they may be deemed worthy of joining the Order.
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Warlord- nope. I concede on the DoW, but they aren't exactly a recent army.
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Knights could be special, if we get core demilancers to replace them. Essentially the same but with Heavy/light armour instead of full plate.
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Core nilla knights that are even cheaper...I am all for it.
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I think Knights could stay core, but be capped at how many units in 2k can be taken.
All knight units are indeed silly, but then again I am currently wondering why anyone would even take foot troops...
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Knights could be special, if we get core demilancers to replace them. Essentially the same but with Heavy/light armour instead of full plate.
Again, that was the intent of this suggestion, and why heavy armor is an upgrade option for Reiters...
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Sorry to double post but there's something else I'm interested in seeing:
Cavalry carbines. Basically a "halfway" step between pistols and handguns. Make them range 16, move and fire, S4 AP, but they don't get the bonuses of a pistol. Plus they could represent particuarly skilled cavalry archers...does this sound plausible?
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I've one problem.
Carbines are breech loaders.
Handguns, pistols, repeaters... all are muzzle loaders. Breechloading technology was a rather late invention by gunpowder standards. 1862 I think. During the Civil War at any rate.
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I've one problem.
Carbines are breech loaders.
Handguns, pistols, repeaters... all are muzzle loaders. Breechloading technology was a rather late invention by gunpowder standards. 1862 I think. During the Civil War at any rate.
Fraid not ,breech-loading weapons were developed as far back as the late 14th century .First 'full ' use of breech loaders was the ferguson rifle in 1772
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Late 14th century?!
No... no they weren't. Carbines were defintely during the Civil War, though I'm not quite sure when effective breechloading technology was developed, it was definitely not in the 14th century.
EDIT: After checking, it was indeed the ferguson rifle. All the same, my point stands.
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How about calling it a cavalry gun or a dragonne instead?
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It's the function I'm concerned with, not the name :closed-eyes:
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It's the function I'm concerned with, not the name :closed-eyes:
You'd rather they didn't use it to shoot opponents ?
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They could shoot each other...
Rather the fact that at the core they are *still* carbines. Doesn't fit with the period Empire is based off of (yes I realize it is fantasy and all, but all the same...).
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They could shoot each other...
Rather the fact that at the core they are *still* carbines. Doesn't fit with the period Empire is based off of (yes I realize it is fantasy and all, but all the same...).
And assault rifles repeating handguns do?
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No.
Hence the fantasy remark.
More, I think that no gunpowder weapon (excluding pistols) should be move-and-fire.
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Thats fair enough I think
If it were my ideal world, outriders would lose repeating handguns and only get handguns at best (possibly carbines for a 16" range)
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They have to have some downside.
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They have to have some downside.
Totally agree, but not being able to move and fire doesnt quite detract from the assualt rifle armed outriders...
Like I said, my ideal world is ditch repeater handguns, give them handguns or carbines that have move or fire
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So steam tanks and gyrocopters are ok but repeater rifles and single-shot carbines aren't?
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No, but those have been around for ages (as have the other things), and are rather iconic of their respective armies.
So, not going away anytime soon (however much I'd like them to).
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Actually I hate steamtanks too ;)
But yeah, they have both been around since 3rd ed and so I will have to live with them
Repeater handguns, per se, I have no issue with - when given to champions and heroes.
An entire unit with them is madness. And if they can give them to outriders, why not give them to normal handgunners first?
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Actually I hate steamtanks too ;)
But yeah, they have both been around since 3rd ed and so I will have to live with them
Repeater handguns, per se, I have no issue with - when given to champions and heroes.
An entire unit with them is madness. And if they can give them to outriders, why not give them to normal handgunners first?
Because normal hand gunners are rabble when compared the more elite Outriders. I for one do not think that Outriders come close to being unbalanced. Had the old 6th edition rule with move AND fire for repeaters still been in effect it would have been a completely different matter.
As for steam tanks and carbines. I wouldn't mind a specialist unit/skirmisher to be able to use some primitive form of breech loader. shorter range but the same punch as a handgun, or as a bow with AP. Actually I've been thinking about this as a possible conversion for archers.
And let's not forget, this is a fantasy game, not a historical analouge. However, the robohorse must go!
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Yeah, I know its a fantasy game, so a lot of stuff I can happily accept, I just really think the outriders are massivly over the top, for a lot of reasons they just offend me like few other aspects of the game do.
I think the key is they gave a hero upgrade to a whole unit, wrong, wrong, wrong
Or - gave that same upgrade to a handgunner unit and make up whatever fluff you want - why not have an entire unit of HLRs on foot instead?
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Yeah, I know its a fantasy game, so a lot of stuff I can happily accept, I just really think the outriders are massivly over the top, for a lot of reasons they just offend me like few other aspects of the game do.
I think the key is they gave a hero upgrade to a whole unit, wrong, wrong, wrong
Or - gave that same upgrade to a handgunner unit and make up whatever fluff you want - why not have an entire unit of HLRs on foot instead?
Come on now, what is so 'over the top' with the Outriders? Yes, they use somewhat outlandish weapons when compared to normal troopers. But remember the repeater is a champion upgrade, and Outriders represent just that, more skilled and experienced gunners who have acheived a level high enough to allow the access to more advanced weaponry. And there are historic precedents to repeater rifles.
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There are historic precedents with repeater rifles, they were made in increadibly small numbers and increadibly rare
I had no problem when only unit champions and heros could get them, the moment they gave them to units, they just made it wrong
And as I said, why not give them to an elite, hand picked unit of handgunners? you know, chosen men type thing (or give them HLRs ;) )
Over the top? potentially 30 handgun shots in a 360 degree fire arc? all at short range in turn 2?
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Over the top? potentially 30 handgun shots in a 360 degree fire arc? all at short range in turn 2?
This probably wasn't your intention, but ... they do what?
I want some! Woo hoo!
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Don't forget the BS4!
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How about Air guns? (not strictly within the time period but its fairly close) Move and fire non-armour piercing hand guns.
Historically they could fire 20 rounds a minute with the rounds able to go through a wooden board at 100 paces.
*Plink* *Plink*
Would love to see them on skirmishers, I've got plans to convert some archers to use some air guns with bow stats.
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And just to be fair, give them the "reliable" stat akin to Skaven. Any double-1 rolls to hit result in an automatic wound inflicted, representing an oxygen canister bursting/exploding. Move and fire could be nice, that or giving it improved range or the option to shoot from in cover while the user was on foot, etc.
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And just to be fair, give them the "reliable" stat akin to Skaven. Any double-1 rolls to hit result in an automatic wound inflicted, representing an oxygen canister bursting/exploding. Move and fire could be nice, that or giving it improved range or the option to shoot from in cover while the user was on foot, etc.
Sounds good to me
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Late 14th century?!
No... no they weren't. Carbines were defintely during the Civil War, though I'm not quite sure when effective breechloading technology was developed, it was definitely not in the 14th century.
EDIT: After checking, it was indeed the ferguson rifle. All the same, my point stands.
All a carbine is is a gun that is longer than a pistol and shorter than a musket/rifle. Whether its breech loading or not is irrelevant.
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Breechloading made carbines actually practical though.
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But Carbines aren't necessarily all Breech loaded or muzzle loaded. I think he was referring to them in general.
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True.
But in the early period of firearm use, rate of fire was all. Breechloading allowed carbines to match the rate of fire of infantry rifles (yes, I know, they didn't technically use rifles).
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True.
But in the early period of firearm use, rate of fire was all. Breechloading allowed carbines to match the rate of fire of infantry rifles (yes, I know, they didn't technically use rifles).
Rate of fire was important but carbine armed cavalry have been around since at least the mid 1500's.
The question for us is how a carbine would be represented in Warhammer. Longer ranged than a pistol but shorter than a handgun? What's the point? Why bother with carbines when you've got cavalry with repeater handguns?
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to say outriders are overbalanced when they struggle to find a place in peoples armies is kinda hilarious.
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True.
But in the early period of firearm use, rate of fire was all. Breechloading allowed carbines to match the rate of fire of infantry rifles (yes, I know, they didn't technically use rifles).
Rate of fire was important but carbine armed cavalry have been around since at least the mid 1500's.
The question for us is how a carbine would be represented in Warhammer. Longer ranged than a pistol but shorter than a handgun? What's the point? Why bother with carbines when you've got cavalry with repeater handguns?
The idea would be a Carbine has more range than the pistol, less than the handgun. It can move and shoot, but takes penalties for moving and range (as opposed to a pistol which does not).
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If it has a 16" range, I'm fine with it.
But lets just remember KISS...
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to say outriders are overbalanced when they struggle to find a place in peoples armies is kinda hilarious.
They do?
Not on this forum, almost every suggested army list I see on here is "Stanks, AL on Popemobile, 2 WP, outriders."
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Hardly, I find outriders too much of a liability and would take pistoliers over then anyday. If I want a 360 gunnery platform I take a hellblaster that won't cost me a special choice.
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Except for the good 42% chance of a miscast each turn...seeing a hellblaster die on turn 1 does tend to make you hate said choice...then again, I like to use outriders for threatening opponent's flanks/setting up crossfires; were I to have outriders capable of using the carbine I suggested though, I would be in gaming heaven as I could use them alternately as pistoliers or outriders, but being inferior to both.
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move or shoot except in the first turn that they do shoot. Since it is hardly unreasonable to think that they didn't load thier weapons before the battle.
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This is a suggested modification as a result of prior discussions.
Reiter: WS 3, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, Ld 7, Sv 5+, A 1.
Outrider: WS 3, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, Ld 8, Sv 5+, A 1
Freelancer: WS 4, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, Ld 8, Sv 5+, A 2
Equipment: Horse, Light Armor
Points cost: 13-model. The unit must contain a minimum of 5 models.
Options: One model may be upgraded to a Musician for 7 points. The unit may replace a Reiter with either an Outrider or Freelancer (but not both) for +7 points. The unit may take either crossbows at 2 pts a model, handguns or pistols at 3 points a model, musketoons at 4 points a model, or a brace of pistols at 5 points a model; if the unit has an Outrider, it MUST take a brace of pistols and cannot take any more weapon upgrades. A unit that does not take a brace of pistols may take shields at 1 pt a model. The unit may take heavy armor at 2 points a model; should either shields or armor be taken, the unit ceases to be fast cavalry. The unit may take spears at 1 pt a model, or lances at 2 pts a model.
An Outrider may replace one or both of its pistols with Repeater Pistols at +5 points each. Alternatively, it may upgrade a handgun or musketoon to a repeater handgun or repeater musketoon (respectively) for +5 points.
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Fast cavalry with lances? I like very much.
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darn tootin.
I dearly hope that 8th edition gives the empire some core lancer type fast cavalry. It would make my year
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yup and I especially hope they don't make us build them as a one type unit. a couple different armour options and definately weapon system options. and training options.
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darn tootin.
I dearly hope that 8th edition gives the empire some core lancer type fast cavalry. It would make my year
Naturally, taking either shields or heavy armor would remove the fast cav Status, so they wouldn't be necessarily any more broken than, say, Marauder cavalry with flails. Maybe put in a rule to prevent the use of lances with pistols?
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I was going to suggest a mutually exclusive rule allowing only one or the other but why they actually WERE used that way in real life so why wouldn't they be used this way in a fantasy game. The lance is a used only on the charge weapon anyway so 3 points for a weapon used once in a game most likely is a hefty extra price to pay per model. And it lends itself well to the flexibility of unit types I love so well. Pistol totin hungarian or polish hussars, or HRE transitional lancers double armed with light lance and pistols, they did exist.
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Very good point; with "flexible" rules for light cavalry, one should be able to mimic many historical options. The idea of course was to use Marauder Cavalry as the closest unit of comparison. While Reiters would have more weapon options, the Marauders still have better Weapon Skill and Initiative, Marks, Horselords, and Will of Chaos, so it should balance out roughly.
I will probably rewrite my suggestions for Knights, Outriders, and other stuff later on.
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just a thought but have you seen the cavarly rules for all the various types in WAB's beyond the golden gate? or the multitude of Cav types in Age of Chivalry? If not you should definately look these books up if only for your own edification, these two books combined make up some 90 odd different cav model profiles which all act subtly different, and most of which are what we'd call light cav.
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Wasn't this what Silver Helms used to be like?
Start with lance unbarded steed and light armour and then upgrade all the way to 2+ cavalry?
If they came with that still at about 18 points each (starting) I bet High Elves would consider them a viable option again.
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and you would win that bet 18 inch S 5 cav would be okish as they are there is no reason at all to take them over Dragon Princes.
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Back in the older list when High Elves used a normal Force Organization chart, and Silver Helms were core, it made sense. In the current ASF edition, there's no point to them really...it's rather silly.
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Force organisation chart, bah, we are the new army of the month, we need no such thing.
Basing our army options of Historically accurate HRE would be the bee's knees, pikes, spears, "elite" halberdiers in plate, greatswordsmen that are good for something instead of getting killed and holding. . .
COME ON GW, get a grip.