Topic: A few weeks in

[Baron von Klatz]

I think the problem with partial releases is that GW has a long list of all new models to release and if the competition sees something like a warrior priest 2.0 then they can copy the design and begin making rip-offs by the time GW gets around to focusing on that faction.

That's why the Stormcast, chaos, Sylvaneths and Skaven are in the forefront of AoS, they can't be easily copied by competitors and gives GW time to work on terrain releases and the inevitable 40k releases to pacify that fanbase. That's also why things like free people and Aelves will probably be last on the AoS list, too many companies already make humans and elves.

[red shift]

I don't disagree with you that GW reasons it that way. What I find odd though is that GW have self-declared themselves to make the very best wargaming miniatures. Surely, then, the fact I can buy a warrior priest from mantic doesn't mean I will do over the super-duper characeterful warrior priest that GW sculpts. Why not wipe the competition out by making, as they say, the very best elf/dwarf/landknect sculpts in the world? There is a bizarre situation where GW have told us they are head and shoulders above their competition but have then implied they can't compete against other companies making similar figures.

[GamesPoet]

It's sales talk vs. their choices that attempt to be protective.

[Baron von Klatz]

I don't disagree with you that GW reasons it that way. What I find odd though is that GW have self-declared themselves to make the very best wargaming miniatures. Surely, then, the fact I can buy a warrior priest from mantic doesn't mean I will do over the super-duper characeterful warrior priest that GW sculpts. Why not wipe the competition out by making, as they say, the very best elf/dwarf/landknect sculpts in the world? There is a bizarre situation where GW have told us they are head and shoulders above their competition but have then implied they can't compete against other companies making similar figures.

I imagine the same reason most people buy knockoffs, they're cheaper.

[Yvain]

It's sales talk vs. their choices that attempt to be protective.

Their attempts to both have failed miserably. All they have done is wasted a ton of money suing everyone under the sun and shrunk their customer base by pricing people out.

I have only been involved in wargaming for around 6 years or so. It is amazing how GW took their complete stranglehold on the industry and pissed it away in that time alone. 

[Xathrodox86]

No one among my buddies even sniffed at AoS and my FLGS has almost the same ammount of kits that it had a month ago. In our GW store most peeps play WH40K and WFB.

[Emperor Karl Franz]

Steamhead Duardin, Aelfs, Orruks, and humans will likely be entirely new and get a new aesthetic and not simply be repacks of older models. The problem is that they should've all been introduced together, instead of leaving people who might be interested in those armies wondering for several months what those armies will even look like, nevermind what units they'll have in their respective armies. If GW had had any sense then all of those armies should've been getting releases simultaneously. The Sigmarine releases have been slow enough that it wouldn't have made any difference. They could've released one unit for each army per week and still had a pretty relaxed release schedule, with only four or five releases total per week. Giving new players the option to build their armies together would've been a good plan. Instead all they put out are Sigmarines, some Khorne guys, and a handful of repacks. Not exactly so great if you're a player interested in AOS but not interested in playing Sigmarines.

As for how it's doing, someone on another forum with contacts inside GW has stated that AOS is selling slower than Warhammer Fantasy. I can believe that, given that the limited edition books haven't sold out (the last time GW put out a limited edition which didn't sell out, it was for Dreadfleet) and retailers are flogging these sets online for next to no profit at all. Nobody sells a $125 box for a $10 profit if it's a hot seller. They sell it for that because they're hoping to get rid of it as fast as possible and get their money back before the wheels come off entirely.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

I am not surprised at these prices (although the starter set is relatively cheap). You can put a frog in cold water and cook it slowly until the water boils, without it jumping out of the pot, but no frog will jump into a pot of boiling water. Veteran players have been cooked slowly over the years, but new players are more likley to balk at the current prices.

[ZeroTwentythree]

The other probelm being - continuing that analogy - is that they presumably expect the veteran frogs players to jump into the new boiling pot, instead of continuing to boil in their old pot.

[The Peacemaker]

No.
GW don't even split warhammer and 40k sales apart, so we only know about fantasy poor sales from anecdotal evidence and inference.

I guess we'll see how it's done in general based on their next annual report, which isn't due until July.

can always check dem stock prices.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=games+workshop+stocks&oq=games+workshop+stocks&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.2823j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The narrative GW has been pushing has been our product is so good our customers will always buy and pay top dollar no matter what. Except this time they crapped on their whole WFB veteran crowd by killing off the setting and then just flat out killing the game. No crap they aren't selling because there is no audience for them left. It is a very clear indicator of how GWs "we don't need to market research" plan is a terrible idea.

I saw an article on some crappy finance website that showed up in my facebook newsfeed. It was a typically 'stock boost' type of article. Praising that GW is some kinda of great investment.
it started off by talking about Warren Buffet(ooo, that's an attention getter). And it talked about how warrent buffet always goes for companies with a solid base. Never actually says that Warren Buffet is actually endorsing this company as a good buy.
Heh, then the article goes on to say how it has a solid customer base of young males who will not be getting married anytime soon and have great loyalty to the company.
There is nothing false about the article or they would get in trouble. But the article was totally written to try and get a few % increase for some trader to check out.

But I'll tell you from the tidbits we have seen that its really just the starter set that has sold well. And for obvious reasons - its high quality mini's for cheap, easy to convert.
The rest of the fantasy sales probably tanked hard. Lots of people checked out. Armies were being sold for 30% value, resellers were picking up armies for 10% of their worth!!!

So even if there are new players who join the game because of AoS, GW will only see partial sales from them because after they buy the starter box or a battleforce they will go on the internet and find tons of cheap stuff.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The other probelm being - continuing that analogy - is that they presumably expect the veteran frogs players to jump into the new boiling pot, instead of continuing to boil in their old pot.

I suspect, most veteran players are cooked to a degree they cannot jump at all. And those that do jump cannot fail to notice how free and  refreshing the air outside the pot is, and change course to avoid the new boiling pot.

[Oxycutor]

No.
GW don't even split warhammer and 40k sales apart, so we only know about fantasy poor sales from anecdotal evidence and inference.

I guess we'll see how it's done in general based on their next annual report, which isn't due until July.

can always check dem stock prices.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=games+workshop+stocks&oq=games+workshop+stocks&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.2823j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The narrative GW has been pushing has been our product is so good our customers will always buy and pay top dollar no matter what. Except this time they crapped on their whole WFB veteran crowd by killing off the setting and then just flat out killing the game. No crap they aren't selling because there is no audience for them left. It is a very clear indicator of how GWs "we don't need to market research" plan is a terrible idea.

I saw an article on some crappy finance website that showed up in my facebook newsfeed. It was a typically 'stock boost' type of article. Praising that GW is some kinda of great investment.
it started off by talking about Warren Buffet(ooo, that's an attention getter). And it talked about how warrent buffet always goes for companies with a solid base. Never actually says that Warren Buffet is actually endorsing this company as a good buy.
Heh, then the article goes on to say how it has a solid customer base of young males who will not be getting married anytime soon and have great loyalty to the company.
There is nothing false about the article or they would get in trouble. But the article was totally written to try and get a few % increase for some trader to check out.

But I'll tell you from the tidbits we have seen that its really just the starter set that has sold well. And for obvious reasons - its high quality mini's for cheap, easy to convert.
The rest of the fantasy sales probably tanked hard. Lots of people checked out. Armies were being sold for 30% value, resellers were picking up armies for 10% of their worth!!!

So even if there are new players who join the game because of AoS, GW will only see partial sales from them because after they buy the starter box or a battleforce they will go on the internet and find tons of cheap stuff.

Nothing intentionally false, but the assumption that all games are only ever played by single young men still persists.  No doubt if they elaboarated they would say they were fat, wore glasses and worked in I.T.  And listened to heavy metal.  Some of them don't wash, and have a beard.   

[jtrowell]

Lol, I do work in IT and wear glasses (sometimes), but 3/4 of my wargaming group are people that are married with children, and in each couple both spouses are part of the group. ^_^

[CarolineWellwater]

From Oxycutor

Nothing intentionally false, but the assumption that all games are only ever played by single young men still persists.  No doubt if they elaboarated they would say they were fat, wore glasses and worked in I.T.  And listened to heavy metal.  Some of them don't wash, and have a neck beard.   

Fixed that for you, Oxycutor ^_^  Um... yeah, me and my dumb sense of humor.

And... yet again, if GW really doesn't notice that 1/2 the population has a pair of "X" chromosomes, they're leaving money on the table.  I've already stated my annoyances at when I go into GW stores.

Anyway, I still feel the $125 USD price-tag, even for the starter set, just prices themselves into the "why bother" section.  For that same price, I can get a pretty sweet Smart Phone, get some free-digital-game apps that allow for multiplayer, and get going.  (Admittedly, I'd have to get some sort of monthly cell phone service.)

Or, I could get a nice pack of starter golf clubs.

Or a pretty nice tennis racket.

Or about 2 or 3 new PS3 games.

Or a nice dress, and some matching accessories.

And that doesn't even start to cover the cost of the "recommended army sets".

I could go on.

One of the other things that bugs me, is that their "limited edition" doesn't seem... terribly limited, or even a deal.  Shoot, I can often go into game stores, and ask for military discount and get anywhere from %10 - %25 off.  Anyway, check out some of the Limited Editions offered by game companies Atlus and NISA.  To me, that's how you make a "limited edition".  Offering two of the same set of miniatures at twice the price, with zero bonus, isn't a "limited edition"... or even an offer for that matter.  In the past, when you picked up their army sets, you used to get an extra general character-model or something.  Now... you just pay 2x for two of the same set.

Anyway, shouldn't this post be over on the AoS page?  I know that one poster left over the... overall negativity towards AoS, but... I still think this should be over there. ))

[Champildhir]

One of the other things that bugs me, is that their "limited edition" doesn't seem... terribly limited, or even a deal.  Shoot, I can often go into game stores, and ask for military discount and get anywhere from %10 - %25 off.  Anyway, check out some of the Limited Editions offered by game companies Atlus and NISA.  To me, that's how you make a "limited edition".  Offering two of the same set of miniatures at twice the price, with zero bonus, isn't a "limited edition"... or even an offer for that matter.  In the past, when you picked up their army sets, you used to get an extra general character-model or something.  Now... you just pay 2x for two of the same set.

You mean the bundles, right ? As said elsewhere in this forum, those just save you a few clicks (one I think...). Looks like mocking the customer indeed.

The limited editions of the two books seem to be also "Unsold out", though (2000 copies of the 1st, 1000 of the 2nd, worldwide and still available...).

Apart from how bad the selling strategy of GW is (on the other hand, nothing new under the sun), I like the game and I like what I have seen so far. I have had no time to read everything and still waiting for some stuff to come from Spain with some friends (if you complain about the prices in Europe and the USA, you haven't checked here in Japan... no wonder the games are sooo unpopular among the national Japanese gamers), but so far kinda like it. I am a patient guy also, so I also take into account that it's been just 2 months, and I plan to play with AoS rules with my high elfes for long while the new fluff and races come little by little.

[GamesPoet]

It's sales talk vs. their choices that attempt to be protective.

Their attempts to both have failed miserably. All they have done is wasted a ton of money suing everyone under the sun and shrunk their customer base by pricing people out.

I have only been involved in wargaming for around 6 years or so. It is amazing how GW took their complete stranglehold on the industry and pissed it away in that time alone.

Didn't say they'd been successful.  At the same time, it's caused their integrity to go down in the eyes of many.  They've tried to control too much, a huge mistake, instead of welcoming competiton and finding a way to still thrive.

[GamesPoet]

Steamhead Duardin, Aelfs, Orruks, and humans will likely be entirely new and get a new aesthetic and not simply be repacks of older models. The problem is that they should've all been introduced together, instead of leaving people who might be interested in those armies wondering for several months what those armies will even look like, nevermind what units they'll have in their respective armies. If GW had had any sense then all of those armies should've been getting releases simultaneously.

GW doesn't release things simultaneously, and in fact suspect they hope folks would buy the new stuff, and then buy the next new stuff, etc.

The Sigmarine releases have been slow enough that it wouldn't have made any difference. They could've released one unit for each army per week and still had a pretty relaxed release schedule, with only four or five releases total per week. Giving new players the option to build their armies together would've been a good plan. Instead all they put out are Sigmarines, some Khorne guys, and a handful of repacks. Not exactly so great if you're a player interested in AOS but not interested in playing Sigmarines.

I'm not convinced a simultaneous release would have worked, and they've essentially covered this item by releasing the mix of Warscrolls as they have, which it looks like they've put in quite an effort into that to get things with W:AoS going.  It also shows they aren't uninterested in placating the folks who've already spent big bucks on previous figures.

[GamesPoet]

The other probelm being - continuing that analogy - is that they presumably expect the veteran frogs players to jump into the new boiling pot, instead of continuing to boil in their old pot.

I suspect, most veteran players are cooked to a degree they cannot jump at all. And those that do jump cannot fail to notice how free and  refreshing the air outside the pot is, and change course to avoid the new boiling pot.

[Yvain]

The other probelm being - continuing that analogy - is that they presumably expect the veteran frogs players to jump into the new boiling pot, instead of continuing to boil in their old pot.

I suspect, most veteran players are cooked to a degree they cannot jump at all. And those that do jump cannot fail to notice how free and  refreshing the air outside the pot is, and change course to avoid the new boiling pot.

I think it is worth pointing out that GWs reputation has been reduced from even further than before (I didn't think that it was possible). They are essentially the EA or Comcast of Tabletop Wargaming in a lot of circles. Objectively there are still plenty of reasons (poor rules, expensive models, high start point)  a player should pick another game over 40k, WFB, or AoS. However the main one by far is that GW is a terrible company that cares little about their players.

The WFB switch really shook the veteran crowd. There will always be some dedicated to the setting enough to stay (which also changed), but unless the game was the second coming there is no reason to not realize the frog is now on fire. This is the weird part because new players have to see this as well so it is hard to imagine AoS selling at all in most cases. Everywhere you go there is at least one person that is like F Games Workshop. Some times it is whole game clubs.

[Franz Volker]

You mean the bundles, right ? As said elsewhere in this forum, those just save you a few clicks (one I think...). Looks like mocking the customer indeed.

the article goes on to say how it has a solid customer base of young males who will not be getting married anytime soon and have great loyalty to the company.

Wow...

In other news, if AoS fails, then clearly it's the fault of WFB. The setting lacked potential so hard, it actually sucked the potential out of everything around it, as can be clearly evidenced by AoS's valiant but fruitless effort. Despite GW's best efforts and brightest minds, WFB's suck proved too much. All that's left now is for GW to finally do the right thing and bury and forget it, which is what they should've done from the beginning.
It's really not their fault, they wanted to do it earlier, but it was the fans' love for a setting that could never sell that stayed their hand.
This really should be a lesson to all. Doing the right thing requires a stern hand, especially when guiding young males who will not be getting married anytime soon.

[GamesPoet]

There's some interesting marketing lines for them.

[Xathrodox86]

You mean the bundles, right ? As said elsewhere in this forum, those just save you a few clicks (one I think...). Looks like mocking the customer indeed.

the article goes on to say how it has a solid customer base of young males who will not be getting married anytime soon and have great loyalty to the company.

Wow...

In other news, if AoS fails, then clearly it's the fault of WFB. The setting lacked potential so hard, it actually sucked the potential out of everything around it, as can be clearly evidenced by AoS's valiant but fruitless effort. Despite GW's best efforts and brightest minds, WFB's suck proved too much. All that's left now is for GW to finally do the right thing and bury and forget it, which is what they should've done from the beginning.
It's really not their fault, they wanted to do it earlier, but it was the fans' love for a setting that could never sell that stayed their hand.
This really should be a lesson to all. Doing the right thing requires a stern hand, especially when guiding young males who will not be getting married anytime soon.

Amen to that. I think that a good thing should be remembered for what it was. Just concentrate on 40K GW, and don't make the same mistakes you did with WFB and leave the good, old fantasy to us, old timers.

[StealthKnightSteg]

Well something seems to go good for GW, as again (mentioned in a What's new today post) a new store is being opened, now in Florida. If my memory serves me right I think it's the 4th or 5th new store since AoS launch.

[StealthKnightSteg]

not good...

http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop-agm%3A-relentless-profit-machine

[Zygmund]

Managment have set a course and they will not be deviated.

This is how I've understood it. The path is set. It's not a game company. Changing "Games Workshop" signs to "Warhammer" is logical. Instead of saying "you can buy your games here", it says "you can buy your Warhammer here". And Warhammer is a trade mark for a model line.

Being a foremostly a modeller myself, this is no news to me. But I did love the Renaissance looks. Then again, I can get my Renaissance looks from other companies, and GW knows that.

Must be interesting times for GW as a company. They're leaner than ever, down to one proved product line and just launched another one. They sort of have to succeed, have to start make more profit with these products, otherwise they will fall.

Investors seem to trust them, though. The Jan 2014 fall in the stock price probably let the hot air away. Since then, it has been rather stable, and since the launch of AoS, there's a distinct rise. Clearly, GW is handling the fall much better than it did with the other big falls back in 2000 and 2005. Even if this time there's much more negative noise in the web. Still, eventually the cash flow and profit margins must decide. They can't go on cutting costs forever, if they want to produce something and sell it on the ground. Much of the trust in the stock market is relational, and this is a time when many don't do that well. Thus, GW might seem comparatively good buy, at least at short range.

When is the next official company report out?

-Z