Topic: The 8e Empire Handbook

[Thirsty Beaver]

In my games against skaven (1 with each), the rocket launcher performed much more admirably thanks to the higher strength. Mortar got a lot more hits in, but with the range bubble (can't shooter closer than 12) it gets very few shots and its still crap strength.

I regularly play my FC. Extra attacks is excellent. The downside is they can't be a regiment, but as a 20+ detachment against certain opponents or with magic/warrior priest they are lethal.

Large pie plate at S2 trumps 2 small pie plates at S3 that scatter by the numbers, and that's what the averages for Mortar v. Rocket Battery are. Plus the Rocket Battery is Rare (which has the STank and the Volley Gun) and costs more points. No way it's the better option, and I haven't even talked about the S6 (D3) in the middle. And if the Strength of the hits is an issue, use Shadow magic. I would never use a Mortar without a Toughness debuff.

Free Company are inferior to Halberdiers and Spearmen. Anything they can do, the ones I mentioned can do better, and in the case of the Spearmen for less points.

Holy sh*t.. I've been playing the rocket as special this whole time! Comment retracted. Both are terrible, mortar slightly less so.

And I suppose you have mathhammer to back spears > FC, but I'll stick with my FC thank you very much

[rothgar13]

Just wanted to note that after a ton of editing, I finally got the magic analysis up there. Any thoughts or comments on my ratings welcome.

[Derp]

What category do you put things that are strictly inferior to something else, while not being outright unusable in their own right (cough, gunners, cough).  I'm referring to things like Free company, Swordsmen, potentially flaggies and pistoliers.  Would you rate these as red, green, or yellow?

Also, I think you ought to count some characters with certain mounts under a seperate heading due to how fundamentally they change a unit's uses.  Captisus, Pope-mobile, Griffon, that sort of thing.

I'll make sure to lay into your choices and ratings when I have the time, not to mention adding a few tips/tricks of my own.

[rothgar13]

Red, because there's no reason to take them over their counterparts.

I'll handle the upgrades-that-change-how-unit-X is played in the Formations and Tactics section. I rate them all based on their best-case scenario.

[redflag]

For the detachment section please include the 3x3 detachment.  It can orbit the parent unit and use steadfast to act as a speed bump for the parent unit.

[rothgar13]

Hm, that's clever. I'll be sure to write that up. Thanks!

Edit: Unit ratings and rationale are up. Let me know what you think.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

That's pretty much my definition of Yellow - it sucks in general, but in certain matchups it can do well. I think that against Elves of all flavors and Skaven, and possibly the mirror match, it can be a solid tool, particularly with something like Shadow or Death magic lowering Toughness. Not the most ringing endorsement, I know, but you can wring some use out of it.

That actually sounds plausible and is hard to argue with. I do tend to think that using it with Death or Shadow smacks a bit of taking a weak unit and then throwing more points at it to bring it up to speed but at the same time I realize that many of us already take those lores.

[Commander Bernhardt]

just read through your lore of light magic analysis and I must say I pretty much agree. Lore of light is the lore I field the most! (though I haven't had any situation that light of battle was of real use)
An added bonus to fielding a light mage is that your lvl3 bound spell banishment form the war altar is now S5 also it's worth mentioning that speed of light + timewarp combo gives you not just +1A WS10 I10 ASF but also re-rolls to hit (can be usefull if you lost hatred). Also the double movement from timewarp often proved more usefull than it's combat buffs to me

[Lanceocletian]

Great work Rothgar, very impressive!  I agree with nearly all assessments of troop selections. 

Personally, I would think moving swordsmen and greatswords to yellow based on points cost.  Both tend to die in droves unless augmented by prayers, buff wagons, and spells.  Against S3 infantry driven armies, they are still solid choices, but if your opponent is supporting predominantly str.4-6 attacks, then they tend to lose the combats.

[Slavik]

I would definetly have Priests marked as purple, sure they lack defense but still  cheap for what they can do!

and a very handy topic, thanks for bringing it up

[Krokz]

Pistoliers should definitively be Green. I can get a good use of them vs. any army.
I still haven't saw successful competitive list without Halberdiers so they could be Purple.
It should be noted that a Volleygun without and an engineer is a Green choice.
Huntsmen could be Red.
I personally think Steel standard is not worth the points and would rank it Green.

As for Light lore:
Banishment big advantage is reroll ward saves. Dough blue mark is adequate.
Net of Amyntok is OK for green. You can get a lot out of it vs. elves.
Light of battle is strong spell but it always gets dispelled since you only need it once in a game on a really important moment. It changes a detachment or a vanilla knight unit in a impassable road block for one turn.
Overall lores biggest problem is to much good spells. And sometimes you have to choose which one not to take and that can be the one you end up needing the most as battle develops.

Life lore should be noted that is lacks offensive buffs and magic missiles. It's a grinding army lore.

On the rest I agree or I think my experience with that particular unit is not good enough to have good enough unbiased opinion.

[Commander Bernhardt]

krokz, I think you are underestimating Huntsmen.
their main use is deploying close to enemy warmachines and charge them asap. It's awefully opsetting for our enemies to find a small unit of archers behind their lines and they often tend to send way to expensive units to counter them. They have their uses. I recommend yellow or green, definatly not red

[Krokz]

Fair enough, even dough scouts can't charge on first turn. I just feel we need red and purple in every section (Core, Special, Rare).
I just know how easy is to handle those kind lousy scouts. Firstly not letting them deploy anywhere near and then one magic missile and they panic off the board. Or send any core chaff worth of their points on them. They don't have ranks, they just die and brake.

[zifnab0]

I don't agree with the General being yellow (sub-par) and the Grand Master being green (average).  I would reverse those.

Against a similarly equipped GotE a GM gains +1 WS, +1 A, +1I, and ITP.  He loses HTL and costs an additional 27 points.  He is better than the General in offensive capacity; but against most opponents the same defensively.  Unlike some armies, we don't need our characters to win combat, we rely on them for buffs and leadership.

Where the General really shines is his versitility.  You pay an extra 27 points for a similarly equipped GM (which may or may not be worth it), but the GM can't lead the army in an infantry unit and can't ride a large target for an 18" leadership bubble.

I think you've really underestimated HTL in your rankings.  Taking a general and captain gives you two units with HTL for when you aren't steadfast and lose combat.

I used to use a GM in my knight list, but I've swapped him for a mounted general.  The extra I, WS, and A are nice, but HTL when my knights whiff is a life saver.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Yeah, it's fairly hard for Huntsmen to deploy close to a WM unless your opponent is careless. They also have a hard time to kill most WM except Imperial ones.

[rothgar13]

Lots of comments - excellent! Let me take the time to address them:

@Lord Solar Plexus: Pretty much what you said. If you're already taking Shadow or Death, you might be able to throw a Mortar or two in there and get some good juice out of it, especially if someone shows up with T3 blocks that have a 5+ save or less.

@Lanceocletian: I don't feel that a move to Yellow is warranted for Greatswords and Swordsmen - Swordsmen are the only State Trooper with a parry save and WS4 does a lot to reduce incoming hits against certain stripes of foes, and Greatswords' 4+ save is present and accounted for against anything lower than S6, and even then Stubborn and swinging at S5 is something we can't really get out of other infantry. Are they perfectly priced? No, they really should have been 1ppm lower. But they don't suck.

@Slavik: I'm going to have to disagree on that - if you have a War Altar or a list that doesn't fancy being in close combat, the Priests are far from a necessity.

@Krokz: Pistoliers are overpriced, in my opinion. 18ppm is too much for T3 models with a 5+ save that are incompetent in close combat and only have BS3 (given that Pistols only have a 12", that typically means -1 from double-tap, -1 from long range/stand-and-shoot = hitting on 6s). If they were BS4, I would be more into them.

Halberdiers should not be Purple, and the reason why is that people have reported success with all-mounted Core.

I would also agree that a Volley Gun is probably Green without an Engineer, but this Handbook rates the best-case scenario - barring extremely low-points games, I wouldn't field one without an Engineer, and so the point is moot.

Bernhardt already noted the reason why Huntsmen shouldn't be Red, so I don't feel the need to elaborate.

@zifnab0: Going to have to strongly disagree with the assertions regarding the General v. Grand Master. While the Grand Master is limited in his focus (which is something I already noted), he provides a buff that is far superior to Hold the Line! in Immune to Psychology - it's also more generally applicable (how many times do you take Fear, Panic, or Terror tests? Probably more times than you do Break tests). Moreover, you can get Hold the Line! from a Captain being in the unit - the Grand Master is the only source of unit-wide Immune to Psychology.

As for the point regarding Knights whiffing... that's what a Warrior Priest is for, no?

[Thirsty Beaver]

One comment (though I'm not sure if it would be considered competitive?) on the White Cloak:

You mention it is good for characters on monstrous mounts, I thought I would chip in that I have been having success using it in multiple character units. Added defense for your BSB from a few attacks, but mostly for challenges. Getting the Van Horstmann's Wizard challenge off with a White Cloak wearing character (usually AL for me) standing beside him makes that WS 3 against 5+ even more pathetic.

Thanks again for doing this guide! The magic section has been quite helpful for me

[rothgar13]

Hey guys, just wanted to let you know that after a long combat with the site's 20000 character limit , I finally have both units and items up. Look for Formations and Tactics as well as Sample Army Lists to be put up sometime soon!

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I have an only indirectly related question: How do I calculate that an S2 big blast is better than two small S3 ones?

Greatswords' 4+ save is present and accounted for

Oh no...now I've got this song in my head...Colonel Travis, Davy Crockett and a hundred eighty more; Captain Dickenson, Jim Bowie, present and accounted for...

[Krokz]

@Krokz: Pistoliers are overpriced, in my opinion. 18ppm is too much for T3 models with a 5+ save that are incompetent in close combat and only have BS3 (given that Pistols only have a 12", that typically means -1 from double-tap, -1 from long range/stand-and-shoot = hitting on 6s). If they were BS4, I would be more into them.

If I looked at pistoliers that way then yes. But I don't care how they shoot. I just see fast cavalry for 90 points. If I start the game I place them 1" away from enemy on first turn and they are so wide they block two units. So when enemy starts his first turn he has to charge them or not move two of his strongest units. I have my demigryphs waiting on max overrun range to charge in next turn.
I can't stress enough how many times pistoliers made a good setup for my DKGs and STank or bought me time to come in at flank and won the game.

Everything else is of course negotiable as said. But you say people have good results with cavalry list (I don't know any), and I have very good results with pistoliers in tournaments. Interesting part to me is that you gave Metal lore attribute Red mark even dough its precisely this that counters armies that have AS1+ units Purple

Edit: all my armies have Banner of eternal flame and Gleaming pennant. They are purple for me.

[Thirsty Beaver]

@Krokz: Pistoliers are overpriced, in my opinion. 18ppm is too much for T3 models with a 5+ save that are incompetent in close combat and only have BS3 (given that Pistols only have a 12", that typically means -1 from double-tap, -1 from long range/stand-and-shoot = hitting on 6s). If they were BS4, I would be more into them.

If I looked at pistoliers that way then yes. But I don't care how they shoot. I just see fast cavalry for 90 points. If I start the game I place them 1" away from enemy on first turn and they are so wide they block two units. So when enemy starts his first turn he has to charge them or not move two of his strongest units. I have my demigryphs waiting on max overrun range to charge in next turn.
I can't stress enough how many times pistoliers made a good setup for my DKGs and STank or bought me time to come in at flank and won the game.

Everything else is of course negotiable as said. But you say people have good results with cavalry list (I don't know any), and I have very good results with pistoliers in tournaments. Interesting part to me is that you gave Metal lore attribute Red mark even dough its precisely this that counters armies that have AS1+ units Purple

Edit: all my armies have Banner of eternal flame and Gleaming pennant. They are purple for me.

I agree with this post!

Out of curiosity, if you could only have gleaming OR Eternal, which would you take? I'm struggling with this for an upcoming game where I only have two blocks with banners, and the GSs are getting Discipline. Not sure what to give my ICK

[Krokz]

Out of curiosity, if you could only have gleaming OR Eternal, which would you take? I'm struggling with this for an upcoming game where I only have two blocks with banners, and the GSs are getting Discipline. Not sure what to give my ICK

Depends on the enemy (Fire) and your army (Gleaming).
Gleaming is good for a unit that is away from your BSB. Flankers or flank guards.
Fire is good for anything coz its so cheep. I like it on something fast so it can come across battlefield if regeneration monsters are there. Also it is better on I4 units (like DGKs) so regeneration is off for you I3 state troops. Helped me on trolls several times.


Big thumbs to the topic/idea btw. I wish I had something like this when I started Empire. Only thing that sucks is 3000 characters limit and that is not really your fault. Half of the descriptions would deserve a sentence or two more.

[rothgar13]

But Krokz, that's not anything unique to Pistoliers - any Vanguard unit can do it. Consider that if that's all you want, VC Dire Wolves can do it for 40 points, O&G Goblin Wolf Riders can do it for 50, and even Chaos Marauder Horsemen will do it for 70. I think Pistoliers are overpriced because they're poorly armored Fast Cav that has low BS and doesn't offer much beyond its unit type. As to what I would do in that situation... I'd back my big block up and let a chaff unit like a Chariot wipe the Pistoliers out, or take the bait if I have a unit whom I fancy in combat against the Demigryphs (but in that case you're probably trying to redirect, not bait).

The reason why I give the Metal Lore Attribute a Red is because it shouldn't be a Lore Attribute at all - it should be written into the text for Searing Doom and Gehenna's Golden Hounds. Those are the only two spells in the Lore that can use it. Metal should have had a bonus effect that most of the spells in the Lore could use - instead, they went the lazy route and 5/7 of the Lore got screwed.

@Lord Solar Plexus: Here, I wouldn't use the word "calculation" as much as I would use "rough approximation" - take your big template and see how many models you can tag with it, then account for scatter in several directions to see how many you can expect to hit (average scatter works out to roughly 3 1/3", which comes from the 2/3 chance to scatter and the mean result of 5 on the artillery dice). Next, do the same for the small template, and figure out how many models are hit when you add them both up. I'd wager that the large template is either even with the double small template, or has a slight edge.

Edit: Also just noticed that I left out Volkmar the Grim. It took a bit more finagling, but I got his blurb in there.

[BBorN]

Light of Battle: While auto-rallying and auto-passing Leadership tests is a nice way to make up for the dice failing you, its applicability is limited, since you have to be in a situation to take those tests (or where rallying is unlikely) for this to make an impact. Not bad, but not something you'll be throwing out there every turn.

gotta disagree a bit here - you forget what you can do with auto-passing leadership, you effectively make a unit unbreakable with this spell. How many times I have used this spell on a unit that I know will lose combat, but I want them to hold simply because it puts me in a situation to counter charge etc. A whole lot of utility for not much casting cost IMO.

also, regarding Marius Lietdorf. you realize he is a GM for like 20 points cheaper right? same attacks, WS, I etc, still high armor save, with a runefang. As for his going crazy thing, you have to fail a leadership 9 test and will most likely be in range of the bsb. I would take him over a plain GM any day since he will save some points.

[rothgar13]

The difference between a 2+ and a 1+ is quite significant, and he doesn't bring unit-wide ItP. He's a poor man's Grand Master. It's also worth noting that he takes that Ld test on reverse Cold-Blooded (3D6, discard the lowest), so it's entirely possible to fail.

And Light of Battle would be a bigger deal if Stubborn/Steadfast/Unbreakable weren't so darned easy to get in this army. Flagellants, Archer Detachments, Greatswords, Reiksguard, Crown of Command, the Tank... you get the picture.