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Warhammer-Empire Website => The Town Guild Hall ... => The Visiting Embassy => Topic started by: Siberius on February 17, 2008, 03:00:44 AM

Title: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Siberius on February 17, 2008, 03:00:44 AM
I hate to say it in this hallowed place... but I am also a beasts player.

Something has been bothering me.

What is going on with minotaurs? I mean, they haven't been updated in... is a decade over the top for an estimation?

And now I look on the US online store and all I can see is the standard bearer.

This saddens me as well, I like minotaurs (infact we were just playing a battle tonight and 4 of them wiped a unit of Glade Riders right out in one phase of combat without need for breaktests, yummy!) and I've got friends who also are starting down the bestial path who want them.

No one happens to know if, I don't know, maybe one day in the not too distant future they might actually update the models or something unthinkable do they?

*sniffle*

And to be honest the same is true of dragon ogres. I love the idea but those miniatures are just too cartoony for me, always have been, to the point where I won't buy them... the bottom starts ok but by the time you get to the weird torso pose and teh sticky out tongues... eesh.

Is it just me or does it seem crazy to anyone else that neither of these two regi's have got or look set to be updated?

I'll go paint some of my Hochlanders now to get the chaotic thoughts from my head  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Calvin on February 17, 2008, 06:54:53 AM
I don't have any info to add but I just want to say that I'm a big Minotaur fan too. For a long time I've wanted to do a Greek Mythology inspired army, they would be counts-as ogres.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Soju on February 17, 2008, 07:27:31 AM
True... it is odd, what other minis have they not updated?

Minotaurs
Dragon Ogres
Stegadon


Hmmm what else?

sj
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: The Student on February 17, 2008, 11:28:42 AM
Stone trolls and river trolls have not been updated. They had a plastic troll in the Battle for Skull Pass but as far as I know nothing came of it. Have I don't think flesh hounds or hounds of chaos been updated.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 17, 2008, 11:34:15 AM
Siberius I am with you, they need to update the minotaur models and I get the feeling we may see a plastic box coming soon.  I thin the reason they loath to update some of these models is because they are not big sellers, most people only need 4 of them in an entire army.  I have 14, and need another 16 or so, so plastics will be a boon for me.

The other issue is that they are still pretty decent for the most part.  They do suffer from very similar poses, but they still get the job done.  Likewise with Dragonogres (who don't see as much play but are still very popular).

Minotaurs are what started my 5000 points worth of beastmen.  In 5th (1998 or 1999) I saw the picture of the Minotaur lord and new that they were the army for me.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: McKnight on February 17, 2008, 12:03:58 PM
Siberius I am with you, they need to update the minotaur models and I get the feeling we may see a plastic box coming soon.  I thin the reason they loath to update some of these models is because they are not big sellers, most people only need 4 of them in an entire army.  I have 14, and need another 16 or so, so plastics will be a boon for me.

The other issue is that they are still pretty decent for the most part.  They do suffer from very similar poses, but they still get the job done.  Likewise with Dragonogres (who don't see as much play but are still very popular).

Minotaurs are what started my 5000 points worth of beastmen.  In 5th (1998 or 1999) I saw the picture of the Minotaur lord and new that they were the army for me.

Phil

Doombull army!! :ph34r:

Not only have they not been updated for years, they are also crazily exppensive.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 17, 2008, 12:27:05 PM
Well they aren't that bad.  With a GW they run 44 points.  The have another point of WS, 2 more points of Inititive, and another d6 pursue die over Ironguts, though the the ogres get Heavy Armor and cost another 4 points each.  Plus the Minotaur can get marked (which does haul their points way up).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 17, 2008, 12:39:46 PM
Yeh, I can't say that the minotaurs were bad particularly, I liked the models... but as you say, they are all very samey in thier poses and that always puts me off anything. I like variety. If they really did do a plastic set, well it'd be a dream come true... course we'd be seeing a lot of all minotaur armies around *gulp*

Do people really like the dragon ogre models then? I just can't bring myself too even after all this time.

Philly, Maybe he meant expensive in money terms? They sure seem so to me. (another reason plastics would be groovy)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: The Student on February 17, 2008, 01:25:50 PM
I have some dragon ogres. They are not that bad but I do think that they need updating. If they updated them to look more like the shaggoth it would be good.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 17, 2008, 01:35:38 PM
Now that you mention it that is probably what he meant, my bad!

I snag them whenever they stay around $12 on Ebay.  Picked them up in bits and peices over the last 9 years.

The DO aren't that bad really, and since they just aren't used often I would seriously doubt we will see them redone anytime soon.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 17, 2008, 02:38:22 PM
Yeh, they could be like mini shaggoths  :biggriin:

I guess maybe that's what I'll have to start doing, ebay here I come!
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 17, 2008, 02:52:30 PM
I am greenstuffing my DO, making it look like he has a shaggy mane (all over his lower body, so he looks more like a centigor than a OG).

Ebay really is the way to go.  I was an auction with 16 Minotaur go for only $220 last year.  It broke my heart but I was in Empire mode and spending away for them.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Alexander de Wissont on February 17, 2008, 03:05:20 PM
Ebay really is the way to go.  I was an auction with 16 Minotaur go for only $220 last year.  It broke my heart but I was in Empire mode and spending away for them.

Phil
How can someone change his army mode?
Good model+Good price+Army I collect=I buy. That's so easy. :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 17, 2008, 05:08:11 PM
Well I had just purchased 5 state troop boxes, 2 boxes of metal flagellants, 2 old battalion boxes, and a helstorm missle battery (the first of three!).

I was pretty much tapped out for that month.  I still made a play (too good a deal to pass up) but once it passed $200 I was out (it had another $45 or so S&H).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: McKnight on February 17, 2008, 05:40:43 PM
Well I had just purchased 5 state troop boxes, 2 boxes of metal flagellants, 2 old battalion boxes, and a helstorm missle battery (the first of three!).

I was pretty much tapped out for that month.  I still made a play (too good a deal to pass up) but once it passed $200 I was out (it had another $45 or so S&H).

Phil

Was that in that LGS store or after?  :Ohmy:
One can many times feel when he has crossed the line in cash spent on WH.. well at least i can. I cancelled an order the other day and was tempted to put the money into more WH, but something in the back of my head told me not to. Although i might buy some flaggies in order to  make my conversion for the contest.


Oh yea Philly i was talking about their price in $ not in pts. In pts they seem fair... Well as long as my 5 knillas are able to drive 3 charging minotaurs off, i dont care about the price  :happy:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on February 18, 2008, 12:06:58 AM
Dragon ogres are very old models, far older than the minotaurs which I class as reasonably new. :)

When I first started gaming back in 94 they were old models then...  The current minos were not released then.  I like the minotaur models, perhaps they are a little dated but still pretty nice.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 18, 2008, 01:49:35 AM
It's not that I don't like them like them (minotaurs that is), maybe just that I feel some variation might be nice.

Infact I've often wished that GW would leave some minis alone but make more diffo poses for teh same kind of thing allowing more variety (which is nice for me) whilst allowing them all to fit alongside each other. Especially now that they have got some really wonderful minis out. I mean, wood elves, dark elves, heck even the beast herd, most stuff they put out now is great (most) but I'd love the variety.

I know it won't happen because people won't buy enough of them etc... but I can dream eh?

Maybe I need to get some new (well, old) minotaurs and get the old green stuff out
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 18, 2008, 01:51:25 AM
That comment from Crimson about quite how old the DO's are...

Are they the oldest models do you reckon in the entire 'current' GW range? I can't think of anything much older which isn't kinda just around as a 'if you wanna get it...' (like the old elector counts).
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Warlord on February 18, 2008, 01:53:26 AM
They have released new metal trolls in the same style as the BfSP one.

I like the current Minotaurs - well the ones with GW's anyway the ones with 2 Hand Weapons all look EXACTLY the same.

And I have seen PLENTY of people converting their Dragon Ogres using the new Plastic Ogre sprues for Torsos - however I guess is a more expensive way of doing it...

I have also thought of potentially using some Rat Ogre bodies as Minotaur bodies and add some extra bits from the plastic Beast Herd sprue, as well as some Greenstuff.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 18, 2008, 01:56:16 AM
Yes... I've wondered about rat ogres myself... nice ideas there...

It's the 2 hand weapon ones that peave me the most really cos like you say they are all pretty much equally posed.

The great weapon ones are cool  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Cannonofdoom on February 18, 2008, 03:56:08 PM
I have a Minotaur Army, led by a Doombull. Followers of Khorne they are. All with Great Weapons. Doombull has Hvy Armor, Shield, and Hellfire Sword.

They chew everything up. I made them Khorne so they would be easier for people to beat, as I find Slanesh or Nurgle Minotaurs to be a little over the top in that quantity.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2008, 04:17:23 PM
CannonofDoom, you really think you are doing people a favor by making them Khorne?  They are about as good as the Nurgle ones (4+AS is awesome), but far better than Slaanesh.

With the dispel dice, and the frenzy coupled with the plethora of Beastherds to block charge lanes and prevent baiting means you can run a load of minotaur and slam the enemy with combined chariot charges.  Thats how I run mine anyway.

As for Doombull equipment, HA and the Slaughterers Blade are the only way to go with me.  The S7 and 4+ to regain wounds is just too good since you cannot give him the ward save or great armor save he really needs to win at character vs character combats.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Cannonofdoom on February 18, 2008, 04:40:25 PM
Hahahaha .... beast herds.


No, I run Straight Minotaurs. Nothing to block charge lanes, so my dood get led around. I have Minotaurs for the fun factor, nothing else. If I ran beast herds and chariots and more than one character, I wouldn't run them as Khorne, I'd run them undivided like my mortal army.

And the Hellfire Sword works for me, especially to scare the bejeezus out of the local WE player and his treeman ancient. I generally only need a single wound to get through, and characters die. Only Dwarf Lords generally survive.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2008, 04:45:22 PM
Ahh... I run mine as an actual competitive army.  I have 5000 points worht of Beasts so I have plenty of options.

The helfire sword is great, but refused challenges and high armor saves are its bane.  The Lord only has S5 and WS6, so they don't do very well against wards and AS.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Cannonofdoom on February 18, 2008, 04:46:44 PM
Yup, if I wanted to be competitive I would play scrabble.

With Warhammer I just try to have fun.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2008, 04:54:25 PM
Well I do have fun, I just think it is easy to justify using beastmen fluffwise.

Plus I don't have enough minotaur for 2250, I need to add a few models.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 18, 2008, 04:57:46 PM
There was one guy in Freiburg that had his beast army converted with bits from the Tyranids..his dragon ogres were part dragons part Tyranid warriors...looked quite nice...the giant was ....terrifying.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on February 18, 2008, 06:00:43 PM
The only other current models that I can think are as old as the dragon ogres, perhaps even older are the stone and river trolls.

Both ranges still look pretty good too!  A lot better than the dragon ogres anyhow.

Bearing mind when dragon ogres were new, things like those monopose beastmen with halberds were pretty good plastic models....Us empire had them horrible halberdier models.  Our plastic warhorse was out then too...
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Qrab on February 18, 2008, 06:10:34 PM
In addition to the limited poses, the GW Minotaurs have no necks and horns pointing in a direction (forward) that would cause them to ram their snout into anything they tried to gore.

Dragon Ogres are also have limited poses, but the models themselves have much more character than the Minotaurs. The Shaggoth is a really nice looking model, but it's got a Wood Elf feel to it.

Both Minotaurs and Dragon Ogres need new models; the first because they flat out suck, the second because the concept has been updated.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2008, 06:34:06 PM
In addition to the limited poses, the GW Minotaurs have no necks and horns pointing in a direction (forward) that would cause them to ram their snout into anything they tried to gore.

True, but most cows (American varieties anyway) have horns that actially point in a similar fashion.  They tend to buck their heads and gore things that are to the side of their snout.  I was once lanced in the kidney area by a bull while I was trying to feed it 9pouring the grain into the trough).  It slapped its nose against the side of my thigh, then swung his head upward, running its nose up my leg until the horn (which had been cut back and blunted thank god) slammed into my back next to my spine.  I was picked up slightly by the force and it scared the crap out of me.

Quote
Dragon Ogres are also have limited poses, but the models themselves have much more character than the Minotaurs. The Shaggoth is a really nice looking model, but it's got a Wood Elf feel to it.

Wood elf...  I'm not seeing that...

Quote
Both Minotaurs and Dragon Ogres need new models; the first because they flat out suck, the second because the concept has been updated.

I think plastic minotaur are possible (though I am not certain - they didn't do new trolls other than the one bland one)  the DO will probably not get one.  They do look outdated but they are passible.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Qrab on February 18, 2008, 06:48:37 PM
I suppose the angle of the horn depends on the breed, but in the Warhammer universe I'd think that Minotaurs would mutate so that their horns were more effective.

The Shaggoth has braids and little spites in its hair.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2008, 06:50:19 PM
The Shaggoth has braids and little spites in its hair.

Ahhh... I got yah.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Calvin on February 18, 2008, 07:08:29 PM
I love the stone trolls, they are some of my favourite GW monsters.

Also, on the Minotaur front, I want one of these ancient ones:

(http://www.trilemma.com/warmaster/miniatures/images/minotaur.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 18, 2008, 07:28:43 PM
Yeh, those old trolls are still cool.

I really do hope they renew the dragon ogres. Like Qrab said, they have kinda been updated a little. Through the way the shaggoth is if nothing else. If they could get some of the menace and yet... I don't know... poise of the newer beasts models I'd be a happy man/beast.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on February 18, 2008, 07:46:39 PM
Thing is in rules terms a single dragon ogre is nearly as good as a shaggoth.  A unit of them is easily better 9 times out of 10.

The fact the models are old and tired doesnt prevent me using them.  Ive been banned by my gaming group from buying a second unit of 4 dragon ogres because they are so powerful.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Qrab on February 18, 2008, 11:37:21 PM
@ Calvin: I have that Minotaur Lord. I should strip the paint & repaint him. Definitely a sweet model.

@ Crimsonsphinx: A single Dragon Ogre doesn't come close to a Shaggoth. In addition to the better profile, you can't underestimate Terror and ITP. 3 Dragon Ogres are generally better than a Shaggoth, but as with a lot of warhammer units it depends on how you use them.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 19, 2008, 12:59:15 AM
I think he means they both hit with S7 and the shaggoth only gets two more attacks, 5 versus 3.  Three dragonogres get 9 S7 attacks and cost the same while still having a higher unit strength and not being a large target.

The terror is great, but I think he meant combat potential.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on February 19, 2008, 02:14:35 AM
All of you  ::heretic::

Except McKnight.  All I can say is I am very disapointed in you.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Qrab on February 19, 2008, 02:46:27 AM
I agree that a unit of Dragon Ogres has better combat potential when just looking at the number of attacks. However, the Shaggoth is more maneuverable, has a higher WS, T, and Ld, and is ItP. As I said, it all comes down to how each of them get used.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 19, 2008, 02:53:09 AM
My beastmen are very kindly folk who help little old ladies cross the road and stuff...

My minotaurs give little children rides on their backs and sing them to sleep at night...

Do I avoid a burning?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Shadowwolf on February 19, 2008, 08:41:57 AM
I'm setting up a unit of custom Ironguts, The Talabheim Zoo squadron, concisting of an ogre, two river trolls and a minotaur  :happy: All the cool 40mm bases monsters!  :smile2:

I did some reposing of the minotaur, and he got into a pretty nasty pose! Instead of the flat pose, he got a running one, swinging his GW and tackling whatever is in front of him! Gotta take a pic of him when he's painted...

Shadowwolf
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 19, 2008, 11:53:59 AM
My beastmen are very kindly folk who help little old ladies cross the road and stuff...

My minotaurs give little children rides on their backs and sing them to sleep at night...

Do I avoid a burning?

That is so beautiful!   :icon_cry:

Shadowwolf:  Please take a picture, I have two new minotaur ready to be pinned and glued, so anything that looks different than the ones I already have will be great.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 20, 2008, 12:46:23 AM
 :engel: :engel: :engel: :engel: <--- my minos
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Powder Monkey on February 20, 2008, 02:47:54 AM
 ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: <--- After the inquisition paid a visit...


Your  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Calvin on February 20, 2008, 05:58:52 AM
I think I quite clearly stated that I like Minotaurs due to a Greek mythology connection, nothing to do with the Chaos aspect.  :engel:

@Qrab, You wouldn't happen to know its official name, or a part number or anything..? I haven't even been able to find it on SoL (though I admit my search could have perhaps been more through).
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Shadowlord on February 20, 2008, 07:05:24 AM
Minotaurs are what started my 5000 points worth of beastmen.  In 5th (1998 or 1999) I saw the picture of the Minotaur lord and new that they were the army for me.

You got hooked on the goatee and nothing else Mr. Perv!

Minos and Beastmen are cool, and I do find the current models sufficient (they paint up real well, did two for a friend). That being said, there are loose rumours that the HoC and BoC will become one book over at Warseer but of late, that seems to be a false rumour. Now the HoC is out later this year by "comfirmed" sources, so we will see what happens. We should be able to see some new greens eventually.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on February 20, 2008, 10:14:34 AM
I think I quite clearly stated that I like Minotaurs due to a Greek mythology connection, nothing to do with the Chaos aspect.  :engel:

@Qrab, You wouldn't happen to know its official name, or a part number or anything..? I haven't even been able to find it on SoL (though I admit my search could have perhaps been more through).
you like the idea of Daedalus making a cow suit, for King Minos' wife (her name escapes me) to climb inside, to get rogered by a giant bull...?

one sick mofo, lol.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on February 20, 2008, 11:23:11 AM
Notts, those sorts of people are called furries arn't they?  Not to be confused by the mythological or warhammer furies :)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 20, 2008, 11:47:42 AM
You got hooked on the goatee and nothing else Mr. Perv!

I know... I'm a horrible person.

Quote
Minos and Beastmen are cool, and I do find the current models sufficient (they paint up real well, did two for a friend). That being said, there are loose rumours that the HoC and BoC will become one book over at Warseer but of late, that seems to be a false rumour. Now the HoC is out later this year by "comfirmed" sources, so we will see what happens. We should be able to see some new greens eventually.

I was sweating about that at first, dreams of 'count's as' dancing in my head.  But it does seem that has been canned according to those Warseer threads.  Good thing too.  I think there are a fair number of Beast players, so hopefully they don't nerf us.  I always liked them because back then they were the least popular.  I have really gotten into the fluff though.  I think they did a stellar job.  The only problem is they havn't yet answered the age old question: Do beastmen breed in the wild or do all new ones some from deformed babiees, both animal and human?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on February 20, 2008, 11:23:18 PM
Beastmen in the background are their own race, but they adopt human mutants according to pretty much all the novels I have read.

However no such things seem to exist in fantasy battle, so im not much sure. 
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Calvin on February 21, 2008, 04:28:39 AM
And if I say I think dogs make good pets does it mean I like to watch them shag?  :icon_rolleyes:

Really, according to the myth the Minotaur was more like a Warhammer Beastman.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Theseus_Minotaur_Ramey_Tuileries.jpg/542px-Theseus_Minotaur_Ramey_Tuileries.jpg)

If I did make that mythology inspired army it would be just that; mythologically inspired, not necessarily accurate.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on February 21, 2008, 04:55:30 AM
And if I say I think dogs make good pets does it mean I like to watch them shag?  :icon_rolleyes:
I don't know?  Do you?

Revenge for locking out my avatar.  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Qrab on February 21, 2008, 05:05:39 AM
@Qrab, You wouldn't happen to know its official name, or a part number or anything..? I haven't even been able to find it on SoL (though I admit my search could have perhaps been more through).

That model is known by the awesome name of OX-ROAR CHAOS CHAMPION OF ULTIMATE SLAUGHTER in the 1991 Citadel catalog. I couldn't tell you if GW still uses the mold, though. Somehow I think it went out of production a while ago.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Calvin on February 21, 2008, 05:29:35 AM
Thanks! At least now I have something to search with!

@ Rufas... you have seen only the faintest glimmer of my true powers...
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Shadowwolf on February 21, 2008, 08:29:33 AM
Shadowwolf:  Please take a picture, I have two new minotaur ready to be pinned and glued, so anything that looks different than the ones I already have will be great.

Phil
At your service  :smile2:
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/PICT9413.jpg)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/PICT9412.jpg)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/PICT9411.jpg)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/PICT9410.jpg)

A head swap, sligt tilting, a little bit of bending of the left leg an Vióla!

Still WIP, though...

Shadowwolf
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 21, 2008, 11:26:24 AM
If you could bring out a line of those Shadow I'd be most pleased  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 21, 2008, 12:42:10 PM
Ohhhhh... I like those!  Did you just twist the leg?  Being a massive pile of pewter it is hard to move the upper body.  What did you do exatly to get the head to tip?  Or is that just the position it came in after turning the lower body?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Shadowwolf on February 21, 2008, 01:06:38 PM
It's not his original head, it's another mino head. I greenstuffed some fur between the neck and the head after turning the head. His spine doesn't really connect to the head... But that is hard to see with his muscular back  :happy:
The main body is untouched, as is the arms. I only bent the left leg a little and affixed the other mino head.

He doesn't rank up very well, though, as his axe is in mid swing, at shoulder height of his mates...  :ph34r:

Shadowwolf
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Cannonofdoom on February 21, 2008, 03:38:51 PM
Great Weapoon Minotaurs rank up poorly anyway.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Raulmichile on February 21, 2008, 05:30:34 PM
Nice conversion.

Minos are the only monster I lack in my Chaos army.  If only they were plastic... :eusa_wall:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on February 21, 2008, 07:46:32 PM
My three great weapon ones rank up OK.  If you build them one at a time, and position them properly before gluing, they line up just fine.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 21, 2008, 10:34:02 PM
Yeah, they can be a pain if you put them together without checking with their buddy.  I normally have to turn them so their axe is pointing out the back.  They look a little awkward.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Qrab on February 22, 2008, 02:43:42 AM
My Nurgle Minotaurs. The GW models are so bad I had to put bags over their heads:

(http://www.pbase.com/qrab/image/72915849.jpg]http://www.pbase.com/qrab/image/72915849.jpg)

Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Cannonofdoom on February 22, 2008, 04:58:34 AM
I like those Nurgletors.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on February 22, 2008, 10:51:52 AM
Here are my three minotaurs of slaanesh all ranked up.

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/minotaurs005.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Shadowwolf on February 22, 2008, 12:07:06 PM
Ooooh! Really nice! I like those Nurgle beasties!  :smile2: Changing the color of the skin makes so much difference! Unfortunately, the models look so very static... As if they're just standing around.

Shadowwolf
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 22, 2008, 12:16:11 PM
Okay, I like everyones minotaur!

Qrab: Those hoods are cool, I think I may try that with the two I have though it is something often considered a distinctly Nurgle thing.  I know Bestigor often wear hoods but still.  I also like the fact that you made the three hole symbol on the Great Cleavers.  Did you just use a pinvice to do that?

Crimson:  I thought you said you couldn't paint?  I love those Minos!  Do they see as much play as your DO?  Probably not ah?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on February 22, 2008, 12:22:54 PM
My minos see a lot of action   :wink:

I would use them more than I do if I had 4.  Unfortunatly, it was an inspired weekend when I painted those and I think I would be unable to replicate the skin colour, which was mixed from terracotta and dark flesh, wet highlighting, although you can't see that particually on my great photographing skills.

Only a tiny amount of pink on them too, just enough to look slaanesh!
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 22, 2008, 12:57:21 PM
This is cool... seeing these minos and the way you painted them has reinvigorated my love of the 2 horned man beasts  :::cheers:::

When I get round to it I will post the pics of mine... maybe I will do that today... I can hear them calling...

or it could be the cat, how does one tell the difference?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Powder Monkey on February 22, 2008, 01:07:51 PM
I can hear them calling...

or it could be the cat, how does one tell the difference?

Ask Philly...



Your  :engel: PM
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 22, 2008, 01:09:22 PM
Boy, in that pic of the statue, the minotaur sure knows the vulnerable areas to go for eh? Maybe they should have killing blow or something...
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 22, 2008, 01:21:42 PM
One kicks when you grab them.
 :icon_mrgreen:
Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Qrab on February 22, 2008, 02:01:19 PM
@ Philly: yup, a pinvice was used to drill the holes. Every bladed weapon in my Nurgle army has been swapped for a cleaver with three holes.

In addition to the scales and the leather hoods, I repositioned the horns and added necks to those Minotaurs. I have one more in the blister that has been languishing.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Misfratz on February 22, 2008, 02:06:36 PM
Re: Dragon Ogres - People could do worse than to search about on the herdstone for pictures of conversions done there.  In particular a poster by the name of "Happy Scrappy Hero Pup" (or similar) has done some amazing conversions using a Krootox and the Ogre plastics, and someone else used a cold one body in place of the Krootox.

You might hope for plastic minotaurs, particularly following the Ogres and Rat Ogres.  I suppose it depends on how much they wish to encourage the use of Doombull armies.  More likely might be a frame of chaotic bits that they could add to the existing Ogre Kingdom plastics to make Chaos Ogres.  That would presumably be cheaper.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 22, 2008, 02:39:23 PM
I am using greenstuff to make the dragon portion of the DO look like Centigor fur, shaggy like a rhinox.  Seems more appropriate for a Beastmen army.


Qrab:  Thats a cool idea.  I use warpaintto give my army a unique appearance.  I will get my minotaur up in a bit.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 22, 2008, 05:48:15 PM
I guess my minos are in two units (or one bigger one)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/MinotaurUnit1.jpg)
The at least slighty more unusual ones


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/MinotaurUnit2.jpg)
And the more boring ones



and are painted exactly the same as the rest of my army...


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/BeastherdCommand.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/BeastsBattleStandard.jpg)

See?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 24, 2008, 03:24:01 AM
So ur, does anyone else have pics of their minos? Seeing some of the ways that some of you have painted/modelled yours is getting me all inspired about them  :biggriin:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 24, 2008, 12:03:10 PM
My camera is messing up, I was trying to get magic pics for Perambulator on Thursday when the pictures started coming out all white.

Once I get it corrected I will post mine.

I like the scheme and the baseing method you used by the way.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 24, 2008, 12:46:29 PM
Thanks  :-), I'm not really the best painter in the world but I must admit I was pleased with the way those bases turned out (though looking at the pics I really must go round the base bottoms again  :icon_redface:)

I shall forgive you for not having a working camera.... for now... but if it doens't start working soon...  ::heretic::
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on February 26, 2008, 07:56:20 AM
My base bottoms are slightly going green now, rather than staying brown.  Unfortunatly in the old days I used to paint green bases then I swopped to brown because it looks neater.  Same as all the flock on mine has been sunbleached from green to brown too.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Bede on February 26, 2008, 08:35:04 AM
http://www.inchhighgames.com/webstore/minounit.html

 :icon_cool:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 26, 2008, 11:16:55 AM
Wow Bede, those are soem nice looking minis, are they the right size for WH?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 26, 2008, 11:31:04 AM
Good question.  How much are they?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Bede on February 26, 2008, 12:58:48 PM
Wow Bede, those are soem nice looking minis, are they the right size for WH?

Yes sir and they paint up a treat.


Good question.  How much are they?

Phil

http://www.inchhighgames.com/webstore.html
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Alexander de Wissont on February 26, 2008, 04:58:50 PM
Have you seen those orcsies? Bye-bye GW's stupid Savage greenskins
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 26, 2008, 06:42:44 PM
Interesting models, prices are too high though.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Bede on February 26, 2008, 07:22:35 PM
Interesting models, prices are too high though.

Phil

 How do they compare with GW Minotaurs for price?
The Inch High models are US $54 dollars for 3 rather nice Minotaurs.

This GW Minotaur is $20 on his own and he is an old model now.
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=302807&orignav=301128&ParentID=250221&GameNav=13

This guy is quite nice but he is $22 dollars and you wouldn't want to many of him in your army because the pose is too distinctive.
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=Individual&code=99061101015&orignav=9

GW are making the Inch High Minotaurs look cheap in comparison.
$44 dollars for two Minotaurs compared to $54 dollars for 3 from Inch High. :icon_wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 26, 2008, 10:30:59 PM
The prices seemed kinda high to me too but then when I started thinking about it, it was mainly because I am just stingey.  :icon_redface:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Qrab on February 26, 2008, 11:15:44 PM
The Inch High Minos are resin, the GW Minos are pewter. Each have their advantages & disadvantages.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Doop123 on February 27, 2008, 12:29:16 AM
I don't have any info to add but I just want to say that I'm a big Minotaur fan too. For a long time I've wanted to do a Greek Mythology inspired army, they would be counts-as ogres.

I have always thought that that would look cool. I got the idea wen looking at some of the differant DOW troops.

(http://uk.games-workshop.com/dogsofwar/miniature-gallery/images/alcatani-big.jpg)

All you need to do is add some of the old empire spearmen shields and you have some Hopelites.

(http://uk.games-workshop.com/beastsofchaos/miniature-gallery/images/minotaur.gif)

I'm not saying that it would be easy but there is potential there.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 27, 2008, 01:55:44 AM
How do they compare with GW Minotaurs for price?
The Inch High models are US $54 dollars for 3 rather nice Minotaurs.

They are nice Bede, but for $60 I can get 3 Minos and then make some changes to them while maintaining consistancy over my army.  The problem with these three is they look nothing like the rest of the GW line so will be slightly out of place.  While they are fine models I would probably buy them at $15 but no more.

Qrab, what exactly are the advantages and disadvantages with Resin models?  Something about them has always made me steer clear.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: offroadfury88 on February 27, 2008, 02:12:39 AM
Qrab, what exactly are the advantages and disadvantages with Resin models?  Something about them has always made me steer clear.

I was wrong  :blush:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 27, 2008, 02:22:16 AM
No kidding!

God thats not good...

Another reason to stay away...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 27, 2008, 03:08:43 AM
Yeh but Philly... minotaurs with poisoned weapons...  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Bede on February 27, 2008, 06:35:00 AM
Qrab, what exactly are the advantages and disadvantages with Resin models?  Something about them has always made me steer clear.

Resin is very poisonous. You Have wash the minis and wear one of those white mouth covers when ever converting or cutting it.

Forge world models are all made out of resin.
The LotR special edition 'Helms Deep' Keep with curved walls and the special edition 'Walls of Gondor' were both made out of resin.
Resin is as safe as can be once it is in solid form.
The danger from resin comes 'only' during the manufacturing process when it is a liquid.
You might get high from inhaling the fumes during the setting process because it is quite pungent.

The reason you wash the resin models when you get them is not because the resin is toxic, it is simply because there is an agent used in the molds that allows for an easier release of the hardened final product.
That agent can inhibit paint from adhering to the surface of the resin so Forge World recommend washing all resin items in warm soapy water before undercoating to remove any residue.
There is little more frustrating than undercoating a model only to discover that the paint is not sticking fast.
That is why all companies who manufacture resin products recommend washing the model when you receive it.

If the product was anywhere near as toxic as Offroad is incorrectly claiming, nobody would be allowed to use it, let alone sell it to the public.
Forget about the scaremongering.
Resin is uncommon in miniature manufacture compared to metal or plastic.
Where resin rules the roost is in the area of terrain.
Much of the best terrain available to buy for tabletop warhgaming consists of resin.
Generally found in bridges, houses, buildings, rivers, movement trays, occasionally roads, ornamental pieces, resin is probably the most common product used among manufacturers of these items.
Forgeworld, Armorcast, Snapdragon, Ainsty, Terrain Warehouse, Black Cat, Epicast, Fantascene... the list of popular resin terrain manufacturers and sellers goes on and on.
These products are used by thousands and thousands of gamers through all historical periods, fantasy and sci-fi games every time they set up a board.
I'm yet to hear of a single gamer anywhere in the world who has keeled over from handling resin models.

When cutting or carving resin there is no danger unless you are using something that powders the resin into a consistency light enough to make it atmospheric.
This might be an issue if you were cutting 'decent sized blocks' of cured resin with an industrial machine.
It's 'extremely unlikely' in hand carving models the size we are using.

The only downside with resin I have experienced is that it can be brittle if you want to carve it so use caution and do not be heavy handed with it.
Also, if you drop a large piece of resin terrain from a good height it will break like a ceramic.
Smaller models like troops etc. have little weight in them so they behave more like metals and chip a bit off.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: offroadfury88 on February 27, 2008, 07:42:57 AM
If the product was anywhere near as toxic as Offroad is incorrectly claiming, nobody would be allowed to use it, let alone sell it to the public.

you caught me, I just wanted resin stock to fall :wink:

sorry I was wrong, I was just under the impression that it was poisonous and you couldnt inhale it.

 :blush:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on February 27, 2008, 07:08:38 PM
When I ordered my two chaos forge world dreadnaughts, they came with booklets on how you should not inhale the resin dust caused by fileing as it might cause cancer....

Alas I read it after hacking lots of bits off and probably inhaling it.     :?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on February 28, 2008, 12:39:35 AM
figure this is as good a place as any to post this...

im thinking of starting a beasts army, because i want one that plays differently to Empire, and is evil, but have a few questions.

1. do we know when a new book is coming out? will it be pointless to start an army when it will be completely obsolete in a couple of months time?

2. what is a typical beasts army build. (ie, a typical empire one would be 2-3 blocks with fighty and shooty detachments, 1-2 shooty units, some artilery, some knights and some fast cavalry.

3. how "good" are they? i am not a particularly great general. i am put off playing as TK, for example, because i have heard they need a fairly skilled general. i dont want/need to play as a particularly powerful army, but i think playing as an army considered underpowered would lead to me getting whupped quite a lot.

4. does it get boring painting pile upon pile of brown fur?


i had thought of more questions when i was in the shower, and now i come down to write them i have forgotten... will edit with more as i remember.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 28, 2008, 01:43:54 AM
Alright, another Beastman!

1. do we know when a new book is coming out? will it be pointless to start an army when it will be completely obsolete in a couple of months time?

Well the last one came out about 3 years after the Hordes Book which means we may have to wait until 2010 or 2011 before the book arrives.  If they maintain something similar to the last edition.  This could make for some problems if they make alot of changes.  That said, there are alot of safe purchases you could make and still have over 2 years to use the army prior to any changes.  I would suggest picking up a couple boxes of beastherds and a chariot or two.  From there you could buy a unit of minotuar (3 or 4 models), and a giant.  Keep purchasing along this route and you will most likely remain within future stylings of the book.

Quote
2. what is a typical beasts army build. (ie, a typical empire one would be 2-3 blocks with fighty and shooty detachments, 1-2 shooty units, some artilery, some knights and some fast cavalry.

Well the fact that the two chaos books makes a typical army virtually impossible to make.  Most people mix in the demons and mortals.  But I play a pretty much straight Beast army made up of: 4 to 6 beast herds, with a rule of at least one chariot per non-ambushing beastherd (like my 1 cannon per 1000 points Empire rule), at least 2 Mintaur units, a unit of centigor, and a giant (sometimes 2).  About 135 models.

Quote
3. how "good" are they? i am not a particularly great general. i am put off playing as TK, for example, because i have heard they need a fairly skilled general. i dont want/need to play as a particularly powerful army, but i think playing as an army considered underpowered would lead to me getting whupped quite a lot.

They aren't necessarily underpowered, and in the right hands can be very effective.  Unfortunately the issues with them are that to use their best ability, ambushing, you need a Beastlord or Great Shaman with a maximum LD of 8.  Thats pretty bad.  Add to that really crappy Wargors (so bad that you will only use one as a BSB then use the REALLY good Shaman).  Shaman are brutal, S3, T4, 2 attacks, and access to the Braystaves (can be a GW or ad +2 to the AS) and  can take Chaos Armor.  The fact that for a few more dollars, you could get demons or mortals to improve your chances.

Power builds can be used.  To be a jerk I used 14 chariots once.  It was awesome, but broken.  I proxied my goblin and orc chariots since I only have 8 Beast ones, but they are so good as core they are scary.  Add to that the Beastherd which is right there with Dryads or Wardancers as the best skirmishers in the game with their great rules.  What happens next... I am not sure but I know Beastherds will continue in some manner or another.

Quote
4. does it get boring painting pile upon pile of brown fur?

Nope, not when you get creative and start adding warpaint.

Here is my Lord on foot:

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Beastlord1.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Beastlord2.jpg)

My BSB and Great Shaman

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Beastmen.jpg)

And here is one of my 7 units with one of my Giants who also gets a little war paint!

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Horde2.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Horde1.jpg)

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 28, 2008, 02:05:30 AM
Another beasty to the fold  :biggriin:

Philly seems to know this army way better than me, I am still building and so can field very few points worth.

Personally, I went for a all beasts army, I don't want mortal/demons cluttering up the field. Somehow that seems impure to me. My army is all about the fur and the fury!

So far I have painted up about 800-1000pts worth of beasts (all with the same basic scheme) and have actually strangely found them to be one of my favourite armies to paint thus far. I'm not sure I can qualify why, but I am enjoying every minute of it.

The few games that I have played with them have been very promissing, I can confirm the quality of the beastherds (though have not used them in an ambushing way) and the minotaurs have been devastating (hence my wanting more hence my starting of this post).

Let us know what route you go down.  :::cheers:::

Oh and Philly, it's great to see some of your little furry dudes  :wink:

I like your fur colour scheme and the warpaint thing... interesting we both went for the pure red eyes and similar base style.  :icon_idea:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: offroadfury88 on February 28, 2008, 03:40:34 AM
I remember when you posted your army Philly, I really like it.

the warpaint is what makes it in my opinion. Do you highlight the warpaint?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 28, 2008, 11:29:52 AM
Yes they get about 4 layers of each color, 5 for the heroes normally.  My camara and I don't get along well, it seems to nuke any subtle variations on the models war pair .  Part of that may be that the highest layer is rather bright, another may be that white and blood red are just powerful colors.

Finding ways to make the models look a little different really makes painting all of those minis alot easier.  Then again, after your 150th puffy shirt the Empire can get a little old too.  At least with Beastmen there is a huge amount of variation between the unit types.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on February 28, 2008, 01:33:41 PM
great replies guys.
philly, your army looks amazing. i know mine will never look that good.

are wargors the beastmen equivalent of captains then?

i wont be using demons or mortals, i want a pure beasts list.
going magic heavy appeals to me as it is something i have not done with the Empire. though maybe a shaman lord, 2 shaman heroes and a wargors BSB might be a bit too magic heavy!

giants appeal to me too.
how did you make yours look "beasty"?

and i dont really like the look of chariots. plus with 3-4 to an army, it would look very monotonous... ideas?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 28, 2008, 09:22:20 PM
If you want to go beasty, you need to keep in mind that chariots are the heart of the beast army.  It is an important part of the culture.  They and herds define the rambling horde of Beasts.  Also, 5 of them are a paltry 425 points.  They are your cavalry, shock troops, mainline, skirmishers, almost everything you could ask of them they will do.  They won't panic each other, won't panic units if they flee through them, and they reroll psychology.

10 of them are only 850 points.  500 points for characters and you still have 600 or 850 points left for the herds (which would get you between 4 and 7 depending on what you wanted).

So thats 4 ambushers, 10 chariots, and 4 characters.  A nasty army that would put the fear of Chaos into anyone since 10 would give you enough to charge every unit in an army, including the shooters, skirmishers, artillary and support.  Brutal and savage.  Everything Chaos should be. 

Plus the many chariots give opportunities to convert, inserting all the character models, 5th edition Ungor skirmishers and bestigor, anything you want really!

The giant was made beasty by using the horned chaos head, the hooves, and half a stick of greenstuff to gift him with two extra arms.  I then painted a few tribal designs on canvas (something I often do to test how a warpaint will look) to get a feel for what I wanted out of him.  I settled on a raw unfinished paint job with a great stripe of white running across his face and onto his chest, along his arms and such.  I then put a few beastman shields on him, and slapped a 4th or 5th edition edition Ungor Skirmisher on him with a neer edition shield on his base.  The Ungors name is Chettoh and the giant is his.

I am planing another one with two heads and an unborn fetal brother hanging out of the side of his gut.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on February 28, 2008, 10:37:06 PM
10 chariots seems excessive! When I said 3-4 would be monotonous, i meant the models themselves, not that i am fielding multiple chariots.

I want some minos, and definitely a giant, along with chariots, beast herds and characters.

I'm excited about beastmen now! Need to get home so I can start
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 28, 2008, 10:48:26 PM
I wouldn't suggest using 10, I don't use more than 6 normally.  I'm just saying it is possible :D

Painting chariots can get old, but the chariot body is a quick paint, while the bits from the beast herds boxes coupled with models from those boxes or metal ones from previous editions can make for much better and varied crewmen.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 28, 2008, 11:19:23 PM
Cool on the pure beasts front!!  :biggriin:

I've only got 2 chariots so far... one of them converted out of that old orc chariot that came with the last edition.

So Philly, I notice you've not mentioned warhounds... do you not field them?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 29, 2008, 02:12:24 AM
Heh... funny you should mention that.  I have a moral disagreement with spending $35 for 40 points worth of models.  I mean, 40 points? 

I would certainly use them if I had them, I meant hey are really cheap, but they just cost too much $$. I would rather buy another regiment box.

Anyone else find it objectionable to drop that kind of money for so little?  The models are awesome though.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 29, 2008, 03:06:47 AM
Ah ha... it is like we are of one mind


 :icon_twisted:~~~~~~~~ :icon_twisted:


I too have a moral disagreement with such things which is why I do not yet have any either.

But!

I am going to be sneaky (well maybe not all that sneaky but in my mind anyways) and buy the new 10 for $22 direwolves, maybe two boxes worth... that's more the kind of maths I like (well it's a step in the right direction). If at some point in the future they do the same with chaos hounds I will step right up and order some and just have a gazillion of them but for now the dire wolves painted up in my colour scheme will see me through nicely (I'll post some pics once I've ordered them and painted if you like... it may be a month or two but eh).
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: agent_templar on February 29, 2008, 03:22:39 AM
I have a moral disagreement with spending $35 for 40 points worth of models.  I mean, 40 points? 

I would certainly use them if I had them, I meant hey are really cheap, but they just cost too much $$. I would rather buy another regiment box.

Anyone else find it objectionable to drop that kind of money for so little?  The models are awesome though.
Preach on brother!    :mrgreen:

We're of like mind Philly.  I play a horde style Skaven army which is heavy on the slaves and clanrats.  Like you, I am reluctant to pay $35 for 40-something points.  Luckily I have tons of old lead and some plastics that are perfect for throwaway slave units.  In fact, the older models are smaller and more crude than the nice new plastics which makes them look more convincing as slaves when everything's painted up.

On a somewhat related note, I would like to see more Skaven horde armies but I concede that the high cost is prohibitive- it's easier, cheaper, and more effective to buy a bunch of shooty clan Skyre stuff and call it a day.  I wont even get into  assembly, painting, and storage!  So please be gentle on my furry brethren who have yet to embrace the greatness that is the Skaven Horde.  Guys like me have had literally years to build a massive horde and I'm still not even close to finished. 
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Cannonofdoom on February 29, 2008, 03:28:03 AM
All of my Beasts, which started as a detachment to my Undecided Mortal Army, a single herd, a Wargor, and 3 Minotaurs.

Then I got a Doombull, and had to build a Mino Army. I slapped some wings on a minotaur to add a second character to my Mino Army, as an exalted demon.

The Minotaur banner reads: "Eat Mor Humins", a la Chic-fil-a.

(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r316/cannonofdoom/Beasties.jpg~original)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: agent_templar on February 29, 2008, 04:03:49 AM
Awesome army and Reagan quote, Cannon.  Minotaurs are one of my fave models although admittedly I don't know how well they perform en masse- I've never seen anyone field a minotaur themed army like that!  +10 cool points.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Qrab on February 29, 2008, 04:59:39 AM
Minotaur armies are one of the better builds with the Beast book. A pure Minotaur of Blood army is brutal. Deploying it in waves means that Frenzy is not the liability people think it is.

Warhounds are $40 for 60 points of models (10 models in the box = 2 units). I've got a similar objection to paying that much, but I still have 20 of them painted and 7 more in a box. I didn't buy any of them though, I just made some good trades.

Two units are all you really need. Their best use is to hold table quarters: 30 points to claim 100 point quarters. Bargain! Unless most of your army is ItP, using them to fight turns them into panic bombs waiting to blow up in your face. I've dropped down to using one unit in my army and haven't felt like I needed more.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on February 29, 2008, 11:22:16 AM
Yeh, for their points value the warhounds seem like they could be a real pain in the butt for opponents or at the very least something worrying to have to try to deal with which may deflect from more scary units...

That's a great looking army cannon... especially the exalted minotaur of flying destruction  :biggriin:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on February 29, 2008, 12:44:11 PM
its annoying that GW does not have a beasts battalion or army box.

over in the uk its Ł30 for 10 warhounds. that is more or less $60!!

cool army, minos are sweet.

i presume great weapons are better than 2 hand weapons?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on February 29, 2008, 01:01:50 PM
I run a frenzy style Mintoaur army like Qrab mentioned.  Brutal, since you don't have too many worries about magic (7+ DD) and 3 or 4 units of 4 mintoaur backed by chariots and a few herds (plus a giant or two).

Great Weapons are a must really.  One more S4 isn't really worth it.  For a frenzied model its about 4 S6 or 5 S4, you do the math ;D

Maybe they will fix the Doombull this edition too.  Not being able to take anything but weapons kind of sucks.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Cannonofdoom on February 29, 2008, 03:17:00 PM
Yeah, it's pretty fluffy though. I don't see where that ever interfered with them before, however.

If he could take Magic Armor and Ward saves I'd probably kit him with a GW, instead of the Hellfire Sword.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on February 29, 2008, 06:04:44 PM
I bought a load of goblin wolf riders to steal the wolves for my chaos hounds.  Its a lot cheaper than the alternative metal official models.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Warlord on March 01, 2008, 10:42:50 AM
I bought a load of goblin wolf riders to steal the wolves for my chaos hounds.  Its a lot cheaper than the alternative metal official models.

I did that for Dire Wolves too.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Bede on March 01, 2008, 11:27:09 AM
I bought a load of goblin wolf riders to steal the wolves for my chaos hounds.  Its a lot cheaper than the alternative metal official models.

I did that for Dire Wolves too.

For Dire Wolves I used the lovely plastic Warg models from the LotR range.
They are a very good model and suit the Dire role nicely.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 01, 2008, 11:52:32 AM
While that certainly is an option, if I was that jacked up to use them I would probably just buy a couple of the boxes and deal with it.  I don't really use them right now, prefering the herds which are the same price (on average between the ungor and gor).

Still, if I had the models I would probably find room for them in an army.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 01, 2008, 12:23:14 PM
An opponant of mine uses a large unit of 30 warhounds led by a mounted chaos hero as a huge rank bonus machine.  The hero usually has something like the bezerker sword and it is mighty deadly as a unit.  Like being hit by a bus.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 01, 2008, 01:20:19 PM
I wish you could have centigor heroes and maybe even lords... then we could (maybe justifiably) take units of warhounds led by a centigor hero... I like the idea of that, that they would lead the pack into battle...

I like the idea anyways. I remember my old chaos dwarf army and the fact you could have bull centaur heroes and that they were scaaaary!

I've thought down the wolf/warg lines before but I think the dire wolves are just that bit better looking now and pretty cheap for the number you get so they are going to be a definate purchase, beasts seem like such a fast army anyways, to whack a unit or two of them on the flanks could really put the scare into people...
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 01, 2008, 04:50:49 PM
Crimson, though we talked about this last summer and I was so-so, I am now a huge fan of the centigor.  The fact that they can move through the woods without penalty and their 14" charge range is brutal for their very low cost (around 19 points each).  They can really support a unit and are much less than 4 minotaur.  I have yet to suffer for their Stupidty since they are often in combat 2 or 3 turns out of the game.

Siberius:  I am betting that there will be centigor heroes in the next beastman book.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 01, 2008, 06:01:17 PM
Any more to that suggestion than just a feeling? I mean, I'd love it if it were true (I guess I like to have more choice when it comes to characters).
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on March 01, 2008, 06:06:59 PM
By Sigmar, how can people possibly find so much to say about about a creature that has been been around since Knossos?  Burn them all and let Morr sort them out*  ::heretic::

Except for Siberius who is to be turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, a fate far worse then the Inquisition. :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 01, 2008, 06:47:46 PM
Nope, though if they enforce an army split you can bet they will offer more hero options to make up for it.  Plus there has been a progression.  We got Centigor heroes in the Mordheim book.  It would make sense.

Rufas: Minotaur are classic.  C-L-A-S-S-I-C.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on March 01, 2008, 07:34:19 PM
As I said, they have been around since Knossos.  You would think that you could of covered the topic in the last 2500 years.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 01, 2008, 07:57:10 PM
Ack!  I am wounded!  Heartily!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 03, 2008, 02:21:08 AM
2500 years is not long enough to discuss the glory that is minotaurs  :icon_biggrin:

And indeed all things furry and vicious  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 06, 2008, 09:48:26 PM
I'm burning inside with a passion for beastmen.

The first day that I get home I'm going to head into my store, and by a beastheard boxed set.

is there anything cool I can peruse to keep my enthusiasm up?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 06, 2008, 10:58:55 PM
I just picked up a beast herd for $22  :biggriin:

The horde grows!
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 07, 2008, 01:34:08 AM
notts here is the main Beastman Forum.  I am not that big of a fan though (I don't even post though I will look at it now and then).

http://s2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?

Next times I play with the Beasts I will write a little battle report, though I don't know how the mods will feel.  I can sneak it onto here and maybe connect it with the tactica I am working on for Empire players who want to get some info on Beastmen. 

http://s2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?

Siberius: Nice grab buddy!  I love my beasts.  I have a unit I am putting together now, but I am making a few changes to them...

I am tempted to grab 5 chariots for my birthday in May, its only $100 through the online guy I use.

Mmmmm.... chariots.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 07, 2008, 03:28:52 AM
Hey Philly, you've played with BoC way more than I have and I'm curious how you like to equip/command your beast herds. Seeing as I am about to get this new box, I'm wondering what I am going to do about how I make them up.  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 07, 2008, 09:56:10 AM
Additional hand weapons is the only viable option for the gors.  Shields do not offer much.

For ungor, I personally give them nothing.  I think this is a bit more open to personal choice though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 07, 2008, 11:12:55 AM
Thanks Crimson, that's how I got mine set up  :lol: though it must be admitted mainly because my housemate threw away my sprues before I put shields on the ungors  :cry:

Still, all's well that ends well  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 07, 2008, 11:23:20 AM
What Crimson said.  The only thing to keep in mind is that there is a chance they will once again make us pay for the upgrades in the next edition.  If things remain the same price, it will be 1 point for the shield, 2 points for Add. HW.  Also, for the sake of interest, I give 1/3rd of my Gor shields for the asthetic appearance.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 07, 2008, 11:54:28 AM
cool, a battle report would be nice.

what is the usual gor/ungor ratio in a herd?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 07, 2008, 12:46:13 PM
General consensus is as many ungor as possible, then 8 - 10 gor.  I normally run 9 Gor and 8 ungor, for 17 total models.  That means you need to lose 5 in a turn for a panic while keeping the herd to about 130 points.  I would play more ungor but the box only coms with 8 then 12 gor :D

Since boosting my ungor numbers I now go 10 ungor and 8 gor. 

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 07, 2008, 12:56:13 PM
great, so the box comes with more of one type than you will typically need.... perfect.

I'm looking at a beasts army on ebay, which has 1 beastlord, 2 shamans, 5 Bestigor,3 minotaurs, 30 gors, 9 ungors and two chariots as well as the army book.

I'm hoping I will be able to get it pretty cheap. (hence my thread in the brush and palette on removing paint)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 07, 2008, 01:46:03 PM
If I had $250 I would go for the 25 anniversary box of Minotaur.... oh yeah.

You will want about 4 regiments, 4 chariots, and 6 - 8 minotaur, plus a giant to start.  Then you can start adding what you enjoy.

Don't bother with bestigor currently...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 07, 2008, 01:53:46 PM
yeh, im not going to go with bestigor, but that is what comes with the ebay deal.

I know it isnt a full army, but it is a decent start, gives me plenty to paint, and also lets me have small games with them vs my empire models to train my girlfriend.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 07, 2008, 05:09:56 PM
i totted up the model total, if bought from GW (and ignoring the bestigor and the hordes army book) and it was Ł124

considering I have to strip the models, and they are second hand, do you think I should be able to get them for roughly Ł60, including P&P?

And for your beast giant, philly, did you just buy the plain warhammer giant boxed set?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 07, 2008, 05:22:44 PM
I normally use all my ungor which gives me 16, and about 6-10 gor in the unit.  I use herds as part of my mortal army, so its composition is such to absorb maximum deaths for my warriors :)

The biggest thing to consider is what role they are to play.  A bigger unit is hard to hide, and more difficult to maneuver.  A smaller herd lacks punch.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 07, 2008, 05:36:13 PM
Think I might head out to the great expanse which is Ebay and pick me up some old metal ungors  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: offroadfury88 on March 07, 2008, 08:18:24 PM
As I said, they have been around since Knossos.  You would think that you could of covered the topic in the last 2500 years.

So has Midiski, but people still talk about him.  :wink:

Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 07, 2008, 09:47:55 PM
i totted up the model total, if bought from GW (and ignoring the bestigor and the hordes army book) and it was Ł124

considering I have to strip the models, and they are second hand, do you think I should be able to get them for roughly Ł60, including P&P?

If you can get it for that price you will be very lucky.  But if you can, then most certainly get it.  Anything below 33% savings is a must buy.

Quote
And for your beast giant, philly, did you just buy the plain warhammer giant boxed set?

Yeah, and then a bunch of green stuff.  The giant kit has a ton of stuff and is great.  I will be using alot more extras for my next giant.

Crimson: The general consensus at the Herdstone seems to be no more than 8 Gor (though in a pinch I will go up to 10) and then as many ungor as you can field.  I sometimes use units of 10 herds for ambush duties on light armies (for missle and warmachine hunting) with nothing but Foerenders and musicians.

Offroad:  Nice Midaski rip.   :::cheers:::

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Qrab on March 08, 2008, 12:49:43 AM
For Herds I go with 5/5 with musician & foe-render. Of course they're just bodyguards for the shaman and/or diverters.

Though if I switched to a pure beast army I don't think I'd increase the size.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 08, 2008, 01:35:08 AM
17 or 18 give you the static CR needed to win combats when coupled with Minotaur and/or chariot charges.  Generally you swing them around to a units side, then charge combined with the bigger hitters.  If they are there to die I run them like you are saying Qrab.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 08, 2008, 04:17:24 AM
I just got a spawn (of sorts) and some ogres for my birthday...

With my soon to be received beast herd and soon to be ordered chaos hounds I am up to a (what i reckon is reasonably decent) 1500pt army now.

 :biggriin:  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 08, 2008, 04:18:11 AM
Sorry, didn't have much to do with the conversation but I'm pretty excited  :blush:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Midaski on March 08, 2008, 11:16:13 AM
.............. I am up to a (what i reckon is reasonably decent) 1500pt army now.

 :biggriin:  :icon_lol:

Pfft - I've got more than that and I've never even put them on the table ...............  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 08, 2008, 01:31:44 PM
Well hey if they're going spare I can send you my address  :wink:

 :icon_razz:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 08, 2008, 01:44:55 PM
Tell you what, here's what I worked out last night in all my excitement. Now, it may not be a tactically lean and pointswise supreme force... but it's what I have right now. Whilst I like to try and get the best army list I can, I also like to play with what I like so there may be hte odd unadvisable choice that i just like the idea of. Any suggestions or abuse will be most welcome though  :icon_wink:


Heroes
111 - Wargor: H.A, SH (crown of horns, scimitar of skultar)

114 - Battle Standard: H.A (vitriolic totem)

145 - Bray Shaman L2: (staff of darkoth, chaos armour)


Core
151 - Beast Herd ~ 12 G ~ 8 UG ~ inc command

151 - Beast Herd ~ 12 G ~ 8 UG ~ inc command

(both units with 2HW and Spears)

85 - Tusgkor Chariot

85 - Tuskgor Chariot

30 - 5 Warhounds

30 - 5 Warhounds

Special
188 - 4 Ogres: L.A, G.W, SH

196 - 4 Minotaurs: G.W, L.A

153 - 6 Centigors inc stan & mus: L.A, SP, SH, T.A

Rare
60 - Spawn of Chaos

1499 points.




Now, I feel like that is fairly balanced but hopefully relatively scary to play. I do have some options though like I have another 2 minotaurs and another 2 ogres... plus I haven't made the 2nd beastherd or ogres yet so my equiping of them could change. I am really tempted to give the herd hand weapon and shield for variation but can't make up my mind, plus I am using the ogre bull set to make my ogres so I could make a command... just can't decide whether to do that or go for 6 straight ogres... choices choices! Oh and I have another 4 centigors too. So that is another option.

I do love beasts... when I get it painted up more maybe I'll put up a piccy or two, there's just not enough  ::heretic::worthy pics doing the rounds on here  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 08, 2008, 03:15:55 PM
All 40mm base monster units where possible want great weapons and to be used in units of 4.  The only exception to this is dragon ogres, who at a pinch vs things like elves can afford to go with additional hand weapons :)

As discussed earlier, 12 gor is not ideal.  You are paying a lot more points than for ungor.  Why on earth the boxes come with 12 gor and not 12 ungor is beyond me.  I guess this is model limitations rather than personal choice?

As for command choices on ogres.  If you have 6 models build 3 normal and then 3 command group chaps.  That way you can field them 4 strong with all the options availible as a champion model should be armed like a normal ogre and so be able to be used as a normal one. 
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 08, 2008, 04:38:10 PM
Crimson, you speak sense. I like that in a beast.  :wink:

Good idea about the command in the ogres, that was kinda where I was thinking, I had wondered about making them all normal so I could do 2 units of 3 or one of 6 but then I realised with all the other special choices at my command, I'd never field 2 units of ogres.

As for ungors, I agree, it's crazy. I'm gonna look for some of the old metal ungors on ebay so that I can swing the balance back round to them I think. I'm just having to go this way for the moment... course the gor models are so much meaner looking too so it's not all bad  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 08, 2008, 04:47:09 PM
this is an annoying example of GW discontinuing the bitz service.
If they still had the bitz, you could just order some Ungor from them, instead of resorting to Ebay, and thus taking money away from GW.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 08, 2008, 06:45:27 PM
Too right. And I would too. Until they just cancelled it recently, I had only ever got minis from ebay twice. I loved searching through the GW bits and finding old minis and parts you had forgotten about and ordering them. I guess those days have gone.  :-(
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 08, 2008, 06:48:32 PM
even sweeter for me, cos I live in nottingham.

I could just go to Warhammer World, and get the bitz in like, 30 minutes.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 08, 2008, 06:51:06 PM
I envy you like a snotling.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 08, 2008, 07:05:40 PM
except not anymore, because stupidly no more bitz.

curses.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 08, 2008, 07:36:26 PM
Yeh, but snotlings are stupid, so I shall continue to envy you  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 08, 2008, 11:32:59 PM
Since you are limited to 12 gor and 8 ungor, drop 3 gor and reduce them to 17 models.  You don't need more than that.  Its enough for most anything.

I would drop the spawn, a unit of hounds, and the unit of ogres.  I would take a giant and another chariot :D

Other than that its a good list.  When you get more chariots I would take as many as you have.  I use at least 2 per 1000, normally one for every unit of gor I field so normally 6 units and 6 chariots.

Phil



Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 09, 2008, 03:41:58 AM
Fear not my furry friend.

I intend in the fullness of time to amass some more chariots and ride over the Empire weaklings.  :evil:

I must admit that some of my choices are based on what models I like... like my spawn... when I get it finished I'll post a piccy... it just really fits in with my fluff.

I'll consider dropping some gors though for sure, maybe I can make a little room for a new chariot  :-D
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 09, 2008, 02:18:48 PM
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/ChaosOgreWiP.jpg)

See, I must use my ogres now, I've used Green Stuff and everything!  :icon_razz:

Besides... whilst they are not maybe quite so sensible value as minotaurs they are not that far behind right? I mean they do what they need to... have loads of hard hitting attacks and causing fear... or am I missing something vital?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 09, 2008, 03:20:12 PM
they look sweet.
that GS fur is what I want to put on my giants.

how did you do it?
and was it easy?
my GS skills are atrocious.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 09, 2008, 03:27:05 PM
Mine aren't up to much either but I did a little research online and everyone seemed to be saying to use either a sculpting tool (which sounds like a lot of money for a fancy knife to me  :icon_razz:) or a pin or knife blade. I kinda squished my fur into the places I wanted it (I mainly aimed for places where I needed to fill the holes due to my arm positions so that was conveniant) and then (starting from the bottom cos that's what someone somewhere had suggested) started to put little nicks into it.

Now some people suggested keeping the pin wet and some said that dry was better. I did a bit of both, the wet seemed to do moire slick looking fur but the dry kinda pulled it out some into little more 3d shapes so a combination of the two seemed ideal to me. It really didn't take all that long and I ma hoping that once I have painted it up it won't look too dodgy. I'm gonna do it in the next couple of days so I guess maybe people can judge then, hehe.

The nice thing about fur of course is that you can do it pretty randomly. I'd love to sculpt more from GS but right now, if this goes well I'll be pretty pleased with where I am at.

I too am hoping to do a furry giant whenever I can afford to get one, if you go ahead and do it whack some piccys up cos I'd love to see what you use  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 09, 2008, 03:31:00 PM
That Ogre is nice. When I saw the 1st pic I thought he was scratching his back with his sword!
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 09, 2008, 03:35:58 PM
crap, i hate ebay.

i was all sweaty and nervous, leading bidder at Ł45 high bid for Ł124 worth of models. refreshing the page every few seconds as the last minute ticked down.
I was leading with 5 seconds to go, then someone out bid me at 47 pounds with 1 second to go.

needless to say I couldnt put in a new bid quick enough.

maybe I shoulda just wacked in the highest i was willing to pay, with like 20 seconds left (i put my bid in at 45 pounds with 1 minute and a half left, was willing to go up to 60, and probably a bit higher)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 09, 2008, 03:39:04 PM
Yeh, I never know which way to go with that, I had a friend who would count down to the last second and place his bid... it seemed to work ok for him but then I don't know if it's not just as effective to put in the max you are willing to pay and live a calmer life just watching to see if you got it. Last thing I bought was a buy it now, that was not so stressful  :wink:. It's like gambling ain't it. Something so simple as shopping just shouldn't make you sweat so much! Still the one redeeming feature of ebay is that most likely another bargain will swing by in the not too distant future...

And Ben... can you blame him with all that green goopy fur growing off him  :icon_razz:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 09, 2008, 03:43:35 PM
yeh, i got greedy looking for as good a bargain as possible, when in reality anything up to about Ł70 was still a sweet bargain for a really solid  start to a beastman force, only needing a few more herds, chariots and a giant to play games.

That and I put my bid in too early (my girlfriend told me last night not to wait until right the last second, as I had said I was going to wait till inside 10 seconds)

I think in the future I will determine my highest, then put it on in the last 10 seconds.


I'm bummed because I was so excited about starting my new force :(
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 09, 2008, 08:22:32 PM
What you want to do is download an "ebay sniper" tool that places a bid at the last possible second.  I know all my work collegues use one and it works well.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 09, 2008, 09:36:30 PM
You can get good deals by simpley making the highest bid you are interested in paying on the last few hours.  Just keep watching things and eventually you will start getting good deals.  Just takes a while, but if you keep the auctions in the air, it will work out.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 11, 2008, 02:47:34 AM
He's on his way! (though I dunno about the colour scheme on the skin, I'm trying to vary it slightly from the beastmen and minos but I don't want to be extremely different... I'll have to keep on and see how it turns out but I'm happy with the way the fur turned out, really makes him fit in more with the rest of the army)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/DSC05176.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 11, 2008, 11:25:38 AM
God I love Gor!

And I like the skin tone on the ogre, very nice with great shading.  Ink?

I normally do a beastial brown, then a bronze flesh, then a bronze flesh/elf flesh, then a final elf flesh nightlight or another lighter bronze/elf before the straight elf.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 11, 2008, 12:05:13 PM
My gors are painted black, with a very watered down scorched brown, then some muscle highlights in scorched/bestial mix, until the final layer is just bestial.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 12, 2008, 10:27:36 PM
I like yours too crimson.  Ll except those pink loin clothes.  YOu would think they would have.... soiled them by now. :D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Wyzer1 on March 12, 2008, 10:38:03 PM
I finally got around to looking through this thread

Nice models all around!

@Phillyt - Very nice army  :biggriin: Not much more to add, awesome paint job, I love the multi-arm giant, and the basing looks nice too

@Crimsonsphinx - As Phillyt said, I like the models too. The creepy thing is they are slaaneshy minotaurs....  :unsure:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 12, 2008, 10:48:55 PM
Just had some ebay achievements.
9 gors and 18 ungors for Ł6.10, plus Ł2 for P&P.
i also have an auction for a chariot and 10 warhounds which I am currently watching.

I also orderered the army book, a chariot and a shaman from a site with 30% discount.

The herd is starting to be assembled!
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 12, 2008, 10:51:36 PM
Nice snags, keep it coming and welcome to the club!   :::cheers:::

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 12, 2008, 11:06:15 PM
yeh, fairly pleased. I was willing to go up to Ł8 for either beastherd, so got it for half that, including P and P.

I am going home on Saturday so can do some painting, and I might post my first peasantlike attempts on here, should have a few painted by sunday evening.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 12, 2008, 11:10:04 PM
I don't know there is something disturbingly erotic about minotaurs :)  You know with the horns and all.

My beastmen worship slaanesh.  They all own several pink loin cloths and go into battle in freshly washed ones.  If your going to die, you might as well do it looking your best!
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 12, 2008, 11:20:55 PM
do you mean phallic?

or actually erotic...
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 12, 2008, 11:30:26 PM
Take your pick.  Im open to suggestions Notts :)

Im slaanesh through and through, the whole point is that it is disturbing and immoral and that you should embrace it.

They are kind of the basics.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 12, 2008, 11:33:52 PM
I'm all into erotic and disturbing, if its a witch elf (or my girlfriend  :ph34r: )

On the other hand, I dont really fancy death from anal trauma following an encounter with an "erotic" minotaur.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 12, 2008, 11:52:30 PM
LOL Notts,

Thats half the fun of slaanesh.  Down and dirty like animals, or in some cases with animals.

Personally I would find a witch elf somewhat more disturbing.  They follow Khaine which is like khorne.  Not particually sensual those khorne worshippers.

You have been quoted!  Well kind of.  Liberally interpretted might be better.   :-D
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 12, 2008, 11:57:42 PM
hey!

you took out the "dont"

thats the most important word of my sentence!!
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 13, 2008, 12:17:23 AM
do you mean phallic?

or actually erotic...

Both.

At once.

From 3 different webcams.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 13, 2008, 02:33:40 AM
ack ack and thrice ack!

I could not get on this morning, it was... painful. But I can now, woo!

Anyways...  this thread has gone worryingly chaotic eh?

I like the way you've painted your furry manbeasts (so to speak) Philly. It's almost... more humanish... but in a disturbing way.

How can we see Crimson's? Are they up somewhere? Where? I want to see his raging bulls!

My gors and whatnot are crimson gore drybrushed with oranges.

My ogre fellow is crimson gore drybrushed with a red I use for my hochland army (mixed blood red and dark flesh) then highlighted with the blazing orange again and I think one of the light browns to get that slightly diffo look.

Looking at him though, I am not pleased with his staticness, it doesn't fit with the rest of the dynamic beasts units (bar of course stand still and look ugly minos) so I am gonna attempt my most ambitious converting to date to get the rest of the unit looking a bit more...

 :ph34r:

Wish me and my green stuff luck...

(oh and good ebaying notts  :biggriin:, my recent attempts have been somewhat less fruitful  :unsure:)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 13, 2008, 09:30:02 AM
My minotaurs are on page 3.  You know thats disturbing enough saying that!

I had a picture of my gors up on philly's chaos thread in the painting area, but I guess I can repost it on this thread.  You will have to excuse the poor photography skills.

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/beastmen.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 13, 2008, 10:17:10 AM
That's right, I remember your minos now  :-D

That paint scheme on the gors is tasty  :evil:

And minotaurs on page 3... now I have a reason to buy the Sun... :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 13, 2008, 11:19:42 AM
Just had a look on GW online store page, it appears you can buy blister packs of ungors with spears.

So you can bulk them up, and it works out cheaper than buying lots of beast herds.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 13, 2008, 11:25:08 AM
They are significantly smaller than the plastics though.  But in the grand scheme of things thats still okay.

On the otherhand, you can use extra gor for bestigor with some conversion work.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 13, 2008, 12:02:33 PM
Ive got 30 bestigor, not even undercoated.  Ive had them one and a half years.  :)  Not much incentive to convert plastic gors :)

I have more than enough gor with 24 considering I don't play as beasts.  Hopefully I can still use my beastmen in my hordes list once it has been revised.  I like my 4th edition style list.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 13, 2008, 06:38:00 PM
gah, the person hasnt got back to me with P and P details. I want to pay for them know so I have them on monday. I guess i wont though, and will have to pop into town to pick up a beastherd.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 14, 2008, 12:49:09 AM
You most likely won't get your models by Monday.  It takes about a week or so to get them with payment, shipping exchange, mailing, etc.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 14, 2008, 02:12:36 AM
Talking of which, mine came in today.  :biggriin:

I'm feeling a little furry stiring inside  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Warlord on March 14, 2008, 06:09:45 AM
I'm feeling a little furry stiring inside  :evil:

Thats what Douchie is going to be feeling if he doesn't get back on the forum and finish his story!
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 14, 2008, 10:22:13 AM
Lucky guy!  :x
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 14, 2008, 10:38:07 AM
You most likely won't get your models by Monday.  It takes about a week or so to get them with payment, shipping exchange, mailing, etc.

Phil

yeh, I just had hopes that they would, If I had paid straight away... never mind.

I went to bed at 5 last night, (second last night of term at uni, went out. ended up throwing an american football around in the parking lot of a grocery store at 3.30 am), but managed to wake up now and win a chariot for Ł7.50.

I probably should stop buying things now, as I dont like to give myself too many models to paint up at any one time.

right, back to bed.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 14, 2008, 10:57:32 AM
Ebay is an addictive game...  you are always there, hunting for those deals. :D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 14, 2008, 06:42:22 PM
I have a question about beasts...

if you are playing as the empire, and you face a super fighty character, you can cannon him or VHS him.
if you face dragons or other monstrous mounts, you cannon them.

what is the beast equivalent of our cannons? By that I mean what would you use to kill Dragons or other big nasties, or big nasty characters.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 14, 2008, 07:08:58 PM
Sounds like the only chance you have of not buying more models, Notts, is to just sleep as much as possible...
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 14, 2008, 07:22:55 PM
what is the beast equivalent of our cannons? By that I mean what would you use to kill Dragons or other big nasties, or big nasty characters.

Welcome to chaos.  There is no equivalent.  You best bet is to outfight them.  We have many fine items that make this possible.  The other option is to outmagic them. 

My normal loadout on a Beastlord is : Slaughterers Blade, Gaze of the Gods, Armor of Damnation, and the Mark of Khorne.  Basically its 5 S7 attacks, you force the enemy to reroll hits on you, your get a 4+ ward against everything, and then when you wound, you get a wound back on a 4+.  I kill dragons all the time with this set up since you can challenege and in a herd you always move to the side that is charged.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 14, 2008, 08:52:31 PM
Are you going for an undivided army in the end?
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 14, 2008, 09:01:08 PM
Was that to me, or notts, Siberius?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 14, 2008, 09:01:16 PM
im gonna stop now.
when all the stuff i have ordered arrives, plus the beast herd im gonna get on sunday, i will have 3 beast herds, 2 chariots and a shaman.

phil, that sounds slaughtertastic.

and if siberius' last question is directed at me, yes i'm going to go for undivided.
I kind of want to emphasise the animalistic/predatory nature of beasts, as opposed to actually being evil.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 14, 2008, 09:26:44 PM
Sorry, yeh I should have been more specific.

I know you, Philly, have all sorts of chaos leanings to both the left and right...   :wink:

But I was curious as to Nott's direction. That sounds very much like my style, Notts, i'm going to try to be strict and keep it very beasty.

Though Furys may be hard to resist, especially as they are furry too!  :blush: They'd kinda fit though what with being pretty undivided themselves. I'm gonna hold off as long as I can though... there are still plenty of beastys I can get before that time comes...
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 14, 2008, 11:00:17 PM
You can adopt a chaos god without it actually meaning something.  Khorne can just represent martial beastmen, it does not mean you have to have it painted red and brass.

I say pick the theme that you want, and build the army around that.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 14, 2008, 11:08:04 PM
I have slaanesh for my army, but not the deviant kind.  Mine follow the "power over the people" approach, like the politicians of the Empire sometimes follow.

The beasts don't follow the chaos gods in the same manner as humans.  It is more of a personal connection, like it is their parent.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 14, 2008, 11:20:21 PM
theme, or building a Kick Ass beastlord designed to kill dragons.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 15, 2008, 04:40:35 AM
Well I shall maintain my non-god choosing status for I shall be a true beast of the forest and I shall roam through the undergrowth with only one thought.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 16, 2008, 04:37:00 AM
Well I got my box of beast herd and I'm trying to be a lil more creative this time... might even try and make some of the gor bodies look like ungors but here's the first two I made. That one on the right is definately supposed to be in full on ambush mode  :-P

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/DSC05232.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 16, 2008, 03:59:23 PM
ah, nice work.

I just got back from town, and have picked up a beastherd (so annoyed the army book I ordered online hasn't arrived)

I'm going to assemble one Gor with 2 hand weapons, and 1 Ungor with a spear (is that the typical load out?) and try and paint them up as test models.

might post some pics tomorrow (although be warned, I am not a very good painter)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 16, 2008, 06:43:01 PM
Nice ungor Siberius!  Is thta a WE stone he's jumping off?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 16, 2008, 06:56:25 PM
Notts, I look forward eagerly to seeing them...

Philly, indeed it is, of course he just defecated behind it before using it as a springboard  :evil: 8-)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 16, 2008, 07:02:27 PM
Nothing wrong with claiming WE territory and the stones that are held within!

Bwa ha ha ha!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 16, 2008, 07:08:14 PM
just tried to take some photos of them assembled and primed, before I paint them.

All I got was some black silouhettes.

hopefully the pics will come out better once I have painted them....
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 16, 2008, 10:11:35 PM
My wife collects (well, is starting to collect) wood elves so I look forward to a long and bitter rivalry between us... I'm sure there will be lots of sprue sharing too as they do intermingle...  :evil:

I'm thinking of doing something involving bits of elves for my champion  :laugh:

Hurry up and paint 'em notts :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 16, 2008, 10:16:02 PM
my first ungor is done I think.

he looks very generic, and kinda incomplete, but I can't think what else to do!

I'm going to go take some pics now.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 16, 2008, 11:01:38 PM
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/praguekitchen159.jpg)

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/praguekitchen158.jpg)

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/praguekitchen157.jpg)

sorry for poor picture quality (i had a piece of paper behind it, but all those pictures just turned out just blacked out, and for the MASSIVE pictures. I'm rubbish at computers, cropping them would take me ages.

for the skin, primed black, 1st coat scorched brown, second coat 1/2 scorched and 1/2 calthan brown, third coat as second, but slightly more calthan, and a dash of mechrite red, then final, a very light highlight of mechrite red.

the fur is calthan brown, then vermin fur.

the loin cloth is a dark foundation grey, then dheneb stone, then bleached bone.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 17, 2008, 12:58:36 AM
I like it  :icon_biggrin:

It's very bestial. And seeing as you are kinda thinking along the same lines (it seems) as me in terms of being more about the beast than any affiliation to any gods, it works well. I look forward to seeing all the more painted up  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 17, 2008, 01:02:17 AM
I think he is too brown, looks quite boring.

Not really sure how to remedy that though!
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 17, 2008, 01:09:03 AM
Boys, it is always about the beast and not the god.  The power of chaos is what makes the Beasts, but they can still have a totemic focus.  After all, the majority of the Beast army will always be chaos undivided and not affiliated with a god.  By their nature they are the beast.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 17, 2008, 01:24:52 AM
I think he is too brown, looks quite boring.

Not really sure how to remedy that though!


I don't mind the model, in a full unit they'll look nice. As an individual peice you may be right notts (not that I can speak as my paintings crap).

Maybe make the fur lighter? or more of a reddy brown to create more contrast with the flesh. Of course lighting probably has something to do with it as well.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 17, 2008, 01:33:16 AM
My only issue with it is the fact that the color scheme is too complicated.  You need something you can use on 120+ models and get it the same everytime.  Try scorched brown to calthan brown or something lighter like beastial brown.

Select a contrasting color for the furry parts.  I went with broze flesh to lighten the models up, then added the warpaint to break up the brown horde.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 17, 2008, 01:42:23 AM
Boys, it is always about the beast and not the god.  The power of chaos is what makes the Beasts, but they can still have a totemic focus.  After all, the majority of the Beast army will always be chaos undivided and not affiliated with a god.  By their nature they are the beast.

Phil
I feel like a naughty school boy, just chastised by the headmaster!!


anyway, I'm actually pretty pleased with it besides the colour scheme, it was quite quick and easy to do, and is a reasonable TT standard, which is all I'm aiming for. Thanks for all the comments.

What I was going for was a pretty dark skin tone, contrasted with the fur, but in the end that was too brown (hard to get it dark, because it looked rubbish without highlights) so I added some red. I do see what you mean about it being too complex Phil, but it was my first model, so was just kinda trying things out to see how they looked.

I might try scorched to Calthan, on the skin, and then go vermin fur -> snakebite leather on the fur to lighten it up (although not sure how the vermin and snakebite will go together)

then again, maybe Calthan and snakebite is not contrasting enough. I dont think dark skin and light fur will work out...

Also, I might steal the warpaint idea  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 17, 2008, 10:54:28 AM
I guess what I was pointing to was the introduction of a third color unrelated to the browns.  It can be hard to get consistant across the army, which isn't that big a deal, but can be a pain.  When I am building layers I tend to stay within the same color, not introducing another color type (like the red).  That said, I am only an average painter so  I try to stick to what has worked for me in the past!

You could try some warpaint.  I don't put any on the ungor since the gor have established that only they are allowed to daub themselves and any ungor attempting to do so is eaten.  But it does break the army up, adds a little color, and isn't artificial (as in they aren't wearing orange loinclothes just to fit in or something).

My normal skin tone I do using Game Colour Paints: Black Primer -> Scorched Brown -> Beastial brown -> Beastial Brown with Bronze Flesh added -> same with a hair more broze Flesh.  I then dry brush broze flesh on the hairy bits, bubonic brown on the leather and necklace ties, followed by brown ink, then bestial brown for all horn and hooves, and bones before doing bleached bone, then a mix of bleached bone and white for the highlights.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Wyzer1 on March 17, 2008, 02:31:35 PM
.... wait a minute....

You guys just hit 10 pages talking about Chaos stuff....

This isn't a subtle attempt at organizing an anti-Inquisition is it?

 :Ohmy:



@Notts, nice looking gor (or is it an ungor?)

Needs based of course, but the model itself looks nice
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Finlay on March 17, 2008, 02:39:13 PM
well, there is actually a decent amount of beasts knowledge here in WE, and seeing as i am a new fledgling beast, this is a great place to discuss things.

cheers, it's an ungor.
I tend to do all my basing at the end, when I have painted the entire unit.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Siberius on March 17, 2008, 04:36:44 PM
Wyzer, how could you think such a thing?  :?

This is purely to help those in the Empire who need to better understand the beastly mind in order to be better able to crush it!

Honest.  :engel:




 :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 17, 2008, 05:12:35 PM
Well we haven't started pretending to corrupt others for oddball posts so I supose we have not yet degenerated into inquisition level stuff yet :D

Besides, isn't the inquisition dead?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 17, 2008, 08:07:28 PM
I don't think the beastmen should all be the same colour.  Its chaos, they should be different!

In my beastmen, the fur on the legs and arms is painted in lots of shades of brown, although the skin colour is remaining the same.  That introduces slight variation into them, for realism while keeping them still unified to look like a unit.

Its a bit like varying hair and beard colour on normal soldiers :)
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: phillyt on March 17, 2008, 09:52:22 PM
I started out like that but changed to a unified approach once I decided to emphasis the beastial part and play down the humanity.  They have similar hair and fur colors because they are all from the same region, in the same way that all deer look the same, or all moose.  They all have similar colored fur.  Mine follow a more bestial path rather than a humans with varied hair color.  Nothing wrong with doing it the other way but I just liked the warpaint being the distinguishing characteristic of the models.  I still have 12 gor and 8 ungor from the second box I painted with red and black hair.  At some point I need to repaint them.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 19, 2008, 01:18:00 AM
3 more ungor painted today.
went scorched brown -> calthan -> khemri, with just vermin fur over the black primer for the fur.

i'm pleased with the skin, but not satisfied with the fur, tomorrow I am going to try grey out on one of the 4 Ungor which I will paint (which are constructed, primed, and have the coat of scorched brown applied... ready for me to do tomorrow!)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 19, 2008, 01:18:57 AM
I notice there are no pictures!  :x

 :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 19, 2008, 01:23:27 AM
I didn't want to just turn this into a "notts is making a beastmen army" blog...

I was going to put up a picture of all 8 when they are done.

I STILL dont have the army book... my paypal is really slow to clear, the estimate for it clearing is the 25th, 13 days after I made the payment.

I might cancel my order and pick up the rule book on thursday when I am heading into Nottingham.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 19, 2008, 02:32:34 AM
Don't feel bad for posting the pics.  Think of this as the beast players home away from home until the mods kill it :D

And the paypal not clearing for all that time sounds strange.  I would kill the order if possible.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 19, 2008, 11:03:04 AM
Yeh, it's ok Notts, it's our little corner of chaos!

I certainly am gonna keep putting up pics of the new stuff I am doing as really, I had been on a bit of a break from Beastmen to get my Empire fired up but am now yearning for the furry little guys once more, except I am trying to be a little more adventurous this time. I spent last night making a conversion on an ungor which for the 5 or so points of model it is I am really wondering whether it is worth all the time  :-P but maybe he will reward me with much survivability and death dealing.  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 19, 2008, 12:46:55 PM
Phil: I will be very upset if the mods do kill it. This thread is really useful!

I would be more worried, if my paypal didn't do this with EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION. I have no idea why it does though.


Siberius: haha, maybe the gaming gods will reward your endeavour and truly make him an ungor to be feared.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 19, 2008, 12:52:52 PM
Don't be too hard on the mods, they really do a great job.  It could be argued that the Beasts are certainly not on topic for Empire, though the Count's Tavern is for things like this.  So long as we stay on topic and don't let things run too far off the subject we should be fine... I think.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 19, 2008, 03:38:43 PM
ok, I just picked up the rule book, and beyond the dizzy feeling from the special rules and magic item combos and so on, one thing struck me.

why, oh why, did the designers not put the hordes of chaos magic items which beasts characters can use in the beasts book?

I know most people use a mixed chaos force, but I absolutely refuse to buy a whole other army book, just to get a few more magic item rules.


a few questions,
I see that no one uses the hand weapon and shiled combo for Gors. I know the 6 + save against shooting is more or less useless, but the 5+ for combat starts to become a bit more useful?
Can I give chaos armor to all my characters? if so, is this recommended?
Is the staff of Darkoth basically an obligatory item? do you use it for ambushing bray shamen's?
is the horn of the great hunt an obligatory item?

I'd be interested to see philly's and crimson's army lists, if possible...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 19, 2008, 05:37:34 PM
I know what you mean Notts, thankfully my brother had a very short attempt at collecting chaos so he got the hordes book. As it turned out his wife is building a chaos army now but I at least have access to the other items... some of which are pretty cool looking.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 19, 2008, 09:00:41 PM
why, oh why, did the designers not put the hordes of chaos magic items which beasts characters can use in the beasts book?

I know most people use a mixed chaos force, but I absolutely refuse to buy a whole other army book, just to get a few more magic item rules.

It was worth it prior to this, since there are alot of things in the chaos hordes book that was worth using.  Now that the new hordes book is only 9 months away I wouldn't bother.

Quote
a few questions,
I see that no one uses the hand weapon and shiled combo for Gors. I know the 6 + save against shooting is more or less useless, but the 5+ for combat starts to become a bit more useful?

It actually is useful, but when AHW are the same price and better in the long run, there is little reason to use the shields.  Againts most T4 enemies that the AHW wouldn't work well against you are often also facing S4 or higher.  That makes the shields nearly useless.  I still equipe about 30-40% of my Gor with shields just in case we need to pay in 7th and also because they look cool when mixed together.

Quote
Can I give chaos armor to all my characters? if so, is this recommended?

No, that Chaos Armor is the only one allowed in the army.  The Hordes book has alot better armors, the Crimson Armor, the Armor of Damnation, and the Armor of Tortured Souls.  While these three are listed as Chaos Armor, they still cannot be worn by shaman, one the one generic one.

Quote
Is the staff of Darkoth basically an obligatory item? do you use it for ambushing bray shamen's?

I don't ambush shaman, since they don't give you a DD if they are off the table.  The staff is pretty much a must in any army with a magic presence.

Quote
is the horn of the great hunt an obligatory item?

Not anymore.  At first I used it all the time.  But the price is not worth the slot it takes since you need those points for other magic items.  The difference between LD7 and LD8 for only 2 - 4 ambushers isn't really worth it for the minor % increase in success.

Here is my normal ambush list:

Characters:
Beastlord - mark of khorne, slaughterers blade, gaze of the gods, Armor of damnation - 235points
Wargor - BSB, Heavy Armor, War banner

Core:

4 Chariots - 85 pts.

4 Herds of 17 models - 10 Ungor, 8 gor, full command. 131pts. each

2 units of 4 Minotaur with GW and the mark of khorne 225pts. each

6 centigor - Full command - shields

2 Giants - NO MUTATIONS

2251pts.

I have about 10 lists I run regularly.  If you want to see some more I can PM you unless others want to see them as well.

Phil

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Castozor on March 19, 2008, 09:14:49 PM
Well I would love to see your armylists Philly. After all, I almost wanted Beastmen to be my first army but they didn't attracted me as much as the Empire fluff-wise.

Gr.

Lucas
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 19, 2008, 09:42:08 PM
Maybe I will have a look at the hordes book next time I am in town...

is the choice of lores down to personal preference, or is there a "standard" set up of lores?

and yeh, more or less any help with army lists would be nice :)

I'll probabvly knock up a list in the next few days, and I expect you to critique it  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 19, 2008, 09:58:15 PM
Maybe I will have a look at the hordes book next time I am in town...

is the choice of lores down to personal preference, or is there a "standard" set up of lores?

I think undivided get shadow, beast, and death.  Marked shaman get whatever their gods list is.

I will run off some more lists later tonight.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 19, 2008, 10:10:58 PM
yeh, they do.
but is it consensus to have, say, one beast and one death shaman?

is it fine for me to have, say, a general with a mark of khorne leading an undivided army?
or a shaman with a different mark, in a unit of undivided?
I can't find any rules for this.

Just knocked up this VERY herd orientated list, which is bound to be full of mistakes:

Beast Lord, heavy armour, slaughterers blade, and pelt of the dark young, 166
wargor, BSB, heavy armour, war banner, 114
Shaman, extra level, Staff of Darkoth, Power Stone, 160
Shaman, extra level, Bray staff, Dispel Scroll, Chaos Armour, 151

3 chariots, 255
3 beast herds, 8 Gor, 10 Ungor, Full Command 393
3 (ambushing) beast herds, Full Command 6 Gor, 8 Ungor, 327

4 Minotaurs, Great Weapons, Full Command, 224

Giant, 205

1995
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 20, 2008, 09:56:56 PM
Notts, just take shadow lore.  Ignore the others, they all suck.  Well that is not strictly true, death is pretty good, but you can't use the bray staff if you go feral with beasts magic!

I might be able to post a picture of my shagoth and/or giant tommorrow on here.  That is if my camera decides to actually focus properly.

Armour of Damnation is the *best* armour in the entire game in my humble opinion.  In fact it may just be challenging VHS for the best overall item in the game.

I normally give my giant the mutation upgrade.  A 5+ save is well worth it when small arms fire is bombarding him.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 20, 2008, 10:33:46 PM
Movement spells are the most important in the game, and the fear causing one is pretty handy too.

but spell 3 is completely useless, and spell 1 seems fairly rubbish too.
Isn't going feral good enough on its own? at least for the round the shaman's unit charges.

pics would be nice!

yeh, it does seem pretty good. Suppose it's easy to find 15 points too, just knock out a few Gors.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 20, 2008, 10:37:42 PM
The base shadow spell is very good on someone with the Book of Secrets, as that will be a fighting hero.  You can ambush enemy warmachines and wizards with a flying chaos hero.

I normally take a shadow shaman lord, and then a level two slaanesh wizard or two.  With you going undivided I would take death magic.  If you have no objections to using mortals, you can take a mortal sorceror and get fire magic to get a bit of variety.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 20, 2008, 10:53:46 PM
yeh, I'm pretty tempted to take a great shaman, and 2 level 2's. I've never gone magic heavy before, so it is appealing.

I do have some objections with including mortals, but I guess I could write some pretty sweet fluff for a mortal wizard going feral, and joining forces with a group of beastmen.
I quite fancy some tzeentch leanings, because I think he is by far the coolest chaos god..
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 20, 2008, 11:49:07 PM
You could model a beastman from a chaos warrior body or something like that for a sorceror.  That way you can include one without breaking away from your beast roots.

Tzeench are very expensive and not particually good currently.  In the new book, apparantly the lore becomes much better though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 21, 2008, 12:04:06 AM
My only issue with the mutations is that they too often force the giant to crowd dive into a unit, wasting his next turn.  Better to save 25 points and just take a vanilla giant IMO.


If you want some real magic, take Slaanesh!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 21, 2008, 03:15:20 AM
Notts... are you being tempted away by the Gods already?!  :-P

In fairness I can understand wanting to go for something a lil different than the 8 lores... but still!

I spent quite the long time this evening modelling up my new ungors... I don't know why, I mean they are the cheapest thing in my army... but I guess it just appealed to me to see what I could do. Oh and my 2nd ogre who I messed with more after feeling the first one was a bit static for my raging horde!

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/DSC05261.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/DSC05260.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/DSC05258.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/DSC05255.jpg)

I know the fur looks a little scary this time... I don't know why it didn't turn out so good tonight... maybe sometimes it comes and sometimes it goes...  :blush:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 21, 2008, 10:08:36 AM
As promised, some pictures of my beastmen models.
These two are even in focus for a change!


(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/largemonsters005.jpg)

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/largemonsters001.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 21, 2008, 10:42:49 AM
Wow, nice paintjob. Especially on that Shaggoth. And those colours... theh mess with my head  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 21, 2008, 10:47:49 AM
My Shaggoth was kind of based on Mr T   :-D

The colours are their to show their loyalty to Slaanesh, although I guess you probably realised that  :-)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 21, 2008, 11:23:36 AM
yeh, the Tzzentch lore does kind of... well... suck.

I have vague fluff ideas of a baby being born, with slight mutations and some "odd" powers, that is left in the forest to die, but some beastmen find it, and the shaman recognises it's chaos-y aura, and they raise it, and it becomes feral and allies with them.

If I gave a human sorcerer a mark, he can't join any units can he?

Siberius, what can I say, the taint of chaos is powerful...
nice Ungor btw, and I still think the ogre's fur looks good.


Crimson, "I pity the fool"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 21, 2008, 11:34:08 AM
I'm not sure about the strange patches of fur on the ogres.  Maybe a little more fur than just at the joints, because then when someone sees it they will not be saying "Hey there is only fur at the gaps, kind of lazy." :D

Tzeentch lore sucks now, but the new list looks nasty as hell.

Crimson - Still don't know about the pink...  also, did you prime them white?  I have alot more luck with chaos in black primer.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 21, 2008, 12:06:49 PM
There is no pink on them.  Its liche purple and ice blue.
The pink is only used to highlight the shaggoths purple mane.

From memory, the giant was undercoated white, and the shaggoth was undercoated black, due to it being its actual skin colour.  I repainted the brighter areas like the upper torso and the blue cloth bits white before painting them properly.

The giants eyes and tongue are rather brighter on the picture than they appear on the model.

Humans are unable to join beastman units.  I beleive their is no rule to prevent them joining a monster unit tthough.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 21, 2008, 12:24:17 PM
Well, pinkish then :D

I tend to ink metals rather than painting them solid colors.

Also, I find white primer hard to work with.  There are a few spots on the giant where it is very apparent that there is a white undercoat in that the color looks thin and the shading is revered (as in the darker regions are on top rather than in the depths).

And humans cannot join beastherds, but thats probably okay since you can just hide behind them anyway.  Besides why wouldn't you just use brayshamans?  They are almost as good as the wargor!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 21, 2008, 12:33:53 PM
just to get access to different lores. But I could just give a bray shaman a different mark, and model him with my "feral abandoned human fluff" in mind. (can a brayshaman with a mark join an undivided beast herd? I guess not)

Philly, why do you even use a BSB, and if you are ambushing, do you send any characters in the ambush.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 21, 2008, 12:42:37 PM
Yeah, some areas of flesh on the giant are darker on the raised areas.  My problem is I have so many unpainted models, it is rare for me to revisit one that is essentially painted to tidy up such things.

I am very happy with how the shaggoth came out though, its a very nice model and I wanted to do it at least some justice with my mediocre painting skills.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 21, 2008, 01:51:33 PM
just to get access to different lores. But I could just give a bray shaman a different mark, and model him with my "feral abandoned human fluff" in mind. (can a brayshaman with a mark join an undivided beast herd? I guess not)

Herds have no mark so any marked beast can enter the unit.

Quote
Philly, why do you even use a BSB, and if you are ambushing, do you send any characters in the ambush.

The rerolls are too good, and the +2CR he adds with the warbanner is awesome.  THe Hordes book has some really nice banners he can take too.

Crimson:  I like the Shaggoth, it has a nice finished look, especially the skin tone.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 21, 2008, 02:08:55 PM
Brayshamans kick ass!

Like some kungfu monk, mine leaps into melee and actually challenges enemy champions!  With the bray staff and two attacks, its a good strategy to keep him alive, as it prevents attacks thrown against him.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 21, 2008, 03:22:33 PM
do you put your BSB in the middle of your pack of herds then?

haha, ninja shaman.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 21, 2008, 04:01:08 PM
It's the way you painted the skin I like best about them Crimson.  8-)

The shading seems so perfect to me. I need to work on painting skin.

And yes Philly, I do need to get some more fur in there or people are gonna start calling my bluff  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 21, 2008, 06:06:00 PM
The shaggoth was painted with wet blended skin colour.  It takes ages to do, as you need to work on tiny areas of skin at a time, trying to highlight and shade each part.  You can't really paint it in one coat.  I used a collection of about 4 or 5 browns for this, with beastial and graveyard forming the basic colour and scorched and bleached bone used to blend in for muscle definition.

I really like doing wet blended skin, although because it limits my painting speed to about 1 model per day, I tend to only use it on models I actually like doing.

The giant was mostly done in two coats.  Because I was lazy I did a darker base coat of dwarf flesh, then a lighter 50/50 dwarf/elf flesh mix which was applied to the higher levels.  Unfortunatly I did not take into account it being more watered down, and so some raised areas, such as on the giants hands are actually darker than the recesses.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 22, 2008, 01:21:00 AM
I still haven't really figured out taking photos....
but at least i finally managed to resize and crop the,

the first two haver scorched brown-> calthan brown -> khemir brown skin, and Vermin fur fur

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/IMAG0003-1.jpg)

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/IMAG0001.jpg)

These ones I did scorched brown-> Dark Flesh -> Khemri brown skin (mainly because I bought dark flesh, and if I didn't use it here, then I didnt need to buy it!) do you think there is a discernible difference?
they have adeptus battle grey -> astronomican grey fur, and I like this quite a bit more than the vermin fur ones.

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/IMAG0004-1.jpg)

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/IMAG0005.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 22, 2008, 10:11:01 AM
Looking good notts!

The brown has a very natural look to it, which I guess is the aim for a beastman horde :)  Well natural as man beast crossbreeds can look.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 22, 2008, 11:08:10 AM
Yes, very nice.  Looks like a quick paint too, you'll have them finished in no time!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 22, 2008, 12:46:48 PM
It is pretty quick, but I am also enjoying them.
Being able to dry brush most of a model means that even with my crappy skills I can make it to a decent table top standard.

do people prefer grey fur, or vermin brown fur?
I think I prefer grey more, it gives it a more striking contrast.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on March 22, 2008, 01:00:27 PM
Yes, the gray looks better. That way they are not entirely brown -looks better from a distance where different browns become indiscernible
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 22, 2008, 01:04:41 PM
Notts, that is some beautiful colouring there. I am envious.  :x

They are just so... beasty!

Makes me want to go back and do something similar. *sigh*...

But yeh, the grey fur is good for contrast. I can't wait to see the army continue.  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 22, 2008, 01:33:03 PM
Mix and match fur.  Its unlikely they alll come from the same litter...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 22, 2008, 02:16:31 PM
thanks for the comments guys. I plan to paint my first 4 Gor tonight.
How do you make your foerender look different to normal Gor?

My paypal is due to clear soon, so on the 25th a minotaur, a shaman and a chariot will be dispatched to me, and on the 27th, another chariot, and 3 beastherds. The next time I head into nottingham, I'm going to pick up some blisters of Ungor with spears too. (just missed on an ebay auction on 17 of the ll' buggers last night)

(I really should sell my high elves, because I just booked a weekend away with my GF in London, and all these models... it is expensive.)

crimson, that is true, but I think for the sake of army unity, I will keep them all the same.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 22, 2008, 03:39:17 PM
I have my foe-render standing on a pile of orc heads (I just had a load of spare lying around) and looking all heroic. That was all I came up with. Not sure what I am gonna do with my new one seeing as I am trying to jazz them up a bit.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 22, 2008, 03:49:47 PM
My foe render has that masked head, which I painted the leather in purple.

Also hes got a flail in each hand, no other beastman has!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 22, 2008, 04:15:29 PM
yeh, I gave mine the masked head too. Maybe I will just have each one with that, and no one else.

I am having some difficulty attaching the horns to the Gors heads, sometimes the hair on their head gets in the way of the hair on their horns.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 22, 2008, 04:53:26 PM
I have three foe renders, all with that masked head.  Not that I have enough models to field 3 units, but I got carried away when modelling.

I had problem with some of the horns too, I recomend just trimming them down till they fit, then greenstuffing any gaps.  You know, standard sticky plaster fixing!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 22, 2008, 09:14:45 PM
I don't remember having problems with getting my horns tangled in my hair...

but then it was quite the while ago when I did my gors. I have a vague feeling that if there was fitting problems I kept trying different horns till I found some that matched ok.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 22, 2008, 11:41:36 PM
I cover all foerenders with warpaint.  With 6+ foerenders using the helmet head they get repetitive.  They are one of my least favorite heads.

Some of the horns are not made to fit with some of the heads.  They won't match up.  If you try a few times, you will find the ones that go with each.  Alternatively you could trim them like Crimson mentioned.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 23, 2008, 12:11:15 AM
I guess I need to be more patient with the horns and heads then, instead of just expecting them all to fit.

I might try the warpaint. although I can see it coming off pretty terribly...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 23, 2008, 12:16:16 AM
Don't do the paint unless it speaks to you.  It certainly doesn't work for everyone.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 23, 2008, 12:18:52 AM
no, I think it is an awesome idea, and it looks really great on your models.

I'm just worried I don't have the paintin skill necessary to pull it off.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 23, 2008, 12:45:51 AM
Well it isn't too hard, it depends how much you use.  You could start small and work your way up to the level of paint you want.  WHat colors were you looking for?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 23, 2008, 12:55:11 AM
Not sure.

Being a scot, some woad warriors appeal to me.

(http://www.indigopage.com/herbal/woadwarpaint01.jpg)

but not sure that would work contrasting with brown.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 23, 2008, 03:26:53 AM
That's a scary picture... and not cos of the war paint  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: offroadfury88 on March 23, 2008, 07:25:17 AM
there been three people who constantly post in this thread, then once in awhile somebody else will chime in. Its kinda funny actually.

Woad raiders are pretty sweet though, but I dont think blue will go well on the brown furs of the beasts. Perhaps you could make them white "lab" beasts with blue paint. That would look really creep if done right.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 23, 2008, 10:02:32 AM
That pictures just full of lecherous men and one woman....
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 23, 2008, 10:59:21 AM
I hadn't actually noticed the woman...

anyway, it certainly seems to have scared everyone in the correct manner.
but yeh, don't think it would work on brown.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 23, 2008, 12:03:57 PM
I hadn't noticed the woman either :D

They do have a 13 attack and only a 10 armor, but they are savage!  Better than the head throwers.

Anyway, if you made the blue paint a little brighter than what they are wearing then it should work well.  Their fur is a little dark as it stands, but that should effect it to much.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 23, 2008, 12:39:11 PM
I think it's because of her amazing acheivement of finding a bra so blue that it just fits right in... a true warrior.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Spider_wells on March 23, 2008, 03:28:06 PM
Quote
They do have a 13 attack and only a 10 armor, but they are savage!  Better than the head throwers.

Yeah, but everyone loves those head throwers!

Quote
I think it's because of her amazing acheivement of finding a bra so blue that it just fits right in... a true warrior.

Perhaps she just made sure the paint was pretty thick there?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 23, 2008, 03:33:09 PM
This bares closer inspection  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 23, 2008, 03:45:08 PM
siberius, i thought you were joking.

she clearly isn't wearing a bra.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 23, 2008, 03:54:17 PM
Really? So it isn't really good colour coordination at all?

Oh my, Braveheart never prepared me for this.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 23, 2008, 04:48:16 PM
I assumed she was wearing a bra...  didn't really look... still not interested in looking though...   :closed-eyes:

If you hunt around you can find more pictures of how others have done warpaint.  I made it a more important aspect of my models than most, since I based it on African Tribal paint (very simple themes, geometric and uncomplicated).  The woad paint is very cool too, and a great idea!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 23, 2008, 04:56:14 PM
I think  the fact that neither me or you realised it was a woman shows it isnt worth looking at anyway!

I will painting up by Gor tonight, so will try some swirly blue patterns, see if it works.
expect some more crappy pictures tonight!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 24, 2008, 10:11:49 AM
I assumed she was wearing a bra...  didn't really look... still not interested in looking though...   

Call yourself a slaanesh worshipper?  I noticed straight away, although I guess that probably says more about me than you...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 24, 2008, 11:10:11 AM
Heh, well I guess I should say she was a bit mannish, and not in that Qrab-style Slaanesh way either :D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 25, 2008, 01:58:45 AM
more pics!
first 3 Gor

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/beastgrouppic25th.jpg)

blurry close up of musician

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/beastmusician25th.jpg)

Foe render with war paint, top view

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/beastfoerender325th.jpg)

blurry side view, but you can see the war paint.

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/beastfoerender225th.jpg)


I think I need to put more warpaint on. I have gone in kind of half hearted, and it has come out looking like he has a pair of blue glasses on, and a nipple decoration.
(one question for future reference, do people prefer this size, 640x480, or would 320x240 be preferred? I find it hard seeing the smaller ones properly, but these ones take up lots of room.)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 25, 2008, 10:13:36 AM
I don't know about anyone else but I must admit for me, the bigger the better!  :lol: :oops:

I really like the colours you have going still. It works really well.

I must admit though the first thing I thought too on seeing the Foe Render was 'blue glasses' but like you say , maybe if you go all out on it, it'll adjust that. Certainly I like the idea! Course, you could always paint him on a blue bra too  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 25, 2008, 11:02:27 AM
notts, try the flower or macro zoom setting.

I really like the skin tone on those models!  Great drybrushing.

You could make the blue a hair thicker on the foerenders eyes, maybe just a stripe running across his face rather than a goggle effect, though I think it will look fine when the other models have it as well or if you put more on him.

Your warpaint loving
Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 25, 2008, 11:42:33 AM
Colours look very natural, which is nice.  Im not sure about the blue warpaint.  My friend has a skaven general who has a blue/white warpaint combo and it looks very bizare.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 25, 2008, 11:48:48 AM
it was on macro zoom, I just have a rubbish camera!

the Gor models certainly have the nipples for a bra...


I was going to go with a stripe, but decided to follow a more swirly idea, to go with the woad.
I am thinking of extending the facial warpaint to all over his nose, might remove the glasses affect then.


I am not going to add any other colours, just blue for it. If it doesn't look right after I have done it a bit more, I will paint over it.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Qrab on March 25, 2008, 12:53:23 PM
Adding a few highlights to the warpaint should solve the "blue glasses" effect and give it depth that it currently lacks. That's the trickiest thing about warpaint/tattoos on minis.

For the Foe-render, I suggest a highlight at the bridge of the nose, over each eye, above the nipples, and at the midway point on the biceps (where the flash has washed it out). Don't highlight the entire length of the paint stripes; a little goes a long way.

To really make it work add some shading to the paint where it is in shadow (under the eyes, below the breast, inside of arm).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 25, 2008, 01:11:15 PM
Are they painted by drybrushing?  Or highlighting?  They look drybrushed, but im a fairly bad judge of such things.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 25, 2008, 01:39:04 PM
OK Qrab, thanks for the suggestions.
I did them first with the foundation blue, then a highlight of enchanted blue.. do you suggest an even lighter highlight on top of that, ie ice blue? or just mix a little white/bleached bone into the enchanted blue to raise it a touch.



yeh, they are dry brushed. I like it because it is easy, but still looks good. when I do highlighting it comes of terribly.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 25, 2008, 03:41:33 PM
my first paypal buy has arrived, a chariot!
I will try and paint that up in the next few days, along with a few more Gor.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 25, 2008, 03:49:47 PM
Ice blue is too bright.  I used it origionally on my chaos, but I have phased it out on my later models because its just too bright even for slaanesh.  I do not suggest using it for undivided.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 25, 2008, 05:56:42 PM
Woad, when dry, can look quite bright.  I don't think it would be too much but Crimson seems to have more experience than me with blues.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 25, 2008, 09:47:41 PM
Notts, you are embarrasing me with your ploliferacy (or whatever the word should be...)

I best get painting and catch you up, I've been having too much fun putting things together.

Has there ever been a thread with so many mentions of the word nipple? Truly the taint of chaos is here.  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 25, 2008, 10:41:54 PM
Siberius, it is vacation time.
I am writing up my dissertation at the moment, but I am only doing 1000 words a day, which can take anywhere from 2-4 hours, depending on how slow I am going. That means the rest of the day is free for painting/TV/video games.

Next week my GF is coming to stay, and I am working 9-5, so I will probably get no more painting done. (although my GF has agreed to try and let me teach her how to play warhammer.. mwahaha)


That's because the Gor's nipples are so pronounced, and with drybrushing, they just get highlighted even more!
I guess it is cold in the Drakwald forest....
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 26, 2008, 12:43:32 AM
Like true soldiers of the Empire, those nipples certainly do stand proud!  :biggriin:

Ahh, I see on the painting front. I'm still highly impressed. You inspired me to start on my ungors and I have one half done now  :lol:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Qrab on March 26, 2008, 03:34:42 AM
OK Qrab, thanks for the suggestions.
I did them first with the foundation blue, then a highlight of enchanted blue.. do you suggest an even lighter highlight on top of that, ie ice blue? or just mix a little white/bleached bone into the enchanted blue to raise it a touch.

Yes, something lighter. I don't know Ice Blue, so go with the mixing (white and bleached bone each have their merits). Be sure to thin the mixture and be conservative with the highlights. A short, thin stripe (or even a couple) at the top edge of the warpaint will go a long way.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 26, 2008, 09:54:10 AM
I don't have a single ungor finished.  All mine are currently undercoat black, with the spears kind of painted and the loin cloths painted white.

I really should get around to finishing them all off at some point.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 26, 2008, 02:02:55 PM
Yes you should.
but unpainted armies are in vogue.

at my GW store last knight, I was mullered by an unpainted unit of Inner circle knights, and then watched an unpainted undead horde destroy some unpainted dwarves, and then some Dark elves.

I say me and the DE have moral victories for both having fully painted armies!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 27, 2008, 12:09:42 AM
Let's face it, people always oo and ah more at a fully painted army, it is a most magnificent thing.

In that sense, yes, a definate moral victory  :biggriin:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 27, 2008, 10:30:49 AM
Unfortunatly I tend to get about 80-90% complete on armies then give up on them.

My chaos is mostly painted, I have a handful of units, like my beastmen, bestigor, beastman chariot and centigor that are not painted, but the rest of the army is.

Its just I tend to move onto something else and not worry about things like finishing...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 27, 2008, 05:19:57 PM
fair enough then. I have enough points of Empire to field 2250, but I still have 20 greatswords I plan to kitbash and paint up, among many other things!

My second Beastmen order arrived today. One minotaur, one chariot and one shaman.

I am constructing the chariot now (added some scythes), and the tuskgor heads are mother lickers to stick on.

I will batch paint it with my other chariot, so I should have 2 chariots done by tomorrow night.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: offroadfury88 on March 27, 2008, 06:14:18 PM
I say me and the DE have moral victories for both having fully painted armies!

The only true victory is a moral victory.  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 29, 2008, 10:25:40 AM
A few more painted models from my chaos horde...

Beastman musician, Chaos Lord and Sorceress.

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/chaosmodels002.jpg)

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/chaosmodels003.jpg)

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/chaosmodels004.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 31, 2008, 12:49:32 AM
Is that a Dark Eldar or normal eldar helmet on that champion?  I like it regardless!  I am going to put one of the new Daemonette heads on mine.

To that end I think I need to tell everyone I have succumbed to the Daemons.  I am dropping $480 on them when they are released.  I figure on 60 Blood letters, 20 daemonettes (for a total of 77), 4 Juggernauts, and maybe 10 riders of slaanesh if they are still legal.  That would pretty much finish off my demons.  I would of course drop a few heralds and the lord from the sisters of battle (instead of the horrid herald slaanesh gets) in there.  I chose juggernauts instead of fiends because the model looks like total shit to me.  I love their abilities, but the Juggernauts are amazing!

So, coupled with the mortals I will enevitably buy in December, chaos will be a booming time this year!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 31, 2008, 07:48:37 AM
I feel the need to have a slaanesh daemon legion too Philly...Only slaanesh though, not going to dilute it with lesser gods minions.

As I already have two daemon princes, a Keeper, 12 daemonettes and 6 mtd daemonettes, I have a good core for this army.

The head is off the mounted slaanesh lord.  I love the head :)  My 40k chosen marines all have those heads too :)  Its all about having plumes!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 31, 2008, 10:28:00 AM
Woah Philly... you don't just do half measures do ya  :-P

 :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 31, 2008, 10:59:27 AM
I normally budget Ł200-300 for a new army.  WIth daemons I only really will need some fiends and boxes of daemonettes.  Should be enough for a large amount of daemonttes and fiends at Ł12 a box/blister.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 31, 2008, 12:51:51 PM
Fiends *bleh* (that was me throwing up in my own mouth)

I just don't like the model, though the unit is pretty nasty.

Siberius:  I sold my O&G stuff for $400 so with the 20% off from the guy I buy from, thats $480 worth of models.  The 60 Bloodletters is $150, the 20 daemonettes are $50, the 4 Crushers are $80.  Shit.... I think I need to buy another 4 bloodcrushers, then maybe 10 riders AND 10 hounds...

I will need to look at the book before I get too far ahead here...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 31, 2008, 01:38:43 PM
Same here Philly.  If fiends are good enough I might buy two units of 4.  If not just one unit.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 31, 2008, 09:16:36 PM
i like your mortal champion, real nice model.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 31, 2008, 09:22:47 PM
The head with the top knot looked stupid.  This way I have the same model on top of the steed as I do on foot.  I just love plumed helmets, I have tons of dire avengers in my eldar army simply for the helmets.

He was painted in the original chaos colours of my army, which was excessive amounts of liche purple, ice blue and tentacle pink.  I was going to repaint him to be less vulgar, but I figured as the champion/lord he can afford to be slightly more excessive than the rank and file.

Unfortunately, due to some disaster, my steed of slaanesh is in bits and bent beyond repair, so that model is unlikely to ever see battle again.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on April 02, 2008, 01:16:46 PM
my beasts have had their first (limited) taste of action.

using 1 small herd and 1 chariot, vs 20 swordsmen with a 10 man FC detachment, and 10 handgunners to train my girlfriend.

1st "battle" she shot down my chariot, and the swordsmen owned the herd with CR.

2nd "battle" the swordsmen owned my herd again, but the handgunners only managed 3 wounds on the chariot, it managed to charge them and killed 6 in total.
Then I managed to charge the swordsmen, and killed another 6, and ran them down while fleeing...
(one question, working out attacks, would it be chariot impact hits, then detachment counter charge, then bestigor, tuskgor and ungor, then swordsmen?)

Admittedly I was very lucky. rolled 6's both times for impact hits, but still very pleased with its killing potential.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 03, 2008, 03:05:26 AM
And that is just one chariot  :icon_twisted:

I've been on a bit of a painting frenzy the last few days so I'll post a pic or two of my latest beasts tomorrow hopefully.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 03, 2008, 11:08:27 AM
Well I have settled on my purchase I think.  I will be going Khorne/Slaanesh (the more I read the more it seems like one god armies will have some serious trouble).

20 Chaos Hounds
2 Beastman Chariots
4 Fiends of Slaanesh
4 Juggernaughts (maybe just 3)
50 Blood Letters
10 Deamonettes
10 Seekers (if my guy can get them from GW at a decent rate).  If I can't get these it will be 10 Fleshhounds.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on April 03, 2008, 11:43:52 AM
you can't resist the beast chariots, huh?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 03, 2008, 03:18:10 PM
Well, as promised, here's my latest creations. I decided to be a little more extravagant with my foe-render this time  :-P

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/Ungor.jpg)




(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/FoeRender.jpg)


So Philly... you have succumbed to chaos hounds now?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on April 03, 2008, 03:27:43 PM
LOVE LOVE LOVE that foe render!

how did you do it?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 03, 2008, 04:49:49 PM
Hehe

Well, I was gonna use an actual man but then I realised that I couldn't bring myself to use up a whole mini I could use in my Empire army to do it so I remembered that I had a few really old (4th or 5th edition I think) skellies lying around from one of my brother's 'new-army-but-got-bored-fast' moments.

So I just cut off all the limbs and glued them back on in a more 'I'm just hanging here' sorta way. I just got a pin-vice at last the other day and am all excited about using it so I actually pinned the body onto the bottom of his hand for stability but glued the skull on top because that already fitted nicely. I think it was as easy as that. The marauder arm I bought on ebay the other day and when I glued it onto him, that set the whole idea of the pose in my mind... you know sometimes how you put something a certain way and you can just see how you want the model to turn out and then it's just a case of actually making it happen?

All in all, pretty simple stuff (all plastic for a start, woo hoo!) but I'll admit he does look kinda mean  :icon_twisted: which probably means he'll be the first in line to drop from my brother's HLR. I hate that thing!  :icon_cry:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 03, 2008, 11:07:27 PM
Nice foe-render Siberius!

Siberius: Yeah I figured I could use some hounds.  10 for $24 is a decent price, so 20 for $48 works.  Plus, I was thinking about buying them and using them as flesh hounds since the flesh hound models totally suck (STILL - they just can't get these damn things right!!!).

notts: Yeah... more chariots is always a sound purchase!

I am now thinking of adding 20 horrors of tzentch too.  Having read most of the info for the Demon book, it looks like entering battle without a few of these and a tzentch hero is folly versus mid to high level magic armies.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 04, 2008, 02:46:26 AM
Hey if you can get them cheap then that's the way to go for sure. I'm using some semi-converted dire wolves for mine. The new ones... I think it'll work for me.... just couldn't bring myself to pay $40 for 10 of the proper ones, nice as they are.

I've always wondered why GW can't get those flesh hounds right. I mean... it should be easy.... surely... just make really really mean looking hounds... there is a few things that they just haven't got to grips with yet... a decent high elf range I still await  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 04, 2008, 06:58:26 AM
Very nice foe-render!  The other beastman looks very good too.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 05, 2008, 09:40:06 AM
Some more beastmen photographs.  I finally located my wargor model, and I have attempted some more pictures of my shaman.

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/april0508009.jpg)

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/april0508010.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 05, 2008, 12:33:38 PM
I've always loved that wargor model!

At some point I'd love to see some group pics of your army... it must be so striking with all of that vivid colour, much more so than most beast armies.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 05, 2008, 12:37:11 PM
Unfortunatly the grand total of painted beastmen I have is 8 or 9 gor, 4 minotaurs, a giant, a shaggoth and some very poorly painted dragon ogres.  Obviously, those two characters as well  :)

Also note, that place im taking photos is the only place in my house where I actually get decent light onto them.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 05, 2008, 12:44:56 PM
Sounds like you need more beastmen  :-P

How about some Slaangor eh? They could be funky... (if a little expensive)

So do you go down the mainly deamon and beasts route then? I haven't heard you talk about mortals a whole lot...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 05, 2008, 12:54:30 PM
I have 30 bestigor sat on my "waiting to be painted shelf" currently still metal not even undercoated.  These are due to be slaangor at some point in the future, but when that will be I do not know :)

Im actually a chaos mortals player.  Alas I painted them first, and the results are quite horrible to see.  I recently repainted my chosen unit, but my other warriors, marauders, marauder horse etc are all very poorly painted and so are not going to be posted on the internet!

My mortal chariot is here though.  I posted it a while back to show philly the true wonders of a slaanesh circus theme!
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/Fotos003.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 05, 2008, 04:47:37 PM
I can feel the warping powers of chaos messing with my brain just looking at it  8-)

Hey, if you end up giving up on those bestigors, I know someone who'd buy them off you.... *wink wink*  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 05, 2008, 04:58:58 PM
I never sell models.  I never know when I might decide that I will paint them afterall.  Besides they cost me Ł70 so I sure as hell am keeping them!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 05, 2008, 05:44:05 PM
Mwuhhaha.... yes that was why I said it really, they are so rediculously expensive, those bestigors... don't know when I will ever get round to buying some. Maybe I don't need any. I need to play some more games with my beasts before I really decide.

I don't sell models either... which is why I have a load of horrendously painted chaos dwarfs lying around in England... not to mention plenty of goblins and high elves from whichever edition boxed set it was... like you say, one just never knows... I mean heck... look at that skelly on my foe-render... that has probably been sitting doing nothing for 10 years! (scary)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 05, 2008, 05:55:52 PM
I have a big pile of 2nd edition plastic spacemarines that I have not even looked at for about 10 years.. All very badly painted, most in bits.  Still I will not sell them.

I have loads and loads of models hidden away in boxes all over.   :-D
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 05, 2008, 07:17:54 PM
I wouldn't bother buying bestigor.  The models are ancient, are very average, and not really worth playing with.  I would think they will put out a plastic box when the book gets redone.

As far as models, if I don't need them, then they get sold.  I only do it if I know I woun't be using them.  Why keep them?  When you have 20000+ points worth of little plastic men and add more to them everyday, why keep shit?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 05, 2008, 07:36:35 PM
I'll admit that a lot of the older models I have are not good too... ie. they are old editions and hence i just don't think the sculpting is nice... boxes of the old chaos warriors and beastmen (those horrible unipose ones from a few editions ago) but I still can't bring myself to get rid of them just yet...

And I might take your advice on bestigors... if they plastic them next time I'll give them a look but there are plenty of other ideas I have for my beasts army before they come in.  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 05, 2008, 09:12:56 PM
I quite like the metal bestigor.  Then again, I prefer working with metal models.  Plastics often lack detail and dont weigh as much :)

My biggest reason for not painting them is I have never had enough points to field them.  If a unit is not being used, its chances of being painted is slim to none in my armies  :-D
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 05, 2008, 09:49:24 PM
The current beastigor are simply too small to be impressive, plus they look like they came from 4th edition.  While I like metal, I actually prefer plastic nowadays for the easy of use, transport, and versitility.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 06, 2008, 08:51:09 AM
They are 5th edition models Philly.  The 4th edition ones were those mono pose plastic halberd beastmen.

I think they look really good up close.  If I actually get around to painting them, im sure they will look even better.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 06, 2008, 04:19:39 PM
The plastic halberd models aren't bestigor, they are gor.  I thought the bestigor came out prior to the Choas book in 5th, meaning they would have been 4th.  Regardless, I bought mine in 5th and have painted a few.  They were great models and would look passible, but they don't match the newer style of the 6th book.  The gor in the beastherd box are larger than them and look better. 

Wait for the plastics.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 06, 2008, 05:19:39 PM
Wait for plastics?  I already have 30 of them, do you really think I want to buy more?   :-D

I might take a photo of them resplentant in their metal colours :)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 06, 2008, 06:41:35 PM
Heh, then again Crimson it is looking more and more like you are either going to need to make a big investment in beasts, sell your models, or stow them with the rest of your memories!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: McKnight on April 06, 2008, 06:47:33 PM
Dude Crimson... I know you are chaos and all... but do you actually field a whole army in that colour theme?... if you do then please share some pics of it... jeeez you dont see that everyday...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 06, 2008, 06:57:57 PM
I am looking at having to buy enough models to field all three parts of my army seperate.  My mortals will be fine, I have lots of models.

Beasts I would just need some more herds.  I have plenty of special and rare choices.

Daemons I could do with a few more rank and file daemonettes and some heralds, which I am going to convert from the plastics!

I did used to have all my chaos army painted in similar theme.  I have 30+ badly painted foot marauders in that colour scheme and 15 marauder horsemen in even worse colours!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 06, 2008, 09:12:02 PM
It is a... vivid color scheme aye McKnight? :D

As for the beasts, unless you have at least 4 chariots you need more than just herds.  It will be interesting to see where they go with them but it is a ways off.

I am still sorting out my demons but the Keeper of secrets gifts and stats are really looking awesome!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 06, 2008, 10:53:58 PM
So what do you reckon GW will do in the next book?

Do you foresee any horrible changes or things being dropped?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on April 06, 2008, 11:25:11 PM
some more ebay purchases arrived over the weekend.

most are unpainted, but about 6 models are painted, nurgle-y.
it looks awesome, and now i want to do a nurgle army!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 07, 2008, 12:53:11 AM
Nothing has come over the line yet, though GW has said all of the current character and unit types will remain with new options.  The Doombull is going to be more viable and there is a good chance we will see centigor heros.

And has anyone seen this model?

http://www.coolminiornot.com/store/product.php?xProd=2504

I almost wanted to play Nurgle after seeing it, but then changed my mind since I would never field him without a Chaos Horse. :(

Here is the rest of this line, also check out their 50mm game for an awesome set of demon models!

http://www.coolminiornot.com/store/section.php?xSec=58&jssCart=2b6fa8a96523778c107d063754f26803

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 07, 2008, 01:01:28 AM
Notts... great work on the painting... I feared you would ally yourself with a God sooner or later... they don't call it the lure of the gods for nothing eh?  :-P

Philly, that sounds like the perfect changes to me, viable doombull and a centigor hero and I can be a happy man... if they bring out plastic bestigors too I may just faint clean out  :biggriin:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 07, 2008, 11:03:39 AM
My suspicion about the bestigor stems from the fact that they have stopped producing bestigor command groups (pestigor, khorne and normal) and the boxed sets.  All bestigor varieties have been arriving in discount bins as stores dith them. 

Also, the fact that they are dumping minotaur out through the 25th anniversary box makes me think that they are going to go plastic or at least get a re sculpt (which is awesome).

My only worry is that they will either move chariots to specials, or screw around with ambush.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on April 07, 2008, 11:48:14 AM
Notts... great work on the painting... I feared you would ally yourself with a God sooner or later... they don't call it the lure of the gods for nothing eh?  :-P

Philly, that sounds like the perfect changes to me, viable doombull and a centigor hero and I can be a happy man... if they bring out plastic bestigors too I may just faint clean out  :biggriin:
I haven't painted them nurgle, but I bought them and some are painted nurgle (a herd for 2 quid- figured I could strip them!).
lovely green skin with a brown wash, and brown fur. they look cool, and there are little bits of conversion- some old zombie parts etc.

although I'm not sure I would be able to match his paintscheme, or conversion style, which makes me want to just strip them.
He sold a bunch of nurgle converted mino's which looked really cool, and went for cheap. I didn't pick them up as I didnt want to de-convert them.

(plus isnt the nurgle mark pretty good?)

arghh, choices!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 07, 2008, 11:50:35 AM
Nurgles mark is only good on characters and minotaur.  It sucks everywhere else.

But, we have no clue what it will do on Mortals or beasts.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on April 07, 2008, 12:09:52 PM
but in a beasts army without bestigor, wont it only ever be on characters or mino's?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 07, 2008, 12:13:51 PM
Yes, you are correct. :D

But I was taking about them in general.  I am really hoping the bestigor get corrected, since we need a ranked infantry block to really stand alone.  It wouldn't take much, probably just a point drop and the ability to mark all bestigor units.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 07, 2008, 12:28:30 PM
Nurgle minos are the best of the bunch.  If the other books go the way of the daemons you should be able to mix and match marks on those too!

For their points bestigor are better value than chaos warriors.  I do not think they need a points drop.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 07, 2008, 01:26:50 PM
Well they are significantly less effective than Black orcs, who only cost one more point but get another point of leadership, additional hand weapons and great weapons, and choppas with a shield option.  BEstigor only have LD7 thought an extra point of movement.  If GW continues with their current pricing paradigm they will most likely drop the bestigor to 10 or 11 points unless all units get a mark option.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 07, 2008, 07:22:29 PM
You can't compare troops from different lists!  I think chaos marauders are fine, but they are a point more expensive than empire swordies and on a bigger base to boot.  This does not make them poor troops alone.

Bestigor come with heavy armour and great weapons for 12 points right?  Which is the same price as a chaos warrior who does not have a great weapon.  Chaos warriors are very poor compared to bestigor as they currently stand.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 07, 2008, 08:24:07 PM
Actually you can compare point costs, people do it all the time.  I understand where you are coming from and the point cost is only part of the story (units need to be looked at within their list).  But do you honestly think GW, which really wants people to buy and play with bestigor (which nobody is currently) will not drop their point cost OR make them better at their slot?

Come on Crimson, you've been around longer than me, does that sound like GW?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 08, 2008, 06:59:49 AM
If noone is using them then they will probably be made better.  However I think they are pretty good currently.  The only reason I do not use them is because I never field my army as a beasts list, its always mortal.

If they were 10 points each and had shield options I think people would use them.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 08, 2008, 10:45:29 AM
Exactly!

I don't really know why people don't use them.  I think it is generally because the army slows down alot once they hit the board.  Skirmishers in 6th couldn't get march blocked, so they were just too good.  You can almost get 2 units of herds for one bestigor.  For killing power people generally went with minotar, then added the rank bonus of herds by support charges.

If they can all be marked they would be worth while.  A shield option would be great too (that 3+ AS would rock).  Generally, I rolled out damonette or CW units instead.  With some changes or a price drop they would be worthwhile.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 08, 2008, 04:24:55 PM
I use very cheap units and then a single unit of chaos chosen warriors.  The bestigor are just slightly too expensive at the moment to be used by me.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 09, 2008, 11:12:06 AM
See I don't play Mortals as a horde army, I use Empire for that, or beasts at times (though with Beasts I use only around 100 models versus 150+ with empire).  I run knights, CW, and daemons, backed by 50 herds of so.  Chariots round it out and a giant or two.  Not that big a fan of M4 Mauarders.  Don't like the models that much either, but am anxious to see if they redo them at all.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 09, 2008, 12:28:54 PM
I run primarily marauders, with a chariot and a unit of chosen.  The rest of the army is made up of conscripted beast and daemon units.

My army is modeled on 4th edition style chaos.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 09, 2008, 04:32:29 PM
I run knights, CW, and daemons, backed by 50 herds of so. 

50 herds? Woah!  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 09, 2008, 05:09:51 PM
I thought I would brighten up this thread with some more pictures!

If you are easily offended look away!  Chaos Marauder horsemen with throwing axes, in carnival colour scheme...

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/april0508marauders001.jpg)

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/april0508marauders002.jpg)

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/april0508marauders003.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on April 09, 2008, 07:57:07 PM
cheers Crimson,
now My t shirt is stained with the bloody goo from my eyes, which just melted.

 :ph34r:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 09, 2008, 08:48:54 PM
Siberius:  Err.... 50 models worth of herds I should say.

Crimson:  Your courage is amazing to me.  Congrates!  I wouldn't post my Sword Master of Hoeth models for anything!  They look.... horrid.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 09, 2008, 09:30:33 PM
Hehe, course you never know with you Philly  :wink:

And Crimson, I love how you used the capparisoned horses for maximum pink and blueness  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: EskimoBob on April 10, 2008, 03:17:47 AM
I am thinking of starting a BOC army, and would like some input.  I want to start with just a fun figure (s) to paint -- to break up the annoyance of the ruffled sleeved Empire.

In other words I am asking what you guys had the most fun painting?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 10, 2008, 07:01:36 AM
I have another ten of those horsemen somewhere, armed with flails :)

I thought I would post them just to show you how much improved I am now :)

Most fun painting?  Probably the shaggoth, although its table top ability is somewhat lacking.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on April 10, 2008, 08:26:57 AM
I am thinking of starting a BOC army, and would like some input.  I want to start with just a fun figure (s) to paint -- to break up the annoyance of the ruffled sleeved Empire.

In other words I am asking what you guys had the most fun painting?
Honestly, I really enjoyed painting plain ungors.
great difference from the ruffles sleeves.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 10, 2008, 08:37:38 AM

Crimson...those marauders are just... :eusa_sick:


In fact I think they're so terrible wrong I'm tempted to get some of my own just to show case.

I want to see your entire army in all it's eye clashing, slaaneshy sickening glory.


Also wondered why the "core" of the word Slaanesh is markably similar to Slan...Old Ones have lots to answer for.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 10, 2008, 10:23:56 AM
I loved painting my Giant, but the first 60 - 70 gor and ungor are fun too.  Like anything, once you start getting up around 100 or so they are less enjoyable. :D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 10, 2008, 10:47:45 AM
Yeh, get a box of the beast herd... they are core so they will come in useful and they present much in the way of easy converting (heck, if you look  back a few pages you'll see even I managed a few changes here and there)  and they are cool looking... even the ungor look mean in their own cute and pathetic way  :wink:.

I look forward to your joining of the ranks of beasts here.... post some pics when you get some done!  :-D

I've nearly finished basing my spawn and my trial chaos hound... I will try and post some pics tonight after work if I am not too dead.

You know, on the subject of light blue and light pink... I really think there is something going on there beyond just the "hmm they are some crazy colours" factor. A few months ago we were painting this person's house and they had a walk in closet that had been a combination of baby pink walls with baby blue ceiling. It was truly unsettling. Like it was hard to look at... I was glad to get it covered really... so is it something about it that is beyond the normal "yikes!" of two clashing colours?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 10, 2008, 10:51:42 AM
I know my Empire models would poop a little if they looked across the battlefield and saw tourquiose colored warriors waving their pink weapons...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 10, 2008, 12:37:50 PM
If you look closely you will see the weapons are brown and silver.  Not at all dodgy coloured!

My other two units of 5 mounted marauders rotate the colours, between purple, pink and blue.  I will see if I can find them to take some photos to show you! 

I have no real space to take an army wide photograph in my house.  The only place I could do would be the dining table and that has no real natural light source to it.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 10, 2008, 03:53:58 PM
The best part is that even after painting the first unit, you just kept on painting those blue and pink men...

 :icon_eek:

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 10, 2008, 04:03:00 PM
I told you, at the time it seemed like a good idea :)  After 36 marauders, a chariot, 20 chaos warriors and 15 mounted marauders I changed my mind.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 10, 2008, 04:06:59 PM
Well I understand.  I wasted a whole unit of swordmasters and pheonix guard on my terrible painting skills before I actually stopped and decided to learn how to paint on the those static pose gor models from 3rd :D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 10, 2008, 05:15:28 PM
These were painted after about a 4 year break from painting so my skills had relapsed.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 10, 2008, 05:34:30 PM
God, been there.  Luckily it comes back pretty quick, otherwise I would never paint!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 10, 2008, 05:37:35 PM
My woodelfs are pretty much my best painted army, and I really need to finish painting them at some point.  What is kind of worrying is when I first stopped painting I was pretty good, but it took over a year to get back up to speed.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: offroadfury88 on April 10, 2008, 06:01:37 PM
theres only three people who regularly post in this thread

As long as you like them Sphinx... :dry:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 10, 2008, 06:04:28 PM
Its not post count upping.  Were the only chaos worshippers here, and were all posting photos and discussing the army.

At least most the posts have more than one line in them!   :-D

Chaos marauders are very good models.  I like bright colours :)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 10, 2008, 06:49:52 PM
Offroad, why exactly did you feel the need to come in here and post that?  Just wondering since I am not getting the context of the post.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: offroadfury88 on April 10, 2008, 08:56:27 PM
well, I did change it after I posted it because it wasnt that nice. I thought I got it before any body read it but I guess I didnt. sorry.

I just think its funny that there is a thread in a place with hundreds of members with only 3-4 people constantly posting so I thought I would point it out.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 10, 2008, 09:11:18 PM
Oh okay, no problem.  I was just wondering if it was a continuation from another thread and I had missed the point :D

Yeah it is funny that that there are only a few of us in here, but it does serve a useful purpose and is STILL better than 99% of the chaos boards out there!

Now thats just sad!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 10, 2008, 10:08:03 PM
Aren't there 4 regular posters in it?

Who is being counted as the non-regular? I hope it's not me... I should start posting more... I finished those models like I said so there's at least another one coming tonight  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 10, 2008, 11:48:07 PM
I think it is three not counting the person speaking.

The four regulars are you, notts, crimson and me.

The Minotaurs!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 11, 2008, 03:41:39 AM

The Minataurs...good name!

The Inquisitors,
The Anti-Inquisitors
The Minataurs
The Non-Aligned...every one else not above.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on April 11, 2008, 08:10:33 AM
Only four regular posters...yes, but at least one lurker slowly tempted by chaos.

Is playing Beastmen raiders in Mortheim already enough to be termed a chaos player?

Oh, and painting up some Gor and Ungor is indeed a refreshing task in between the raks of state troopers!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 11, 2008, 08:54:10 AM
I wont be posting any newly painted models for a while, although I might dig out some of my foot marauders you can appreicate the true horrors of a pink and silver paint scheme!

Real life none gaming issues taking over my free time.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Midaski on April 11, 2008, 10:27:01 AM
There must be dark waves emanating down to south of the Thames, as I was rummaging through my Beastmen boxes the other day .............

I painstakingly ( :icon_question:) converted some of those unipose plastic Gors that came with the halberds into Hand Weapon and Shield or 2 Handweapon minis a few years back and then undercoated them black and then .......................

There is actually a sizeable beastmen army lurking on shelves in my gaming room ...............

......... however I thnk that 'pink' has helped control any unsavoury thoughts ..................


 :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 11, 2008, 10:44:02 AM
I say that if you own a beasts model the taint of chaos is already upon you... whether you know it or not..  :icon_twisted:

Midaski, I have some of those guys too but gave up on them a few years back... I'd love to see how you converted them...

And the pics I was talking about, for some reason I could not get on here last night at all (most disturbing, hehe) so here they are now, my prototype chaos hound and my spawn... they look kidna like they could be brothers  :blush:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/chaoshound.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/Spawn.jpg)

Still not sure whether I have finished the spawn yet but it's close...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 11, 2008, 10:50:22 AM
Go Midaski!

And yes Moxer, as Siberius said, a Mordheim beast list is more than enough to qualify!

Siberius!  Those are cool!  Where are the models from?
Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 11, 2008, 10:56:34 AM
That second one is a mordhiem model.  I was going to buy it for a chaos spawn myself!

The first looks to be one of those new undead hounds, but painted like a chaos hound.  I had that idea myself, as buying wolfriders is not particually cash effiecient!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 11, 2008, 11:12:07 AM
I thought that was the new dire wolves.  Are they really that cost effective?  I mean the hounds are not that bad cashwise.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 11, 2008, 12:16:15 PM
Well they are 10 for Ł12 here.  Wolf riders are about double that.

Hounds are about Ł15 for 5...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 11, 2008, 12:39:29 PM
Ahhh... see I can still get 10 for $32, or what, about 20 pounds?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 11, 2008, 01:15:48 PM
Yea exactly Philly.  We get charged more, despite the main factory being here and only having small distances to travel even from one end of the country to the other.

I think those dire wolves look great, so that means I will definately be going down this path!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 11, 2008, 01:40:33 PM
Well, in your dfese, yu are buyingfrom the current price structuring program.  They just updated the American site to reflecta similar pricing scheme.  It is now $50 to buy 10, or 30 pounds or so.  My distributer is still selling them at their old prices though ($40 per 10, - 20%).

Still sucks.  But it looks like the boxes of daemonettes and Bloodletters are cheaper for you guys than us.  We are looking at $25 for 10 while its only 12 pounds for you,or $20 american.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on April 11, 2008, 03:59:55 PM
For you beastly lurkers aye question:

I was thinking that the new Hordes of Chaos list in WD might be an interesting thing to do, but would beasts be more "cool" or "more demanding" to play than ordinary chaos?
Would it be possible to make a seaborne Beast of Chaos list, or are they completley wacko? Somekind of Norscan beastmens, who is not only bitter and vile, but that got some sense of pride?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on April 11, 2008, 04:06:14 PM
seaborne beasts?
Hm, the normal goat-and-ram kind of beastman is probably neither willing nor capable of steering a ship. But there could be fishy beastmen somewhere...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 11, 2008, 06:30:35 PM
In answer to the questions that is indeed a dire wolf which I have whacked a little more green stuff fur on and gave some eyes in place of the holes... I've done that with all of them. I'm pretty satisfied that they stay in line with the rest of the beasts and Philly... isn't the chaos hound box like $40 whilst the dire wolf box set is only $22... that's why I went dire  :-D

The spawn is the 'Thing in the woods' from Mordheim indeed. Never played it but I've alwyas had my eye on this as a potential spawn since and I saw it and for an all beast army I think it's kinda perfect  :lol:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 11, 2008, 07:03:56 PM
I was thinking that the new Hordes of Chaos list in WD might be an interesting thing to do, but would beasts be more "cool" or "more demanding" to play than ordinary chaos?
Neither is inherantly cooler than the other,since they both serve different roles.  I would of course say Beasts are cooler, while Crimson will certainly pick Mortals.  Its a flavor thing really.

Quote
Would it be possible to make a seaborne Beast of Chaos list, or are they completley wacko? Somekind of Norscan beastmens, who is not only bitter and vile, but that got some sense of pride?

It could be, if they could get their hands on some boats, though it is unlikely.  They certainly wouldn't make boats, but they could raid them.  If you are looking for a seaborne list i would suggest Mortals from norsca, the same as the one I run.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 11, 2008, 10:23:15 PM
In response to which is better, mortal or deamons, it's one of those where you just gotta go where your soul takes you... look deep and you will find the answer...

(or you could go by how much you like horns and lots of fur...)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Warlord on April 12, 2008, 02:37:15 AM
The spawn is the 'Thing in the woods' from Mordheim indeed. Never played it but I've alwyas had my eye on this as a potential spawn since and I saw it and for an all beast army I think it's kinda perfect  :lol:

I use one of those as my spawn. And I am in a similar boat to crimson - mainly a mortal list, with some supporting beasts, so the think in the woods fits well. Except that Spawn are useless...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 12, 2008, 03:08:56 AM
Useless but unpredictable. The whole random thing is cool... and for 60 points you can just wind it up, put it on the board and see what happens  :-P

At least, that's what I intend to do  :happy:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 12, 2008, 08:47:05 AM
Slaanesh spawn are ok.  With three dice of movement and the ability to act as an anvil they work out pretty good when I want to tie something down for a while.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 12, 2008, 09:32:24 AM
I prefer laying down a giant for my rare.  I have 7 spawn, but only for the Morghur list.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 12, 2008, 09:32:55 AM
Here are some more pictures from my chaos horde.

First up, two warriors of chaos, one from each of my two units. 

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/april0508chaos001.jpg)

Now I have models from my first marauder unit.

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/april0508chaos003.jpg)

These are models made from the remains of the kitbashed marauders and bretonian knights

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/april0508chaos002.jpg)

Finally, because my army has three main colours, I have one unit of marauders in each main shade of my carnival theme.  Pink and purple have been and gone, so here is blue!

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb260/crimsonsphinx/april0508chaos004.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 12, 2008, 12:56:05 PM
You undercoat white Crimson? (that sentence sounds weird but hopefully you know what I mean  :-P)

I really like the model on the right in each picture except the last... where for some reason I like the one on the left better...  8-)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 12, 2008, 03:22:56 PM
Yes and no.  I undercoated all these models white, although I prefer using black.  Its just for the bright colours I was using I thought I would use white.

Black I use on pretty much every army now  :-D

As you can tell, none of these are painted particually well.  None even have bases completed, although I did go around one of the chaos warriors bases in bestial brown when I decided to tidy that particular unit up.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 12, 2008, 07:10:12 PM
Yeh, I used to undercoat white too but then recently started undercoating black and wished I had done it all along. My white undercoated stuff just never looked as menacing as I wanted it... plus with almost always using dark colours it took twice as long.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 13, 2008, 12:36:16 AM
Well as long as you learned your lesson about priming white!  I made the same mistake with the Sword masters I ruined.

I prime everything black now!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 13, 2008, 02:57:02 AM
It's the chaos way  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 13, 2008, 09:24:47 AM
The only army I undercoat white now are my eldar.  Since the colour scheme is bone and orange [again, another horrifically bright scheme:) ] then it works better from a lighter undercoat!

Otherwise every other army I own in all three systems I currently play has been undercoated black.  White is too unforgiving for a middling painter like me  :-D

If I remember correctly, those chaos warriors were not even undercoated, I think they were painted directly onto the bare plastic....  :icon_redface:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 13, 2008, 02:48:16 PM


According to the Citadel Painting Guide most undercoat white to create a more clean and even painting platform.

I personally spray black because I don't like bright models and you can build the colour up using layers anyway to get it just as bright as white undercoat.

Not to mention white is far less forgiving. Black in the creases between army and body can be mistaken for shading or shadow effect. White on the other hand just looks out of place.

BTW Crimson. You're models are disgusting but I find myself looking at them over and over!

I think after I finish painting my now 4000 point Empire Army (scary as I only started last December) I'm going to have to do a Chaos Army and I think I'll aim to trump your models (if its possible).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 13, 2008, 03:06:15 PM
Another chaos army huh? This thread really is corrupting the forum  :-D

Do you really think that it's true that most people undercoat white...? I just can't believe that anymore... maybe back a few years but now?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 13, 2008, 03:15:28 PM

I don't know if it's true or not. I just know I prefer black and so do most people I know  :closed-eyes:


Well I have most army books. I'm getting interested by Skaven Grey Seer, 3xWarplock Egineers, 2x50 slaves, 30xJezzials (not a cheese army at all).

Or Chaos- maybe do one to be the antagonist to my AL's protagonist persona, lots of Chaos Warriors because I love the models (sure not very possable but they're dour, imposing and look scary like they should.)

Or Lizardmen-2nd Gen Slann, BSB, 2xSkink Shamans, 4x20 skinks with poison thingies, 4x25 Saurus warriors with mark that generates +1PD/DD, 2xRhino thingies.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 14, 2008, 07:18:49 AM
I have a skaven horde too, but thats not painted yet.  Im mostly an evil/neutral player, I don't much like good armies.  Humans are ok because they are corrupt  :-D

White undercoat is really only good for display painters who are capable of exceptional skill throughout a regiment.  I know im not that good, so stick to black where mistakes are easier to hide!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 14, 2008, 07:45:28 AM
Really I always found myself being light because thats where I'd be if I was really taking part. But no one can deny that the darkside is nearly always cooler.

I'm going to buy the Maleus Darkblade on Foot model ASAP to represent my DE lord for when they come out in August. Quake mere mortals for the true lords of pleasure and pain are willing to teach you a true lesson of seduction and death.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on April 14, 2008, 09:11:31 AM
Just want to let you know, that i ebayed 2 beast chariots that went cheap. I don't know what made me do it, my Mortheim beasts surely won't need them.
On the other hand i have about 25 Gor/Ungor which is too much for Mortheim anyways. AND i finally ordered the real Mortheim Beastmen raiders because they are so cool.

I wanted to get a beastmen army when the new beasts come out (knowing that this will give me a year or more to finish my empire), but at the moment it looks like i will have one before that.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 14, 2008, 10:25:37 AM
At some stage I will endeavour to actually get some empire pics up on this website.  As it is, they are currently partaking in a campaign against Vampire Counts and Dwarfs which I am winning.

I prefer evil armies.  I guess its because I tend to be good in real life, so being evil in a game is a form of escapism.   :-D 
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 14, 2008, 11:03:59 AM
I prefer evil armies.  I guess its because I tend to be good in real life, so being evil in a game is a form of escapism.   :-D 

Are you sure? ;)

Duh, duh, duuuuuuuuh!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 14, 2008, 11:26:01 AM

hmm Skaven are calling me. I just finished painting 20 of the little cretins. Sadly the models are not for me.

Inquistors, I did atone for my sins as I finished my Arch Lector and 90% of my War Altar!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 14, 2008, 11:50:16 AM
Do you like painting skaven?  I have three units of 30+ clan rats, 3 units of 20 slaves, 2 units of 40 plaguemonks and host of other models that need painting for my army!

Im such a horribly slow painter I will probably never get them done.  The models just dont do it for me either :(
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 14, 2008, 12:19:42 PM

hahah if you want to ship them to me in Hong Kong I'm sure we can work something out =P PM if you're truely interested.

I paint basic infantry at $30HKD which includes making and basing.
Characters on Foot at $70HKD

I know way too fucking cheap. But I'm stuck with that price list now (I'm tapping all those cheap bastards who can't paint but don't want professionally done models. I can paint good and well but they won't win an award). I'll Post pics of the Skaven and some other models I've painted here later.

btw know you're joking but I felt like promoting!

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 14, 2008, 02:24:01 PM
How much is a hk dollar worth in pounds stirling? :P

I don't like owning models that I have not painted.  I have a few my brother did, but thats it for others.  I would rather me make a poor job than let someone else do a good one.  I know these marauders are not much good but I was showing how badly they are painted.  My woodelfs and some of my beastmen models are leagues ahead of them :)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 14, 2008, 02:28:24 PM
divide by 15 currently...

so thats 1 Pound 75. I really should up my price.

I know what you mean about wanting to have your own painted models. I've got the same feeling. Actually I'm going for a Free-Lance Writing gig so hopefully I'll stop painting other peoples figs and actually finally finish mine.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 17, 2008, 02:33:48 PM
I saw Crimson's personal text and of course Philly already has something up there but it seems we are declaring our allegiance to the world now so it was time for me to do the same  :icon_twisted:

Not heard a lot from Notts recently on how the army is going... you were on a roll before... still painting away? I've finally got all my ogres put together now (there was a lot of cutting off of legs and hands) so hopefully I will get them finished soon. In terms of converting I think they may be my proudest acheivement yet... not that it's saying much. But at least I am happy with them  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 17, 2008, 02:52:37 PM

well I *shamlessly trying to jump aboard the small ship* went goo goo ga ga over the new deamons today.


But then I decided Imperail Fists for my 40k army...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 18, 2008, 07:01:37 AM
Currently my motivation is swinging towards finishing painting my keeper of secrets that I started about 2 years ago.

I may post up its work in progress colours as I am currently stuck as to where to go.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on April 18, 2008, 08:03:00 AM
Ah, you beasts! :icon_wink:

Well, maybe the Hordes of Chaos will have something for me when they come. Or more likely the Dark elves...
But I feel the pull of the "bretonnian" Border prince army that I got an idea for, so I can use my HE heroes and cavalry for something new, together with hordes of dirtcheap infantry.

And then my mercenary orks, "Da green cumpanee" are craving for attention, and them Drakwald warriors of my Drakwald brigade say I should pet them a bit more.
Luckily, for now, my Wood elves are rather content. I got a new devilish Wood elf army up my sleeve, and you may just get a look sometime...

But they better make the hordes of chaos good so one can make nice norscans. And I would so much want to be able to make a norscan lord, not clad in all that silly armour, but like the one that duelled with the follower of Gilles, the duel depicted in the Bret book.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 18, 2008, 12:58:37 PM
So you're saying that if a Norse viking could have gotten his hands on some fully articulated platemail that weighed nothing and moved like a second skin he wouldn't have worn it?
I'm no archealogist but I highly doubt he would have made a fuss.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 18, 2008, 04:20:37 PM
Chaos armour is a gift from the gods.  I am sure he would be honoured to wear it.  If it doesnt suit, then a marauder in just chainmail can count as chaos armour anyway.  Or even leather.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Qrab on April 19, 2008, 11:00:35 PM
Just wanted to chime in on the whole white primer/black primer issue. My entire Nurgle Horde was primed white and there's nothing bright about the models & I think they look plenty menacing. For example:

(http://www.pbase.com/qrab/image/74689331.jpg)
(http://www.pbase.com/qrab/image/71351181.jpg)
(http://www.pbase.com/qrab/image/71351225.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 20, 2008, 12:35:29 AM
Let me rephrase then:  Black primer works much better if you are not an awesome painter.

There, that was my intention :D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 20, 2008, 12:38:00 AM
My goodness Qrab, they are incredible!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 20, 2008, 01:02:36 AM
Have you never seen Qrabs stuff?  I think the link to them is in his sig.  Awesome work.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Qrab on April 20, 2008, 05:41:47 AM
Thanks guys. Pictures of my stuff can be seen here: http://www.pbase.com/qrab (http://www.pbase.com/qrab)

One of the best painters I've ever met (Jeremie Bonamant Teboul) said this about priming (paraphrased):
For painting single, display quality models prime white. For painting entire armies, prime black & then drybrush. But the easiest thing to do is not paint at all.

My problem is that I just cannot see the detail on a model if it's primed black.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Hooch on April 20, 2008, 11:33:41 AM
Just thought I'd chime in on the undercoating bit.

Normally I prime black, always have done, as I am not the best painter.

However, as Qrab said it is not very easy to see detail.

However, I recently received some Greatswords off Ebay, who had been primed White.

I decided to try washing them with black, so that it would go in the recesses and a bit more on the metal surfaces. It worked, but best of all I could see the majority of the detail, yet I still go the shadow I need. I think I will try it a bit more and update you lot.

Hooch

PS Qrab: Your stuff is awesome  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 20, 2008, 01:04:50 PM
No, I have never seen Qrab's stuff. You should go work for GW and paint their stuff how it should be painted.  :biggriin:


Hooch, interesting idea... you should update us indeed. Course being the beasts we are, black is really the only way we should go...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on April 21, 2008, 09:49:48 AM
Black is better to hide amature painters poor freehand painting skill.  At least thats what I use it for.

White is better if you are a good painter, like Qrab!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 21, 2008, 11:12:56 AM
My feelings exactly Crimson.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: W0lf on April 23, 2008, 05:03:32 PM
wait you people paint models?

:P.

I cant stand painting, id rather do just about anything up to and includign watching other people paint (how dull?).

As its a lesisure activity its very rare i engage in it lol.

Very very nice nurgle warrior however, now if GW could give us the rules to make (non-chosen) warriors useable thatd be grand.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 23, 2008, 06:00:19 PM
They will... and it will be good.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 30, 2008, 09:44:13 PM
Philly mentioned in another thread about missile weapons in the new beasts army... it got me to thinking what would be appropriate...

Ungors with javelins could be nifty...

Course centigors have throwing axes already. But then you often see centaurs  portrayed with bows... maybe they could have an option of a special centigor short bow wielding unit... course whether that'd be any good or not is another matter... but they could look cool...

The only other possible thing I can think of as fluffy might be slings... does any army actually use them anymore?

Anywho... what were you thinking Philly?

I was thinking about what you said baout chariots and the potential of special too... that would be horrible when I started to think on it... I mean special choices are already chocka blocka... they'd have to push centigor into core or something or it'd be crazy... it's all very sad, I kinda like the current book... I hope they don't do anything disasterous... but I can't help but feel they might want to mess too much...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 30, 2008, 10:05:47 PM
I was thinking bows for the Centigor (which was initially the rumor back in 2002 but the centigor became more beasty and less centaur).  Javlins would be great for ungor, but they would probably have to bring back the Ungor skirmisher (scouts maybe) units from 5th.

Not too much shooting, just a little.  Wouldn't be game breaking and could be cool.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 30, 2008, 10:16:23 PM
Yeh... for an army that for all intensive purposes has no shooting... like you say it would be a nice little touch.

Everyone else would probably complain though you know  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 03, 2008, 11:55:02 PM
Hey!  Felix redid the Beastman!

Wahooo!   :::cheers:::

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: offroadfury88 on May 04, 2008, 12:13:18 AM
Is there a picture of it or the first one?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 04, 2008, 03:01:35 AM
Hey!  Felix redid the Beastman!

Wahooo!   :::cheers:::

Phil

I'm guessing this is not Felix of Gotrek and Felix... unless something really disturbing has happened...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on May 04, 2008, 08:51:26 AM
In Phillys dreams Felix litterally did the beastmen...   :-D  Cat beastmen that is.

I bought my 6th centigor and minotaur standard bearer this weekend only to find out that the hordes list does not have options for either.  Joy of joys.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 04, 2008, 11:22:50 AM
Has there been some word about the horde list Crimson?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on May 04, 2008, 08:44:08 PM
I am not sure.  I keep reading rumours and I am stupidly still buying beast units like centigors and minotaurs when I don't have enough core to realistically field a beast army.  Ok I could field two units of herds, a unit of bestigor and a chariot, but its not a strong list.  It might cost me a lot of money to get that into shape, money which I do not really have spare if I want a daemon army.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 04, 2008, 10:12:15 PM
I cruised over to warseer and saw some good news.  Apparently, if you lead your army with the Demon Prince, demons become special or rare.  Likewise there are magic items that allow mortals to take demons and beastmen, but not many.  This is apparently going to be in the WD article and is part of the current playlist.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on May 05, 2008, 08:47:02 AM
That does sound to be good news philly.  :)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on May 05, 2008, 09:16:06 AM
Sounds interesting, but where is that darn WD? It is already the merry month of may, but it ain´t merry yet! If I ever make such a force, they will have a cat for mascot, and the cats name would be Philly...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 05, 2008, 11:53:31 AM
Now its just a question of whether or not they will keep them.

What is the opinion on the new knights?  I am looking forward to seeing them since they have been doing some good work lately, but they have also been doing some bad....

Mathi:  Its the June WD I think, definitely not the May one.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on May 06, 2008, 08:41:10 AM
New knights?  Surely not?  The current ones are great models.

I would rather have some great weapon/halberd armed chaos warrior models!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 06, 2008, 10:36:32 AM
New knights?  Surely not?  The current ones are great models.

I would rather have some great weapon/halberd armed chaos warrior models!

The new knights will be getting new horses and be plastic.  The current ones are awesome but they are riding on Empire ponies...

As for CW, they are getting equipment sprues in the boxes and being sold in groups of 10 (so THEY say).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on May 06, 2008, 10:53:17 AM
Are these new chaos warriors too Philly?  How do you know all this?

More importantly, how come I have not heard about all this!   :-D
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 06, 2008, 11:09:48 AM
Man, I hope they don't look too cool... I'd hate to be lured back to my old ways of fielding mixed chaos armies...

Must... Remain... Pure!

And what happened to our fellow beast Notts? I was enjoying seeing his rapidly expanding army...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 06, 2008, 11:20:51 AM
I was wondering where notts was, but he did just get a pile of models so he is probably doing warhammer stuff :D

No new warriors, just a change in their packageing and the inclusion of a new sprue which will probably have great weapons and halberds on them.

I hope we can buy the sprue seperately.

As for the info, the Warseer rumor roundup which was pretty damn close on the Demons.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on May 06, 2008, 01:21:58 PM
I have found some other chaos models I might post up on here.  It depends what the sunlight is like when I get in tonight.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on May 06, 2008, 01:43:04 PM
A cancer is growing in the heart of the Empire.  Surely the Mods should lock this thread or at least move it to the Back Table.

(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k196/Sigmar2006/inquisition3.gif)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on May 06, 2008, 01:44:15 PM
Its not backtable material.  All warhammer threads, which are not emprie related belong in the Counts tavern, as per the rules Rufas!

 :-D  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on May 06, 2008, 03:12:57 PM
And rufas, in here we do of course expect the inquisition!

There are no beast rumours to be heard up to now, are there?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 06, 2008, 03:34:14 PM
Yes, lets not bastardise the Back Table more than it deserves or render the Tavern almost totally useless by reducing the posts even further.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Midaski on May 06, 2008, 06:36:54 PM
I would rather have some great weapon/halberd armed chaos warrior models!

Well I could help there - I am sure my son still has the ones with the big halberds like 3 releases ago - the ones that were impossible to rank up..............  :icon_wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on May 06, 2008, 06:54:14 PM
I have got about 36 of those old forgotten models Midaski.  Hidden away never to see the light of day.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 06, 2008, 07:29:36 PM
I have 20 more painted in garish blue if you need 'em  :wink: :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Qrab on May 07, 2008, 01:02:27 AM
New knights?  Surely not?  The current ones are great models.

They look great until you start comparing them to other models.
Then they look puny.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on May 09, 2008, 01:25:26 PM
hey guys.

reasons why I havent been around: I'm back at uni. I spend more time either studying, with my girlfriend, or out with my friends, so less time on the computer.
I have my finals in about 4 days, so I am studying pretty hard
the internet didnt work at my house for a while.

reasons why you havent seen any more beasts: I dont take anything Warhammer related to uni, so all my modeling/painting and gaming is from nottingham.

questions: should I be worried about the legitimacy of a pure beasts army now with all the demon and HoC malarky?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 09, 2008, 01:41:12 PM
No, the beasts are fine, we have everything we need.  I wouldn't buy too many chariots though, they will probably be 2 for 1 specials.

We can still use the magic items from the Choas list, since they havn't errated our book.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 09, 2008, 04:09:33 PM
Maybe I'll post more on here when I'm not just having lunch, but good luck with the finals man!

I only have two chariots so far myself.

Not that I could anyways, not having any money, but frankly, I'm scared to buy anything more for my beasts at the moment until we know what might be axed or radically changed for the new book.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on May 09, 2008, 07:15:11 PM
Technically beasts can still field all the powerful tzeench mortal characters too :)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 09, 2008, 07:16:19 PM
Not that I could anyways, not having any money, but frankly, I'm scared to buy anything more for my beasts at the moment until we know what might be axed or radically changed for the new book.

I know the feeling.

Crimson:  Thats iffy, then again, if they can't then we can't use them ortal magic items either.  Someone will need to find GW's exact words on the subject.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Midaski on May 12, 2008, 02:54:03 PM
Thought you minotaurs might like this ..........

http://strangecosmos.com/content/item/128501.html?category=CHINGLISH?xml=/news/2008/04/24/nogc124.xml?start=?xml=/news/2008/02/27/nspeed127.xml?itemid=8704#so8?in_article_id=92929&in_page_id=8?in_article_id=91228&in_page_id=2?c=petaundsx8?v=qLa4jjEG_74?v=VFN8HV_20IE
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 12, 2008, 03:05:12 PM
That's so wrong... and yet so right   :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 12, 2008, 03:53:10 PM
All I want to know is what the hell were you doing at that site Midaski? 

 :biggriin:

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 17, 2008, 04:07:33 PM
So we're planning on a 1500 point battle in the very near future... and I am wondering about trying something out. 2 units of 5 chaos hounds set up in ambush... the plan being to use them as war machine eaters. Or at least botherers. Or even annoying shooty unit rear attackers... as they'd come on at unit strength 5 they can get the bonus for rear charging and maybe cause some severe wobbles in the Imperial ranks. Either that or he'd have to turn around to shoot them... which works for me too  :wink:.

I realise that one of the units if not both would not show up where I want but even if one does it is a major bonus in my mind and if neither do... it's not the end of the world...

Any thoughts? Tried this out anyone?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 17, 2008, 06:22:46 PM
I wouldn't count on those hounds to do much.  I tend to run 2 - 3 herds as ambushers.  It isn't that expensive to drop 10 of them.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 17, 2008, 08:58:28 PM
In points value, no.

In money value, cha ching!

Hehe, more hounds will be on my shopping list when I can afford to have a shopping list. Maybe when I do I will use 2 units of 10 for ambushers so I get rank bonus and the chance to outnumber too... one of those turning up behind the enemy lines would probably be pretty scary. As it is, I might try this tactic I talk about and report back. Worst comes to worst, I've burnt up 40 points...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 17, 2008, 11:14:08 PM
See I would go the other way.  I would drop the hounds normally and field the beast herds as ambushers, except those with characters in them.  The LD5 almost ensures the hounds will not arrive where you want them.  They can however get within charge range by turn 3, when the ambushers will be able to charge as well.

Still, let me know how it goes!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 18, 2008, 01:26:44 AM
Ok, I'll do some experimenting... and I'll be using GW dice for those ld tests  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: McKnight on May 20, 2008, 03:34:44 PM
A tired man in black clothes walks into the beastman cave. Carrying a torch, walking towards the beast with a large white hat.

He stops in front of the beast and looks at him, waving the torch.... Then tosses the torch on the firepace, which makes it ignite insanely. He then puts down his bedroll and sits on it, preparing a marshmellow on a stick..

Then he says:
"Yea, well I needed a place to crash... can I stay?"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 20, 2008, 11:24:20 PM
Of course you can!  YOu picked a good spot to stay, since cells 4 - 6 are now danny's nursery, and Siberius has been cobbling together bodies in 6 and 7.  God only knows what for!  :D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 21, 2008, 10:28:57 AM
All will be revealed.  :evil:

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: skinkslayer on May 23, 2008, 08:02:28 AM
Yay! They just came, the start to my Beasts army,
6 Minotaurs and a Doombull for $92 Aus with a movement tray.
Next up the beastlord with the oversized axe!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 23, 2008, 10:23:26 AM
New beasts.... and with lots of minotaurs... mwuhaha.... soon we will be unstopable  8-)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 23, 2008, 11:46:01 AM
It would seem that the mintaur are growing.... it is as you predicted SIberius when you counseled the rabbits liver...

Anyone see the new WIP pictures of the Beastman over at Avatar of War?  Better than the last one!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 24, 2008, 12:19:55 PM
Rabbits liver, always the best and (afterwards) tastiest way to consult with the dark one's and their purposes.

*goes to look at AoW*

Hmm, I couldn't find them... I still love all those minis there though... I wish somehow they could churn out more!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 24, 2008, 12:22:59 PM
It's hard to find.  For all the best WIP pics, go to the forums.  You can actually give feedback and they, you know really change the models!!!!

It actually is awesome.  People have really gotten the model to an awesome looking place.

Like I said, its in the forum, I can't recall where but its pretty intuitive.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 25, 2008, 04:55:54 AM
Just bought two more boxes of Beast Herd and another Beast Chariot. Need some more Characters, possibly Shamans. Filling out my Beast Ranks, now that I cannot use them with my Mortals.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on May 25, 2008, 05:12:36 AM

hmm can we get a deamon thread (granted its 40k but they cross) or hijack onto this one?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 25, 2008, 06:01:49 AM
Just bought two more boxes of Beast Herd and another Beast Chariot. Need some more Characters, possibly Shamans. Filling out my Beast Ranks, now that I cannot use them with my Mortals.

Sounds cool. Of course, being pure beast is the way to go anyways  :wink: :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 25, 2008, 12:03:47 PM
Just bought two more boxes of Beast Herd and another Beast Chariot. Need some more Characters, possibly Shamans. Filling out my Beast Ranks, now that I cannot use them with my Mortals.

Grrr...

Starting... to like... CannonofDoom... again...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 26, 2008, 12:35:18 AM
Aw Philly, you know you never stopped loving me. :icon_redface: :biggriin:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 26, 2008, 01:21:20 AM
Yeah, thats true.

 :::cheers:::

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on May 26, 2008, 01:44:06 AM

This threads taken a turn to the slaaneshi...bring back the sticky smelling fur with big horns and big feet which need to wear big socks...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 26, 2008, 05:10:18 PM
Tell you what, I'll take some pics of the last 4 beast herd I painted... pure beastness  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 26, 2008, 11:36:59 PM
To those who didn't see it yet, this is the final beastman hero model.

(http://avatars-of-war.com/images/aow_beastman_wip2.jpg)

I have to say, I am not a huge fan of the skulls strapped to the horns.  Here is a composite of the model without the horns, which they say are optional:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Gorkermorker/aow_beastman_wip2.jpg)

It is a step up from this one:

(http://arena-deathmatch.com/images/aow_beastman_wip.jpg)

But it is still not really on par with that awesome Goblin King model:

(http://www.avatars-of-war.com/images/aow10.jpg)


Then again, the Goblin is Felix, the other model is Raul's so that could be it.

Phil

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on May 27, 2008, 12:15:22 AM

hmm I ran into one of the Rakham sculptors today. Well he no longer works for them he and 2 others are the creators of the game Tannhauser (board game futursitic killing thing- lots of fun). He lives in China to be near the factories.

All of a sudden I'm finding myself meeting with the hobby bigshots- publishers, writers, sculptors. Next I'm going to meet someone with a name!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: offroadfury88 on May 27, 2008, 05:07:18 AM
That beastman is pretty cool, too intense though. I still think the two GW beastmen with the two hand weapons and great weapon are better.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 27, 2008, 01:17:56 PM
You know... weirdly, I'm not sure if I like that any better than any of the GW beastlords...  :|
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on May 27, 2008, 05:10:34 PM
Indeed, it is cool, but I think the GW beastlords do look better.
I have seen one for half the price many times in my local store. Arrgh... I must restrain myself...
No, for an evil force I will do VC or TK. As I feel now, VC with a strong TK flavour...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 27, 2008, 05:15:43 PM
Agreed, I like the beastlord with the two hand weapons the best.  It's too bad, since I was really hoping for something more from Felix.  Maybe if he had done it and not Raul it would have been better.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 28, 2008, 10:27:50 PM
I may or may not end up getting the beastlord but there are some other wonderful minis they have done that I seriously want  :icon_biggrin:

Anywho... the beasts are coming along slowly...

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/GorsUngors.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 29, 2008, 12:15:28 AM
I really like all the conversions you have been doing on them!  Very cool!

 :mrgreen:

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 29, 2008, 12:58:47 AM
Thanks, the colours on the shield are my brother's Empire army colours and the head is a wood elf (which my wife plays). 

Just a little threat  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 31, 2008, 04:16:43 AM
Philly, I've been playing with my beast list. Can I get an opinion?

All Marks Undivided.

Beastlord
Tuskgor Chariot, Black Maul, Chaos Armor, Horn of the Great Hunt, shield (283)

Wargor
Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Shield, Pelt of the Dark Young, The Dark Heart (120)

Bray-Shaman
Staff of Darkoth, Dispel Scroll, Level 2, Beast Lore (160)

Bray-Shaman
The Goretooth, Dispel Scroll, Braystaff, Level 2, Death Lore (166)

Beast Herd
10 Gors with Additional Hand Weapons, Foe-Render, Musician, Standard, 8 Ungors (137)

Beast Herd
10 Gors with Additional Hand Weapons, Foe-Render, Musician, Standard, 8 Ungors (137)

Beast Herd
12 Gors with shields, Foe-Render, Musician, Standard, 8 Ungors with shields (159)

10 Warhounds (60)

10 Warhounds (60)

Tuskgor Chariot (85)

4 Minotaurs
Bloodkine, Light Armor, Great Weapons (216)


4 Minotaurs
Bloodkine, Light Armor, Great Weapons (216)


4 Minotaurs
Bloodkine, Light Armor, Great Weapons (216)

Chaos Giant
Mutant Monstrosity (225)

2240 total

Basically the hounds and the herd with shields would screen everything except the other two herds and the wargor, which I would ambush. The chariots would run together, or seperate to help the minotaurs if I felt I needed them. If the opponent had a lot of shooting I might ambush 1 less herd so I could spread my shamans out in units.

Opine?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 31, 2008, 11:10:41 AM
All Marks Undivided.

Beastlord
Tuskgor Chariot, Black Maul, Chaos Armor, Horn of the Great Hunt, shield (283)

I used to include the Horn in every army I made, but now I don't.  The slightly improved odds of arriving on the battle field didn't really match up with its point cost or the slot it took up. That said, now that we don't have access to anything else, I guess it makes for a must use again!  The one thing I would do though is use the slaughterers blade instead of the black maul (even with the S5 upward maximum, though it is a tossup when he is mounted since the Maul gives a full S7).  It is a great item and helps to mitigate the lack of ward saves in the army.  Chaos armor would be good too.

Quote
Wargor
Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Shield, Pelt of the Dark Young, The Dark Heart (120)

If this guy isn't a BSB, I would make him another shaman.  I know this sounds wierd, but statistically its a wash.  The shaman has S5 with the braystaff, and 2 attacks.  GIve them the mark of slaanesh and you have a savage magic phase (with a few powerstones added).

Quote
Bray-Shaman
Staff of Darkoth, Dispel Scroll, Level 2, Beast Lore (160)

Bray-Shaman
The Goretooth, Dispel Scroll, Braystaff, Level 2, Death Lore (166)

Both the darkoth staff and the Gore tooth are must haves.  Good selection.

Quote
Beast Herd
10 Gors with Additional Hand Weapons, Foe-Render, Musician, Standard, 8 Ungors (137)

Beast Herd
10 Gors with Additional Hand Weapons, Foe-Render, Musician, Standard, 8 Ungors (137)

Beast Herd
12 Gors with shields, Foe-Render, Musician, Standard, 8 Ungors with shields (159)

You can drop all of these units to 9 gor and 8 ungor.  This sounds strange, but 17 is widely considered the norm for fighty herds.  They do well as ambushers, though I assume these three are character vehicles.

Quote
10 Warhounds (60)

10 Warhounds (60)

These are good, though I am not sure where your ambushers are coming from since the inclusion of characters in the herds makes them count as 2.  If the Horn of the Hunt is being used, I would want a minimum of 3 units, and 4 would be best.  A couple things you could do:

1. Make a couple units of minimum herds, with 5 gor and 5 ungor with only the musician.  These would make good ambushers, moving into the backfield to take artillary and soft points.  The addition of a foerender will be expensive but can improve the ambush chance and killing power of the unit.  Make all units have AHW unless you are fighting something with high toughnesses.  The additional attacks from the foerender and the gors will make up for the few saves the shields may give.

2.  Break the hounds up into 4 groups of 5.  Use these as ambushers.  The only problem with this is they will almost certainly fail to arrive where you want them too, but with their M7, they will often arrive in a place where they can still get to soft points.

Quote
Tuskgor Chariot (85)

4 Minotaurs
Bloodkine, Light Armor, Great Weapons (216)


4 Minotaurs
Bloodkine, Light Armor, Great Weapons (216)


4 Minotaurs
Bloodkine, Light Armor, Great Weapons (216)

Very nice.  My one suggestion, and this is going to be tough, is to drop the bloodkine from all of these units, and drop the 3rd minotuar group.  Convert these points into 3 more chariots.  Also, ditch the LA, which is only useful on Nurgle minos for a 4+ save.  You could still keep all three minotaur groups, and just add one chariot if you want.  I love both minos and chariots, but the point value and threat of chariots are too good to pass up.

Quote
Chaos Giant
Mutant Monstrosity (225)

Mmmm... giants :D

I don't buy MM anymore, since I had a giant crowd surf one too many times in a battle once.  Still, against S3 shooting armies, it is an absolute savior!  I just like to cut points whenever possible, and I drop a pair of giants in most games.

I like the list as it stands, with only the removal of a gor or two from each unit and the champions and LA from the minotaur, you could buy another chariot and still have a strong list.  Like I said, the horn is only really good if you are ambushing with alot of models, and the  use of AHW is a must with herds.  Don't screen with the hounds, since a herd will actually be a better unit for this job due to the additional -1 to hit.  Also, don't buy shields for ungor.  Ever.
I am writing a Beastman tactica (for Empire players) right now, and one of the things I use is the pinwheel of death.  It involves cheap 17 man herds converging with chariots as they spin around a unit, trying to remove it through CR.  It requires the herds to be both light, cheap, and possibly expendible.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 31, 2008, 01:00:52 PM
2.  Break the hounds up into 4 groups of 5.  Use these as ambushers.  The only problem with this is they will almost certainly fail to arrive where you want them too, but with their M7, they will often arrive in a place where they can still get to soft points.

Though with 4 units of them... one of them seems bound to make it in the right place... and that might be enough...

All Marks Undivided.

That's what I like to hear  8-) :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 31, 2008, 01:07:14 PM
The reason that one Herd has shields is because that's the way I built and painted the models, before I knew better. It was my first herd, and meant to run with my mortal army.

I will try out the minimum units of beast today, and see how that goes. I will probably add in the foe-render along with the musician, because I will probably have the points. That's why I gave my Minotaurs LA and my Giant Mutant Monstrosity. I don't own any more chariots, and I had the points.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 31, 2008, 01:32:25 PM
All Marks Undivided.

Beastlord
Tuskgor Chariot, Black Maul, Chaos Armor, Horn of the Great Hunt, shield (283)

I used to include the Horn in every army I made, but now I don't.  The slightly improved odds of arriving on the battle field didn't really match up with its point cost or the slot it took up. That said, now that we don't have access to anything else, I guess it makes for a must use again!  The one thing I would do though is use the slaughterers blade instead of the black maul (even with the S5 upward maximum, though it is a tossup when he is mounted since the Maul gives a full S7).  It is a great item and helps to mitigate the lack of ward saves in the army.  Chaos armor would be good too.

I could exchange the Horn of the Great Hunt for the Crown of Horns, which would give him a 5+ ward save. And he's already GOT chaos armor.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 31, 2008, 01:38:48 PM
Yeah, take the crown, and I didn't notice the CA!

Also, I mix my shield armed gor in with the rest of the herd, it adds the the chaotic look.  Plsu, if they make us pay for AHW in the next book, you're going to be pretty happy you took the shields for those models.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 31, 2008, 01:44:18 PM
Also, the Slaughterer's Blade is models on foot only.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 31, 2008, 01:46:04 PM
If I made that wargor a BSB, which banner would you recommend? Warbanner? Beast Banner?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 02, 2008, 02:15:27 AM
Well, I decided on Beast Banner, and it worked rather well. I played against Ogres, and it was my first time playing a pure beast army that wasn't also pure Minotaurs.

The minimum sized herds did very well, ambushing along with the 4 5 dog units of warhounds, causing the ogre player to panic and devote a unit of ironguts and a unit of maneaters to keep from getting rear charged. I lured both units into flank charges from minotaurs that they did not survive. My beastlord unfortunately died an early death as he rolled 4 ones (5 attacks due to frenzy) when challenging the champion of an irongut unit that had charged him, lost combat due to banner and outnumber, and fled 4 inches.

My minotaurs saved the day, as my opponent (who isn't the brightest player at our LGS) allowed me to lure him into charge range with my warhounds and beast herds (though I payed for that when one of my big herds carrying a bray-shaman failed to rally and kept right on off the table.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Midaski on June 02, 2008, 05:01:56 PM
I see PhillyT has been having trouble printing his Beasts Army lists ...........

http://tupper62.multiply.com/video/item/46?category=CHINGLISH?xml=/news/2008/04/24/nogc124.xml?start=?xml=/news/2008/02/27/nspeed127.xml?itemid=8704#so8?in_article_id=92929&in_page_id=8?in_article_id=91228&in_page_id=2?c=petaundsx8?v=qLa4jjEG_74?v=VFN8HV_20IE

 :icon_wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on June 02, 2008, 05:04:04 PM
Man that was funny... and looked scarily like my cat  :laugh:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Hooch on June 02, 2008, 09:27:26 PM
I literally laughed out loud at that.  :biggriin:

Where do you all find these things?

Hooch
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on June 03, 2008, 08:34:57 AM
Midaski, your attempts at disturbing beastial discussions are just too funny to not be appreciated!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Midaski on June 03, 2008, 10:52:00 AM
Well following "Chaos theory" ...........

..... behold the power of the Imperial Butterfly

http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3086250900100115447pqDrrZ?category=CHINGLISH?xml=/news/2008/04/24/nogc124.xml?start=?xml=/news/2008/02/27/nspeed127.xml?itemid=8704#so8?in_article_id=92929&in_page_id=8?in_article_id=91228&in_page_id=2?c=petaundsx8?v=qLa4jjEG_74?v=VFN8HV_20IE

 :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on June 03, 2008, 03:34:02 PM
wow, i want to be a butterfly too!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on June 03, 2008, 06:17:05 PM
Awww... I still can't see that stuff until I get in town where the fast internet lives.


:(

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: skinkslayer on June 10, 2008, 11:26:50 AM
Hwo would this list do?
I am thinking the Beastlord would join the Bestigors, the Shamans in each big herd and the wargor in one of the smaller ambushing ones.
This is my first Beastman list; tell me how it looks.
2.000

Beastlord, Crown of Horns, Rune of the True Beast, great weapon, the Dark Heart and heavy armour. 195 points
Bray Shaman, goretooth, dispel scroll, braystaff and level 2. 164 points
Bray Shaman, Staff of Darkoth, dispel scroll and level 2. 160
Wargor, extra hand weapon, chaos armour. 74 points

18 Bestigors, full commad, warbanner. 271 points
1 Tuskgor chariot. 85 points
1 Tuskgor chariot. 85 points
5 Warhounds. 30 points
5 Warhounds. 30 points
5 Warhounds. 30 points
5 Warhounds. 30 points
5 Warhounds. 30 points
3 Minotaurs, great weapons, light armour and bloodkine. 167 points
3 Minotaurs, great weapons, light armour. 147 points
Beastherd, 12 gors, 8 ungors, full command. 163 points
Beastherd, 12 gors, 6 ungors, full command. 155 points
Beastherd, 6 gors, 5 ungors. 62 points
Beastherd, 6 gors, 5 ungors. 62 points

1 Chaos Spawn. 60 points

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on June 11, 2008, 03:33:19 AM
Well I posted my Beasts vs Empire battle report in the Imperial Office. Couldn't make up my mind where to put it what with wanting to link it to this and to my terrain making blog. It's the Battle of Sturngrad.

Skinkslayer, I'm still new to composing beasts lists but from what I usually see Philly saying, he'd want you to lessen the gors in those herds and maybe up the ungors. Course he always wants more chariots too  :wink:. Seems like a cool list to me though. I used the crown of horns in the battle mentioned above and it turned out trumps.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on June 11, 2008, 12:18:51 PM
Mmmmm...  chariots.

I like the list, and I can understand the compulsion to to use 12 gor and 8 ungor, since thats what GW gives you to work with.   But the cost can be cut very well by reducing the quantities to 9, making units of 17, which is the generally accepted ideal (though most people use 8 gor and 9 ungor rather than the other way around).

More chariots never hurt, and the Crown of Horns is the new armor of damnation.  But you MUST use the slaughterers blade.  It is the best weapon on our list and one of the best in the game for its point cost.  Drop the rune of the true beast.  To situational.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 14, 2008, 01:33:54 AM
For a tournament tomorrow. I wished to make a bloodthirsty list.

Beastlord
Mark of Khorne, Slaughterer's Blade, Crown of Horns, Pelt of the Dark Young, Heavy Armor

Wargor
Mark of Khorne, Dark Heart, Chaos Armor, Scimitar of Skultar, Shield

Bray-Shaman
Level 2, Staff of Darkoth, Dispel Scroll

Bray-Shaman
Level 2, Goretooth, Dispel Scroll, Braystaff

Beast Herd
9 Gors, 8 ungors, AHW, Full Command

Beast Herd
9 Gors, 8 ungors, AHW, Full Command

Beast Herd
5 Gors, 5 ungors, AHW, Foe-Render, Musician

Beast Herd
5 Gors, 5 ungors, AHW, Foe-Render, Musician

5 Warhounds

5 Warhounds

Tuskgor Chariot
Mark of Khorne

Tuskgor Chariot
Mark of Khorne

4 Minotaurs
Mark of Khorne, Great Weapons

4 Minotaurs
Mark of Khorne, Great Weapons

Chaos Giant

Spawn of Khorne

Spawn of Khorne

Total: 2247


I know the marks on the chariots could be a whole other chariot, but I wanted to maintain fluff. I also like to keep my Mino units to 4, as this works best for me, personally. The giant is for fun, as is the Mark of Khorne. Most of the people I play against will easily take advantage of this mark.

Other thoughts?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on June 14, 2008, 02:43:08 AM
Spawn of Khorne.... has a certain ring to it.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on July 13, 2008, 07:32:44 PM
GW has confirmed that they are working on the Beastman book and that it will be out shortly.  It is pretty much a guarentee that the book will be here for 2009.  Plastic Minotaur are also confirmed, though I am hoping for plastic bestigor.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Qrab on July 13, 2008, 09:57:32 PM
Where'd you hear/read that, Philly?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on July 13, 2008, 10:52:19 PM
Qrab lives!

It was either on Warseer (I think that was where it was) or Da Waaagh Path.  I was crawling on both last night and it was rather late.

In case I wrote it in a confusing fashion, they implied the BoC book would be here by the end of 2009, not by 2009 itself.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on July 13, 2008, 11:11:17 PM
i keep wanting to paint my beastmen again, but forgot the colour scheme... guess I should trawl through this thread and find it.

Nice find for the new book. I havent actually played a game yet... maybe I wont buy too much until it comes out.
I guess it still is quite a wait.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on July 14, 2008, 01:44:46 AM
Plastic Minotaurs? It's like all my dreams are coming true! (except plastic hydras and dark riders... and plastic bestigor...)

Wonder if they'll do plastic chaos hounds... if not I guess I'll just stick to buying dire wolves... the unfortunate thing is (as I noticed in my last game) I call them dire wolves over and over again even if I am looking up their stats and reading chaos hounds...

I'm still a little bit scared what they might do to us beasts... but it seems they might be being kind to the dark elves so maybe we'll get lucky...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on July 14, 2008, 01:50:32 AM
I am pretty sure they have already confirmed plastic hounds for the mortals release in November.  I don't know if they can look any better than the awesome ones we have for pewter.  Plus, they are still likely to be $22 for 10 or so.

:(

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on July 17, 2008, 04:25:20 AM
Better than $50 for 5
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on July 23, 2008, 09:44:47 PM
Finally got round to checking this thread for my colour scheme to paint some more beasts.

I had done the first two coats of the flesh then found my Khemri brown was dried up....
"Well never mind" I thought, I will just do the fur and weapons and everything first and add the final dry brush when I buy some paint.
Wacked open my Adeptus battleray to fo the fur and it was dry too.

At this point I gave up for the night.

curse you *shakes fist*
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on July 24, 2008, 11:56:51 AM
Sad news fellow Minotaurs.

I have decided to box up and pack away all my chaos mortal and beasts models.  Until new rules come out they are simply not viable armies for me to use.   :-(
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on July 24, 2008, 12:05:44 PM
I have done the same.  They are simply a broken list currently.  Ah well, thats why we have multiple armies.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on July 24, 2008, 12:12:08 PM
At the moment my financial and painting resources are being focused on my eldar army :)

I have enough fantasy armies, all of which I am more or less happy with their content.  Just need to paint them now I guess.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on July 24, 2008, 03:03:04 PM
Then it falls to me to hold up the league of Minotaurs? Very well. I shall!

I didn't have any problems with just using the beasts book for my last battle... but then my brother didn't take any cannons... and really played a very weird army choice... so maybe I just got lucky. How else are they broken aside from not having access to the Mortal items and whatnot? Just out of curosity?

I just finished my hounds a few days ago so here they are for some visual interest  :-P

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/ChaosHounds.jpg)





(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/ChaosHoundLeader.jpg)


Ogres on the way to being painted!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on July 24, 2008, 04:14:49 PM
Very nice dire wolfs :)

Much better than the plastic very old wolfs I have been using for my chaos hounds.

My problem isn't actually with beasts, its a problem with mortals.  My beasts were bought to suppliment my mortal army which they can no longer do.  The composition was such it is pretty much impossible to field a chaos army that I would want to use from either of the current lists.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on July 24, 2008, 05:56:40 PM
yesssss, I found a new pot of adeptus battlegray, and managed to fix my khemri brown with adding water- Should have my chariot crew done my tonight, or tomorrow at the latest!

By the time i finish painting everything I have, the new book will be out.

and nice hounds  :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on July 24, 2008, 06:10:54 PM
Good to hear your paints are back in order... looking forward to updated piccys  8-)

I know Philly was saying something about beasts being bad though right now... I thought it was to do with magic items mainly but I might be wrong...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on July 24, 2008, 09:54:33 PM
well the first ever 2000+ points game I played was at the euro bash, so the actual rules arent really a problem as I have never found anyone cool to play!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on July 24, 2008, 11:05:47 PM
It isn't really the rules, with the addition of marked chariots the rules are actually better than ever.  It is the lose of 75% of our best magic items.  The list was built with those items in mind, leaving us to struggle with the total lack of enchanted items (which needs to be addressed) and the absence of some of the more important staple items in the game (ie good armors, ward saves, and reactive items).

Plus I am neck deep in 40k Orcs...  awesome...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on July 25, 2008, 09:11:22 PM
Finished my crews.
Not too pleased with them, but hey ho. Wasn't really sure what to do with the elf head.

I also did the chariots themselves, but as I was doing the tuskgor's tusks I found it hard to focus, so I am going to stop painting for the night.

Pictures tomorrow when it is light again.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: curse on August 01, 2008, 08:03:25 PM
I can't seem to find the "Beastmen Quarterly" Swimsuit edition I commented on earlier. I was sure it was in this thread somewhere. :icon_confused:
Oh well, I'll keep on looking, I know its around here somewhere :icon_lol:

Do you remember Miss Gorgust. Now her guns were really Meaty :icon_wink:

Back on topic. Has there been any leaked pictures of Plastic minotaurs yet on the net?
I hope they have hoofed feet. I can't stand the the man footed minotaurs, they just seem so wrong; If that term can be applied to a gigantic half Bull-half man monster that is.




Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on August 01, 2008, 08:38:47 PM
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P270708_1307.jpg)
Dark picture of my two chariots.

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P270708_131601.jpg)

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P270708_131701.jpg)

I didn't like having to paint the elf head. Wish I was good at conversions so I could get rid of it!

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P270708_1316.jpg)

(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/P270708_1317.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on August 01, 2008, 10:05:30 PM
I didn't like having to paint the elf head.

But it's a dead elf, and therefore a good elf.

Like the beastmen! Can't see the chariots properly.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on August 01, 2008, 10:11:38 PM
It's stupid.
I can just imagine them kitting up before battle.
"right, I've roped the Tuskgors to the chariot, picked up my oversized axe... I'm missing something though"

I actually like my beastmen. When (if) I ever get a full army painted up they will look very nice on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 02, 2008, 12:34:20 PM
The rest of that bestigor is fantastic though.  A great sculpt.  I love how thick they make thme through the middle.  very beasty.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on August 02, 2008, 02:00:55 PM
With one of my charioteers I just used a saw to take the arm holding the elf head off at the shoulder. I replaced it with a regular Gor arm, and only needed to add a little bit of green stuff fur to hide the joint. Simple, but effective.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on August 02, 2008, 02:44:08 PM
I admit heads can get a little boring from time to time... but then sometimes I add them too... if I can't think of anything else to do with a hand. I think if I get another beast chariot (which probably depends if they are core anymore) I will convert the guy to be holding something else cos that'd be just too many looky likey things which I don't like. I really like our chariot though, the tuskgors are mean, the crew are nicely dynamic and the chariot itself is simple.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 02, 2008, 03:01:49 PM
Indications are that they will not be core, but might  be 2 for 1 specials.  Regardless, it will suck.

Then again, it may mean that they will need to make the list more versitile, which would be a good thing.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on August 02, 2008, 04:55:56 PM
Arrggg...

So what will we have for core?

Surely they'd have to switch something over... like minotaurs... or centigors... I suppose I could handle 2 for 1 special if one of the current specials is core-d. But if not... I'm a gonna have the same problem I have with 6th ed Druchii... too many cool specials that I have to leave most of them out  :-(.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on August 04, 2008, 01:10:35 PM
That's rubbish.

At least I dont have as many chariots as you do philly!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 04, 2008, 09:08:39 PM
Well, if they make it like the orcs, then chariots won't count as selections if they are character mounts.  Thats good for 3 chariots.  Then, if I am using a Doombull, then minotaur are core, so that leaves all of the specials open, meaning there might still be room for 11 chariots counting the 3 characters.

Dunno, could still suck.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on August 05, 2008, 03:10:31 AM
Doombulls should be able to ride Shaggoths.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on August 05, 2008, 06:03:51 AM
Doombulls are able to shag a goth ride!  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on August 05, 2008, 10:18:02 AM
Shaggoth lords should be able to have magic items.  Preferably weapons and armour.  Doom bulls should be able to take full magic item kit not just weapons, unless they intend on giving them a decent selection of usable magic weaponry.

Core of herds, bestigor and not counting hounds is not going to make a strong army IMO.  They will be very weak without the chariots and/or mortal/daemon units.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on August 05, 2008, 10:42:57 AM
I think they really need to get rid of the name 'Shaggoth.' What were they thinking?  :icon_eek:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on August 05, 2008, 11:12:26 AM
GW doesn't think, it does.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Warlord on August 05, 2008, 11:37:57 AM
I don't think Core centigors would break the army if they make chariots special.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on August 05, 2008, 12:40:33 PM
Isnt Shaggoth taken from HP lovecrafts Shogoths?   My guess is yes it is, along with all the elder gods stuff that features in the backgrounds...

Beastmen need plastic bestigor if chariots are moving away from core.  Preferably standard core plastic minotaurs too  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on August 05, 2008, 12:49:31 PM
You know, I'd take a switch up between core chariots and centigors... probably... though it might mean I'd have to try mounting my general in a chariot or something so I could get an extra one... though as my brother proved to me last battle... he won't last long in there...

Plastic bestigor would be lovely. Then I could actually start getting some...

Plastic minos would be equally as lovely...

Shaggoth lords who could take magic items and stuff... now we're talking... hopefully GW have seen what works from this time and might make some of the things more viable to use... though that is asking a lot  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on August 05, 2008, 01:10:37 PM
While we are at it, all gors should get their second wound returned to them.  Might make them more viable.

As beasts as a stand alone army are not considered top tier and do not tend to win tourneys, expect them to have a huge power boost by the games workshop pendulum swinging in thier favour!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on August 05, 2008, 02:30:33 PM
Quote from: Crimsonsphinx
Isnt Shaggoth taken from HP lovecrafts Shogoths?

I have no idea, but I do know that 'Shogoth' sounds a hell of a lot better than 'Shaggoth.' 'Shaggoth' just makes me think of Austin Powers. I shudder at the very idea of saying it out loud - "this is my Shaggoth."  :icon_eek:


While we are at it, all gors should get their second wound returned to them.  Might make them more viable.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

I hate multi-wound infantry. More than anything!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 05, 2008, 02:42:52 PM
Shoggoth in all their spellings were the creation of the ELder Things from Antartica and appeared in one of the best HP novelles, In the Mountains of Madness.

Plastic minotaur are already confirmed and the doombull is returning with the ability to take core minotaur by all accounts.

Multiwound infantry is a no go.  Too expensive, too wonky.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on August 05, 2008, 02:55:27 PM
Shoggoth in all their spellings were the creation of the ELder Things from Antartica and appeared in one of the best HP novelles, In the Mountains of Madness.

I've read two Lovecraft stories (The Dunwich Horror and The Haunter in the Dark), and I thought they were pretty dreadful really. His prose is horrible.  :icon_confused:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 05, 2008, 03:06:30 PM
Sometimes, but his later stuff was great.  Still, not for everyone.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on August 05, 2008, 03:07:44 PM
Which are the good ones?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Gneisenau on August 05, 2008, 03:15:38 PM
Strange - I would have thought that you like his work, rufus.

The Dunwich Horror is definitely not good. I could list some stories I've found better, but I have to dig up their original names, rather than the translated ones, to be of use.

Lovecraft has some very good ideas, and is able of creating disgust with his language, an ability I find rather nice to have. However, I agree that his stories are often too long-stretched, most notable in the "Call of Chtulhu".

He was apparently a misogynist racist on top, but that's a whole different issue.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on August 05, 2008, 03:44:55 PM
I really liked the Case of Charles Dexter Ward.  It is so far my favourite story, although I am working at reading them all, in more or less chronological order.

My second favourite is In the Mountains of Madness which does indeed have shogoths :)

Typical GW stealing ideas from someone else eh!

If multiwound infantry are too difficult, how come multi wound infanty feature pretty much across the whole ogre list with no problems.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on August 05, 2008, 09:20:43 PM
Quote from: Gneisenau
Strange - I would have thought that you like his work, rufus.

Maybe I haven't read the right ones. But unless he confined the tortured prose to the ones I've read, I don't think I'd be that keen. He just seems like a sub-Edgar Allen Poe to me.


If multiwound infantry are too difficult, how come multi wound infanty feature pretty much across the whole ogre list with no problems.

They are not infantry. They are big things on big bases. Normal-sized infantry with two wounds are just nasty and messy. Good riddance to them!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 06, 2008, 01:30:46 AM
Case of Charles Dexter Ward is probably his best, and I agree, Mountains of madness is the second best.  Call of Cthulhu is awesome, as are the Dreamlands stories, though they are very different from the other books (takes place in the dreamworld - but reveals alot about the Cthulhu mythos).  The Innsmouth one is great too, someone help me out, whats the name?

EDIT:  Shadow over Innsmouth. 

Even then, you need to be into them to really enjoy them.  It is very much a love it or hate it thing. 

And no, we don't need 2 wound gor again.  I like their current mechanic, they just need to fix some things to make the list a bit more competitive (as in, return some good magic items and let us take enchanted items).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on August 06, 2008, 05:12:42 AM
And they should lose the Skirmisher rule when they rank up!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on August 06, 2008, 09:05:23 AM
A full rank bonus would be nice once you reach combat, as well as deciding how wide they go :)  None of this no ranks rubbish against chariots.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 06, 2008, 11:24:03 AM
Yeah, the 4 wide rank thing is a nearly unforgivable oversight, ans something GW should have addressed realistically rather than just saying "They get alot of other benefits too you know."

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on August 06, 2008, 01:24:31 PM
I've posted a lot of this stuff on some other site but I'll mention what I think they should do here again.

1- Give herd the option of EHW, GW, or LA/SH.  This would let herds become true core infantry, and fill in all kinds of other roles as well.
2- Let ungors by throwing spears.  Gives small herds a harassment ability as well as making it more dangerous for lightly armored cavalry to charge them.
3- Give Bestigors shields and GWs, knock their points down to about ten, and give them the option to become raiders at around +4 points.
4- Hounds should basically become the hounds from the old Ulric list.  (no panic, move through woods, fast cavalry) but not count as core minimum.
5- Move centigors to core and give them the option to become fast cavalry or take heavy armor for a few more points.  Fast/medium cav in one unit entry!
6- I don't think chariot should move to special, but should require a herd per chariot.
7- LEAVE THE MINOTAURS ALONE!!
8- Add some more specialized Special units (scouting gors, a unit with bray staves, a monstrous chariot).  I have ideas, but nothing concrete.
9- Make Shaggoths worth taking at all.
10- Fix psychology issues for herds.  This constitutes another entire post...
11- Add more cheap banners and fill in the magic item list!
12- Fix the ranking up "issue" in the Raiders rule



Pyre
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 06, 2008, 01:32:37 PM
What about the leadership issues?  Due you think it is still reasonible to have LD8 for beastlords?

I can see the argument, but as a stand alone, I would like to see the LD addressed.

I agree with all of your suggestions, but are you still for mixed herds?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on August 06, 2008, 01:44:37 PM
Now, we're next right? Or was there something coming along before us? I forget now in all the excitement about Druchii...


I like your ideas Pyre. Like the idea especially about having little ungor throwing spear units... sounds fluffy to me and seeing as chaos is all split now, it doesn't seem altogether unreasonable that we could have a little light shooting now... chaos mortals can shoulder the pain of no missile weapons, makes more sense for them. Slings, throwing spears and thrown axes would work a treat for our guys.

I also kinda like your chariot to a herd idea... though maybe it could be a herd or a bestigor unit otherwise it's kinda forcing people to eitehr go herd/chariot or not have them at all... I don't know... but I prefer it to specials!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on August 06, 2008, 03:54:06 PM
What about the leadership issues?  Due you think it is still reasonible to have LD8 for beastlords?

I can see the argument, but as a stand alone, I would like to see the LD addressed.

I agree with all of your suggestions, but are you still for mixed herds?

Phil

The way I've been running recently I don't really rely on my characters to do much of anything, and I kind of like it.  The idea of the Beastlord unleashing the ambush, but not really being the focus once the battle starts, also seems cool and really different.  So I'd suggest the following:

Bestial Discipline: All units that contain Gors (including centigors and chariots) gain a +1 Leadership for all psychology and rally tests for each banner within twelve inches, excluding their own.  This cannot grant a leadership greater than ten.

The idea being to make herds more stable in general without making them unbreakable.  The requirement of a banner means that chariot spam armies can benefit from it, but cannot be the center since they cannot carry a banner (except a BSB).  It also make bait and flee tactics not just viable but integral to the list since rallying and avoiding panic becomes MUCH easier.  An additional bonus: there's a real reason to take standards in a herd.  With this in place and the addition of javelins (or whatever) to ungors in herds, an army with actual beastmen in it becomes more viable.

Also I am very much in favor of mixed herds, and think that's one of the big thing that makes BoC unique.


Pyre

...more in a few

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on August 06, 2008, 05:05:52 PM
really good and interesting ideas pyre.
Why dont they hire randomers to design rule books, instead of their own rubbish designers.

Although I do think Bestial discipline is not a great idea, as it encourages massive centres of the army, instead of a more spread out feel which comes from the raider rule. Perhaps also it is a little over powered.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on August 06, 2008, 05:53:23 PM
Now, we're next right? Or was there something coming along before us? I forget now in all the excitement about Druchii...


I like your ideas Pyre. Like the idea especially about having little ungor throwing spear units... sounds fluffy to me and seeing as chaos is all split now, it doesn't seem altogether unreasonable that we could have a little light shooting now... chaos mortals can shoulder the pain of no missile weapons, makes more sense for them. Slings, throwing spears and thrown axes would work a treat for our guys.

I also kinda like your chariot to a herd idea... though maybe it could be a herd or a bestigor unit otherwise it's kinda forcing people to eitehr go herd/chariot or not have them at all... I don't know... but I prefer it to specials!

I don't really see forcing people into using herds as a bad thing, as long as the herds themselves are worth using.  I could see putting bestigors in there as well though, if you're looking for a more elite feel.  I'd like to see chariots become a compliment to herds, not herds simply being meat shields so that the chariots get there safely.  As for shooting, yeah I like the feel of the thrown weapons, but really want to stay away from anything like bows or war machines.


Although I do think Bestial discipline is not a great idea, as it encourages massive centres of the army, instead of a more spread out feel which comes from the raider rule. Perhaps also it is a little over powered.

The real idea behind the rule would be to allow herds and other units to be used more on the flanks, rather than bunching up in the middle.  Consider this, at current any beastman unit (i.e. herds, chariots, bestigors, etc) that want better than a seven leadership must stay within the 12" bubble of the general.  That is bunching up, and that means only the monstrous units (minotaurs, giants, DOs) can really swing wide onto the flanks where not even they are all that reliable.  Now with the Bestial Discipline rule you could put two herds and a unit of light centigors on a flank and they could have an eight leadership for psychology tests and possibly a nine depending on how many banners you wanted to risk.  Give one herds HW and SH, and the other GW and they're mutually supporting.  There you have a great little flanking force without characters.

As for overpowered... not sure really.  It doesn't look it to me since it means herds still break at he drop of a hat in combat, and doing so costs the banner that gave them the bonus in the first place.  To me that plays well into the "win big or loose big" way of combat BoC seems to lean toward.  However, as with all rules, it should be play tested.


Pyre

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on August 06, 2008, 08:53:01 PM
Well....


I'd take strength 4 any day.  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on August 09, 2008, 11:45:46 AM
Any recommended Beast site? I need to know since some people have recommended beats as my next army due to my playing style and preferences.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 09, 2008, 11:56:41 AM
The herdstone is okay... well actually it sucks, but its about the only one that is consistant.

Kuh Tathor's Beast Horde was awesome back in the day.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on August 09, 2008, 12:02:44 PM
This thread is the best beasts forum on the net  :-P  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Velead on August 09, 2008, 01:08:05 PM
I've taken an interest in Beastmen recently. So I've been looking about for forums, and I have to say, Mathi, Siberius is pretty spot on there.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on August 09, 2008, 06:09:50 PM
Oh... then I need to look no further! :icon_mrgreen:

Well, thing is, like I said, I was recommended beasts and I must admit the idea of a raiders army that can make real ambushes have felt very appealing on occasions.
Now, when I have been pushed over the treshhold of only doing good armies, I feel that a winterthemed beastmen army would be exellent pair on a shelf with my winterthemed asrais.

I know the beasts are in a deplorable state at the moment, but then, you cannot say they are cheese. So I am thinking of getting the book and getting really dirty and bitter and with general feeling of hatred against all others, including the stuckup warriors and daemons of chaos.  :icon_razz:

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: curse on August 09, 2008, 10:26:26 PM
I was thinking for the leadership issue, that instead of bolstering stats or new rules, to include low cost enchanted items in the magic list that confer leadership bonuses and abilities much like the crown of horns and horn of the great hunt do currently. Some examples off the top of my head could be as below.

Eye of fury 25pts character with raiders rule only
One use only. Once per battle, at the start of any of his own turns, the bearer may use the eye. The character (and the unit he is with) gain frenzy until the end of the next turn (unless lost through combat resolution as per normal Frenzy rules). The benefits can only be passed on to a unit with the raiders rule.

Challengers Heart 35pts
The Challengers Heart gives the bearer +1 leadership, The Bearer must always accept challenges.

Challengers Horn 40 pts Beastlord or Wargor General only
The Challengers Horn increase the range of the generals leadership from 12" to 18".

Hoof of shadows 40 pts
Bound spell (Power level 4 or 5?). Usual blurb about how bound spells work. The hoof of shadows contains the Shades of Death spell from the Lore of shadow. 
(I don't know if this will over power nurgle characters/units or if that would just be a nice benefit. Actually for Pestigors it might make taking them worthwhile.)

These are just some ideas I thought of now. Obviously the points values may be off but it would depend on how the rest of the army book was structured of course. I don't think they are too overpowered, but they provide a bit of bite and help with the leadership issues beastmen have.
What do you guys think? They don't have to be all enchanted items of course, but maybe placed in certain categories and costed appropriately so that you have to weigh up defensive items or offensive items vs leadership support.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: patsy02 on August 09, 2008, 11:04:26 PM
Quote
10- Fix psychology issues for herds.  This constitutes another entire post...
Out of personal experience I can say that beastmen LD is in severe need of fixing. One of my games against beastmen was a 2500pts friendly game. In turn two I killed his giant with a cannon ball. All three units close to the giant fled in each their direction and into through 2-3 friendly units each, panicking about 1500 points and 3 characters off the board. I really like pyre's idea.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on August 10, 2008, 11:09:30 AM
I know the beasts are in a deplorable state at the moment, but then, you cannot say they are cheese. So I am thinking of getting the book and getting really dirty and bitter and with general feeling of hatred against all others, including the stuckup warriors and daemons of chaos.  :icon_razz:



If you are just starting up at the moment too there are probably some safe units you can get now and not be too worried they are going to drop so you can always make a start and then when the new army book comes out modify a little accordingly.

I can't remember when they are supposed to be being overhauled but I feel like it's not too far away...



And curse, the only problem I can see with having a +1 LD item is that it will be so useful, won't everyone take it?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 10, 2008, 11:33:50 AM
And curse, the only problem I can see with having a +1 LD item is that it will be so useful, won't everyone take it?

Yes, that would be the case.

Shifting to LD 9 wouldn't break the army, though I can see them leaving the LD at 8 for the beastlord.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on August 10, 2008, 02:08:30 PM
I mean, there is in theory nothing wrong with having low leadership armies... if they can compensate somehow. If everyone had high ld it would be a little boring in some ways... but maybe there could be something to help not entirely cripple with it.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: curse on August 11, 2008, 06:51:13 AM

And curse, the only problem I can see with having a +1 LD item is that it will be so useful, won't everyone take it?

True. Maybe it should of been closer to 55-60 pts. It is a bit naff, but it is hard thinking of effective leadership bonus's that are unique.
I just had another idea, what if it bolstered leadership by +2 for 1 turn only (this modified leadership can only benefit the unit the character is in; it can not be passed on by the general as per the usual rules)?

I really like the idea of ungors with throwing spears. That would be fun, especially when they ambush behind enemy lines.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on August 11, 2008, 09:25:14 AM
I'm afriad with the current re do of beasts coming up, I'm going to have to abandon them.

Once I have finished painting my 18 great swords, I am going to do an all mounted/monstrous DE force. Hopefully this will be completely different from my Empire, and when beasts come out again, beasts army.

I'm hoping this all mounted army will be cheap, and quick to paint/
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on August 11, 2008, 09:39:14 AM
I am going to do an all mounted/monstrous DE force. Hopefully this will be completely different from my Empire, and when beasts come out again, beasts army.

I'm hoping this all mounted army will be cheap, and quick to paint/

The dark riders are expensive, and have stupid-looking horses. Maybe you could use the tree pixie cavalry models instead.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 11, 2008, 10:38:55 AM
I have a friend doing the gladerider conversion thing.  Much cheaper and just as good.  A few torso and head swaps and they look fine.

As for dropping them for a mounted DE force, no they aren't that much different from Empire.  Great shooting,. medium magic, and core cavalry with LD8 means a similar play style to all knight Empire armies.

Why ditch the beasts?  You'll be sorry when the new book comes out.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on August 11, 2008, 11:10:53 AM
I have a friend doing the gladerider conversion thing.  Much cheaper and just as good.  A few torso and head swaps and they look fine.

As for dropping them for a mounted DE force, no they aren't that much different from Empire.  Great shooting,. medium magic, and core cavalry with LD8 means a similar play style to all knight Empire armies.

Why ditch the beasts?  You'll be sorry when the new book comes out.

Phil
buy glade riders and stick on DE heads?
Well i wont be taking much shooting in an all mounted force, and plan to go fairly magic heavy, something I have never done with Empire. Nor have I played all knight Empire, so it should be fairlu different to my combined arms Empire.

I'm not ditching them, I just dont want to paint lots of chariots for example, only to find we can't use that many. Or paint lots of Ungors then find out they take out mixed herds, etc.
The plan is to finish the DE army before the new Beasts book is released.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on August 11, 2008, 01:04:49 PM
buy glade riders and stick on DE heads?

That should work, though you will probably need crossbows from somewhere.

Magic. Yuk. Get a dragon instead!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on August 11, 2008, 01:59:56 PM
Beasts don't really need a leadership fix, they need a psychology fix.  Right now we work just fine once we get into close combat: we win big and they run or we loose big and we run.  It works because we have so many cheap heavy hitters, so to boost leadership too much would mean either we have to loose some of the hard hitting units or they have to get more expensive.  I mean think of it this way: if herds can have a good chance of staying in combat even when loosing, then the chariots and bestigors and giants and centigors and minotaurs and dragon ogres all have easier counter charges.  All those units can hit with strength 5+ with multiple attacks and none are usually more than 225 pts or so... most are cheaper.  I consistently put multiple units of minotaurs and centigors on the board with a giant, dragon ogres, and three chariots.  With leadership nine all I need is a couple of wounds to hang around AFTER getting charged, and then I don't care what unit charged me.

As for the items, I don't want to be offensive but I don't like the idea at all.  Any time an army has to take magic items to function, there's something wrong there.  I like the items themselves as a whole, though as has already been said the Heart may be a no brainer type item (maybe limit it to great bray shamans to make them more able generals), but I'd rather see a real fix for the Beasts instead of something that feels like a quick fix.

To Mathi, actually now might be a good time to start collecting some of the more mainstay units since some people are going to be jumping ships and selling models.  Chariots are still a good idea, just don't buy too many.  Minotaurs are a requirement, though I personally HATE the GW ones.  Tactics wise there is one change from the asrai: everything is cheap and expendable.  I've sacrificed two units to kill one and come out far ahead in the VPs more than once.

Pyre
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on August 11, 2008, 06:01:16 PM
buy glade riders and stick on DE heads?

That should work, though you will probably need crossbows from somewhere.

Magic. Yuk. Get a dragon instead!
How about Magic and a dragon?

I've never gone magic heavy. Might be interesting. And hopefully will counteract not having much shooting.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 11, 2008, 07:03:06 PM
You can actually get alot of shooting from Dark Riders, and you need to take them.  The army isn't strong enough to try and dominate CC.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on August 11, 2008, 07:08:32 PM
I was thinking more token shooting with the Dark riders, and try to dominate magic, and use cold ones and monsters for killing things.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 09, 2008, 04:45:05 PM
So yeah, I smashed some DE ass the other day with the ol' beasts!  It was a risky list but the break down was as follows:

4th level Bray Shaman Slaanesh
2nd level shaman slaanesh
2nd level shaman slaanesh
1 Wargor BSB

Core:
8 gor, 9 ungor - full command
8 gor, 9 ungor - full command
8 gor, 9 ungor - full command
8 gor, 9 ungor - full command
7 chariots - mark of khorne

Special:
4 Minotaur - GW, mark of khorne
4 Minotaur - GW, mark of khorne

Rare:
2 Giants - not mutant monstrosities


The chariots piled across the table with the minotaur and giants leading the way.  They all took the shooting like ItP champions.  The shaman sort of sprinted in with the BSB, staying out of shooting lanes.  2nd turn, two beast herds came in where tey needed too, and two came in off to the sides, but not out of the game.  The shamans and BSB's immediately ran towards them, while the two that came in where they needed too got into position to charge and kill.  Turn 3 was a slaughter, with too many chariots ready to charge, and the two herds that ambushed spread across the back of his deployment to prevent fleeing (auto killed if they did) he was forced to take a bunch of BAD charges.  The BSB reached one of the units that didn't come inot the back field, one 2nd level joined the other, while I burnt power stones off blasting everything with the lord.  The combat phase was carnage.  Turn 4 was a continuation, with the game basically coming to an end.  The DE's gave up when all that was left was some chariot chasings of the remnants.

The get you by list can still be used effectively.  Marking beast chariots is awesome when frenzied since it gives those tuskers 2 attacks each for a total of 6 S5 attacks between them and the bestigor.  The ungor even drops 2, so not bad either. All for just a hair more than 100 points.

Leadership is the armies biggest issue, but with 7 Itp chariots, and 2 giants, there isn't much that needs to test really.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on October 09, 2008, 05:22:03 PM
Damn, that's a nasty list!
I wonder if frenzy baiting would effect it, but I guess you want everything in combat asap anyway.

Do you feel a bit dirty taking magic and khorne?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on October 09, 2008, 05:51:54 PM
It does look a very unfluffy list, but thats how GW want us to play chaos now.

Playing daemons I got over rapidly the idea I should only have one god.  Thats 6th edition.  In 7th we all hold hands and dance around the fields together.

Not sure id have taken so many slaanesh mages, you want some death magic in there!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 09, 2008, 09:52:08 PM
Normally I would agree Crimson, but the level 1 spell for slannesh is still too good.  We really need those S6 hits.  Also, there was one chariot with the mark of slaanesh.  I forgot to note that.  I need to add it to make the army legal.

And yes, it was a bit unfluffy, but that was because I didn't feel like wasting 3 hours on a game that I felt was broken, given the difference between the neutered beast list and the brand new Dark Elf list.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on October 10, 2008, 03:32:24 AM
Neutered beasts is the way to go.

All my beasts are neutered now and with a few minor exceptions, have stopped peeing on the carpet.  8-)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on October 10, 2008, 02:40:45 PM
Who's your general Philly?  The only character not noted as being marked Slaanesh is the wargor BSB, but the Minotaurs are marked khorne.  Minotaurs have to take the mark of the general or none at all, or am I forgetting something?



Pyre
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 10, 2008, 09:03:10 PM
Yeah, we messed that up.  They should have had the mark of slaanesh.  We caught it at the end, but figured it wasn't as big of a deal as it mught seem (he hadn't taken much for magic, so the other two dice weren't as big a deal).

Nice catch though!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on October 12, 2008, 01:37:21 AM
At first I read the list and thought "hot damn that's a great list why didn't I think of it," then I looked at it again.   :eusa_wall:

If I had seven chariots I'd actually think about deploying something along those lines, though I'd probably only deploy a couple of big herds, some trash herds, hounds, and a unit of centigors if the points are there.  Congratulations for the victory though.  How effective was the lore in conjunction with the chariots?


Pyre
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 12, 2008, 11:04:38 AM
The lore of slaanesh is still my favorite one.  The S6 attacks are a huge help, taking out chariots and dragons if used right.  The paralyzing spell where the unit just stands there is killer for herds, who can then actually cause some significant damage to the enemy.  Delusions makes the enemy units turn a flank to a minotaur unit, which is my favorite tactic with them.  By having so many wizards, it affords plenty of power dice and opportunities to get all of the spells on the list.  Hopefully it remains intact or we get the same spell lists as Mortals.

The only problem with the list was I didn't have the shamans or BSB in units.  The characters sort of had to run along behind the chariots, out of sight of the enemy until their herds arrived.  This was okay, since if he was shooting at characters, he was letting two units of minotaur, 7 chariots, and 2 giants come to his line.

The herds were there purely for rank bonus and to prevent fleeing on turn 2 and 3.  I am not a fan of the large herd model, since I tend to use larger blocks of minotaur if I need something that will kill larger groups.  The herds mostly just take out soft points and assist the chariots, of which I have 12 but will probably be culling down since I seriously doubt they will let use keep them as core.  Incidently, are the chariots still core for chaos mortals?

The armies greatest flaw when I used it previously was dragons and such.  The only thing I could deal with a dragon with was the lashes of slaanesh, but its hard to get into range when the dragon keeps jumping around and entering combat.  I normally had to use my general armed with gaze of the gods, the slaughterers blade, and the armor of damnation.  He is nearly impossible to hit  then wound, and when he is wounded, he will get those wounds back by striking the dragon.  By challenging the dragon, you will keep the wounds off the unit and win everytime.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 21, 2008, 03:00:11 PM
So I am starting to get excited about beasts again.  I used a Minotaur army yesterday, led by the Doombull with the slaughterers blade.  I hope he can take better magic in the next edition...

The ability to mark chariots with khorne really shines with the minotaur list.  With 4 units of 4 minotaur (one with 3 plus the lord) and 4 chariots, you end up with a whopping 10 dispel dce, plus 3 more from wargor with the mark in units of herds.  That can be 13 dice.  Add the brutality of all those attacks, 16 S6 in the minotaur units, 4 S5 and 2 S4 from the chariots, and you have some serious combat potential.  Add the ability to drop the herds and you are seeing some offense.  Still, once again, large monsters are the most damaging thing for this list to face.  I did win, sweeping the ol' DE once again.  My list was vaguely:

1 Minotaur Lord with mark of khorne
3 Wargor with mark of khorne

3 units of 17 herds (9 ungor, 8 gor) with shields
3 units of 4 minotaur with great weapons and the mark of khorne
4 chariots with the mark of khorne
1 minotaur unit of 3 with GW and mark of khorne
2 Giants

I really had a hard time with the hydra... until I managed to get it into combat with my giant.  He thumped it with his club one turn, causing 7 wounds, which the hydra saved 3 of, and headbutted it in the next which took its attacks.  I then finished it in actual handto handcombat with yet another thump with club!  Honestly, the Giant is superior to the hydra most of thetime, though the hydra did deal 4 wounds to him.  The higher inititive of the giant and the very good large target chart for him means he will make the hydra flee 33% of the time with yell and bawl (LD6 test?  Sure.) Thump it against its horrid I2, or headbut it and have a 50% chance of removing its attacks for that turn.  THe handlers didn't really do much.  Now on the other hand, the second giant went down in a hail of xbow fire and RBT salvos.  One out of two ain't bad!

The lists strength was in its ability to get across the board retardedly fast.

EDIT:  I had 2 too many attacks for the chariot!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on October 21, 2008, 03:49:13 PM
So I am starting to get excited about beasts again. 

Sig, anybody ?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 22, 2008, 09:29:16 AM
Yeah, that really is good sig material...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on October 22, 2008, 12:24:13 PM
Yeah, that really is good sig material...

Phil

I shall oblige then.  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 26, 2008, 10:36:17 PM
Hey, anyone notice that they fixed the Beastlord model at Avatars of war?

http://www.avatars-of-war.com/hfaweb2mail/hfaweb2mail.php#mark_avatars (http://www.avatars-of-war.com/hfaweb2mail/hfaweb2mail.php#mark_avatars)

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on October 26, 2008, 10:44:20 PM
Hey, anyone notice that they fixed the Beastlord model at Avatars of war?

http://www.avatars-of-war.com/hfaweb2mail/hfaweb2mail.php#mark_avatars (http://www.avatars-of-war.com/hfaweb2mail/hfaweb2mail.php#mark_avatars)

Phil

Oooooh those are some shiny models......
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on October 26, 2008, 11:01:37 PM
Fixed him? I can't remember anymore what he used to be like.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 27, 2008, 01:06:41 AM
He has lots of stupid skulls on him, especially two wrapped around his horns.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 10, 2008, 12:51:07 AM
Hey all, I am writing a Beastman tactica for the Empire library!

Your input on how to help our Human brethren fight our beastial brethren will be very much appreciated!

http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=25894.0 (http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=25894.0)

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on December 10, 2008, 10:32:31 AM
Your input on how to help our Human brethren fight our beastial brethren will be very much appreciated!

Fire never fails.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 11, 2008, 06:52:58 PM
Hey everyone,

I just bought 4 boxes of the new Hounds.  They are actually pretty sweet looking.  They are a but more malevolent than the old ones, somehow more evil looking, but less messed up in terms of mutations.  PRetty nice and at a totally rockin' price!  I highly recommend!

And I bought another chariot.  I am addicted.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on December 11, 2008, 06:56:26 PM
Hey everyone,

I just bought 4 boxes of the new Hounds.  They are actually pretty sweet looking.  They are a but more malevolent than the old ones, somehow more evil looking, but less messed up in terms of mutations.  PRetty nice and at a totally rockin' price!  I highly recommend!

And I bought another chariot.  I am addicted.

Phil

4 boxes???

Isn't it 10 per box?  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 11, 2008, 07:12:48 PM
Well yeah, but thats still only 240 points!

240 points for 8 units of 5!  Think if the carnage!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on December 11, 2008, 07:18:23 PM
Well yeah, but thats still only 240 points!

240 points for 8 units of 5!  Think if the carnage!

Phil

That's what I was worried about.........
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 11, 2008, 10:47:38 PM
It isn't as bad as it seems, since they will mostly be used to facilitate ambushers.  If they are the ambushers, they are coming on the board with LD5.  Not good odds.  Likewise, they are panic causers with a bullet.  Easily paniced, and hard to rally, they can cause vast portions of the army to freak.

But they are so cheap and easy to field.  30 point units!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on December 12, 2008, 08:05:46 AM
Ah the hounds. I do love me some hounds.

But I have semi-officially given up getting any more stuff for my beasts until I know what we are likely to be facing in terms of our new army book.

With the strengthening of my Dark Elves and the gradual building of my Empire, they are going to have to be on the back burner somewhat till the new book. I fear that ogres might not be there anymore and after all the hard work I put in, that's a little heartbreaking. I do not wish anymore such incidents.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 12, 2008, 11:53:04 AM
I can see that.  But who wouldn't let you use your ogres as Minotaurs?

Back to the hounds:  The one issue I have is the tremendous gap running right down their middle.  They are split in two, sort of like horses.  THat makes for alot of greenstuff work to make the gap disappear.

Still, they remind me of the Death Dogs from Willow.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on December 12, 2008, 12:10:19 PM
Back to the hounds:  The one issue I have is the tremendous gap running right down their middle.  They are split in two, sort of like horses.  THat makes for alot of greenstuff work to make the gap disappear.

Do they? I wanted to get some to use as VC wolves (because the actual ones are the worst miniatures ever). But they don't stick together properly? Why not? The cold ones do. They are in four pieces each, and you can't see a join when they are stuck together.

If only everything was as perfect as the cold ones. They should sack everyone except the guy who made those.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 12, 2008, 12:19:21 PM
Well, it is most obvious along the bristled back, because I think they thought they would hid the gap by burying it in the fur.  But the fur is bisected by the the two halves and it is obvious to anyone looking.  It isn't that there is an actual gap because they don't fit snuggly, they do, it is the way they chose to try to hid the gap.  Let me get a picture of them.

They are still the best dog type model they have made.  I think they would make awesome VC wolves if you greenstuff the horn holes.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on December 12, 2008, 02:18:16 PM
Thanks for the information Philly. I might get some at some point.

It would be interesting to see a picture of them though (assembled but unpainted).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on December 12, 2008, 05:36:02 PM
I am hoping to use the ogres as extra minos if it comes to the loss of the ogres. They were near identical anyways, with a few minor differences. Course if they bring out some new beautiful mino minis then there could be trouble...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 12, 2008, 05:47:00 PM
I am hoping to use the ogres as extra minos if it comes to the loss of the ogres. They were near identical anyways, with a few minor differences. Course if they bring out some new beautiful mino minis then there could be trouble...

Well... new Minotaurs are ABSOLUTELY going to happen.  When they hocked all of their old minotaurs in the 25th anniversary army deals, you knew it was going to happen.  They have also mentioned it on warseer.  I just hope they are plastic!

I just lost power for 5 hours, so I put all of the hounds together.  I'll post a picture shortly.  I am trying to get GTA IV for PC installed and working.   :dry:

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on December 13, 2008, 09:09:24 AM
I hope they are plastic too. The fact that the new Krox were metal worries me a bit. But then, Minos are a much more integral part of the beasts set up, especially if they drop a load of the other stuff that was in WoC.

Started me off thinking last night. What might they bring in or invent to give beasts a bit more diversity back. It was tough to come up with anything but I couldn't help but wonder about a powered up unit of minos able to be taken as Special. Inner Core minos you could say.

I definately want more character variation. If all we have is Beastlords and Shamans, that's really gonna be a bit of a boring choice. Centigor heros and maybe mino heros that aren't doombulls would add interesting options, maybe something else a bit magical too. I just feel like if we lose all those units to WoC something is going to have to give to give us some flexability in our army because seems to me like there is a lot more choice in armies these days, certainly if Dark Elves and WoC books are anything to go by.

I'm kinda excited but also a little scared...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on December 13, 2008, 11:05:33 AM
What might they bring in or invent to give beasts a bit more diversity back.

I know what they need...

The return of the Jabberwock! It's a monster, it wiffles through the  tulgey woods, everybody loves it.


You know it makes sense.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on December 13, 2008, 11:22:39 AM
Are they to be plastic minotaurs though?  I quite like the current metal ones, I would be very upset if they made a horrible plastic kit that looked, well horrible and plasticy.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 13, 2008, 11:34:27 AM
If plastic minotaur are anything like the ogres, I think we will be fine.


As for new units, it's a tough sell.  I don't know what they will bring in.  Demon Princes will still be available most likely, and centigor heroes are possible, but a minotaur character would probably end up in the same boat as the ogre brusier.  Nobody would use it.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on December 13, 2008, 12:12:22 PM
Demon Princes would still be there?

I didn't know Demon Princes were an option right now  :?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 13, 2008, 12:23:05 PM
Well they aren't right now.  They did give them back to the WoC though, which would imply they might do the same for us.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on December 13, 2008, 12:39:08 PM
Well they aren't right now.  They did give them back to the WoC though, which would imply they might do the same for us.

Phil

They aren't beasts though... :?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 13, 2008, 11:39:44 PM
They aren't humans either.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on December 13, 2008, 11:41:45 PM
They aren't humans either.

Phil

They were human though.
Ever seen a Ex-Beast Daemon Prince?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 14, 2008, 02:16:50 AM
Could have been one.  Beastmen are equally capable of being the chosen of Chaos, like Gorthor was.  Why not one blessed with full demonhood?  They can become Chaos Spawn in the same manner as Mortals.  Nothing says they cannot become a prince.

Phil

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on December 14, 2008, 09:22:14 AM
I'm just hoping above all hope that it will still be viable to go undivided. Is it viable in the WoC book now? My whole army concept is based around that and it all of a sudden I have to take marks on every single thing I am gonna get a little sad.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on December 14, 2008, 11:02:50 AM
From my reading of the new warriors book, you can be any god you like, as god doesn't affect your magic item choice now, only what the mark brings you.

So it should be perfectly valid to be undivided if you so wish.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 14, 2008, 11:27:13 AM
The way they have moved with the fluff, undivided could simply be a lack of marks.  I don't think you need to take marks anyway.  The old Undivided mark is just gone.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on December 14, 2008, 02:45:54 PM
As that doesn't mean the army sucks (not taking any marks) then I am fine and dandy.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on December 15, 2008, 01:48:56 PM
In a lot of ways, it means you can choose the god you want, without being shafted if its magic items are not on par with say Khorne or Tzeench who usually get the best combat and spell aiding items.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on December 15, 2008, 11:10:33 PM
I'm a little confused by what you say.

I don't want to affiliate myself in any way with any of the gods and want to make sure that is viable.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 16, 2008, 12:13:11 AM
Just take the marks that work for you, and pretend they are not the marks they are.
It's your fluff.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on December 16, 2008, 09:41:42 AM
What I am saying is you can take a khorne axe, a slaanesh helmet etc all on a character who has a nurgle mark if you wish.  Or any such combination.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 22, 2008, 12:14:38 PM
Okay, so I am still working on the Tactica, but I am not getting alot of feedback on the Imperial board.  Here is what I have so far:

Units:

Core:

Beast herd:  Strong, versatile units and the mainstay of Beastman armies.  Able to be equipped with either shields or additional hand weapons, they can be used offensively or defensively.  Adding to their usefulness is their mixed nature, being made up of both gor and ungor.  With an average cost per model of 5.5 points, they can be fielded in large numbers.

While they must have a minimum of 5 gor and 5 ungor, additional models can be purchased for each type individually.  In their normal combat deployment, they will generally have 8 gor, then increasing numbers of ungor depending on their mission profile.  A common size is 8 gor and 9 ungor, for a total of 17 models.  Since both additional hand weapons and shields cost the same for the gor, additional hand weapons are far more common.  Ungor are forced to pay a point for their shields, meaning they are almost never seen.

Adding to the offensive power of the unit is the command squad.  Like orcs, the champions for Herds have a different profile from the rank and file.  The Foerender is the heart of the unit and always present.  The LD6 of the herd is mitigated by the LD7 of the Foerender, and his S4 gives the unit a much needed boost.  A unit striking a 5 wide unit of state troops will get 625mm beastmen into contact.  With additional hand weapons, this means 10 S3 WS4 attacks, and 3 S4 WS4 attacks.  This can cause considerable damage.  In the following rounds, the second rank will add 4 to 5 spear attacks, allowing for up to 15 S3 attacks and the additional S4’s from the foerender.

Chaos Hounds:  The fast moving core choice for Beasts, these MV7 US2 beasts are made for flanking and to be used in concert with the herds or chariots.  While they are WS and I 4, they are completely lacking in both offense and defense, with S3 and T3 with no AS.  They will rarely cause wounds.  This forces them into their flanking role, since they are not even capable of chasing off fast cavalry with any regularity.

Bestigor:  The most powerful of the Beastman infantry, the Bestigor offer a high WS 5, S and T of 4, and heavy armor and a great weapon.  Their high movement means they will often get the charge off.  Their relatively high leadership of 7 and the ability to mark one unit per army means they can be a fairly stable unit to build a battleline around.

The obvious downside of the unit is the lack of maneuverability compared to the rest of the army.  Bestigor are the slowest element, being incapable of moving faster that 5 and lacking the skirmish ability of the herds. While chariots are technically slower, their 360 degree movement makes up for the lack of pure M value.  Minotaur and giants have a higher M6, meaning bestigor are forced to slog it slowly to the front.  This coupled with their high cost make them an unpopular choice in beastman armies.

Chariots:  The ubiquitous chariot is one of the mainstays of a good beastman army.  As a core choice, the opportunity to deploy large numbers of them means that the variety of army types and tactics increases exponentially.  With a WS5, one S5 and a S4 attack, coupled with two S3 attacks which increase to S5 on the charge, the chariot can pack a heavy punch.  The fact that it comes with the mark of chaos undivided gives it significant psychology advantages.  Other marks can be purchased, but they are expensive in comparison to their effects.  The best one is the mark of Khorne since it boosts the killing power of the chariot from 3 S5 and a S4 to 6 S5 and 2 S4 on the charge. As a character mount, the chariot gets up to 8 S5 and a pair of S4.  This is considerable, and almost worth the high cost.
While their status as a core unit makes them a potent threat, they are severely overpriced when compared to similar chariot choices.  The orc chariot, for example, features another point of toughness, and the option for an additional orc, while costing 5 points less.  Though lower in weapon skill, this makes it far more durable.  The ability to take multiple core chariots however helps alleviate any imbalance that might be perceived.

Specials:

Minotaur:  The Minotaur are a fluffy and powerful unit within the beastman list, used as the hammer for the normally soft or flexible beastman army.  While hounds, herds, and Centigor run along the edges, move amongst the woods and forest, or scale the rocks searching for an opportunity, the minotaur run straight in, barreling into the enemy ranks where their great axes and rend the enemy into the dirt.  The threat of a unit of minotaur on the front make the unit of beastmen moving on the side look like a far less dangerous opponent.  Unfortunately, this is exactly what the beastman player wants you to think.
   Minotaur can be given either great axes or additional hand weapons.  While another attack on their 3 attack profile is nice, almost every time, as is the norm when there is a choice, the great weapon will be placed in the minotaur’s mitts.  The power of 3 S6 attacks, backed by WS4, is too much.  With 4 models, this is a vicious 12 S6 swings, which can be combined nicely with flankers which the army can field with great regularity.  While this would seem to be enough, the fact that the unit gets Blood Greed, allowing it to pursue 3d6 inches rather than the 2 it would normally get, is another reason to give them wide berth.  Adding fear and the ability to take the mark of the lord only gives more reason to take the army.
   One thing which is often overlooked concerning minotaur is their LD8.  This leadership is the highest in the army outside of the Giant or Chaos Spawn, and is equal to the Beastlord himself.  This gives the minotaur an interesting role, since they can operate by themselves and be on equal footing to those units surrounding the lord.  Another interesting feature is that they may be taken as a core choice if the army is led by the Doombull.  This creates yet another aspect of the army that can be exploited to surprise unwary opponents and must always be considered. 

Centigor:  The newest inclusion in the Beastman list is the Centigor.  When the 6th edition book was rumored to be approaching, the newest members of the list created quite a stir amongst the crocked denizens of the Beastman forums.  Would they be fast cavalry?  Would they have bows and offer beastmen a missile weapon to kill the enemy from afar?  What would they look like?  When finally the model and the unit arrived, things settled quickly down to earth.  No, they are not fast cavalry, no they cannot have bows.  What arrived was a S4 T4 unit with M7, the ability to move through the woods unimpeded and 2 attacks at WS4.  Add the ability to give them throwing axes and the likelihood that they will be frenzied some of the time and you have a compact, maneuverable alternative for a very low cost.
   While their price is low and their hitting ability is high, it can be problematic to field them when minotaur offer the same slot as they or another chariot could be purchased for less than the unit’s price.  Both of these are valid arguments. The fact that the army lacks nothing in the maneuverable elements department further deters players from using the unit.  However, against the Empire, the unit can be used with considerable efficiency.  While Chaos Hounds are not likely to survive charges into knights, fast cavalry, or detachments, the one S5 and one S4 attack of the Centigor on the charge make them a real threat, with 11 possible attacks on a 125mm frontage.  Still, they are very uncommon on the tabletop.

Chaos Ogres: A weak version of the Ogre Kingdom variety, the

Chaos Trolls:  Similar to the Orc and Goblin version,

Rare:

Giants:  The Giant is perhaps the single most potent, disruptive, and blunt object in the entire beastman cookbook.  Whereas everything else in the army is relatively unreliable due to a low total leadership, the giant can be asked to do what it needs to do and can be relied upon to get the job done.  Often the giant will form a center or lynch pin upon which the rest of the army spins, twirls, and annihilates.  Herds, chariots, and hounds race to the areas opened up by the terror sphere which surrounds the giant, they race in to crush units locked in combat after his 12” charge.  They sweep in behind units through ambush to prevent fleeing as the giant rumbles towards the enemy line.  In everyway a successful beastman army will be guided by a giant or two.

Dealing with the giant is exactly the same as it is in every other army in which he makes an appearance.  The Empire is distinctly able to remove the threat of the giant in ways few other than the dwarves can.  Cannon, handgun fire, and good old hand to hand combat will finish a giant in short order, but the true question remains: can he be killed before he has done the job the beastman general has set out for him to do.  Generally, the answer will be no, for he is often only needed for 2 turns, and giants have the disturbing habit of arriving in pairs.

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth:  Shaggoths are a brutal killing machine, armed with an amazing number of attacks, and able to be fielded as a general with a mark by using a lord choice.  Properly equipped, they can lay down 7 S7 attacks per turn with a 14” charge range.  Their biggest disadvantage comes from their very high point cost, often more than 300 points.  Their statistics do not support this expenditure which limits their inclusion in most cases.  Treat the, like a very fast giant, but take advantage of the fact that they cannot flee charges.  A unit of knights getting the charge off will generally be able to land a wound or two, but they will be annihilated on the return.  This can be used to finish a giant though which has been brought low by shooting from Helblasters and cannons. 

The most dangerous Shaggoth is by far the Slaanesh variety.  The mark gives them always strikes first, which means you will have 5 S7 ASF attacks to bore through each turn.  This can be significant and dangerous.  While a Steam Tank is often a good response to the Shaggoth, in this case it can be hazardous.  While piling in the impact hits, the Steam Tank will not kill a Shaggoth with full wounds, which will then pound the Stank into scrap metal.  Shooting and one or two wound finishes will end him, but these are not often necessary due to the rarity of the model.

Chaos Spawn:  Chaos spawn are a popular choice, being fairly inexpensive and capable of tying up units which cannot wound their T5.  While durable, they struggle to actually cause wounds.  They will generally be used to glue a unit in place for a flank charge from something that can rob rank bonus.  Beware of their unbreakablility, because a savvy general will use them to lock down parts of the board to prevent their army from being rolled up.  They and the Giants are the exceptions to the rule concerning beastmen armies and horrid leadership.

Dragon Ogres:  Dragon ogres are a hit or miss unit, with many swearing by them and others feeling they are not worth the points.  With S5 and T4, their 4 wounds make them very durable.  Additionally their good AS makes them a tough unit to kill, and their immunity of psychology and LD8 make them firm against leadership tests.  Once given light armor and a great weapon, they will produce good CR and can take a hit.  Dragon Ogres cannot take marks either, reducing their versatility.  Unfortunately, they are more than 85 points so equipped, take a rare slot, and are difficult to justify compared to less expensive choices like the minotaur.  Their M7 pushes them up a bit, but Minotaur and their Bloodgreed ability allow them to pursue the 3d6 inches Ogres can.  For the price of a 4 man Dragon Ogre unit, a play can take a Giant and a unit of Minotaurs, which are more effective in comparison.  If facing them, shoot them as normal, with diversionary units pulling them aside to give more time to fire.  Do not engage full units, but infantry can easily win against 2 models or less.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 22, 2008, 12:15:31 PM
Marks:

The Mark of Slaanesh:   The mark of Slaanesh is by far the cheapest, most innocuous mark of the four.  It grants Immunity to Psychology, with the benefits and penalties that come with it.  While this seems powerful, the fact that only minotaur, a single unit of bestigor, and chariots can take it, make it a highly suspect option.  Characters cannot grant the ItP to their units, so it is only useful for them in cases where shamans use it to get access to the Lore of Slaanesh.  Here is where the mark shines.  The Lore of Slaanesh is perhaps the most useful and powerful lore in the game, with vicious offensive spells coupled with stunning support options.  These are expanded on in the magic section.

The Mark of Khorne:  Perhaps the most powerful mark on the list, the mark of Khorne grants a dispel dice and frenzy to the unit or model taking it.  The dispel dice add up quickly, and the powerful frenzy ability make for a very potent upgrade for minotaur, bestigor, and chariots.  Unlike the mark of Slaanesh, giving the mark to characters is a very good choice since their units do not need the mark to take advantage of the dispel dice.

The Mark of Nurgle:   Universally considered the worst mark, the mark of Nurgle suffers from the very high cost to take it and the underwhelming ability it grants.  Units with the mark cause fear, which should be powerful, but with point costs in the 40 point range for characters, and 50 point range for units, the choice to take it is very difficult.  While units led by fear causing characters will be immune to the effect, the cost is so high that it is a struggle to justify the expenditure.  Only minotaurs truly benefit from the mark, since they get a 5+ scaly skin save, which can be combined with light armor for a 4+ save.  These minotaur are very tough customers and arguably the best offensive unit in the army for their cost.  Characters also get the Lore of Nurgle, which is good but not overwhelming.

The Mark of Tzeentch:  The mark of Tzeentch is interesting but somewhat problematic.  The most powerful effect of the mark on characters is the ability to make the Beastlord a level 4 wizard and the Doombull and Wargor level 2.  This seems good, for they are powerful wizards able to defeat the enemy in close combat and kill from afar, but they are all saddled with the very poor magic list of Tzeentch.  The negatives of the lore are covered in the magic section.  Units generate an additional power dice, which is good, especially given the low cost of the mark itself.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 22, 2008, 12:17:02 PM
Common beastman tactics:

The Superherd:  The super herd is a massive beastherd which is the home of most if not all of the characters taken for the army.  Used since time began, the army became very popular when a very successful Chaos player named GeneralofChaos began winning lots of tournaments with it.

The core concept:  A large herd, numbering around 25 models, with 6 – 8 gor and the rest ungor.  Then a Beastlord and two Wargor are added.  In almost every case, these characters are all Tzeentch marked, giving a large magic pool and multiple opportunities to buff the unit.  The unit can and will break almost anything it touches, with 4 attacks from the lord, 6 from the Wargor, 3 from the foerender, it is an absolute mess on the enemy.

The Superherd will be protected by flanking units like other herds, hounds, or Centigor, used to get in and disrupt prior to the Superherd getting a clear line of sight on the enemy.  The army takes advantage of the raider rules, which allow the characters to move to the front of the unit no matter where they were prior to the charge.  This versatility makes for a very nasty unit.  But it is also home to what is often between a quarter and a third of the total points in the army.  For this reason, if you can engage a Superherd in combat and stick, a flank or rear charge can often mean the unit will be broken.  Additionally, if you are able to kill off a character or two the unit begins to falter and collapse quickly.  The maximum LD8 also creates many psychology opportunities, where the Steam Tank or Griffon can exploit its inherent flaws and shatter the unit.

Removing the support units can be done in the same manner as other tactical profiles.  Knights make very good chase units, running Centigor and chaoshounds off the board while forcing herds to remain within range of help.  Use the knights to bait the herd to where you need it after chasing off the support.  One issue with this is the fact that the herd is not unduly hurt by being forced to move in a given direction.  It is capable of altering direction like few others and can be difficult to slow considerably with a lot of work.  On the plus side, tying up a third of the enemies points by playing with it all game affords many opportunities to scoop their remaining points for an easy win.

Chariot Storm:   The favored tactic of PhillyT, this uses the ability to take chariots as core and support them with units of beastherds to exploit the enemy and take advantage of the low cost of the two.  Generally, one chariot will be deployed for every herd, with minimum being 4 of each.  In some conformations, up to 10 chariots can see play with 6 to 8 herds being deployed in ambush.  These are difficult lists to play against, since they leave few points on the table and are hard to panic since most of the army is below US5 or so maneuverable that they may reach anywhere on the table within a turn or two.

The Core Concept:  Normally this army will drop two units of herds in the deployment zone, each led by a character.  One will be the BSB, while the other a shaman or another Wargor in the case of Khorne armies.  The Beastlord will deploy in a chariot.  This is enough raiders to allow 5 ambushing units to be held in reserve.  3 to 7 chariots are then dropped and generally a pair of giants.  Depending on the mix of units, one or two Minotaur units will deploy on the flank for the final piece of this style of play.  When finished, there are normally 4 units with M6 (the giants and the Minotaur) 2 with M5 (the herds), and 4 – 8 with M7 (chariots).  These will begin moving across the board at full speed.  On the second turn, the ambushers will arrive, attempting to get the flanks of the deployment zone or the rear.  By turn 3, the units deployed in the deployment zone will all be within charge range of the enemy deployment zone, while the ambushers will have gotten at least two units into the rear of the army.
 
This setup is perhaps the worst nightmare for Empire armies, since it gives only one or two turns to shoot the artillery before they are threatened.  The best approach to dealing with this army may seem counterintuitive.  Moving out of the deployment zone and away from the board edge is imperative.  Creating a little space between you and the oncoming ambushers will allow you to take the initiative rather than be forced to react to your opponent’s moves.  Another option is to deploy close to the back of the deployment zone to block areas where units can come on.  Using terror causing units like griffins and Steam Tanks can make for large regions of the board where ambushing will be dangerous for the Beast player.

Beastman armies do very well when they force the enemy to respond, they falter when they are put into the same position.  Knights are the best option for dealing with chariots, after shooting.  Shooters will be able to soften the chariot, thus allowing knights to take advantage of the T4 and 4+ armor save.  Most knight units will break chariots in a single turn, moving them into the back field and setting them up to rear charge the remaining units.  One thing to be cautious of in these cases is the 360 degree charging of the herds, who will often swing back around and assault the knights who have moved through.  Keeping knights cheap and bannerless will make this less significant. 

Shooting should concentrate on the giants and chariots.  Cannon will do well on either, with the giants being the first choice.  Helblasters and small arms are both capable of causing wounds on either.  Minotaur should not be ignored either, though they will often be shielded by herds until one turn before charging.  Mortars are nearly useless, though a case can be made for helstorms.  As in all cases, the Steam Tank is nearly custom made to deal with beastmen.  Griffin riding Generals are also in their prime against an army setup like this.
Beware of paired charges, with chariots hitting in sets or coupled with a Beastherd attempting the Pinwheel of Death.  Minotaur units and giants will often take advantage of the clogged charge lanes created by the ambushers and chariots and sneak into insidious charge positions for the following turns, either taking advantage of units sure to break or in preparation of a herd which is about to move aside.

The Doombull Apocalypse:   This build uses the ability of the Doombull to take Minotaur as core to deploy a frightening array of US3 models supported by chariots, hounds, giants, and herds.  Generally the same tactics used for Ogre Kingdom units will work in this case.  Minotaur have higher WS and Initiatives, but they lack the bull charge and musician options available to ogres.  That they all have LD8 can be an issue, and the fact that they have far better support units means they can be a more dangerous army to deal with than Ogres.

The Core Concept:   The Doombull himself is a relatively top tier lord.  With A5, S and T of 5, and 4 wounds he can be a significant threat.  The positives are that he cannot take ward saves of any kind, and his AS is low.  The Slaughterers blade can make up for this.  Generally he will be marked with Khorne or Nurgle, since the Nurgle mark makes the minotaurs truly dangerous.  The army then uses 3 – 4 Minotaur units armed with great weapons, one or two giants, and a bunch of herds for cover.  The benefits of this setup are that there will be no ambushers, so what is on the board is all you need to worry about.  Panic the herds, shoot the minotaur, and cannon the giants.  This build will get across the board quickly, but it struggles to win combat in the same manner as the Ogre Kingdoms.

Universal Tactics:

Pinwheel of Death: This tactic was popular in 6th edition when skirmishers could double their move even when within 8” of the enemy.  It can still be used today, but is less effective. The tactic involves two mobile units, one always a beast herd, which approach a unit which has been isolated in someway.  This often occurs after ambushers have moved onto a unit’s rear or flank, or when giants, spawn, Minotaur, or chariots have engaged a units support elements.  The isolated unit will then have two units attempt to threaten different sides of the unit, or the rear, forcing the unit to turn or reform to face the one of the two.
When units could double move, a herd could move to within an inch and keep moving to the flank with their 10” movement, forcing the unit to eternally reform or face a vicious flank charge (though no rank bonus would be lost, it would often be enough to tip the balance combined with the other threatening unit).  Under 7th, the unit would struggle to get around to the flank repeatedly, but the ability to move two units into a threatening position is still easy to accomplish with the amazing maneuverability of the beastman army.  A unit which finds itself in this situation should always turn to face the unit which can take ranks, ignoring the beastherd.  One should always remember that herds do not remove rank bonus.  Them hitting a flank or rear will add CR, but leave the static CR of the unit in place.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 22, 2008, 12:17:59 PM
Lores of Magic:

The Lore of Slaanesh:


1 – Blissful Throes:  A powerful spell granting 1d6 S6 hits on a target within 12” as a magic missile.  Very useful for an army with no missile fire.  The maneuverability of the Beastman wizards makes this spell even better.

2 – Luxurious Torment: A good spell which has both offensive and defensive possibilities.  It causes frenzy in the unit is cast on, but deals d6 S3 hits on the unit during the shooting phase of each player.  This can be used on beastman units to create a more powerful attack, but its application as an offensive weapon to be cast on low toughness enemy units is even better.  Over only one turn, the unit suffers 2d6 S3 hits.  Additionally, it can be used to pull units from the battleline through frenzy.  Detachments are particularly popular targets.

3 – Titillating Delusions:  An interesting spell, this forces units to move towards a specific point on the table.  This point must be within the unit’s line of sight.  While seemingly potent, players must keep in mind that the movement takes place during the remaining moves phase.  The unit may charge anything they see freely, so take advantage of this to avoid having to turn a flank, the most popular application of this spell.

4 – Delectable Torture:  Perhaps the worst spell on the list, it forces a character to attack the unit he is in.  Against Empire this results in very little, although Elector Counts with Runefangs have been known to deal tremendous damage to their knightly escorts in the past.

5 – Enrapturing Spasms:  Far and away the best spell on the list, and perhaps the best in the game.  The target unit cannot move in the movement phase, cannot shoot, cannot attack back in combat, or cast spells (with remain in play spells cast from the unit being dispelled immediately).  The application for the spell is nearly limitless.  The most popular use is to cast it on a powerful unit in combat, get into hand to hand, and take advantage of the fact that the unit cannot strike back and is hit automatically in CC.

6 – Delicious Excruciation:  This spell makes a unit unbreakable.  A useful spell, but very hard to cast, requiring a minimum of 3 dice to even have a chance, and 4 to get it consistently.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on December 22, 2008, 01:51:54 PM
3 – Titillating Delusions:  An interesting spell, this forces units to move towards a specific point on the table.  This point must be within the unit’s line of sight.  While seemingly potent, players must keep in mind that the movement takes place during the remaining moves phase.  The unit may charge anything they see freely, so take advantage of this to avoid having to turn a flank, the most popular application of this spell.

Or, as me and an old opponent put it, "being distacted by a rather erotic hedgehog"....
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on December 22, 2008, 03:17:39 PM
Oh no Philly! These tacticas makes me tempted to start beasts as my evil army! No good, no good! I must focus on something...
Still, maybe better to wait for the new book first and decide later.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on December 22, 2008, 05:53:29 PM
I knew the subtle taint of chaos would breach your holy facade given time  :evil:.

 :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: fauthsie on December 23, 2008, 03:33:43 AM
Its an excellent read Philly. Your analysis of beastmen seems to be spot on.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Von Kurst on December 23, 2008, 01:01:46 PM
Oh no Philly! These tacticas makes me tempted to start beasts as my evil army! No good, no good! I must focus on something...
Still, maybe better to wait for the new book first and decide later.

Be strong Brother Mathi!  (at least hold out for the book)  Focus on Stirlanders, good honest folk. And ale.
 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on December 23, 2008, 01:21:09 PM
Ah, you speak true, Kurtz. Hand me a keg of that fine ale!
I will hire myself some ogres if I feel the need to have something bashy in my ranks.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on December 27, 2008, 01:34:48 PM
I just got the Avatars of War Beastlord.  He is a neat model, but not better than the GW ones.  Still, I am converting him and will post a picture.  I was hoping for something a bit bigger.  He is a hair small, no larger than the previous ones.  I did put a huge Iron Gut cleaver on him though, so he has got the slaughterer's blade represented on him.  I am looking to replace his head, but am not sure what to use.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on December 27, 2008, 02:34:26 PM
*looking forward to pictures*
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Cannonofdoom on December 30, 2008, 06:03:46 AM
You know, I always used JUST Minotaurs in my Doombull army. This concept of screening is not pleasing to Khorne, and just limits how many Minotaurs I can have.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 15, 2009, 02:27:51 PM
Fellow beastmen, I come to you in pain, tails between my leg, horns between my ear.

I'm playing this lil campaign thing which is on the warband kind of theme, over 5 weeks, each week gaining 200pts so that the last week is 1000pts.

We are on week 2 which means we are at 400pts.

I decided to take my beasts, because, well, I miss them. It's turning out to be a big mistake. I can't seem to find a set up that gives me a chance against most things. I think what really does it is the lack of two things. Good magic items (specifically arcane) and heavy troops that can take a beating.

The other armies involved are Empire, Wood Elves, Skaven, Daemons, Lizards and 3 WoChaos.

More often than not I am finding myself blasted off the face of the board by magic, combat resolved to fleeing point, or steamrollered by uber knights.

In the first week, I concentrated on herds and hounds. I got mixed results but couldn't help but feel it was luck that won me my win and held me in my draws.

Two games so far in week 2 (as it turns out, my 500pts against their 600pts - you can use league points to up your points) and I tried out Minos, Ogres, Chariot and Shaman. They both could have gone both ways but ultimately the lack of saves on my big guys meant they just could not win their combats and it's driving me nuts because the points I have invested in my shaman, due to lack of cool magic items has made him inferior.

Should I return to herds and ambushing? Or should I try something else? Should centigors roll on up for something new? Should I drop the shaman for a wargor? Should I consider *gulp* some marks? Should I give up, sacrifice all my models to the nearest dark god and take up knitting?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 15, 2009, 04:51:46 PM
I am not a fan of warbands type games.  The normal book rules should be used, and then no game should be below 1000 points.  There are too many imbalances in the armies.  Armies are simply not comparable below 2000 points.  The closer you can get to this, the better.

I would always take the chariot option, then take a giant.  Fill in the rest with herds and hounds.  The army should just go with a wargor to save points.  Magic really should have THAT big an effect at this point level if you horde the field with plenty of units.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 15, 2009, 05:45:11 PM
You obviously haven't faced my brother and his pesky L2 fire wizard complete with rod of power. Two firey spells a turn = youchy!!

Anyways, thanks for the input. I did find the chariot worked out pretty well (aside from the predictable '1' roll for my impact hits  :icon_rolleyes:). The only thing that bugs me about them is the not being able to march. So they can't really keep up with the rest of the army so well.

As to the giant. Yes, I must get one of these somehow. I'm thinking maybe I should just take the plunge and get a Shaggoth as that would be big and hairy (my two main needs for my beastly giant) plus, for now at least, if I was feeling adventurous, I could try him out actually as a Shaggoth. But probably not.

I really really can't wait for the beasties book...
 
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 15, 2009, 06:18:43 PM
I have been having great success with my beasts under the current rules.

No, Shaggoths suck.  Don't use them.  Giants and the giant kit are absolutely ace!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 15, 2009, 11:00:12 PM
I guess the thing is that the Shaggoth mini fits in so much better with the way I want my army to be so I'd get that to use, but just using the giant rules.

The Shaggoths are in the new WoC book now right? Are they any different? Is there any chance anyone will ever use them?

I think I am mainly looking forward to the new book because our rules will be a bit more solidified as we will be a totally stand alone army rather than a stand alone army with some bits cut out, the new minis... and the curiosity of what they might do with them.

You know, the whole 'will they put the beasts units from WoC in too and if not what might be there instead... if anything' debate.

I do have to say that I still adore ambush. Whenever I use it, even for warhounds, my enemy groans and starts getting all confused about their deployment and advance routes. Not having to put them down till turn 2 gives that extra time to see what they are gonna do too. I have an uncanny knack of passing my hounds Ld too, no idea why. Hope that's not a rule that goes.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 16, 2009, 01:01:18 PM
I guess the thing is that the Shaggoth mini fits in so much better with the way I want my army to be so I'd get that to use, but just using the giant rules.

True, though you can do an awful lot with the giant kit.  I am on my 3rd one.  Green stuff can make the giant look like whatever you like with a little work.

Quote
The Shaggoths are in the new WoC book now right? Are they any different? Is there any chance anyone will ever use them?

No, they are still an overpriced pile of nothing.  The Giant is more reliable, more capable of stoping units in their tracks, and much cheaper for what he offers.

Quote
I think I am mainly looking forward to the new book because our rules will be a bit more solidified as we will be a totally stand alone army rather than a stand alone army with some bits cut out, the new minis... and the curiosity of what they might do with them.

You know, the whole 'will they put the beasts units from WoC in too and if not what might be there instead... if anything' debate.

I am thinking they are going to move Centigor to fast cavalry, make chariots 2 for one specials (they did it with BT and such) and hopefully improve our laughable character selection.  A fix for bestigor will be welcome too.  Outside of that I think the army does fantastic still.

Quote
I do have to say that I still adore ambush. Whenever I use it, even for warhounds, my enemy groans and starts getting all confused about their deployment and advance routes. Not having to put them down till turn 2 gives that extra time to see what they are gonna do too. I have an uncanny knack of passing my hounds Ld too, no idea why. Hope that's not a rule that goes.

I wouldn't think so.  The rule has been proven to not be broken, so they probably won't change it.  You do have to structure your army to take advantage of it, and it often requires piles of cheap troops to do.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on January 16, 2009, 02:13:42 PM
with chariots at special, do you see a massive congestion of specials?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 16, 2009, 03:51:26 PM
Maybe Centigor would move to core like dark riders.

*crosses hooves*
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on January 16, 2009, 03:52:23 PM
Not sure if you guys have read GoC's "insider source" rumors yet, but if they're even mostly true I'm happy.  Here's the link:  http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=16376

Some of it sounds pretty dubious, and since the book is still so far off a lot can change.  Still though, if they give us a decent magic item selection and keep most everything else the same, then I'm all for it.  Though I still think gors in herds with options for HW/SH + LA would be pretty cool since it would give us some sort of almost-but-not-quite-line infantry.

Chaos ogres doing impact hits seem a little odd since it wasn't included in the WoC book, and if the catapult idea is true I'm smacking someone.

Pyre
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Dammanz on January 16, 2009, 09:20:20 PM
If you give a unit of minotaurs the mark of Nurgle does it make them cause terror since they already cause fear?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 16, 2009, 10:21:56 PM
If you give a unit of minotaurs the mark of Nurgle does it make them cause terror since they already cause fear?

No, they get a 5+ scaly skin save, which can be combined with their LA for a 4+.  About the second best mark.

As for the rumors, I like them.  The chariot is the thing I am worried about.  I have 8, 5 painted, and think they are the epitomie of the BoC list.  To make them one for one specials (which is what I just read on Warseer) will kill them.  Competing with Minotaurs, and everything else will be a real problem.  You will only see two, then which ever ones are used as character mounts.  I will do that, but won't like it.  I guess I could still use two for mounts, 2 minotaur, 2 as specials, and still get close to my 5 chariots and paired minotaur units.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Aldaris on January 16, 2009, 10:32:20 PM
I'm suffering from the same problem Mathi has. Reading this thread is making my mouth water to get me some beastmen. Must... resist...
Gotta expand my 40K Imperial Guard first, Only a third of my Chaos Space Marines are painted, and my fledgling Empire force needs a lot of attention too.   :|
But I always thought beastmen to be one of the most iconic and characterful armies of the Warhammer world. I think they'll be the choice for my second fantasy army in a few months or so.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 17, 2009, 10:33:22 AM
That's the way Aldaris... succumb to the furry joy...  :icon_twisted:

Talking of furry joy, I tried out this list last night to try and improve my fortunes. It was against WoC.

R] Giant

C] Chariot

C] Chariot

C] Herd, 7 gor, 11 ungor

C] 5 Hounds


I got massacred to a man (beast). The giant just seemed to act as a huge pincushion. All those chaos warriors are only needing 4s or 5s to hit. I took a chariot charge which took 3 wounds off instantly. I then got beat up by a unit of 4 chaos warriors. How on earth do you keep the flimsy thing alive long enough to kill anything?

I fled my herd through some woods to avoid the knights charging me and set up my double chariot slam on them only for my herd to fail to rally and my 2 chariots fail to pass their fear test. Then they were charged by said knights and also some marauder horses in the flank. To their everlasting credit, they hung in there for about 3 rounds of combat, even managing to take down a knight before being trashed.

*sigh*

We play 4 games a round. This round I have suffered 4 massacres.  :icon_cry:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on January 17, 2009, 10:56:27 AM
that just sounds like horrendous luck tbh...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 17, 2009, 12:16:18 PM
I don't think that list is bad.  What is the point totals?  Seems off.  At really low points I bomb chariots in and support them with a few herds, no giant.  In a Warbands game I would drop a giant though.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on January 17, 2009, 12:22:46 PM
That's the way Aldaris... succumb to the furry joy...  :icon_twisted:


I could try and make some kind of innuendo, but it would be so darned obvious...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 17, 2009, 12:33:33 PM
And Von Breden would hunt you down and kill you.

phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on January 17, 2009, 12:44:35 PM
I will make Von Breden my bitch, then he must do as I say, and accept the penis jokes!  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 17, 2009, 01:32:04 PM
I will make Von Breden my bitch, then he must do as I say, and accept the penis jokes!  :evil:

We'll see about that at the next Eurobash ?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Florian Geyer on January 17, 2009, 01:50:26 PM
As for the rumors, I like them.  The chariot is the thing I am worried about.  I have 8, 5 painted, and think they are the epitomie of the BoC list.

I haven't played against beasts since they were uniposed, armed with halberds and had two wounds, neither do I know an awful lot about their fluff. That being said, isn't beastmen supposed to live primarily in the forests of the Empire? I know, there are problems with using select bits of realism in a fantasy setting but come on, chariots in forests?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Von Breden on January 17, 2009, 01:55:53 PM
I'll leave my memory at home, so I won't have to bear hearing the same joke over and over again.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 17, 2009, 03:58:19 PM
I actually had 520 or 530 points to use as each game gets you bonus points depending on how well you do. She had 580 points as she had done better up till now.

It's a kind of weird mix of warbands and just low points. At least I think it is, cos warbands are skirmish right? I haven't read it but I thought they were. We are playing mostly normal rules, except min unit size is 3 for infantry, 2 for cavalry and one for ogre sorta size but if you take under the army book minimum you can't take unit upgrades.

I maybe did have bad luck to an extent but failing ld7 tests probably should never be a big surprise. I did manage to eadbutt the chariot which was nice but then next turn he did a swing and a miss with his club when I really needed that chariot to be kindling.

I think I will probably use the giant again, but maybe against the lower strength armies. Skaven and Wood Elves might struggle with it...

I'm actually wondering about slapping down a herd/chariot/centigor army for the fast moving wood moving style army. Maybe even have a shaman with the old movement spell magic item, though I kinda wish it was a bound spell in a way. Maybe i could tzeentch up my chariot for a bonus power dice.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on January 17, 2009, 06:45:45 PM
Siberius, the biggest problem you're going to run into is that... well... we suck at that low a point level.  Every leadership issue BoC have is magnified three times over at low point totals, and our heroes make awful leaders.  If there's an option to make a champion your general, then do that.  If not, then use marks as best you can to mitigate the craptastic leadership.

As for giants, they're either brilliant or useless.  At such point levels I think I'd rather have another 2-3 chariots rather than a giant.  Two more chariots and a minimal "trash herd" would do you much better.


Pyre
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Von Kurst on January 17, 2009, 08:51:00 PM

R] Giant

C] Chariot

C] Chariot

C] Herd, 7 gor, 11 ungor

C] 5 Hounds
I got massacred to a man (beast). The giant just seemed to act as a huge pincushion. All those chaos warriors are only needing 4s or 5s to hit. I took a chariot charge which took 3 wounds off instantly. I then got beat up by a unit of 4 chaos warriors. How on earth do you keep the flimsy thing alive long enough to kill anything?

I fled my herd through some woods to avoid the knights charging me and set up my double chariot slam on them only for my herd to fail to rally and my 2 chariots fail to pass their fear test. Then they were charged by said knights and also some marauder horses in the flank. To their everlasting credit, they hung in there for about 3 rounds of combat, even managing to take down a knight before being trashed.
Siberius, the biggest problem you're going to run into is that... well... we suck at that low a point level.  Every leadership issue BoC have is magnified three times over at low point totals, and our heroes make awful leaders.  If there's an option to make a champion your general, then do that.  If not, then use marks as best you can to mitigate the craptastic leadership.

As for giants, they're either brilliant or useless.  At such point levels I think I'd rather have another 2-3 chariots rather than a giant.  Two more chariots and a minimal "trash herd" would do you much better.

Pyre

Siberius who or what was your general?  Did you re-roll your fear tests?  (With Undivided?)  Our beasts player brought a unit of Minotaurs with a Champion to get Ld 8 at 500 or below he whined less after that...

It's a kind of weird mix of warbands and just low points. At least I think it is, cos warbands are skirmish right? I haven't read it but I thought they were. We are playing mostly normal rules, except min unit size is 3 for infantry, 2 for cavalry and one for ogre sorta size but if you take under the army book minimum you can't take unit upgrades.

I maybe did have bad luck to an extent but failing ld7 tests probably should never be a big surprise. I did manage to eadbutt the chariot which was nice but then next turn he did a swing and a miss with his club when I really needed that chariot to be kindling.

I think I will probably use the giant again, but maybe against the lower strength armies. Skaven and Wood Elves might struggle with it...

Warbands are not Skirmish.  Skirmish rules are based on Mordheim with Warhammer rules for weapons etc and all models count as single models.  Warbands rules are based on Warhammer with special rules for leaders, unit sizes and composition.

Skaven and Wood Elves will shoot the giant to death in like 1-2 rounds.  I was shocked you used him in a Warbands game, but then I read you were fighting WoC and decided all bets were off!  Next time bring a Shaggoth!

As for the rumors, I like them.  The chariot is the thing I am worried about.  I have 8, 5 painted, and think they are the epitomie of the BoC list.

I haven't played against beasts since they were uniposed, armed with halberds and had two wounds, neither do I know an awful lot about their fluff. That being said, isn't beastmen supposed to live primarily in the forests of the Empire? I know, there are problems with using select bits of realism in a fantasy setting but come on, chariots in forests?

Beastmen are based on the historical Briton/Gaulic/Germanic armies that fought the Romans.  The Chariots would be the nod to the Britons.  See Warhammer Ancients.

Wood elves used to have them since they are based around the historical Celts as well.  To put it in an historical context, the ancient Germans who were mainly from heavily forested areas had better cavarly then the Guals who were horse breeders from the plains...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 18, 2009, 01:48:48 AM
The chariots are the main method of movement for many herds.  They are the cavalry, thus their importance.  I remember the arguements on Kuh Tathor's Herdstone forums how they used to talk about the idea of ungor's riding tuskagors instead.  Then we all started talking about how weird it would be for one hooved animal riding another and how it was sort of ewwy.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on January 18, 2009, 09:58:03 AM
I will make Von Breden my bitch, then he must do as I say, and accept the penis jokes!  :evil:

We'll see about that at the next Eurobash ?

My chances of even going are slim.  :-P

I have already started my dominion of him, for I am the reason his christmas avatar is gone.  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 18, 2009, 11:03:37 AM
Von Kurst, I totally forgot I was undivided! *slaps forehead hard*. No wonder Notts said it was really bad luck.

See this is the problem. I play dark elves so much and beasts not often and so I just don't have the feel for them yet that I should.

In that list, a foe-render was my general.

But the idea of a minotaur champion as general makes so much sense.

Sadly, you know what now. This next week we go up to 600pts and apparently we are not playing warband rules. It's normal style army selection.

Hmm. I guess I will have to take a wargor or shaman now. I think I will start using all sorts of marks though. The nurgle mark on my minos might save me a lot of crying myself to sleep at my lack of armour saves. And maybe I will decide my chariot marks depending on who I am about to face. If there is a lot of fear I could make them undivided. If not, maybe i could tzeentch them both, get a marked shaman and start blasting my enemies off the face of the board.

Come to think of it, what lists of magic do we even use now if we take a mark. Still the ones in the back of the beasts book?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 18, 2009, 09:25:18 PM
Yes the book marks.  Also, keep in mind that unlike WoC, we still must obey the marks rules in the book.

A decent alternative to taking a shaman is a Tzeentch marked wargor.

I am about to play a 2250 game against DE with my Superherd test army.  I'll post a full report.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 19, 2009, 03:09:05 AM
Here are the lists of the just completed game:

My List: Beastmen

Beastlord – Mark of Tzeentch, Rune of the Truebeast, Goretooth, Great Weapon, Pelt of Shargu, Heavy Armor : 323 points.

Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Mark of Tzeentch, Heavy Armor: 159 points.

Bray Shaman – Mark of Chaos Undivided, Staff of Darkoth, Chaos Armor: 145 points:

Total: 627

Core:

3 Tuskagor Chariots – All marked with Tzeentch – 315 points

1 Beast Herd: 8 Gor 9 Ungor – Full Command: 127 points
1 Beast Herd: 8 Gor 9 Ungor – Full Command: 127 points

1 Super Herd: 11 gor, 14 ungor, Musician and Standard: 148 points

5 Hounds: 30 points
5 Hounds: 30 points

Total Core: 717 points.

Special:

5 Centigor – Shields, Musician: 102 points.
3 Minotaur – Great Weapon, Mark of Tzeentch: 152
3 Minotaur – Great Weapon, Mark of Tzeentch: 152


Rare:

1 Giant: 205 points
1 Giant: 205 points

Total: 2248 points.


His List: Dark Elves.

Heroes:

Dreadlord: Heavy armor, pendant, enchanted shield, sword of might.  Mounted on Manticore: 396

Sorceress: Level 2, Dark Steed, Darkstar Cloak: 172 points.

Sorceress: Level 2, Dark Steed, powerstone: 167 points.

Core:

10 archers
10 archers
5 dark riders
5 dark riders
25 Dark Elf warriors: full command

Special:

1 Chariot
20 Black Guard
10 Witch Elves

Rares:

1 Hydra
1 Hyrda
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Von Kurst on January 19, 2009, 03:41:01 AM
Sadly, you know what now. This next week we go up to 600pts and apparently we are not playing warband rules. It's normal style army selection.

Hmm. I guess I will have to take a wargor or shaman now. I think I will start using all sorts of marks though. The nurgle mark on my minos might save me a lot of crying myself to sleep at my lack of armour saves. And maybe I will decide my chariot marks depending on who I am about to face. If there is a lot of fear I could make them undivided. If not, maybe i could tzeentch them both, get a marked shaman and start blasting my enemies off the face of the board.

Come to think of it, what lists of magic do we even use now if we take a mark. Still the ones in the back of the beasts book?

Who are your enemies in this league? Normally I would recommend lots of cheap troops backed by a killer unit of minotaurs or Dragon Ogres, but I have no experience against the daemons or new DE.  I would advise a Mark of  Nurgle on a wargor or Bray Shaman since in 7th if the character causes fear the unit gets immunity from fear.  At low points even Beasts should be able to handle Vamps if you include magic weapons to hurt the ethereals.  Your idea of Tzeentch is also good for blasting undead.

If you take a mark that can use spells you use the ones in the Beasts book.
 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 19, 2009, 08:19:43 AM
Thanks for the rules clarifications fellow beasties.

Philly, that looks like an interesting battle. One of my armies against the other. Looking forward to the full report  8-).


Von Kurst, there are 3 WoC, 1 DoC, 1 Empire, 1 Wood Elf, 1 Skaven, 1 Lizard and me.

I think I really am going to mark everything I can. I'm feeling like I need all the stat boosts/special rules I can get my hooves on to try and compete with the amount of chaos knights and such forth that I am generally facing.

Will read up on the spell lists too so I know exactly what will work for battle. My tendency before now (being super undivided - which I hope to return to with the new book but we'll see) is to use Death or Beasts magic on a undivided shaman but desperate times call for desperate measures!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 19, 2009, 12:33:15 PM
Will read up on the spell lists too so I know exactly what will work for battle. My tendency before now (being super undivided - which I hope to return to with the new book but we'll see) is to use Death or Beasts magic on a undivided shaman but desperate times call for desperate measures!

Undivided will most likely go the same way it went in the WoC book.  The marks are supposed to be the same.

As for magic, Shadow magic is REALLY nasty.  Much more so than Beasts.  You should give that a try.

Phil

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 19, 2009, 01:44:19 PM
Here are the first two turns:

Setup:

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Initial.jpg)

I set up with the superherd in the middle, blocking the minotaur and the chariots behind it.  The centigor setup to run straight into the woods to threaten a couple of his units.  The hounds and the other two herds setup in ambush.

He setup with a unit of witch elves blocking his blackguard, not sure why since it looked like he was trying to prevent them from being shot.  He then put his fast cavalry to the right flank, and two hydra, a chariot, and his spearmen to the left, making a very hard region. 

Looking at it, I had gone for a fast mobile center, while he had made a nasty left, decent center, and soft right flank.  His archers were to the center and right flanks.

I got first turn.

Turn 1:

Me:

Movement:

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Turn1_1-1.jpg)

I ran the herd forward, removing the blocking models from the minotaur and the chariots.  The centigor ran into the woods, threatening the archers and the witch elves.

Magic:

I miscast with the shaman almost immediately, which allowed the sorceress to cast Blade Wind for free which killed 5 ungor from the super herd.  Luckily the wargor got the red fire off and killed 5 witch elves. 

Shooting:  Shooting?  We don’t need to make no shooting!

Combat:  None.

Him:

Movement:

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Turn1_2-1.jpg)

He moved his hydra into the little woods with the chariot to the side and the spearmen beside that.  He moved the witchelves at an angle to the minotaur, and a unit of dark riders to the back of them.  The archers remained in position in order to shoot the superherd and attempt to cause a panic.  He made no moves to counter the centigor which were in the woods.

Shooting:  The archers and dark riders unleashed hell on the superherd, with 52 shots total between the two archer units, and the dark riders.  3 ungor died.  Ahhh…. The power of needing 6’s to hit and a 4+ to wound!  He still rolled a little under average.  The hydra burnt a minotaur for a wound.

Turn 2:

Me:

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Turn2_1.jpg)

I ambushed as needed.  I tried to bring them all in along his rear, but only one herd and one hound made it.  The other two scattered to my left flank, but there was time for them to get into the fight.  I was really hoping to charge with the centigor but for the first time ever, them got stupidity and failed it.  Of all the times!!!

I did charge the witchelves with the minotaur and giant on that side, while the minotaur on the other side charged one hydra.  I told him he should not have put the dark riders behind the witchelves, since a pursuit would bring me into contact with them and they cannot flee.  He regretted his decision.  You may be wondering why I brought the giant in with the minotaur to kill only 6 witch elves.  Had I wiped the unit out, the Blood Greed of the Minos would have forced them to restrain their overrun to eat the dead.  I wanted those dark riders, so I needed the Giant to be able to overrun should I wipe out those elves.

Magic:

We did the magic dance, with him dispelling a couple things, but I got Blue Fire off, got 12 hits, 10 on the manticore, S5.  Caused 5 wounds.  Dead Manticore.  The general will be walking to war and I sighed with relief.  I then hit the Black Guard for a Green Fire, which causes the unit to attack itself.  The 20 Blackguard proceeded to butcher themselves for 10 wounds!!  He had rolled 18 hits after his rerolls.  That was half points on a unit with the Banner of Hag Gref!  Not bad.  The magic pretty much ended at that point.

Shooting: None.

Combat:

The minotaur and the Giant crushed the witchelves, but they killed a minotaur with poison after the giant failed to jump up and down and instead pitched over and laid around…  The minotaur carried into the Dark Riders while the Giant promptly stood up instead.

The Hydra slaughtered the minotaur, but they did cause 2 wounds on him.  He then pursued and caught the one remaining.

Him:

Movement:

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Turn2_2-1.jpg)

He charged my superherd with both hydra and the chariot.  Things were getting ugly at this point.  There was really no way I could win this fight, so I chose to flee, a risky proposition being so close the board edge, I would have one turn to rally.  I fled, rolling a 12!!!  I halted on the very edge of the board and pooped a little.  The blackguard then charged my giant.  The dark riders inexplicable charge the centigor in the woods.

Magic:

He miscast his magic, and nothing else really happened.

Combat:

The blackguard caused 2 wounds to the giant, the giant batted 4 black guard away.  The Giant wins.  The minotaur kills 2 dark riders and the riders kill another minotaur.  The minotaur makes his leadership test and stays.  The Centigor kill a dark rider, who make their test.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 19, 2009, 03:41:59 PM
Shaping up nicely  8-). Sounds like a bloodbath.

On a side note, I do like shadow magic, I suppose the thing is I am scared that I'd roll a 1 and be stuck with a level 1 shaman with the annoying fly off spell. The dark magic had a sure fire first level spell.

As it happens though, maybe I'd have been better off after all against the demons, as he had a 20" moving masque and fiend, not to mention his furies. My shaman never stood a chance of getting out of there alive...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on January 20, 2009, 12:57:08 AM
that De army looks small for 2500- and I see you missed off some DR and WE.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 20, 2009, 02:13:02 AM
Good catch notts.  I corrected it and marked the game as 2250 points.

The rest of the game tomorrow.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on January 20, 2009, 02:20:02 AM
I look forward to it- battle reports FTW
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on January 20, 2009, 11:11:36 PM
where's my report?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 21, 2009, 12:38:30 AM
Typing it in word, but I am going to be delayed.  My wife is watching the inaugeration stuff and wants me to watch some with her.  Will get the remainder up by tomorrow.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 21, 2009, 10:22:46 PM
Here is the remainder.

Turn 3:

Movement:  I charged the hydra with all three chariots.  It fled but was caught and killed by one.  The other two carried into the other hydra.  The hounds who came on the board last turn charged the dark riders in the rear, the herd who came on charged the archers.  My generals unit rallied thank god!

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Turn3_1-1.jpg)

Magic:  Not an awful lot.  The unit had to rally!

Shooting:  I don’t shoot.

Combat:  The Dark Riders killed nothing, nor did the hounds.  The Centigor though killed all 4 Dark Riders and laughed.  The herd killed an archer, broke the unit and carried into the ongoing minotaur/Dark rider combat.  In that combat, the minotaur and foe render combined to kill the last two dark riders.

The ongoing Black Guard versus Giant combat ended predictably, with the giant being cut down before he could do anything.  The hydra managed to cause 3 wounds while taking 3 himself.  The chariot wins but the hydra makes his save.

Him:

Movement:  He charges with his chariot into one of the chariots fighting the hydra.  He also turns his archer unit to shoot the herd that killed the archers.  Will he never learn?  His black guard charge into the chariot which caught his hydra.

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Turn3_2-1.jpg)

Magic:  He kills 4 ungor from the beastherd near the archers. 

Shooting: He then kills 2 more ungor from shooting.  I am at peace with this.

Combat: His chariot destroys the chariot it charged while the hydra finishes off the other.  The black guard butcher the chariot they charged and destroy it.

Turn 4:

I managed to rally my general and his unit, so now I can really try to get my magic to work for me in this critical turn.
Movement:  I moved the herd to his generals right up to threaten his flank while leaving my hounds directly in front of his spearman unit to prevent it from moving (it would need to charge me to move).  The Giant charges the black guard from behind while my other units sort of move towards the new battle front, since the right flank has been swept clean.

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Turn4_1-1.jpg)

Magic:I blue fired the hydra (which should be a flaming attack but isn’t) and got 4 wounds on the hydra.  It fails to save enough and dies.  The chariot makes it’s panic test, but the generals unit rolls an 11 and flees into my herd.  Well that was easy.  No pendant needed!  The chariot then gets blue fired for 2 wounds.  I then surprise my enemy by dropping a red fire on the sorceress near the spearman unit.  She takes 4 wounds and dies.  We both laugh though, since it sort of seemed anti-climactic after his whole general/spearman unit was consumed.

Shooting:  Still no shooting!

Combat:  The giant takes a wound and manages to pick up and squish the black guard unit champion. 

Him:

Movement:  He turns his archers a little to take some more shots at the herd.  His chariot charges my general’s unit.

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Turn4_2.jpg)

Magic: He kills nothing since I dispel his now pathetic magic.

Shooting:  He kills nothing.

Combat:  His chariot causes an impressive 6 wounds on the ungor.  I tell him I am not bothered since I will pop his chariot with my S7 general.  I make good on my claim and sweep the chariot away.

The giant takes 2 wounds from the Black Guard, then swings with club, killing 4.  They break though on a bad stubborn test and flee into the hounds.

Turn 5:

Movement:  Cleanup time.  I move my generals unit toward his archers and charge his last sorceress with the herd which has been getting blasted away at.  She flees off the board rather than die with dignity.

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Turn5_2-2.jpg)
Rather than allow me to staff of darkoth into his archers, my enemy conceded and we shook hands.

As a whole, you can see I was forced to throw a lot of crap into his hydra to tie them up and nip wounds onto them.  This bought me time to line up for a round of blasting to finish them.  They are a nasty unit, worth at least 210 points, perhaps even 225.  That’s 50 points too cheap for those without math talents.  They are almost made to fight beastmen.  My enemy should have broken them up to project regions of power, but instead he tried to use them more like chariots.  The Black Guard did what I expected, with them holding up the giants from crushing the hydras.  Everything else worked like I hoped. 

The super herd is good, but really dangerous to use.  With LD8 and more than 800 points in one unit, it is very fragile.  Still, it has an oppressive magical presence and worked very well to shore up the army against the threats it is incapable of stopping (hydra and Black Guard).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on January 21, 2009, 10:57:36 PM
I dont understand how the superherd has good magic.
don'y you only have one shaman?

Seems like you handled him pretty easily though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 21, 2009, 11:08:11 PM
The Superherd has:

A 4th level wizard of Tzeentch
A 2nd level wizard of Tzeentch
A 2nd level Shaman of Shadow magic

And 5 bonus power dice due to Marks of Tzeentch for a total of 15 PD.

Thats alot of magic in my book. :D

As for it being easy, it was actually pretty precarious in a couple places.  Had I not sacrificed chariots and stuff to slow the hydra, they would have charged the barely rallied  Superherd and crushed it.  Also, I got luck with the panic which ran his general into my beast herd.

Goes to show though that you MUST cause panic and terror tests whenever possible.  You never know when someone will fail.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 22, 2009, 09:25:28 AM
I've learnt the hard way that even stubborn ld 10 can be broken  :roll: :icon_cry:.

It seemed like there were a few moments where it could have swung. Had the herd not rallied for example, that kind of thing. But that on the whole your plans went off very nicely.

I have now seen the light on the chariot front.

Yesterday we started round 3 of the league, which gave me 700pts to play with. I took this:

H] Wargor (tzeentch) with crown of horns and chaos armour, g.w, sh

C] Chariot (tzeentch)

C] Chariot (tzeentch)

C] Herd with 7 gor and 7 ungor; mus and champ

C] Warhounds

S] 3 Minos (khorne)

I was against a demon army which had 15 demonettes, 10 bloodletters, a fiend, a masque, 2 units of 5 furies, possibly only a 600pt list.


Last round I was butchered by that list (in fairness I only had 500pts to play with). This round everything went perfectly. The chariots and minos were astounding. For example, my minos managed to kill the masque and fiend after being charged. They then combo charged with the chariot into the demonettes and in that first round of combat slaughtered 14 of the 15!! My minos sadly died when they were charged in the flank by bloodletters, but then the chariots and herd rolled in in the last turn, killing 9 of the 10 before popping the last one with CR.

I thought magic would be me biggest friend in this, and whilst it helped annoy those furies, it was the sheer steamroller power of my chariots that really messed him up. Course, I had the best rolling I've ever had and he couldn't ward save to save his life (literally, you could say  :wink:).

I'm thinking that beefing up the units and characters with marks may be the only hope I have of making a comeback in this league. Thanks guys for the advice. So far, so good.  8-)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on January 22, 2009, 02:04:06 PM
The Superherd has:

A 4th level wizard of Tzeentch
A 2nd level wizard of Tzeentch
A 2nd level Shaman of Shadow magic

And 5 bonus power dice due to Marks of Tzeentch for a total of 15 PD.

Thats alot of magic in my book. :D

As for it being easy, it was actually pretty precarious in a couple places.  Had I not sacrificed chariots and stuff to slow the hydra, they would have charged the barely rallied  Superherd and crushed it.  Also, I got luck with the panic which ran his general into my beast herd.

Goes to show though that you MUST cause panic and terror tests whenever possible.  You never know when someone will fail.

Phil
Ah, I totally missed the tzeentch marks and what they do.
my bad.

I might make a tzeentch list with the new book, led by a demon prince who my little goats all worship, and he grants them tzeentch pwers.

ZAP.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Von Kurst on January 22, 2009, 02:26:19 PM
PhillyT--Thanks for the great batrep.

Siberius--So what kind of league are you playing in where the guy who's been massacred 4 times has more points than one of the folks who beat him... I want to play in your group!

 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 22, 2009, 02:45:47 PM
Hehe,

What happens is that at the start of each round the points go up 200. So last week was 400pts. This week is 600pts. Last week you could add up to 200 more points by spending some of your league rating. I only added 100. He added 200. The effects though only last for that round and then are reset for this week.

This week, I upgraded to get 100pts. He as of yet has not bothered to upgrade so is on 600pts where I am on 700.

Did that make any kind of sense?  :?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 22, 2009, 04:50:13 PM
It did.  To be honest, in a small point total game the best way to win is to buy and play as many chariots as possible.  At 700 points you could run 5 khorne chariots and a wargor with the same mark.

Additionally, I don't think your list was legal since minotaur can only hacve the mark of the general, who was tzeentch in this case, and they took khorne.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Aldaris on January 22, 2009, 06:18:33 PM
I don't know if it was covered somewhere in this thread, but as I understand it, Beastmen were previously able to use the Hordes of Chaos book for equipment and units. Is this still true now that the new WoC book is out? Can that one be used instead? Or still the old one? Or just the Beastmen book now?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 22, 2009, 06:25:10 PM
Thats sort of why I keep referring to the BEastman book as a one legged boxer.  We have lost ALL of the old book and must now only use the BEastman book which leaves us critically flawed in the magic item catagory and limited by a lack of cavalry options.  What we did get was the ability to mark our chariots and not really anything else.

But, the army is still very characterful and really fun to play, but sort of like a drug addicted girlfriend: you never know what she's going to do and must deal with catastrophic collapses in order to get those few moments of lucidity.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Aldaris on January 22, 2009, 06:43:17 PM
Great analogy!  :::cheers:::
And that's a shame really - but since I will take some time getting my little beasties and a new book is rumored to come, I think I'll be fine.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 22, 2009, 07:01:08 PM
Ack! You're right. This is what comes of reading past things. So many little intricate rules.

Ah well. I shall have to think about that then. It kinda messes with my army. I'm gonna have to decide what to do about the minos. Do I leave them undivided or do I make them tzeentch too... hmm...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on January 22, 2009, 07:01:45 PM
First off, excellent battle report and most importantly a well played battle.  "Super"herds, especially of the Tzeentch variety, can have a hard time against terror heavy DE since the herd is still vulnerable to psychology and has a mighty leadership of eight.  I compliment you sir on you excellent maneuvering.

 :::cheers:::

Aldaris: Yeah we kind of got screwed in the whole splitting of chaos thing.  It isn't so much the loss of units as it is the loss of magic items.  Personally, I always got my furies killed anyway so herds can kind of take up that slack.  It's the various weapons, armors, and a couple of casting items that really sucks.  I will say that marking chariots is not to be underestimated though, since it gives us a lot more options for mixing marks.

Siberius: Uh yeah, as nice as it would be, right now you can't have khorne minotaurs unless you have a khorne general.  Rumor has it that is going away, but I'll wait and see on that front.

I'm going to see about getting into a local league to playtest my latest list.  If it doesn't work I'm going back to my khornate horde list, ok semi-horde, that's served me so well.  I'm still thinking and tweaking, but what do you think of this?

1) Beastlord: Undivided; GW; HA; Sh; Crown of Horns; Pelt of the Dark Young

2) 2x Bray Shaman: Slaanesh; Both lvl 2; Both Braystaff; one: Chaos Armor, Bloodhunt horn; two: Dispel Scroll, Dispel Scroll

3) Wargor: Tzeentch; HA; Staff of Darkoth; The Dark Heart

4) Battle Herd: 7 gor/ 12 ungor; FC

5) 2x Sacrificial Herds: 5 gor/ 5 ungor; Musician

6) Bestigors (11): Slaanesh

7) 2x Chariots: Tzeentch

8) 2x Chariots: Undivided

9) 2x Minotaurs (4): Undivided; GW

10) Centigors (5): Musician; Sh

11) Chaos Giant

12) 2x Warhounds (5)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 27, 2009, 06:33:34 PM
1) Beastlord: Undivided; GW; HA; Sh; Crown of Horns; Pelt of the Dark Young

This about as close to untouchable as we can get now that we lst the Srmor of Damnation.  The Slaughterers blade might be a good inclusion too though.

Quote
2) 2x Bray Shaman: Slaanesh; Both lvl 2; Both Braystaff; one: Chaos Armor, Bloodhunt horn; two: Dispel Scroll, Dispel Scroll

I have never thought of using the bloodhunt horn on a shaman...

Quote
3) Wargor: Tzeentch; HA; Staff of Darkoth; The Dark Heart

Have they errated this?  The mark of tzeentch makes you a wizard, te staff says shan only.  I am sur they have, but I am just curious.

Quote
4) Battle Herd: 7 gor/ 12 ungor; FC

5) 2x Sacrificial Herds: 5 gor/ 5 ungor; Musician

Very good.  I like another battle herd in most of my armies though.

Quote
6) Bestigors (11): Slaanesh

Really?  I have given up on all non-khorne bestigor units.

Quote
7) 2x Chariots: Tzeentch

8) 2x Chariots: Undivided

Quote
9) 2x Minotaurs (4): Undivided; GW

10) Centigors (5): Musician; Sh

11) Chaos Giant

12) 2x Warhounds (5)

I like all of this.  I am excited to see what they do with centigor.  I use one unit everytime (once I started usng them anyway).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on January 27, 2009, 08:05:27 PM
Just a few explanations:

- I didn't put the slaughterer's blade on the lord because... well I like him dirt cheap.  With out magic selection he isn't likely to live no matter what I give him.

- The armored Bray has the Horn because he's included in the herd with the lord and the wargor.  He has decent protection, can throw a couple of strength five attacks if needed, and he had the space for the Horn.

- All spellcasters in the BoC are considered shaman.  I don't have my book with me but it's near the beginning of the magic section.  There's even been debates about the Doombull carrying it.

- Honestly?  The Slaangors are there to hide the armorless shaman and satisfy the mark requirement.  I'm as bastard that way.

  The list is designed for the magic to manipulate the enemy movement while throwing some magic missiles.  Also, I love the Slaanesh frenzy spell, and have no problems using it liberally.  I don't really count on the magic missiles doing much, they just kind of substitute for some minor archery.

Pyre
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 27, 2009, 09:24:52 PM
Ahh yes, the Bestigor fit that role, though in the new environment, I would just stick him in with the beastherd and get another chariot the mark of slaanesh.

Do you think a BL with the Slaughterers blade, 4+ AS, 5+ ward, and 6+ regen is that easy to kill?  There are only a handfull of characters that have a good chance.

As for the shaman thing, I think I knew it at some point, but forgot it along the way.  I know army builder lets me use the Staff with Tzeentch, but I thought I would ask while I was commenting :D

What's your experience with Chaos Hounds?  I find I am including more as I buy them... so cheap and manipulative.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Aldaris on January 27, 2009, 10:10:17 PM
HA! I bought the Beasts of Chaos book on ebay, for a steal.
*rubs hands*
looking forward to reading it and getting into the mood.

By the way: what's the problem with Bestigors? Aren't they supposed to be the elite infantry or something?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 27, 2009, 10:13:28 PM
They aren't bad at all statwise, with a GW, HA, WS5 S4 T4, but they have LD7 and cost 12 points.  They are sort of weird in the army, which is probably the fastest most manuverable army in the game.  They can't keep up.  While they have the same movement, 5, they can be flanked and end up being a huge point sink.  IN 6th, you look at a moderate bestigor unit at 265 points or so and can easily say "Why wouldn't I just use 3 chariots instead?"

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on January 27, 2009, 11:57:31 PM
what do you use to take ranks off philly?
herds can't do it as skirmishers
chariots can't as they lack the US
Minotaurs and centigors?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 28, 2009, 12:38:20 AM
Giants, hounds, minotaurs, and centigors can flank and remove ranks, but thats not really what the army is about.  It uses the Static CR of herds coupled with the CR generated by the minotaur and the chariots and the rear and flank bonuses involved.  Combined charges work fine when minotaur are pulling serious flat CR and giants break the rules (not literally, but rather through a messed up list that allows them to escape being attacked and beat units better than them in combat).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: offroadfury88 on January 28, 2009, 12:43:55 AM
How killy are Beats of Chaos Philly? Would they win combat by kills outnumbering with rank bonuses or both?

Because I want an army that carves through armies a hot knife through butter, winning with just combat resolution is kinda lame IMHO
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 28, 2009, 12:51:23 AM
No, you need to win through killing things.  Centigor are pretty good, but Minotaur (with the mark of khorne in particular) and chariots work the best.  Giants can do awesome also, but only with the right roll on the chart.

The army still needs to manuver to get flanks and rears, then add the poor Static CR generated by herds (+2 maximum), and then cause a little damage, you can draw out wins through smarts rather than brute force.  Herds cna do well.  A foe render with AHW gets 3 S4 attacks, then the other gor end up adding 10 S3 all at WS4.  Not super, but really not too bad.

If you want something which punches through the enemy like nothing, then BoC isn't so much your thing.  They can smash, but there are better ones for it.  Beasts allow good generals to manipulate the enemy, manuver, and then surge forward and crush everything in their path.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: offroadfury88 on January 28, 2009, 01:22:26 AM
so its all speed and such? well thats not that bad... Still better then what empire has to offer
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 28, 2009, 01:27:01 AM
Well yes, speed but then some super nasty units to kill things :D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on January 28, 2009, 02:09:51 AM
so its all speed and such? well thats not that bad... Still better then what empire has to offer
Beasts are typically considered one of the lower strata armies, with Empire somewhere in the middle.

but hey, the grass is always greener...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: offroadfury88 on January 28, 2009, 03:09:01 AM
Well see I'm a big fan of speed and killing in an army, Empire doesn't really have that.

Well yes, speed but then some super nasty units to kill things :D

Well good :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on January 28, 2009, 03:37:25 AM
Beasts right now are lower tier because of the loss of magic items and units.  When I had a full HoC list to pull from with a daemon unit of two and more magic items, there wasn't anything I felt I didn't have a chance against.  Now we're slowed mainly by loosing a LOT of magic items, but we can still make a decent stand against all but a few lists.  Ironically we can do pretty well against VC and DoC, depending on what marks you take.

so its all speed and such? well thats not that bad... Still better then what empire has to offer

It's not so much speed as maneuver.  We aren't really all that fast with a lot of move five units, chariots, and all the heavy hitters being move six.  But we can put a lot of units on the map and herds can take up immense amounts of space while not being all that vulnerable.  Together that lets us move quickly to concentrate on weak spots in the enemy forces.  Practice placing units and especially placing skirmishers.  Practice setting up flees so that they aren't running through units that may panic.  Most of all, be prepared to loose units.  I've lost half my army in the first two turns, then wiped the enemy off the board.

Ahh yes, the Bestigor fit that role, though in the new environment, I would just stick him in with the beastherd and get another chariot the mark of slaanesh.

Do you think a BL with the Slaughterers blade, 4+ AS, 5+ ward, and 6+ regen is that easy to kill?  There are only a handfull of characters that have a good chance.

As for the shaman thing, I think I knew it at some point, but forgot it along the way.  I know army builder lets me use the Staff with Tzeentch, but I thought I would ask while I was commenting :D

What's your experience with Chaos Hounds?  I find I am including more as I buy them... so cheap and manipulative.

Phil

I don't know why, but i just didn't want another chariot in there.  It would be cheaper and probably better, but the bestigors do give me somewhere to hide the soft shaman since they rarely see combat.  As for the beast lord, yeah that is pretty damn tough.  Thing is I'm just cheap.  For the cost of the Slaughterer's Blade I can almost buy another bait herd, and I'd rather run that.  It's just the way I've started tending toward: cheap characters and more units.  I like games where my characters never see combat.

As for hounds, I love them then I hate them.  They're cheap, fast, and useful.  Problem is they cause panic, and we do NOT NEED MORE PANIC CHECKS!   I've lost chariots and herds to a hound unit getting vaporized, but I always forget about that the next game.  For Khorne lists they're great, for others just remember that they going to die and keep the herds away from them.  I always take two units though, if for nothing else than claiming table quarters.


Pyre
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 28, 2009, 08:32:43 AM
Thus far I only have 2 units of 5 hounds, but if I had more, I'd take more.

Their ability to ambush (albeit only 1 might make it on where you want on average) and cause confusion seems to outway the panic thing to me. I tend to like to set them up in ambush and if they come on where I want, bonus. If not, it's only 30 points and they won't exactly be out of the game.

Last night I got massacred by skaven. I took my 6 powerdice Tzeentch Wargor mini-army and still got out-magic-ed. He had 2 pesky warplock engineers or whatever they are called, both with the bound version of the spell too so he was casting it succesfully 2 or 3 times a magic phase. My centigors, minotaurs, chariots and spawn were all eaten alive by that horrid spell. And all I had left to charge into combat was the herd, by itself, against his ranked up clanrats. That was never going to be pretty, even though he thought he was in trouble, I knew I'd not do enough wounds.

Ho hum.

This week we step up to 800pts (900 with using bonuses) and I am seriously considering marking everything khorne and forgetting a shaman or taking 2 shamans, probably with fire and death as their spells and going herdy and houndy.

*shrug*

Running out of ideas rapidly though!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on January 28, 2009, 03:01:14 PM
Welcome to playing Beasts below 2000 pts....   :icon_rolleyes:
Marking everything Khorne is probably your best bet to be honest.  At least then you've got some thing that won't panic, some dispel dice, and whatever gets to the enemy can hurt it.


Pyre
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on January 28, 2009, 03:07:26 PM
Urgh, the tempation of hairy blood-loving Khornate beasts is surging through me..... :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on January 28, 2009, 03:26:01 PM
Urgh, the tempation of hairy blood-loving Khornate beasts is surging through me..... :evil:

They're actually a lot of fun.  It's so nice picking up two handfuls of dice to roll strength six attacks.   :icon_mrgreen:



Pyre
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 28, 2009, 10:32:15 PM
Since losing access to the WoCand Demon models, I have been using Khorne almsot exclusively.  The DD and the extra attacks (and of course ItP) are great!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 28, 2009, 11:22:43 PM
Why must I read this tread, get exited and then realize I got a bunch of greenies and not to mention a newly bought Dark elf book meant to become my hardhitting speed and killing lists.

Curse this beastiality!  :icon_razz:

But at least Cold one knights got cool mounts!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on January 28, 2009, 11:30:19 PM
MAthi, you have got little timmy-itis!

paint some models you do have my man!

What I like to do is arrange a game, right a list including a bunch of models I haven't painted, and then that acts as a great incentive to paint them.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 28, 2009, 11:40:44 PM
I love the fact that I have 2200 points of painted Beastmen and only really need to paint my 10 hounds and 2 centigors to have my normal army painted and ready!

Then I have those other 1000 beastmen points to paint...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 29, 2009, 10:43:16 AM
HEre is the list I am playing around with for May:

Wargor - Bloodhunt Horn (or Great hunt horn) Chaos armor, GW, Mark of Khorne

4 Tuskagor Chariots

3 units of 5 hounds

1 Herd - 8 Gor 12 ungor - full command
1 herd - 8 gor 9 ungor - full command
1 herd - 5 gor 5 ungor - musician

5 centigor - shields and musician.

Not sure how much ambushing I would do, but it will focus on manipulation and combined charges with chariots and herds.  If an army won't allow much of that, I would go for soft points and play point denial.  I think 3 DD is going to be enough for most armies at 1000 points.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Aldaris on January 29, 2009, 11:19:46 AM
4 Chariots at a thousand points?!  :ph34r:

What do you use to keep your opponent from strangling you? a cattle prod?  :-D
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 29, 2009, 12:27:13 PM
I point out I have no magic or shooting.  Chariots are the beastmans thing.

I once used 7 at 1000 points , so 4 should be viewed as charitable.

:D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 29, 2009, 12:41:16 PM
That was so awful I had to post to say so.  :icon_cry:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 29, 2009, 12:54:31 PM
I point out I have no magic or shooting.  Chariots are the beastmans thing.

Soon you will have to change it to were...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 29, 2009, 03:07:16 PM
Will we not have our new book around May? Skaven next right? And then us. I suppose the lizzies are only just out though so it will be what 2 or 3 months to skaven? Then 2 or 3 months till beasts. Ok, yeh, it'll be a little after May  :-(. Still, I'm already extremely excited because of the way the last few books have been.

Heck, my wife has the VC book and that is great too. So many options and lots of very nice fluff and pics and whatnot. EVen though everyone seems to hate it, it does have some class. Of course the DE and WoC books also seem to give you a whole plethora of ways to play and cool units so my fingers are very much crossed that they continue the trend to beasts.

Might try out that Khorne list I wrote up a few days ago after being massacred by Wood Elves last night. Eeky! I had some disasterous combat though my centigors were beasts of the day by managing to go frenzied twice in the whole battle, both times as they were about to charge into combat  8-).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 29, 2009, 09:18:35 PM
Soon you will have to change it to were...

Yeah... yeah it will :(

Oh well, I'll have to use more as character mounts.

Siberius: Looks like October or November for us chief, certainly no earlier.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 29, 2009, 10:26:38 PM
Heck, my wife has the VC book and that is great too. So many options and lots of very nice fluff and pics and whatnot.

The sad thing there is that all the good VC fluff was written quite some years ago, and the newest book is just a cut/paste/horrible additions piece of work. There's some really shoddy work in that book. In places, they are literally pissing on some pretty decent fluff just for the sake of it. The art is of varied quality too.

Still, the shoddy writing goes well with the shoddy rules design!

Probably the best thing they did with the VC book was bringing back some of the older units and rules (wraith units, corpse carts, skeleton steeds phasing through terrain). So I expect there will be some similar archive-plundering with the new beast book.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: offroadfury88 on January 29, 2009, 11:34:25 PM
I love the story of the thief stealing the vampires jewel or something leading to the arch Lector throwing himself off the wall crushing his head while spiking the vampires face.

or something like that :unsure:

Anyways that story makes my DnD senses all tingly :happy:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 30, 2009, 08:26:25 AM
I've never really read VC fluff before, because, well, I was never interested.

So after years of reading about DE fluff and Empire fluff, it was actually rather refreshing.  :-P

EDIT

Oh and yesterday, I took on WoC and I actually managed to pull off a massacre! Go me!!

Tried out something a little different in the magic heavy environment we seem to have going right now...


L2 Shaman: Death: Staff of Darkoth

L2 Shaman: Shadow: Chaos Armour, Crown of Thorns

Herd: 6 Gors, 9 Ungors with mus & champ

Herd: 6 Gors, 8 Ungors with mus & champ

Chariot: Khorne

Chariot: Tzeentch

5 Centigors



I got the 2 movement spells from shadow which gave me 3 total! I also got steal soul so I sat my dark wizard in the woods in the middle and gradually sucked the life from the thing I feared most (chaos knights). I used my shadow shaman only a couple of times, once to slam a chariot into some marauder horsemen who probably thought they were safe to charge next turn and the other to cast steed of shadows on my other shaman to slam him into his opposite sorceror, killing him in combat.

I got some lucky rolling, but so did the WoC at a times so it felt like a pretty fair victory. The ability to move so much really helped me out, plus my dispel dice to cancel any offensive magic.

Think I may try and continue with this list a little while...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 30, 2009, 09:57:16 AM
Aww Notts... Yeah, I must have caught little Timmyitis! Damn...
I shall do as you ordain and go back to painting a huge units of Empire spears. Without shields mind you! And paint some nice Space orky stuff, finishing conversions on the Looted Dark Eldar raider, placing grots as grot riggers, taking 6 grots + a one made into Ammo runt to crew two looted and "upgunned" Empire mortars (will count as lobbas) and then spare 2 grots for rigger work on my newly aquired truck and the Rhino chassi I have obtained from the unbuild Immolator I got lying around. Save the specific Battle sister pieces for converting a Whirlwind into an Exorcist and make a second looted vehicle out of the rest.

Now I only need to find a way of making a good Boomgun from scratch... Hmm... That will be interesting.

Anyway, begone you foul beasts! Or I´ll let my orkz have at yee!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 30, 2009, 04:48:15 PM
Quick question that came up last night but not importantly.

If I have a chariot of khorne do I just get an extra attack for my chariot riders, or do the tuskgors get it too? That'd be spiffy if they did but I'm not sure if they are like mounts for this purpose. I'm guessing probably so.


EDIT

Also, another quandry I am in.

Noticed yesterday at the LGS that they are selling the old giant (the metal one with the 2 head options and holding a club which seems to be a tombstone or something...

(http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/beastsofchaos/gaming/gianttemplate/images/giant.jpg)

^^^
this one

for about $30 and that seemed like a steal to me, but 2 things I'm not sure about:

1. I don't really know if it is a steal, it just seemed cheap. Not sure what they go for these days.

2. I'm wondering if I get this one and then decide I want 2 giants, is the new giant even more giant and will this one seem puny and a bit rubbish in comparrison.

Any input from giant brains?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 31, 2009, 12:47:31 AM
The new giant is better in every possible way.  Stay far away from the metal one.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: offroadfury88 on January 31, 2009, 05:14:18 AM
(http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/beastsofchaos/gaming/gianttemplate/images/giant.jpg)

Dude I love that giant but he is really small compared to the new one
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on January 31, 2009, 09:08:14 AM
Yeh, I 'borrowed' one of these the other day in the store to try out using a giant and he was sadly small.

I actually kinda like the mini, though not as much as the old bearded one, sentimental...

I thought I'd ask about price as these days you seem to pay $30-40 for one mounted character so figured it must be a good deal.

Anyways, I want a big giant and that was why I managed to hold off on the day. Guess I'll let him sit on the shelf and get me a proper giant giant.  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 31, 2009, 09:17:36 AM
If you're serious about that, look for the forgeworld one.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on January 31, 2009, 11:14:03 AM
See I don't really like the forge world one. Sure it's really big, but it isn't all that nice looking.

The plastic one is $45 flat, so not really that bad.  I would see you my old metal giant if you really want for $25 including shipping.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on February 01, 2009, 02:33:05 AM
My new army I am playing with goes like this:

1 Beast Herd 8 Gir 9 ungor with full command
2 units of 5 hounds
5 centigor with musician
4 Chariots
1 Wargor with mark of khorne, chaos armor, great weapon, and the Bloodhunt horn.

I am then torn with my last 250 points.

Do I go with 2 more units of herds?  A unit of 4 minotaur with the mark of khorne (my choice), or a giant?  Another chariot and a herd?  Any advice?  This is for the 1000 point tournament on May 16th.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on February 01, 2009, 10:09:42 AM
I'd love to give you advice but my results are so random that it wouldn't be worth a whole lot  :-P.

After that wonderful massacre against the WoC, yesterday I took on my brother's Empire army (2 units of knights, one with wiz, one with hero - and a steam tank   - how on earth do you take that out??) and only managed to kill two guys as my army was decimated.

*sigh*.

Thanks for the giant offer, but I think I am going to take heed of what people are saying and try and hang on to get one of the really giant ones, just incase I want to get two in the long run so they won't look silly together.

Course, you could go crazy and slot some Minos of Khorne in there with those points  :-o.

Probably if I had the models, I'd try the whole exta chariot and herd idea. Chariot for that extra thorn in your opponent's side, herd for something nice and expendable that can also help out, or maybe ambush or whatever.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Warlord on February 01, 2009, 02:02:17 PM
Siberius, if you buy it that giant and send it to me, I will give you money or various bits.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on February 01, 2009, 02:04:09 PM
Do I go with 2 more units of herds?  A unit of 4 minotaur with the mark of khorne (my choice), or a giant?  Another chariot and a herd?  Any advice?  This is for the 1000 point tournament on May 16th.

I would be inclined to go with the Khorne Minotaurs.
I would imagine they'd make quite a mess at 1000 points...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on February 12, 2009, 02:50:53 PM
Siberius, if you buy it that giant and send it to me, I will give you money or various bits.

This still the case? Sorry, I didn't really catch it properly the first time, but I know the giant is still sitting there looking like he wants to jump out of the box and crush some little dudes!

Tell you what, pm me or something and let me know the kind of bits you have or such. Otherwise money is always good, hehe.

I've actually used the giant (they have another one made up at the store that I borrowed) the last three battles and he has really shown his worth. In the first he spent the whole time limping towards a steam tank, being held up by magic and march blocking until finally he was able to charge in the 5th turn and smash it to pieces with his club  8-). In the second he managed to yell at and then run down a unit of 10 chosen. He then shattered a chaos chariot apart. The third, alas, he succumbed to a cannon shot and magic missles but his death brought time for my ogres to rampage into the side of the steam tank and hack it apart.

 :happy:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on February 16, 2009, 11:26:40 PM
Hello all,

We just had our mini-tournament.  It was a three gamne series, with 1000 points.  I used Beastmen, one player had WE, another had DE, and the Lord Karnik had his Lizardmen.

I ended up with 3 massacres, the DE player had 2 massacres and one lose to me, Lord Karnik had one solid victory and two loses, and the WE player lost all of his games, but these were his first 3 real games!  He is a quick learner.

We were sorting out some serious rule issues, with the DE player needing some serious coaching on aligning for charges and the rules for aligning.  He also charged his hydra like a skirmisher once or twice.  I wasn't wathing those games so I didn't catch it.

My list?

1 Wargor - Bloodhunt horn (worked great!) GW, Chaos Armor, Mark of Khorne

1 Beastherd - 9 Gor - 12 Ungor - full command
4 chariots
6 Centigor - musician and standard
1 Giant

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 16, 2009, 11:41:17 PM
I must get a beastman army someday. It's the only one I've never, ever seen. The idea of an army of skirmishers is fascinating (when not wood elves, elves suck).

And boy do I love minotaurs. Those old models are awesomly funky.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on February 16, 2009, 11:43:39 PM
I have 12 of the minotaur and cannot wait to see the new ones!  If they really are plastic I will be one happy man!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 17, 2009, 01:01:13 AM
Oh dear, I can feel it coming over me. I've already started planning purchases in 3 months after I test my "500 points a month" thing with Eldar.

Fantasy Army #6 Coming in May.  :dry:

I need to stop being easily smitten by models.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on February 17, 2009, 09:46:24 AM
Good show Philly  8-).

I have found beasts to be one of the best armies to take on those wood elves because they seem to counter everything that makes wood elves nifty. When I use them, I pretty much charge everything head long into the woods to flush out all the expensive scouts and spellsingers and try and surround them. It's usually close, but compared to some other battles I've seen where people can never even get near them to kill them, it's kinda nice.

I'm also enjoying the centigor. I don't think I grasped until this league I did how effective they could be, especially if frenzy hits at the right moment!

And giants, well, I've fallen in love!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MiB on February 17, 2009, 10:05:57 AM
The new giant is better in every possible way.  Stay far away from the metal one.

Phil

Unless its this metal one

(http://www.solegends.com/marauder/mb07giantwd124b.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 17, 2009, 10:18:36 AM
Oh dear, I can feel it coming over me. I need to stop being easily smitten by models.

Quote, anyone ?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 17, 2009, 11:31:27 AM
Oh dear, I can feel it coming over me. I need to stop being easily smitten by models.

Quote, anyone ?

Seeing that post and then seeing this image:

Unless its this metal one

(http://www.solegends.com/marauder/mb07giantwd124b.jpg)

I'm frightened  :icon_cry:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on February 17, 2009, 12:36:23 PM
That old marauder giant was nice, but he is terribly obselete now.  I still have most of him but he just isn't that great.

Siberius:  I love the giant.  I couldn't resist taking him!

I still think we are critically flawed, especially at 1000 points.  LD7 is horrid.  At one point, Lord KArnik salamandered my generals beastherd.  I needed to roll under a 7 or run off the board.  That isn't a good situation to be in when it is only 8" between the back of the unit and the edge of the board...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Warlord on February 17, 2009, 01:09:24 PM
Siberius, if you buy it that giant and send it to me, I will give you money or various bits.

This still the case? Sorry, I didn't really catch it properly the first time, but I know the giant is still sitting there looking like he wants to jump out of the box and crush some little dudes!

Tell you what, pm me or something and let me know the kind of bits you have or such. Otherwise money is always good, hehe.

I've actually used the giant (they have another one made up at the store that I borrowed) the last three battles and he has really shown his worth. In the first he spent the whole time limping towards a steam tank, being held up by magic and march blocking until finally he was able to charge in the 5th turn and smash it to pieces with his club  8-). In the second he managed to yell at and then run down a unit of 10 chosen. He then shattered a chaos chariot apart. The third, alas, he succumbed to a cannon shot and magic missles but his death brought time for my ogres to rampage into the side of the steam tank and hack it apart.

 :happy:

I'm not sure if this means you want to trade him or not. Regardless, I may need top rescind my offer, as I have acquiring a friend's Giant to paint - so I guess we will see how I feel after that... no hard feelings if you decide to move it.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on February 17, 2009, 04:36:06 PM
It's no problem Warlord. I actually don't own it yet. I just meant it was still at the store. I decided not to buy it in the end. I was only going to buy it if you wanted it and then trade it or something. I've decided that I really should go for the plastic one for myself.

And Philly, yes indeedy. That Ld 7 is a big drawback. That's why in the end I stopped bothering with wargors and just took shamans and foe renders. The magic was really helping me out. One battle I had three movement spells, so I was really able to control the charges. My chariots became a whole new beast!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on February 17, 2009, 10:26:45 PM
You know what I found, take the wargor out of the unit.  Let him run in bhind it if need be, but he is ItP due to the MoK, so why chain him to a unit which isn't Itp?  HE is protected from whatever shooting, yet is able to avoid the panic of the herd.  He can run anywhere, charging with them or something else.  He can go one place and use the bloodhunt horn if need be.  Another time, I charged a unit of skink cohorts with the wargor by himself while the herd went after aother target.  They both pummeled their targets.  It worked really well!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on February 17, 2009, 11:32:19 PM
That sounds sensible. I was running my tzeentch wargor with my herd when I tried that out and he just kept being pursued to death so with the double shaman thing I generally started them in a unit (if there was no convenient cover or hiding places) and then moved them out to circle closeby thereafter. It worked a treat., Makes sense to do the same with the wargor I suppose.

Dunno how many more games I will play with beasts now before the new book comes out due to the gaming overload recently and the fact that I really want to use my Dark Elves more what with that new book. Why didn't I use them for this campaign??

Ah well, it was a goodly learning experience.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on February 19, 2009, 10:52:13 PM
Well I reworked my army:

1 Wargor - Heavy armor, GW, Mark of Khorne

2 Beast Herds - 8 Gor, 9 Ungor, full command

4 chariots

5 centigor - musician and shields

1 giant

I think this will give me good shooting defense, while packing alot of heavy hitters into a small army.

phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: McKnight on March 04, 2009, 11:21:19 AM
*Inquisitor McKnight walks in and looks around.

Then silently dumps his sleeping bag and belongings in a corner of the minotaur cave. *


Can I stay with you guys? My home was taken away from me...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 04, 2009, 11:39:04 AM
Sure, we saved your spot.  Just clear the dung.

 :evil:
Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 04, 2009, 05:01:37 PM
Guys,


found a stash of Old beastmen models from 5th ed if any of you are interested. Just PM.
Title: Re:
Post by: Warlord on March 04, 2009, 09:51:56 PM
You realise McKnight that the slanneshi minotaurs will take more than your home from you, right?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 04, 2009, 10:52:44 PM
We just use Titilating Delsusions on him.

He has never noticed before now, don't know why it would change anything by telling him.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 05, 2009, 10:05:41 AM
My beasts are on the shelf for now. I'm taking my revamped Dark Elves for this new league thing we are doing. I am missing the beastys already though. The ambushing... the raidering... the big scary monsters.

Ah well, hopefully in a few months we will all be salivating in joy and anticipation again. Until then, I've lent my hounds and ogres to my WoC playing sister-in-law to further kill me with.  :-)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on March 05, 2009, 11:11:53 AM
You beasts!
I got a mad idea lately to make those 20 metal late roman soldiers I ordered from Black tree just to get a look at into Norscan maraduers. Some got nice beards, and besides lacking horns (thankfully) the helmets are up for the job. Not a spamming of Icons either, but a nice small Draco standard.

Maraduers use large bases, right? Thinking of getting the chaos book and make them into sword, shield and light armour maraduers. They will look a bit more like they got some class, while I can make some lunatics using either Warlords plastic celts or the ordinary maraduers to make some flailing maniacs of Khrone.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 05, 2009, 11:37:47 AM
Yes Mathi, marauders go on a 25mm base.

I am ramping up for the New England Bash.

Current list:

1 unit of minotaur
1 Giant
4 chariots
2 units of beastmen
1 Wargor - GW, HA - no magic items at all!

Beastmen are so hard to use right now :(

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on March 05, 2009, 01:29:32 PM
the big scary monsters.

Unleash the Hydras!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Lord Karnik on March 05, 2009, 01:52:51 PM
yup philly they are so hard to use that non of us can beat you...... although give me a few more chance and games to get ahold of the new lizard man book and I will give you a run for your money.

did the Minatours peform well for you last week?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 05, 2009, 02:08:12 PM
One unit got eaten by a treeman.  The other did its job.  They did okay, but a unit and one giant will be better than two units of them.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 05, 2009, 03:28:10 PM
the big scary monsters.

Unleash the Hydras!

Hehe, first I need to buy the hydras  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on March 05, 2009, 03:32:01 PM
Just be glad the new ones are so much easier than the old ones to put together  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 05, 2009, 04:27:59 PM
Just be glad the new ones are so much easier than the old ones to put together  :icon_biggrin:
I must really suck at putting models together.
I managed to glue about 4 heads on, spent 45 minutes trying to glue some legs, glued one, dropped it and it fell off, started yelling and my GF demanded that I stopped trying to construct it

 :eusa_wall:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on March 05, 2009, 04:32:52 PM
Lets put it this way. If you'd been doing the old one they would've needed to call the police.  :engel:

Easier amusingly doesn't mean easy  :icon_cry:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on March 05, 2009, 07:37:22 PM
Just be glad the new ones are so much easier than the old ones to put together  :icon_biggrin:
I must really suck at putting models together.
I managed to glue about 4 heads on, spent 45 minutes trying to glue some legs, glued one, dropped it and it fell off, started yelling and my GF demanded that I stopped trying to construct it

 :eusa_wall:

Loctite 454 + loctite activator. Then all you need is three hands and you're set...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 06, 2009, 08:11:11 AM
I've recently taken to pinning everything.

Even down to arms and heads on infantry. So fingers crossed, when I do get one soon, I'll be alright. It also helps that my glue is kinda on the way to solidness so it sticks far faster than when you buy it new. There isn't eh waiting around for it to go tacky or anything.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on March 06, 2009, 10:29:52 AM
Rank and File pinned?

Ho ho ho sir, thou surely jest.

Come, let us sip tea freshly brewed from the brass kettle atop the Arger, and forget such frivolous nonsense.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 06, 2009, 12:15:03 PM
I pin rank and file.

Also, are you guys washing the hydras in soap and water prior to assembly?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on March 06, 2009, 12:16:00 PM
Also, are you guys washing the hydras in soap and water prior to assembly?

You Sir, are not a true beastman...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 06, 2009, 12:23:45 PM
Well I urinate on eah and every one when I am finished.

:D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on March 06, 2009, 12:37:53 PM
I bathed my Hydra in napalm.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 06, 2009, 04:45:44 PM
I pin rank and file.

Also, are you guys washing the hydras in soap and water prior to assembly?

Phil
hellz no.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 06, 2009, 05:02:51 PM
There is your problem.  There is alot of crap on a pewter model, from microscopic fillings of pewter to the chemical they use to make it fall out of the mold after casting.  If you don't wash that off it makes for a hell of a time trying to glue it on.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Captain Tineal on March 06, 2009, 05:36:40 PM
There is your problem.  There is alot of crap on a pewter model, from microscopic fillings of pewter to the chemical they use to make it fall out of the mold after casting.  If you don't wash that off it makes for a hell of a time trying to glue it on.

Phil

Having recently assemled a Scraplauncher and a Hellcannon, I can vouch for this.  It made assembling the Scraplauncher possible, and the Hellcannon actually enjoyable.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 06, 2009, 06:19:09 PM
To clarify, I'll pin rank and file if they are metal, yes. Too many years of every time you play, half the models falling apart. I am done with that now. Also, if a plastic model is liable to take a lot of weight on a thinner joint, I'll pin that too.

Once you've done it a bunch of times, it really becomes a rather fast process. Metal is a pain to drill, but not really the end of the world. I even pinned the walls of a ruined tower together recently because they were wood and bowing and that is never going to be held by wood glue without a little help. As it turned out, even that wasn't enough so I hammered in some tincy tiny tacks too.  :-)

I really must remember to bathe my minis before I put them together too, but I get so excited that I never get round to it. It's going to have to work it's way into my process because I do have paint chipping issues.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on March 12, 2009, 06:13:46 PM
I got a Beastly book in front of me... :icon_twisted:

I am so amused and thrilled! The beasts clearly got lots of nice fluff in it. Damn, Gav is not good when it comes to making good and balanced army lists, but I must say he has given the beasts breath and scope and filled the book with all kinds of nice ideas!

Now, I was also very interested in those Tigermens of Ind, who seem to be acting more like Wood elves than Beastmens. Neither good nor evil, but able to act nobly. Could it be they are very much influenced by Khrone (well, they are part tiger after all) and therefore have a sense of honour. The odd thing is they seem to extend that honour to some villages as a whole, not just to brave warriors. Do they aknowledge some villages a kind of collective honour for having defended themselves bravely in the past, against them or against other aggressors, therefore aiding them on occasion.
At the same time, if you look at how the tiger is viewed in India, it is with both fear and respect. The Indians fear the tiger, but at the same time respect it, and would therefore infuse them with this dual energy, making them both a danger but also potential saviours.

Now, here is the thing. What about wolves and bears in the old world? Well, it can be that Ulric is so tied with the wolves that respect for wolves are sort of channelled toward him, aswell as fear for them. But how about the Kislevites and their cult of Ursun and the bears?
Could this potentially mean that beastmens in the Kislev region would have bearvariants, that could potential be of a more fickle nature, and that men can sometimes get aid from them, or at least be spared, due to them worshipping the bear, aswell as fearing it?

Damn, this gets complicated... Would be cool tough to make a more bearish or wolvish beasties. Few good models, but how about a Doombear instead of a Doombull? I could buy a Confrontation mini cheap at my LGS that is somekind of wolfen shaman. Doombear of Tzeench?
Also, with some work on the heads of beasties, removing horns and replacing with some round ears, and you could have a triple mixture, Aurox/bear/man.

What base size are beastmens? I figured that if you wanted to make some really beefy Bestigors, you could use orc legs and bodies, and give them beasty or wolvish heads!

Since I got Stirland to firmly match my friends VC, and say my Wood elves to match his Dwarves (and VC) I still lack a race suitable to really match up against his Tomb kings. Those monkeybeasts of the jungle could do the trick, using orc bodies.
But I am also intrigued by what kind of beasties exist Araby! There is one heck of a large concentration of beast warbands there!

So, what is the correct basesize? 20 or 25? I feel it should be 25mm...

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 12, 2009, 06:52:25 PM
ya, its 25.
Also, a "varint" beast army would fricking rock.

goats are overrated.

*hides from philly*
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on March 12, 2009, 07:38:58 PM
Are all types of Gor mounted on 25mm bases? I ask because this topic has interested me with the thoughts of using Warlord Celts in another thread, as I have over 60 of them to be used as, amusingly enough, Chaos Marauders.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on March 12, 2009, 08:13:31 PM
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/GPR/3/index.asp
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on March 12, 2009, 08:24:26 PM
Are all types of Gor mounted on 25mm bases? I ask because this topic has interested me with the thoughts of using Warlord Celts in another thread, as I have over 60 of them to be used as, amusingly enough, Chaos Marauders.
yep.
gors and ungors and bestigors, all on 25
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on March 12, 2009, 09:52:06 PM
Cool. Thanks.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on March 13, 2009, 12:18:32 AM
Hmm... Making Nurgle Bestigors out of Orksies maybe... hmmm...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 13, 2009, 12:48:04 AM
The greatest strength of beastmen is the ability to use green stuff and almost anything and you end up having a pile of cool looking models!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on March 13, 2009, 08:28:35 AM
Oh, Nurgle orcs/Bestigor here I come!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Captain Tineal on March 13, 2009, 12:53:10 PM
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj435/CaptainTineal/OgrePics003.jpg)

Here's a great model for your DoomBear Mathi.  It is a Reaper WereBear.  He cost me about $10 Canadian.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on March 13, 2009, 01:53:42 PM
Oh my!!!

I was going to make my General a Beastlord, so I could use Ambush, but that one is just too inspiring. Doombears! Heck, I get pretty scared by looking at that fellow as it is...

Well, if I get hold of that one or similar, I am so going to have a Doombear leading the army. A pissed of one, newly awaken from his hibernation. :icon_razz:

For the moment, my scattered ideas look like this:

Beastlords Rhamizh - Slaughterers blade, Pelt of the Dark young, Crown of horns  180 points

Ceelath Angeleye - Heroine of Khrone
Scimitar of Skultar, Chaos armour, The Dark heart, shield
I have the miniature of Lileath Hesperiax, and think it could be nice if you paint her catlike. I imagine Ceelath is a Tiger/leopard woman, fierce and proud. Khrone fits the bill and is cooler than slaanesh. She and Rhamizh got a special relationship. She wants to take his place when he is to weak to lead and will constantly challenge him, and he must then subdue her to prove his power, and to prove that he is worthy of being her master... for yet some time.

Bray shaman FilleTh - Chosen of Nurgle lv2
Goretooth and Dispell scroll, Braystaff & Mark of Nurgle

Brayshaman Tuco - Lv2
Staff of Darkoth and Dispell scroll

Well those are the characters so far.

FilleTh will have a guard of bulky Pestigors made from Orcs. They are fluffwise Apebeasts from the Southland, that has joined the wandering band, and gotten better stuff. I will most likely just mould hoods over the ork heads since they look apish enough.

Then normal beast hordes, and maybe a unit of remade lizardmens, counting as Naggroth beasties... Why not make that last character a Tzeench hero instead, using Temple guards as base for a unit of Tzaangors... Oh, my... Brain goes techno soon. Beasts, where have you been all my life?!

I think I have finally found an end to my trinity of armies. Finally!

Empire, Wood elves and Beasts. Sort of cover much of the spectrum don´t they? And I have so many new awesome Empire ideas, especially the Men of the mountains army.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: fauthsie on March 23, 2009, 03:45:01 AM
I saw this on warseer so i figured would point it out. Original post found here

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189551

Quote
Looks like there just tweeking pretty much the same list over and over again now. This one looks like it's going to be wrap. With just a minor twist here or there, but there a 90% chance this is what your going to see come late November/ December.

Lords:
Beastlord
Great Bray Shaman
Doombull [magicial weapons and mutations only]
note- Lords can buy Chaos Armour for 10 pts

Hero's:
Wargor
Bray Shaman
Centigor

Core:
Beast Herd [rank up 5 wide]
Bestigors
Centigors [fast cav]
Warhounds

Special:
Tuskgor Chariots [2-1 choice]
Minotaurs [become core choice with Doombull]
Chaos Ogres
Dragon Ogres

Rare:
Chaos Giant
Shaggoth
Spawns
Gorgon - [stat line: M8 WS5 S5 T5 W5 I3 5A]

New rule change: If your General decides not to ambush, your general can have the chance for Beast Herd units to scout. [roll a D6]
1-2: Beast Herds are drunk and do not Scout
3-4: 1 unit of Beast Herds can Scout
5-6: 2 units of Beast Herds can Scout

New models: Bestigors, Mino's, Dragon Ogre, Shamans, Beastlord/Wargor & Gorgon.

Lords can take 100 pts of magic items & 100 points of Chaos Mutations/Gifts. Hero's can take up to 50 points of magical items and 50 points of Chaos Mutations/Gifts.

Some interesting new items or Chaos Mutations/Gifts: [Mutations/Gifts can only be taken once]

* banner that turns Bestigors into Raider's like Beast Herds *
* breath gift * [breaths fire 25 pts]
* extra Two Arm Mutation * [adds +2 attacks to profile 50 pts]
* extra Horn * [adds a extra attack on the charge 20 pts]
* Hoof of Speed [double M5 model 30 pts]
* Stone Skin * [+2 to your armour save 25 pts]
* Staff of Darkoth is a bound item *
* Troll Hide * [50 pts for Regeneration]
* Unholy Beast Strength [+1S for 25 pts]
* Bloodstone Braystaff* [Arcane item that gives a +1LD to Shamans and +2 MR for 50 pts]

Spell Lores: Beasts of Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are getting there own new lores. Very close to the WoC new lores with minor change to the lists. For Tzeentch player's I was told boon of Tzeentch is in there.

Inside thoughts from play tester's are: That a Doombull with Chaos Mutations can rival a Vampire Lord as a combat character now. Plus Chaos Armour & Stone Skin give him nice protection at 2+ armour save. He expects Doombull to be the most popular Lord choice!

Also by turning the Centigors into Fast Cav there no need to add flyers into a Beast of Chaos army. Between this move and the new Gorgon & Chaos Mutations, BoC should be able to compete very well in 7th edition.

I was told that they feel this list will pretty much go to print. That Games-Workshop and play testers are all happy with the end results so far. Will post more information as I get it. As I asked for the new lores so I can play test with my friends myself.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on March 23, 2009, 08:22:37 AM
Sounds really interesting!

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 23, 2009, 11:27:58 AM
That is a very cool looking list, but I will believe it when we get a little closer. 

The 2 for 1 chariot is highly suspicious to me.  The only real two for ones currently are Bolt Throwers for Goblins, DE, and Dwarves.  The two for one concept has really been reduced and includes no chariots to this point.  Granted, if anyone were to get it, Beastmen make the most sense, but still.


EDIT:  Okay, this is GeneralofChaos, so most of this could be true.  This guy is fairly inside but isn't as reliable as Harry.  The big issues still remain, how do you deal with large flying terror models.  But it looks good!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 23, 2009, 03:22:12 PM
I'm excited to see that shaggoths and dragon ogres are still around, though a bit sad at the loss of trolls. What is far more exciting is the prospect of new dragon ogre, bestigor and mino minis!! Also the idea of a centigor hero option is a welcome thing, I've always been in love with the idea since they used to have the option for Chaos Dwarf Bull Centaur heroes who were uber cool.

Kinda wish they had one more hero option though, as it does look somewhat limited. In fairness, not as much as it was, but I dunno, a mini hero or something might have been nice.

All in all, looks very promissing and makes me happy to wait and see what comes. I'm glad I didn't invest in any bestigor or dragon ogres yet though. With the new Empire plastics and these on the horizon, it's a lot to look forward to.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Dannyfave on March 23, 2009, 03:43:02 PM
Ah, he beat me to it! I was going to post that link for Philly.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on March 23, 2009, 03:43:25 PM
I love the Dragon Ogre models, so glad you keep them. I like mine in WoC  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on March 23, 2009, 03:57:33 PM
Centigors as fast cav, but no new models...if they are any good this will be expensive for us beastlords!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 23, 2009, 10:58:04 PM
10 will only run around $105.  Shouldn't need more than that.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 24, 2009, 01:49:02 AM
Looking at the list, is it saying that characters can pick both 100 points of magic AND 100 points of gifts?  It looks like it, but I am not sure.

God the Warseer crowd are a bunch of petulant little pricks eh?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Aldaris on March 24, 2009, 08:44:51 AM
They sure are. And yes, it does say that. AFAIK that's also how it works in the current WoC book.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on March 24, 2009, 09:01:52 AM
Yeah, kinda like that. I think Lord level chars get 100 magic, 50 gift. Except the Daemon Prince, who only gets 100 gift. Heroes get 50 magic, 25 gift.

God the Warseer crowd are a bunch of petulant little pricks eh?

All those years ago when I first went there, that's still the thing I remember being my second reaction.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 24, 2009, 09:17:18 AM
Fortunately I am already tooled up with 10 centigors.  :happy:

But I am guessing that much like with Dark Elves and the sudden surge of 'Glade Dark Riders' we would see a large increase in wood elf horse/beast herd kitbashed centaurs. From what I've seen, it's not even really all that hard of a conversio to do and it would keep everything plastic. If they really are that useful, I'd maybe do that to give myself the option of running a very fast army every now and again too.

Though I'll admit, even with no fast calvalry before, speed never felt like a real problem for beasts...  :evil:

(it was that stupid ld!!  :-P)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 24, 2009, 10:25:53 AM
Centigors are so good though, with the FC option they will be fantastic.  Minimum of 2, but 3 or 4 would kill!  Especially with the mark of khorne!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 24, 2009, 11:11:36 AM
I already have six too, but I am unsure how playable beasts will be without the warriors and daemons that I have traditionally used to bulk my armies.

What units can stand and rank up fully?  Just bestigor?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 24, 2009, 11:21:52 AM
Herds will be able to rank fine.  Who needs ranks anyway when you have that many manuverable elements and frenzied minotaurs with gaints and chariots backing them up?

Beasts are so flexible, the rnaking is an afterthought generally.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 24, 2009, 11:23:50 AM
I still like my ranked units, although that might get me motivated to put paint to those 30 bestigor I own..........
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 24, 2009, 03:00:02 PM
Fingers crossed that the new bestigor are as good as the beast herds were/are, look-wise.

And are you saying that you think centigors will be able to take marks now? (or maybe it said that in the link, didn't notice).

I suppose almost everything in the WoC list can, so it'd make sense from that perspective. Course, I'd love it if I can somehow take a competative totally unmarked army still, but if not, I'll come up with a way to mark them and call it something else...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 24, 2009, 03:21:21 PM
I am still lost as to why people are so obsessed with unmarked or undivided armies.  Conceptually it is't like it is more challenging. Within the fluff it actually makes much more sense for the Chaos worshipers to take a pluralistic religious outlook like the oter races.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on March 24, 2009, 03:34:01 PM
Marks are wanted for the statistic bonuses I think, rather than any nod towards characterfulness on most players parts.  I hardly ever give any of my units marks anyway.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 24, 2009, 04:02:39 PM
My only reason for wanting to be totally undivided is that I geared the thinking behind my army to be very animal, if that makes any sense. The theory is that they are just a huge pack, hunting for food and territory. Worshiping gods is above/beneath them.

Having said all that, in the league we did a few months back, in my desperation to make them actually viable at beating people, I started using marks and it gave a whole new versatility to the army that was really fun. So now I am willing to do it. I just need to find some other way to describe it, for inner-fluff reasons. I want to still feel like my army is what I want, even if it isn't...

 :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on March 24, 2009, 04:21:03 PM
I think beastmen lose their soul without acknowledging the tribal shamanism tat rules them.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on March 24, 2009, 05:12:59 PM
Exactly, my beastmen have no souls  :evil: :icon_twisted:.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Pyre on March 24, 2009, 05:21:50 PM
So here I was goofing off at work when I come across this rumored list.  George (GeneralofChaos) is usually a pretty reliable guy, and does seem to have some reliable sources/connections so I give it a read.

:evil:

Let me repeat that...

:evil:

This is a beautiful basis for a list.  If they do one or two little things, then give us a decent magic item list, I will be one happy little deviant.  Core centigors are awesome in and of themselves!  And with fast cav?!   :evil:

The mutations list sounds in line with the other books GW has released recently, and if they maintain the "now enchanted items" things then having more points that WoC makes sense.

Herds ranking up five wide was a no-brainer, but it's still huge.  With that, and some beefy characters for cheap, we can stand up against big monsters that we have no answer for right now.

Even moving chariots to special isn't so big of a deal if Doombulls become as potent as GoC hints.  Most Beastlord/GBS armies only have one or two minotaur units.  Used to be that centigors took up at least one other slot, but since they're core now that leaves two slots for four chariots, or two and a unit of DOs.

Now I'm not completely convinced that this is going to be the awesome book we're all hoping for, but at least it's a good start.  In the meantime, I'll be playing WoC at the Brawler Bash in Raleigh...


Pyre
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on April 27, 2009, 12:59:37 AM
Well nothing new on the beastmen apparently, but 3 weeks out from the NE Bash and my beastmen are ready to rumble!

We have a new visitor from the Herdstone!  Welsome Beastlord Karankawa.  He should find this place soon enough...

 :evil:

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Beastlord Karankawa on April 27, 2009, 01:15:09 AM
As a matter of fact...  :)

Thank you, PhillyT, for the pointer here!

I agree with what has been said about GoC's rumor - everything seems fine and realistic and right in line with many of GW's latest army updates.  Beasts are my main army and I have thousands of points in it - and I would really like to see it done right - but in the mean time, I get to spend time on my Empire army - so its not 100% bad.  :)

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on April 27, 2009, 02:24:21 PM
Welcome indeed fellow beast.

I don't know why I've never made it over to the herdstone really. Maybe when the new book approaches I will head on over there and join up...

Till then we just keep building on this rediculously long thread...  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 15, 2009, 12:27:05 PM
So I think I am all done with my list for tomorrow's tournament.  I am nervous of the two WE players, since they are both using atreeman and 5 dryad units.  That can be a fairly bad matchup for a herd based army.  We will see what happens!  I'll post my list here, with a little commentary.  I will also post the results of the turny with the points everyone gets on the W-E Bash thread.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on May 15, 2009, 01:21:37 PM
Sounds like boring sods. See what happens, GW, when you make the army reliant on treespirits to do any winning harm. Up for the real wood elves I say!

Put my beastly plans on hold for a while. But got a nice Rackham mini that would be exellent as a tzeench Doombull...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Beastlord Karankawa on May 15, 2009, 04:17:50 PM
Strong magic phase is usually the bane of Treemonic Legions (no ward save, auto hit magic missiles, etc).  Chariots do very well also, as long as they are able to avoid the terrain features.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on May 15, 2009, 06:28:28 PM
I couldn't get any real magic in at 1000 points.

I have plenty of chariots.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on May 16, 2009, 10:11:41 AM
I always enjoy taking on the Wood Elves with my beasts as they seem to be one of the armies that can really get in the wood elves faces and flush them out of those woods. Course, my wife doesn't take a whole Forest Spirit army so I can't really say I've faced that and it does sound scary.

Still, I suppose the plus side is that Beasty chariots still rock currently so good luck to you, don't forget your torches!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on June 29, 2009, 10:52:54 AM
Dig....ah there it is, still on page two.
I finally managed to grab a well-sized beastmen army for a really low price on ebay and will try to paint most of it until the new book arrives. The reasoning to buy them now was: Miniatures won't get cheaper until next year and even on ebay they will rise in price if the new book is any good. There will be new miniatures, but i already like the old ones. And by next year i will have a child and probably neither the time nor the money for much gaming so i better start now :)

One thing is nagging me though: The lot contains a unit of dragon ogres and one of chaos trolls.
Do you think these will stay in the beastmen book? Both are in high demand atm because WoC need them and if i sold them on ebay i could get half of what i paid for the whole army back. On the other hand if i sell them and they stay in the list i will bite my arse as i will never get them this cheap again!
What would you do fellow beasts?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on June 29, 2009, 12:33:21 PM
Sell them.  When the new book arrives, minotaur are a guarantee.  They will be more than worth the money to pick up and are much more characterful!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on June 29, 2009, 01:17:55 PM
I don't know what to say because I find it very hard to part with any model.

I got all excited for a moment when I saw our thread turn up... like maybe someone had heard something about the new book...  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on June 29, 2009, 01:52:10 PM
I guess i will at least sell the trolls, the rumored List on warseer does not contain them, WoC players are looking for them and they are insanely expensive. And they are really ugly, too!

And if they happen to be in the list i can still use my regular O&G trolls as a substitute.

Plus minotaur are the cooler beasts and will be plastic...

Now, shall i sell them with the crappy paintjob they already have, strip them or give them a quick but decent paintjob?

I might keep the dragon ogres though, i somehow like them although they look so comicesque
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on June 29, 2009, 11:42:24 PM
Sell them with the paint. Most people won't care.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on June 29, 2009, 11:45:03 PM
I might keep the dragon ogres though, i somehow like them although they look so comicesque

It's odd, but not only do I really like the sculpts of the Dragon Ogres, but they were some of my favourite models to paint.  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Shadowlord on June 30, 2009, 05:50:53 AM
New rumours over at Warseer from Harry leaves out the Dragon Ogres and Shagoths (these will be a for a second WoC release). Instead there will be more large beast variants which seems to be some sort of über-spawn (meaning slightly better and revered). Also gargoyles are mentioned.

Of course even Harry is for once not sure about the Dragon Ogres etc. but the large beast and gargoyles seem solid.
Title: Re:
Post by: Warlord on June 30, 2009, 07:51:04 AM
Finally some good (i am hoping) good gargoyle models. I have only been waiting upwards of 10 years! This is exciting news.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on June 30, 2009, 07:55:07 AM
Is there any idea as to when?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Shadowlord on June 30, 2009, 09:10:46 AM
Some say this year, others say early next.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on June 30, 2009, 10:53:40 AM
awesome, my harpies for DE can be used as gargoyles.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on June 30, 2009, 11:18:06 AM
Long time ago it was said end of this year, then Skaven in November and Beast next year.

But WD July has a hint on skaven similar to the space wolves one in the last WD, so people hope that skaven might be earlier then November (even August), which would bring the beast into this year.

But nothing confirmed yet...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on June 30, 2009, 11:45:42 AM
We are still waiting for the big announcement...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on July 07, 2009, 09:25:40 AM
So beast guys Ive been playing around with a possible list (please excuse the lack of grammar as trying to find apostrophes on this keyboard is like finding a leprechauns gold).

I am going for something totally different to my Empire and the idea of 21 attacks at str4 make me giddy (almost as giddy as 17 attacks at str6).

Heres the list.

Doombull- Mark of Khorne, Chaos armour, Crown of Horns, extra hand weapon, shield, Great weapon = 277

3x4 Minotaurs - Mark of Khorne, Extra Handweapons, Bloodkine 241 ea =  723
2x4 Minotaurs - Mark of Khorne, Great Weapons, Bloodkine 249ea = 498
2x5 Hounds 30ea = 60

4x5 Centigor - musician, shield, throwing axe 117ea = 468

2x3 Dragon Ogres - la, Great weapon 237ea = 474

= 2500, 8DD

Tell me what you think.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on July 07, 2009, 12:36:20 PM
I think the doombull can only have a magic weapon, no other magic items.
I'd scrap oone unit of dragon ogres and take spawns or chariots instead, to be able to cover your back against marchbockers.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Beastlord Karankawa on July 07, 2009, 12:37:26 PM
Decent list, but a few pointers...

Doombull may not take any magic item other than a magic weapon.

You will want to take more minotaur units with great weapons than extra hand weapons (there are plenty more high toughness units the army will struggle with than the softer squishier units).

If you could find more points for 2 more units of hounds - you will need to redirect your opponents to the exact point you want them to take advantage of your MSU and a sacrificial unit of hounds does a great job.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on July 07, 2009, 01:10:07 PM
Yeh, it always seems to me that people fear the st6 and slightly less attacks over the str4 with lots of attacks. Wounding on 2s with up to 12 attacks is nasty.

I suppose the magic items you'd have to strip off the Doombull could go toward the hounds...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on July 07, 2009, 08:47:22 PM
I find the axes of Khorgor or the Slaughterers blade are best for the Doombull.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on July 08, 2009, 02:45:24 PM
I was not impressed with any of the magic weapons I will have another look and see how it runs.

The idea of 7 str5 attacks makes me laugh inside like a maniac.

Thanks for the tips and I will post another list if I get a chance or when I get back to Honkers.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on July 08, 2009, 10:14:03 PM
I much prefer the slaughterers blade.  6 S7 attacks, with half of the wounds giving you wounds back is awesome for a model with no good armor saves and zero wards.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Merrick on July 09, 2009, 09:00:48 AM
I much prefer the slaughterers blade.  6 S7 attacks, with half of the wounds giving you wounds back is awesome for a model with no good armor saves and zero wards.

Phil

Yeh, that sounds pretty nasty.

Even if you knock a couple of wounds off it with firepower, it'll hit you so damn hard it'll regain those wounds.....

Not nice.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on July 10, 2009, 10:26:50 AM
Actually that does sound good indeed.

OK heres another list I made, well 2 lists, tell me what you think.

Doombull - Mark of Khorne, Heavy Armour, Axes of Khorgor = 291

2x4 Minotaurs, Mark of Khorne, Bloodkine, ehw = 482
1x3 Minotaurs, Mark of Khorne, Bloodkine, gws
2x4 Minotaurs, Mark of Khorne, Bloodkine, gws = 701
6x5 Hounds = 180

4 Trolls =220
4  Dragon Ogres = 316
Shagoth - gw = 303

= 2493

List 2:

Shagoth Champion, GW, Mark of Khorne = 338

7x Chariots, Mark of Khorne = 910
3x4 Minotaurs, Mark of Khorne, Bloodkine, GWs = 747
7x5 Hounds = 210

Shagoth  = 295

= 295


So Im going more for a monster army, and the idea of 2 shagoths make me cozy inside however I think I prefer the 1st list.

Moving location tomorrow so not sure if Ill be able to check the net at the new locale. Eitherway I like the idea of Minotaurs...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on July 10, 2009, 12:16:47 PM
Never take the bloodkine other than for the unit with the Doombull.  Too expensive with no payoff really.

Way too many hounds.  Take more herds.  They are far better at blocking frenzied chargers.

Concerning the Shaggoth:  They are not good.  At all.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on July 10, 2009, 12:24:32 PM
Is the beast army list out already?  :Ohmy:

Do I have to crap my pants already?  :mellow:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on July 10, 2009, 01:18:34 PM
No, not even close...

:(

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on July 10, 2009, 03:01:47 PM
@bies: as Philly said: less hounds, more herds. Less bloodkines.

Two shaggots seems not so strong, but i have read of people playing a shaggoth champion and a giant and doing well with this setup. (Rest of the list was mixed, herds, hounds, chariots, minotaurs, centigors, dragonogres iirc)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on July 10, 2009, 03:42:47 PM
Giants are just too good.  They are a must take over Shaggoth.

They can button things down like nothing else, will save 200 points over two shaggoth, and are better at dealing with leadership issues.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on July 11, 2009, 02:37:17 PM
Well I was looking at the woc book and you can get 3 of the beasts for cheaper anyway.

So I have wifi for the next 2 nights and I've fallen in love with my I touch all over again. Will post a revised list tonight.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Warlord on August 19, 2009, 06:40:15 AM
Does anyone happen to know if the Beastmen Chariot comes with the normal plastic boar heads as well as the metal ones?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on August 19, 2009, 07:40:55 AM
I bought my chariots second hand, so i am not 100% sure, but i think they come with plastic boar heads.
Reason 1: One chariot was missing a metal head and had a regular boar head instead.

Reason 2: I once bought a pile of BoC bits and it had a couple of plastic boar heads and tusks in it.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on August 19, 2009, 12:31:08 PM
Yes, they have the standard boar kit.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on August 19, 2009, 06:20:38 PM
Thanks for reviving us Warlord. It's been a bit depressing down here in the put of beasts since army book production seems to have ended.  :-P
Title: Re:
Post by: Warlord on August 19, 2009, 10:05:06 PM
No problem. Though I must confess, my intentions for the beastmen chariot are purely Orc based. See the 'new' Orc shaman on boar model doesnt come with a regular plastic boar head. And I had decided I was going to use that more hairy metal boar head on the body of a rhinox to make a really huge boar for my Orc Warlord. Makes him look very impressive. So not wanting the boar body to go to waste, I was wondering how I could acquire another head. Then, looking at the chariot, I think it would look good as a savage orc chariot... So yeah, not that beast-centric, sorry.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on August 20, 2009, 09:36:33 AM
No problem. For compensation, i have an orc boar chariot with detachable crew which can act as a beastman chariot.  :happy:
Title: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Aldaris on September 29, 2009, 02:58:27 AM
A friend recently mentioned to me that Beasts of Chaos should, by all rights, be the most rocking armybook on the planet, for one reason: core chariots. Cheap core chariots. He basically asked: why not just take dozens of chariots at 2000 points, led by chariot-mounted characters? Shouldn't this just roll pretty much over everything? And if so, why isn't this build dominating tournament play, aside from the costs involved?
I scratched my head, muttered "good point" and added something about bunkering up behind difficult terrain where the buggers can't really touch you. But let's face it, you'll not be able to bunker up a 2000 points army behind terrain. And even with plenty of shooting, magic and warmachines,  a dozen or more chariots should hit your line by turn 3 at the latest, followed by a second wave of equal proportions. Anybody? Why is this not THE killer build in Fantasy every rich kid with a grim determination to WAAC is using?
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: patsy02 on September 29, 2009, 03:49:54 AM
Seeing as Beastmen chariots are metal, running an army of them would only prove that the player is A) rich, and B) a gosh-darned poopy head. Adding the unsatisfactory aesthetic value of said chariot models, one can also conclude that said player C) also doesn't give a shit about how his army looks(see B.)

Technically speaking though, I don't know.

Too far!
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: jlutin on September 29, 2009, 03:52:46 AM
Stagger your line, flee then counter charge.
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Dunrik on September 29, 2009, 03:52:48 AM
lots of lots of BTs? Dwarfs with 8 of them, all with WS4 and most with S7?
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Aldaris on September 29, 2009, 04:11:49 AM
Dwarfs can field 8 BTs? OK, that aside. Might be one possible build to stop this.
As for staggering your line: You might bag a few that way, yes. But who has enough infantry to counter significant parts of a, say, 15 chariot charge, followed by ten more with that method? Skaven possibly. And fleeing is risky at best, because he has enough to freely choose his angles and therefore, your flee direction. You'll flee through your units, causing panic.
I really don't see how this could realistically be stopped, aside from freak accidents.

Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Finlay on September 29, 2009, 04:16:50 AM
Does Philly T not use a heavy chariot army?
All Khorne marked?
I think it is fairly brutal.
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Dunrik on September 29, 2009, 04:21:05 AM
I believe he said that once (or more)...
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Siberius on September 29, 2009, 04:29:11 AM
It's certainly better to run them in numbers. Something that I haven't had the luxury of doing. But even the step up from one to two I have found to be quite surprisingly effective.

One chariot always dies, 90% of the time on the first turn. I've found two chariots to start freaking out the opponent, especially if you are lucky enough to keep one or both out of sight of war machines.

I can only imagine the joy of running 3 or 4...

As to a whole army, I suppose it would be interesting to try once or twice, and with quite a funky flavour to it too, but might end up being like gunlines, despised and rejected by all others.

I'll never try it cos I'll never have enough chariots.

ps. Should this be in the Counts Tavern instead? Too Warhammery for the BT.
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Aldaris on September 29, 2009, 04:30:21 AM
Yeah, but he mentioned using like 10 chariots or so, not 20. Still pretty damn brutal.

Oh, and I wanted this to be in the CT, but I accidentally posted here. I'll see if I can find a mod to move it.
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Siberius on September 29, 2009, 04:35:17 AM
Especially marked with Khorne...

You know what I'd like to see... a battle of Stegadons vs Beast Chariots...

That would be an epic battle report... (or horribly confusing and boring...)
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Pistol Pete on September 28, 2009, 09:48:18 PM
TK can field CHARIOT UNITS as core... that's some kind of nasty (especially given thier terrific support spells).  I *hate* steamroller TK armies.
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Uryens de Crux on September 28, 2009, 09:54:22 PM
In the old Chaos book I ran a chariot/cav Khorne army with 3 chariots, all ridden by champions and 7 knights

The chariots looked worrying, but really would get chewed up by anything that held its ground, or had good shooting, or good magic missile spells.

Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: phillyt on September 28, 2009, 11:26:40 PM
Yes I run a chariot heavy list.  I run a minimum of 4, but have used 15 before.  It really was hideous, particularly if you are using khorne under the current book since it ends up giving you about 17 DD.

There are plenty of issues though.  It is slow until it can charge, it is easy to pop with only T4 and AS4, and the leadership os 7 with rerolls.  Also, the only character you can field is the general because nobody else can be in a chariot.

Certainly one of the best Beastman lists, but certainly not overpowered.

Phil
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on September 29, 2009, 07:22:40 AM
Kill the general!

Park the steam tank in the close vicinity!

let some of the poor fools charge him and pop on his metal arse!

I imagine my great cannons crew screaming something like

"concentrate the fire on that super star destroyer chariot of that beastman chieftain!"

They are not bad but suffer immensly against certain armies, against demons or undead for example, so many fear checks.

BUT against HE they are priceless....ASF in your shining silvery buttocks!
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: phillyt on September 29, 2009, 12:07:21 PM
Actually, the general is an afterthought.  He only raises their leadership to 8.  You have to tak him though.

A better list includes heaps of herds to ambush.  8 chariots and 8 units of beastmen is about right.

Phil
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on September 29, 2009, 12:30:24 PM
I am not sure if that list is still legal but there was one special character that allowed Bestigors in herd formation and those as Khorngors were pretty mean.

Still 8 herds and 8 chariots have great problems dealing with one stank.



I advocate that there should be no 1+ armour save in this game to revive infantry.
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: phillyt on September 29, 2009, 02:09:55 PM
Beatslord i S7.  He doesn't have much trouble with the stank.

Plus if everything else gets eaten, who cares about the stank?

Dragons give the list the most trouble.

Phil
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on September 29, 2009, 02:27:26 PM
If he makes his Terror check and if his herd is not charged by the stank, how did you fare with beasts against the big three ? I think demons and VC are a pain to fight as beastmen.
Title: Re: A question about the beastmen...
Post by: phillyt on September 29, 2009, 04:39:06 PM
Chariots marked with khorne have frenzy, so no terror.  The impacts on the Stank suck, but the return hits and the general will generally be more than enough to pulverize the Stank.

Demons wouldn't be bad.  The general has regenerate and the slaughterer's blade (4+ per wound to get a wound back, great weapon).  He actually does okay against greater demons and pounds heralds.  VC stuggles to win combat against all those herds and chariots converging, can't get crap for magic off due to 11 DD in the balance list and 17 in the all chariot list.  Brettonia is sort of hard, but you just force them to charge the skirmished herds and counter charge with chariots.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: skinkslayer on October 05, 2009, 10:36:38 AM
Well, I just recently got back into warhammer for a year's hiatus, and it was a bit depressing to see this thread dying.
If its cool, I'm gonna post some of my first beasts models here for feadback. I posted them over at the herdstone too, but this forum is far better in my humble opinion.
Also, does anyone know of beasts rumuors or a release date?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on October 05, 2009, 10:52:36 AM
If its cool, I'm gonna post some of my first beasts models here for feadback. I posted them over at the herdstone too, but this forum is far better in my humble opinion.

You can post your models in the B&P, since you value this place so highly...
 
Of course, it's only until you come to your senses and start Empire.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 05, 2009, 11:51:26 AM
And this thread is far from dead, we are all anxiously awaiting the arrival of our new book.  It is just sporadic right now...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on October 05, 2009, 04:00:48 PM
We're not so much dead as hibernating...

Once those rats get all over and done with (are they not out already??), we shall return!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on October 05, 2009, 05:33:02 PM
really, we are after rats?

sweet.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Perambulator on October 05, 2009, 05:46:59 PM
There's a funny one-liner that needs to follow up the previous three posts but for the life of me I can't seem to come up with one...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Captain Tineal on October 05, 2009, 05:49:34 PM
I'll save you P man!

*puts on his best Monty Python voice*  I'm not dead yet, I don't want to go in the cart.  I think I'm getting better, I'd like to go for a walk.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Perambulator on October 05, 2009, 06:25:53 PM
Thank you, Cpt. T. That will do nicely.  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 05, 2009, 10:37:52 PM
Yes, beastmen and rats were jockeying for position.  They got the skaven models wrapped so they put them out first (they were always suposed to be first but they had some issue with the models or something).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on October 05, 2009, 10:51:38 PM
do we have a schedule?
early next year?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 05, 2009, 10:55:50 PM
Tyranids come out in January.  Beastmen would come out a couple months after that I would assume.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on October 06, 2009, 12:41:35 PM
*drools wantonly*
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Boldrick on October 06, 2009, 08:28:52 PM
Tyranids come out in January.  Beastmen would come out a couple months after that I would assume.

Phil
February AFAIK
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Feanor Fire Heart on October 06, 2009, 08:42:54 PM
hmm i think it would be pretty cool if the beaties got some new units and an overhaul.  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 06, 2009, 09:10:33 PM
Beastmen in February?  That is awfully soon considering there have been no incoming info or model leaks.  The Tyranids are confirmed for January according to GW's own Incoming so I doubt it will be only a month later for the Beasts.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: t12161991 on October 06, 2009, 10:22:24 PM
If Tyrries are January I would guess Beasts are April. Following the 3 month split pattern. Maybe late March.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 06, 2009, 10:26:13 PM
That doesn't necessarily hold true.  Space Wolves come out in October, then Skaven in what, November or december?  Followed by Tyranids in January.  Beasts could fall anywhere between February and March I would assume.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: t12161991 on October 07, 2009, 01:38:33 AM
Skaven are Nov. 7.

Normally it's 2-3 months though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on October 07, 2009, 08:20:32 AM
Forget about that 2-3 month window that we have been used too. Those who follow Bell of Lost Souls might have read the post about GW:s information lock-down policy that have become extremely severe lately.
They try not to let ANYTHING of substance out until maybe a month or so before, claiming it will create a bigger and better suprise and vow effect among us customers.

I just find it annoying.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 07, 2009, 11:15:14 AM
Fantasy and 40K releases used to follow their own schedules too.  Now they are linked.  They don't allow them to overlap.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on October 07, 2009, 12:47:40 PM
So as not to take focus away from one another. This will also help keep drag people over to the other game systems.
Sneaky gits!  :dry:

Well, I better not get myself dragged into Skavens, even if it seems a bit fun. A massed infantry army. How about a wierd twist like a disciplined Guinea pig army, fighting in checkerboard formations, roman legion style!  :icon_razz:

Shame it will take aeons until I would have finished that army since you need so many minis!

No, I better keep my focus, maybe get a second helblaster or even a Steamtank for my Empire. Get more orky stuff and Guard stuff, and start collecting some Lord of the Rings since my daughter wanna play with Bilbo and the dwarfs.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 09, 2009, 10:36:51 AM
Empire can almost out infantry skaven.  They are actually better in combat and are about the same price.  Not much reason to dig into them really.

Buy more beasts!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on October 13, 2009, 07:30:02 PM
Out of interest, did anyone notice that AoW is working on a Minotaur Lord.

Can't say he looks overly Lordly to me, but he looks like a kick butt minotaur non-the-less...

This link might work:

http://www.arena-deathmatch.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=627&f=28&sid=7738932ec14aebe9f501845a332d8e34 (http://www.arena-deathmatch.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=627&f=28&sid=7738932ec14aebe9f501845a332d8e34)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Aldaris on October 13, 2009, 07:49:54 PM
I like the minotaur model, but as you said, as a regular one. He looks too plain for a Lord. Besides, I don't like the axe. A nasty single-bladed one, or at least one with slimmer blades, would look better imo.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 13, 2009, 09:08:48 PM
Looks sweet, and by the time Felix is done, it will look VERY lordly.

At least Felix is the one taking this one up.  The Beastlord is an average model, done by the B team.

I am looking forward to the Avatars of War rules for him!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Shadoweyed on October 13, 2009, 09:36:25 PM
But I love the beastlord. The AoW Beastlord is one of the reasons I even thought about beasts.  :icon_redface:

-Shadoweyed
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 13, 2009, 09:44:23 PM
It's okay, but it isn't as good as most of the other models from AoW.  Felix didn't make it, which is the biggest reason.

He is doing this one, so lets get this stuff rollin'!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Otaku on October 21, 2009, 06:34:33 AM
Just a heads up. I put two Minotour blisters up in the trading post.  Im prabably a fool. if I painted and converted them I could probably get a lot more for them on Ebay.  Mounted Vamp, ungars, and some deamons too
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on October 21, 2009, 11:12:10 AM
Beasts are in dire need of a new book though arn't they?  At least to sort out the ranking issues etc

I have a skaven army all up and running but beasts really are different arnt they?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 21, 2009, 11:14:41 AM
Yeah, beasts are struggling due to the loss of WoC items and support units.  They need a new book.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on October 21, 2009, 12:15:34 PM
I have lost all interest in WOC and daemons to be honest.

I have several thousand points of both [enough to easily field 3500 daemons and 5000 warriors now] but they are all boxed away never to see the battlefield again unless the books change.

I liked chaos when it was one list.  I don't really dig the split army thing.

Beasts really don't suit my style on their own either, so I think I will be staying away from them too  :icon_cry:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: MrDWhitey on October 21, 2009, 12:25:37 PM
I'd let you use both in one army.  :-D
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Boldrick on October 21, 2009, 12:38:06 PM
I have lost all interest in WOC and daemons to be honest.

I have several thousand points of both [enough to easily field 3500 daemons and 5000 warriors now] but they are all boxed away never to see the battlefield again unless the books change.

I liked chaos when it was one list.  I don't really dig the split army thing.

Beasts really don't suit my style on their own either, so I think I will be staying away from them too  :icon_cry:
Same problem here.My favourite army (HoH) became two armies I don't like.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Warlord on October 21, 2009, 01:40:11 PM
Yeah, I like the beast and mortal mix (didn't touch demons). No idea when I will ever paint those Chaos Warriors.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on October 21, 2009, 01:54:25 PM
I was primarily warriors, with daemons and beasts providing essential secondary features.  I can win with daemons quite easily, but it feels dirty!

Warriors on their own have no soul.  I like my armies to be able to play as I intend them to do so.  I have been known to spend huge sums making it so.  Like my army of blastmasters and other metal sonic weapons my 40 emperors children have.  And two nice forge world dreads.

Im happy to spend money if they are nice models and fit into my style of play.  Once an army is changed totally, they don't always match up to how I want them to play  : :eusa_wall:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on October 21, 2009, 02:58:39 PM
Well, I preferred  undead as a combined force, with Nagash at its head....
 
 
But why such a fugly model....
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Finlay on October 21, 2009, 03:02:05 PM
I always thought it would be cool to have Beasts with a demon prince general who they all worshipped.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 21, 2009, 03:16:25 PM
They will still have that option.

I prefer the three divided, but with some options of inclusion (similar to 40k).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on October 21, 2009, 03:56:25 PM
I'd like that too. I probably wouldn't use it personally, but it makes sense to allow some sort of combining. I guess it would take a lot of thinking on GW's part though to make sure it could be done without any unfortunate combos etc coming up so maybe that's why they stayed away from it.

I'd definitely let someone use combined lists in a friendly environment though, afterall, in big battles that is often how Chaos comes at you...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on October 21, 2009, 04:02:09 PM
My biggest issues with chaos being split is in all of the major background battles against chaos, it was a combined force.  Sure smaller battles have occured between one of the 3 seperate armies, but most of them have been added in the new edition.

I had a combined undead army also, I have a Nagash clown too, its on this website somewhere!  I did have about 10,000 points of these, but over the years I have sold most of them to new undead players because I didn't like how the army was headed, and a skelly model is more or less a skelly regardless of edition :)

The old idea where units became special and rare was more or less acceptable.  I do realise they will sell more models how it is now, to more people, so I can't really critasize the business strategy.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Aldaris on October 21, 2009, 05:06:47 PM
There is no real combining of the codices in 40K as such. You have an entry in the Chaos Space Marine codex for lesser Demons and a greater Demon. Both generic, with no special (god-specific) abilities. They cannot even be marked. You can not take units  from the demons codex when playing CSM or vice versa.

So they are pretty much taking the same road in both systems - strictly dividing Demons and their mortal counterparts into separate armies. The only crossover armies still possible involve the Inquisition codices, as they are pretty old and haven't been revised yet. They can be combined with IG or Marines. I don't know if there are exceptions in Apocalypse as I have never played that, but in normal 40K, there are no options of inclusion.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 21, 2009, 05:11:52 PM
Thats what I am referring to Aldaris.  A generic beastman or a generic marauder.

As for big armies with the three combined, that is no difference than HE, Empire, and Dwarves being combined to face chaos in large battles.  Nothing saying the three chaoses aren't allied while remaining seperate.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Moxer on October 30, 2009, 08:48:43 AM
Small update on the beasts:

release is confirmed to be in February, preorders starting on January 4th. So we should see some pictures already this year  :smile2:

Taken from a new warseer BoC rumours thread that can be found here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228039

Edited to purge typos.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: phillyt on October 30, 2009, 10:56:37 AM
Oh yeah!  Now we are talking!

Rumors look interesting.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (and all things Beastly)
Post by: Siberius on October 30, 2009, 06:50:04 PM
Woo hoo! Now we can truly begin to revel in the spotlight shed upon our unholy personages!

I'm not sure what I think about some of the stuff. I'm pretty sure I'll be fairly excited whatever happens, but I'd be a bit sad to lose trolls. There was no mention of chaos ogres in that either. Hmm.

The idea of the a flying unit and a scouting option is intriguing, if perhaps a little unnecessary for us what with the skirmishing and ambushing already in there.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on October 30, 2009, 10:36:41 PM
I am still not sure how we will deal with large flying monsters...

Chaos ogres never fit in the beastmen, but trolls sort of did.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on October 30, 2009, 10:55:39 PM
They do sound funky but I am going for dwarfs as my third army now and no matter how cool the beasts becomes, I doubt GW can sway me from my chosen path now.

Still, it sounds funky!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on October 30, 2009, 10:57:30 PM
Large flying monsters, hmm. Well I suppose every army has to have a weakness. As it is, against most armies a big flying monster isn't all that worth taking. Maybe it's nice for them to have someone to play who won't slaughter it on the first turn  :wink:.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on October 31, 2009, 12:51:31 AM
interesting.
Think I will lay off the Skaven and start painting up some beasts again.
God knows I might actually get something done by february...

Centigor moving to core = we need plastic centigor models.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on October 31, 2009, 12:57:28 AM
I fear the Glade Riders may once again be the conversion unit of choice in the coming months...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on October 31, 2009, 12:59:39 AM
Bah!
I can't do GS well enough to do those conversions that I have seen.

I also hope that the Demon prince is a viable option.
Scouting herds sounds pretty sick. I hope they get slings, javelins, or throwing axes.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on October 31, 2009, 01:09:48 AM
You really don't need many centigor.  Chaos hounds will be doing most of the heavy lifting.  10 centigor is the maximum I would use.

Free those points up for minotaurs!

RAAAR!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on October 31, 2009, 03:10:03 PM
I hope they get slings, javelins, or throwing axes.

If they do that, I am totally 100% back behind the scouting herd option  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on October 31, 2009, 05:33:05 PM
You really don't need many centigor.  Chaos hounds will be doing most of the heavy lifting.  10 centigor is the maximum I would use.

Free those points up for minotaurs!

RAAAR!

Phil
Centigors are way cooler than hounds though!

although plastic minotaurs = drooltastic. I really think it does...

We will see a lot of doombull armies I imagine.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on October 31, 2009, 11:24:24 PM
Yeh, it seems likely.... which would be interesting, almost like a second wave of ogres... a battle between the two armies would be somewhat epic...

And yet, I'm not gonna go for it myself, I love the herds and hounds too much. I just like to use minotaurs as a support unit to freak out my enemies and draw fire whilst the rest of the army surrounds them.... mwuhahaha!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 01, 2009, 01:30:34 AM
I run around 16 minotaur and still have piles of herds.

I have roughly 21 mintoaur, but am looking forward to getting the plastics.

Minotaur versus ogres are interesting, and doombull armies are not uncommon, despite what you boys seem to think...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 01, 2009, 10:03:09 AM
I guess when I hear you say doombull army, for some reason my brain clicks to all minotaur... which really it doesn't have to be does it. Bit of a mental block there on the name.

I only have 6 minos right now so even though I'm not going to pile half my army with them, I can easily get some plastics and use them too. (how am I going to be able to resist anyways???).

If they're that cool looking... maybe I'll get more just incase...  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 01, 2009, 10:58:47 AM
Are they making plastic harpies? I need them for my dark elves!


Oh, and the 'gorgon' sounds like the weird, iron bull version. Strange choice.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 01, 2009, 12:27:53 PM
They better not make plastic harpies after the pain in the butt it's being to make my own...!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 01, 2009, 08:38:48 PM
I doubt they will be anything like the harpies of the DE IF they make them.

As for Minotaur  versus ogres, it is actually a pretty bad day for the ogres.  Minotaur are better than all but the maneaters, add the better chaos giant and the herd and chariot support and the only thing Ogres have is gutmagic and the tyrant (who is better than the doombull).

Sad really.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 01, 2009, 10:10:56 PM
I doubt they will be anything like the harpies of the DE IF they make them.

If they are winged humanoids of approximately the same size, they will be perfect.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 01, 2009, 10:20:28 PM
What I mean is they won't make them like the ones for the DE.  If they make them, which I doubt they will, they will most likely be 25mm models and large.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 01, 2009, 10:24:22 PM
Sure, but they will be OK for use with dark elves too.

Because the current ones are awful, and there's no easy way to replace them. Even including non-GW stuff.


I bet they do make them. They make all kinds of crazy stuff in plastic these days (like how there are now two kinds of plastic empire archers available at once).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 01, 2009, 10:29:35 PM
I don't think they will make any sort of harpy thing for beasts.  They removed the harpies from Chos a long time ago, replacing them with furies.  If anything, they will include furies in the list, which I doubt.

More likely they will not include any sort of model like that.  The army has other needs, not more fast moving skirmishing models.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 01, 2009, 10:33:05 PM
Harpies, furies, close enough. Except furies is a bit close to furries, which is really bad.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 01, 2009, 10:36:37 PM
Agreed!

I think people are reading into things though.  They are making plastic bestigor and Minotaur, along with loads of new pewters.  I doubt they are making NEW furies if they were to include them in the list.

Demon things don't fit the list really, nor do naked DE maiden things.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 01, 2009, 11:04:28 PM
I am very interested in the Minotaurs and Gorgon. Definitely will find a place in my Chaos Dwarf army.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 01, 2009, 11:11:08 PM
Quote from: PhillyT
Demon things don't fit the list really, nor do naked DE maiden things.

But... harpies are beasts. Beastial beasts.


...Gorgon. Definitely will find a place in my Chaos Dwarf army.

More chaos-dwarf-y than beast-y, really.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 01, 2009, 11:59:52 PM
I'm very excited about the whole centigor hero thing.

I miss the days of unusual hero slots. They've made it so boring these days.

I used to run a Bull Centaur and Hobgoblin level hero all the time in my chaos dwarfs, it was very cool.

Wood Elves have it nice in the customization of their kindreds, but even they could have maybe a dryad hero level character, just for variety. Most races seem to have a choice between 2 or three options, Empire included if you ignore engineers  :-P.

I'd love to see more hero and even lord variation in armies in the future.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 03, 2009, 03:49:40 PM
Some interestng info:

Not sure if already posted but I found this off warhammer forums.
Beastmen due out at the start of March.
*** Herds/Ungors are still mixed and rank up 5 wide. Champions no longer confer a +1 LD bonus - however the majority of beast units and characters have went up 1 in LD.
*** Ambush is still available to the herds.
*** Minotaur lords are still available and have access to Beast mutations. Makes minotaurs core.
*** Chariots are now special choices but 2 for 1.
*** Centigors are core and fast cav however you still need to take gors/ungors/bestigors to fill up your core slots.
*** Gorgon is the new monster in the Rare spots.
*** Centigor Hero available
*** Beastlords with LD9
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 03, 2009, 04:29:22 PM
I think a ld hike would make sense. After all, beasts are on the whole mindless killers. Maybe ungors should keep their leadership as they seem a bit more self-aware and goaded along in battle. It wouldn't kick in very often in battle, but could be important and quite reasonable if the gors all get cut down in close combat, the ungors would be much more likely to scarper as they didn't want to be their in the first place  :-P.

Good to hear that it seems like much will stay the same. Hope the chariots are 2 for 1 as they really fit the bill, and the option to take more every now and again would be cool.

As I keep saying, yay for the centigor hero!

Does the gorgon seem weird to anyone else? They just seem like an odd fit to me. In an army that is all fur and horns, they seem out of place. I'd kinda think the same about harpies too, especially with harpies being more cliff dwelling and beasts being more forest dwelling. I think the Shaggoth or some variation huge beast thing thereof would fit better... but eh...

I suppose if I do find I don't like it, I'll probably just buy a shaggoth and use the gorgon rules  :-P.

Can anyone else foresee huge-style moaning  if our ld goes up like that?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 03, 2009, 05:02:07 PM
Well the gorgon is the huge bull type, not the medusa type.

Rumor has it that the pet beast spawn will give units d3 impact hits at S5.  The gorgon will get d6

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 03, 2009, 06:45:31 PM
There's a huge bull gorgon??  :?

*goes to google*

I can't find any bull gorgons... where are they from?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: wissenlander on November 03, 2009, 08:20:05 PM
And yet, I'm not gonna go for it myself, I love the herds and hounds too much. I just like to use minotaurs as a support unit to freak out my enemies and draw fire whilst the rest of the army surrounds them.... mwuhahaha!

You suck. :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 03, 2009, 09:28:09 PM
Hehe.

In fairness, it's a bonus when they actually make it across the board. They cause total carnage. I've just thought of them as my 'hammer' too many times, only to find my hammer is awful flimsy, so I try not to panic so much these days when they drop like flies.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on November 04, 2009, 12:11:56 AM
is anyone concerned they are getting doneRIGHT before the new edition?

Or will it be done with the new edition in mind (like the skaven template thing)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 04, 2009, 01:03:05 AM
*crosses mental fingers*

Who got done just before last edition?

I feel wood elves were close but I forget now. If so, they held up fairly well through to this edition so we can but hope I suppose...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: t12161991 on November 04, 2009, 01:04:39 AM
Woodies and Dwarfs.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 04, 2009, 01:17:08 AM
They are going the way of 40k I wager.  The new edition will not have a significant effect on the army books.  It is what it is.

I am not afraid!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 04, 2009, 07:26:14 AM
I put up some examples of my beasts i am currently painting (Ok, most of them have been painted for a while, they are my mordheim warband). You can find then in the B&P, i a looking for ideas how to do their bases.
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=31145.0 (http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=31145.0)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 04, 2009, 08:50:19 AM
There's a huge bull gorgon??  :?

*goes to google*

I can't find any bull gorgons... where are they from?

Primarily from D&D, however also depicted like that in other games too, such as Heroes of Might and Magic, Castlevania, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_(Dungeons_&_Dragons) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_(Dungeons_&_Dragons))

Oh yeah, and I'm post 1000 of this thread!  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 04, 2009, 01:02:26 PM
I think the bull gorgon is originally from one of those demented bestiaries from the middle ages.

It's still an odd choice for a beastmen army, especially since it hasn't shown up in the warhammer world before.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on November 04, 2009, 01:26:57 PM
He has probably been busy playing poker with the Robohorse, the Varghulf and the Engine of the Gods.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 04, 2009, 01:53:36 PM
If i were any good at drawing i would so draw up that scene!  :lol:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 04, 2009, 03:17:21 PM
They probably just picked a name from mythology.  They just wanted a big nasty creature.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 04, 2009, 03:17:48 PM
I say keep the shaggoth... but make him more interesting! Give him more options or something.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 04, 2009, 03:24:21 PM
They'd need to change the name though. Seriously, shaggoth? It's just a dragon ogre lord isn't it?

What about a chimera? What ever happened to those?


I think one of the rumor lists mentioned the thing in the woods from Mordheim (based on the dressed-up lion from the brotherhood of the wolf) being in the list. Which would be good. Provided it wasn't a special character.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on November 04, 2009, 03:27:25 PM
They'd need to change the name though. Seriously, shaggoth?

Contrary to the first impression, it's not an encouragement to have intercourse with angsty adolescents.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 04, 2009, 03:35:42 PM
Well the rules for the gorgon are fantastic, I think the name is fine though.  If it is bull thing, that fits perfectly with BEastman fluff.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 04, 2009, 03:37:50 PM
Well the rules for the gorgon are fantastic

What are the rules?


Quote
If it is bull thing, that fits perfectly with BEastman fluff.

If it's a metal bull though, it's more like something the chaos dwarfs should have.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 04, 2009, 03:41:22 PM
No, it won't be a metal bull.  It will be a big freaky bull which fogs things to death.  Apparantly.

The rules I saw are: Almost all 5's for stats, powerful breath weapon, d6 S5 impact hits on the charge, M6 - 8, immune to terrain penalties (possibly).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 04, 2009, 03:49:47 PM
Oh. Fair enough then. They should really have picked a less confusing name though.

Let's hope they make a decent model for it. It ought to be a hard thing to get wrong.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 04, 2009, 03:52:05 PM
And it should be pretty easy to scratch build.  BEastmen are like the Chaos Marines of fantasy.  Throw a pile of tentacles down and you have a fine conversion!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on November 04, 2009, 03:53:08 PM
Wait, Beasts were confirmed while I was gone?  :icon_neutral:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 04, 2009, 03:56:08 PM
February.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 04, 2009, 04:01:57 PM
And it should be pretty easy to scratch build.

There's no point in adding a new thing if there's no miniature! I want them to make a giant bull monster.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 04, 2009, 04:14:06 PM
Oh they will make a model.  This isn't 40k!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 04, 2009, 05:28:39 PM
Easy for you to say Philly but where are the Forsaken minis? Where is the War Shrine?  :-P

And it better not have tentacles...

I like my beasts with hair and tusks!



What about a chimera? What ever happened to those?

I'm guessing that they all ran off to the chaos wastes during the Storm of Chaos and were magically turned into hairy male gorgons.  :|

I liked chimeras. I think I had one, probably the same one you have, Rufus. If you have one. I seem to remember seeing that you did, but I may be confused.

Course, making a mini big enough and cool looking enough for such a freaky monster would be some tough stuff.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on November 04, 2009, 05:30:04 PM
I liked chimeras. I think I had one, probably the same one you have, Rufus. If you have one. I seem to remember seeing that you did, but I may be confused.

Apparently so :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 04, 2009, 05:31:35 PM
Yes, I am that with it!
 :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 04, 2009, 08:48:43 PM
They produced a pile of models for the warriors.

It looks like the herdstone and the gorgon are the two big ones, then the minotaur and bestigor are the small ones interms of new models.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 04, 2009, 08:53:13 PM
They may have produced a pile of models... but they did do their whole thing of redoing models they already had rather than supplying models for units that don't have models.

I'm looking forward to plastic bestigor. I just have always liked the idea of them without liking the price tag so I've never actually got any...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 04, 2009, 09:01:36 PM
My point was that they aren't doing as many models for beastmen, so it isn't like they will leave too many models undone.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 04, 2009, 09:57:32 PM
Got ya!

As an aside, has anyone ever played against anyone who used forsaken? I'm curious as to what others have done. I gave some gor minis to Rover and said maybe she should kinda make them from that, maybe with marauder heads and weird apendages...

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 04, 2009, 10:15:58 PM
I liked chimeras. I think I had one, probably the same one you have, Rufus. If you have one. I seem to remember seeing that you did, but I may be confused.

I do have one. It's a smallish chimera that I use as a fell bat in an undead army. Which is a sad end for a noble beast that was pretty tough in fourth edition...

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 04, 2009, 10:26:03 PM
Yeh, we had that chimera. I don't think we do anymore... where do these things disappear to? Wolfy had so much stuff that just vanished, including a whole load of horse archers, the ice queen, outriders...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 05, 2009, 02:14:43 AM
Chimera were nasty in 5th too.

Manticore with breath weapons!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 06, 2009, 10:39:30 AM
I notified my wife that the new beastman book was coming.

Her eyes started glazing over and she said "How much is this going to cost?"

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on November 06, 2009, 11:46:30 AM

Familiar.

Mine gave up asking though
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 06, 2009, 01:17:03 PM
I try not to mention such stuff to my better half... It´s better that way. Instead, I was very careful to inform her about me selling my Sisters of Battle to Soth. :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 06, 2009, 01:23:28 PM
On the plus side, I will really only need:

2 - 3 boxes of bestigor
2 boxes of chaos hounds
2 boxes of minotaur
All of the new heroes.

Thats only $200

If the gorgon is sweet, I'll buy that too.  I have my scratch built super chaos spawn.  He will work as a gorgon I think.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on November 06, 2009, 02:12:36 PM
Her eyes started glazing over and she said "How much is this going to cost?"

Lucky you!

My wife crawls up into a ball and weeps...

BTW, 75Hastings wrote over at Warseer that the new plastic minos looked like crap.

If it is because he still resents GW for the cost of greatswords remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 06, 2009, 03:27:42 PM
I've learned these days not to listen to anyone's opinions on what looks good anymore.

I shall wait and judge for myself, though if they really did suck, that would help me not to feel like I need more  :wink:.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on November 06, 2009, 04:14:15 PM
its so hard though.

I think the new state troops look like horrendous hunched monkeys.
I think the new demons are laughably loltastic.
I hate the new stegadon, which eceryone else seems to love.

But the new CoK are ace. Our pistoliers and outriders are good kits too. The WoC stuff is largely good too.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 06, 2009, 04:59:34 PM
I love the state troops, the stegadon, and the bloodletters.  Granted, the old demons were all amazing, so plastic versions are going to be much less impressive.

What beast model has sucked?  Honestly, they get the beast just right every time since the last edition.  The only ones which were only so so were the khornigors.  Too many droopy horns.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on November 06, 2009, 05:05:57 PM
that's true, the herds are really good kits.

I am just going to be optimistic about the minotaurs until I see them. I will definitely be getting some kits as I only have 1 metal one.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on November 06, 2009, 05:49:27 PM
I do get this feeling that the Minotaurs will be crap. After a wait spanning two decades.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 06, 2009, 06:36:46 PM
I actually liked the bloodletters too. At one point there were rumours of a unit of chosen style beasts for us, which seem to have dropped off the radar now, but they'd have made pretty cool chosen gors.

I can never make my mind up about the stegadon. It does look big and nasty, which is what it is, so they got that right, and I like the howdah... he is kinda chunky though...

I'm more worried about them messing up the beasts rules than the minis, though funky looking minis would be groovy. I just want to get that new exciting feeling about playing them again. I do hope the bestigors are nice models though, as I'll be needing to get a whole bunch of them (assuming they make them a good choice, otherwise I'll stick to my herds). I have faith in that though cos I think a lot of the recent core troop plastics they have put out are very tasty.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 06, 2009, 08:10:28 PM
I am so fired up about beastmen.  Having 3000 points already painted gives me a good feeling.  It won't take more than a month to get the new batch done up, then I will be ready to finally do some damage to the newer armies!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 06, 2009, 09:17:23 PM
They'll all accuse us of being too good and totally broken... are you ready for that?  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 06, 2009, 11:01:07 PM
I've learned these days not to listen to anyone's opinions on what looks good anymore.

What I do is see if PhillyT likes something, because then I will know it's rubbish.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on November 07, 2009, 12:57:20 AM
I am so fired up about beastmen.  Having 3000 points already painted gives me a good feeling.  It won't take more than a month to get the new batch done up, then I will be ready to finally do some damage to the newer armies!

Phil
yeh, i really want to get what I have finished.
2 chariots, a minotaur, a hero, 2 herd boxes.

Would let me jump into small games probably immediately! or with only a few additions.

Plus my beasts are very quick to paint/
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 07, 2009, 01:03:16 AM
I'm all painted up with what I have for my beasts bar three (soon to be defunct, sigh) ogres and 4 herd minis, so I'm totally ready for reinforcements!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Boldrick on November 07, 2009, 09:45:07 AM
According to warseer the beast herd will be seperated to 2 boxes each costing 20 euros or so.One with ungors and one with Gors.

I do get this feeling that the Minotaurs will be crap. After a wait spanning two decades.
A wait considerably longer than your lifespan  :happy:
Title: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Sir Paradus Hithili on November 07, 2009, 11:02:27 AM
Geetings all
I have found info on the new BOC prices from Scryer off warseer and all I can say is: Those poor Beasts!

"Right, well it seems GW have changed the product code prefix for the whole Beastmen range (I had been wondering for a while now what these new prefix items were) which makes things slightly messier. There's no problem with the plastic kits:

Gors (Plastic Box) - Ł15.00 / US?? / 19,50 € / Oz$41.00
Ungors (Plastic Box) - Ł15.00 / US?? / 19,50 € / Oz$41.00
Bestigors (Plastic Box) - Ł25.00 / US?? / 32,50 € / Oz$69.00
Minotaurs (Plastic Box) - Ł27.00 / US?? / 35,00 € / Oz$74.00

But the metal box codes are a bit muddied by the multitude of new codes for existing metal products that aren't actually going to to be getting new kits. I have three metal products that are "new", I'm pretty certain the first two are Doombull and Grulgor respectively, and I get the feeling that the Ł35 box is just the existing Centigors. So I'll just leave these unassigned for the moment until I can get a confirmation on what is actually new and what has just been given a new product code:

(Metal Box) - Ł15.00 / US$25.00 / 22,50 € / Oz$44.00
(Metal Box) - Ł25.00 / US$41.25 / 32,50 € / Oz$69.00
(Metal Box) - Ł35.00 / US$57.75 / 50,00 € / Oz$96.00
__________________
"

cheers.
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 07, 2009, 12:05:57 PM
It's a bit hard to judge that without knowing how many models are in each box.
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Mogsam on November 07, 2009, 12:20:36 PM
Ł15 should be 10 big models. They aren't anymore expensive than Black Orcs as Gors as long as they have 10.

Beastigors might be expensive if they aren't more than 10, but since you don't know how many their are... This whole topic is moot at this point.

Mogsam
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 07, 2009, 12:25:51 PM
Yes, it would be helpful to know the numbers of minis per box first before we unleach our righteous nerd rage.
20 Beastigors for said sum is ok.
10 is Goldgors.

For the normal gors and ungors, it´s looks like the normal trend.
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 07, 2009, 12:28:30 PM
What's a 'grulgor,' by the way?
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Siberius on November 07, 2009, 02:23:18 PM
We're getting gors and ungors in separate boxes?

This is all a bit weird.
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 07, 2009, 05:07:51 PM
What's a 'grulgor,' by the way?

IIRC, it is a german name and some suspect the final word will be Spawngor.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 07, 2009, 07:05:11 PM
Are they going to make new ones then (not necessary) or are they going to mess with their sprues to make them seperate...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Boldrick on November 07, 2009, 07:36:21 PM
I don't think they will remake the kit so the second one.
Right now other things have to be updated like the centigor, bestigors and minotaurs.And don't forget that they need minis for the new things.
I hope they don't leave the gorgon without a model...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 07, 2009, 10:38:34 PM
I will bet $10 to anyone willing to pony up that they do not split the herds.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on November 07, 2009, 10:49:45 PM
I thought rearranging sprues cost money, because making the moulds for plastics was te big expense?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 08, 2009, 01:14:41 AM
Recutting sprues is not that expensive.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Boldrick on November 08, 2009, 10:01:21 AM
Harry says they won't.
Sounds quit odd to me too.But if they don't split the herds we have 2 new boxes at 20 euros.
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 08, 2009, 11:05:47 AM
Oh, thanks!
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Aldaris on November 08, 2009, 11:51:39 AM
What's a 'grulgor,' by the way?

IIRC, it is a german name and some suspect the final word will be Spawngor.
Nope. To the German name thing at least.
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Shadowlord on November 08, 2009, 12:35:04 PM
Hey, I am just saying what the Warseerists are saying.

"In german Greuel means Horror."

(and I do not know squat about German, except sexy Modern Talking).
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Aldaris on November 08, 2009, 12:38:31 PM
"Gräuel" means indeed horror, but "Grul" doesn't. Besides, you wouldn't use the word in that context.
And mentioning "Modern Talking" on a lazy Sunday noon when I am just sleepily sipping my coffee definitely counts as "Gräuel"!
 ::heretic::
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 08, 2009, 01:18:41 PM
"Cheri, cheri lady!" Shadowlord  :::cheers:::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y7c1_gK8Os
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 08, 2009, 08:31:33 PM
You get 20 models for only $35 though.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 08, 2009, 11:08:25 PM
Whilst I think splitting the herd would be kinda odd, it would also be kinda great to be able to get that balance of gors to ungors that is trickier now unless you have another gor outlet.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 09, 2009, 02:40:48 AM
I think the issue there though is that if they broke them up they would then seperate them in the book too.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 09, 2009, 08:51:52 AM
That was the weird side... and I really don't want that to happen...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 09, 2009, 10:24:00 AM
You know how GW is, they wouldn't think players were smart enough to understand that the unit is combined so they would need to keep the unit unified :D

Seriously though, I wouldn't be surprised if they recut the unit a little.  The $35 16-20 man boxes are a thing of the past.

Phil
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Wolfgang aus Wien on November 09, 2009, 02:44:47 PM
Somoene is questioning GW's command of the German language?
Why, I never......

Ahem....
Currently, the regiment box of Gor/Ungor costs $ 35 in the States.
I long for the days when those regiment boxes were $ 20 and thusly actually worth it for plastics......
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on November 09, 2009, 02:49:48 PM
"Cheri, cheri lady!" Shadowlord  :::cheers:::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y7c1_gK8Os

I was forced to sing this crap as a small kid and I still have nightmares.

Oh and I watched ARN and I think it is the largest heap of crap I have watched in a century. (or two)
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 09, 2009, 03:20:23 PM
Now, that makes it two of us in regards to Arn!  :::cheers:::

Arn as a character would be labelled as the purest cheddar cheese in a Warhammer enviorment as he is so awesome even Franky boy would hand over Ghal Maraz to him and join the flaggelants to atone for his failures.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on November 09, 2009, 05:25:01 PM
Id like more ungors in boxes to be honest.  My units tend to be split something like 8 gor in a unit with 16 ungor.
So if it was a 16 man box, id like say 6 gor, and 10 ungor.  GW win as they would be selling me less points.


I have 30 metal bestigor sat around in a box which I can't use though.  Its proper annoying having armies split up  :-(
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 09, 2009, 06:10:15 PM
You can't use them?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 09, 2009, 11:28:18 PM
He used to run a split army, but only has enough points to play Mortals as standalone (I believe from memory)...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 09, 2009, 11:37:01 PM
Yes, that is true!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 09, 2009, 11:49:46 PM
He's got 30 bestigor though!

Is that all you have in the beasts way Crimson?

Maybe it wouldn't take much buying to scrape together a reasonable beasts army...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 09, 2009, 11:51:05 PM
He has some herds too.  But the bestigor are the old ugly ones.

Not worth the time or money.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 10, 2009, 09:48:35 AM
Actually i am quite fond of the metal bestigors. Sure, compared with the plastic gor they are small, but i like the models.
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Justnorth on November 10, 2009, 09:56:38 AM
I love the stone trolls, they are some of my favourite GW monsters.

Also, on the Minotaur front, I want one of these ancient ones:

(http://www.trilemma.com/warmaster/miniatures/images/minotaur.jpg)

The older generation Minotaurs are nicely sculpted models with plenty of character, unfortunately with the size creep that has gone on over the last fifteen years, the Minotaurs from this period look rather small compared to the new plastics etc.
Title: Re: GW strike again! Goldswords vs Goldgors.
Post by: scarletsquig on November 10, 2009, 10:14:45 AM
Wait a second, why are they even re-releasing the beastherd models?

I used to have a beastman army, the plastic gor/ungor box is a really great kit, on a par with the new skaven at least. There's a whole heaping pile of models they should have given plastics before resculpting that kit.. chariots and centigor for a start!

I'm more irritated by the choice of model releases than the pricing.

If they put ungors back on 20mm bases, the people who ripped theirs apart and put them on 25mm for 6th edition are NOT gonna be happy. I'd be facing that fate if I hadn't sold mine off. :P

Oh, and "Goldigors" sounds better, like a messed-up version of goldilocks who ate all the frakking porridge then ate the bears too.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 10, 2009, 11:12:59 AM
And the current metal ones are not bad models either, they are juts very similar in pose.  I am hoping the newer ones will be more dynamic.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 10, 2009, 02:48:03 PM
Scarlet, I don't think they are saying they are going to resculpt herds. I think the possibility is that they may split the box so you either get gors or ungors. I haven't heard anything about the bases becoming smaller. That would make no sense to me either.

I hope that the goldigor name doesn't stick. I'm totally fed up with the term goldswords and have been since it started getting bandied around.   :|
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 10, 2009, 05:09:02 PM
The goldsword thing is the peak of immaturity and one of the few forum terms I truely dislike.

I saw the breakdown concerning split herds, so maybe it is happening. They will not change the baseize though.  Marauders are on 25mm bases and the ungor are still part of the combined herd unit so they will have the same base size.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 10, 2009, 05:11:12 PM
so they will haveth same base size.

Phil

Whew, that was tricky to read, but I like the way you went all biblical here  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on November 10, 2009, 05:17:56 PM
Did you break the new keyboard already?  :Ohmy:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on November 10, 2009, 05:22:36 PM
My total beasts figures are as follows

1 beastlord,
1 shaman

2 boxes of gors, 30 metal bestigor, 6 centigor, 8 warhounds, 4 dragon ogres, 4 trolls, 4 minotaurs, a chariot, a shaggoth and a giant.  6 chaos spawn if these count?

Im not really capable of fielding a good beasts army, these were supplimentary to my hordes army.

I can field a full daemons of chaos list now too though of about 3500 points   ::heretic::  ::heretic::  ::heretic::

Goldigors are chosen gors of slaanesh arn't they?   :-D
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 10, 2009, 05:30:10 PM
Slaangor are slaanesh gor. 

Sorry about that last post.  When my laptop is in power saver mode it skips keystrokes like crazy on the forum!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on November 10, 2009, 05:32:38 PM
Yeah i know that Phily, but goldigor sound like slaanesh gor too :)  Perhaps ones slaanesh has blessed with excessive bling, or golden horns?   :-D
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 10, 2009, 05:56:39 PM
Blinagor

or Kanyaigor.  THat would b a gor obsesse with how great they are.  Very Slaanesh!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 10, 2009, 06:31:35 PM
You so do have a beast army there Crimson  :-P.

Sure, it could be bulked out a little with a few choice purchases, but that's a fair amount of models to already have to start with...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 10, 2009, 08:57:45 PM
Hey guys, the final version of the Avatars minotaur lord is done!  He looks great!

http://www.arena-deathmatch.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=627&start=60 (http://www.arena-deathmatch.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=627&start=60)

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 10, 2009, 09:19:45 PM
Is it too much to hope that GW might capture some of that menace and dynamism in their new minos?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 10, 2009, 09:21:11 PM
I think they can.  The old models were okay, they just looked bored.  The Doombull model we have now is ace, with its dynamic pose and roaring mouth.  I lke this one alot too.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 10, 2009, 09:24:04 PM
You're right. I'm a gonna trust them to do a good job. I really have been impressed with 80-90% of their more recent minis. I actually think they finally made skaven look like the scary vicious hoard they should be rather than 80s cartoon characters. If I didn't have so many other armies going, I'd actually be tempted. But they are an army too far.

Hooves crossed that they continue the great run of form into Beasts!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Boldrick on November 10, 2009, 09:34:18 PM
I hated the new WoC so I really hope the new beasts won't fail me.
VCs, DEs, empire and skaven I quite liked though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 10, 2009, 09:45:11 PM
I loved pretty much everything they did for the new WoC.

They look so much more menacing now, even the new marauders. Wish they had done the foot unit too but eh.

I think the only army not to impress me at all was the new High Elves. They still haven't made them look as cool as they should. They looked pretty rushed too, don't know if it was my imagination.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 10, 2009, 10:41:24 PM
I think the only army not to impress me at all was the new High Elves. They still haven't made them look as cool as they should. They looked pretty rushed too, don't know if it was my imagination.

Agree. Which is weird considering they waited 9 months between books too. Though the dragon and lions are killer.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: t12161991 on November 10, 2009, 10:42:09 PM
High Elves quasi-desperately need new infantry models.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on November 10, 2009, 10:49:34 PM
High Elves quasi-desperately need new infantry models.

I like them.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 10, 2009, 10:56:51 PM
I really like the Phoenix guard actually. And the archers aren't bad. The rest leave a bit to be desired.

...

I don't get why people don't like the Khornigors. I have 15 of them and quite like them. Though I haven't attempted to paint them yet...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: t12161991 on November 10, 2009, 11:12:29 PM
Yeah, those two aren't bad, but the rest...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 10, 2009, 11:35:15 PM
I forgot about the chariot. That rocks. If only they'd release a dark elf one...

The dragon also is wonderful.

The rest I'm not fond of. They're better than they used to be, but they lack the sinuous look that elves should have (and that they acheived with both the Dark and Wood elves). They are too blocky for me, I think of elves as being slender, lithe and graceful, not words that can be applied as of yet sadly.

One day they will get them right and I'll really actually want them...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 11, 2009, 12:22:59 AM
but they lack the sinuous look that elves should have (and that they acheived with both the Dark and Wood elves). They are too blocky for me, I think of elves as being slender, lithe and graceful, not words that can be applied as of yet sadly.

See, I don't think the Black Guard look any good. I really liked the 5th ed black guard.

Oh, and Phil - I don't get why you like the current GW Doombull. I think its a terrible miniature. I bought one, hated it, and sold it not long after.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on November 11, 2009, 12:25:28 AM
See, I don't think the Black Guard look any good. I really liked the 5th ed black guard.

By god sir if I had a glove long enough to reach your isle you would be slapped and most viciously.

As it is I'll just have to express my disagreement most strongly.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 11, 2009, 09:00:05 AM
I'm with DWhitey on this one...

Pretty much everything in the old Dark Elf range was horrendous.

And I don't like the doombull either. I'd definitely have one if I did, but that pose is just not good...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 11, 2009, 10:05:54 AM
I think Philly is blinded by his general love for the furry buggers. Parents don't recognize their ugly kids for what they are. To them, they are beautiful.
 :happy:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on November 11, 2009, 10:08:01 AM
I think Philly is blinded by his general love for the furry buggers.

Nothing new, here...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 11, 2009, 10:55:27 AM
I forgot about the chariot. That rocks. If only they'd release a dark elf one...

And dark riders!



Quote from: Warlord
and lions are killer

The fat lions? Seriously?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 11, 2009, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: Warlord
and lions are killer

The fat lions? Seriously?

They aren't fat. But they are plastic - which is what seals the deal.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on November 11, 2009, 02:39:23 PM
Hey, GW, quick, make some really shitty models, but make them plastic! Warlord will eat them up!  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 11, 2009, 04:44:58 PM
The lions are cool! They are not fat at all. They are mean. They will eat you.

The chariot horses are really nice too. I yoinked them from the person who I made the chariot up for. Probably going to incorporate them into my Dark Elves seeing as Dark Elves don't know what nice horses are.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on November 11, 2009, 04:52:56 PM
I like the Dark Rider horses.

I like the current High Elf sculpts too.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 11, 2009, 10:39:44 PM
They aren't fat. But they are plastic - which is what seals the deal.

I know what you mean. I'll buy any awful looking rubbish so long as it's plastic.

The chariot and horses are good though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 12, 2009, 01:00:31 AM
Hey wait a minute, whats all this hating on me because I like the Lions?

I like the models, but because they are plastic, they are affordable to make a unit of cavalry riding them. If they were metal, they would undoubtably be more expensive, and be more difficult to adjust their poses also.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 12, 2009, 10:03:37 AM
Hey wait a minute, whats all this hating on me because I like the Lions?

Because your hate makes me powerful.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 12, 2009, 01:52:19 PM
I actually like the lions.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 12, 2009, 05:03:05 PM
I haven't seen one yet, but the idea of a unit of lion cavalry is very very cool.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on November 12, 2009, 08:56:31 PM
Does the HE chariot box come with both horses and lions?

If so what are the HE players doing with all those spare lions?

... and can I have some?

 :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 12, 2009, 09:18:42 PM
Yup, they come with both options. I don't know where all the spare lions end up.

Maybe everybody just does the lion variant cos it's too cool not to  :-P.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 12, 2009, 10:51:55 PM
Yup, they come with both options. I don't know where all the spare lions end up.

Maybe everybody just does the lion variant cos it's too cool not to  :-P.

Thats right. And then they use the horses for cavalry or character mounts.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 12, 2009, 11:43:54 PM
Makes you wonder, how hard would it have been to come up with a nice dark elf general kit where they have a mounted and infantry guy with a cold one and horse so you could choose. Even better would have been a sorceress kit of that nature. Why they always do the cold one only I have no idea...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 13, 2009, 01:58:32 AM
Nobody DOESN'T make white lion chariots.  You would be crazy not too.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 13, 2009, 04:27:13 AM
Why have GW stopped the plastic character thing? That was easily one of the things I was looking most forward to in this edition.

Since VCs, its like they forgot.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 13, 2009, 08:57:10 AM
Guess we should assume that it wasn't as profitable.

Maybe they found people were buying up all the bits off bits sites and not buying any from them. I don't know really. But it was a great idea while it was going... albeit they hadn't made any brilliant ones yet...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 13, 2009, 10:25:37 AM
I once saw an high elf army with a block of white lions mage entirely of chariot crew. The player didn't like the metal ones and had six crewless spare chariots...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 13, 2009, 10:33:06 AM
You can't even make a decent dark elf chariot by combining the new cold ones with the high elf chariot, because the cold ones are rigged for riding and would look stupid pulling a chariot.

And where's my dark elf sorceress riding a horse? No one wants a cold one!


albeit they hadn't made any brilliant ones yet...

That was the problem. Did they make any besides the awful Empire and high elf ones?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on November 13, 2009, 10:36:36 AM
You forgot the awful Orc one.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 13, 2009, 10:37:55 AM
I didn't even know there was one!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 13, 2009, 10:51:31 AM
The orc one is really awful. the high elf one is quite nice, the empire one has goofy heads and oversized weapons but is OK.

When will we get pics of the new beasts? I can't wait much longer :)

The sad thing is, the beasts will arrive right after the brith of our first child and i will probably have better things to do than playing with my toy soldiers...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on November 13, 2009, 10:53:25 AM
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1184901_99120209013_O&GOrcWarbossMain_445x319.jpg)

Meh.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on November 13, 2009, 10:55:24 AM
And where's my dark elf sorceress riding a horse? No one wants a cold one!

I agree. I would prefer a hot one as well...  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 13, 2009, 11:01:00 AM
Marginal, Soth. Have half a Midaski point.


Those plastic orcs are dire. The one on the mutant pig needs to see a dentist.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 13, 2009, 12:03:34 PM
I loved the orc general box.  None of the boxes wowed me, but that boar was fantastic.  A couple of the heads were very good, and the bits gave a nice set of options yet were easily replaceable.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 13, 2009, 12:38:21 PM
The bits are good, but the bodies are nothing special, the Blackorc-facemask is awful and the pig thrice the size of the "normal" ones with too long tusks and not enough fur.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 13, 2009, 12:40:10 PM
The flag looks OK though - at least it isn't a dead angel on a stick!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 13, 2009, 01:51:07 PM
The problem is, we know from things like the Cole One Knights and Skeletons that they can do detail really well now in plastic, so they have no excuse for the slightly dumbed down bulked up general sets.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Boldrick on November 13, 2009, 02:09:44 PM
Call me a freak but I have bought the orc one 9 times...
I really hope they make a kit for BoC:
Centigor feet and body
Beast on foot feet
2x body variants
Many weapon options
Many head options
Funny things like the snotling of the orcs or robot baby (It is freaken creepy...) of the empire
Details to show the mark that you bought for him.

Yeah I can only wish
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 13, 2009, 03:14:44 PM
I'd buy it if they did it.

Course if they released a bunch of new hero models that were up to Wood Elf character standards, I'd not complain. Not that the beast character choices we have are bad, on the wargor side anyways. They pretty much rock. New shamans are badly needed. It's basically axe up or axe down...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 13, 2009, 03:50:36 PM
Afaik GW states not to make more plastic hero kits. Apparently they sold not well enough (or drew off too much of the metal characters sales...)
I heard somewhere that they had made a dwarf hero plastic kit, but the mould broke and it was never released.
The wizard kits are cool, too. Especially the high elf one.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 13, 2009, 11:41:15 PM
I loved the boar.  The new boars will certainly be similar, I think thats the point.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 14, 2009, 01:07:18 AM
That boar is pretty sexy, I'll admit.

It's bordering on tuskgor sexy.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on November 14, 2009, 12:37:26 PM
From the GW newsletter:

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Other/Beastmen_EN_550x756.jpg)

Incoming! Beastmen

In the dark places of the world, the Beastmen have been gathering in number and in February they will unleash their rage on the Warhammer world with renewed vigour. A feral army of twisted monsters, the Beastmen have inhabitant the dark forests and wild places of the world since such places existed. To lead a Beastmen army is to field vast herds of braying, brutish beasts who worship Chaos in all its forms, and who fight to level the civilised world.

This will be the first time ever that the Beastmen have had their own, completely stand-alone, army list. The forthcoming Warhammer Armies: Beastmen is full of twisted monsters old and new, and an all-new lore of magic. The Beastmen are the original inhabitants of the Old World: in February 2010 they come to reclaim it from the hands of Men.
 
 
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on November 14, 2009, 12:40:15 PM
"The Beastmen are the original inhabitants of the Old World:"

How are they going to justify that?

I thought Beastmen were a mutation of Beast and Man so Man had to be around for that to happen ....................

 :icon_rolleyes:





I might have to go to the dark depths of cupboard 4 to find my beastmen models ....................

 :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on November 14, 2009, 12:51:38 PM
Hey look !
 
They're ogres with a cows' head !
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 14, 2009, 02:15:39 PM
Indeed, you need men and beasts to get beastmens. Period. But maybe GW plans to reinvent their fluff again, hoping to get some people soft about the evil beasties.
Yeah, ogres with cowheads.

Now, I am not wetting my pants in exitement anymore. We´ll see...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: t12161991 on November 14, 2009, 04:28:07 PM
By original they probably mean that they were the most widespread before the Elves and Dwarfs decided to do a little housekeeping...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Boldrick on November 14, 2009, 05:05:22 PM
GW fucked up again(pardon me...)
I can make marauders with goat heads too  :dry:
They are also removing the chaos lore and only giving us a single beast lore.And I am predicting generally even less chaos influece.
Notice how they are now called beastmen instead of beasts of chaos.I think that was the case a long time ago but chaos had it's glory then.
It now resembles an all hated non-inspiring (artowork and modelwise) army, the "fantasy power armour" army and those new beasts I am already sceptical about.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on November 14, 2009, 06:34:57 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that central beast looks a little too much like a man?

I mean, his chest is completely shaved, and very human.....

Not like I imagine them at all.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Boldrick on November 14, 2009, 06:57:49 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that central beast looks a little too much like a man?

I mean, his chest is completely shaved, and very human.....

Not like I imagine them at all.
Well not really eight this is one of the main subjects on warseer the last 3 hours.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on November 14, 2009, 07:00:55 PM
And for those who don't go on Warseer, and are going by this thread? Hmm?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Boldrick on November 14, 2009, 07:05:45 PM
Well for those people I said "I can make marauders with goat heads too" obviusly a comment on the new gor look. :happy:
Soth said that they are ogres with cow heads too.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Castozor on November 14, 2009, 07:41:35 PM
I like them. Now they at least look like men who got fused with animals instead of goats who learned how to walk upright. IMHO I find this picture more fitting with the current fluff then the old goats-who-walked-upright.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 14, 2009, 09:17:38 PM
Damn, that central beasts looks a bit like Chipendales with goat head. A clean shaven chest? What drugs are GW on today? Making the beasties into whimps. Where is their curly chest hairs, that thing all manly men have?
And the way he poses as if to show of his abs for the cows?

Dear good, I liked the gritty look in the old book. What is GW doing...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 14, 2009, 11:12:04 PM
Folks, it is a cover.  Relax.

You can very easily paint the current gor in exactly that fashion.  The only hair on their chests is that which is coming from their neck.  I painted mine as though they had short hair all over their body, but you could do flesh tones if you were so inclined.

Lets not get too crazy, otherwise we will seem like the Warpshadow boys.  They spent 20 pages of their Tyranid rumor thread discussing 'massive blur 4' from the cover and trying to determine what awesome new model it represented!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 14, 2009, 11:40:37 PM
Folks, it is a cover.  Relax.
Exactly. If I judged armies (or models for that matter) by the cover of the army book, I'd never have started Empire. Our current book looks embarassingly bad. The sixth edition one was good though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 15, 2009, 12:03:50 AM
It's certainly not a very good picture.

It's not the retina-scorching wood elf one though!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 15, 2009, 12:06:31 AM
I know, it makes no sense.  Paul Dainton is like liquid awesome on paper, yet they pick his bad stuff for the covers!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 15, 2009, 01:00:44 AM
It's certainly not a very good picture.

It's not the retina-scorching wood elf one though!
Thank god for small favors. Although if those two covers slugged it out in an all-out who-sucks-more fest, I'm not sure who'd come out on top.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: t12161991 on November 15, 2009, 03:20:37 AM
The Wood Elf cover sucks.

The rest of the artwork in the book is quite good.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 15, 2009, 11:10:26 AM
The Wood Elf cover sucks.

The rest of the artwork in the book is quite good.

Yes, the interior art is good. But usually black-and-white warhammer pictures are better than color ones.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on November 15, 2009, 11:15:18 AM
This cover is cool IMO, and of course who can say no to the new Pumbagor that Harry and Hastings are making fun of over at Warseer?  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 15, 2009, 12:58:03 PM
I think the distancing from Chaos is more worrying. I can't see a single chaos symbol on the cover (the banner even is a beast head in a circle)...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Inarticulate on November 15, 2009, 01:08:16 PM
It still looks like a Chaosy symbol, I prefer them to look a little more feral.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 15, 2009, 01:24:52 PM
I think the distancing from Chaos is more worrying. I can't see a single chaos symbol on the cover (the banner even is a beast head in a circle)...
In the newsletter text it says something like (I have to translate): ..."an Army of brutal, braying beasts who serve Chaos in all its forms..."
So no distancing from Chaos as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 15, 2009, 02:23:55 PM
Well, you could theme an army around the lion king.
A Simba patterned Beastlord riding in his trusty chariot drawn by Pumba and Timon! Paint a grumpy looking wargor who always plays second fiddle as Scar, a bray shaman as the wise monkey shaman of the movie and there you go!

They still look silly... They probably selected to cover because they belived the Timmies would think the beastlord flexing the abs would look "Awzum, He pwns the humans Roxor!"
I think of asking why they did not depict him with a cannon ball hole in the chest and looking more like "WTF?!!!"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Inarticulate on November 15, 2009, 04:36:43 PM
I think Mathi has been watching too much TV with his kids!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 15, 2009, 06:15:42 PM
Pfft... You all should get kids and start watching TV with them. Makes a man out of you!
It also teaches you not to take Warhammer too seriously. It´s good therapy as it helps contain my Warhammer nerd rage. However, I somehow have a strange feeling that people would start to get very dissapointed if I completley stoped my righteous rages. And I can´t dissapoint my fans, can I? :icon_wink:

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 15, 2009, 06:19:43 PM
There's one bit in the film Gladiator where there's a guy wearing a cow's head as a helmet. It looks just like that beastman on the cover.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on November 15, 2009, 06:28:42 PM
It also teaches you not to take Warhammer too seriously.

Live as you learn/teach eh?   :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 15, 2009, 09:20:18 PM
Like I said. I have a fanbase too please... :icon_razz:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 15, 2009, 09:47:27 PM
If the cover is getting this much attention, I fear what rage the new minis will create...

Regardless of how good or bad the minotaurs look, there's gonna be at least 3 pages of heated argument about it... I can feel it already...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 15, 2009, 11:27:08 PM
Not much to feel there. It's always like that when new minis come out. I haven't played Warhammer regularly for as long as a lot of other people here, but still: I can't remember a single time when there weren't scores of people hating them.
 :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 16, 2009, 11:40:50 PM
I am so disappointed in many of you.

 :icon_cry:

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 16, 2009, 11:55:12 PM
Why?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 16, 2009, 11:57:17 PM
Don't ask him to explain his vague disapproval! It's comments like yours that unaccountably disappoint him so much.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 17, 2009, 12:02:11 AM
Oh. I didn't mean to hurt his feelings.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 17, 2009, 12:46:20 AM
Don't ask him to explain his vague disapproval! It's comments like yours that unaccountably disappoint him so much.

I love you rufus. You really are vying for the spot in my heart I normally reserve for patsy.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 17, 2009, 01:44:40 AM
I was referring to the idiotic commentary concerning the new book cover.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 17, 2009, 08:03:45 AM
Bah! I belived you beast were tougher than that, Philly!  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: ChumpChange on November 17, 2009, 08:29:11 AM
It's strange to see the beasties taking some lumps on the cover of their own book. In GW related artwork usually empire soldiers are dying in droves but from what I can see it looks like our boys are giving as good as they are getting.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 17, 2009, 10:35:11 AM
I was referring to the idiotic commentary concerning the new book cover.

Phil
Idiotic, eh? Well... well your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries!

relax, my dear Philly. That's just the W-E way of expressing the beastman love.
 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 17, 2009, 10:50:13 AM
Warlord, I appreciate and depend upon your affection.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 17, 2009, 11:30:19 AM
Mostly I am surprised we are stooping to the same level of speculation concerning a cover as other sites.  I am with rufus: the black and white pictures inside the books are almost always significantly better than the cover.  I am not sure that I can think of more than 3 books which I feel really have nice cover art.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 17, 2009, 11:35:03 AM
Erm... the old Skaven book was pretty good. The Tomb Kings one is nice. And the current Beastmen one. The High Elf cover is not too bad. But that's pretty much it.
The current IG book is spectacularly ugly. They must have been stoned out of their minds when they chose that one.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on November 17, 2009, 12:19:40 PM
who cares about the cover?
Lets at least wait until we see some minis.

It still says "they worship Chaos in all its forms" and if they move away from that direction, what is to stop you just saying they worship nurgle and using nurgle symbols yourself?
New lore sounds cool to me, I bet it is good. Hope it has movement spells!

Time to get my beasty move on!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 17, 2009, 01:50:45 PM
Karl KpiskiadDainton are the two best artists they have.  The guy who does the Empire covers sucks terribly.

That said, Daintons best work is with inks, which is why his painting never live up to his black and hite potential.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: McKnight on November 17, 2009, 04:59:42 PM
Watch out!

The goldigors are coming!
10 Bestigors for Ł25 Hahahaha XD
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 17, 2009, 05:03:39 PM
The next person who types Goldigor on this forum gets banned for a week.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on November 17, 2009, 05:07:59 PM
Use of the word 'Gold' should be restricted to Empire.

The lower end types involved with these foul chaotic creatures need to use new prefixes .......

like "Worstigors" ........... or maybe "Dearigors"

The latter has the added attraction of being close to 'de rigeur' which is appropriate for the cost of any new GW elites .............

 :engel:

The next person who types Goldigor on this forum gets banned for a week.

Phil

I was so tempted ................
but we were creating at the same time.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 17, 2009, 05:09:48 PM
Are they really Ł25 for ten again?

That's hilarious! Remember to look deeply ashamed when you buy them, and try to ignore the incredulous contempt of the shopkeeper!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 17, 2009, 05:10:56 PM
That is the rumor on warseer.  Harry didn't comment so it seems to be true.  Now, if they fail to improve them over their current form, nobody will buy them anyway :D

Midaski:  Idon't think I have any sort of power over you :(

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 17, 2009, 05:18:50 PM
Are they really Ł25 for ten again?

That's hilarious! Remember to look deeply ashamed when you buy them, and try to ignore the incredulous contempt of the shopkeeper!
Nobody'll ever be in that situation anyway, so it doesn't really matter. It seems the Gol... (*looks at PhillyT*) ...really expensive Greatswords debacle has not been much of a learning experience.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 17, 2009, 05:22:37 PM
I'm looking forward to someone saying the price is reasonable, because there is a set of extra arms or a dead pigeon or something included in the kit.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 17, 2009, 05:24:39 PM
They have yet to announce for sure that there are only 10 models.  Potentially, there might be 20.

We will see.  I will get a couple boxes, but I will be unhappy.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on November 17, 2009, 05:26:06 PM
The problem is that unless we can get an insider to come clean on the actual sales figures for the Empire Greatswords how can we do more than speculate.

If absolutely disastrous sales figures became common knowledge we could demand reduced prices, buy multitudes of boxes at Ł15.00 and the moron who set the price would be sacked and pilloried for evermore in gaming circles ....... he might even rise to the dizzy heights of:

"I'll take S4 anyday" status.

Edit: Hmmmmm I would like to apologise to the members - this is taking fantasy to the extremes .....................

 :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on November 17, 2009, 06:10:13 PM
GOLDIGOR GOLDIGOR GOLDIGOR GOLDIGOR GOLDIGOR.

 :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 17, 2009, 06:20:39 PM
You can't say you weren't warned... mainly because you will soon not be able to say anything...

 :wink:

It seems a bit early to be speculating prices yet doesn't it? We haven't even had the usual sneak peek at any minis or real proper confirmations of anything other than a picture of a cover.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 17, 2009, 06:24:37 PM
You can't say you weren't warned... mainly because you will soon not be able to say anything...

 :wink:
I guess PhillyTs comments on the "stop the press"-thread sparked a bout of defiance.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on November 17, 2009, 06:25:28 PM
Surely the Goldigor he means is the ugly sister of Goldilocks?

The bears ate that one, mistook her for a boar.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on November 17, 2009, 06:27:27 PM
That's hilarious! Remember to look deeply ashamed when you buy them, and try to ignore the incredulous contempt of the shopkeeper!

I'm filthy rich so why should I care?

I will walk out that store with my stash of Greatswords and get all the chicks (yes nerds, getting Empire Greatswords will get you laid).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 17, 2009, 06:28:06 PM
GOLDIGOR GOLDIGOR GOLDIGOR GOLDIGOR GOLDIGOR.

 :closed-eyes:

He asked for it.

MrDwhitey:  Please... I love you...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on November 17, 2009, 06:32:34 PM
MrDwhitey:  Please... I love you...

Not sure how to take that, a promise, a threat, or just a suggestion?  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 17, 2009, 06:38:35 PM
Yes.

 :icon_cry:

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: wissenlander on November 17, 2009, 07:26:20 PM
Oprression and tyranny run amock!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on November 17, 2009, 07:34:44 PM
MrDwhitey:  Please... I love you...

Not sure how to take that

On knees and knuckles, so the experts say...  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Inarticulate on November 17, 2009, 08:14:09 PM
MrDwhitey:  Please... I love you...

Not sure how to take that

On knees and knuckles, so the experts say...  :engel:

Duuude, eww
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on November 17, 2009, 09:39:44 PM
On knees and knuckles, so the experts say...  :engel:

You have learned well Luke, but you are not a sexual Jedi yet...

Anyhoo, I look forward to plastic minis, at least for conversions for Ogre stuff like Gorgers.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 17, 2009, 10:09:02 PM
We will most likely need to wait until the skaven are all out before we see much.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on November 18, 2009, 06:52:15 AM
On knees and knuckles, so the experts say...  :engel:

You have learned well Luke, but you are not a sexual Jedi yet...

Do you know this movie where two guys wearing luminescent condoms fight in a dark room (it was a star wars reference of course). You remark brought the memory back... hilarious !
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on November 18, 2009, 10:10:49 AM
Do you know this movie where two guys wearing luminescent condoms fight in a dark room (it was a star wars reference of course). You remark brought the memory back... hilarious !

John Ritter was one ( the Dad who died in 8 Simple Rules) - he was the sex-addict 'hero' of the film and it started with him nearly being shot by one mistress (Tasha Yar from Star Trek NG) whilst in bed with another.

Cannot remember the name of the film though?
Edit: "Skin Deep" a Blake Edwards (10) film


John Ritter also starred in a short-lived detective thing, where Furillo's ex wife - Barbara Bosson ? - in Hill Street Blues, played his police boss, and he had a stupid small dog ........

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: patsy02 on November 18, 2009, 11:30:59 AM
I'm looking forward to someone saying the price is reasonable, because there is a set of extra arms or a dead pigeon or something included in the kit.
What if it's an EXTRA super awesome dead pigeon, arguably worth Ł15 on its own?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 18, 2009, 12:22:51 PM
You're right. It was a bad example.

Let's say the box comes with a dead squirrel instead.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on November 18, 2009, 12:22:58 PM
Over on TWF, somebody was planning to buy the greatswords JUST FOR THE LOOSE GREATSWORD ON THE SPRUE.
 
Top that for insanity.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 18, 2009, 01:15:31 PM
I see Madness there...

Now, I would love more greatswords, so I can have two blocks of them in a Middenland army... But they are just too expensive for me to find it worthwhile... :icon_sad:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Boldrick on November 18, 2009, 01:38:27 PM
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=75146&d=1258536291
Not a big difference there really...
Rush out and buy those boxes while they are cheap.At least for the gor part.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on November 18, 2009, 02:38:19 PM
Over on TWF, somebody was planning to buy the greatswords JUST FOR THE LOOSE GREATSWORD ON THE SPRUE.
 
Top that for insanity.

It's worth it though.

It would fit nicely into the pile of pewter rocks I bought from GW earlier. At 2 GBP each.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 18, 2009, 02:56:34 PM
rumours by hastings say ungors will be back on 20 mm bases.That will piss off all the players who rebased their 20mm ungors when they became 25 mm in 6th ed!

Also, ungors will be able to have short bows. I'd have preferred javelins or slings fluffwise, but hey, short bows actually have range...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 18, 2009, 03:01:30 PM
Short bows??

That's silly. Why not use the highly underused javelins and slings?

This is beginning to sound weird...

If they are changing the base size, that makes it sound like the herd will split too...

This would make me sad...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 18, 2009, 03:02:48 PM
Also, this was posted on the herdstone (and warseer). a first glimpse of a "new" gor. They are VERY close to the old ones (which is fine, except for more poses and weapons there is nothing to improve on these!)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k82/gauterg/IMG_0003-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on November 18, 2009, 03:05:35 PM
"The Beastmen are the original inhabitants of the Old World:"

How are they going to justify that?

I thought Beastmen were a mutation of Beast and Man so Man had to be around for that to happen ....................

Expect a lawsuit for copyright infringement within the next two weeks.

Seriously though, good point.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 18, 2009, 03:17:14 PM
Actually the Liber Chaotica mentions that there was a half-intelligent human-like race in the old world even before humans settled there (Neanderthalians??). Chaos mutated those (and their animals) and they became the first beastmen. So yea, they were there before the humans.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 18, 2009, 03:23:42 PM
Since 5th edition is back in style now, can we expect two-wound beastmen?


Quote from: Moxer
ungors will be back on 20 mm bases

Base size changes are the single most annoying thing they can do in warhammer. Especially changing to a smaller size.


Actually the Liber Chaotica mentions that there was a half-intelligent human-like race in the old world even before humans settled there (Neanderthalians??). Chaos mutated those (and their animals) and they became the first beastmen. So yea, they were there before the humans.

That sounds like revisionism to me!

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 18, 2009, 03:28:34 PM
That sounds like revisionism to me!
In Warhammer? Don't be ridiculous, they'd never do that.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 18, 2009, 04:51:50 PM
I doubt they will change the base size.  MArauder are on 25mm and the ungor are still in a herd with gor (this has been all but confirmed by Harry - especially true since they said they fixed the ranking issues with herds).

That model does look different.  I think you are right, just a couple arm swaps and a different banner really.

Looks like I will need some gor boxes now...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 18, 2009, 05:26:24 PM
That mini doesn't look any different to me... isn't that makable from the current box set? The banner and the axe both look like the ones they already do...  :?

If they are the same but slightly different, man that would be cool. I often wish when they get something right that the next time they do them, they will keep the same look, but just a new set of poses. Imagine how amazing it would have been had they done that with 6th ed State Troops.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 18, 2009, 06:05:12 PM
Oh dear, oh dear. If those prices at warseer are correct, gors and ungors are going to be a hell of a lot more expensive (10 new gors=15 pounds, current: 12 gors and 8 ungors for 18). And since stocking up now is out of the question as all my hobby money is dedicated to Skaven atm, this looks like it'll be the death blow for an Aldaris beastmen army next year...
 :cry:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 18, 2009, 06:16:38 PM
That axe is not in the current box, and the thing on the gor's left hip is not on the models.

Aldaris:  In America, Herds are $35.  The new boxes would be $22.  Still a little more, but you aren't locked into getting heaps of gor when you want ungor, and visa versa.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 18, 2009, 06:36:19 PM
Maybe, but in pounds prices (which I'll propably pay because buying models from online shops in the UK is significantly cheaper than Euro prices) that is still a price hike of over 60% per model. That may not be as significant for someone like you who already has a load of the buggers and just wants some fleshing out here and there, but for me who'd be starting from scratch it is pretty prohibitive.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 18, 2009, 08:50:34 PM
My math indicates that it is only a 33% per model cost.

Still sucks though.

:D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 18, 2009, 09:17:33 PM
It sucks majorly. And I don´t see the reason. It will mean people, besides mighty Shadowlord, will only be able to build up their forces very slowly and this may be enough to make people bored. It´s plain stoopid.

Sure makes me think twice about starting any new army.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 18, 2009, 09:18:16 PM
12 gors and 8 ungors for 18 = about 0.9 per model
10 gors for 15 =  1.5 per model.

Increase of about 60 percent.
My math beats your math!
 :biggriin:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on November 18, 2009, 10:10:41 PM
My math beats your math! :biggriin:

But my ass is still Phat!

About the new prices... Seriously, how can you be surprised?

Empire and Skaven were hints enough I would think.

Now bring me that Pumbagor!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 18, 2009, 10:20:28 PM
*Shouts towards the kitchen

One pumbagor ordered!

Now, do you prefer it bloody or well done?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: t12161991 on November 19, 2009, 12:52:18 AM
Danny and Toro insist on bloody...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 19, 2009, 02:58:42 AM
My math says 20 models for $35 is $1.75 per model
10 models for $22 is $2.20.

Thats less than a 33% increase.

Buy American.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: t12161991 on November 19, 2009, 03:17:30 AM
EDIT: Just realized Aldaris was talking in pounds. Stoopid me.
EDIT2: My brain needs to start working. My math fails.

15.00 GBP = 25.0539 USD

18.00 GBP = 30.0646 USD

30.0646/20 ~ $1.5/model
25.0539/10 ~$2.5/model

So that's a 67% price increase...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Dihenydd on November 19, 2009, 04:42:53 AM
Whats the thing about having big belly and gut plates now?  The cover looks like small ogres with strange heads.  Is that a Beastman giant in the background, again with the gutplate.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 19, 2009, 12:16:33 PM
The info I saw says the new boxes will be the price of the state troops etc.  Thgat would put them at $22.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on November 19, 2009, 12:29:52 PM
Whats the thing about having big belly and gut plates now?  The cover looks like small ogres with strange heads.  Is that a Beastman giant in the background, again with the gutplate.

That's what I meant with my earlier remark.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 19, 2009, 12:39:04 PM
I think it is a minotaur.  The gut plates are common in the army and existed on the models long before the ogres were produced.

I refer to them as "The WWF Championship Belt" on most of thye models which have them.  My beastmen like to wrestle.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on November 19, 2009, 12:40:59 PM
Why should the Warhammer World be exempt from fashion patterns?

Beasts have probably noticed that the gut plates look fancy on ogres. So they got some for themselves, because everybody knows ogres are the trendsetters in WHFB. Remember that period three years ago when all the High Elves ate like pigs to become as fat as possible? All because of them ogres.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 19, 2009, 12:46:09 PM
They did look silly with their little chainmail dresses all sticking out in awkward places.

The thing is, the Beastmen had the gutplates first, but nobody noticed because they were coated in dung and sexy juice.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on November 19, 2009, 01:37:38 PM
Guys I come to this forum for it's community and to read helpful warhammer threads after work (I get to say that now).

Instead I have to read numbers and equations and all sorts of mumbo jumbo, the things I visit this forum to escape from!

I ask ever so politely that we talk about how cool the beast hero models are and that I hope they don't get rid of them (although the regular 2 plastic hero box could be awesome as well).

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Dihenydd on November 19, 2009, 01:39:57 PM
Whats the thing about having big belly and gut plates now?  The cover looks like small ogres with strange heads.  Is that a Beastman giant in the background, again with the gutplate.

That's what I meant with my earlier remark.

Sorry there's 50 pages of this nonsense now, I only read the last few posts.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 19, 2009, 02:34:47 PM
I ask ever so politely that we talk about how cool the beast hero models are and that I hope they don't get rid of them (although the regular 2 plastic hero box could be awesome as well).

They havn't made those plastic kits since HE.

The current heroes are good, but we are getting two more and a pair of shamans (finally!)

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 19, 2009, 04:53:11 PM
Sorry there's 50 pages of this nonsense now, I only read the last few posts.

I object!

This thread has been pretty cohesive and on topic for at least most of it's 50 pages  :-P.

At least, it seems so when I compare it to the skaven thread which I tried to trawl through the other day.  :icon_twisted:

Can't wait for the new shamans. The ones we have are so yawn inducing.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 19, 2009, 05:51:59 PM
This is the thing they are basing the GOrgon off.  I guess itisn't just D&D.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catoblepas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catoblepas)

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on November 19, 2009, 06:00:07 PM
Hm, maybe I should change my nickname?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 20, 2009, 12:29:16 PM
No, you came first.

Some really big news starting to come out:

The bestigor and Minotaur models are not super great according to Hastings and Harry.  I'll wait to see.  They both think they are better than the current ones though.

Ungor can be fielded seperately with the following options: spears, hand weapons,and shortbows.

Ungor can be added to gor untis like skink can to kroxigor units, apparantly.  Not sure how much I buy into this, but it appears to be the case given the ability to field seperate herds.

The gor and ungor have gotten TOTALLY NEW SCULPTS.  They look almost the same, so I have no idea why they bothered...

And they did raise the price to $25 for 10 gor or ungor.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 20, 2009, 01:29:26 PM
WHAT!!! :icon_eek:
25 dollars for 10 gors or ungors. For fething core troops! I belive GW are going insane now. Truly insane. That sort of put the final nail in the coffin om my Beastmen dreams.
I think I start scraping together Tomb kings stuff now, before their books come out and they skyrocket their prices aswell.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on November 20, 2009, 01:41:50 PM

And they did raise the price to $25 for 10 gor or ungor.


All of a sudden my interest in Perry and Warlord and Ł15 buying you 36 plastic minis is seeming to be oh so sensible .............

 :engel:

I can get Metal Perry Sculpts for Ł1.00 each, or GW Gors for Ł2.50 each?

OOH difficult one ............... 
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: McKnight on November 20, 2009, 03:38:14 PM


And they did raise the price to $25 for 10 gor or ungor.


Told you man... the goldigors are coming!  :icon_lol:

And i wont be scared by your oppressive acts of banning :P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on November 20, 2009, 05:49:10 PM
I can get Metal Perry Sculpts for Ł1.00 each, or GW Gors for Ł2.50 each?

OOH difficult one ...............

No way I will accept your vikings as Gors mister!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 20, 2009, 06:12:26 PM
You will accept ANYTHING as gores when I introduce you to my viking sword, Mr...  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 20, 2009, 11:24:34 PM
Thats only $3 more than state troops.  It isn't so bad, just not as good as the 20 you get at $35.

It is still only a 33% increase.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 20, 2009, 11:37:59 PM
It is still only a 33% increase.
Only!?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 20, 2009, 11:41:01 PM
Well it isn't 66% like people have been saying.

Besides, it is in line with the other armies.

Minotaur are $40 for three with shields, great weapons, additional hand weapons, and command bits is really good.   

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on November 20, 2009, 11:49:48 PM
Does not matter. It´s still crap.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 21, 2009, 12:04:52 AM
It does, but we knew if they broke up the herds they would raise the price to at least $22 for 10.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 25, 2009, 12:01:34 PM
It seems that many people are starting to buy into the idea that beastmen are losing skirmished herds...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on November 25, 2009, 12:14:12 PM
Perhaps because it's the only GW thing left they can still afford to buy.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 25, 2009, 12:20:25 PM
If they lose skirmishing herds i imagine it is a hint at 8th edition -> less skirmishers overall?
If the herds really get lost i am curious what they will do to avoid the "beasts are brown orcs" issue.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 25, 2009, 12:52:40 PM
It is still only a 33% increase.

I love that. Don't worry, it's only a 33% increase!


Quote from: Moxer
8th edition -> less skirmishers overall?

Let's hope so.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 25, 2009, 12:59:39 PM
Nooooooooooooo!

I like being a skirmished horde.  :-(
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on November 25, 2009, 03:02:42 PM
I wont collect them if they take out skirmishing and/or ambush.

I also wont collect them IF they are £25 for 10.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 25, 2009, 11:18:07 PM
rufus:  Only compared to 66% which is what some people are claiming.

Finley:  They aren't 25 pounds.  The units are no more than empire models.  Bestigor are apparantly 25 pounds, but who uses them anyway?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 25, 2009, 11:33:52 PM
It seems that many people are starting to buy into the idea that beastmen are losing skirmished herds...

Phil

Because skirmishers are obviously overpowered. Just look at Ghouls and Gutter Runners in 6th ed. They were the pinnacle of cheese, and clearly needed to become ranked units to curb their immense power and influence on the game. You think beast herds aren't as powerful? Surely you jest!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 25, 2009, 11:48:00 PM
Well they will need to do some serious beefing up of the army to differentiate it from the orcs.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 26, 2009, 03:33:35 PM
I can't even begin to comprehend using the army if it loses the skirmish...

It's like the best thing... and totally suits them as the sort of anti-wood-elf army that they are...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 26, 2009, 09:29:42 PM
In looking at the rumor, it is coming from the fact that ungor are now moving back to 20mm bases.  They are claiming that the herds won't rank up right because of it.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on November 26, 2009, 09:31:44 PM
Perhaps they are simply abolishing mixed herds, but keep the skirmish?

Or they leave it as it is, since different base sizes are not unheard of.

Who's writing the book?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 26, 2009, 10:17:44 PM
Andy Hoare I think?  Whoever it was quit prior to completeing it.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on November 27, 2009, 02:14:28 AM
would it be that bad?

They were individual ranked units back in 5th and I'm sure before as well, would it be horrible for them to go back?

Also is it not possible for them to be seperate skirmish units instead of mixed?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 27, 2009, 04:25:10 AM
I think it would work if they had some rule about having 4 gor = 1 rank, and thus 5 ungor = 1 rank. Both add up to 100mm, and you wouldn't take more than 8 in a herd anyway I would imagine...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on November 27, 2009, 07:53:11 AM
I think it would work if they had some rule about having 4 gor = 1 rank, and thus 5 ungor = 1 rank. Both add up to 100mm, and you wouldn't take more than 8 in a herd anyway I would imagine...

God forbid LOGIC ever comes creeping into GW's mind...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 27, 2009, 09:06:29 AM
Problem is, it would start getting messy when they died.

But maybe if they had a rule that because they are so carefully ranked, they cannon be killed, that could work. I think I could live with that.  :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on November 27, 2009, 09:17:19 AM
My bet is on ranked gors and skirmishing ungors plus eventually ranked ungors too (like skinks...hey maybe you can put some minotaur into ungor units? Well, not too fond of this.)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on November 27, 2009, 10:42:24 AM
(like skinks...hey maybe you can put some minotaur into ungor units? Well, not too fond of this.)

GW seems to be making a habit of putting large units into rank and file troops lately.

I can see this happening, to be honest.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 27, 2009, 11:31:38 AM
And then drop it all in the next book...

Moving the ungor back to 20mm pisses me off.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on November 27, 2009, 01:06:31 PM
would it be that bad?

They were individual ranked units back in 5th and I'm sure before as well, would it be horrible for them to go back?

Also is it not possible for them to be seperate skirmish units instead of mixed?

yes, because it is what differentiates them from the other armies.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 29, 2009, 11:16:19 AM
Exactly.  IF they add something else then perhaps we are okay, but the loss of skirmishing is my greatest fear.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on November 29, 2009, 06:57:05 PM
I'm almost tempted to stop looking for rumours until the thing comes out, it's getting too depressing  :-P.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 30, 2009, 11:52:21 AM
I'm not.  This is going to be the best beastman list that has ever occured.  It will be our book, not an addendum to the WoC.  It will feature the customization ability of other armies while being distinctly beastman.

It will be a fine book, one which has its own character.  The rumors are just that, and even if they are odd, I have faith that GW will get it right.  They have been doing good work since the DE book, which was good but overpowered.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Atrocity on November 30, 2009, 01:54:24 PM
Skaven book is great too, sure shitloads of mistakes in the writing but it's not an overpowered army, much like the WoC they are neat and balanced  :happy:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on November 30, 2009, 03:45:29 PM
I'm not.  This is going to be the best beastman list that has ever occured.  It will be our book, not an addendum to the WoC.  It will feature the customization ability of other armies while being distinctly beastman.

It will be a fine book, one which has its own character.  The rumors are just that, and even if they are odd, I have faith that GW will get it right.  They have been doing good work since the DE book, which was good but overpowered.

Phil
apart from if they take out skirmish/ambush?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on November 30, 2009, 03:47:42 PM
the loss of skirmishing is my greatest fear.

Normally, you complain about people making those sorts of speculations...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on November 30, 2009, 03:55:39 PM
This would take all the flair from the beastmen, without their raider rule they would become warriors of chaos with pelts!  :Ohmy:

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on November 30, 2009, 04:01:25 PM
This is going to be the best beastman list that has ever occured.  It will be our book, not an addendum to the WoC.  It will feature the customization ability of other armies while being distinctly beastman.

It will be a fine book, one which has its own character.
You forgot to say "please Lord" and "amen".
 :wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on November 30, 2009, 08:08:37 PM

It will be a fine book, one which has its own character.  The rumors are just that, and even if they are odd, I have faith that GW will get it right.  They have been doing good work since the DE book, which was good but overpowered.

Phil

I hope you have some proof of this Philly?  I have no faith GW can consistantly make interesting, balanced and fun lists.  The dark elf book was one of the biggest bits of cheese I have ever read.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on November 30, 2009, 10:40:14 PM

It will be a fine book, one which has its own character.  The rumors are just that, and even if they are odd, I have faith that GW will get it right.  They have been doing good work since the DE book, which was good but overpowered.

Yeah, the 6 stegadon lizard army sure is fun to play against.
And the Warriors of Chaos list isn't boring at all...
The Skaven book has only been out a month - lets wait and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on November 30, 2009, 11:30:28 PM
rufus:  I can still be nervous about losing something so distinctly beastman.  I don't think we will lose it, but I am ready for the possibility.

As for the books, 6 stegadon lizardman is not all that good.  WoC is a decent list, it has the variety to be enjoyable and is still interesting modelwise.

If a list looks good and is fun to paint while offering plenty of ways to play, what more do you want?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on December 01, 2009, 12:07:53 AM
what more do you want?

A roast/fried meal with every purchase.

Warriors of Chaos being fun to play depends on what you want. Some things they just do not have.

I will never have to face 6 stegadons.

That said, personally, I don't believe they'll ruin Beastmen at all.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 02, 2009, 02:36:46 PM
Look at this guy!

http://www.coolminiornot.com/134117 (http://www.coolminiornot.com/134117)

And others have seen the minotaur and doombull and say they look great.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on December 02, 2009, 03:41:58 PM
Shame thats not a new GW minotaur Philly.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on December 02, 2009, 04:11:36 PM
Shame thats not a new GW minotaur Philly.

No, that would be your mother!

argh cannot resist spy quotes.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on December 02, 2009, 05:16:58 PM
Am I reading correctly that the mini is from an OOP company?

Shame if so.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 02, 2009, 06:44:16 PM
I know, sweet model.  Now to see if GW can get it done!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sig on December 06, 2009, 07:49:44 PM
I've gotta say, I'm psyched for the new Beasts book. I haven't bought a new army in a long long time... but if this is any good, I will be.

Pardon my ignorance, but is there a website similar (though of undoubtably lesser quality) to this one which would have a gallery filled with Beasts inspiration?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 06, 2009, 09:43:26 PM
The herdstone.  It is listed on these threads somewhere...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sig on December 06, 2009, 10:10:25 PM
Cheers
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on December 07, 2009, 09:38:05 AM
a long list of rumours has been posted on warseer (and origionally on dakkadakka). I'd say it is a fake, but post it nonetheless :)

Quoted from warseer:

I visited my local GW today and found an old colleague running the store as most of the regular staff were off with Manbearpig Flu.

We got on to the conversation of WFB and some of the forthcoming releases...

One of them being Beastmen.

He told me what to expect from the book and confirmed some things I had wondered about:

The Marks:

All exactly the same as WoC.

Special Characters:

Morghur.
Gorthor - allows Beastman Chariots as Core Choices
A special character Doombull - allows Minotaurs as Core Choices
Khazrak.
A special character Bestigor Upgrade.
A special character Centigor Upgrade.

Lords and Heroes:

Beastlord - can ride a Tuskgor or a larger Razorgor. Can have Marks.
Great Bray-Shaman - Can have a herdstone altar. Can have Marks.
Bray-Shaman. Can have Marks.
Doombull - Who doesn't allow Minotaurs as core choices. Can have Marks.
A hero level Beastlord. Can have Marks.
A hero level Doombull. Can have Marks.
Some sort of Beastmaster.
A lord that lets you have as many Bestigor units as you can field.

Core Choices:

Gors - Finally separate from Ungors, apparently Skirmish when not in combat, but then act as a full rank and file unit when in combat. These guys can have a musician. If i'm right about this, this means that these guys have a 360 degree LOS and are at -1 to hit from shooting and can still fight good fights??? Have light armour, can have HW and Shields or Additional HW. Cannot have Marks.

Ungor Skirmishers - Are basically cannon fodder. They have no unit upgrades except a champion. They Skirmish too. Apparently about as nasty as a Goblin, but with better WS and higher movement. Cannot have Marks.

Bestigor - You can only have one unit of these guys per unit of Gors. Str and Toughness 4. Can have Great Weapons, Additional HW or HW and Shields. Come with Heavy Armour. Can have Marks. These guys can hit pretty hard from what I've been told.

Ungor Trackers - Skirmishing scout unit. Braver than a regular Ungor unit. Can throw Javelins.

Chaos Warhounds - As WoC.

Special Choices:

Tuskgor Herd - A unit of Tuskgors led by a Gor. From what I can gather, similar to the Packmaster units in Skaven. They have a special rule called stampede that can backfire if they fail a panic check.

Tuskgor Chariot - Now have two Bestigor riding them. Can have Marks.

Centigor - Can now have Marks.

Minotaurs - As before but now have something similar to the Ogre Kingdoms Bull Charge. No longer have Bloodgreed. Come with 2 HW and can upgrade to GW. Can have Marks.

Rare Choices:

Mammoth - WTF??? A large Mammoth with several Gor/Ungor riding in it. I doubt this one very much.

Tuskgor Cavalry - This sounds awesome. Apparently Bestigor on a Tuskgor with a 2+ save if the riders have shields and they can hit really really hard. Can have Marks.

Chaos Giant - as WoC.

Spawn - as WoC.

Magic Items:

Apparently the Beasts get the worst magic list in the game. No confirmation on what they are though.

Magic Spells:

They get a complete overhaul of the current spell list. They also have their own version of the Lore of Beasts.

New Models:

The entire range except for the Characters, Ungor Trackers, Centigor and Tuskgor Chariot is plastic. PLASTIC MINOTAURS??? I wish

Now to clarify this, I didn't see the book, but this is from a former colleague who I worked with at GW for almost my entire tenure (at least 4 out of the 6 years) and he is has been right about rumours before.

End of quote
-------------------------

Well, some of this sounds nice, but overall this list can not be true:

Tuskgor cavaly is too ridiculous to be true.
Razorgor is only mentioned as mount.
Gorgon is not mentioned. (But a model is confirmed)
Ungor skirmishers get a champion but no musician? This has never been done before, i doubt it. The same with Gors only getting a musician.
No mention of mutations.

Now, that tuskgor herd sounds like an interesting idea. I take the whole thing with a wagonload of salt though!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 07, 2009, 12:00:15 PM
I don't buy it either, which is why I didnt post it.  Too different from what has been mentioned.

Then there is the source...

 :happy:

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on December 07, 2009, 04:35:47 PM
You know, I've thought about how cool tuskgor cavalry would be before...

Still, it sounds too strong for beasts... we can't have any hard units, it's in our rules  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on December 07, 2009, 04:37:31 PM
great infantry and perhaps great cav....sounds like a usual army book but only if you also get the ridiculous powerful special characters that allow you to build the really broken armies.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on December 08, 2009, 05:03:59 AM
Sounds like roughly what I imagine.

However I really do think the Minotaur Lord should make Minotaurs Core - you shouldn't have to rely on a special character. When GW does that, it makes me mad.

*I know its an unlikely rumour list, but still*
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on December 08, 2009, 09:37:57 AM
They like to force the use of special characters through as you usually have both models for example Caradryan and a "regular" noble (who in hell would use a halberd if he can have a great weapon). Therefore increasing profit which is their good right as a company.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on December 08, 2009, 09:40:14 AM
Someone that doesn't let you use the halberd as a great weapon is probably one of those not worth playing who contributes to the reasons whineseer is called whineseer.

Yes, this post is ironic.

And on the Lords granting minotaurs as core, I agree that it shouldn't be a special character. It's just annoying having it rammed down your throat to use something you don't want to, to gain the army you want.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on December 08, 2009, 09:44:52 AM
agree and agree, hence I don´t like to go to any official games workshop...shop nor any of the official tournaments. It would be great if characters overall would allow you special unit choices for example

Great Templar grants you an IC unit of knights as core

a mage lets you include a unit of elementals as core

a warrior priest flagellants as core (great they did this)

a technicus a warmachine as core (and the steam tank as a engineer mount like a dragon if he uses a hero slot for this there will be a whole lot less around).

Well but lets wait perhaps the special character minotaurus isn´t that bad and it might be ok to use him like for the warriors of chaos that marauder guy. (with another mini of course).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on December 11, 2009, 09:55:30 AM
Over on warseer it has been "confirmed" by steppingonyou (who is apparently a reliable source) that the Beastmen will get a shrine-like unit.
Also mixed herds are gone.

When asked if there are more new units apart from Razorgor, Gorgon and the shrine-thing he answerd "Oh yes, lots more". That sounds nice. However keep in mind that ranked Gors, ranked ungors and ungor skirmishers are already three additional "new" units. He also mentioned that every unit in the book has horns and hooves or claws. Goodbye Chaos trolls, Ogres, Dragonogres and ..wait the shaggoth HAS horns and claws! We will see....
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on December 11, 2009, 11:19:32 AM
I thought the herdstone was confirmed ages ago?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 12, 2009, 12:25:50 AM
It was to a degree, but only in that way rumors can be.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on December 12, 2009, 02:00:38 AM
also, my post was douchebaggy.
Who cares if it was?

Thanks for the update.
Still not sure if I will recollect. Depends how nice the models are probably. Although I really like the herd scultpts anyway
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 12, 2009, 11:25:59 AM
I don't blame you.  This is the first time I can honestly say I don't need any models, since I have about 4000K in beasts.  I will get some minos and maybe some of the special characters, but I at least can just sit and watch to see if anything is really nice.

I am still very excited about this release.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sig on December 12, 2009, 08:57:26 PM
Always nice to have some new fluff and expanded ideas, the models always come second to that for me anyway.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 13, 2009, 12:05:43 AM
My sentiment exactly!

 :::cheers:::

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sig on December 13, 2009, 08:43:19 AM
Still tossing up whether or not to pre buy some herds now when they're cheaper, because I'm not sure how useful ungor will be in the new book. I guess it'll be easy to convert them to have bows, but what if they're overpriced? Wish we had more rumours.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on December 13, 2009, 12:46:50 PM
Still tossing up whether or not to pre buy some herds now when they're cheaper, because I'm not sure how useful ungor will be in the new book. I guess it'll be easy to convert them to have bows, but what if they're overpriced? Wish we had more rumours.

Agreed. I am worried about this also...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 13, 2009, 01:12:04 PM
Well if it helps, I think they will be very useful.

If anyone picks up old ungor and is unsatisfied with their performance, I will buy them at a fair value provided they are unprimed and unpainted.  Go forth and get you some cheap herds before the book arrives!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sig on December 13, 2009, 02:23:34 PM
Definitely a more than fair offer! I picked up one herd already, I might go pick up 2 more. Maybe 3. Hmm.

Hopefully the ungor will be worth it. I might just stick with 3 herds though, because although ungor may well be useful I don't see myself needing more than 20 of them..
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on December 13, 2009, 02:31:45 PM
arent they going to be Ł12 for 10?

That's 1.20 each. instead of Ł1 at the moment.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sig on December 13, 2009, 02:33:52 PM
So a 20% increase. Yep, I'd rather avoid paying that.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on December 13, 2009, 02:40:58 PM
just buy them from ebay.
are you in britain?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Warhammer-Chaos-Beastmen-Regiment_W0QQitemZ110468649343QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Toys_Wargames_RL?hash=item19b871d17f
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sig on December 13, 2009, 07:03:15 PM
Australia.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 15, 2009, 03:19:17 PM
Just an update, there is no new information.

That is all.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on December 15, 2009, 07:59:53 PM
Have you started working for Fox News?

:icon_wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on December 15, 2009, 09:34:09 PM
I was a bit confused.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 17, 2009, 01:36:12 AM
I read through a pile of Herdstone and Warseer pages (12 or so) and nothing new had changed.

I thought I would save everyone the trouble of looking by letting you know.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: t12161991 on December 17, 2009, 03:12:26 AM
Will you let us know everyday until the book actually comes out?  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 18, 2009, 12:17:59 AM
No, but it might be 45 minutes of your life I just saved.  It looked like alot was happening.

It was not true.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sig on December 18, 2009, 12:25:13 AM
I shall always treasure those 45 minutes.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: t12161991 on December 18, 2009, 04:30:11 AM
I just check the first posts/rumor round-ups every week or so.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 18, 2009, 12:00:34 PM
Much of the information has yet to even hit that round up or first page.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sig on December 22, 2009, 12:51:37 PM
So apparently the Razorgor model is crap. Anyone here with a reliable opinion seen it? Derogatory comparisons to Poomba from the Lion King have been made.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on December 22, 2009, 12:58:11 PM
I like poomba.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on December 22, 2009, 01:42:52 PM
I've forgotten what the Razorgor is supposed to be. Why do they have to put gor in everything?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on December 23, 2009, 09:28:47 AM
Over on warseer somebody claimed that minotaurs still get no musicians. Hastings answered that by posting a part of the minotaur sprue! It shows a drum...and nothing else. Evil teaser!
If anybody wants to see it, it is on page 73 of the thread.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 23, 2009, 11:47:35 AM
Hastings and Harry are the only ones who have seen the Pumbagor.  Harry doesn't like it, Hastings hates it.  Looking at the models Hastings likes, I am very willing to reserve judgement.

I am not too worried.  Besides, what could be easier than creating a freaky thing on a 40mm base.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on December 23, 2009, 12:04:36 PM
Hastings and Harry are the only ones who have seen the Pumbagor. 

That is a weird sentence. I don't know what any of those things are.

What's a razorgor anyway? The boar thing?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on December 23, 2009, 12:05:38 PM
The first two are major sources for Warseer, usually reliable.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on December 25, 2009, 01:05:56 PM
Merry Christmas!  Doom Bull pictures from Warseer!

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77515&d=1261730828 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77515&d=1261730828)

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77520&d=1261739360 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77520&d=1261739360)

Not bad, a little... complicated.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on December 25, 2009, 01:44:20 PM
I like what I see so far. It definitely seems to be a vast improvement over the current Doombull model.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on December 25, 2009, 02:46:47 PM
Zoiks!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on December 25, 2009, 03:06:07 PM
Who is this Zoiks, and why are you summoning him to this discussion?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on December 25, 2009, 03:10:08 PM
I like it.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on December 25, 2009, 06:02:06 PM
Merry Christmas!  Doom Bull pictures from Warseer!

Looks cool, but the new Deff Dread is more of a tease than the bull.  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: patsy02 on December 25, 2009, 06:06:39 PM
Merry Christmas!  Doom Bull pictures from Warseer!

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77515&d=1261730828 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77515&d=1261730828)

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77520&d=1261739360 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77520&d=1261739360)

Not bad, a little... complicated.

Phil
Looks like Warcraft.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on December 25, 2009, 06:20:13 PM
Oh shit, he's right.
I knew it looked familiar.  :icon_eek:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on December 25, 2009, 07:29:39 PM
looks cool!
I'm currently at home where I have 2 chariots and a shitload of converted nurgle herd models. Might take them back to Exeter in preparation.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sig on January 05, 2010, 08:14:47 AM
Small update.

I was at GW today in Sydney and they had the Beastmen promo poster up....

The Gors and Ungors were in separate units. Both were ranked up with full command. The Ungors had spears. No sign of skirmishers in the poster at all.

Plastic Bestigor were in the centre and were big chunks of plastic, they looked good though.

The plastic minotaurs had very strange feet. They have humanoid shaped feet, ending in hooves where the toes should be. It looks odd. It also might have just been the paint job but they seemed really un-furry. I didn't like them at all, which is really disappointing. The Bestigor were definitely more exciting.

In the middle of the poster was a caster type Beastman character, he looked pretty cool, liked his model a lot.

All in all, was severely disappointed. There was a Giant in the poster, so Giants stay it seems. No shot of the Razorgor.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 05, 2010, 09:26:23 AM
We got Pics!

First posted on dakkadakka, biggest images can be seen on warseer, i copied them from the herdstone. Enjoy! (or not)


(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k82/gauterg/Beastmen_promo1.jpg)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k82/gauterg/Beastmen_promo2.jpg)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k82/gauterg/Beastmen_promo3.jpg)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k82/gauterg/Beastmen_promo5.jpg)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k82/gauterg/Beastmen_promo6.jpg)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k82/gauterg/Beastmen_promo4a.jpg)

So what have we got?
MINOTAURS: Oh my, the poor things. Who fed them those steroids? The feet/hooves are horrible as are the lower legs. Really that part of the sculpt sucks! Some of the heads are ridiculous too. I hope the overdone muscles can be hidden by a different paintjob...
Does anybody know how much they are going to cost? I might have to look for old minotaurs with greatweapons...

BESTIGORS: Ho hum. A bit bland overall, especially the armour. People complain that they are all in the same pose, but that will at least make them easier to rank up...

GOR: Pretty much the same, i still like them

UNGOR: Nice! may favourites, very nice heads. Just hope the musician is the only one with a shaved butt...  BUT they are on 20 mm bases! Oh the rage! I am glad that i haven't based my ungors yet, but i fear that 6th ed. ungors will not fit well on 20 mm bases and i don't want to think about having to rank them up on 20 mm!

SHAMAN: Quite nice, a bit overloaded with skulls.

Army shot: No skirmishers at all! Where will this lead to?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 05, 2010, 09:42:53 AM
Just what is it with GW and overdone muscles? :? Looks horrible. I doubt a better paintjob can fix this.

Anyway, thanks for uploading!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 05, 2010, 09:58:37 AM
 :mellow: no skirmishers.....ok

well we have warriors of chaos 2.0 ....so you got what no skirmishers, no flying regiments and no shooting....seems like it would be a fun army to play.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 05, 2010, 10:37:50 AM
Yup, that must be chaos warriors army number two. Damn, what is it with GW and overdone muscles? In my eyes that is plain fething ugly. Ugly. It all looks like straight out from the eighties, the worst part of it at that, and everyone is trying to mimic Arnold or He-Man.

And the skintone. Why do they make them look so soft and pink! Everything bar the Bestigors looks like they have never seen the sun and as if they will yell loudly as soon as they soft pink skin is scratched by an twig.
That is the ugliest army ever painted by heavy metal. Hands down!
And do not even bring up the image of buttsechsing going on in their camps with shaved buttocks on ungors. Poor creatures...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 05, 2010, 10:43:13 AM
wow.

Can feel... GW... hate rising....
Must... quell..... the hatred.

 :eusa_sick: :eusa_sick: :eusa_sick:

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 05, 2010, 11:46:30 AM
No calm down and have a pint, Finlay!  :::cheers:::

I am certain that you can sell those beastly figs of yours and get some value back, cause there will always be those who love a new book, cause it must be da best and will want to get stuff fast.

Lets feel some pitty instead. Pitty for the poor beastie lovers.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 05, 2010, 12:02:38 PM
I love the minotaur except for their feet.  That isn't so good.  The muscles can be taken care of with less exagerated highlighting.  This is just how GW does it.  YOu don't need to lose your mind and be so crazy with it.  I like the heads alot.

THe Bestigor... not bad, but still too unipose.  The shaman is amazing.

All in all looks good!  Not looking forward to rebasing ungor, but still, a neat looking army.  ALso not real jacked about the skirmishers being largely gone (they will still have skirmishing units available).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 05, 2010, 12:17:12 PM
I love the new minotaur heads, the bodies are so-so, the feet are ugly. But they still are an improvement over the current models.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 05, 2010, 12:28:04 PM
YOu don't need to lose your mind and be so crazy with it.

Fail to notice that this is the internet?

Quote
All in all looks good!  Not looking forward to rebasing ungor, but still, a neat looking army.

Agreed, though not too overwhelmed by the Minos muscles load - though I suppose Warriors of Chaos players will be thrilled when you mix these with the Irongut models for some nifty chaos ogres.

I am also glad to see the chaos stars removed and that they are back to the beast feel they deserve.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 05, 2010, 01:39:22 PM
I had a look at the poster again and tried to see if there are any nice details in the background i missed first.
No, there are not, the army is photoshopped from a much smaller force!
The ungor with spears regiment appears three times, the bestigors two times, the gor unit at least twice. They did not even try to shuffle the ranks  a bit or take photos from different angles.

Now, why did i post this? Sounds like another rant about how sloppy this release is made. Ah well, i post it anyways....
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 05, 2010, 01:41:10 PM
no skirmish = take away their main appeal.
I wanted something different.
Presumably there will be a scouting skirmishing unit of Ungor

The Minos are disgusting, the Shaman is meh, he looks really fat, the Bestigor all look the same, the Gors are the same as last edition, and the Ungors look basically the same.


I'll wait till the book comes out before maybe selling everything. But doesn't look good.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 05, 2010, 02:01:27 PM
.... the Shaman is meh, he looks really fat...

Somebody described him as: "He is a ball with a Gor head and limbs stuck on, covered in glue and rolled through a bitz box" Got a point there, but the model is not that bad.
The minos on the other hand....luckily this is a manly forum, otherwise i would be tempted to use a crying smiley.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 05, 2010, 02:21:11 PM
HA HA HA HA... The infamous Razorgor aka Pumba.

I can't stop laughing.

(http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78498&d=1262701027)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 05, 2010, 02:29:54 PM
Oh my.

OH. MY.

That is... not a very good model.

*desperately searches for something nice to say*

it has... very expressive eyes.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 05, 2010, 02:33:50 PM
lmao.

Who hires these clowns?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 05, 2010, 02:40:36 PM
Looks a bit like a cactus...



...any minute now...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 05, 2010, 02:44:01 PM
It looks like a Cactus had sex with a Zombie lion, and gave birth to that.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 05, 2010, 02:52:42 PM
Shit, GW found out that I really did f**k that cactus.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 05, 2010, 02:53:16 PM
Boom! :icon_biggrin:

It looks like a Cactus had sex with a Zombie lion, and gave birth to that.

No. That would actually be awesome.


Edit: I think we have something for the next painting competition. The task will be to Make Pumbagor Look Okay.

If you have less skill than Quadrille or CM Dante, don't even bother to join.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 05, 2010, 03:15:22 PM
Hilarious!

The sad thing is, if the eyes were smaller and menacing instead of comic the thing would look OK. Sure it is still a silly creature with its long spikes and the mauling tail, but is is a chaos mutation so that would be OK.
Maybe the sculpt can be saved by modelling a paperbag over its face? That would not be too hard to do!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 05, 2010, 03:21:17 PM
Sure. And the box this is sold in will have a sticker saying "Just close your eyes and think of England!"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 05, 2010, 03:25:33 PM
Hilarious!

The sad thing is, if the eyes were smaller and menacing instead of comic the thing would look OK. Sure it is still a silly creature with its long spikes and the mauling tail, but is is a chaos mutation so that would be OK.
Maybe the sculpt can be saved by modelling a paperbag over its face? That would not be too hard to do!
Yeh, the face ruins it for sure.




Edit: I think we have something for the next painting competition. The task will be to Make Pumbagor Look Okay.

If you have less skill than Quadrille or CM Dante, don't even bother to join.
So you have to buy an ugly model? No, thanks.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: t12161991 on January 05, 2010, 03:31:58 PM
You know, it seems this trend of nice new models is stopping right about now...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 05, 2010, 03:42:06 PM
I keep coming back to this thread to stare at the abomination with fascinated horror. This may very well be the ugliest GW mini I have seen so far.
There have been may I have not liked, and some I found to be ugly. But I always thought this to be matters of taste. I could even muster some understanding for those pervs who liked the old IG halfling sculpts. This one however is really, objectively, horrifyingly bad.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 05, 2010, 03:44:18 PM
On the plus side, it makes an excellent pet for Nagash the Necroclown.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Boldrick on January 05, 2010, 03:46:21 PM
I love the pumbagor  :happy:
Everything else about this release from the overmuscled minos and unipose bestigors to the lack of skirmish and new trend of leaving any relation to chaos back is just a complete failure!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 05, 2010, 03:57:53 PM
Ahh... Hakuna Matata!

Now where is Timon?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 05, 2010, 04:00:52 PM
Come to think of...
That shaved ass Ungor...

(http://www.lionking.org/imgarchive/Act_2/TimonScared.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 05, 2010, 04:58:16 PM
I'm gonna try and stay calm till I see more.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 05, 2010, 05:28:57 PM
I'm gonna try and stay calm till I see more

Try?  :icon_lol:

I read over at Warseer there is a reason the minotaurs looks like Belgian Blue according to some new/old fluff.

I am just irking for some steak myself.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Pyre on January 05, 2010, 07:32:16 PM
I hadn't seen this over here, it's from the Herdstone, so I figured I'd paste it over.

Quote
Herds have split, both ranked up but ungor get the option to skirmish
Unruly has gone
New rule for "herds"- when in combat take a leadership check.
If passed the unit gets hatred, if you roll insane courage you get hatred and frenzy. Didn't seem to be a downside if you failed.

Bestigor capture standards if they simply win a round of combat, get to add it (and any others they capture) to their combat res.

Minotaurs get frenzy if they win a round of combat, for every round they win they get a cumulative extra attack! Minos can only ever pursue or overrun 1d6 (they can now overrun)

Chariots STILL CORE

Centigor, still special not fast cav. No drunken every turn, instead roll a dice at the beginning of the game. Effects range from +2 I, to -1 movement to something else he couldn't remember.

New unit Harpies

New unit. Some kind of jabberwoky thing. Enemy units in 12" take Ld check, for every number they fail by take a wound no armour. seemed to be 5's across the board. If it takes a wound in combat enemy takes a S5 hit. 275 points.

Think he said about a gorgon thing, mainly 6's.

There was a normal giant, then there was a cyclops giant which was basically a giant with only Ld8, but armed with a stone thrower and every (enemy?) wizard within 24" has to pass a leadership check or not be able to cast spells.

Pyre

Here the link to the thread: http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=18242&st=0
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 05, 2010, 07:38:57 PM
Thanks!

I hadn't seen this over here, it's from the Herdstone, so I figured I'd paste it over.

Herds have split, both ranked up but ungor get the option to skirmish
Unruly has gone
New rule for "herds"- when in combat take a leadership check.
If passed the unit gets hatred, if you roll insane courage you get hatred and frenzy. Didn't seem to be a downside if you failed.

Not very fluffy, but okay

Bestigor capture standards if they simply win a round of combat, get to add it (and any others they capture) to their combat res.

Um, what? Sounds cooked up

Minotaurs get frenzy if they win a round of combat, for every round they win they get a cumulative extra attack!

Stocking boni? Welcome to Warhammer: The Gathering

Chariots STILL CORE

Centigor, still special not fast cav. No drunken every turn, instead roll a dice at the beginning of the game. Effects range from +2 I, to -1 movement to something else he couldn't remember.

Determining this for the whole game... don't like

New unit Harpies

Fine, I like harpies

New unit. Some kind of jabberwoky thing. Enemy units in 12" take Ld check, for every number they fail by take a wound no armour. seemed to be 5's across the board. If it takes a wound in combat enemy takes a S5 hit. 275 points.

Why not, could work. May actually be fluffy

Think he said about a gorgon thing, mainly 6's.

There was a normal giant, then there was a cyclops giant which was basically a giant with only Ld8, but armed with a stone thrower and every (enemy?) wizard within 24" has to pass a leadership check or not be able to cast spells.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 05, 2010, 09:23:52 PM
I think those rumours are bunk...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 06, 2010, 06:51:21 PM
The herdstone is exploding with rumours, apparently two people have seen the book, they tell of the same stuff so it might be true.
Bestigors seem to be a letdown whilst minos and big monsters are powerfull
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 06, 2010, 07:48:06 PM
I'm still crying about the no skirmish herds thing. Ungor army here I come!

And harpies? I have enough of those with my Dark Elves. They seem like a weird choice for beasts. I always think of them as coastal and mountainous rather than woodland.

The rest of the rumours are just kinda weird.
Title: Beastmen of Chaos Gets a Boost!
Post by: Odominus on January 06, 2010, 08:32:27 PM
Was reading about this over at Herdstone
http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=18242&st=0

New BoC looks interesting. Any thoughts on Empire strategy against them?

Check out their spells and a few noteworthy items:


Quote
Cyclops giant thing. Anti magic in a basket, not only does every wizard within 24"? need to pass a leadership check to cast spell that turn, any they fail to meet the casting value of, count as miscasts?!?! Seems insane to me.

this one seems pretty insane. 25pts. bound one use only power level 5. All enemy arcane items within 18" are destroyed. The bearer of each item that is destroyed takes d6S4 hits

Blade-blunter armour (Heavy) - end of combat phase, d6 for each magic weapon that hit bearer, 2+ weapon now mundane

We've got that Bonecrusher mace back, this time Stonecrusher, +3S and not a GW. S10 vs Steamtanks, Chariots

Magic - Lore of the Wild (7 spells!) 0-6 like the old Tzeentch
0- Bestial Surge - 7+ movement spell, doesn't make you charge though, might be faq'd

1- Viletide - 7+ 5d6 S1 24" magic missles

2 - Devolve, 9+, enemy units within 12" take ld, amount failed = # of wounds with no AS

3 - bray-scream, 10+, one character within 12" makes a breath weapon attack at s3 with no AS (I like this one)

4 - Traitor-kin, 10+, all enemy models within 12" riding a mount of any kind suffer number of attacks = mounts attacks w/ same S. same for monsters & handlers and chariots. no AS bonus for mounted or barding, etc. (Hello Hydras!   )

5 - mantle of ghorok, 13+, friendly character within 6", model gains +d6 S and +d6 S (max 10), if 1 or more 6's rolled, model suffers a wound with no saves of any kind (Interesting one, and can be potentially devastating)


6 - Savage dominion, 16+, 'summon' a giant, gorghon or jabberslythe, place at any point on table edge and move as if returning from pursuing an enemy off the table
Title: Re: Beastmen of Chaos Gets a Boost!
Post by: Siberius on January 06, 2010, 08:45:59 PM
This just all sounds too weird... I dunno if it's viable to talk about how to counter it yet when all the various rumours are flying around. As it is, there is a bunch of rumours down in the Counts Tavern too, some of which also seem pretty insane.

This should almost be merged in with that.
Title: Re: Beastmen of Chaos Gets a Boost!
Post by: Molleson on January 06, 2010, 09:08:11 PM
Some of that stuff seems a little ridiculous. Besides, I doubt they would make a lore with such high casting values.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mogsam on January 06, 2010, 09:16:31 PM
I only just saw these models... Theres nothing good about those plastics. I actually prefer Poomba by 200% to those crap fest Minotaurs.

Mogsam
Title: Re: Beastmen of Chaos Gets a Boost!
Post by: Mogsam on January 06, 2010, 09:17:06 PM
6 just gives you a free giant? That would just be crap..

Mogsam
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 06, 2010, 09:35:48 PM
I really like the Minotaurs.  The more I see them, the more I like them.  Only the hoof slippers make me irritated.

Phil
Title: Re: Beastmen of Chaos Gets a Boost!
Post by: Union General on January 06, 2010, 09:46:28 PM
6 just gives you a free giant? That would just be crap..

Mogsam

I sense a powergamer's delight...

-The General
Title: Re: Beastmen of Chaos Gets a Boost!
Post by: Old Stonebeard on January 06, 2010, 09:56:46 PM
I'm not sure which is worse, the "insane" rumors or the Herohammer powercreep that makes them plausible...  :closed-eyes:

Damn "target player" nubbishes wanting armies that win the game on a 3+... :eusa_wall:

- S.S.


Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Raulmichile on January 06, 2010, 10:23:59 PM

I agree, they aren't that bad.  My fear is about beasts army becoming a "Naked Warriors of Chaos" list as others stated instead of a barbarian type of army.
Title: Re: Beastmen of Chaos Gets a Boost!
Post by: Odominus on January 06, 2010, 10:27:07 PM
Run 2 Cyclops and you effectively nerf DoC, VC, HE, and anyone else using a lot of PD.

Can spell #6 summon a Cyclops???

Lol this nerfs Nehek spammers BADLY!!


And for a mere 25pts, a chance to destroy all arcane items in an 18" range and does damage?? O U C H.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 06, 2010, 10:44:08 PM
Those minotaurs hit so freaking hard now.  S5 with WS4 and the option for cumulative frenzy is amazing!

Phil
Title: Re: Beastmen of Chaos Gets a Boost!
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on January 06, 2010, 10:54:16 PM
So when is GW just going to come out with a new book that says "this is the new I win at all times army" with all 10's in all profiles and magic always casts on a 2 plus irresistable force on any doubles removing whole units to the chaos warp per casting, all for only 50 points per caster.  I'm hoping the fantasy game doen't continue it's spiral into power schmoeing.  But I'm sure I'll be shown that I'm wrong to hope so.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 06, 2010, 11:14:23 PM
Have you actually read the rumors?  If you honestly think thats a power gaming army, you aren't paying attention.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 07, 2010, 12:16:49 AM
The magic levels is definately a hint that the magic system in 8th will get a complete overhaul.

And I am with PhillyT on the rest.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Union General on January 07, 2010, 01:29:27 AM

And harpies? I have enough of those with my Dark Elves. They seem like a weird choice for beasts. I always think of them as coastal and mountainous rather than woodland.

They could also be interpreted as some kind of weird flying squirrel from hell...  :icon_eek:

-The General
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 07, 2010, 01:41:34 AM
Ooh the conversion possibilities flooding my brain...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 07, 2010, 02:53:20 AM
God, the gorgon is really not bad at all.  Look at this:

1. Has straight 6's across the board essentially plus a LD10 stubborn.\
2. Is ItP, terror, and killing blow on 6 attacks.
3.  Can forgo all attacks to make one attack with killing blow 4+ and gains d3 wounds back.

He is a better tarpit than the giant.  He can smash a unit until he gets nipped a little, then just crush some random soldier and gain a couple wounds back.  I still think he is behind the Jabberwocky, which answers beast flying monster problem, and the Cygor, who is an all around monster (shut down magic phase, throws rocks, still has 6 S6 attacks at WS2...).  The Giant is probably there too since he is 65 points cheaper than the others.

The Razorgor sound fantastic too.  Too bad the bestigor will continue to be tit useless.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 07, 2010, 09:18:13 AM
The Gorgon sounds just nuts!
Glad that for once there is an army that does not really make Wood elves even more crap. I even think they could stand their ground... Well, besides the stupid monsters...
Anything with flaming attacks yet?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 07, 2010, 09:29:24 AM
Nope, no flaming attacks at all. And only a single item giving a wardsave...versus flaming attacks.  :dry:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 07, 2010, 10:29:57 AM
Oiii! No wards? But surely they must have somekind of regeneration? If so, the Ward against flaming attacks is most likely there to protect a character with regen a bit more?

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 07, 2010, 11:51:51 AM
Yes there is a regeneration save.  And the same model can get a great AS and the fire ward.

BEasts don't really need too many ward saves.  Who needs characters with wards unless you plan on throwing down on characters in challenges?  The beasts seem to need characters less since they have hordes of models with large numbers of high strength attacks.  A single minotaur is goign to do about the same amount of damage as a wargor in combat.

Plus chariots are still core!

YES!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 07, 2010, 12:19:23 PM
that Devolve spell is rubbish!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 07, 2010, 12:22:17 PM
Can Beasts still take Death or Shadow magic?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 07, 2010, 12:43:47 PM
Don't know Gnu. I do know the rum0ours of a new lore for them have been around for a while.

I showed my GF the razorgor last night, she said "it looks like the warthog from the lion king"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 07, 2010, 12:49:51 PM
Why does everyone need a new spell list these days?

8 colors + high + dark +  necromancy =  enough!


There's a Jabberwock in the list? Is there a model? I want one if so. Provided it looks better than the other new stuff, which it can hardly fail to.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 07, 2010, 01:13:02 PM
Allegedly, it looks like the illegitimate offspring of the Pumbagor and a Minotaur.

With a shaved backside.


Just kidding.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 07, 2010, 01:24:25 PM
No, they will probably do the same thing as with Skaven abomination, and not bother.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 07, 2010, 01:37:52 PM
What's the point of that?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 07, 2010, 01:39:53 PM
Perhaps for the best. Nobody knows how a Jabberwocky is supposed to look like anyway. Just make your own!

On a side note, I wonder whether the German translators will bother to use the term as it was originally translated from the Lewis Carroll poem. That would be awesome. But my hopes are not high.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 07, 2010, 01:45:20 PM
Jabberwocks look like this:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/TheJabberwocky.jpg/250px-TheJabberwocky.jpg)

Yes, even in warhammer. Check out the 3rd edition rules.


p.s. the poem is called Jabberwocky, not the creature.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 07, 2010, 01:49:51 PM
Right, sorry, the creature is just the "Jabberwock".

I always thought that this picture was just an artists' interpretation, not from Carroll himself. Hm.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 07, 2010, 03:58:51 PM
shamen can still take the lores of shadow and death (and beasts i think). Info from the herdstone.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 07, 2010, 04:03:07 PM
I always thought that this picture was just an artists' interpretation, not from Carroll himself. Hm.

I think it was in the book anyway.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: jullevi on January 07, 2010, 04:21:28 PM
There is so much oddity in forthcoming Beastmen release I still don't believe it. Last time they did Beastmen (2003), they sculpted:

Chaos Ogres
Chaos Trolls
Shaggoth
Khorngor
Pestigor

Ogres, Trolls and Shaggoth (and Dragon Ogres) didn't make into new book and Chaos marks were dropped altogether. What the heck?

There has also been lots of mourning about splitting Beast herds and Ungors returning back on 20 mm bases, but personally I find this as one of the few good decisions - although a slightly annoying one. I would actually say that GW screwed it last time. Mixed herd was a stupid concept to begin with and what was equally stupid was the ratio of Gors to Ungors that came in the box. They should have made separate boxes for each back in 2003 (with 5th edition base sizes), but perhaps they didn't have the resources for more than one plastic set.

And one thing I really don't understand is rules for units without models. It started with Warriors of Chaos (not counting Daemons here) Warshrine and Forsaken, got totally out of hand with Skaven and it sounds like Beastmen are also getting some tempting big monsters with no model support. GW has mentioned that they are miniatures company first and foremost, so why are they releasing rules for something like Hellpit Abomination or Jabber-thingamabobs?

Don't get me started on "quality" of new models.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 07, 2010, 05:12:09 PM
What do you think about the quality of the new models?
 
:engel:

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 07, 2010, 06:02:31 PM
Had the minos had S5 and looked like the old ones, I would have wondered how.

My Ogres sure have more bulk than that.

The new ones look like they all have S5 and rising (really, really far...).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 08, 2010, 04:02:17 AM
I love it when you say rising...

And Jullevi, Chaos ogres are around 15+ years old.  They didn't get scultped last edition.  ALso, pestigor and khornagor were a second wave, not from 2003.  I think it was about a year later.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 08, 2010, 04:06:29 AM
Do you guys believe most of the rumours are true?

That giant with stone thrower and all wizards need to pass a ld test within 24" to cast spells and any double is a miscast just sounds unbelievable wrong...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Odominus on January 08, 2010, 04:45:15 AM
Do you guys believe most of the rumours are true?

That giant with stone thrower and all wizards need to pass a ld test within 24" to cast spells and any double is a miscast just sounds unbelievable wrong...


Nick, it has no ward/regen saves...  just shoot it with cannons and take it out before you have to start taking leadership tests.  Keep your mages close to your General for the 1st turn.

I think Empire should match up well against the new Beasts. A Stank can put a hurtin on them big time as well.


Btw, from what I understand, doubles don't count as miscasts. If you do not successfully cast the spell, THEN it counts as a miscast. Even nastier.  I can see a nasty combo with the Doom and Darkness spell and the Cyclops' anti magic effect...(not sure if Death lore is avail..)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 08, 2010, 10:09:33 AM
Do you guys believe most of the rumours are true?

That giant with stone thrower and all wizards need to pass a ld test within 24" to cast spells and any double is a miscast just sounds unbelievable wrong...

There are strong hints that 8th ed. will have a wacky magic phase and that both Skavens and Beastmen, with the next army (most points to Ogres), are written with it in mind so I am not surprised that the cyclop sound insane.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 08, 2010, 11:31:43 AM
Does 'wacky magic phase' mean wizards will all die the moment they try to cast a spell? Because that could be fun.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 08, 2010, 11:52:30 AM
Does 'wacky magic phase' mean wizards will all die the moment they try to cast a spell?

Yes and they will be the most popular hero choice, much like Halberdiers and regular Goblins...

I suspect there won't be any more dice pools and such, and the level of the wizard is bound somehow to how many dice he can use each time he casts a spell (so no more level 4 with only 4 dice). Or something like that.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 08, 2010, 12:13:00 PM
I'm still hoping the winds of magic come back. Everything else from 4th edition is on the way back, so why not that too.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 08, 2010, 12:16:21 PM
Yeah, as Avian implied, more reliavbility in casting spells, fewer possible spells per turn.

As for Stanks against beastmen?  Not a good idea in an army so full of potential S6 and S7 attacks.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 08, 2010, 12:26:02 PM
so they wrote an army book where you can take a lord which counts as two level 4 wizards.

And then they are going to nerft the magic phase?

insanity.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 08, 2010, 12:28:07 PM
Did they? Was that in the demon book?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 08, 2010, 01:08:26 PM
They aren't nerfing the magic phase, read the post again.

They seem to be realising that makeing spells random, then making it random to see if a spell can even be cast forces people to either go big on magic or not at all.  So they are reducing how many spells a wizard can dump while increasing the odds that each individual spell is cast successfully.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 08, 2010, 02:01:47 PM
those beasts spells have high casting values and are pretty crap.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 08, 2010, 02:26:48 PM
Well, hence they force you to decide. Do you commit to magic, that will be more reliable in the spells going of, BUT what spell you can cast may not be all that certain... Or something like that. I was never part of that 4th ed.
But if they make me feel more comfortable about facing potentially magic heavy forces with a combat oriented force, I might be a happy camper. Asrais magic resistance may start to pay off for once...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 08, 2010, 03:46:15 PM
those beasts spells have high casting values and are pretty crap.

Again, for the gazillionth time, it is written with 8th in mind.

You know, wacky magic and so on.

Probably so much wackiness that a few members here will hang themselves because of GW's treachery and dark plots of evil.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 08, 2010, 04:24:12 PM
No, no! Please! Not that!!!

Ahh, the pain! What shalt I do! Must I write a long deathwall before I stick the head through the nose and say "Farewell cruel world!" :unsure:

I better start writing my will soon then. Since if Shadowlord is correct, since he must be referring to me, since I AM the senior grumbler in this establishment. So please, Shadowlord, say it´s not true! Please tell me my halberdiers and spearmens will finally get to shine and I can have an army with little magic and walk proudly and defeat the wicked mages and that...

Just tell me how long I have left to live! Be direct, I can take it! When must have have finished my will and made the necessary arrangements?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 08, 2010, 04:30:04 PM
I AM the senior grumbler in this establishment.

Not so much senior as most persistent.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 08, 2010, 04:33:49 PM
Presistent? Me? I don´t see where you are coming form... :closed-eyes: :icon_razz:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 08, 2010, 05:31:56 PM
those beasts spells have high casting values and are pretty crap.

Again, for the gazillionth time, it is written with 8th in mind.

You know, wacky magic and so on.

Probably so much wackiness that a few members here will hang themselves because of GW's treachery and dark plots of evil.

is wacky synonymous with crap?

But it does need fixing, as it is the easiest loophole to expolit to make disgusting armies.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 08, 2010, 05:42:35 PM
Nobody is really sure what the magic phase changes will be, but Avian, the guy who has seen some of the information (which is what I was referring to in my post) described it as "wacky" which is why I think Shadowlord used that term.  He also said Wacky in this case is not bad.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 08, 2010, 06:41:29 PM
Well, he also said some people here will most likely hang themselves when 8th ed comes. :unsure:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Union General on January 08, 2010, 06:46:26 PM
Well, he also said some people here will most likely hang themselves when 8th ed comes. :unsure:

Speaking of which, when IS 8th edition supposed to come around?

-The General
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 08, 2010, 07:32:53 PM
Well, he also said some people here will most likely hang themselves when 8th ed comes. :unsure:

Yes because if W-E.com would be in charge of 8th, you'll get the same nr. of different copies as there are members.

And five that was full of fail (and thus hate).
 
8th is out this summer.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 08, 2010, 07:41:29 PM
Hey! I have nothing against a new ed! As long as it conforms to my wishes I am a happy camper!  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 08, 2010, 07:57:21 PM
Nice!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 08, 2010, 09:30:11 PM
Make love to us...

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Other/m800039a_2010-01-08_1_873x627.jpg)

GW is updating their site now with the new models.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 08, 2010, 09:36:44 PM
Are those muscles or crazy paving?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 08, 2010, 09:46:56 PM
Hey, that was funny... a week ago when we first saw them.

I was just about to post that pic Shadowlord.  Here is the advanced order link:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=7300005a (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=7300005a)

The Herdstone has some great info too:

Quote
Gorbull 160pts, 4 wounds, Str 5.

Cygor: No mention of line of sight required for ability

Special Characters:
Gorthor: Lord
Khazrak: Lord, allows re-roll of ambush dice
Morghur: Hero, nothing like before, only one model per turn, but 12" thing still in
Other Guy Shaman: Hero, roll a D6 for every enemy unit at the start of the game, 1-3 Nothing Happens, 4-5 D3 Wounds no Save, 6 D6 wounds no save
Malagor: can fly and do things
Some guy riding a two headed thing called umbralack or something
Centigor, give centigor +2WS and core
Minotaur, 6 St 6 attacks No Armour Save. Pretty hardcore, but the guy in the armour rule is really bad
Ungor Four Horn: Lvl 1 Wiz. allows re-roll of bestial rage or whatever it's called

The magic items listed are there, there's a few more, one of which is the beasts version of the sacrificial dagger. Every model killed by this dagger is put to one side and may be used as power dice. Another cloak thing that allows shaman to scout, there's some really cool stuff in there.

Skirmishing ungor are not 0-1 and count towards core choices models arent too bad 6pts each, unit size 5-10, harpies 11pts, +6pts for scout.

Only models in the book we haven't seen yet are:

Ungor with bows, which look like ungor with bows, some of the heads are ridiculous though.
Centigor SC, looks ok
Pumbagor, they painted it a ver similar colour to pumba. the eye looks hilarious with the iris painted red, far too cartoony.

Quote

Beastman General Rules

Primal Rage: Each Unit in Close Combat must take a LD Test if the Unit passes the Test the Unit is subject to Hatred. If the Unit rolls a Double 1 on the Test the Unit is also subject to Frenzy even if they lost it in previous Turns.

Ambush: The Player may place as many units as he likes into the Ambush as long there is a Unit of the same Type and Unit Size for each Unit on the Table. In the remaining Movement Phase the Beastman Player rolls a D6 and moves the Unit over the table side due the following results

1: The Enemy choose over which Side the Unit enters
2-3: The Unit does not enter the Game reroll at the Beastman Players next Turn
4: The Unit enters the Table over the Left Side
5: The Unit enters the Table over the Right Side
6: The Player chooses over which Table Side the Unit appears.

If the Unit can't be deployed on the Table Side which was diced the Result of 1 is used.

The Army List

Lords

Great Beast Lord
Man Curse: the Unit that accompany the Character may reroll Primal Rage if the Beastman Army is facing an Empire or Bretonnian Army
Primal Rage: see above.
May take 100 Points of Magic Items and Chaos Gifts.
May ride a Tuskgor or Razorgor Chariot.

Minotaur Lord
Fear
Frenzy
Blood Greed
D3 Impact Hits
Call of Slaughter: the Unit accompany the Character may change Primal Rage for Frenzy
May take 100 Points of Magic Items and Chaos Gifts.

Great Bray Shaman
Wizard may use Lore of Death, Beasts one i don' t remember and the Lore of the Dark Woods
Primal Rage
May take 100 Points of Magic Items and Chaos Gifts.

Heroes
Beast Lord
Man Curse
Primal Rage
Battle Standard Bearer
May take 50 Points of Magic Items and Chaos Gifts.
May ride a Tuskgor or Razorgor Chariot.

Minotaur Hero
Fear
Frenzy
Blood Greed
Battle Standard Bearer
D3 Impact Hits
Call of Slaughter: the Unit accompany the Character may change Primal Rage for Frenzy
May take 50 Points of Magic Items and Chaos Gifts.

Great Bray Shaman
Wizard may use Lore of Death, Beasts one i don' t remember and the Lore of the Dark Woods
Primal Rage
May take 50 Points of Magic Items and Chaos Gifts.

Core

Gor Herd: Primal Rage, Ambush
Ungor Herd: Primal Rage, Ambush
Ungor Scavenger Herd: Primal Rage, Ambush, Skirmisher can be equiped with Short Bows
Tuskgor Chariot
Chaos Dogs

Special

Minotaurs: Blood Greed Fear 1 Impact Hit
Centigors: Primal Rage, Drunk different profile changes on a D6
Harpies: Flying Unit may upgrade to Scouts
Bestigors
Razorgor Chariot: Fear, Rumbling Charge +1S
Razorgor Herd: Fear, Rumbling Charge +1S

Rare

Cygor: Cyclop Type of Monster
May throw Stones like a Stone Thrower. No minimal Range on Misfire he lose on Wound. May move and shoot.
Wizards in 24" must take a LD Test if failed each Miscast becomes a Magic Blooper

Grindelak: Fly, Immune Psychology, Large Target, Poison Attacks, Terror

Ghorgor: Giant Minotaur, Blood Greed, Frenzy Immune Psychology, Large Target, Relentless, Terror

Chaos Spawn: much like WoC Army BooK

Chaos Giant: much lke WoC Army Book.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 08, 2010, 09:54:16 PM
Pretty decent rules, some nifty especially against Empire players, some less so against others.

Will have a hard time now against the beastman player in our group.

Used to pulverise his beasties but with these rules, I will definately be in a disadvantage.

In a good way.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 08, 2010, 10:08:24 PM
Those ungor archers looks sweet.

Way too sweet to be a no-no to buy...

And the mino sprues looks awesome.

All in all a  :::cheers::: release (much like the Tyranids).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Odominus on January 08, 2010, 10:10:16 PM
Lol all the racial hatred towards humans?!

Whats not to love??
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 08, 2010, 10:23:58 PM
Hey, that was funny... a week ago when we first saw them.

I hadn't seen them before.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 08, 2010, 10:24:58 PM
is wacky synonymous with crap?

No, it's like Wacky Races.

So actually, yes.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 08, 2010, 10:26:27 PM
I'm actually warming more and more to the minotaur models, really the only part I still do have a problem with are the feet. Those just don't look like hooves, but like really unkempt toenails. The rest of the models on the preorder page look pretty sweet as well (except for pumba. I just pretend that model doesn't exist), I especially like the bestigor models.
Pity they decided to make it all so freaking expensive after the pretty reasonable pricing of the Skaven. Oh well. Perhaps I will fall for them one day nonetheless. Beastmen are one of my oldest warhammer loves.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 08, 2010, 10:31:13 PM
Hey, they are expensive actually. And a bit rubbish.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 08, 2010, 10:50:18 PM
It's all a bit overwhelming. But I think it's mainly just my poor little brain trying to cope with the lack of skirmishy hordes.

I'm sure once I get going with them, I'll fall in love again.

As to the new models, they work. The herds are so similar that they will easily fit with the old ones.

The centigor hero is very cool looking but why only one new shaman and the special character one at that. I suppose we'll just have to buy him and use him as a common shaman.

Haven't checked the rules yet, have to do that later.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 08, 2010, 11:20:12 PM
Hey, they are expensive actually. And a bit rubbish.
Which ones do you think are rubbish? Surely you don't hate all of them?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 08, 2010, 11:33:47 PM
I don't hate them. I just don't like them very much.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 09, 2010, 12:44:30 AM
I actually really like the new Doombull.

but its 25 quid! holy guacamole.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 09, 2010, 02:16:49 AM
I doubt I will use him with a GW.  I will be using the twin axes of khorgor, so my current model works well.  THough the gorbull could use the GW for S7...

Hmmm...

Ah hell, you know I will get one anyway.  Who am I kidding?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 09, 2010, 07:29:16 AM
those rules look quite nice, still don't like the cyclops rules. Models look awesome though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 09, 2010, 12:46:16 PM
is the doombull $40?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2010, 12:54:10 PM
Priced the same as Thraka, Tyrant etc.

Not something new.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 09, 2010, 01:07:33 PM
And the tradition of overexpensive plastic elites that in the are not worth their points is continued with the Bestigors. Sigh...
I am glad my son are in for the greenskins, since the Black orcs are still more reasonable pricewise.

In these pics the ungor and gors looks okay, though. And Razorgor could be represented by bears....  :engel:

No, Mathi, stop it! No Beasties, you got your work cut out with the Empire, Wood elves and Dwarfs! Gah... restrain yourself!

But then, celtic tribesmen could count as ungors... And why not let barbarian fanatics represent Gors....
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mogsam on January 09, 2010, 01:44:41 PM
Stop giving every bloody thing hatred! It's not even funny anymore!

Why are the Minotaurs Ł27? The Ogres are Ł18 for 6 and not nearly as crap as those models. The Beastigors are pointlessly expensive as well.

Mogsam
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2010, 01:47:16 PM
Why are the Minotaurs Ł27?

Because they are still much cheaper than three metal versions.

Yeah, metal is great because you cut yourself, paint chips, and everything needs to be pinned.

We get it!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 09, 2010, 02:05:43 PM
they were Ł12 each, werent they?
So a reasonable reduction for three. (apart from the fact they suck).

I wonder if a horde intensive chariot army would still work.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mogsam on January 09, 2010, 02:08:56 PM
They'd still be much cheaper than 3 if they were Ł20.

Mogsam
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 09, 2010, 02:14:30 PM
@Shadowlord:
Maybe. But 27 for three infantry models is still pretty damn expensive, don't you think? That has nothing to do with GW hate, so please hold the knee-jerk reaction. I'm glad they made them plastic, and they are clearly superior to the old - in my opinion - butt-ugly mino models. But come on! Do you really feel that this price is justified? And then look at how much more expensive the Gors and Ungors have become. How much was the old box with 18 models? 20? Now you pay 15 for 10. This is pretty prohibitive man, considering those are the mainstay troops of the army. Then the doombull. 25 for a single model on foot. You okay with that?
I realize no one is forcing anyone to buy anything, but I would have liked to. And if I don't buy everything at once, I can even afford it. That doesn't mean I can't raise an eyebrow at prices that seem all over the place. Especially if you look, as I recommended earlier, at the pricing of the Skaven. 20 for 20 models. That's a good deal. 15 for 10 is not.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2010, 02:40:07 PM
@Shadowlord:
Maybe. But 27 for three infantry models is still pretty damn expensive, don't you think? That has nothing to do with GW hate, so please hold the knee-jerk reaction. I'm glad they made them plastic, and they are clearly superior to the old - in my opinion - butt-ugly mino models. But come on! Do you really feel that this price is justified?

You suck, you GW hater!

 :icon_rolleyes:

Seriously, I am not justifying any prices, just telling you why they are priced that way and that they are cheaper than before. If you have a problem with the price today regarding the minos, how come you kept silent about the metal counterparts?

Quote
Then the doombull. 25 for a single model on foot.

Did you complain about Thraka's, Tyrant etc. prices? They are the same and are old models.

I'm not saying these prices are OK, but looking at your posts it is just BS since you definately don't blow that much steam against old models that cost more or similar.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2010, 02:40:47 PM
I wonder if a horde intensive chariot army would still work.

Beware terror causers as they lost the reroll IIRC.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 09, 2010, 02:52:32 PM
From the list, it looks like the beast battles will depend on if the Minos get into combat with you before they got shot up, or not.

I expect to see a lot of those anti magic cyclopses too.

I'm pretty upset as I enjoyed painting the beasts, and wanted an army that was "different".
Maybe I go for WE now.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 09, 2010, 02:54:11 PM
Seriously, I am not justifying any prices, just telling you why they are priced that way and that they are cheaper than before. If you have a problem with the price today regarding the minos, how come you kept silent about the metal counterparts?
Because I hadn't seriously considered getting a beastman army until now, and found the models butt-ugly? But silence on the subject doesn't imply that I would have considered the prices reasonable.
Did you complain about Thraka's, Tyrant etc. prices? They are the same and are old models.

I'm not saying these prices are OK, but looking at your posts it is just BS since you definately don't blow that much steam against old models that cost more or similar.
Again, I don't (or didn't) blow off steam on this because I play neither Tyranids nor Orcs, and as such wasn't even aware of those prices until you told me. I play Imperial Guard, CSM, Skaven, TK and Empire. There are many models GW produces that I consider overpriced, and again, that ain't blind GW hate. As a matter of fact, you didn't react favorably when the plastic Greatswords were released, as I recall. And as I pointed out in my example, the seeming randomness of it is what really pisses me off. Look at the CSM Demon Prince. A big-ass lump of metal and a HQ model. Costs 18. See what I mean? And the fact that I like this army a lot and just had a major turnoff because of this.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 09, 2010, 03:11:38 PM
Still, Shadowlord, the prices for many of the metal minis where raised as late as last year and quite markedly so. I never compare prizes with what is present, because when the GW released the Greatswords, for example, it co-incided with a price rise to help masking the poor exchange ratio between metal and plastic.
Because this is an obvious market trick to lure the less attentive consumers, I will always check with a prices some year back and compare from there, before they made their cover-up move. Note that this not hate since I know this is a standard marketing ploy many companies uses. However, since I see through the ploy I realize it is done to trick me into showing greater acceptance, and frankly, I cannot do it, since I understand their motives are not customer friendly, like they claim, but that it is done with the companys profits firstly.
But no company can say that openly, so they rather talk in customer friendly terms etc, even when that is a lie. Hence, since they lie to me, I don´t trust their judgement, since I don´t trust liars, regardless of their motives. Had they been honest and upfront (Hey, we know this hurts your wallets but we have to do it or the company might go bust) I would have accepted it. But trying to fool, thinking I would not see through the trick?

BUT I say this. The Three minotaurs are less annoying, because after all, even if you considered old prices since years back, with really Buttugly figs, they are better today. I still would buy ogres instead.

But here GW:s mechanism of precieved unit awesomeness pricing springs in. Ogre bulls are core troops, hence they come cheaper and you get 6 of them. Minotaurs are special awesomeness and hence more expensive cause of their gamewise awesomeness.
Remember that Ogre Ironguts are also more costly than Ogre bulls, despite being core, since you only get 4 of them instead of 6 bulls.

That pricing mechanism of precieved unit awesomeness assraped the Goldswords, since they where the trendsetter. Black Orcs, despite being special, where only a tad more expensive than what a hypotethical box of 10 orc boys would be. Same with lizardmen Temple guards, Grave guards and such... Until GW decided to up the charge by throwing in extra bits and introduced the new Goldsword standard.
Since then we have had both Goldvermin and now Goldbestigors.

I mean, if some commentors are to be belived, the Bestigors will not be any better at all, bar for some occasional funky rule, but they will still be more expensive, just because they are special. So GW seems hellbent on forcing people to pay overprice for elite infantry, which is NOT as good gamewise as the pricetag could indicate, but really a moneysink.

Still, warmachines like cannons and such are still reasonably affordable, so you see where people will go to fill their rare and specials? Not Elite infantry if they are aware of what you get for your money, and I believe every customer, rich or poor, should always think as a considering consumer. The only way supply and demand can work in the favour of both parties is if the consumers are considerant when it comes to what they pay for.

And to charge some extra money just because you cram in more extras on the basic frame, compared to what you got on the state troop frames, is not really consumer friendly, but just another trick.
I want maximum numbers of models for my money! I can´t afford to pay loads for stuff I will not have use for in years, just because they can cram it in there. Cram in a pair of extra troopers instead and make a special box for extras please.
Give me a choice in the matter! Those who love to make lots and lots of custom work regardless of the cost and those with the extra money WILL buy the upgrade bitz kits, and we who can´t afford it can still get ourselves an army, albeit not as falshy.

What is wrong with providing that choice? I only ask for that and why am I wrong in my considerations, Shadowlord? Can you just explain what I should do, and why it is wrong of me, in GW:s eyes, to see alternative sources of models? To me, it feels as if they are trying to tell me they don´t want me or my son as customers anymore.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 09, 2010, 03:18:13 PM
Shadowlord & Aldaris, keep it up! :icon_biggrin: Fun to see unstoppable rage vs. unshakeable politeness...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2010, 05:00:46 PM
Because I hadn't seriously considered getting a beastman army until now, and found the models butt-ugly? But silence on the subject doesn't imply that I would have considered the prices reasonable.

Never said you did, but this is the same "new army - must rage on-line" syndrome that happens each time something new is released.

Prices can't come as a surprise now can they?

Quote
As a matter of fact, you didn't react favorably when the plastic Greatswords were released, as I recall.

Correct!

But around my parts GW is getting more attention now because the supplements for say 40K has been luring people to buy vast amount of minis.

Prices have not affected those players.

Quote
And as I pointed out in my example, the seeming randomness of it is what really pisses me off. Look at the CSM Demon Prince. A big-ass lump of metal and a HQ model. Costs 18. See what I mean? And the fact that I like this army a lot and just had a major turnoff because of this.

Random is just now, before the new plastic prince is released.

---

Mathi, GW ain't forcing anyone to buy their products.

You can always buy cheaper miniatures and play with them in the stores of those companies.

Oh wait, they don't have any stores...

See, cheaper models with a garage cost at most.

Until GW decided to up the charge by throwing in extra bits and introduced the new Goldsword standard.
Since then we have had both Goldvermin and now Goldbestigors.

Your reasoning is faulty, and not relevant with the price hikes as these are cheaper or similar to the old counterparts.

Talk about core then yes, the difference is more noticable.

Now before I get banned, let's get this one back on topic.

PhillyT?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2010, 05:11:17 PM
From the list, it looks like the beast battles will depend on if the Minos get into combat with you before they got shot up, or not.

No, only if you are a WAAC tournament player.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 09, 2010, 05:32:15 PM

Never said you did, but this is the same "new army - must rage on-line" syndrome that happens each time something new is released.

Prices can't come as a surprise now can they?
If you consider what I did "rage", you should see me angry...
 :-D
Case in point: I voiced a concern, in a calm and reasonable way. If that gets your fighting refexes going because of the topic, that's not my fault.
And prices actually can come as a surprise, a pleasant one. See Skaven.
But I guess everything has been said, so I'm happy to bow out of this particular discussion as well. Pint?
 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Klaus Von Dunkelberg on January 09, 2010, 06:15:20 PM
There is so much oddity in forthcoming Beastmen release I still don't believe it. Last time they did Beastmen (2003), they sculpted:

Chaos Ogres
Chaos Trolls
Shaggoth
Khorngor
Pestigor

Ogres, Trolls and Shaggoth (and Dragon Ogres) didn't make into new book and Chaos marks were dropped altogether. What the heck?

I don't know if this should of been a surprise to me, but it was. I think that Pestigors and Khorngors had too short of a run. I feel the same now as I did when I bought Chaos Trolls to use in my O&G army right before the BfSP-Slugdrool type Trolls were released. There aren't enough sculpts of those by the way, which is another discussion. The point I'm trying to make, Games Workshop needs to slow the tempo on new rules and models. I guess there are people screaming for this unit or that to receive updated models, but the outcome is like a damn pandora's box. In this case what came forth was the Razorgor. I just hope they never release anything so terribly awful for any of the armies I love.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 09, 2010, 06:28:32 PM
They won't slow the rate of releases. New releases keep the excitement of players up and make them buy stuff. Simple really. And not a bad thing either. First, consider the outrage if they actually did slow the rate of releases. Then it would take even longer for out-of-date armies to be brought up to speed. Second, it's just sound business strategy. Nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sanctus on January 09, 2010, 06:56:26 PM
the beasts book apparantly had lost evrything that made it unique.

when i think beasts i think herd rule , ambush and what not.

Gors/ungors are now separate units , ambush is removed. Beasts now rank up with no skirmish.
A lot of the rules for minotaurs requires to much dice rolling to reliable.

It sounds like a book thats been a big let down even though there was a lot oh hype about it.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2010, 07:03:49 PM
It sounds like a book thats been a big let down even though there was a lot oh hype about it.

On the contrary, this release is the most silent yet.

Even the internet buzz was slow, especially since those who had seen the models long before release, weren't too impressed.

I am warming towards the Beastmen everytime I take a look at the models (well the razorgor just makes me laugh...).

Also I am very intrigued by this Moonclaw character...

@ Aldaris, I was never angry or anything. I just type the way I talk.  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 09, 2010, 07:08:13 PM
I don't like most of the models and still find the Minos utterly ridiculous, but some of those rules PhillyT posted are nice. The ambush rule in particular is very easy to comprehend and to handle.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Klaus Von Dunkelberg on January 09, 2010, 07:12:43 PM
I am warming towards the Beastmen everytime I take a look at the models (well the razorgor just makes me laugh...).

I'm convinced there has to be some way to paint the Razorgor's eyes to make it look less goofy. Maybe solid black (highlighted gray on the edges) with very small red-to-orange-to-yellow pupils.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on January 09, 2010, 07:29:51 PM
I had the GW sales email today.
Some highlights:


Ungor Herd
 Ungor are the smaller cousins of the Gor and though less physically impressive, are far more cunning and dextrous. Now able to carry short bows and skirmish, Ungor are essential to the success of any warherd.

Razorgor
Razorgor are a brand-new unit type that charge into enemy units like living chariots, delivering four Strength 6 Attacks.

Everything else was already around or just BS sales
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 09, 2010, 07:51:21 PM
Well, the minos are clearly modelled on Belgian blues so that is at least pretty humouristic.

Well, like Aldaris, I voiced my concerns about GW wanting to estrange part of their customers and attract other groups. Is customer concerns always wrong, Shadowlord?
I have never liked GW:s idea about prizing according to precieved awesomeness and never will, but that is another point. Plastic is cheaper, give me cheaper and not just be some measly fraction!  :icon_razz:  Well, to some extent at least.

I found the price differentiation between the Orcs and Black orcs fair for example, same with undead and so on. But then it skyrocketed, seemingly based on some assumption that multipart models where more expensive to produce for some reason. I don´t by that until I get an unbiased person give me a neutral answer that reinforces that.

Anyway, I don´t see why you get angry when I was not really that condencending but tried to just reason my case. Still friends, Shadowlord?  :::cheers:::


Anyway, I am warming towards the beastly units, but I can´t but feel the belgian blues became a tad to silly and oldfashioned.
The Pumbagor is growing to my fancy tough. But I want a Timon to go with it!  :icon_razz:

You seem to be connected Shadowlord. Can´t you try and use your leverage to force GW into making a special character pair for Beasts?  :engel:


Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 09, 2010, 07:58:46 PM
Is customer concerns always wrong, Shadowlord?

If you are a customer who is less profitable to a company than your common man, without a doubt.

Quote
Anyway, I don´t see why you get angry when I was not really that condencending but tried to just reason my case. Still friends, Shadowlord?  :::cheers:::

Um... I'm not angry, but I do not sit idle and watch people write stuff that aren't exactly true or relevant.

Quote
Can´t you try and use your leverage to force GW into making a special character pair for Beasts?  :engel:

I'm not connected, a friend is, but rest assured, the web will soon be crawling with Razorgors that has a small buddy riding on it...  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 09, 2010, 08:40:43 PM
I am distressed how sad some of the comment here are.

Some things:

The only thing Beastmen lost was mixed herds.  If you really think that is all that set them apart, you never should have touched the models or the book to begin with.  They still have plenty of skirmishers, including core ones for a cheap price, they still have core chariots, big monsters, ambush, and freaky characters.

Whats the issue?  Not mised herds?  Like I didn't hear enough wining about the rules with those...

As for the price of the models, $20 for a minotaur was too high. $45 for three?  Good.  Plus those of use who want them will buy them.  The more I see the models, they more I love them.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: jullevi on January 09, 2010, 09:05:59 PM
They also lost Chaos Trolls, Ogres, Dragon Ogres, Dragon Ogre Shaggoth and Marks of Chaos, which explains a lot of the frustration.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 09, 2010, 09:43:45 PM
None of those defined the beastmen, they were parts of the WoC book.  Besides, most beast players used Minotaurs, not those models.

Marks are gone, but they have been replaced with race specific rules and mutations.  More characterful to me.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Taureus on January 09, 2010, 09:53:07 PM
None of those defined the beastmen, they were parts of the [strike]WoC[/strike] HoC book.  Besides, most beast players used Minotaurs, not those models.

Marks are gone, but they have been replaced with race specific rules and mutations.  More characterful to me.

Phil

Fixed.

And all these wacky new rules make me wanna play a new army... :dry:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 09, 2010, 10:01:16 PM
Well, I gotta do dwarfs first, even if the idea of using Warlord celts as base for an army is smashing and better value for money (sorry for cursing, Shadowlord).
The minos are indeed, as I said, pretty good value for money. Sure, not as ogres, but still cheaper than they where. You cannot argue around that.
What annoys me are the Bestigors, but since I will not  be able to start a beast army with GW minis as far as I can see it is a moot point.

But with celts. Then I would happily buy the minotaurs just cause they are hillarious. They clearly are based on Belgian blue, but they are hillarious.
Come to think of it, with all them "Razorboars" running around, theming an army around Asterix & Obelix would be pretty nifty.  :icon_mrgreen:

And you could still have Timon & Pumba joining the rumble for good measure.  :icon_razz:

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: jullevi on January 09, 2010, 10:29:44 PM
None of those defined the beastmen, they were parts of the WoC book.  Besides, most beast players used Minotaurs, not those models.


Actually, they were introduced into 6th edition via book titled "Beasts of Chaos". Granted, they weren't "Beasts" units per se, but still a important feature in an army known as Beasts of Chaos. They were dropped (well, moved into Warriors of Chaos book) and replaced by Pumbagors and silly large monsters without models. Personally I am not affected by the loss that much because I collect all Chaos armies, but it must annoy those who played Beasts of Chaos without mortals or daemons. Trolls and Ogres may not have been very popular choices, but Dragon Ogres were a common sight.

Personally, I don't mind splitting of herds and return of rank and file. I always thought huge units of skirmishers was an unsuitable concept for Warhammer as a whole and mixed unit caused too many rules problems. As far as I can see, treatment of Gors and Ungors is one of the few changes that please me in the new book. Although I am not too sure about the point costs that seem too high or Ambush that appears to be totally useless now.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 09, 2010, 10:47:05 PM
On the contrary, this release is the most silent yet.

Even the internet buzz was slow, especially since those who had seen the models long before release, weren't too impressed.
Shadowlord is right. The internet buzz about the new releases seems to be squashed a bit by GW of late. When I think about last years IG release, there were thousands of rumors and the book was basically on the net weeks before the release. With the Skaven, there was a 100+ pages rumor thread on Warseer that just disappeared one day. When I inquired about it, I was told there had been trouble. It got ever quieter from then on. While on one side that makes me a bit sad, on the other side it is also nice to be able to buy a new army book and not already know it from cover to cover.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Death on January 10, 2010, 08:14:46 AM
i henceforth cristen beastman elite infantry the costigors.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 10, 2010, 08:41:22 AM
Alright, so we got Goldswords and Costigors. What was the name on the new Stormvermins again?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 10, 2010, 09:31:59 AM
Reasonablepricevermin ?  :-P
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 10, 2010, 09:38:25 AM
Shit?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 10, 2010, 12:18:44 PM
LOL, nicely done Merrick.

Jullevi:  I redundancy of all those US3 models was obvious even back then.  THe razorgors are better than the dragon ogres, so I am not too bothered by the loss.  Add the fact that many are simply going to use dragon ogres for them and it gets even easier.  I won't, I like the ionsanity that are the pumbas.

And I disagree with Hastings and Harry on the Minotaurs and doombull.  I like both models sets.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 10, 2010, 12:20:59 PM
I won't, I like the insanity that are the pumbas.
To clarify... you like the model or the concept?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 10, 2010, 12:25:09 PM
The model.  Hilariously bad.  So bad its good level!

Rulewise they are pretty simple: M7 S5 T5 W3 A4 +1S on the charge, cause fear.  Nothing too complicated there.  But they hit really hard! 14" charge and 12 S6 attacks from a 170 point unit with the Toughness to stick around for a little while.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 10, 2010, 12:26:27 PM
And I disagree with Hastings and Harry on the Minotaurs and doombull.  I like both models sets.

They have been growing on those two, so I suspect it had to do with the Skaven release, personal preferences and so on.

I am with you on this one, this army for once, or again, feel real beasty and not just another - dark gods galore.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 10, 2010, 12:40:18 PM
The model.  Hilariously bad.  So bad its good level!
Well, this ought to sort out that "afraid of change" thread in the BT: At least one person on the web likes them.
 :happy:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 10, 2010, 12:41:10 PM
Come on, have you really looked at them?  That eye!  The hilarity!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 10, 2010, 12:43:24 PM
Yes... that eye. It is hilarious actually. Looks a bit like they passed a spliff around in the bushes prior to the battle to calm their nerves.
"oooh Pumba... the COLORS!"
  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 10, 2010, 01:00:58 PM
I am with you on this one, this army for once, or again, feel real beasty and not just another - dark gods galore.

Yup. That's why I'm not particularly bothered about the loss of some of the creatures. It's a bit like the transition empire made from 5th to 6th.

Of course, the price for this is that we will see Furry Fanatics with beastmen armies at GW tournaments.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 10, 2010, 03:05:45 PM
That's it!

I can't take it anymore! Those ungors are killing me.

Beastmen, instead of Empire, here I come!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 10, 2010, 03:10:20 PM
Traitor!  :ph34r:
Do you happen to have some Empire stuff lying around, by the way? :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 10, 2010, 03:12:27 PM
I have only about two dozen cloaks that I was gonna send to Dihy... or whatever his name was.

Want those?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 10, 2010, 03:16:05 PM
do you have pics of the archer ungors?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 10, 2010, 03:17:11 PM
What kind of cloaks are those, Shadowlord?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 10, 2010, 03:17:51 PM
On the GW site, just click core, then the Ungor - and there is a little pic below that you can enhance.

Cloaks with heads on the back (fur).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 10, 2010, 03:19:44 PM
Ahh!!!
Those cloaks would be smashing, Shadowlord! Would fit my emerging Ulric horde perfectly!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 10, 2010, 03:21:37 PM
Ah, I was hping you were going to do the work for me.

They are pretty hunched. I wonder why they like hunched models atm (state troops, rats, now beasts)

(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m800017a_99120216004_BeastmenMinotaurHerd1_873x627.jpg)

makes the minos look half decent.
Looking forward to seeing Philly paint some up
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 10, 2010, 03:25:10 PM
All the models look better on the GW site than on that promo pic. Bestigors in particular look way less unipose. And now I realise what the pumba-painter tried to do with that eye (though it didn't work).

Some good things there. Not as good as the Skaven release, but still.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 10, 2010, 03:27:51 PM
The minos look better on the pic, less moffo.
Still, I can´t help but think of Belgian blue when I see those musclemasses.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mogsam on January 10, 2010, 05:29:55 PM
If they had more fur they wouldn't look so balls. The armoured head is alright as well.

Mogsam
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: patsy02 on January 10, 2010, 06:48:57 PM
Pumbagor and minotaurs are shit. Everything else is quite good. Seeing bad guy archers is... refreshing.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 10, 2010, 06:57:59 PM
If you compare the new doombull with the old one you just have to rejoice. (if you play pesky lice ridden beastmen).

I also like the ungor, I still think it is a pity that they probably don´t have the raider rule any more.

Core chariots....well I guess like vampires you still need three infantry core choices.

I don´t like the minotaurs better than the old ones but they look more like Golems than furious rage infantry.

"Oh no general we can´t attack that building we would get stuck in the door!"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 10, 2010, 07:04:28 PM
From what I've seen, green stuff fur is quite easy to do.

Shouldn't be hard to make them look alright. Maybe even look good.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 10, 2010, 07:20:54 PM
If you compare the new doombull with the old one you just have to rejoice.
Indeed. The old Mad Cow was rather ugly.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 10, 2010, 08:06:09 PM
I really like the archer ungors.
I'll probably buy a box.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 10, 2010, 08:26:08 PM
I really like the archer ungors.
I'll probably buy a box.

Told you so...  :happy:

The pot bellied ones and those with the sailor beard looks awesome.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 10, 2010, 08:31:53 PM
Perhaps I will get some. Sometime. When my rats are presentable.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 10, 2010, 08:37:42 PM
Tempted to use those Ungor with bows as Satyr in Wargods.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: patsy02 on January 10, 2010, 08:55:13 PM
What's keeping you from it? they look pretty good. I might buy some and convert them into hobgoblins.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 10, 2010, 09:13:56 PM
Satyr have a chance not to even turn up for a battle, making them sometimes... a hinderance :D

It is cool as I'd only need 10 of them, so one box I assume. Might do it!

Anyway, very nice models they are!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 10, 2010, 09:40:25 PM
The more I think of it, the more I like the idea of fielding Warlord celts or rather Britons as Beastmens.

Ungor would be a good representation of the standard spear and shield armed celt. A unit of Gor could represent some fanatics or better armed nobles on foot.
And core chariots. Chariots...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 11, 2010, 02:11:01 AM
Chariots...

Mmmmm...

You have no idea how happy I am that my main two desires, chariots remaining core and Minotaur getting a boost, both happened!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 11, 2010, 07:20:44 AM
You have no idea how happy I am that my main two desires, chariots remaining core and Minotaur getting a boost, both happened!

I wish my world was as small as yours if those are your main desires... 

So what does the wife say about that? That she is feeling a little left out?

 :icon_wink:

A mere few hours of sleep, and first day at work in 11 days, has dwindled my initial lust for the beasties.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 11, 2010, 08:46:08 AM
A good nights sleep always helps to make you reconsider things.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 11, 2010, 09:22:42 AM
A good nights sleep always helps to make you reconsider things.

:icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 11, 2010, 09:48:10 AM

That largely depends on who you wake up next to...

But I digress.

Has anybody here played the new beasts yet ?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 11, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
The book comes out on February 5th or so.

Those were my two Warhammer desires :D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 11, 2010, 12:50:36 PM
The book comes out on February 5th or so.

Those were my two Warhammer desires :D

Phil

Won´t you miss your 5" skirmisher herds?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 11, 2010, 12:54:47 PM
A little.  We still get skirmishing core troops.  The ungor herds will be better than they were, though more expensive.  It was sort of inevitable.  THe mixed herds created alot of issues for enemy armies with the complicated rules and such.  I sort of figured we were in for a significant change.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 11, 2010, 01:03:32 PM
Well true but they overloaded the Skaven with special rules why not the Beasties.

Well I wait until the army book gets out and if they really have all those strange monsters roaming around until I make my final judgement.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 11, 2010, 01:05:18 PM
The book comes out on February 5th or so.

I know. Just sometimes people get in store previews
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 11, 2010, 01:09:47 PM
True, but I don't know if they have had them long enough for the 6 BEastman players currently living to have played with them yet.

:D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 11, 2010, 01:13:58 PM
Well I wait until the army book gets out and if they really have all those strange monsters roaming around until I make my final judgement.

Which, like with that famous beer, will be worth waiting for.  :icon_wink:

To me, the beastmen will finally have a good balance with some hard hitting critters, infantery that may be better in 8th (I suspect more rank bonus, more bonus in general for more infantery like size), and some nice back to basic fluff.

I actually am beginning to like this release more than Skaven (well probably not model wise...).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 11, 2010, 03:30:04 PM
More bonuses for large infantry units possible? Like it might be in WAB 2nd ed? Interesting... My 29 men strong Ulrician halberdier regiments listens intensively!  :icon_razz:

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 11, 2010, 03:54:41 PM
Dude, he's just speculating.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 11, 2010, 03:58:48 PM
He knows which buttons to push on Mathi.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: patsy02 on January 11, 2010, 05:06:41 PM
Quote
He knows which buttons to push on Mathi.
:mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 11, 2010, 08:56:25 PM
I quite like the new Ungor and the new Gor, but not more than my metals and previous edition plastics, so I won't be changing them out.

The new Minotaurs are hideous but they are well designed as I believe they will catch the eye of 12 year old boys (the target market) but for me they are hideous, far too much of a departure toward a Rackham style, they look like Rackham models to me.
They are nothing short of ghastly.

The new Doombull is a bit of a let down but the previous edition metal Doombull was a glorious model so I guess pretty much anything was going to be a step backwards.

Gorthor remains a classic and a must have for any Beast army.

The new hounds are passe.

I love Minotaurs but I'll be looking to other manufacturers to fill out the ranks in my Minotaur army.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 11, 2010, 09:24:48 PM
I just showed my wife the new minis on the site yesterday and she was actually pretty impressed.

She did say oh dear when I scrolled down to the razorgor.  :-P

But the more I look, the more I can get on with the new minis. I don't know if I'll get the new minotaurs or not yet, but everything else looks good. The new herd models are all so similar to the old ones that it's nice. I think the synthesis of the two will be very smooth if I want to bulk out my units.

The bestigors look decent too. I'll probably have to get some of those now sometime.

The new centigor hero is among my favourites. Great stuff. He will definitely be joining my ranks.
 :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 12, 2010, 12:13:07 AM


I love Minotaurs but I'll be looking to other manufacturers to fill out the ranks in my Minotaur army.
Are there any?

Because that was the reason for this entire thread.

BTW are Gors still on 25m bases?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 12, 2010, 03:05:44 AM
Gors are on 25mm bases.  And yes there are piles of minotaur models from other companies.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 12, 2010, 10:55:27 AM
Never really seen many I like though, they always make the heads gigantic for some reason.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 12, 2010, 11:02:58 AM
That's what you get for trying to put a bull's head on a human!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 12, 2010, 11:04:22 AM
Moo.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 12, 2010, 11:22:34 AM
That's what you get for trying to put a bull's head on a human!
the length of the GWs heads one are the worst part of the model for me.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 12, 2010, 11:49:17 AM
Cows heads are much larger in proportion to their bodies than most humans.  As rufus said, the giant head tends to be an artifact of that I think.  There are some decent minotaur models from other companies though.  I just think the GW ones are as good and won't get funny looks at any tournament (outside of their appearance).

Here is what I have settled on buying for this edition:

3 boxes of ungor
1 Shaman Special Character model
1 box of Minotaur (to start - 2 more in May)
4 Razorgor (3 for a unit, 1 for a chariot).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 12, 2010, 11:57:22 AM
I haven't seen many good pictures of minotaurs either. They are a bit of a daft concept.


Did the Mordheim Thing in the Woods not show up in the beastmen range after all? It's way better than that demented spikey boar thing.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 12, 2010, 12:13:54 PM
I think it is a case of using it as a razorgor.

There are many special characters, few of which have really been examined so far.  I think one of those might be.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 12, 2010, 12:16:54 PM
Special characters: just say no.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 12, 2010, 12:21:27 PM
Agreed.  Unfortunately, they linked some of the special rules which used to be standard to special characters.  I HATE it when they do that stuff.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 12, 2010, 12:53:02 PM
I think it is time to reconsider the way we think about SCs, but we have talked about this before. The role of SCs in the game is changing. If they're just crazy powerful with a heap of special equipment, I don't need or want them. If they enable me to use new tactics however, I do not mind them at all.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 12, 2010, 12:54:23 PM
The issue is when they're both of the things you just said, it seems to be.

It also seems that the hangover of requiring opponents permission is still very at large, regardless of actual rules.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mogsam on January 12, 2010, 12:57:42 PM
I still hate special characters. Some have nice background (Tretch Craventail) but I'd never use them. Defeats the point of making "your" army.

Mogsam
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 12, 2010, 12:58:03 PM
Maybe, but when you need to start discussing with your opponent which SC are appropriate, things get ugly.  It is easier to just say no to SC and use generic lords and heroes.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 12, 2010, 01:02:16 PM
I would personally prefer it if they had "Normal" lords capable of these force changes aswell as special characters with their additional rules.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 12, 2010, 01:02:24 PM
Yes, in your opnion.
But this is what it really boils down to, isn't it? Opinion.
The rules allow for them. Many (I also include 40K in this post) are not overpowered. It is possible to use the rules without the background/with your own.
MrDwhitey said something quite true: there is still a disproportionate stigma attached to SCs. No one is forcing anyone to use them, but doing so shouldn't be frowned upon automatically, as it so often is. I think it is quite possible to have fun and balanced lists including them. There are other things in Warhammer to be concerned about.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 12, 2010, 02:21:26 PM
I still hate special characters. Some have nice background (Tretch Craventail) but I'd never use them. Defeats the point of making "your" army.

That's what I think.


The 6th Edition Empire book was awesome for this - only two special characters, both required permission, both were completely rubbish. That's how it should be done!

In a few years, the rules will be back to that again. It's inevitable.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 12, 2010, 02:25:33 PM
I certainly wouldn't mind. Being able to customize a Lord or HQ model (in 40K) by buying special abilities from a table makes more sense (and opens more tactical possibilities) to me as well. But I am not really expecting this to become a reality.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 12, 2010, 02:31:23 PM
If they enable me to use new tactics however, I do not mind them at all.
Like that SM one that lets everyone sprint?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 12, 2010, 02:50:51 PM
Like that SM one that lets everyone sprint?

Thorek?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 12, 2010, 02:52:05 PM
Shrike?  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 12, 2010, 02:53:46 PM
Like that SM one that lets everyone sprint?
For example. Or the IG one that can give one platoon outflank. Those can enable you to play themed armies, but it would indeed be nice to be able to just customize from a list.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 12, 2010, 02:57:27 PM
Like that SM one that lets everyone sprint?
For example. Or the IG one that can give one platoon outflank. Those can enable you to play themed armies, but it would indeed be nice to be able to just customize from a list.

My personal favourite is TACTICAL GENIUS.

(http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/6/22/39295_sm-Creed,%20Tactical%20Genius.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 12, 2010, 02:59:01 PM
That looks pretty clever to me.


p.s. special characters are like pre-made characters in Baldur's Gate or whatever. Lame.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 12, 2010, 03:08:43 PM
Like that SM one that lets everyone sprint?
For example. Or the IG one that can give one platoon outflank. Those can enable you to play themed armies, but it would indeed be nice to be able to just customize from a list.
my point was that EVERYONE uses Shrike.
He is lame lame lame.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Uryens de Crux on January 12, 2010, 03:11:09 PM
So, what happens if both Empire players in a battle want to use KF? (et al)?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 12, 2010, 03:24:15 PM
my point was that EVERYONE uses Shrike.
He is lame lame lame.
Yes, but to my knowledge, he isn't so well-loved for his sprinting ability, but because he's a major-league asskicker. So that's not really a good example.
Al'Rahem is. He can fight a bit, but no IG player in his right mind would take him for that. His special ability is good, and by that he opens up new possibilities or in the case of for Skweel Gnawtooth, makes mediocre units good.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 03:35:25 PM
Quote
my point was that EVERYONE uses Shrike.

Like most people use the war altar....generic also trumps if it has the best special rules.

Yet you very seldon see Luthor Huss, I wouldn´t mind any empire army using him.

Also the Warriors of Chaos, viking captain that lets a unit of marauders appear from any table quarter. I have only seen him in fun games so he isn´t lame.

Outlawing special characters no matter what their special rules are is pretty stupid in my book.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 03:38:38 PM
It is Warhammer, some people in my gaming group like that there are epic fights where Karl Franz clashes with Archaon. I don´t mind there is generic stuff that is as overpowered and unbalanced as the SC so why outlaw the one and leave the other alone.

If you dislike the idea that Teclis is running around on every second HE battlefield just rename him to Ticlis and be done with it. He has a point value that isn´t balanced against a generic Lvl 4 HE mage but if you compare the Hellpit Abomination with an ork giant shouldn´t the ork player just throw himself to the floor rip his shirt apart and cry like a little sissy screaming in fear and anger?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 12, 2010, 03:39:53 PM
No, because someone who plays Orcs is more manly than you.

If you play orcs life is a lie.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 03:42:07 PM
I have seen Orcs smash demons and vampires and I have seen orc players that are childish, all complaining idiots. So the army doesn´t make you great itself you need some Waaaaagh in your blood.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 12, 2010, 03:42:21 PM
Outlawing special characters no matter what their special rules are is pretty stupid in my book.

Well, your book is rubbish.


It's nothing to do with how powerful they are. They are just lame.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 12, 2010, 03:43:48 PM
I have seen Orcs smash demons and vampires and I have seen orc players that are childish, all complaining idiots. So the army doesn´t make you great itself you need some Waaaaagh in your blood.

Those weren't orc players.

They were degenerate goblinoids.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 03:45:15 PM
Outlawing special characters no matter what their special rules are is pretty stupid in my book.

Well, your book is rubbish.


It's nothing to do with how powerful they are. They are just lame.

But than a steam tank is lame, grail knights are lame, blood knights are also lame....most of the rare choices are lame as there are only a handful of individuals in the whole old world that fit to their description.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 03:45:57 PM
I have seen Orcs smash demons and vampires and I have seen orc players that are childish, all complaining idiots. So the army doesn´t make you great itself you need some Waaaaagh in your blood.

Those weren't orc players.

They were degenerate goblinoids.

And how would you seperate the orc players?

Black orc

savage orc

usual john do orc

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 12, 2010, 03:49:37 PM
Something like that.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 12, 2010, 03:49:56 PM
But than a steam tank is lame, grail knights are lame, blood knights are also lame....most of the rare choices are lame as there are only a handful of individuals in the whole old world that fit to their description.

No, it's just the special characters (though as it happens blood knights are lame, but for another reason).

They are lame because they are pre-made characters.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 12, 2010, 03:52:02 PM
Now you are running off into a strange direction rufus. This is a wargame, not a RPG. You can treat it as such, but that isn't really a given.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 03:52:48 PM
Well the average characters are also quite fix if you compare the most army lists, there are the magic items that are good and there are the junk ones of course you could take the dawn armour instead of the armour of meteoric iron for your foot bsb but well the other one is just better.



I would like a system where you could buy a large variety of mundane kit, magical kit and special rules but to balance something like that would be impossible.

Warhammer isn´t great at balancing and also at customization of your single models still a great game (otherwise we wouldn´t play it) BUT special characters don´t change the whole game.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 12, 2010, 03:54:04 PM
Quote
Now you are running off into a strange direction

Actually, I'm just stating my opinion.


Which, as it happens, is also a fact. How convenient!


Quote
special characters don´t change the whole game.

I know. I just don't like them! That's all.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 03:55:32 PM
I dislike models or rules that are crap, not even under special circumstances compared to other choices. Magical items, characters, units, dice, underwear etc.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 12, 2010, 03:55:37 PM
I know. I just don't like them! That's all.
Well, that is your right I guess. Until the revolution comes!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 12, 2010, 04:52:11 PM
Can´t you just skip commenting then, Rufus? It´s not like we don´t know your reactionary view on special character. Come back when you changed your mind maybe... Or just put it in your sig or something.  :dry:

Honestly Rufus, facts are that today many alternatives that where once customisable via items or in some other ways you where able to get them, now are tied up to special Characters.
You say people whose style of army now need a special character are lame because they don´t do as you command and play the same Rufus vanilla list?

For Imperial guard, this is quite profound. If you really want to make a nifty light infantry army that don´t just look the part but can act the part, you will need to take Al-Rahem as himself or rename him.

And for that matter, GW, including Jervis Johnson in what must have been a preparatory article for the change in WD wrote and clearly said that you sdhould NOT see the special characters as only a fixed character. They are archetypes!

It is not just the Ultramarines that got a badass sniper Scout sergeant, nor is Al-Rahem the only dashing light infantry commander in the Imperial guard!
GW decided to do this since the old systems with traits and skil&Drills where missused.
It was easier to balance things if some special stuff was tied to special characters and then encourage the gamers to use the SC less rigidly and treat them like archetypical heroes.

Theo nly way to get Catachan devils are to field gunnery sergeant harken andwhy should players in your vincity be ridiculed for taking Harken to field the most badass Cartachans there are?
Or if I want to field Try Again Bragg, Harken is possibly the best bet. Still he shotys better tyhan Bragg.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 12, 2010, 04:54:38 PM
I don't think you randomly took my comments personally enough this time. Try again later!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 12, 2010, 05:30:31 PM
I don't think you randomly took my comments personally enough this time. Try again later!

Knowing you, that will be much sooner than you think...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 05:37:28 PM
40k is different than Warhammer fantasy though, the special characters in 40k are usually as easy to kill as their unspecial counterparts PLUS you have no magic items to boost your unspecial counterparts (only equipment).

Still I like to use special characters once in a while.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 12, 2010, 05:38:41 PM
SC are ace in bigger games and makes for a much more interesting experience.

Just like sex, which you know, is alien to most here...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 05:39:40 PM
se.....what?


Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 12, 2010, 05:43:42 PM
Let me clarify... When a man meets a woman, or a boy meets a girl...

Yeah I know the sex part was childish, but SC truly are working better with larger scenarios as their impact will be less than in smaller games. Through the dozen or more Legendary Battles we have played special characters have always been present and in a good way too.

Even Thorek didn't have much game changing rules in 10,000 vs 10,000 pts.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 05:45:10 PM
Also if both sides use them everything is fine.

I have yet to play a Legendary battle, do you usually play in teams against each other or one on one the whole day?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 12, 2010, 05:47:06 PM
I have yet to play a Legendary battle, do you usually play in teams against each other or one on one the whole day?

A whole day works best, with even breaks, and the wives playing with our credit cards somewhere they can't reach us.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 05:50:34 PM
10 000 points hmmmmm when do you quite empire and pick up beastmen, I would even pay for some of your fantastic minis.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 12, 2010, 05:59:49 PM
I played against Volkmar the other day and it really wasn't as bad an experience as all that.

I still prefer not using them unless specifically mutually agreeing, but it was a fun game and he made for an interesting story concept.

I know I should just read the rules rumours, but is ambush totally gone now too?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 06:01:53 PM
nope but you need a unit as large as the ambush unit on the table to ambush (at least that is what the rumour says).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 12, 2010, 06:05:24 PM
Let me clarify... When a man meets a woman, or a boy meets a girl...

Yeah I know the sex part was childish, but SC truly are working better with larger scenarios as their impact will be less than in smaller games. Through the dozen or more Legendary Battles we have played special characters have always been present and in a good way too.

Even Thorek didn't have much game changing rules in 10,000 vs 10,000 pts.

Are you saying we should have sex with fat chicks?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 12, 2010, 06:12:14 PM
10 000 points hmmmmm when do you quite empire and pick up beastmen, I would even pay for some of your fantastic minis.

 :icon_lol: You're half a year too late.

I play Ogres these days and looks to start with either Beastmen or Skaven.

But first some 40K Orks that need paint.

@ Finlay, fat men!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 06:15:50 PM
40k....hmmm I don´t even get my warhammer stuff glued and painted...I need some slaves hopefully the economy crisis will strike home a little harder and leave some of the warhammer nerds without any job....wait we don´t need a crisis for that.

Empire

High Elves

Dwarfs

maybe

Lizardman for the woman
Vampires for me

40K I have IG lying around

beast would only be an option with naked humans as models Germans or Celts

 
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadoweyed on January 12, 2010, 06:52:23 PM
Not to derail this (if that is possible  :engel:), but is anyone else a little upset that it seems the Dragon Ogres were removed from the list? I am assuming this because the took them off the Beasts section of the website.

I will be rather disappointed if the raider style has been done away with, because that is what made Beasts rather unique I think. And why I started to get into them.

-Shadoweyed
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 06:54:42 PM
Perhaps the Dragon Ogres get some new minis and they brilliantly hid them from the eye of the public.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Molleson on January 12, 2010, 07:00:16 PM
I doubt they would ever get rid of the dragon ogres. Aren't they pretty popular? The only problem is that the minis aren't so hopefully Fandir is right and they pulled them due to new minis they plan on revealing soon.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2010, 07:01:30 PM
Perhaps next summer,

the people I know that play Chaos of all kind dislike the old dragon ogres passionately if they would make a load of small shaggoths of them I think everyone will be happy.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 12, 2010, 07:07:30 PM
Not to derail this (if that is possible  :engel:), but is anyone else a little upset that it seems the Dragon Ogres were removed from the list? I am assuming this because the took them off the Beasts section of the website.

I will be rather disappointed if the raider style has been done away with, because that is what made Beasts rather unique I think. And why I started to get into them.

-Shadoweyed

I think they replaced them with a pretty wide selection of other units.

Remember we can still ambush.
Mixed herds are gone (good) but skirmishing too (bad) which is a bit weird. Ambushing units just "feel" like they should skirmish to me.

But we still do get skirmishing Ungor, I believe.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 12, 2010, 07:34:59 PM
I'm sad at the loss of the dragon ogres and shaggoth.

They don't seem any less beastmeny than harpies.

The dragon ogre models were kinda horrible but like Fandir said, if they had made up something approximating the quality of shaggoths in small versions, I'm pretty sure they'd have been a must-have.

Maybe they'll redo the models in a second wave of WoC releases... *shrug*
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 13, 2010, 07:14:49 AM
I'm sad at the loss of the dragon ogres and shaggoth.

Not me, they have always seen a bit smarter than the drool that the beastmen are.

Also, they are probably better off with WoC where they can actually understand what their fellow men/side arms say, instead of the regular beastmen Chewbacka howls.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 13, 2010, 10:53:27 AM
No more dragon ogres? That's a shame.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 13, 2010, 11:43:37 AM
They looked like Moffos anyway. No rightminded Chewbacca would put up with them for long.  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Walt von Ark on January 13, 2010, 12:53:23 PM
i for one am glad i sold all my Warriors related chaos when the split the army,
and kept my (un)gors, chariots and centigors.

Just two sets of those freaky minotaurs, a doombull, a few razorgors (maybe the weirdest creature in the old world) and a box of archer ungors and I'm done.

Can't wait to try them out.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: DariusZero on January 13, 2010, 02:11:37 PM
(http://www.ludikbazar.com/product_thumb/w/285/h/399/img/DRCR02-GD.jpg)

(http://www.arena-deathmatch.com/images/latestreleases.jpg)

for those, who don't fancy new GW minotaurs enough, here is some alternative, Prices:

9€ for rackham mino and
21.95€   for AOW.
I'm a proud and happy owner of the rackham mino, ans he is as big as metal minos from GW and very cute( if You can say that for such a nasty "little beasty".) :mrgreen:



Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 13, 2010, 02:15:20 PM
Thanks for the pictures!

Don't like the Rackham one, though their NMM is always great.

The AoW ones are excellent, but expensive.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 13, 2010, 02:40:42 PM
The AoW ones are excellent, but expensive.

Stop right there mister!

Only GW makes expensive models, and you can only whine about GW prices.

Now go back and edit that post or I will flog a dead horse again!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 13, 2010, 02:44:34 PM
I'm very sorry.

The AoW ones may be a tad pricey, but they look so great that they are well worth it. Unlike that GW crap, which is rubbish and overpriced.

Better?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 13, 2010, 02:52:46 PM
The dead horse is safe...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 13, 2010, 02:55:30 PM
The dead horse is overpriced, too!!



Sorry, got carried away.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 13, 2010, 03:23:21 PM
Shadowlord: rider of selective dead horses since whenever.


Those AoW ones are quite nice, except that they look like they might be tripping over. Someone catch them!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 13, 2010, 03:24:49 PM
He probably has an entire chariot racing team of dead horses.

Hm... "Ben Hur" could have been much funnier this way...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 13, 2010, 03:28:19 PM
That Rackham one is vomit tastic.

I was looking through ebay for Ogres, and some of the non GW ones are really laughably bad.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 13, 2010, 03:45:57 PM
The AoW ones came out really well.

I'd love to have one of those guys for a doombull...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: patsy02 on January 13, 2010, 03:52:29 PM
But than a steam tank is lame, grail knights are lame, blood knights are also lame....most of the rare choices are lame as there are only a handful of individuals in the whole old world that fit to their description.

No, it's just the special characters (though as it happens blood knights are lame, but for another reason).

They are lame because they are pre-made characters.
Agreed. If you're using for special characters, why not go ahead and pay to have them and your army painted by commission. And while you're at it you might as well sponsor someone to take your army to tourneys and win them for you.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 13, 2010, 03:54:31 PM
But than a steam tank is lame, grail knights are lame, blood knights are also lame....most of the rare choices are lame as there are only a handful of individuals in the whole old world that fit to their description.

No, it's just the special characters (though as it happens blood knights are lame, but for another reason).

They are lame because they are pre-made characters.
Agreed. If you're using for special characters, why not go ahead and pay to have them and your army painted by commission. And while you're at it you might as well sponsor someone to take your army to tourneys and win them for you.

My God.. That's it... Think of all the time I'll save...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 13, 2010, 03:56:19 PM
Commision painting would be great if I just had the money.

Think of all the paint I save.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Raulmichile on January 13, 2010, 04:28:15 PM

And the tournies I otherwise woludn't win!   :biggriin:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 13, 2010, 06:14:46 PM
(http://www.ludikbazar.com/product_thumb/w/285/h/399/img/DRCR02-GD.jpg)

(http://www.arena-deathmatch.com/images/latestreleases.jpg)

for those, who don't fancy new GW minotaurs enough, here is some alternative, Prices:

9€ for rackham mino and
21.95€   for AOW.
I'm a proud and happy owner of the rackham mino, ans he is as big as metal minos from GW and very cute( if You can say that for such a nasty "little beasty".) :mrgreen:

The Rackham model is very nice but I did feel compelled to remodel the horns and weapon into something more modest. Then it became a much better looking entity.

The Avatars of war Minotaurs are excellent and although they are pricey I'll be getting some of those for my Minotaur army.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 13, 2010, 06:17:30 PM
How are the AoW ones pricey?
They are much cheaper than the GW Doombull.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 13, 2010, 06:18:49 PM
22,00 € for a mini is a lot of money even if GW is even more expensive.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 13, 2010, 06:44:01 PM
How are the AoW ones pricey?
They are much cheaper than the GW Doombull.
They are still pricey, it's just the new Doombull is exceptionally pricey, especially when it's not half the quality of sculpt as the previous metal model.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 13, 2010, 06:54:10 PM
22,00 € for a mini is a lot of money even if GW is even more expensive.

Jesus Christ, is there no satisfying some people?

AoW: "Here's a really nice Minotaur Lord, much better sculpted than GW. 20 quid or so, so cheaper too. OH, you want it for cheaper, fine, you can have it for a fucking tenner, don't worry about a smalltime minatures company trying to live in GW's shadow."
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 13, 2010, 06:58:37 PM
They are excellent, but don't spell "Lord" for me. I'd rather use them as rank and file. For this purpose, they are expensive.

For a Lord, it's okay.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 13, 2010, 07:24:28 PM
They are still pricey, it's just the new Doombull is exceptionally pricey, especially when it's not half the quality of sculpt as the previous metal model.

You, and me it seems, must be the only ones who liked that one.

Jesus Christ, is there no satisfying some people?

That you need to ask shows how weak your internet-fu really is.  :closed-eyes:

Shadowlord: rider of selective dead horses since whenever.

Since you became funny.

No wait...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 13, 2010, 07:56:14 PM
You, and me it seems, must be the only ones who liked that one.

Thats because the kids are easily wowed by big plastic mediocrity.
The older metal sculpt is a piece of art, full of movement and brimming with imminent violence.
The new one is not a bad or shabby model, it's just not special, it is static in comparison and lacks movement, but it's ok.
I am not moved by ok, not for a large model anyway.
Large models are supposed to be a bit special, a bit imposing in more than just size.
Mediocrity will not part me from my hard earned folding.
I would rather look elsewhere for other options and rework an extra previous edition into a different pose with a different weapon.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 13, 2010, 07:59:24 PM
Thats because the kids are easily wowed by big plastic mediocrity.

No, it is not just kids since I do not hang around these legally, but older people who plain out think it sucks.

The web brims with similar comments regarding the old one.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 13, 2010, 08:19:34 PM
Really?
First I've heard of it.
I belong to the biggest wargaming club in the UK, the South London Warlords, they rarely if ever have less than 50 club members playing every Monday night (they put on the massive Salute show every year in London) it is a club dominated by older (grognards  :icon_mrgreen:) chaps (although I'm not sure if any are as venerable as Midaski  :-P)  and among the fantasy players, not one of them has much time for the new plastic Doombull model but they all love the old metal one.
All the older fantasy players I know are keen on the older model.
I can't blame GW for bringing out a new version though because that metal Doombull has been around for a loooong time now and they do need to update their armies over time.
It was always going to be a hard act to follow.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 13, 2010, 08:58:32 PM
I don't know how old you have to be to be older, but I never took to that old doombull. For me, the pose was awkward, the head is too big for the body as are the hands.

I'm not going to say that the new one is perfect, but I really like the balance of it, probably helps that it is not from that cartoony era that the other one is from. The new one looks a bit more menacing and less like a member of Kiss.

Oh and you are not the only two, I'm pretty sure that Philly is a fan.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: DariusZero on January 13, 2010, 09:14:33 PM
Really?
First I've heard of it.
I belong to the biggest wargaming club in the UK, the South London Warlords, they rarely if ever have less than 50 club members playing every Monday night (they put on the massive Salute show every year in London) it is a club dominated by older (grognards  :icon_mrgreen:) chaps (although I'm not sure if any are as venerable as Midaski  :-P)  and among the fantasy players, not one of them has much time for the new plastic Doombull model but they all love the old metal one.
All the older fantasy players I know are keen on the older model.
I can't blame GW for bringing out a new version though because that metal Doombull has been around for a loooong time now and they do need to update their armies over time.
It was always going to be a hard act to follow.

Actually the new Doombull is metal too."..This large, 12-part metal model is supplied.."

But I also like the old metal minos, I have all the models incl. Doombull and they're great. The same goes for the new Doombull, sure it's static ( which is better for transport, :icon_smile:), but it also radiates some personality, could be it's cunning tactical mind at work?
Anyway it's great sculpting, full of fine details, and I will buy it as soon as get over the rage of it's high price. not any time soon anyhow.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 13, 2010, 09:36:51 PM
I love the old Doombull.  Since I will be equiping my Doombull with additional hand weapons, thats the one I will be using.  The gorbull will use a great weapon though.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on January 14, 2010, 03:36:51 AM
Hated the old Doom bull. Hate the new minotaurs. Hopefully better paintjobs will make me reconsider.

List wise, I am interested to see how I can turn it into an Albion army.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Sig on January 14, 2010, 10:37:24 AM
I liked the old Doombull, I just like the new one more.

Oh and Warlord, my mate convinced me to pull out the old Empire models (mostly unpainted though) so after nearly 4 years, I'm back in the game should you be up for one...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 14, 2010, 10:45:22 AM
Really?
First I've heard of it.

Same here. Funny, I always thought it was nice.

I would agree with Sig that the new one looks better, though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 14, 2010, 12:00:13 PM
Hate the old one, like the new one.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on January 14, 2010, 12:33:58 PM
I don't mind the new one. Looks better than the plastics from what I can see.

And sig - that sounds good actually. I have been playing the odd game over christmas, but would love to get in a game with you one day. Me and Nikki are looking at getting a place soon, which will probably be closer to the city than I am currently, which would make it more convenient for either of us to move an army to a suitable battlefield.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 14, 2010, 12:49:50 PM
I am glad we have different opinions on the minotaur because I have really grown to like them.  I am looking forward to painting some up and seeing how thye look within my army.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: patsy02 on January 15, 2010, 05:10:33 PM
The new doom bull is quite alright. A bit Warcraft-like, but leagues above the old one, and far better than the regular minotaurs.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 15, 2010, 09:57:33 PM
So PhillyT, you cheese mongerer (yes I am baiting...), what do you think will be the difference, ignoring the power level, between Ogre Kingdoms and Beastmen? I love playing the former but I simply can not get the beastmen out of my head after seeing those Ungor archers.

I know OK are weak, but I do not want to play a mirror army with different models even if they are stronger.

And yes, I have mostly been following the models and the new/re-old fluff.  :happy:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 15, 2010, 10:40:23 PM
I don't see them playing that similarly unless you really want to max the specials on minotaur and take 2 or 3 minotaur characters.

Beastmen are much more versitile.  Core chariots, multimple small infantry types (including the fantastic ungor skirmishers), multiple M7 and M8 models, and brutal US3 models is what sets the army apart.  Both do still suffer from the issue of how to deal with large flying terror causers, which is relaly the single greatest flaw with the Ogres.  Beastmen have the jabberwocky and some better items to deal with it.

Lets hope they fix the Ogres!  I have 5000 points ready to rock!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 15, 2010, 10:56:08 PM
I don't see them playing that similarly unless you really want to max the specials on minotaur and take 2 or 3 minotaur characters.

I actually would look at one unit of minos or maybe two with different weapons, depending on how the shield looks etc.

Maybe I will do GW a favor by clicking buy... :happy:

Thanks.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 17, 2010, 10:50:39 PM
So um, we really have harpies coming over to the Beasts too? Or was that just still a rumour? I'm so confused now.

Anyways, I ask because I was in my LGS last night and the owner was showing me the new Gargoyles for 40k and frankly, I'm thinking there's going to be a huge number of uses for those things. They are gonna be the new Glade Rider horses. I'm thinking that with some minor head changes and obviously different arms or claws, they are a pretty cheap and easy conversion for beastly looking harpies.

I'm sure it won't be long before we start seeing the conversions beginning....
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on January 18, 2010, 12:35:51 AM
Anyways, I ask because I was in my LGS last night and the owner was showing me the new Gargoyles for 40k and frankly, I'm thinking there's going to be a huge number of uses for those things. They are gonna be the new Glade Rider horses. I'm thinking that with some minor head changes and obviously different arms or claws, they are a pretty cheap and easy conversion for beastly looking harpies.

I'm sure it won't be long before we start seeing the conversions beginning....

Agree. That many plastic wings in a box is going to get a lot of conversion love.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 18, 2010, 02:28:43 AM
I don't really see a role for the harpies as a special.  They are okay, but still a bit too much.  Not a bad unit, but I would rather have a razorgor chariot!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 18, 2010, 11:29:08 AM
plastic wings?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Crimsonsphinx on January 18, 2010, 12:24:04 PM
I like the new models, not sure about the cost of buying an army from scratch.

Whats the deal with 10 ungor in a box?  Seriously?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 18, 2010, 12:28:57 PM
Most things come 10 to a box.  Not too unusual given the number of bits and options.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: McKnight on January 18, 2010, 12:50:13 PM
Yes,.. like the 5 pistoliers and their 21 pistols  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 18, 2010, 01:03:27 PM
Plastic wings will see luvvvv... :biggriin:

Maybe I will somehow finally create my Warhawks!  :icon_razz:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 18, 2010, 01:16:54 PM
by my "plastic wings" comment, I meant I need more info about the plastic wings!

I still have all the old Beast Harpies (which I use for my DE cos the naked warty ones SUCK ASS) without wings.

edit* ah, new Tyranid Gargoyles.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 18, 2010, 01:19:11 PM
by my "plastic wings" comment, I meant I need more info about the plastic wings!

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1300160&prodId=prod350002a

Expensive! And they won't fit on those old harpies either.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 18, 2010, 01:38:50 PM
yeh, they are too expensive.

Pinning/Green stuff would make them fit though.
Might try and buy just wings on ebay
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: jullevi on January 18, 2010, 06:23:34 PM
If I were to convert harpies, I would use these wings (http://www.maxmini.eu/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=71) from MaxMini.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 18, 2010, 06:25:11 PM
I think ungors with those wings would look very impish.....I like.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 18, 2010, 10:57:55 PM
If I were to convert harpies, I would use these wings (http://www.maxmini.eu/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=71) from MaxMini.
Thank you, that is awesome! I will buy some.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 19, 2010, 06:37:36 AM
Whats the deal with 10 ungor in a box?  Seriously?

It's all about the money...  :evil:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 20, 2010, 12:47:22 PM
How is it different from empire state troops?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 20, 2010, 12:50:31 PM
Not that I care, but I think the ungors are more expensive than the empire troops.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 20, 2010, 12:55:52 PM
They are the same in the US, both are $25.  Maybe it is different in other countries, certainly wouldn't be the first time!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 20, 2010, 12:57:52 PM
Oh.

When I looked on the GW site last, they were Ł15 compared to Ł12 for empire troops. I may have been wrong, and I don't care enough to check.

Beastmen with bows are a good idea though!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 20, 2010, 12:59:24 PM
They still are Ł15 for 10.

I will be getting a boxed set for use as Satyr.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 20, 2010, 01:00:46 PM
So we in america pay more for Empire troops?  Son of a bitch!

Or am I not recalling correctly?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 20, 2010, 01:03:51 PM
Quote from: PhillyT
So we in america pay more for Empire troops?

Unless you are paying less for ungors.


I will be getting a boxed set for use as Satyr.

Are you going to add on the perpetually erect sexual organs then?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 20, 2010, 01:05:18 PM
No, because then people would comment.

That and I find that distasteful personally, I wouldn't mind if someone else had done so, but me, no.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 20, 2010, 01:10:21 PM
You know, I think Empire models are only $20.  So yeah, ungor are too high.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Taureus on January 20, 2010, 04:17:02 PM
Ungor Herd: 24.75 USD
Empire State Troops: 22.00 USD

Less than 3 dollars!!  ::heretic::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 20, 2010, 05:22:44 PM
Given your nickname, you'll be fielding Minotaurs only anyway, so why bother? :icon_wink:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 20, 2010, 05:29:43 PM
I didn't want to make a judgement call on the new Minotaurs until I had a chance to have a good long look at them and see what they were like in the cold hard plastic...

The jury is back in and I have decided that the new plastic Minotaurs are indeed...

Nothing short of absolutely hideous.
They are even worse than the old metal Chaos trolls (and they are pretty bloody awful)
Were they trying to put an angry cow head onto a LotR Mordor trolls body?
It's just awful and very disappointing, I'll be looking elsewhere for fresh Minotaur models.

The new plastic Doombull is disappointing and rather ordinary but not nearly as unpalatable as the awful sculpts for the new plastic Minotaurs.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 20, 2010, 05:30:46 PM
Hmmm I remember one thing the lead singer of "Wir sind Helden" a German band said once,

"If you don´t like our new stuff you are always welcome to pick up our old stuff!"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 20, 2010, 05:46:52 PM
... and he's right  :eusa_clap: and I've already got it, but for new Minotaurs I'll be looking for something that looks like a Minotaur and not a chaos spawned cow on steroids. :lol:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 20, 2010, 06:23:24 PM
Nothing short of absolutely hideous.

Thanks for the tip!

After seeing your favorite halflings and giant from another thread, the minos must rock hard.

I'll be getting a few boxes to paint, and a few just to raise GW's stock.

A win-win situation.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 20, 2010, 06:24:18 PM
You mean to raise your "stock"  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 20, 2010, 06:27:28 PM
You mean to raise your "stock"  :engel:

 :icon_lol:

German, a language where even Swedes can understand when someone is making jokes below the belt...  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 20, 2010, 06:29:01 PM
Cosmopolitan jokes are the best.....


 :::cheers:::

also you provoked that stroke
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 20, 2010, 07:49:36 PM
Yeah... damn you both! Now I can´t stop thinking of Shadowlords "stocks"... :biggriin:

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 20, 2010, 10:44:15 PM
Taureus isn't a Beastman player, so he won't be playing minotaurs.

I agree with Shadowlord.  I like Justnorth, I have absolutely no faith in his opinion on models.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on January 21, 2010, 12:21:57 AM
That and I find that distasteful personally, I wouldn't mind if someone else had done so, but me, no.

Prude!

Taureus isn't a Beastman player, so he won't be playing minotaurs.

I agree with Shadowlord.  I like Justnorth, I have absolutely no faith in his opinion on models.

Agreed. Though you all like the old Minotaur lord, who I hate.

I am considering using the Rat Ogre bodies if the new minotaur bodies don't work out.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Taureus on January 21, 2010, 01:51:06 AM
Taureus isn't a Beastman player, so he won't be playing minotaurs.

I agree with Shadowlord.  I like Justnorth, I have absolutely no faith in his opinion on models.

Phil

Not that those mountains of muscle wouldn't make awesome conversion material for my Chaos Mortals army. But yeah, PhillyT can keep the bestiality army for himself.  :dry:

Just kidding Phil.  ::heretic::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 21, 2010, 09:19:59 PM
Nothing short of absolutely hideous.

Thanks for the tip!

After seeing your favorite halflings and giant from another thread, the minos must suck hard.

It's true, those halflings absolutely batter the 20 year old sculpts GW are still sitting on, I would love to see some new GW halflings inn the 28mm Empire range.
As for the new Giants, they are bigger than the Forgeworld Giant and I haven't seen any pictures released on the net for them yet, I've been lucky enough to see the pre cast masters  :icon_wink:, they should come in about 15 quid cheaper than the Forgeworld Giant as well.
I expect to see them for sale after Salute at Excel in April, they will be previewed there in a massive game of AoA on a table 16 feet long and 6 feet wide, featuring a scratch built castle 3 feet by 4 feet wide.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 21, 2010, 09:39:07 PM
Wow, you know how to change the text in a quote.

I bow to yer internez hak!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 22, 2010, 06:22:17 PM
I saw the Minotaurs in GW today, painted nicely.

AMAZING.
The guy who decided to let those horrid ones be put in the book and online is an idiot.


I also saw the book, but didnt get a proper look through. The drunkeness of Centigors is not so bad anymore. 1-2 was beneficial. +2I i think..., 3-4 was hungover, -1 movement, but get to reroll primal fury (pass a LD test, hate the enemy), and 5-6 was beneficial again.
BS3 ungor raiders, which is cool.

And a magic item which lets brayshamans scout! that is pure wintasm.

There are three big rare monsters, the jabberlsythe, the cygor and one whos name I forgot...
Cygor = stone throwing, wizard hating, giant.
Jabberslythe = flying fighty thing
So I don't really see why they needed the other thing.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 22, 2010, 07:30:24 PM
oo, he also said "big rumours, whcih are probably true, new edition of warhammer out in June/July, intime for the summer holidays!"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: FR1DAY on January 22, 2010, 08:34:20 PM
To be examined/played(?) over the bash I hope
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 22, 2010, 09:05:46 PM
To be examined/played(?) over the bash I hope
You heard any rumours too? or just hoping.

If we could all play it at the Bash, that timing would be absolutely amazing.

Mino pics. I should have taken one of the whole regiment. sorry guys. I guess I was too flushed with excitement!
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/IMAG0013.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/IMAG0014.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg88/nottsfootballfan/IMAG0015.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 22, 2010, 10:16:14 PM
Would they release it July though? I thought they tended to release new editions in September.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 22, 2010, 10:20:41 PM
Would they release it July though? I thought they tended to release new editions in September.
Dunno, thats just what the GW dude said. Think he said the last 40k box was released at the start of a summer, but he might have been wrong.

He probably isn't anymore informed than anyone who reads all the rumour threads on warseer.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 22, 2010, 10:21:44 PM
I thought the last 40K one was September, but I don't really know.

Oh, and that minotaur does look better than in the other pictures.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 22, 2010, 10:25:53 PM
yes, 6th of september
(oddly enough when I searched for "black reach pass" on google, the third link was porn)

And they looked much better irl than in those 3 rubbish pictures I took.
I'm definitely going to buy a box of them at some point, and some ungor raiders, and see if I can make an army with that and with what I already have.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 22, 2010, 10:45:32 PM
Those look so much better.  :icon_eek:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 23, 2010, 09:29:07 AM
Would they release it July though? I thought they tended to release new editions in September.

Box set is released later than the rulebook.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 23, 2010, 10:35:56 AM
Really? Oh. Thanks for explaining.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 23, 2010, 10:44:58 AM
The only problem with the new minotaurs (well maybe not the only, but one of the main ones for me) is that I worry that next to the new ones, the old ones will look somewhat underfed and pathetic... which means you either have to live with that, have a weird looking army, get no new ones, replace or your old ones or... always put them on opposite flanks of your army  :-P.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 23, 2010, 10:53:51 AM
Just think of all those poor orc players then - orcs get bigger every time new models are released!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 23, 2010, 11:43:20 AM
Just think of all those poor orc players then - orcs get bigger every time new models are released!

Like that HUUUUUUGE plastic warboss they released...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 23, 2010, 12:25:51 PM
Just think of all those poor orc players then - orcs get bigger every time new models are released!

Oh I know, I have orcs (chaos dwarf slaves). Always been a bit of a problem I suppose, I got some of the old wood elf warhawk riders recently and they look rather silly next to the new ones... they are almost literally half the size.

Oddly, dark elves got smaller than they were a couple of editions ago. Thank goodness!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 23, 2010, 02:58:57 PM
Dunno if you have seen this but here is a short video of the new Beastmen AB:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--IOJpVmK58&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 23, 2010, 10:42:34 PM
The only problem with the new minotaurs (well maybe not the only, but one of the main ones for me) is that I worry that next to the new ones, the old ones will look somewhat underfed and pathetic...

So you are complaining that minotaurs are too big and actually look impressive?

Quote
which means you either have to live with that, have a weird looking army, get no new ones, replace or your old ones or... always put them on opposite flanks of your army  :-P.

I have 12 old minotaur.  I will just use them and not worry.  This is chaos after all!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Draig on January 23, 2010, 11:03:23 PM
Just think of all those poor orc players then - orcs get bigger every time new models are released!

I used Blackreach Warbosses to convert my Blood Bowl Black Orcs. Ogre hands and arm armour from the metal Tyrant fit the bodies perfectly. By contrast my ancient Ork painboy model fits Night Goblin arms precisely. That's a lot of creep. By 2020 we're going to have a serious problem!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 23, 2010, 11:49:29 PM
Just think of all those poor orc players then - orcs get bigger every time new models are released!

Yeah it's true, Orcs are now massive compared to just ten years ago when they were just, well, big.

I used Blackreach Warbosses to convert my Blood Bowl Black Orcs. Ogre hands and arm armour from the metal Tyrant fit the bodies perfectly. By contrast my ancient Ork painboy model fits Night Goblin arms precisely. That's a lot of creep. By 2020 we're going to have a serious problem!

There's a reason they are going to ten models in a box, at 35mm each, rank and file won't fit 20 in a box anymore.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 24, 2010, 12:42:03 AM
I love the size of the black orcs.  They are the right size finally.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 24, 2010, 01:43:45 AM
Maybe for an Ogre but they sure as heck ain't 28mm.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 24, 2010, 10:22:17 AM
I love the size of the black orcs.  They are the right size finally.

Yes, and in line with the fluff.

Old comic orcs are dead - thank the powers that be.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 24, 2010, 10:26:12 AM
The orcs and Orkz are proper now! Why are you complaining Justnorth?
GW made the right move when they started to create their version of the orcs/orkz as something less weedy and really fighty and hurty. Now they look like the threat to the world they are supposed to be.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 24, 2010, 10:27:29 AM
I think the plastic rank and file still look to have some of the comical in their sculpting, and that becomes blatantly obvious when compared to the more mature menace one can see in the LotR Orc sculpts.
Rank and file orcs, while being ridiculously oversized are still relatively kiddy-licious.  :icon_eek:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 24, 2010, 10:29:31 AM
Maybe for an Ogre but they sure as heck ain't 28mm.

HAve you ever met a black orc?  How are you sure that the models do not represent a black orc scaled to 28mm?  Do you expect everything to be the height of a human?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 24, 2010, 10:32:11 AM
I am constantly tempted to collect a Blorc regiment. Just because GW have fooled me into believeing they are more value for the money today than Goldswords.

Damn... they look so sexy in all their urtyness, them plastic Black orcs.  :icon_redface:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 24, 2010, 10:33:39 AM
The only problem with the new minotaurs (well maybe not the only, but one of the main ones for me) is that I worry that next to the new ones, the old ones will look somewhat underfed and pathetic...

So you are complaining that minotaurs are too big and actually look impressive?

Quote
which means you either have to live with that, have a weird looking army, get no new ones, replace or your old ones or... always put them on opposite flanks of your army  :-P.

I have 12 old minotaur.  I will just use them and not worry.  This is chaos after all!

Phil


I'm not really even complaining per se. I just think they might look weird next to each other. And it's more because the old ones were so slender than thinking that the new ones are too beefy.

But I'm not sure yet whether or not I'll need more anyways. I already have 6 minos and 6 chaos ogres (which I guess are going to be mino stand-ins from now on...)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 24, 2010, 10:35:32 AM
Do you expect everything to be the height of a human?

I doubt it myself, but I strongly believe that there has to be some WFB bashing for him to function.

Mature LotR Orcs?  :icon_lol:

That's just retarded in so many ways.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 24, 2010, 11:01:12 AM
I guess by mature he means evil looking/naturalistic/gritty and sneaky... sort off. Like they are in the movie and the books.
LoTR orcs, only Moria goblins die in greater number per human!  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 24, 2010, 02:39:01 PM
I guess by mature he means evil looking/naturalistic/gritty and sneaky... sort off. Like they are in the movie and the books.

Must have missed the gritty look of the latest O&G and Ork books then...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 24, 2010, 03:26:16 PM
Seems so... Space orkz, as gritty as they come.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: DariusZero on January 24, 2010, 04:08:58 PM
Something like this?

(http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp34/dariusZero/miniature%20art/BLArtOfClintLangleyMain_873x627.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 24, 2010, 04:15:42 PM
There are better ones out there, for instance the 40K codex is crammed with gritty sweet Orkiness.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 24, 2010, 04:41:49 PM
The 40K ork Codex are in many ways the ultimate 40K Codex!  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 24, 2010, 05:27:49 PM
Maybe for an Ogre but they sure as heck ain't 28mm.

HAve you ever met a black orc?  How are you sure that the models do not represent a black orc scaled to 28mm?  Do you expect everything to be the height of a human?

Phil

In a literal sense you can obviously do anything you like in terms of scale.

What gives me and obviously a lot of other collectors/painters and gamers a bit of the old eyes rolling effect is the size creep compared to previous editions so they don't mesh with your existing G-dubya rank and file for instance, which is a real shame when you are looking for new poses to bring a little variation to an existing unit... and also their scale to other models from G-dubya's different armies.
I understand that the kiddie target market doesn't bat an eyelid because they are not around long enough to comprehend anything like size or price creep.
It's us oldies that see the negative side of it.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 24, 2010, 06:14:04 PM
It's us oldies that see the negative side of it.

Agreed!

It's teens like PhillyT who have no idea what they are talking about...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 24, 2010, 10:10:03 PM
I see.  Why should they remain fixed on the shitty old models when they can improve the look?  They haven't creeped since 2000.  10 years is pretty good.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: shavixmir on January 24, 2010, 10:37:21 PM
The orcs and Orkz are proper now! Why are you complaining Justnorth?
GW made the right move when they started to create their version of the orcs/orkz as something less weedy and really fighty and hurty. Now they look like the threat to the world they are supposed to be.
It's just a pity their army sucks in combat though.
However, I did notice that goblins with swords, shields and light armour are better and cheaper than Bretonnian men-at-arms...
Goes to prove.. if you ain't on a horse, you ain't nothin' but dung. Or a goblin, obviously.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mogsam on January 24, 2010, 10:38:31 PM
They also suffer from Animosity and don't get knights leadership. Fairly good trade off.

Mogsam
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: shavixmir on January 24, 2010, 10:47:35 PM
They also suffer from Animosity and don't get knights leadership. Fairly good trade off.

Mogsam
True, true... easier to paint though.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on January 24, 2010, 11:54:12 PM
JustNorth, the old Orcs were crappy models. I had some; and a few of them are still my favourites (the bully from the Rock Lobber for instance) but to be honest, to expect models to mesh when they obviously went for a major style change is deluded. You really have to learn to stop complaining all the time.

When the HellCannon Chaos Dwarfs were released, did you complain that they wouldn't mesh with your big hat Chaos Dwarfs? Changing styles can't make everyone happy, and why should it? When its a matter of aesthetics its all personal opinion and holds little weight.

Perhaps I like Porsche 911s, and you don't - does that mean Porsche have to change their design to make you happy? If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you liked their older models, then buy used from someone else. But don't complain because the company wants to update their design to appeal to new customers.

Why you think GW are not like any other company that make pretty things, I have no idea.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 25, 2010, 01:47:27 PM
I got myself a box of tyranid gargoyles to make harpies. Those wings are so sweet! I also like the bodies. Those harpies won't look like woman/bird hybrids, but very menacing!

I contempltaed if harpies are viable in a beast list and came to the conclusion that they will fir into a list. My reasoning is, that fielding 2000 or 2250 points will leave you with open slots:

Characters: 800 points are easily spent
4x5 ambushing ungor/hounds: 120
3 chariots: 240
1 big monster 275
Leaves about 600 points for specials. 4x3 Minotaurs are already more than that, if you don't want to go 2x3 minos and 2x2 razors you have one special slot left. 55 Points for some harpies should fit nicely.

I also found good replacements for razorgors, the GW model is not nice enough to spend 22.5 Euro on. Especiall if you want 4-5 of them...
(http://www.vesivus.com/eBay/dndminis/WQ_Redspawn_Firebelcher.jpg)
(http://www.vesivus.com/eBay/dndminis/BW_Bluespawn_Stormlizard.jpg)
Prepainted plastics from the collectible D&D skirmishing game. They are OOP, but easily available on e-bay . With a proper paintjob they will fit nicely.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 25, 2010, 02:05:52 PM
The lower one looks nice, but the scales are a bit too lizard-like for beastmen. Should be possible to Gs some fur patches over them though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 25, 2010, 02:12:37 PM
I am buying the tide of spawn box and putting them on 50mm bases with the requisite addition of green stuff buffing.  Those will be my razorgor.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 25, 2010, 03:50:43 PM
Yea they look a bit lizardlike (don't even ask what they are supposed to be in the D&D world), but i'm OK with some scales. I's chaos, we even have a scaly skin gift and some of the chaos hounds sport scales too.
What unit size would you run? I think two wil be good. Cheap but good hitting power. A single one might be nice but is probably a waste of a special slot. Three are more resilent than two but already have a big frontage. Four or more just takes up too much space in my opinion.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 25, 2010, 06:41:02 PM
I think three is best.  12 S6 attacks, and 9 wounds.  But 2 seems popular too.  Only 130 points and plenty of attacks.

On a side note, I was just thinking about the ghorgon.  I think he is much better than I thought.  He has 6 attacks, but has bloodgreed and frenzy!  That means 7 attacks and another one everytime he wins combat!  7+ killing blow attacks at WS 4!

Plus he is M7!  Just moved up alot in my book.  My new favorite LD10 stubborn ItP unit?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 25, 2010, 08:36:09 PM
On a sidenote, it's nice to see they kept one of our mainstays the same. lack of armour saves.  :|

It's probably good though as with the hugeness of our monsters, it'd be a bit mean for them to be impervious too.

And beasts have always been about trying to run across the battlefield fast enough to not get blown to pieces.

Could make for some classic battles vs Empire where most of the army is blown away on the way over, but the remainder is so fearsome it rips through what is left. Very movie-like.
 8-)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 25, 2010, 08:50:39 PM
Seems like the best answer towards the beasties is knights, cannons and gunline. Funny... Another GW army that reinforce the notion that Empire infantry is not really meant for war anymore unless they are packing rods.
I think I shall start to pay attention to Union Generals army concept. :icon_razz:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 25, 2010, 09:07:23 PM
BEHOLD!

The attack of the Pumba Clones is at hand!

(http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80183&d=1264453511)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 25, 2010, 09:08:01 PM
Those things scare the hell out of me.

The eyes!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 25, 2010, 09:09:13 PM
 :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin:
 :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin:
 :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :ph34r: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :ph34r: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin:

My spearmen when they see this coming.....
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 25, 2010, 09:11:27 PM
 :icon_eek:
Man... those gotta be GW:s wackiest minis ever. And scariest!
Now, I suddenly feel an urge to run away and by myself that second Helblaster. And a unit of 10 Outriders suddenly feel like a very sensible choice for the future!
Also, I want Alan Quatermain as a special character for them, just so he can drop them Pumpagor well away from my poor halberdiers.  :unsure:

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 25, 2010, 09:15:02 PM
If my Ogres ever beat these, those eyes will make for a tasty dish.

The sculptor is sitting back laughing his ass off.  :icon_mrgreen:

Twilight Zone anyone?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 25, 2010, 09:52:39 PM
If anyone would be able to beat those with ogres, it would be you!  :icon_mrgreen:

I just don´t think I can do it with Empire in a decent fight. That said. If I could get the charge my halberdiers might pull it of. But getting the charge is easier with knights. And nothing say Kebab as well as Inner circle lances.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 25, 2010, 11:02:13 PM
JustNorth, the old Orcs were crappy models.

...and now the new rank and file Orc models are crappy too, big deal.

I had some; and a few of them are still my favourites (the bully from the Rock Lobber for instance)

That was a nice model and no mistake.

but to be honest, to expect models to mesh when they obviously went for a major style change is deluded.

Style has nothing to do with size creep. Fine change the style but try to keep the models in the same scale for cryin' out loud. :eusa_wall:

You really have to learn to stop complaining all the time.

Awww c'mon, you know you love it...   :::cheers:::

When the HellCannon Chaos Dwarfs were released, did you complain that they wouldn't mesh with your big hat Chaos Dwarfs?

I didn't own the big hat brigade when the HC crew came out, I sold them 10 years earlier and the Big Hat brigade came out 15 years before the HC crew, so there was none of the ongoing continuity in CD's  that has been the case constantly with Orcs in the Fantasy genre for 25 years. :icon_eek:

Changing styles can't make everyone happy, and why should it?

No problem with style, it's the scale creep that does my head in. :eusa_wall:


I have no idea.

THats because I've been talking about scale creep not style changes.
Style changes can be good as long as the scale stays the same, because it makes it easier to get variation within the same unit.
Recently I was underwhelmed by the new plastic Ungor and Gor
[/quote]
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on January 26, 2010, 12:13:28 AM
JustNorth, the old Orcs were crappy models.

...and now the new rank and file Orc models are crappy too, big deal.

but to be honest, to expect models to mesh when they obviously went for a major style change is deluded.

Style has nothing to do with size creep. Fine change the style but try to keep the models in the same scale for cryin' out loud. :eusa_wall:

Changing styles can't make everyone happy, and why should it?

No problem with style, it's the scale creep that does my head in. :eusa_wall:

THats because I've been talking about scale creep not style changes.
Style changes can be good as long as the scale stays the same, because it makes it easier to get variation within the same unit.
Recently I was underwhelmed by the new plastic Ungor and Gor

'Size creep' is a style change. And your implication that style change can be good as long as scale remains the same is flawed. Style change can be good while changing scale if its appropriate, and when the original scale is seen as too small in many's opinion, its appropriate.

And the new rank and file orcs are not crappy - they are fantastic.  And thats where is falls down to an opinion difference. No ones opinion is right or wrong when talking about how a miniature looks.

I also am underwhelmed by the new Ungor. They are nice, just not neessary and not outstanding.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 26, 2010, 12:55:29 AM
:icon_eek:
Man... those gotta be GW:s wackiest minis ever. And scariest!
Now, I suddenly feel an urge to run away and by myself that second Helblaster. And a unit of 10 Outriders suddenly feel like a very sensible choice for the future!
Also, I want Alan Quatermain as a special character for them, just so he can drop them Pumpagor well away from my poor halberdiers.  :unsure:

The one on the far right looks like some cartoon character thats having it's Tail pinched by Rogger Rabbit or something like that.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 26, 2010, 02:47:45 AM
Those look fucking amazing!  I didn't know they had additional poses!!!!!!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 26, 2010, 08:39:04 AM
They look sooo godawfully bad... oh MAN! Are they ever BA-haaaad!
They look like they're straight out of a Bugs Bunny episode... Quick Elmer! Shoot them!
 :ph34r:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 26, 2010, 08:55:13 AM
I hate to say it, but apart from the eyes, with the variety of poses and all grouped together, those razorgors actually look pretty good... GW don't do many minis that look like they are going that fast. Those guys are hurtling at the enemy. Just such a pity about the eyes...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 26, 2010, 09:00:04 AM
I hate to say it, but apart from the eyes, with the variety of poses and all grouped together, those razorgors actually look pretty good... GW don't do many minis that look like they are going that fast. Those guys are hurtling at the enemy. Just such a pity about the eyes...

I think they get the cartoony crazy slavering beast about to teat shite up look pretty good.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 26, 2010, 10:07:32 AM
Those look fucking amazing!  I didn't know they had additional poses!!!!!!

Dem Gitz are kunversions...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 26, 2010, 11:21:28 AM
Is it only me wondering how those.....mate?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 26, 2010, 11:27:08 AM
Just ask Merrick, he has the cactus experience
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 26, 2010, 11:32:09 AM
You called?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 26, 2010, 11:35:05 AM
Cactus experience?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 26, 2010, 11:36:27 AM
Thread in Backtable went on about having intercourse with a cactus, and the need for drilling a hole.

Feel free to delete this post after you've read it and understood as it doesn't really add anything.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 26, 2010, 11:39:13 AM
It all stemmed from Boldrick's sig.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 26, 2010, 12:02:23 PM
Those look fucking amazing!  I didn't know they had additional poses!!!!!!

Dem Gitz are kunversions...

Grrr... I was afraid of that!!!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 26, 2010, 12:06:43 PM
Thread in Backtable

I see the problem now. Thanks for the disturbing explanation.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on January 26, 2010, 12:29:50 PM
Thread in Backtable

I see the problem now. Thanks for the disturbing explanation.

Basically just another dick joke.

Back on topic - I really am not appealed by seeing more of those monstrosities. I would have much preferred a Gorgon model.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 26, 2010, 12:34:35 PM
yeh, the Pumbagors are genuinely not good.

I don't really know why they called it a gorgon.
Is it anything at all like a mythological gorgon?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on January 26, 2010, 12:38:50 PM
I guess we will see what the fluff says - because we have speculated on it...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 26, 2010, 12:45:20 PM
Didn't we decide it was based on the bull-gorgon that showed up in medieval bestiaries and in dungeons and dragons?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 26, 2010, 12:46:50 PM
I bet my money on...."the pumbagor doesn´t suck as bad with a different paint job like the minotaurs!"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 26, 2010, 12:53:38 PM
I think the pumbagor is awesome. I want one. It will be my generals mount.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 26, 2010, 02:34:37 PM
Didn't we decide it was based on the bull-gorgon that showed up in medieval bestiaries and in dungeons and dragons?
OH yes, I forgot.

I think a lot of the good 2000 pt BEast armies will have a gorgon and a Cygor.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 26, 2010, 02:37:03 PM
Aly Morrison, who else?, was very pleased with how the Pumbagor came out.

Even though it looks completely different from the art (or so I am told).

I do not really care as I think some wackiness is permitted (some...).  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 26, 2010, 02:56:16 PM
It's not wacky, it just sucks.

But as Fandir said, maybe it will be nicer with a paintjob. The minotaurs were so much nicer, but then again I think the minos with the horrid paintjob are nicer than the horrid pumbagor.

So maybe the nice paintjob will make it tolerable.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 26, 2010, 02:59:46 PM
I think the pumbagor is awesome. I want one. It will be my generals mount.

Is your general perchance a meerkat? This would be one fantastic model!

Timongor riding Pumbargor.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: FR1DAY on January 26, 2010, 03:19:18 PM
simples!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 26, 2010, 03:45:38 PM
SEEMPLES.

And no.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 26, 2010, 05:22:34 PM
It's not wacky, it just sucks.

You should try laughing some day.  :closed-eyes:

You have been hanging out with James "yeah, and we ain't falling for no bananas in the tailpipe *" rufus too much.

* Free candy for anyone who knows where this is from (besides the two dinos, soth and dad).

Somewhere in a big company such as GW horrid sculpts will sooner or later see the day, and I am still laughing at those four Razorgors.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 26, 2010, 05:29:24 PM
Dinosaur remembers... BHC.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 26, 2010, 05:34:48 PM
He he he google for the win but if I had the quote in German I probably would have known it too.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on January 26, 2010, 05:59:12 PM
Way after my time ..... but knowing SL was it the "Big Hooters Club"     :engel:

or did Brigitte fill that role in the next one ................
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: FR1DAY on January 26, 2010, 06:43:44 PM
385 north and the playboy mansion were in the 2nd one, not that I had that video as a teenageboy when it can out. :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 26, 2010, 06:49:37 PM
It's not wacky, it just sucks.

You should try laughing some day.  :closed-eyes:

You have been hanging out with James "yeah, and we ain't falling for no bananas in the tailpipe *" rufus too much.

* Free candy for anyone who knows where this is from (besides the two dinos, soth and dad).

Somewhere in a big company such as GW horrid sculpts will sooner or later see the day, and I am still laughing at those four Razorgors.
eh? Havent you seen the photos of my joyfilled face during warhammer?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 26, 2010, 07:00:46 PM
Nah... I can´t really see you as a smiling person, Finlay. You´re too serious.  :icon_razz:

Anyway, I have sick imagies of a Meerkat army commanded by Meerkat lord Timon on his trusty mount.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 26, 2010, 07:16:51 PM
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/Tilea%20games/P8300044.jpg)

(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/Tilea%20games/P8300033.jpg)

(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/VC%20vs%20Empire/P5030018.jpg)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 26, 2010, 07:20:03 PM
Young Frank Skinner.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 26, 2010, 07:30:14 PM
Those grins look very forced.
"Quick, he's pointing the camera, look happy!"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 26, 2010, 08:12:08 PM
Those grins look very forced.

True, with a fart on it's way.  :closed-eyes:

"Almost there..."
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: ZeroTwentythree on January 26, 2010, 08:51:16 PM
You have been hanging out with James "yeah, and we ain't falling for no bananas in the tailpipe *" rufus too much.

* Free candy for anyone who knows where this is from (besides the two dinos, soth and dad).


Strange. I just used that quote about a week ago. Ah... the days when Eddie Murphy was still funny.


Cliche as it may sound, I finally did see the minos in person and they didn't look as bad unpainted. So who knows, maybe the pumbas will turn out OK. They do look pretty bad in that pic, though.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 26, 2010, 09:17:39 PM
Ah... the days when Eddie Murphy was still funny.

I should have you silenced for forgetting Donkey.

Quote
Cliche as it may sound, I finally did see the minos in person and they didn't look as bad unpainted. So who knows, maybe the pumbas will turn out OK. They do look pretty bad in that pic, though.

The beastman player in our group, also known as Ogre food, is getting a shitload of the new minos to cripple my army. We will have our monthly painting day sunday on the 7th so I am gonna get a real good peak then (I have no time to visit the local stores until then).

I am more intererested in them pot bellied Ungors.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: McKnight on January 26, 2010, 09:26:27 PM
Those grins look very forced.

True, with a fart on it's way.  :closed-eyes:

"Almost there..."

For a minute there, i thought you were talking about the pumbagors...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 26, 2010, 09:27:45 PM
 :biggriin:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 26, 2010, 10:00:18 PM
The Ghorgon is a giant minotaur.  All of his rules mimic those of smaller minotaur.  They are mutants, more so than normal minotaur.

As for the Razorgor.  There is something so zany and entertaining about them that I adore them!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 26, 2010, 10:32:21 PM
They look sooo godawfully bad... oh MAN! Are they ever BA-haaaad!
They look like they're straight out of a Bugs Bunny episode... Quick Elmer! Shoot them!
 :ph34r:

At last , the voice of reason. 8-)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 26, 2010, 10:52:55 PM
'Size creep' is a style change.

No it's not, it's just bigger.  :icon_wink:

Worse, it's a bald faced attempt to keep the GW models different from all the other manufacturers without sculpting them to be better, GW models are bigger than almost all the competition with the exception of Gamezone?, and Avatars of War, which are ridiculously massive.

And your implication that style change can be good as long as scale remains the same is flawed. Style change can be good while changing scale if its appropriate, and when the original scale is seen as too small in many's opinion, its appropriate.

What many?
I belong to the biggest gaming club in the UK and every one of the members there thinks that size creep sucks.
Over 50 club regulars every Monday night feel the same way.
None of us like it.
For the same reason, it makes it harder to get variation for the existing units we already purchased from the previous editions.
The 'many's opinion' I encounter are a lot of older gamers who are club regulars who have been collecting since at least 3rd edition and they are well and truly 'over' size and price creep.
It's not a style, it's a marketing tactic and it sucks for the older gamers.

And the new rank and file orcs are not crappy - they are fantastic.  And thats where is falls down to an opinion difference. No ones opinion is right or wrong when talking about how a miniature looks.

I'm prepared to accept that you think they look fantastic, but you are not prepared to accept that I think they look like a pile of kaka. Thats the view from where I stand.
Whatever makes you happy I guess.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 26, 2010, 11:07:01 PM
I like that chaos warriors, knights, orcs, and minotaur are epically large.  I am also glad that I do not belong to the largest UK gaming club, because you all seem to eat cucumber sandwiches and drink shitty tea all day... and be really obnoxious about models!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 26, 2010, 11:25:15 PM
Isn't that the second time recently he said "I'm the member of the biggest... and we all think so"?  :closed-eyes:

Probably earlier in this thread on the same subject. Or on orcs.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 26, 2010, 11:42:36 PM
Isn't that the second time recently he said "I'm the member of the biggest... and we all think so"?  :closed-eyes:

Probably earlier in this thread on the same subject. Or on orcs.

Nice catch.

Really?
First I've heard of it.
I belong to the biggest wargaming club in the UK, the South London Warlords, they rarely if ever have less than 50 club members playing every Monday night (they put on the massive Salute show every year in London) it is a club dominated by older (grognards  :icon_mrgreen:) chaps (although I'm not sure if any are as venerable as Midaski  :-P)  and among the fantasy players, not one of them has much time for the new plastic Doombull model but they all love the old metal one.
All the older fantasy players I know are keen on the older model.
I can't blame GW for bringing out a new version though because that metal Doombull has been around for a loooong time now and they do need to update their armies over time.
It was always going to be a hard act to follow.

"I'm now going to reiteratate my point that playing games with some guys in a large club gives me some importance, even though it could be any Tom, Dick or Harry living in London."
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 27, 2010, 12:52:42 AM
Those grins look very forced.
"Quick, he's pointing the camera, look happy!"
d00d, you fricken met me! you know my general disposition level is definitely set to "happy" and not to "grumpy"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Death on January 27, 2010, 02:02:34 AM
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f207/sparky_sparkfire/Tilea%20games/P8300044.jpg)


ZOMG!!!!! Its a human skinned night goblin without his hood! in artificial sunllight no less!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 27, 2010, 02:08:09 AM
HAHAHHAHAHAHa... I didn't see that before.

I do want to get to Nottingham though and checkout Warhammer World
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 27, 2010, 03:00:56 AM
I like Justnorth though.  But he really has shit attitudes about what makes fun models.

And I am still amazed at how thin Finley remains despite drinking his weight in alcohol everyday...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: ZeroTwentythree on January 27, 2010, 04:49:27 AM
I should have you silenced for forgetting Donkey.

OK, I admit. He's funny as Donkey.

But then, I'd have to say that. This is the BEASTmen thread...



...something something something big club something something scale creep...

Size creep? Like the new night gobbos and skaven?

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 27, 2010, 07:18:00 AM
Those grins look very forced.
"Quick, he's pointing the camera, look happy!"
d00d, you fricken met me! you know my general disposition level is definitely set to "happy" and not to "grumpy"

I think you were acting.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on January 27, 2010, 07:22:42 AM
'Size creep' is a style change.

No it's not, it's just bigger.  :icon_wink:

So are you saying the style didn't also change with the size? I am pretty sure the models have a different look. Hence the size difference is linked to the style difference - which thus makes it a key component of a style change.

And your implication that style change can be good as long as scale remains the same is flawed. Style change can be good while changing scale if its appropriate, and when the original scale is seen as too small in many's opinion, its appropriate.

What many?
I belong to the biggest gaming club in the UK and every one of the members there thinks that size creep sucks.
Over 50 club regulars every Monday night feel the same way.
None of us like it.
For the same reason, it makes it harder to get variation for the existing units we already purchased from the previous editions.
The 'many's opinion' I encounter are a lot of older gamers who are club regulars who have been collecting since at least 3rd edition and they are well and truly 'over' size and price creep.
It's not a style, it's a marketing tactic and it sucks for the older gamers.

Are these same people complaining about the size shrinkage of the new skeletons? Size anti-creep? Yes, apparantly GW make all their models bigger and bigger every edition. The size change for Orcs was an active choice to change the style.

And just because you and 50 other groggnards all grumble in the corner about the good old days, doesn't mean that your opinions are the be all and end all. They are, afterall, just opinions and hold no more weight than anyone elses. Being of the same demographic, it stands to reason your opinions would be similar. But the style of Orcs did change (read size into this or not). So the new models wouldn't match anyway, so instead of complaining about 'size creep' there would be complaints of 'style change'.

All of which means GW has no reason to care, because you are using your old models and not buying new ones regardless. To want to change the look of their models is well within their rights, and for you not to like it is well within yours. Just don't complain and expect someone to do something about it, because thats just naive.

And the new rank and file orcs are not crappy - they are fantastic.  And thats where is falls down to an opinion difference. No ones opinion is right or wrong when talking about how a miniature looks.

I'm prepared to accept that you think they look fantastic, but you are not prepared to accept that I think they look like a pile of kaka. Thats the view from where I stand.
Whatever makes you happy I guess.

I never said that, nor did I imply it. Once again, you are reading into my post what you wish to read and responding as such. I don't care what you think of them. notice how I said 'No ones opinion is right or wrong'. Apologies for not saying 'I think' at the beginning of the sentence you quoted. But I was responding to your own assertion previously that they were crappy. So hows about stop playing the martyr, and have a grown up discussion.

We can argue this in circles all day - but it appears as though we just have a difference of opinion, and I find no need to convince you of something that I think.


I like that chaos warriors, knights, orcs, and minotaur are epically large.  I am also glad that I do not belong to the largest UK gaming club, because you all seem to eat cucumber sandwiches and drink shitty tea all day... and be really obnoxious about models!

I reckon. It seems to be JustNorth's new 'trump card' in arguments of pure aesthetics.

....

Oh, some others caught on too....
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 27, 2010, 07:23:39 AM
Size creep? Like the new night gobbos and skaven?

 :icon_lol:

JustNorth, winner of the Epic Fail Award three years in a row.

@ PhillyT, I am with you on the razorgors, too cute to hate.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 27, 2010, 07:40:20 AM
While I agree that JustNorth's opinion is as good as the next guys, let's not derail this into a discussion including personal attacks.
 
And for the record : I like the ranked up Pumbagors more every time I look at them.
They are too goofy not to like.
 
And no, mickey, that is not grounds for divorce
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 27, 2010, 09:05:34 AM
I like that chaos warriors, knights, orcs, and minotaur are epically large.  I am also glad that I do not belong to the largest UK gaming club, because you all seem to eat cucumber sandwiches and drink tea all day... and be really obnoxious about models!

Phil

There is no need to attack tea and cucumber sandwiches.

These are the good things in life.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 27, 2010, 09:08:12 AM
And for the record : I like the ranked up Pumbagors more every time I look at them.
They are too goofy not to like.

100% agree. They make me smile too much to dislike them. I think they're wonderful.

Also cucumbers make me sick.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 27, 2010, 09:17:39 AM
Are cucumber sandwiches really just sandwiches with nothing but cucumber in them? If so, why would anyone want to eat them?

There's nothing wrong with cucumber in itslef, but that's not my idea of a sandwich.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 27, 2010, 09:21:28 AM
Indeed, they are not my cup of tea in regards to sandwishes.  :closed-eyes:

And as for the pumbagors I refer to previous speakers. To wacky cute not to like.
And you you others who hate whenever GW goes of on a wacky tangent to bring some humour back into the game... Hakuna Matata!

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 27, 2010, 09:22:44 AM
Hakuna Matata...

Mathi that is the best thing you've said in months and I think most of what you say is interesting (hell I even read most of it  :engel: )

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 27, 2010, 09:22:56 AM
And you you others who hate whenever GW

The delightful, delicious irony.  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 27, 2010, 09:25:52 AM
Well, who said I could not deliver a line or two at my own expense! :icon_mrgreen:
That is the mark of the great comedian after all! :icon_razz:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on January 27, 2010, 09:58:20 AM
Some of you guys are priceless ..... :icon_rolleyes:

The internet famed for exaggeration and outrageous opinion, and when someone says something and then tries to back it up you lot cry foul.

South London Warlords are a huge club - they run Salute every year - and I doubt if every member is in the 40 - 60 age group :engel:
I'd take a concensus of their opinions against "Fred Nurd" from his shack in Timbukto.
 
We had several sqawks about how Goldswords would sell - well the single box in our shop is still there - when was it released, May last year?

As you may know, I have a few models from various eras and the size issue is the most annoying - compare a C26 or an F2 mini with one today and there is a lot of difference.
The old Lords of Battle and the Reiksgard foot knights evidence a change back around 1989/1990.

Hell compare a plastic Ed.6 soldier of the Empire with the same edition Militia bodies, or a current State Trooper.

The 'look' of a model is a very subjective thing - I look at some of the stuff others rave about and think 'crap', and I am sure it works the other way round.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 27, 2010, 10:03:03 AM
But do you like cucumber sandwiches?

That's the real issue here.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on January 27, 2010, 10:09:48 AM
The thing is Midaski, I'm not convinced all members of salute believe the 'new' (6th ed) orc models to be crap like JustNorth claimed. For all members in the biggest club in the UK to have such a like minded opinion is why I cried foul.

The 'look' of a model is a very subjective thing - I look at some of the stuff others rave about and think 'crap', and I am sure it works the other way round.

Precisely.

Then there was also the discussion of whether 'size creep' is a style change or not - and in my argument for affecting an entire range of miniatures (instead of one set like your militia example). Basically it was a terminology issue which myself and JustNorth disagree with.

I don't deny size creep exists. I just don't think it a conscious decision to make everything bigger like I perceived JustNorth to imply.

But do you like cucumber sandwiches?

That's the real issue here.

Agree.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 27, 2010, 10:29:34 AM
The internet famed for exaggeration and outrageous opinion, and when someone says something and then tries to back it up you lot cry foul.

That's just boloni and I understand what Warlord means with the way the discussion is going.

Deaf ears and milky eyes FTW!

Cucumber sandwiches is shit, the pumbagors are meaty and different tasty.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 27, 2010, 10:46:43 AM
Quote
pumbagors are meaty and different tasty

Not really an ideal sandwich filling though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on January 27, 2010, 11:01:56 AM
Cucumber gives me wind ...............

Following two themes here of eating and W-E unit nicknames surely we should now refer to them as .......... PumBagels ...................

 :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 27, 2010, 12:00:22 PM
I like Justnorth though.  But he really has shit attitudes about what makes fun models.

And I am still amazed at how thin Finley remains despite drinking his weight in alcohol everyday...

Phil
The Eurobash is a time of special indulgence re alcohol consumption.

Yes, cucumber sandwhiches = cucumber and butter.
Pretty good. Better with smoked salmon.

Still can't believe people think the pumbagor is good.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 27, 2010, 12:07:34 PM
Still can't believe it's not butter.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on January 27, 2010, 12:08:07 PM
Still can't believe people think the pumbagel is good.

Ah see youth and old age both agree it's crap - it looks like some 'scary' creature from a weak childrens' TV programme ..............
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 27, 2010, 12:09:16 PM
A bit like something from Trap door then?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 27, 2010, 12:15:45 PM
Yes, cucumber sandwhiches = cucumber and butter.

So what's the point of that? To make you die of hunger?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 27, 2010, 12:20:11 PM
 Yet I prefer it to the Rieksguard knights everyone is so hot for...

MrDwhitey:  I can't beleive its not butter... that deserves to be sigged!!!!

 :::cheers:::

Phil

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 27, 2010, 12:27:52 PM
Yet I prefer it to the Rieksguard knights everyone is so hot for...

Which ones?

And who cares what other people like anyway?


And also, I've just noticed there are about fifty million pictures of Finlay in this thread for no apparent reason.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mogsam on January 27, 2010, 01:29:06 PM
I saw the minotaurs in a GW earlier. They actually aren't "that" bad. The GW ones are just painted bloody awefully. Would have stayed to look at pumagors but i can't spend more than 10 minutes in GW without them trying to sell me something expensive and the inevitable sarcatsic response.

Today it was the Nazgul flying thing.

Mogsam
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 27, 2010, 01:37:34 PM
Today it was the Nazgul flying thing.

But that's actually good.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Merrick on January 27, 2010, 01:44:31 PM
But does he actually need/want a Fell Beast?  :roll:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mogsam on January 27, 2010, 01:54:54 PM
Today it was the Nazgul flying thing.

But that's actually good.

I happen to agree but it wasn't really what I was after. Since I was looking for something to turn into a cockatrice.

The Nazgul isn't really much like a cockatrice...

Mogsam
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 27, 2010, 01:58:30 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/D-D-Miniatures-Against-the-Giants-Cockatrice-U_W0QQitemZ360172509940QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53dbf45af4&ssPageName=RSS:B:STORE:US:101 (http://cgi.ebay.com/D-D-Miniatures-Against-the-Giants-Cockatrice-U_W0QQitemZ360172509940QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53dbf45af4&ssPageName=RSS:B:STORE:US:101)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 27, 2010, 02:25:29 PM
That D&D one isn't ideal though. Also, it will be made out of funny plastic.

Probably the cockatrice is not a good idea for army lists, since there aren't any good models. Apart from the old marauder miniatures one I have.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on January 27, 2010, 02:32:41 PM
The small Dragons from the GW collectors range would be worth a look for the bodies. Then you'd just need a decent giant chicken head.
Perhaps have a look at those Ostrich knights in the Brush and Palette?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 27, 2010, 02:34:29 PM
Then you'd just need a decent giant chicken head.

Hold on... the lord of change is a cockatrice. Or a giant chicken, at least.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mogsam on January 27, 2010, 03:57:46 PM
I'm not too worried about the model itself, I'm going to have to do a fair bit of sculpting anyway. Just need the basic start of it.

Though that D&D one looks to be rather on the small side.

Mogsam
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 27, 2010, 04:03:58 PM
I don't often eat cucumber sandwiches, but I support their right to existence.

As to the razorgors (I get so tired of all the nicknames around here... I don't know why), I think the reason people can grow to like them somewhat is that they envision them without the big bulging eyes. That really helps a lot, though they should have been able to get something even better looking probably.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 27, 2010, 06:33:15 PM
But the eyes is what makes the model.  :Ohmy:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 27, 2010, 06:36:34 PM
Ah see youth and old age both agree it's crap - it looks like some 'scary' creature from a weak childrens' TV programme ..............

Low budget kiddy programmes monster...   that got me, that made me laugh out loud.

The Pumbagels are hideous, were they taken on board as some kind of promotional prize for a winner of a competition for the artistically challenged.?  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 27, 2010, 06:41:46 PM
  I am also glad that I do not belong to the largest UK gaming club, because you all seem to eat cucumber sandwiches and drink shitty tea all day... and be really obnoxious about models!
Phil

Hahahahaha that was farkin funny and made me laugh out loud as well.
Truth is, while there have never been cucumber sandwiches there on club night (cucumber sandwiches are a bit too posh and totally lacking in meat substances for the average south london warlord) we do get through a fair few cups of tea on a Monday night, so that was a good call.
Hahahhaah shitty tea, that cracks me up, spoken like a true seppo.
I do like a cup of decent coffee as well but that nonsense they serve up at Starbucks or dunkin donuts is warm coffee flavoured syrup and it's vile. You can keep that baloney and give me a good hot cuppa rosy lea anyday.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 27, 2010, 06:44:41 PM
Aly Morrison, who else?, was very pleased with how the Pumbagor came out.

Without meaning to be cruel, I don't think Aly has sculpted anything that's caught my eye since his missus (Trish) left him about 5 years ago.
He needs a new woman to get his sculpting mojo back.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on January 27, 2010, 06:46:28 PM
Taken away before soth bans me for being a mutha...

So how many Razors are ye getting PT?

If I dive beastly, I will get three with sick eyes.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 28, 2010, 12:44:46 AM
Got my first read of the book.

Some nifty magic items, a few randome ones, a few that I feel are already in need of an FAQ.

Minotaurs look cool so do Gorgons. WS4, Str6, T6, W6, A6, ld10. large target, terror, stubborn. Can disregard his 6 attacks and make 1 attack which counts as Killing Blow on a 4-6. If done in a challenge then the Gorgon can immediatly heal d3 wounds.

The Cygorclopsgiant thingy seems nifty but not crazy, same pts as the Gorgon, decent states except it's WS2 (6 attacks) against mages or guys with magic items (FAQ needed as does this incl banners and hence dose he re-roll against units carrying magic banners? Or is it meant to mean magic weapons/armour carried by characters?- course I shoudl reread the book first) he gets to re-roll his attacks. All wizards in 24" need to take a ld test each magic phase. If failed then any spell that doesn't cast counts as a miscast (there is an item that allows you to force a player to re-roll the miscast table).

I think one of the niftiest magic items is a cheap Chaos Gift which makes a character -2 to hit in cover so a mage 2" on a forest line will be -3 to hit always (skirmish, forest, gift) making him an annoying git to kill while he can be blowing holes in your opponents army with spells.

The other one is an item that allows the Shaman to scout however it doesn't specify "on foot only" so Razgor scouting chariot here I come!

I'm looking forward to a certain arcane item, BSlv5 range 18" all models carrying arcane items immediatly take d6 str4 hits and those items are destroyed. Could wreak havoc in magic heavy Elf lists, or humans as well tbh.

#6 spell seems interesting - 16+ to cast, if you cast it you get to put a Jabberslythe, giant or gorgon on any side table edge. While the beast is in play the shaman who cast it cannot cast or dispel any spells (but still generates dice) until the beast is dead. For each wound the monster takes the shaman needs a to take a T test (great shaman T5, regular T4) or also suffer a wound no armour saves. Cannot be dispelled following turns, canot be voluntarily taken away.

however the best spell is probably #4 - 10+ to cast all mounted units within 12" all mounts, so horses in cavalry, ridden monsters, chariot steeds etc. turn around and attack their rider. Auto hit, roll to wound, you get no save for being mounted or barded. Could screw around with Brets or High Elf cav. Not to mention you could force a Dragon to fight the vulnerably dragon mage...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Taureus on January 28, 2010, 05:29:12 AM
@ Magic Items: IMO, it would include any magic items, since with WoC, a BSB with a magical standard cannot take the Gift that grants a ward save and MR because the gift prohibits all magic items.

Having not seen the book myself, I can't comment on the possibility of a scouting chariot. Not a good idea against some armies, to be honest. Bu that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 28, 2010, 05:34:35 AM
Not sure need to check about that magic items things. I don't remember seeing any conditions of Gifts or Items. I do know that the Gorbull (doombull hero) says 50pts of Gifts and Magic items. I assume the other heros are the same.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Taureus on January 28, 2010, 05:50:30 AM
I meant about the Cygor/Ginat thingy getting the re-rolls.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 28, 2010, 06:01:10 AM
I meant about the Cygor/Ginat thingy getting the re-rolls.

No but see what I was thinking if a Unit contained a magic banner there is no "specific" target (hence I need to re-read the Cyclops rules) if it doesn't specify a character then technically you get re-rolls to hit on the unit as well
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Taureus on January 28, 2010, 06:04:32 AM
I understood what you meant. I just figure it's a catch-all for the beast to get re-rolls.

It will say one of two things:

Against a model bearing a magic item.

or

Against a unit bearing a magic item.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 28, 2010, 10:04:36 AM
Donuts, syrups and rosy tea. Meh...
When me and my mate play we drink proper stuff for warriors. We drink coffee! Black and strong! That is the proper thing to drink while gaming.

Seems we swedes better come down and teach you posh teadrinking brits some manners...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 28, 2010, 10:41:48 AM
We follow the rules as laid down by GW.
 
Warhammer is a beer and pretzels game.
 
 
Unfortunately, we can't seem to buy pretzels, so we compensate with more beer.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 28, 2010, 10:50:18 AM
Those are another thing that I don't understand. Pretzels. They are not nice, and I do not want them with beer.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 28, 2010, 10:55:14 AM
Pretzels are wonderful!

Especially with cucumber sandwiches...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 28, 2010, 10:55:45 AM
And pumbagels!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 28, 2010, 10:59:34 AM
What about pretzels with cucumber in them?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 28, 2010, 11:11:41 AM
It's a multimillion making idea!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 28, 2010, 11:40:42 AM
Beis, I think the magic is so high to cast it is pointless to try, untill the editions change and everyone is in the same boat.

That last spell seems a bit pointless. If the monster dies, so does the shaman, basically.  I suppose you could use it near the end and get it into combat quickly.

Donuts, syrups and rosy tea. Meh...
When me and my mate play we drink proper stuff for warriors. We drink coffee! Black and strong! That is the proper thing to drink while gaming.

Seems we swedes better come down and teach you posh teadrinking brits some manners...
CLEARLY the manliest thing to drink while gaming is beer.

Those big softer cooked pretzels are nice, those crappy little crisp like ones arent great.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 28, 2010, 11:59:11 AM
Yes, the scouting chariot is a much spoken of thing.  The army ideas include a jabberwock and a unit of harpies as support for him.  They can all hit on turn turn without difficulty.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 28, 2010, 01:21:40 PM
Those big softer cooked pretzels are nice, those crappy little crisp like ones arent great.

Oh I forgot the big soft ones. They are so good.... especially with the big chunks of salt on or some honey mustard dip...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 28, 2010, 01:26:31 PM
Finlay - it can work in certain situations not to mentionit does give you a "free" Rare. Also a Bray Shaman can cast it and most of the big nasties only have 6 wounds so statistically only 1 wound, only 1-2 for a regular Shaman. Not to mention powerstones can easily cast it.

I'd scout the Shaman, cast #6 get a Gorgon on your opponents table edge, Multi charge with the Chariot and Gorgon - enemy is going to get rolled up quick smart.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 28, 2010, 03:06:17 PM
If you can really have a scouting chariot, then that is lame.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on January 28, 2010, 03:13:42 PM
Scouting chariots are indeed lame, Rufus! If anyone should have such, it should be Tomb kings. :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Walt von Ark on January 28, 2010, 03:37:52 PM
maybe it's allready discussed, but i don't rally feel like going through 75 pages of ehh... conversation
But the alleged herd stone? Is it in the new book or was it just a rumour?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 28, 2010, 04:40:16 PM
Nobody has mentioned it in pages and pages so I'm gonna assume it was a rumour.

I think with all the big monsters and big monster chariots, there's probably not room...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 28, 2010, 04:53:37 PM
Nothing that  I can remember.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: jullevi on January 28, 2010, 06:34:07 PM
Herdstone is a magical item that includes placing a "suitable terrain piece". Can't remember what it actually does, though.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Taureus on January 28, 2010, 09:43:52 PM
Herdstone is a magical item that includes placing a "suitable terrain piece". Can't remember what it actually does, though.

If I recall, it grants casting within 6 inches a +1 bonus...

It's setup after deployment as well (maybe)?.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 28, 2010, 09:46:42 PM
It gives shaman within 6" a free power dice.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 28, 2010, 10:55:12 PM
Actually, a scouting chariot would be rubbish anyway, due to its size and the fact that it can't move through difficult terrain without taking damage.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: shavixmir on January 28, 2010, 11:07:35 PM
Actually, a scouting chariot would be rubbish anyway, due to its size and the fact that it can't move through difficult terrain without taking damage.
Unless it had big bouncy tires, 550 bhp and Jeremy Clarkson cackling in the background.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Von Breden on January 29, 2010, 12:16:20 AM
Actually, a scouting chariot would be rubbish anyway, due to its size and the fact that it can't move through difficult terrain without taking damage.
Unless it had big bouncy tires, 550 bhp and Jeremy Clarkson cackling in the background.
Your argument is irrelevant since it can just as well be said about every single thing.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 29, 2010, 12:21:46 AM
Jeremy clarkson makes things worse not better.
I hate him so much!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 29, 2010, 12:29:56 AM
Top Gear is the absolute best.

And any more posts from this point on that do not pertain to Beastmen and their models will be deleted.  This isn't the back table guys.  We can rip into the models and such, but no more frivalty (well relative frivalty anyway).

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 29, 2010, 12:36:28 AM
So anyway:

You can't really have a scouting chariot, surely?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 29, 2010, 12:39:04 AM
(is frivalty the same as frivolity)

15 pt item which lets shamans scout, and doesnt say "foot only"
Shamans can go in chariots.

It's definitely a bit dodgy, and clearly not what the writer intended. But...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 29, 2010, 12:41:32 AM
Shamans can take an item called "Skin of Man"

Skin of man says "Shaman gains scout."

The scout rule does not descriminate the mount or type of model which is allowed to scout, only that it has the scout rule.

The Skin of Man item does not say the shaman with the item can have a mount, in this case either a chariot or razorgor chariot.

So yes, you can scout a shaman in a chariot with skin of man if you want to dump 200 points for a scouting chariot.

How is it not what the writer intended and who are you to determine that?  This is the same list that allows scouting harpies.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 29, 2010, 12:42:01 AM
It must be a mistake. There aren't even any scouting cavalry things in the game, as far as I know. Deliberately allowing a chariot to scout would be weird.

Unless it's a 40K drop-chariot or something.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 29, 2010, 12:45:18 AM
I imagine he digs a hole before the battle and covers the chariot over with leaves and poop.

Either way, it isn't that powerful.  Scouting is about the worst movement rule in the game.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 29, 2010, 12:47:45 AM
I didn't say it was powerful. I said it was a bizarre thing to do, and thus probably not intentional.

Aren't you defensive today!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Taureus on January 29, 2010, 12:50:36 AM
I imagine he digs a hole before the battle and covers the chariot over with leaves and poop.

Either way, it isn't that powerful.  Scouting is about the worst movement rule in the game.

Phil

Aside from the fear-factor (oh shit there's a chariot 10 inches away) of it, it's easily dealt with for the most part.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 29, 2010, 12:53:02 AM
I didn't say it was powerful. I said it was a bizarre thing to do, and thus probably not intentional.

Aren't you defensive today!

Ha!  Not really, I just don't find it that strange.  There are other ways to get a unit into a scout position than belly crawl! :D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 29, 2010, 12:53:12 AM
I didn't say it was powerful. I said it was a bizarre thing to do, and thus probably not intentional.

Aren't you defensive today!

How can you say it wasn't intentional? You have no idea what the intention was! (this is the you figuratively not specifically you- Rufus) One reason I hate RAI arguements is that you weren't anywhere near the guys writing and hence any RAI rulings are what "you" as a player intends or interprets not nesecarily anything near what the actual rule was intended for.

Also depending on terrain and so on it's quite possibly to deploy a Chariot in scout as long as its 10" away and out of LOS then there is nothing wrong with it, you don't have to deploy IN a forest.

Not to mention you can combine the -1 to hit Chaos Gift with Scout, deploy in a forest and bombard enemy warmachines, shooters with the 5d6 str1 spell (also take the re-roll failed hits item). You're almost impossible to hit while hurting all your opponents auxillery units.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on January 29, 2010, 12:55:04 AM
Maybe the shaman hides in the woods, and quickly makes a chariot when he sees the battle lines being drawn up?

I definitely plan on using a scouting shaman on his own thoughm, should be cool. And that item which increases the cover.
I'm looking forward to the new book now, I'm going home in mid february, so plan to fetch all my beastmen models. I might only need to buy a character and a box of Minos to get to 1500.

I hope noone keeps on with the anti RAI arguments, or I might have to bring up the Valkyrie incident.

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on January 29, 2010, 12:56:36 AM
It was clearly intended that the passengers be unable to disembark.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 29, 2010, 12:57:22 AM
Quote from: PhillyT
There are other ways to get a unit into a scout position than belly crawl!

Sure, but it's always just been infantry models in the past. If the next wood elf book comes out with scouting cavalry, well, that's another matter.

Maybe a scouting steam tank in the next Empire book?


How can you say it wasn't intentional?

Like I said, it's unprecedented, and thus probably a mistake.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 29, 2010, 12:59:09 AM
The scouting harpies are sort of unprecedented.  As in they have never been seen.

The scout rule makes no exceptions for the type of unit which has the ability, only that it has scout.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 29, 2010, 01:00:55 AM
Not really the same. It's easier to catch scouting herpes.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 29, 2010, 01:14:26 AM
Quote from: PhillyT
There are other ways to get a unit into a scout position than belly crawl!

Sure, but it's always just been infantry models in the past. If the next wood elf book comes out with scouting cavalry, well, that's another matter.

Maybe a scouting steam tank in the next Empire book?


How can you say it wasn't intentional?

Like I said, it's unprecedented, and thus probably a mistake.

Just cause it's unprecedented doesn't make it a mistake... TBH though I think there are some other cool combinations.

I'm trying to decide what I'd take over Razagor units and Minotaur units. Both seem pretty decent and both have very similiar applications. I want this book!

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on January 29, 2010, 07:00:36 AM
Not really the same. It's easier to catch scouting herpes.

Really? Easy to respond to a unit that by the end of their first turn is behind your lines? You may not even have had a turn yet, and because scouts are placed after everything else, you could be royally screwed.

Scouting flyers has to be the worst concept implemented. Its almost the same effect as flying high - their threat range would be MASSIVE.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Justnorth on January 29, 2010, 07:42:42 AM
Having just seen the stats for the Minotaurs, I can see they will be a favourable option on the battlefield, I guess they needed something to boost the sales of those hideously shabby plastic sculpts... Gakkk !!!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Gneisenau on January 29, 2010, 10:09:39 AM
Not really the same. It's easier to catch scouting herpes.

And I thought you were above silly puns... :biggriin:



Edit: I tend to agree with Warlord here. The only other scouting flying unit I can think of is a vampire, and that one isn't US5.

Have the Beastmen any means to panic units on turn one? Some evil spells, perhaps?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 29, 2010, 10:35:46 AM
Really? Easy to respond to a unit that by the end of their first turn is behind your lines? You may not even have had a turn yet, and because scouts are placed after everything else, you could be royally screwed.

Sorry, but I only said that to make the appalling pun possible.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 29, 2010, 11:47:10 AM
Have the Beastmen any means to panic units on turn one? Some evil spells, perhaps?

Some spells and a spear that acts like a bolt thrower.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 29, 2010, 11:53:48 AM
Also there was scouting cavalry already...those wargs in the Sylvania list.

But anyhow I think the harpies are not worse than waywatchers or chameleon skinks.

The chariot though....well with the shaman it is US 5 and therefore negates ranks having one of them parked on a flank pointing towards the centre is quite nasty.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 29, 2010, 11:59:54 AM
It's just so expensive though!  I can't really see myself using it.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 29, 2010, 12:32:01 PM
Also there was scouting cavalry already...those wargs in the Sylvania list.

So there were!

Not really cavalry though, since they didn't have riders. Even though they count as cavalry. Also, that wasn't a real list.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 29, 2010, 01:23:38 PM
I liked it as it had zombies with halberds! Oh how I already planned to zombify all my halberdiers rotting...öh dusting in my boxes.

Well 200 points for a scouting chariot with shaman on top of it ....not bad you could move out of cover and try the beasty movement spell to propell it into a flank of a unit if the run it could cause mass panic if they stay you overrun in the next unit. Not bad. To let it scout it only costs 15 additional points so it isn´t that expensive the chariot itself is quite juice (as far as I know).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 29, 2010, 06:51:25 PM
Have the Beastmen any means to panic units on turn one? Some evil spells, perhaps?

Some spells and a spear that acts like a bolt thrower.

Phil

a spear that has no specification as to whether it ever returns to you once thrown...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 29, 2010, 07:49:46 PM
Quote from: Fandir Nightshade
I liked it as it had zombies with halberds!

Those grave marker things made it annoying to play against. Still not as obnoxious as the demon or high elf list from the same book though.


a spear that has no specification as to whether it ever returns to you once thrown...

So by your earlier logic, presumably, it doesn't come back. And that was intentional.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 29, 2010, 08:44:25 PM
They already have a mechanic for single use items.  They don't specify any other thrown weapon as being one shot only.  Nobody could have honestly made the claim it was one use only yet.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Taureus on January 30, 2010, 01:26:18 AM
They already have a mechanic for single use weapons.  They don't specify any other thrown weapon as being one shot only.  Nobody could have honestly made the claim it was one use only yet.

Phil

Fixed that.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 30, 2010, 01:36:00 AM
They already have a mechanic for single use items.  They don't specify any other thrown weapon as being one shot only.  Nobody could have honestly made the claim it was one use only yet.

Phil

I've already had someone try to argue it doesn't come back and it's one- use only. The best arguement against that thought is it doesn't say "One Use Only" so as it doesn't exclude multiple firing it means it "includes" firing every turn.

Although it still amuses me.

And Rufus- yes, I believe an FAQ is alredy required on the book (although let me reread it over the next week to make sure as it may just have been my confusion).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 30, 2010, 01:43:42 AM
Does the dwarf rune which allows the weapon to be thrown say it comes back?

I think not.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 30, 2010, 02:39:19 AM
and we all accept it just floats back into the hand of the weilder?

Philly i've never been on to argue RAI- i think RAI is silly. But it wouldn't hurt to be a little clearer in their writing (but lets not get into that).

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 30, 2010, 10:46:23 AM
On the subject of scouting harpies and chariot: Is i really worth the points? Both do not want to scout within a wood, the chariot doesn't even want to be in terrain. That limits the possible places to put them near the enemy.
In our games (that feature 5 terrain pieces) it is often impossible to place even a regular unit of scouts near the enemy lines, hiding a chariot behind terrain in a way that it can not be seen will only rarely be possible. The idea is fun though...
How much does the scout upgrade for the harpies cost? They do not need to get to close to the enemy, 6'' into the field can be enough to get behind the enmy lines in turn one. If it's only 2 points per model this might really be good.
Did i mention i already got that awesome tyranid gargoyle box fo conversions?


Another point i am unsure about are the rares. So many points that are so vulnerable to shooting! The jabberwock will probably see play, being a flier it can get into combats quick enough or hide behind terrain. But the others? That's five naked minotaurs or four with greatweapons and banner. Much more resilent and hardhitting too!
Especially the Cygor seems too expensive. Sure, he has nice special abilities, but is it worth 275 points? His antimagic ability is nice against some armies, others will be nearly unaffected. The enemy still has all his PD, maybe he will use them for fewer spells, but those will be harder to dispel...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 30, 2010, 11:06:16 AM
So is there really no model for the jabberwock or gorgon?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 30, 2010, 11:07:24 AM
No.
 
But then again, there is none for the War altar either....
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on January 30, 2010, 11:08:21 AM
There was at least an old model they re-released.

They must want people to buy monsters from other companies.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 30, 2010, 12:07:25 PM
SO I played against the New Beastmen tonight.

I was asked to play my tourney list (was taking on the Best General 0 sportsmanship guy from the last tourney here).

His list:

Doombull - greatweapon, armour piercing gift, scaly skin gift, that helm, heavy armour, shield
Gorbull - some stuff, greatweapon
Gor hero - chariot, BSB, some gift, banner -1AS for all enemy units in 6"
lv1 shaman with 2xDS

3x8 ungor skirmish
4x5 hounds
1 unit of 8 scouting harpies
21 beastigor with full command
4 mino's with greatweapons
2 tuskgor chariots
2 Jabberslythes

was quite nasty. The jabberslythe magic thing was responsible for the loose of an entire unit of knights, 2 mages, 2 greatcannons (the 3rd blew itself up) and a few bits and bobs. I manage to take one out with a steamtank (trying to doge the 6- eventually 8 attacks str8 mino lord).

I clawed back abit (the archlector being a REAL MAN took on the hero chariot, mino unit and bestigor alone and actually won combat by 1 and all 3 broke, unfortunately I had to choose which direction I had to go (both flanks and front in contact) I did run down the betigor which was funny! Course the archlector was run over by one of the other chariots the next turn but thats beside the point he stared that chariot down like a champ.

there was some funk moving which i laughed at (2 can play that game).

He bought his warhounds in single file, turned etc. so got them 10 or so inches onto the table - this way they would be out of grape shot range of my cannon and not showing a flank.

I sorted the move out quick smart by turn 90degs with a unit of knights and shifting 4 inches forward so I could flip my cannon around and into cover of the knights. I was chuffed at myself =P course the cannon misfired and blew up the next turn... :icon_rolleyes:

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 30, 2010, 05:36:44 PM
So, did he use the ambush rule? In which units were the characters? (I guess Doombull in beasties, Gorbull in Minos)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 30, 2010, 09:14:16 PM
This new beasts army is gonna take a lot of getting used to...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 30, 2010, 10:34:53 PM
and we all accept it just floats back into the hand of the weilder?

Philly i've never been on to argue RAI- i think RAI is silly. But it wouldn't hurt to be a little clearer in their writing (but lets not get into that).

Is a throwing axe or javalin single use?  Do you define how many arrows come with an archer?  There is nothing to assume something is single use if it isn't explicit.  It is a mechanism that exists, one which they make use of.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on January 31, 2010, 11:48:56 AM
I always thought throwing weapons were multi use... and that maybe the wielder just had more of them stashed in his loin cloth...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on January 31, 2010, 12:07:42 PM

Both mino characters in Bestigor, they ended up charging a stank (they were in range but not the bestigor) and I'd used a solo knight to pull the characters away from my line.

The gorbull impaled itself on the steam tank.

He ambushed 1 unit of skirmish ungor and 2 hound units. all 3 came directly behind my warmachines (one deployed on the left, one on the right, one from the back). I managed to magic most or outmanourve so the ambush didn't really work but it did grab my attention .

Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on January 31, 2010, 01:17:13 PM
The gorbull impaled itself on the steam tank.

Huh, gotta remember this. Minos do impact hits now. Good against everything except a steam tank!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Union General on January 31, 2010, 08:31:38 PM
The gorbull impaled itself on the steam tank.

Huh, gotta remember this. Minos do impact hits now. Good against everything except a steam tank!

Impact hits... Making Steam Tank vs. Steam Tank combat all the more bizarre...  :icon_eek:

-The General
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on January 31, 2010, 10:05:02 PM
Yeah, its like the Ogres and their suicide collision!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 01, 2010, 01:14:15 AM
Yeah, its like the Ogres and their suicide collision!

Phil

It was a little funny to watch. Too bad I didn't take the Doombull down the same way, would have changed the game!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 01, 2010, 11:42:14 AM
I'm surprised the guys tried it.  HE must not have remembered?

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 01, 2010, 12:53:31 PM
Nah it was a tatical choice as the alternative was charging with the beatigor at a lone knight that would have pulled them all away for at least 2 turns

Was reading the special characters tonight they look great not over powered but offer some dun buffs and reasonably priced...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on February 01, 2010, 03:05:09 PM
Beasts pay 20 points for a sword of might! Ripoff!  ::heretic::
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 02, 2010, 03:02:51 AM
Why is that?  O&G pay 10.

:D

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Union General on February 02, 2010, 03:03:24 AM
Yeah, its like the Ogres and their suicide collision!

Phil

Hmm... Kamikaze Ogres...

-The General
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 02, 2010, 03:24:05 AM
I have watched the poor boys pile into the side of the stank and turn into intestinal explosions.  Like a frog getting run over by a bike.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 02, 2010, 03:46:46 AM
you know i lost a stank to Ogres once...

40 gnoblars getting Stand and shoot...stopped that stank in it's tracks (from the next turn on. I still rolled over 14 of the blighters).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 02, 2010, 04:10:32 PM
So I'm not sure if this should be in the beasts or dark elf thread. Eitherway I took on 2 of the Hong Kong locals tonight with my delves and they used the new beastmen.

Dreadlord- caledors bane, armour of eternal servitude, ring of hotek, heavy armour, shield, sea dragon cloak
Lv2 mage - dark star cloak, dispell scroll
Lv2 mage - powerstone, dispell scroll
Assassin - extra handweapon, manbane, rending stars - in shades

2x10 bowmen
10 corsairs with handbows
6 dark riders - with rxbows, herald, musician

6 COK with standard of slaughter,FC
7 Shades, Great weapons
15 black Guard with FC and ASF banner

2x Hydras.

Yes this is a nasty nasty nasty list, t'was designed this way mostly because I was playing true blue hong kong gamers and as a trial for a potential tourney list (probably swap the corsairs for a 3rd bowmen unit)

These guys used the same army, Terence (my 2nd opponent) used it simply to prove to Sunny (my first) that it wasn't 100% crap.

BeastLord - 1st game with the scaly skin, helm, greatweapon. 2nd game with the re-roll primal fury
Lv2 mage - 2xDS
Lv1 mage- 2xDS
Lv1 mage- 2xDS

2x25 Gor with FC
2x10 ungor skirmish
15 hounds (first game in 1 unit, 2nd game in 3 units)
2x8 harpies (1 unit scout)
2x4 mino with greatweapons (not going to lie these guys are bloody scary, shame they die to massed bow fire)
4 Tuskgor Chariots
Giant.

Now I don't view this as a crazy hard list but you may view it differently. As my mate said, "when talking about hong kong gamers anything goes"

Anyway.

Game 1 againt Sunny - he conceeded turn 3. I wiped him off the table in fact I was more upset at the result then he was because I felt like A) a douche B) cheated from a game C) embarressed for the guy who came 1st in the last tourney (with daemons). I just blew his army to shreds. I'm naming one of my crossbow units the Giant Slayers after they took the beast down with a single volley.

Game 2 was against Terrence, IMHO a far far better player. He used Beast magic instead of Beastmen magic which was a better choice. 1 reason I beat sunny was I let him move all his units d6 inches turn 1 which put many of his units in charge range of my stuff (COK, Hydras etc).

this was a far harder game and frankly I was getting my arse handed turns 1-2. Thankfully 3 units stepped up to the plate. The Giant Slayers (see above) which took a charge by some harpies, the slayers had amage in the unit, beat the harpies, overran into a unit of hounds, beat the hounds, overran into a unit of Minotaurs, was charged by the giant, survived a round of combat and killed 1 of the minos and did 2 wounds on teh giant before falling back. Eventually died to a man but held up the mino unit for 3 turns. Not a bad effort for a missile trooper.

On my far left (terence deployed in a refused flank and left 1 harpy, 1 ambushing ungor, 1 hound and 1 chariot on my right, everything else was deployed 22" on the left side of the table. Facing this I had my dark riders (which took out the hounds but was killed by the chariot). The archers spent 3 turns holding that flank alone, causing the harpies to scatter, wounding the chariot and then charging the ambushing ungor and clearing that table quater.

The man of this match however had to be the Dragon lord. He went BALLISTIC this game, totally unstoppable - in fact while incredibly nasty he is incredibly fun to play. Turn 1 a unit of 25 gor ambushed my righ flank and threatened to steam role my line (I gave both 1st turns to the beast players). The dragon repositions, breathed 5 to death causing the unit to flee. The beasts rallied so I charged with 9 attacks I got 9 kills, ran the unit down, ran a unit of hounds down (fled due to broken combat) ran into a unit of 4 mino. Kill 2 of the 3 in base contact, ran them down. Turned around flamed the other Gor unit (holding the beast lord and 3 mages) before charging the next turn, killing the beastlord with 6CR, broke the unit and ran them down! Not bad for 5 turns work!

Ths assassin was good as well, accoutning for 1 giant, 3 chariots. Black Guard didn't do anything special in either game really, wondering if I should keep this unit or not.

Anyway. So beast aren't a match for cheesed out Delves apparently (although I like tothink I outplayed the guys as well). But the beast list is certainly fun.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: The newbie on February 02, 2010, 05:33:34 PM
The Giant Slayers (see above) which took a charge by some harpies, the slayers had amage in the unit, beat the harpies, overran into a unit of hounds

You overan after being charged or you overan after charging? If it was the first, you shouldn't have.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on February 02, 2010, 06:42:19 PM
You overan after being charged or you overan after charging? If it was the first, you shouldn't have.

Unless he won combat, and they pursued with super short legs that runs down flying chicks...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 02, 2010, 09:26:13 PM
He took a garbage list, so it isn't too surprising about the ending.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 03, 2010, 12:45:29 AM
The giant slayers won combat, pursued *caught the harpies*, running into the hounds, killed 4, pursued *ran the hounds down* ran into the mino's was then charged by the giant.

I can't decide if the list was crappy or not Philly. 4 Chariots? Lots of spam magic and strong magic defence, I didn't get a spell in for most of the 2nd game - 2 scrolls and all dice on 1 spell every round. and thats not assuming my 2 miscasts.

The Gor infantry are about the only thing i'd change, I wouldn't have bothered, 1 unit of bestigor and hte other unit I would have made into some big nasties. Giant should have been something nastier as well like a Jabberslythe.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 03, 2010, 02:50:03 AM
My 2250 point list has 8 chariots, 2 jabberwocky, 2 units of minotaur, and a horde of about 80 ungor in various confirmations with shortbows.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 03, 2010, 03:40:56 AM
My 2250 point list has 8 chariots, 2 jabberwocky, 2 units of minotaur, and a horde of about 80 ungor in various confirmations with shortbows.

sounds fun!  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on February 03, 2010, 07:30:29 AM
The list really isn't the strongest. Sure, the magic defense is high, but everything else?
25 Gors in ambush CAN be nice if they come on the right side, but too expensive to gamble on this. Three shamen, but two are LVL1? For 70 points more he would actually have a decent magic phase to build pressure. Especially if he foregoes two scrolls and takes a herdstone or hagtree fetish instead. and hiding three shamen in one unit of gors is risky too.
Next a giant...we all know how good this guy is against any army with  boltthrowers or small arms fire.
Two units of harpies...i wouldn't do it, but has its merits. Leaves the army with only two hardhitting specials though.
Scrapping one unit of gors would free up enough points to upgrade the mages and take a jabberwock/ghorgon instead of the giant. If there are still points left one might take two pumbas instead of one unit of harpies. Oh, and make the ungors 4x5.
I don't know if that list is capable to beat your nasty DE, but it is a lot stronger than the oneyou played against.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Aldaris on February 03, 2010, 09:33:39 AM
My 2250 point list has 8 chariots, 2 jabberwocky, 2 units of minotaur, and a horde of about 80 ungor in various confirmations with shortbows.
So... you are moving to Hong Kong?





 :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 03, 2010, 10:43:14 AM
Indeed, it do looks as if Philly is moving to Hong Kong. Have you applied for visa yet, Philly?  :icon_razz:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 03, 2010, 10:53:50 AM

New expression :Battle "Hong Kong style"
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Midaski on February 03, 2010, 11:04:25 AM
Phooey ............  :engel:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 03, 2010, 11:25:39 AM
Oh lord

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW54W9y6-eU
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 03, 2010, 11:28:30 AM
Sun Tzu said "Hong Kong Gamers are 5 ft 2 and beat to pulp all other gamers."
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 03, 2010, 11:30:05 AM
"Usually due to outnumbering them 502 to 1, and attacking when the enemy is asleep"

 :roll:

Lets just make a backtable thread about Hong Kong gamers shall we?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 03, 2010, 11:54:03 AM
The list really isn't the strongest. Sure, the magic defense is high, but everything else?
25 Gors in ambush CAN be nice if they come on the right side, but too expensive to gamble on this. Three shamen, but two are LVL1? For 70 points more he would actually have a decent magic phase to build pressure. Especially if he foregoes two scrolls and takes a herdstone or hagtree fetish instead. and hiding three shamen in one unit of gors is risky too.

My thoughts exactly, though I would have just dropped two scrolls and pinched a point here and there for the other 2 levels.  And if you are really planing on ambushing, you need numbers.  Piles of numbers.  The lists I have been making have 5 - 6 ambushers.

Quote
Next a giant...we all know how good this guy is against any army with  boltthrowers or small arms fire.
Two units of harpies...i wouldn't do it, but has its merits. Leaves the army with only two hardhitting specials though.

No reason to take giants now, not when the ghorgon is so goo and only 65 points more.

And my list is hard, but not more so than my old lists.  And not really compared to any list with the audacity to drop two hydra.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on February 03, 2010, 12:04:12 PM
Does anybody know if ungor raiders can take a musician? That would be really awesome. Which unit sizes would you run for ambushind ungor raiders? The minimum 5 are cheap, but can not attack anything except warmachines i'd say. Maybe a rear attack on crossbowmen, but not more.
10 on the other hand get too expensive imo.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Finlay on February 03, 2010, 12:08:11 PM
My 2250 point list has 8 chariots, 2 jabberwocky, 2 units of minotaur, and a horde of about 80 ungor in various confirmations with shortbows.
So... you are moving to Hong Kong?





 :engel:
Phil has always made tough lists.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 03, 2010, 12:08:55 PM
Yes, he's an infamous powergamer.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 03, 2010, 12:12:54 PM
yes ungor archers can take a musician and champion.

TBH I've been very unimpressed with them in the 3 games I've played against the new beasts. I do like the idea of using them as a made bunker but as ambushes ld6... unless you're lucky enough to drop behind a no move and shoot unit you just get blown to shite and run off the table.

That said I haven't played a static army against them so against a gunline or infantry based list things may be different.

I think chariots can ambush (can't remember) if this is so then I would definetly put 2 in ambush at least. Very little can take a chariot out in 1 turn (and if you can take out a flanking chariot in 1 turn then you can probably take it out if it was deployed in the front anyway).

I'm looking forward to facing the Razagor Cav unit (looks very very good).
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on February 03, 2010, 02:39:21 PM
Pretty sure chariots can not ambush, :ph34r: that would be too nasty! Minos from the front and chariots from the side/back could kill nearly anything.

Ungor raiders with music can be good, makes it much safer to attack and win against small stuff in the backfield.
And yes, they are quickly shot into panic and run of the board, but that means, that the shooting unit shoots at 30-40 points and not at your hitters, which is good. AND they have to turn around to do so (getting -1 to hit) and have to turn back next round getting another round of -1 to hit.

I see it this way: They are one of the cheapest units available, to deal with them the opponent has to use troops worth far more than the ungors. Either to shoot them, which is OK as explained above. Or he has to actually dedicate melee troops to kill them:
Real units worth 100 points. Fine try to get me!
Small units like hounds, detachments ect. Fine less diverters preventing my hitters from reaching the juicy stuff!
Or he ignores them. Also fine, they march block, take out war machines, threaten lone mages, take shots at soft stuff and (very important i think!) lay crossfire to prevent flee reactions by the opponent and to catch stuff the minos broke.

Sure, i haven't tried them yet, but i will field ambushing ungors for sure! I will also try 10-12 ranked with music. In ambush this could be nice and still cheap, problem is what to do with the unit that does not ambush...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 03, 2010, 03:12:00 PM
character bunker, sit back and hold/contest a table quater?
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Shadowlord on February 03, 2010, 07:06:19 PM
Yes, he's an infamous powergamer.

Dang it! I was gonna say that.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 03, 2010, 10:51:30 PM
I love me powergaming!!!!1!~`!!

Seriously though, ungor skirmishers are fantastic in groups of 5.  They don't need, nor should they be expected to, hit anything alone.  They attack from behind or the flank, take soft points, and park while the hard stuff blows up and hits from the front.  If something flees through them, they die.

And no, chariots cannot ambush.  Apparently, hounds can't anymore either, but I haven't seen the rules.  Someone said it on Herdstone.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on February 04, 2010, 12:27:43 AM
Bah! That'd be sad, ambushing hounds are one of the staples of my army and were rightly feared by any who I played due to my always passing at least one of their ld tests, if not both every game.

And I always did it because for so few points, it's not even like I miss them elsewhere.

I am liking the sound of ungor skirmishers though. Being skirmished, I was always going to have some, they will have to be the new annoyance units of choice.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 04, 2010, 01:09:20 AM
pretty sure hounds can ambush, at least they did against me...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 04, 2010, 01:10:51 AM
That a player in your community ambushed hounds merely means he ambushed hounds, it doesn't mean he was actually playing by the rules.

It is Hong Kong after all.  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 04, 2010, 01:21:25 AM
That a player in your community ambushed hounds merely means he ambushed hounds, it doesn't mean he was actually playing by the rules.

It is Hong Kong after all.  :icon_lol:

and it was thomas, who is a known cheat (he used that nurgle only banner on a slaaneshi character, which oddly enough was in a Khorne Knight unit...)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 04, 2010, 02:15:05 AM
Like I said, first thing I heard about it was yesterday, someone mentioned that hounds counldn't ambush.  I won't have my book til Friday night, so can't say for sure.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 04, 2010, 03:34:50 AM
Like I said, first thing I heard about it was yesterday, someone mentioned that hounds counldn't ambush.  I won't have my book til Friday night, so can't say for sure.

Phil

seems odd that the pack hounds won't be able to flank
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on February 04, 2010, 07:09:45 AM
@PhillyT:  Units of 5 ungor to the back of a unit can well result in one ungor dying. Then they are no more US 5 and thus don't give the rear bonus. That's why i am considering slightly larger units of 6-7.
On the other it can be questioned if they should attack at all. They won't reliably make any kills and can easily loose two of their own thus negating the benefit of the rear attack.
Minos should be able to break most things that could be wounded by ungor anyways, so they can well wait and lay crossfire.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 04, 2010, 11:31:47 AM
I didn't mean rear charging, I meant parking them behind units to destroy them when they flee the minotaur, who won't be catching anything with only a 1d6 pursuit!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on February 04, 2010, 12:38:17 PM
Yup, that's what they will be good at. I just wondered, because you wrote "will attack from the flank or rear"
I am currently thinking if a beastlord on razorchariot is a too big target to be viable. A beastlord only makes sense in Gors or Bestigors and both units are suboptimal. So i am thinking of putting him on a razorchariot. But that will be close to 400 points! Big target for warmachines...
But if the opponent has no hill he can be easily screened by ungors and warmachines should be under attack by turn three anyways. (By turn three the BL will be in combat, too. But being the beast he is, he will run down something and stand in the open afterwards.)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 04, 2010, 05:58:49 PM
I was thinking of the razorgor chariot too, but have swapped to a normal chariot.  The extra 65 points really does drive them way to high pointwise, but his almost guaranteed rerolls makes those 4 S6 attacks very tempting...

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: McKnight on February 04, 2010, 09:53:56 PM
Seriously, if you get a razorgor chariot then you MUST make a Timon model to ride it  :-D
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 04, 2010, 10:04:52 PM
Ha!  That would be funny!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on February 05, 2010, 07:21:29 AM
But the razorchariot has many advantages. Not only the S6 attacks, but fearcausing (and thus fear immunity) and T5 instead of T4 (which is huge imo)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 05, 2010, 08:45:13 AM
But the razorchariot has many advantages. Not only the S6 attacks, but fearcausing (and thus fear immunity) and T5 instead of T4 (which is huge imo)

 :engel: unless you come up against a dark elf assassin with manbane and rending stars...str7 all the way baby!

tbh I'd go for Razagor cav, all the perks of the chariot (cause fear, str6 etc) aginst 5 wide you can get 3-4 in contact so 12-16 attacks (off memory they have 4 each) and they can't be auto killed and with 3 wounds t5 each it will take some concentrated firepower to take them down (letting your 2nd unit and 2 units of Mino's to run clear!!)
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 05, 2010, 11:47:06 AM
But the razorchariot has many advantages. Not only the S6 attacks, but fearcausing (and thus fear immunity) and T5 instead of T4 (which is huge imo)

If we are talking about a character mount, it will be US5 already.  The fear is nice though.

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on February 05, 2010, 12:09:16 PM
Toughness, not unitstrenght.
Tusker chariots have only T4 and can thus be wounded by stuff like crossbows and even bows. The razorchariot has T5 and will take fewer wounds from small arms. (If it doesn't discourage them completely and they fire on minos instead...)

In unrelated news: i just got my new models and army book! The ungors are so cool! I already liked the 6th ed. ones, but the new ones are much finer sculpted. especially like the heads.

And hounds can not ambush, it is true.  :icon_confused:
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on February 05, 2010, 02:17:12 PM
So are Razergor Chariots US5? Because that to me would be the kicker.
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Moxer on February 05, 2010, 03:09:32 PM
No, only when used as character mount. The Jabberslythe on the other hand is a US5 flying monster...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 05, 2010, 06:17:54 PM
Ah, the coming total abuse I see before me!
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: phillyt on February 06, 2010, 01:27:55 AM
Okay some observations.  I just got the book, the new minotaur, and some ungor.

1. The new Ungor are awesome.  Great sculpts.  To those who already have some, rip off those spears, because you will not want to pay 6 points for the model.  Leave them with their shields at 5.  Better yet, get the bow versions.

2.  The New minotaur are fantastic.  I saw some nice paints today and they were great.  I love mine and am really looking forward to painting them up for the bash.

3. Anyone who has seen my main giant knows it has four arms, hooves, and horns.  Whats the ghorgon got?  Four arms, hooves, and horns.  I was psychic apparantly.  It does not have Killing Blow for its normal attacks, only its swallow whole.

4. Moxer, the Razorgor chariots is US5.  5 Wounds.  Still not really my thing though.  I'll take normal chariots as mounts becuase they will be too much.

5.  Magic items are not too impressive, though there are perhaps the best banners I have ever seen for an army.  Not any given banner, just the fact that they are all really good.

6.  Who is taking a giant anymore?  Its 225 like the choas one.  50 more points gets you a Ghorgon, Jabberscyth, or a cygor.

7.  All of the special characters are balanced.  Meaning they suck compared to many of the ones currently in circulation :D

8.  The hunting spear is a thrown weapon with a range of 24" and only 50 points, so not really that bad.  The only thing is the best BS in the army is 3.

Some interesting things to look out for:

Doombulls will certainly be the cats ass of killy characters.  You can give one the twin axes of khorgor, the trollhide armor, and enhanced senses for 100 points.  He will run you 365 points but has 7 S6 rerollable attacks, a compounding A score, regneeration, and I6.  Plus d3 S6 impact hits.  He will chew through whole units without fail.  Another build has heavy armor, scaly skin, shield, sword of might, and the magic helmet.  The helmet lets you have a free attack whenever you pass an armor save and gives you another +1 AS.  He has a 0+.  And 6 S7 attacks.  Or you could give him any number of other, better ocmbinations.

The spell list is as advertised.  I would drop it for the beast school though.  More useful.

Chaos hounds continue to be useless.

Phil

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 06, 2010, 01:45:51 AM
One more thing:

The two new special character models are $39.99!?!?!?!?!??!  What the hell!

The place I bought my book had two of each and priced them at $30 because they couldn't justify the $39 price.  They are going to be direct only, so I guess thatst he reason.

Nice enough models, but get the damn Doombull instead!  Almost identical price!

Phil
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: jullevi on February 06, 2010, 12:58:59 PM
4. Moxer, the Razorgor chariots is US5.  5 Wounds.  Still not really my thing though.  I'll take normal chariots as mounts becuase they will be too much.

Aren't all chariots US4 unless ridden by character (and unless otherwise noted) ?

I ordered my Beastmen book from Maelstrom Games so it will take a while until I get my hands on it. I am not very impressed with the new miniatures and I am going to use 5th edition and older metals instead (my minotaur unit is from late eighties!!).  Although I did order a box of new Ungors out of interest, and I must admit that Razorgor is growing on me...
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Warlord on February 06, 2010, 01:22:28 PM
4. Moxer, the Razorgor chariots is US5.  5 Wounds.  Still not really my thing though.  I'll take normal chariots as mounts becuase they will be too much.

I hope so.

How many wounds do the various big nasties have? The Ghorgor? What hase size - small monster, large monster, giant or chariot?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 06, 2010, 02:16:22 PM
ghorgor is a mino hero so 40 or 50mm

Jabber has 5
not sure on the giant and cygor 5 or 6
gorgon has 6
Title: Re: Minotaurs (The Beasts are Back!!)
Post by: Siberius on February 06, 2010, 05:13:43 PM
(my minotaur unit is from late eighties!!). 

Aren't everyone's?  :-P

Certainly feels that way...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 06, 2010, 11:09:19 PM
I muffed the razorgor, not sure what I was thinking but yes all chariots have a US4.

The ghorbull is a minotaur hero on a 40mm.

The ghorgon and Cygor are giant types, so a 50mm x 75mm or just a 50mm square are perfect.  The jabber is a 50mm square. 

The new minos are so much better than the 16 metal minos I have.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 06, 2010, 11:38:54 PM
The new minos are so much better than the 16 metal minos I have.

How much bigger than a plastic Ogre?

Read that the models were so big, the game designers had to put 5 on the S profile.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 07, 2010, 11:31:42 AM
I also got my book on friday and sat down in the evening reading it whilst having a glass of mead. Funny how the cover of the book sports half naked (shaved?) beastmen and inside the book is all the old art of really furry beasts...
Overall the army list is nice. A bit of a pity that gors and bestigors are probably among the worst troops of the list, although according to all the fluff they make up the largest part of the brayherds.

My opinion on the units:

Gor: sadly much too expensive. With AHW they cost 8 points a piece! Hope that ranked infantry gets a boost in 8th ed. and makes them worthwile

Ungor: With a killy character they might actually be OK. Cheap enough to serve as shaman guard. I will also try to ambush these guys

Ungor raiders: Ambushing skirmishers with shortbows and M5 for 2 points less than an imperial archer? I already regret i only bought two boxes of these. Ld 6 is a drawback, but they are cheap enough not to care when they run off. Interestingly the raiders can have a musician.

Chariots: Core chariots are nice although they lost a but of punch.

Centigors:Very vulnerable to shooting. Sadly they lost move through woods. One of the worse special choices

Bestigor: Really, i do not know how this unit can make it's points back. The only thing they might beat are blocks of lowly infantry that cost half the points of the beasties. And even that is not reliably.

Minotaur: Lots of points on not so many wounds but if they get into combat they will rock! They won't catch anything, so you need to lay crossfire or combocharge wih something fast

Razorgor: Ld 6 is theri drawback, but near the general they can put up quite some hurt!

Razorchariot: Nasty thing. Expensive, but hard. You can mount a character on top which makes it a hammer of its own.

Harpies: This unit is known to be good. AND they can scout for +3 points. Especially good for generals that do not want to ambush.

Rare:
Giant + Spawn: Yea, you could take them because you still have the models...
Cygor: Sounds cool, but is too random in what it does to rectify the point cost. I might be wrong but i think he is the weakest of the three new rares.

Ghorgon: S6 T6 frenzied killing machine. Nasty

Jabberslythe: US5 flying terrorcauser with nice special rules. Some armies will fear this. OK in CC, but you need to take care of it.

All the new rares are ItP, Ghorgon and Cygor are Stubborn too

Characters are expensive! One can easily spend 1000 points on four characters. But they are probably worth their points.

Magic items are OK. No no-brainers like ring of hotek/dark elf pendant, but also only few really crappy ones. I agree with Philly, the banners are all nice. Downside is, that only the BSB and bestigors can have one...


@Philly: Are you willing to part with some of your metal minoaurs? How expensive would shiping from the US to Europe be? I stil disike the new plastic ones...

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 07, 2010, 12:25:57 PM
I also would be looking at acquiring some of the old metal minotaurs.

Probably only 4 with 2 hand weapons...

----

Nice overview Moxer. Not sure about the Cygor being quite as bad as you suggest - though the Ghorgon is definietly more relaible and killy.

I am also quite disappointed with the Gors and Bestigors. I was hoping they made them as choices more flexible - and surely Bestigor aren't that great they should be in special.

I was annoyed they didn't make a basic Centigor hero - and the removal of move through woods definitely sucks.

Razagor units may be the go actually - despite the models.

Fluff-wise, I really DON'T like how they have made the Beastmen focus purely on the Empire-based ones. I liked the idea of Tiger headed beastmen from Ind and Cathay, etc...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 07, 2010, 12:51:52 PM
The razorgor really is a PR botch. It has only one bulging comic eye! The eye on the other side is small and menacing. Had GW photographed the model from the other side the model wouldn't be called pumbagor by now. Really, the other side looks pretty good.
Won't shell out 22,50 Euro for that thing though. If it were a Vargulf-like monster maybe, but not when i need multiples of these.

Philly, 39$ for the SC can't be true. They both cost 15,50 Euro here. (Gor are 19,50, Minotaur 35,00 for comparison)

The cygor has what i call the Hellcannon problem: He is good at different things and thus costed high. But he can not do it all at the same time, making him less effective for his points.

He is a stonethrower. That's nice. However, stonethrowers are quite unreliable when it comes to actually hitting something. On the plus side he can move and thus get favourable shots. But guessing the ranges if you move him does not become easier...

The antimagic ability is what i am unsure about. 24'' range is OK, but can be avoided. Most mages will fail their test 25-45% of the time. IF they fail, they know it and can cast their spells accordingly. Maybe they wil cast not three spells but only two. BUT they still have all their powerdice. The spells will be harder to dispell because more dice are used to reliably cast them. Of course this messes with the opponents casting and limits him. But you wil still need magic defense.I see this ability more as a bonus, nice when it does something, but nothing reliable. I admit, it is nasty versus vampires to prevent invocation span on one die.

Last, it is a big monster. But with T5 W5 it is as fragile as a chaos giant. And WS2 means most things wil hit on 3s and he will hit characters on 5s mostly. His reroll ability will kick in versus:
mages: not likely he gets them
characters: he will hit on 5 and they are likely to kill him
demons+undead: well, yea. Against these i'd take him :)

But i will try it out, theoryhammer is...well theory after all.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 07, 2010, 12:55:07 PM
And I found the fluff about lizzie like beastmens of Naggaroth the coolest.

By the way, about Phillys list above, don´t listen to him!

Have your ungor keep their spears and pay 6 points for them. It is fluff and fun instead of Phillys die hard competitive cheese version!
And spears always looks better than hand  weapons and looks are everything!  :icon_razz:

Of course you take the giant! You are after all a fellow that play Warhammer for the stupid but epic moves and not just to paste your opponent I am sure.
Giants and funkier and more random that the other gittsy stuff. If a monster cannot fall over and die by itself it ain´t worth taking!  :icon_mrgreen:

Sorry, but it was just too much efficiency and competitiveness and way to little real Luuuvv in this tread. I had to rectify it!
Don´t play for winning, play for awesomeness! That is Warhammer!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 07, 2010, 01:00:41 PM
I don't understand, why did we lose all the walk through woods ability?

It was bad enough that the herds can't do it, but centigor too? That was one of their best aspects, being able to swing through woods to set up an unlikely flank charge. Now, woods are no use to us at all. Well, I suppose our skirmishers can use them, but it just doesn't make sense to me that a race that spends 95% of it's time in the woods doesn't know how to walk through them.

I was gonna get my book last night but the store didn't have it yet *whimper* so it's gonna have to be next week...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Sig on February 07, 2010, 01:30:25 PM
I bought an old 20 model herd which I won't be using if you want to pick it up off me for cheap Warlord. I was really hoping for a different direction for the army so I won't be picking them up.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 07, 2010, 01:46:41 PM
Gor: sadly much too expensive. With AHW they cost 8 points a piece! Hope that ranked infantry gets a boost in 8th ed. and makes them worthwile

I really think they factored in the [rimal fury and the ability to keep getting those rerolls.  I would have been okay with the cost had they come with a shield and had to exchange it for an AHW.  That would have meant a 7 point shield bearer who needs another point to excel in combat.

Quote
Ungor: With a killy character they might actually be OK. Cheap enough to serve as shaman guard. I will also try to ambush these guys

At 5 points with a shield they aren't too bad.  I am curious what price GW put on the ambush ability.  I think it looks like roughly a point per model, which is unusual given the fact they didn't seem to factor it in last edition (similar to hatred for DE and detachments for Empire).

Quote
Ungor raiders: Ambushing skirmishers with shortbows and M5 for 2 points less than an imperial archer? I already regret i only bought two boxes of these. Ld 6 is a drawback, but they are cheap enough not to care when they run off. Interestingly the raiders can have a musician.

Yeah, these guys are crazy cheap aren't they?  While the ungor and gor are a point too high, these seem like logical.

Quote
Chariots: Core chariots are nice although they lost a but of punch.

They did and didn't.  THey will actually do a little more damage than before with Primal Fury, but the loss if the mark of chaos undivided hurts BAD.  Then again, they could have had them pulled by snails as long as they remained core to make me happy :D

Quote
Centigors:Very vulnerable to shooting. Sadly they lost move through woods. One of the worse special choices

Terrible unit.  I am baffled how they lost the move through woods AND had a significant point hick and nobody seemed to wonder.

Quote
Bestigor: Really, i do not know how this unit can make it's points back. The only thing they might beat are blocks of lowly infantry that cost half the points of the beasties. And even that is not reliably.

This unit needed a point drop and to remain the same price in order to be useful.  It got a drop in stats and the points remained the same...  Now the issue of course is every good strategy in the army revolves around this unit.  You need them to carry the sweet banners that exist.  They benefit tremedously from a ghorbull or doombull leader.  In cases like that they get 2 S6 attacks (sometimes S7 if you take the must have strength banner).  Also, they are amazing with the Horn of the First Beast. This horn allows all models with Primal Fury with 36" of the bearer to reroll their test.  Thats a big bubble of prepetual hatred.  Unfortunately the BEstigor can't have both hatred and frenzy.  So I guess what I am trying to say is they are sort of necessary in a way.  I hadn't planned on using them, but strategies keep coming into my head on ways they can be good...

Quote
Minotaur: Lots of points on not so many wounds but if they get into combat they will rock! They won't catch anything, so you need to lay crossfire or combocharge wih something fast

Yeah they need shooting cover, but the points are about right for their stats.  Compare them to Ironguts.

Quote
Razorgor: Ld 6 is theri drawback, but near the general they can put up quite some hurt!

Awesomely powerful on charges.  Many seem to favor 2 in a unit.  I like 3.

Quote
Razorchariot: Nasty thing. Expensive, but hard. You can mount a character on top which makes it a hammer of its own.

I would only use this as a character mount, mostly to get the higher chance of the Primal Fury and to save the special slot.

Quote
Harpies: This unit is known to be good. AND they can scout for +3 points. Especially good for generals that do not want to ambush.

Not sure how I will approach these.  I really want to like them, but can't expend the slot and points when I could get double their number in ungor skirmishers...

Quote
Rare:
Giant + Spawn: Yea, you could take them because you still have the models...

My thoughts exactly.

Quote
Cygor: Sounds cool, but is too random in what it does to rectify the point cost. I might be wrong but i think he is the weakest of the three new rares.

I agree.  The LD8 and W5 did it for me.  He is not tough enough and not going to sit and whale i na unit like Giants or Ghorgons.

Quote
Ghorgon: S6 T6 frenzied killing machine. Nasty

Really good, but the number crunching indicates that a unit of minotaur will do better...

Quote
Jabberslythe: US5 flying terrorcauser with nice special rules. Some armies will fear this. OK in CC, but you need to take care of it.

It really is like a Tomahawk missle.  It will go flying out, destroy large areas, and not come home.  I was a bit down on it initially, but when you consider that it is only 75 points more than our griffin in EMpire, has another wound, higher leadership, and a pile of abilities, plus doesn't need a character, its worth it.

Quote
Magic items are OK. No no-brainers like ring of hotek/dark elf pendant, but also only few really crappy ones. I agree with Philly, the banners are all nice. Downside is, that only the BSB and bestigors can have one...

Some stars though are the Axes of Khorgor (for Minotaur - other characters will almost always get hatred) and the Hunting spear, which on a character in a chariot will be absolutely necessary!  I like the Horn of the First BEast, and think that will be used in any army with more than a couple units of gor and bestigor.

Quote
@Philly: Are you willing to part with some of your metal minoaurs? How expensive would shiping from the US to Europe be? I stil disike the new plastic ones...

Sure, I have 4 unassembled and unpainted.  I would actually be willing to sell all of them if someone wanted them.  My only concern is I wanted to sort of save money on my beastmen by not having to buy too many models, so I wouls want enough to make purchasing the plastic ones not too painful  What would you consider a fair price?

Warlord, if you want any let me know.  I have more than enough for both of you provided I can get a decent amount (like I said, if 3 could approach the price of the new boxes by enough I have no problem doing it).

Shadowlord:  I am putting my first minotaurs together today.  I will snap a picture of them beside some of my ogres.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 07, 2010, 02:00:34 PM
I was running the numbers.  How about $12 per minotaur?  Thats less than the current ones, and would mean I would only need to drop another $10 to replace them.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 07, 2010, 02:16:39 PM
Damn, my reply was lost whilst i went to look after my little one....Philly answered by now, so new reply:

@PhillyT: Biggest issue with buying your Minos is the postage. I'd only need 3 Minos with Greatweapons and would pay about 25 Euros including shipping. I don't know how much you have to pay for oversea shipping and if you'd get a fair deal off that.
Edit: Ok, just saw your 12$ offer. Without shipping i'd gladly take them, but having them sent over to me will probably make it too expensive. I'll try to find some on ebay in Germany. Thanks for you offer anyways!

Concerning the magic items: i really like the synergy of some items. Notably good are also the brass cleaver (on a minotaur hero), hagtree fetish, ramhorn helm and mangelder (I like the effects of that weapon in combination with its name...).

You might be right about the bestigors being needed. If they could have both frenzy and primal fury they would be good, but as they are they are to fragile and not killy enough. If you would run them for a magic banner or as minotaur-hero bunker how many would you take?

Comparing the jabber with a tomahawk is SO good!  :biggriin:

@Siberius: The new book has some fluff explaining why beasts don't move through woods. They use the "beast-paths", a kind of hidden motorways for beastmen. :icon_rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 07, 2010, 02:39:49 PM
American shipping is pretty good.  If you want two minotaur (I only have two with great weapons), I could pack and ship them for $24 I would be willing to bet.  If you want I can check tomorrow.  ALl of my other minotaur are AHW.

As for the Bestigor Bunker, I would say put a Ghorbull BSB in with them, armed with a shield, heavy armor, AHW, and either the banner which grants a +1S or the one which gives a -1 LD to the enemy units within 6"  I would run them 6 wide and 3 deep, meaning about 14 models (I would make a 50mm base for the BSB - one you can insert a 40mm into).  You could drop the BSB portion and play a straight Doombul, giving the unit the LD banner and letting the Doombull run as a savage CC machine while allowing the other bestigor to drop 10 S6 attacks to support his 7 S6 rerollables.  Disgustingly powerful.

And here is a test list I am playing with for the NE Bash:

Characters:

Wargor - Chariot, heavy armor, shield, Hunting Spear - 221 points
Shaman - Chariot, Skin of Man, Dispel Scroll, Chariot - 195 points

Core:

4 Chariots - 320 points

8 units of 5 Ungor Skirmishers with musicians - 264 points

Special:

4 Minotaur - 252 points
4 Minotaur - 252 points

Total points: 1486 (some room to move things around)

This list is chariot heavy with 6, and the minotaur will serve as a nasty collison unit.  The hunting spear will allow for some ranged threat, particularly since any round the wargor isn't charging he can fire without issue.  He should average two hits per game.  There is alot of room to change this model.  I will most likely be using a different loadout, but this serves its purpose within this test list.

The ungor will ambush 4 units, while the 20 that remain deployed will cover the army from shooting while firing at the enemy as needed.  The ones who come on form the ambush will support the scouting shaman.  I am curious to see how this list might work.  I am quite willing to drop the scouting shaman. 

The sad thing is everytime I crunch the numbers, I think running a pair of razorgor chariots and 3 more normal ones would actually be better than the two units of minotaur... 11 chariots total with 40 ungor supporters.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 07, 2010, 03:00:05 PM
Your list looks good. In 1500 this will be hard to beat, at that point range won't be many things that can threaten chariots and fielding 6 is close to being mean  :icon_twisted:.

If you are willing to send me two minotaur for 24$ or three for 36$ (I'd take one with standard or one with AHW as third one) send me a PM by which means you'd like to be paid  :smile2:
Ugh, i can sense people interpreting stuff into this....i mean by which means i shall transfer my money to you.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 07, 2010, 03:03:09 PM
I will check the postage.  Should be fine, especially with three minotaur (should ship at the same price as 2).

What do you think for the characters and magic items?

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 07, 2010, 03:14:39 PM
I think your character setup is fine. I contemplated giving the wargor a more defensive kit, but the spear is better. There is no use to give him a good armour save when he rides on a chariot with T4 and 4+ AS.

I don't know if the skin of man is so good for the shaman, scouting a chariot base is not easy. But apart from a second scroll i do not know what to give him.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Lord Karnik on February 07, 2010, 03:17:37 PM
Dam philly 6 chariots I new I wanted to bring my dwarf Gun line to the BASH!!! I am think 8 Balista with 4 that are S7 will do nicely......

Look foward to being your test dummy for the list!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 07, 2010, 03:34:44 PM

@Siberius: The new book has some fluff explaining why beasts don't move through woods. They use the "beast-paths", a kind of hidden motorways for beastmen. :icon_rolleyes:

I see what you are saying... there's no point in even trying to argue against that logic is there  :wink:.

Ah well. It's just sad because beasts used to be the ultimate army to take on Wood Elves at their own game and flush them out. Now wood elves will be loving it again, hanging out in their woods with impunity.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 07, 2010, 03:37:12 PM
Just glued the first 10 ungor raiders. Very fine sculpts! A bit too hunchbacked but otherwise very nice. I really like the musican.
Take care when you cut those bows from the sprue, they are a bit hard to get out due to the protuding spikes.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 07, 2010, 04:05:59 PM
I am so looking forward to getting some of those guys...!

Quick question seeing as I am still armybookless... is it really really true that ungors are on 20mm bases now? I want to get cracking on changing them over if that is the case as come March, we're starting an escalation league at the LGS and I'm going back to the beasts... oh it'll be nice to be hairy and horny again!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 07, 2010, 04:48:47 PM
Lord Karnik:  Keep in mind, those ungor would block the chariots from the BT's long enough for the ambushers to get out in front to further block them from 1" away.  The skirmishers wouldn't be able to do alot more than that against T4 LD9 dwarf crewmen, but they wouldn't really need too. 

Siberius:  Yes, 20mm bases once again.  I know I have some work ahead of me.  Fully painted and flocked, well done bases to be destroyed... :(  I think I am going to wait until I get the Bestigor.  I can just cut the ungor off nad glue the Bestigor on.  Save me alot of trouble in the long run.  I don;t enjoy painting bases though I like makingthem look cool.

A review of the special characters:

Gorthor:  Huge drop since last edition.  He used to be in a tougher chariot with T5, had a strength limiting ability which protected his chariot, and a nasty magic spear.  Now he is cheaper, but only has killing blow, the ability to roll two dice for impact hits and take the highest, and has an 18" LD9 bubble.  He has no armor of anykind for himself, his chariot is T4, and he is very killable with no wards of any sort.  Really not a good model.  On the plus side, he is really no more expensive than any other BEastlord in a chariot with 100 points of magic items.  Plus he has another attack and WS over a normal one.  His driver is still S4 and S5 on the charge with 2 attacks, so not a bad buy as a whole, just super weak in combat against characters.

Malagor:  A flying Level 4 shaman with abilities that boost friendly units within 6"  Not all that good really.  You would do better to take a normal Great BRay Shaman and kit him out with magic items.

Ghorros Warhoof:  A neat character who is actually useful to some people.  He is a unit upgrade for a unit of Centigor.  He makes that unit have another point of WS for  a WS5, and makes ALL centigor core.  This is good, but who really wants that many Centigor?  He costs alot, but has good attacks, S5 and does d3 wounds.  Situational at best.

Morghur:  At first glance Morghur looks like he got hit with a king sized nerf hammer.  I thought so anyway.  But if you really look at him, I think he may actually be better than before in most ways.  He used to be a crazy spawn who could produce lots of spawn for free.  That was cool, but he took away the ability for the army to have a general, made everything erratic, and really was more of a fun model than a competitive one.  Now he has a normal wargor profile but with a couple catches: HE cannot be shot at or targeted, same as always.  Additionally, the S3 hits he gives before combat to enemy models allow no armor saves.  Thats huge.  His spawn ability is now only for your own models.  At the start of a magic phase you remove a friendly model within 12" and on a 3"+ replace it with a full wound spawn.  This spawn is placed within 3" of that spot.  The cool thing is, you can cheat a little extra distance for the spawn.  Pick an ungor skirmisher within 12", preferably ahead of you, and turn him into a spawn 3" closer to the enemy.  Could be fun.  He is alot cheaper, which means you might see him used more often.  And he is only a hero.

Taurox The Brass Bull: This guy is a machine.  He is not to expensive, has a doom bulls statline plus a T6, and a 1+ AS.  His axes ignore AS and are flaming.  His problem is that if an oppoenent rolls a 6 to hit, thne a 6 to wound, and he fails his save, he dies outright.  Not that likely, but its there.  Oh and he gets a +1 to his impact hits, for a d3+1 total.

Moonclaw:  Stupid ungor hero riding a mutant tuskagor.  And they are both from outer space.  Seriously.  From the Chaos Moon Morrslieb.  He is a level one shaman, makes everythingwithin 12" stupid, and can call down asteroids from the sky for a single random turn (roll a d3) each game.  He is terrible.

Ungrol: An ungor unit upgrade, he makes a unit of ungor slightly better.  How much better?  Not enough to warrant his hideous point value.

Slugtongue:  This guy is VERY cool.  HE is by far the most useful character in the list.  A level 2 shaman who can use death or wild magic, he has primal fury, regeneration, poison attacks, and at the start of the game forces every enemy unit within 36" to test on a table.  Half of the time they will lose a few men with no saves of any kind!  On one result it is d3 wounds, on the other it is d6!  And he is really a good buy for a 2nd level shaman with regeneration.

Khazrak:  Oh my Khazrak... I loved his fluff.  I loved that he was the new defacto lord of the beastmen.  Now that is Malagar and Khazrak has taken a hit in the combat region too.  He is a normal beastlord with a higher WS, his dark mail is better, with a 2+ AS and the removal of magical properties from anyone base contact.  His whip now can allow him to forgo his normal attacks, 4, and instead take a number of attacks equal to the number of models in its front rank.  So normally 5 or 6.  Okay, thats alright I suppose...  His best ability is to allow all ambusher to reroll their die to enter the table.  I can think of some really nasty combinations with that...

Phil


Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 07, 2010, 05:36:41 PM
The first one who puts his 6th ed. ungor on 20 mm bases please report  how it goes. I'd like to know if they rank up properly on 20 mm or if i have to rip off the arms and give them bows...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 07, 2010, 06:51:08 PM
I checked, they will be fine.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 07, 2010, 06:53:30 PM
Great! Let the chopping begin!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 07, 2010, 06:58:34 PM
The poor ungor really were positively swimming in 25mm bases.  20 is the right size, it just sucks that some of my ungor were on 20's back in 5th, went to 25mm in 6th, and now go back to 20mm in 7th/8th...

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 07, 2010, 07:55:06 PM
Read the book today and was surprised to see that the monster section wasn't as over crowded as the internet had me believe.

Looks like a solid list, with some good strengths and some weaknesses (the leadership of the minos for instance), and I love the models and the conversion possibilities. But I absolutely loathe the fluff atm. There are several reasons for that, but most of all it is the "this army is unstoppable" approach that gets my spider sense tingling. No matter what man/any race sets against these beasts, they have lost before the battle even starts. Everything is doomed worse than before. I love the slow approach of impending loss of the old world, but this book is written in such a way/speed that it becomes ridiculous (Altdorf will soon fall...).

I usually don't have a gripe with the fluff and to be honest, this is the first time I had a WTF? look after reading the fluff section (not even the Tyranid codex did that to me).

Too bad, I need to read it again with a more open mind because right now, it feels like someone thought beastmen players didn't have any women in their lives at all and had to compensate it with "these beasts is teh shit!".

One could almost think beastmen were Space Marines: "and none can stand before them..."...  :icon_rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 07, 2010, 09:20:34 PM
I think the fluff in the beast book is aimed at smaller goals.  I mean they drop a thousand beast on 300 halberdiers at one point.  Seems a bit excessive.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 07, 2010, 10:07:39 PM
I think the fluff in the beast book is aimed at smaller goals.  I mean they drop a thousand beast on 300 halberdiers at one point.  Seems a bit excessive.

Slaughtering millions, Altdorf is about to fall bla bla, the fluff was written when the author was stoned, billions of minos march against Talabheim bla bla bla, Ungors are more than a match against any man - even greatswords and inner circle, gors eats Elector Counts for breakfast, they are boarding their first Space Hulk because the Warhammer World is too small for them to slaughter all on bla bla bla.

It is utter crap, and it is the first AB or Codex I have been bored out of my mind when reading the fluff.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 07, 2010, 10:52:57 PM
Regardless of what the new book may say... I am sticking to my fluff!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 08, 2010, 12:11:33 AM
Maybe I will need to reread the fluff, because I didn't really get any of that when I read it.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 08, 2010, 12:12:02 AM
But I absolutely loathe the fluff atm. There are several reasons for that, but most of all it is the "this army is unstoppable" approach that gets my spider sense tingling. No matter what man/any race sets against these beasts, they have lost before the battle even starts. Everything is doomed worse than before. I love the slow approach of impending loss of the old world, but this book is written in such a way/speed that it becomes ridiculous (Altdorf will soon fall...).

I usually don't have a gripe with the fluff and to be honest, this is the first time I had a WTF? look after reading the fluff section (not even the Tyranid codex did that to me).

Too bad, I need to read it again with a more open mind because right now, it feels like someone thought beastmen players didn't have any women in their lives at all and had to compensate it with "these beasts is teh shit!".

One could almost think beastmen were Space Marines: "and none can stand before them..."...  :icon_rolleyes:

It is utter crap, and it is the first AB or Codex I have been bored out of my mind when reading the fluff.

Agree. It really is that terrible.

Also, like I said, I also didn't like how they focus purely on the fact that Beastmen live only in Drakwald. A nod towards other regions is good too, otherwise beastmen fighting tomb kings, lizardmen, high elves or dark elves makes no sense. I will get over that in coming days though I guess.

The rest though, it is just so overexaggerated how the Beastmen so unquestionably dominate everything they ever fight, except for some guy once a long time back with a golden hammer. Apparantly the memory of Sigmar is written into their genes, as even newborn ungor have hatred for sigmar.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 08, 2010, 12:18:44 AM
I certainly don't see the only Darkwald idea.  Most is ambiguious, the Gorthor part is all of the Empire, Morgur and the Jabberscythe are Brettonia and the Arden.

Never been one to be all that obsessed with fluff, but you guys seem pretty serious about it.

Here is the size comparison.  A 5th edition minotaur, the 8th edition one, and the rather small looking Irongut.
 
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Minotaurtest.jpg)

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 08, 2010, 12:22:02 AM
I wouldn't have minded it if they didn't do it so very over the top and in an unimaginative way. It wasn't the most pleasurable stuff to read.

By the way, I am interested in getting those Minotaurs off you, and the price works well for me too (lets take this to PM).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 08, 2010, 06:33:11 AM
These were found on a blog that I won't call out. If you really wanted to, you might be able to Google them.

Quite funny considering how fiery the support for the Minos is in this thread.  :icon_twisted:

Minotaurs
Quote
Will they never learn!? Units that pay a huge price for offensive power, while ignoring any sort of defense, are compromised. They look good on paper, but any opponent with half a brain cell will just take care of them in another way.

Minotaurs are Toughness 4 with light armor. Fifty-five points. Throw these losers in the garbage. Too bad, GW could have done it right this time.

Same for Chaos Spawn. They insist on putting these pathetic lumps in every book. Make them good for pity's sake! And they're in rare choices swimming with three really cool new entries. Forget it.

All that said, Minotaurs do get this new thing where they get Frenzy, but after they get into close combat. That's a nice feature.

Can you see where this is going?

Quote
Doombulls no longer make Minotaurs Core. Sad. And there was no reason not to carry that over since Minotaurs are completely pitiful. So, congratulations "guy who made a minotaur army" you're screwed.

Wait for it...

Quote
Maybe I was too hard on the Minotaurs. They really are killing machines, which makes the different than other ogrish models (eg Kroxigor). They have S7 with great weapons, and increasing attacks if they keep winning combats, potentially turning them into an unstoppable massacre. They just need to get in there with another unit with ranks/banner/outnumber.

OK, definitely going to at least try the Minotaurs.

BAM!!

Not so bad after all.  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 08, 2010, 11:50:37 AM
Shadowlords recension saved me some bucks. Now I will not buy the Beastie book just to have a look. I hate that kind of hyperbolic way of writing the army books, that is intent on making the reader go "OH WOW! THEARETHEROXOR!!! I´m on da winning team Muhahaha... "
Can it be as simple as the beasties not having sold well and GW really wanted to sell lots of them from the Timmies and up?

Seems as if GW really want to paint "END TIMES" on our noses and make the bad guy players feel awesome. It is that kind of shit that puts me of them. However, maybe Empire finally get the rare choice of Space marines this time around.  :icon_rolleyes:

However, judging by the fluff, and somewhat by the army choices, but mostly by the fluff it seems, I guess GW is trying to push the army towards guys with lack of girl/boyfriends.

In short, real men (and women) will still keep on playing Empire and O&G. And dwarfs... Cause they don´t fething care!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 08, 2010, 12:03:47 PM
I have to disagree with Shadowlord.  I read thro0ugh all of the fluff once again last night and found it no better or worse than any other army book.  At no point did it imply the BEastmen would be the end of the world, only that within their own minds if things progress the way they have they will take back the realms of man.  It is implied that outside their forests and some specific wastelands, they are relatively powerless.

Within the woods, yes, they are implied to rule without much question.  There is only a single point where there are mentioned to be thousands of minotaur, and thats the Brassbulls legion which is a mile long.  Not a very significant thing when you figure it took hours for a Roman legion to march past a specific point in a road and it was only about 8000 men.  As for the book implying Ungor are more than a match for a greatswordsmen, I found nothing to support that one.  It might be in there but there were many more entries where it specifically says the ungor are sallys who get beat up and eaten by the gors almost like goblins.  There might be some hyperbole, but I suspect it is the Swedish sort.  I am assuming we are reading the English book.

And there is nearly as much discussion about the Beastmen of Bretonnia and the wastes in the eastern Empire as in the Drakenwald.

As for the book itself, I like the new fluff where the beastmen are mating within their own communities rather than being replenished purely through mutations within human and animal populations.  Makes them that much nastier when you imagine them getting it on in their stinking masses.  Now human mutants are considered lesser creatures and often forced to live within the ungor communities.  There is that neat bit of fluff where there are maniac humans from that sanitorium who eat the other humans along side the gor and were accepted into the herd because of it because the gor found it comical.

Taureus:  Thats hilarious.  I love it when people act like complete idiots leading into a book.  The funny thing is he comments on how much he likes the rares yet they are just as soft as minotaurs in their own way!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 08, 2010, 12:24:33 PM
There are no swedish version of the book, Philly. We use the same english version as you do.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 08, 2010, 12:31:57 PM
Thats what I figured.  So the hyperbole is derived from the reader not the text.  This is not the first time Shadowlord has used extreme comments to illicit the desired response.  He is very good at it.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 08, 2010, 01:12:11 PM
I too think that the fluff is far from awesome. But that is the case with most warhammer fluff in my opinion. The beastman fluff is poor because there is not much culture amongst beastmen to write about, so the authors write mostly about how ferocius they are and that they like to rip apart everything in their path.
A bit boring all in all. The "story" parts however are quite nice.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Midaski on February 08, 2010, 01:40:53 PM
So the hyperbole is derived from the reader not the text.  This is not the first time Shadowlord has used extreme comments to illicit the desired response.  He is very good at it.

A troll - what? ....... No Never ....................  :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 08, 2010, 02:20:29 PM
The dark elf book has really bad fluff.

Nothing to do with this thread, but true.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 08, 2010, 03:55:36 PM
I don't think anyone should be expecting a fluff masterpiece about beasts. The only way you can make it more interesting is to write from other races (mostly humans) perspectives.

I never expected to get much in the way of stories I could dig into and base fluff around with beasts, because... well... they're a bit wild aren't they. Society is not really their thing.

From what Philly says, my fluff will still be perfectly fine and with the whole mating with each other thing, probably even better chance that an army like mine could exist, one that is more uniform and less about the flailing tentacles.



The problem with Dark Elf fluff is that they are supposed to be driven almost entirely by hate and greed, which makes it hard to write in any kind of cool angles. It just is what it is.  :|
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: dagonaki on February 08, 2010, 04:12:54 PM
Granted, I have only glanced through PhillyT's copy of the Beastman book, but I didn't see anything suggesting them being unstoppable doomsday-heralds.  They're a savage race of killers and that is reflected rather well in their rules, I'd say.  I'll take another look at it at some point here, but really all army books are filled with a fair amount of chestbeating; 40k is rife with this.  Tyranids will devour the Empire...make peace with it, because it's going to happen...Orks are unstoppable;once they set foot on your homeworld, the best you can hope for is a quick death because their mushroom spore had now infected your planet  :icon_eek: bwahahaa!  It's all the same stuff. Fantasy is actually pretty tame in comparison.

Also, showing my bias here, but the Dark Elf book is actually quite well written fluff-wise imo.  I do agree with Siberius though...they are painted a bit too monochrome with the whole hate/greed thing.  Kind of makes interplay between races difficult to picture.


Perhaps that's the point though.  The books strive to paint each of their armies in the best light possible to appeal to their base and thus should be taken with a heavy grain of salt.  No one wants to play the "pasty slaver crybabies" or the "inbred goat men on HGH."   :lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 08, 2010, 04:24:40 PM
Thats what I figured.  So the hyperbole is derived from the reader not the text.  This is not the first time Shadowlord has used extreme comments to illicit the desired response.  He is very good at it.

Not this time Mr No-Sense-of-Sarcasm.

Beastmen fluff irks me bad, and that is a first so no matter how eloquently you defend it, when I read that tripe I just shudder. Your love for horns makes your eyes letter blind if you think that crap is good (if great, I am leaving you...).

And since fluff matters to me, beastmen will pass my painting table.

I'll probably start with something less über-invincible, like Space Marines.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 08, 2010, 04:32:39 PM
Also, showing my bias here, but the Dark Elf book is actually quite well written fluff-wise imo.  I do agree with Siberius though...they are painted a bit too monochrome with the whole hate/greed thing. 

I don't know how they managed to fill a whole book with nothing but 'dark elves are nasty and like to kill stuff.'


Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 08, 2010, 04:40:05 PM
It's pretty easy really. You just copy and paste it.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 08, 2010, 05:27:44 PM
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Minotaurtest.jpg)

 :icon_lol:

Minos - because we eat Bloodthirsters for breakfast.

Thanks for the pic even if your fluff view is kah-razy.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 08, 2010, 07:18:49 PM
Yeah, he looks like he is so badass he takes on half a dozen bloodthirsters for breakfast!

And it do seem as if Philly... sorry, I mean Grilly, has been totally blinded by his love for beastialities.  :icon_mrgreen:

By the way, it is the hyperbole style fluff that really sucks and puts me of from armies. Like it put me of from HE when the new book slammed down. And with druchiis being all impossible to function as a society really etc...

Now, maybe I should do as Shadowlord and start a balanced and soft army, like Space Wolves or something...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 08, 2010, 07:57:38 PM
By the way, it is the hyperbole style fluff that really sucks and puts me of

Blahahahahahahaha

 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: dagonaki on February 08, 2010, 08:40:56 PM
The Dark Elves are one of the only evil armies that does have a society to speak of when you think about it.  Sure it's a 10 to 1 ratio of slaves to citizens, and their economy is centered around looting other cultures goods, but they actually have cities, government (despotic though it may be), an economy, organised religion,etc...  The only other evil armies that can make that claim are Skaven and perhaps Ogre Kingdoms- and that's only if you consider the Ogres to be outright evil.  The rest are either undead, demons from the warp, roaming cultist warbands or psychotic Orc hordes. Let's face it; if they all sat down at the dinner table, only the Dark Elves would know which forks to use.  :-D
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 08, 2010, 10:52:04 PM
Dark Elves have no more claim on civilization than any other evil army.  Chaos Warriors and beastmen both have religion and cities of their own types.  Nor is the Dark Elf economy any more sensical or its society sustainable.  On one hand it implies it has been around for millenia as they murdered thousands of their own kind.  Or the fact that despite having less population than the HE to start, they are apparently more populous while having the opposite of a nurturing society.  Meanwhile the HE are dwindling despite taking care of their kids...

Back to beastmen.  I don't think the fluff is any better or worse than last edition or any other book for that matter.  It is what it is.  It certainly isn't so bad that the army is unlikeable.  I liked the feel of the last edition, but they have seperated the army from chaos well and redifined parts to justify it.  I like the mating concept.  Nothing else is significantly different from the 6th edition book, certainly not enough so to ellicit the response from Shadowlord.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 08, 2010, 11:28:56 PM
Dark Elves have no more claim on civilization than any other evil army.  Chaos Warriors and beastmen both have religion and cities of their own types.  Nor is the Dark Elf economy any more sensical or its society sustainable.  On one hand it implies it has been around for millenia as they murdered thousands of their own kind.  Or the fact that despite having less population than the HE to start, they are apparently more populous while having the opposite of a nurturing society.  Meanwhile the HE are dwindling despite taking care of their kids...

Agree. Dark Elf fluff has a lot of gaps in common sense regarding sustainability.

Back to beastmen.  I don't think the fluff is any better or worse than last edition or any other book for that matter.  It is what it is.  It certainly isn't so bad that the army is unlikeable.  I liked the feel of the last edition, but they have seperated the army from chaos well and redifined parts to justify it.  I like the mating concept.  Nothing else is significantly different from the 6th edition book, certainly not enough so to ellicit the response from Shadowlord.

To be fair, I didn't read in detail the previous book so have no ability to provide a comparison. And I'm not sure what I was expecting from this book - I guess I wanted to see something that never would have been in there - stuff not related to how they are going to destroy all the kingdoms of men. Something else. Something with just a bit more about their newly refined relationship with Chaos. Something about various other beastmen mutations from around the world. Ah well. Something with a bit more about their relationship to Morrslieb. Something with a bit more of a raider / ambush feel, rather than forest bursting at the seems with beasts. Something that makes them feel primal - rather than angry men in beast costumes. I just didn't get that from the book.

But anyway, thats just what I think.

Also, would a picture of the Jabberslythe be out of the question? All I can think of is a giant bug. Which is pretty much what it is supposed to be, but it doesn't really fit with the furry feeling of the rest of the list IMO. Harpies to a degree also.

I like the mating concept.

Indeed.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 09, 2010, 12:37:05 AM
To be fair, I didn't read in detail the previous book so have no ability to provide a comparison. And I'm not sure what I was expecting from this book - I guess I wanted to see something that never would have been in there - stuff not related to how they are going to destroy all the kingdoms of men.

Well what did you want, information on their highly sophisticated banking system and their crosstitch hobbies?

Quote
Something else. Something with just a bit more about their newly refined relationship with Chaos.

Well they are no longer beholding to the warriors and instead worship it as a unified type force with various.  Not much more really.

Quote
Something about various other beastmen mutations from around the world. Ah well. Something with a bit more about their relationship to Morrslieb.


The information about other mutations is in the 6th edition book.  Its like a single paragraph and not that interesting.  They cover the same information in the 8th edition book when they say beastmen can really look like anything as long as they have horns.

Quote
Something with a bit more of a raider / ambush feel, rather than forest bursting at the seems with beasts. Something that makes them feel primal - rather than angry men in beast costumes. I just didn't get that from the book.

Well the raider ambush stuff is all through the various battle descriptions.  They break it up a little by stating that the various types of beastman armies, ambush, horde, and chariot, are seperated by geography.  The Drakenwalf beastmen seem more ambush hordy, the Gorthor western armies are chariot hordes, and the Arden type beastmen are hordey and ambushy in that order.

Quote
Also, would a picture of the Jabberslythe be out of the question? All I can think of is a giant bug. Which is pretty much what it is supposed to be, but it doesn't really fit with the furry feeling of the rest of the list IMO. Harpies to a degree also.

Certainly not a giant bug.  It is more of a flying chaospawn too crazy to make a picture of, but here is mine:

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/jabber2.jpg)

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 09, 2010, 12:44:17 AM
Deathclaw Griffon wings... cool.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 09, 2010, 01:00:42 AM
Actually 4th edition Brettonian Hippogryph wings!  Might be the same though.  I have had that model for 12 years and never had anything to do with it.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 09, 2010, 07:32:54 AM
The Jabberslythe is probably based on the Jabberwock featured in a (nonsense) poem by Lewis Caroll. The most famous interpretation of this creature is this one:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Jabberwocky.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 09, 2010, 07:34:43 AM
Nothing else is significantly different from the 6th edition book, certainly not enough so to ellicit the response from Shadowlord.

 :icon_rolleyes:

Yeah because I am the only one in this thread who thought the writer(s) shoved the beastmen awesomesauce down our throats.

The books is written like this - what do we fill the three times as big fluff section with? The same over-cooked superiority of the beastmen, over and over again, with no recollection of losses except for a snippet where Gorthor was defeated. Talabheim, Altdorf and Middenheim are falling as I type this, because no matter how high the walls of those cities are, and no matter how well defended, when Kazrak farts, they all come tumbling down and mankind dies of a  massive heart attack. There is nothing that warrants such repetitive lack of flavour.
 
The former book at least had some imagination left.

So yes, the answers from me will still be - the writers of this fluff are morons and are clearly devoid of the words "subtle" and "imagination".

A shame since the rules, the models, and the conversion possibilities almost had me swayed.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 09, 2010, 07:47:39 AM
Quote
Something else. Something with just a bit more about their newly refined relationship with Chaos.

Well they are no longer beholding to the warriors and instead worship it as a unified type force with various.  Not much more really.

I guess that was purposefully left out to seperate them from Chaos - I'm just not sure why they even needed to be separated. It just seems like they are constantly angry because men built some houses in their land. Kinda boring motivation for an army really IMO. Thats why I mentioned Morrslieb, because that is kinda interesting.

Quote
Something about various other beastmen mutations from around the world. Ah well. Something with a bit more about their relationship to Morrslieb.


The information about other mutations is in the 6th edition book.  Its like a single paragraph and not that interesting.  They cover the same information in the 8th edition book when they say beastmen can really look like anything as long as they have horns.


I thought it was a full page *shrug* Doesn't bother me that much, I understand that they base most books around the old world, and thats fine, I guess I always just like the nod to the rest of the world that it actually exists.

Quote
Something with a bit more of a raider / ambush feel, rather than forest bursting at the seems with beasts. Something that makes them feel primal - rather than angry men in beast costumes. I just didn't get that from the book.

Well the raider ambush stuff is all through the various battle descriptions.  They break it up a little by stating that the various types of beastman armies, ambush, horde, and chariot, are seperated by geography.  The Drakenwalf beastmen seem more ambush hordy, the Gorthor western armies are chariot hordes, and the Arden type beastmen are hordey and ambushy in that order.


Not quite what I meant. It would be more interesting if it was actually a part of the fluff, rather than making it seem like they always fight wars on their masterminded, strategic view to destroy the world of men with their tactical strikes at major cities that are waiting to fall. Having it in war stories is all well and good, but have the fluff reflect that then.

What about their relationship with the Woodelves. That seemed played down a significant amount IMO - mainly that the WE have their forests, and the beastmen don't really go into them.

...

Anyway, discussing our own likes and dislikes of fluff is like arguing about various styles of miniature scuplts and saying which one is better. Its all just a matter of opinion, and I am going to leave it at that.

By the way, I remember that picture of the Jabberwocky, and that may very well be what they were aiming for, but they way I read it, I was seeing some kind of giant Dragonfly / Mosquito thing.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 09, 2010, 10:54:02 AM
Indeed, a more varied perspective on the races glories and setbacks is more sweet to read. Each army book should make sense visavi the others.
When your read the present Empire book or the Greenskin book, sure there are glories to be told, but still, it is about grim struggle, not about soon crushing everything before them.
Even greenskin, with all the stories about their glories, also have mentions about their defeats.

And I trust Shadowlords word and taste above yours in this regards, Philly. Shadowlord is the GW master fanboy here, and when he gets critical, he usually have on his feet. He don´t go of whining for nothing. If he have issues with GW stuff, they are usually true issues.
I liked to own many army books, not because I fielded all armies, or because I needed all for military intelligence, but because they complemented each other, told another part of the story and gave you a wider picture.
But books briming with Hyperbole about one race does not really add anything. GW just lost some bucks. I might have bought the book if the Beasts where made a bit more interesting, now, they just sound angry and awesome. Not very interesting.

Just shows that they are a bit... redundant. There are Orcs & Goblins. Who needs others when you got such awesome kickers as antagonists!  :::cheers::: All other "Bad guys" looks rather pathetic in comparission.

Oh, wait, I can hear the complains coming. 40K orkz are all glorified! They never loose etc...
Sorry, but that would be bollocks. They never loose not because they don´t but because they just live for the fight. If you die having a good fight you just won the great Green lottery!
Also, the story of Grazhkull is tied with the story of Yarrick. Both showing a grudging respect for each other, and the description of the Armageddon wars are a story of glories and defeats for both sides.
That is how all fluff should be, less "WERESOLEEETTTTROXOR!!!" However, that stuff appeals to the Timmys. And it seems to appeal to more mature fans aswell, but they seem less able to accept that it appeals on that basic level and claim it is exellent and not overdone. :closed-eyes:

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 09, 2010, 11:03:46 AM
The Jabberslythe is probably based on the Jabberwock featured in a (nonsense) poem by Lewis Caroll. The most famous interpretation of this creature is this one:

They should have just called it a jabberwock, really. Especially since they already exist in old versions of warhammer.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 09, 2010, 11:12:33 AM
They should have just called it a jabberwock, really. Especially since they already exist in old versions of warhammer.

Probably an IP thing.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 09, 2010, 11:13:53 AM
True. They realized there was no way to get an exclusive IP on a Jabberwock. So they just had to make something slightly different so they could be exclusive.

Silly, really. Very silly.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 09, 2010, 11:19:13 AM
Anyway, discussing our own likes and dislikes of fluff is like arguing about various styles of miniature scuplts and saying which one is better. Its all just a matter of opinion, and I am going to leave it at that.

In a way but a model that is crappy sculpted is still crappy sculpted model.

For instance, anything by Rackham and Warmachine looks like crap to me, but I can not deny that they are finely sculpted minis.

The tripe in the beastman book is written in the same standard as the rest of the army books, but the content is by far the worst I have read in a long time.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 09, 2010, 11:56:59 AM
Indeed, a more varied perspective on the races glories and setbacks is more sweet to read. Each army book should make sense visavi the others.

The only grand battle that is referred to in the book is Gorthors.  Every other story is some small assault on a hamlet, or the attack on a single fort or castle.  THe Beastmen fluff involves small victories, not massive assaults.  I suppose I am confused why that implies an unstoppable horde of beasts swallowing the world whole.

Quote
When your read the present Empire book or the Greenskin book, sure there are glories to be told, but still, it is about grim struggle, not about soon crushing everything before them.
Even greenskin, with all the stories about their glories, also have mentions about their defeats.

There is nothing in the book about certain annihilation.  The longest story ends with Gorthor getting beaten and his horde getting crushed.  Its like 6 pages long.  Every other story is 1 to 3 paragraphs.

Quote
And I trust Shadowlords word and taste above yours in this regards, Philly. Shadowlord is the GW master fanboy here, and when he gets critical, he usually have on his feet. He don´t go of whining for nothing. If he have issues with GW stuff, they are usually true issues.

True, and he is similar to you in that he will sell an army and buy a whole new one on a whim.  The difference is you think about it and he actually drops the hundreds to do it. :D  Must be a swedish thing.

Quote
I liked to own many army books, not because I fielded all armies, or because I needed all for military intelligence, but because they complemented each other, told another part of the story and gave you a wider picture.

This tells a part of the story, but the beastman portion of that story is very confined due to their lack of intelectual sophistication.

Quote
But books briming with Hyperbole about one race does not really add anything. GW just lost some bucks. I might have bought the book if the Beasts where made a bit more interesting, now, they just sound angry and awesome. Not very interesting.

Except that its not brimming with hyperbole.

Quote
Just shows that they are a bit... redundant. There are Orcs & Goblins. Who needs others when you got such awesome kickers as antagonists!  :::cheers::: All other "Bad guys" looks rather pathetic in comparission.

Mathi, you havn't even read the book.  The worst that can be said about the fluff is that it is rather bland.  There is only so much that can be done with the fluff for Beastmen.


The basic breakdown on the beastmen is this:  They are like a bunch of rams or bucks in the rut.  They run around wanting to spread their seed, like they are walking towers of testosterone.  Like bull cape buffalos who NEVER find their mate.  They wander about crashing horns into every other horned buck they find, brutalize their smaller cousins and search for a means to take out their monstrous frustration on others.  THe others they have chosen are the humans who occupy the areas which used to be forests and are now encrouching upon the rest of the wooded areas.  They are essentially the oppitomy of animal fury locked within an entire race.  Not to complicated.  This is combined with the general fear of the woods primitive man once had.  Fear of the wild, lurking in the darkness.

I like it, if you don't then pick one of the other 14 armies.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 09, 2010, 12:05:49 PM
Probably an IP thing.

Do you think? Isn't the jabberwock old enough for that to be no longer an issue?



Quote from: PhillyT
if you don't then pick one of the other 14 armies.

That's your answer to everything.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 09, 2010, 12:41:52 PM
Probably an IP thing.

Do you think? Isn't the jabberwock old enough for that to be no longer an issue?

Yes, it's old enough that GW can not claim it as their OWN IP and hunt down everybody else who uses the term.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 09, 2010, 01:39:21 PM
That might almost make sense if they also re-named minotaurs, dragons, griffons...

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 09, 2010, 02:27:51 PM
Just wait and see, Rufus. Wait and see over the coming editions. :icon_razz:

Philly, you are way wrong about that primitive man fearing forest. Infact, your use of the word primitive is downright etnocentric and insulting.
With primitive man, the only thing you can refer to reasonably is very early hunters and gatherers. To them, the forest was their world. To hunters and gatherers, the forest is their home. There are things there to respect, but it also is their home and it feeds them.

It if farmers that starts to fear the forest, and the idea really cathes hold in the last two millenias. Before that, a forest was a forest and it helped you survive.
In North Sweden, where you can still hear the tales about the creatures you better watch out for in the woods, people would laugh at you if you said their ancestors feared the wood. If they had, they would have died. I would wish that you select your words more carefully and really consider it it is sensible that a hunter weho live all his life in a forest would live in mortal fear for it.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 09, 2010, 03:00:46 PM
There is nothing in the book about certain annihilation.

Where to begin... Oh, yes, Page 63, 31, 27 (this is my favorite with both the Beast Rises and the Brass Bull), and every other page of the book, and even Black Fire Pass is over-run by beastmen. The whole book is about the impending doom of the Empire, and in some regards Bretonnia, and it makes those two nations not only retarded, but also totally helpless.

The Empire and Bretonnia have the most moronic knights ever.
 
Quote
True, and he is similar to you in that he will sell an army and buy a whole new one on a whim.  The difference is you think about it and he actually drops the hundreds to do it. :D  Must be a swedish thing.

 :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 09, 2010, 03:48:12 PM
Quote from: PhillyT
if you don't then pick one of the other 14 armies.
That's your answer to everything.

In fairness, it's not a bad point really.


As to Philly insulting primitive man, Mathi, is that really something we need worry about? I know political correctness is out of control, but that seems one level too far...

I wish I had the book so I could join in the discussion. But from what people are saying it seems like the whole Empire is doomed thing has been around a while hasn't it? This isn't the first we have heard of Chaos eventually winning and taking over.

And anywho, just because that is what the portents point towards in the Warhammer world, doesn't mean that it's fact that it will happen, until it does. I think they just want to emphasise the grimness of the situation and that Chaos should eventually take over. But you know how it is, the good guys always pull off the impossible turnaround.

So is that really that bothersome?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 09, 2010, 03:51:50 PM
So is that really that bothersome?

Bothersome?

I think the writers of this book missed big time, and thus will be spending my money elsewhere.

That's about it.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 09, 2010, 04:00:59 PM
What are you gonna go for? Not that I am going to try and jump up and down on whoever's fluff it is, I'm just curious. It would have been nice to have you beasting it up, especially with your painting skills.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 09, 2010, 04:21:00 PM
Well, I do believe that the true GW fanboy is Siberius.
When Shadowlord say he is gonna put his money elsewhere, Siberius implies that there can´t be much better things to buy.
I can make a list long as my arms about what even wealthy Shadowlord could use that money better upon.

An expensive dinner with his missus for example. That beats all GW releases hands down. Or a well written book.
Or maybe more Space ork stuff, something that is worth the money.

As for primitive man, I believe the word primitive should be used way more sparingly than it is today. If you refer to Homo erectus, okay, then he is primitive. But I BET not even he feared the woods.

The fear of the woods is infact something of a modern man thing. A late modern man thing, starting out with the farmers at the earliest. And we have only been farmers for 10000 years.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 09, 2010, 04:47:42 PM
 :|

Actually my post was genuine.

I like Shadowlord's painting and the thought of another beast player on the forum was cool.

I'm not saying Beasts are the best army ever, I don't even have the new book yet so I'm trying not to comment too much on what I don't know, weird as that may sound.

Whilst I ally myself with Beasts here, I'm more of a Dark Elf player than a Beasts player in real life, they fit my play style more. I think the new book will be a challenge to me as some of the hit and run style has been taken out of them, which was where I could lean on my elven tendencies. Course I will probably usually take some harpies and ungor skirmishers to make me feel more at home, but I'm also going to have to rely somewhat on good old fashioned combat resolution and get my brain around maneuvering large blocks of troops.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 09, 2010, 05:01:25 PM
What are you gonna go for? Not that I am going to try and jump up and down on whoever's fluff it is, I'm just curious. It would have been nice to have you beasting it up, especially with your painting skills.

Well I had Empire in mind, then the preview of the Tyranids and the Beastmen shattered that, but the books blew it for me for those armies as well.

I have a speed painted Ogre Kingdom army, my first, which I have converted a lot of models for (dislike most of the Ogre metal models) - aiming for a grimey look that is easy to achieve. It has about 3,000 pts painted with a similar size left to finish. I have also bought an Apokalypse sized Ork army not that long ago, which I intend to start seriously to paint and convert in march.

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Ogres/characters2.jpg)

My next WFB army may be anything as I am still looking but my problem is that I tire to fast and I just got rid of a High Elf army still intact in their boxes.   :icon_rolleyes:

Convince me that the fluff is just uneccessary, and I will go the way of the über-beast...

And Mathi, I love your type at once posts.  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: wissenlander on February 09, 2010, 06:08:48 PM
I like the mating concept.

You would. :wink:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 09, 2010, 06:38:42 PM
My next WFB army may be anything as I am still looking but my problem is that I tire to fast and I just got rid of a High Elf army still intact in their boxes.   :icon_rolleyes:

Convince me that the fluff is just uneccessary, and I will go the way of the über-beast...

Can't blame you for dumping the High Elves. I put together a Battalion Box for the person who runs our LGS and alas, the minis are really uninspiring. Tis a pity they put them out just before they started making the much more detailed, more graceful minis that have been coming out since.

I'm not gonna try and convince you too much as I know you are a man of your own mind  :wink: though I do think that the army book fluff can be dodged if one tries. Look at all the Empire players who ignore all the tonnes of state army choices and invent their own town with their own flavour and indeed paint schemes.

I pretty much did that with my beasts last edition. I didn't like the idea of being alligned to chaos gods so my army is more of a nature rebelling sort of an army. It's not affiliated with any of the chaos  gods and gets it's magical energy in a more druidic sort of way, from nature. The colours of everything are all very similar because I prefer to think of it as existing in it's own little corner of the forests. It is more beast than man, to my thinking.

How that will fit with how they have shaped beasts now I don't know. But I do know that I'm not going to suddenly change my stance on that.

So I say if you find a good concept, or imagine up some story of your own for why your army is what it is, just eat anyone that disagrees with your fluff. Maybe desecrate the fluff sections of your beast book in a disgusting way.  :-P

Or wait for the next army to come out. Do we even have any clues as to what it might be?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 09, 2010, 06:55:40 PM
So I say if you find a good concept, or imagine up some story of your own for why your army is what it is, just eat anyone that disagrees with your fluff.

Any idea if PhillyT is seasoned well?

Quote
Or wait for the next army to come out. Do we even have any clues as to what it might be?

Most likely my beloved fatties, or Orcs and Goblins by the last Warseer hint from a reliable source (or at least soonish enough).

I will read the Beastmen book again, as I love the models, and return with an answer in a few weeks.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 09, 2010, 07:13:42 PM
Just don't read the words. They are not for Beasts to read.

We beasts abhor words and savage anyone who thinks words are good. In a most unpleasant way.

As to PhillyT, Quite salty with an aftertaste of fish entrails, much as you'd expect.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 09, 2010, 09:52:55 PM
Philly, you are way wrong about that primitive man fearing forest. Infact, your use of the word primitive is downright etnocentric and insulting.

Oh boy here we go.  Let me preface everything I am about to say with the statement: MAthi, you are sometimes a complete moron. 

Alright, let’s get down to it.  First off using the adjective primitive may have been marginally misunderstood.  I used it as old, you are thinking in archaeological terms I think.  But barring that, how does that make me ethnocentric since I am as European as you in terms of my decedents?  How would it be insulting unless you or someone you know self identifies as primitive?

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With primitive man, the only thing you can refer to reasonably is very early hunters and gatherers. To them, the forest was their world. To hunters and gatherers, the forest is their home. There are things there to respect, but it also is their home and it feeds them.

God you miss the point so often it is like a game.

Quote
It if farmers that starts to fear the forest, and the idea really cathes hold in the last two millenias. Before that, a forest was a forest and it helped you survive.

So rather than harp upon an adjective that any thesaurus would equate to old, had you bothered to actually read what I was saying we might actually have been on the same page, or at least reading the same book.  What time period does the Empire represent?  Roughly.  Let’s pretend it is an agrarian society and not a hunter/gatherer nomadic people.  Let’s pretend what we are discussing is a FICTIONAL place where people, who are farmers, might be afraid of the woods.  The 6th edition beast book clearly played on the German fairy tales like Hansel and Gretel or Red Riding Hood.  The 8th edition book uses the Jabberwocky to further that concept.  You then support the idea that maybe Germans in the 1500's might have been afraid of the woods with your statement about maybe farmers are scared of things.

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In North Sweden, where you can still hear the tales about the creatures you better watch out for in the woods, people would laugh at you if you said their ancestors feared the wood. If they had, they would have died. I would wish that you select your words more carefully and really consider it is sensible that a hunter weho live all his life in a forest would live in mortal fear for it.

So Swedes are the only people who came from primitive ancestors?  Is that why you suddenly got all uppity?  Really?  I'll let my French ancestors know that we have always been drinking cognac and living in nice houses.

Seriously Mathi, I don't know if it’s the disability you so often blame or what but you so often completely miss the point.

Quote from: Shadowlord
Where to begin... Oh, yes, Page 63, 31, 27 (this is my favorite with both the Beast Rises and the Brass Bull), and every other page of the book, and even Black Fire Pass is over-run by beastmen. The whole book is about the impending doom of the Empire, and in some regards Bretonnia, and it makes those two nations not only retarded, but also totally helpless.

Page 27:

Beast Rising: "Bray-Shaman believe..." The bray shaman can believe whatever they want, but who is to say that the beastmen in the Reikland will take Altdorf?  It says right before it none have been able too.

Brassbull: "It is told..." These are stories.  Like most of the fluff, they are told from the perspective of Imperial citizens.  It says that the stories are corroborated by other sightings, but none of that is concrete.  You can be irritated if you don't like the style, but the fluff itself says nothing that isn't said in every other book.

Page 31:

This is the Gorthor story, the one and only story that actually involves the Beastmen getting their own smash-the-Empire tale.  It hasn't changed in 2 editions.  If you didn't have a problem with it before why now?  And you know what the worst part of the story is?  It didn't even go as well as a stupid goblin invasion led by Grom.  Gorthor gets killed by a stupid Elector Count, not even the Emperor!

Page 63:  Not sure why this story is so bad.  Because Khazrak won?  There is nothing in there that’s over the top by GW standards.  He outnumbered the Empire, used the ambush rule, and won.

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The Empire and Bretonnia have the most moronic knights ever.

The Empire knights got beaten in the same way those of Europe did during the time they began to fall out of use.  The Brettonians were stupid, as they are meant to be in their own fluff.  They are arrogant beyond imagination.  Of course they would try to move on the beastmen despite being in a bad position.  Not the first army to do that.  Ask the French at Agincourt.

I can see where you might not like the fluff, but to characterize it as being somehow different from every other book is just plain wrong.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Aldaris on February 09, 2010, 10:05:08 PM
Hey Philly, my man. No need to get all upset. There is still a lot of beastman love around. Siby seems to be seriously aroused for starters.
But all this talk about the fluff has made me want to read it for myself, so I'll at least get the book at some point. I have the previous one around here, and I loved the fluff in there. Especially the inscription on the Monolith honoring that champion of Nurgle. That was seriously awesome and reminded me of the feel of the "Realm of Chaos" books. Chilling, creepy and cool.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 09, 2010, 10:21:41 PM
Why not use the word ancient man, Philly? Primitive includes the idea of them being less developed, both mentally and technically, which ancient  man was not.
Why use such value ladened words when you got neutral ones instead? It is not about political correctness, but about what meaning words carry and what signals they send.

People in the 16th century, the ones you brings up, where definitely NOT primitive. They where, however, superstitious. Also, by having the beasties ruling the forests like they are said to do, it does not make any sense since people would be unable to hunt, gather firewood, damn, even travel.
And bandits would have no havens since the beasties would eat them for breakfast.

And Shadowlords points still stands. You can say "Oh, the bray shamans are just telling a stupid story!" but that is not the point. Of course they tell it as a story or vision, since that is the beast way of keeping things remembered. By stories. And bray shamans gets divine visions, so there should be nothing in there that makes the reader laugh and say "Yeah, dream on, little beastie!" I believe the normal army book reader will take that as face value. After all, are not the Bray shamans the onces with access to divine visions of the future? And since visions and such magical stuff works in the Warhammer world, why should a reader not take that as face value?

However, the funny thing is not that I get upset by your nonchalant use of words to bring up examples of modern mans superstitiousness, but that you get so upset when Shadowlord say he find the background crappy and badly written. Why is that so suddenly and upsetting thing? Because it is about your beloved beasties?
When I was upset about discrepancies in fluff about Empire or Wood elves, you just laugh at me and said it was nothing. But when Shadowlord get mildly annoyed about the new Beastmen book, you get up in arms.

We know you love the Beasties Philly. We know you love the competitive powerstyle of armies and that it will guide your reactions and replies and your opinions visavi the game and how armies should be made. Fluff is really of less concern to you, since you will twist it your own way to some extent if it does not please you and come up with your own stuff. That also makes me more confused about your reaction.

You like army list, Shadowlord does not like the fluff. What is the matter?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 09, 2010, 10:48:50 PM
This thread is going really crappy* people/beasts.
Some of y'all need to remember where you are, ie, not in the back table slugging it out.

*in a way, as personally I find some of this stuff hilarious, but lets be nice. Deliberately or just blindly misinterpreting someones point is annoying, as are personal attacks.

Siby seems to be seriously aroused for starters

That's just frightening.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Sig on February 09, 2010, 11:28:24 PM
You're looking for signals when there really are none, Mathi, and that is why you so often react badly to people's posts.

I find all Chaos fluff retardedly written. That this one is similar is no surprise. There are always good ideas, just horribly fleshed out. The Warhammer world fluff presents Chaos as being literally unstoppable. What's the point of that? It's like a small boy who can't handle his favourites being able to lose, so he writes it so they can't.

In 40k they always present the glimmer of hope. The Emperor might be fading but there are whispers of him being reborn if he truly dies and his spirit returns to the Warp. The Eldar will rise as Ynnead, god of the dead etc... that glimmer gives the conflict more gravitas than the Warhammer world's "in the end there will just be the Champion of Light, standing alone against the powers of darkness" or some crap to that effect.

Had a flip through the book, like the artwork, pity the doombull didn't get the classic minotaur hooves like the fantastic picture in his entry has. I still hate the models (though apart from his silly feet the doombull himself is fantastic, and the new Ungor are excellent) and find it a real pity they went from the evil ambush woodland types they were to a more horde flavoured army. I was looking forward to having things like working in a group of converted dryad/daemonettes as some evil parody of nymphs, drawing inspiration from the Trickster and his minions in the Thief series.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 09, 2010, 11:48:24 PM
Why not use the word ancient man, Philly? Primitive includes the idea of them being less developed, both mentally and technically, which ancient  man was not.
Why use such value ladened words when you got neutral ones instead? It is not about political correctness, but about what meaning words carry and what signals they send.

Honestly Mathi, stop.  You are being silly.  I wrote that while drinking my coffee this morning.  Take out the word 'primitive' and leave the rest, the point remains the same.  You really are strange sometimes.

Quote
People in the 16th century, the ones you brings up, where definitely NOT primitive. They where, however, superstitious. Also, by having the beasties ruling the forests like they are said to do, it does not make any sense since people would be unable to hunt, gather firewood, damn, even travel.
And bandits would have no havens since the beasties would eat them for breakfast.

Again drop the primitive line.  And there are plenty of spaces where the beasts aren't.  As stated in the fluff, which you still haven't read yet continue to comment on, there are lines about huntsmen moving through the woods and not realising they have approached a beast trail.  The woods aren't instant death, just as one can travel through the Troll lands and live.

Quote
And Shadowlords points still stands. You can say "Oh, the bray shamans are just telling a stupid story!" but that is not the point. Of course they tell it as a story or vision, since that is the beast way of keeping things remembered. By stories. And bray shamans gets divine visions, so there should be nothing in there that makes the reader laugh and say "Yeah, dream on, little beastie!" I believe the normal army book reader will take that as face value. After all, are not the Bray shamans the onces with access to divine visions of the future? And since visions and such magical stuff works in the Warhammer world, why should a reader not take that as face value?

Read the fluff, then comment.  All it says is the bray shamans think that Altdorf can't be far from falling.  Nothing about visions.  It is classic ambiguious story telling as seen in all of the books.  Grimgor thinks he can take down whatever he needs to as well, doesn't make it anymore true.  The Bray Shamans are as biased as anyone.

Quote
However, the funny thing is not that I get upset by your nonchalant use of words to bring up examples of modern mans superstitiousness, but that you get so upset when Shadowlord say he find the background crappy and badly written. Why is that so suddenly and upsetting thing? Because it is about your beloved beasties?

Not really, it isn't that he doesn't like it that bothers me, it is that he is so haphazard in what he dislikes.  There is plenty to not like about it.  I prefer most of the feel of the 6th edition book myself.  but Shadowlord has a tendancy to take an extreme reaction for effect, which I think he is doing in this case.  The book itself simply doesn't support his position.

Quote

When I was upset about discrepancies in fluff about Empire or Wood elves, you just laugh at me and said it was nothing. But when Shadowlord get mildly annoyed about the new Beastmen book, you get up in arms.

There is no discrepency here Mathi.  But you wouldn't know that since you haven't actually understood most of what this discussion has been about.  You really need to read the fluff before commenting on it.

Quote
We know you love the Beasties Philly. We know you love the competitive powerstyle of armies and that it will guide your reactions and replies and your opinions visavi the game and how armies should be made.

Err... Mathi, my armies are Orcs and Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms, and Beastmen.  Where in there is a power build to be found?  Seriously, do you connect the dots between the various threads?  I like efficiency, but I am also not one to take a real power list.  I take the armies I like the fluff for.  I then try to find a competitive build to use, not an extreme one.

Quote
Fluff is really of less concern to you, since you will twist it your own way to some extent if it does not please you and come up with your own stuff. That also makes me more confused about your reaction.

Honestly Mathi, this couldn't be further from my approach to the game.  There are over 7700 posts for you to plug through if you want to find that out for yourself since you obviously don't remember.  I have never been an advocate of powergaming.  Most of the time I simply tell people to use what they like.  If people are asking for actual advice, then I will steer them away from what sucks and towards what doesn't but we play a competitive/fun style in my area.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Finlay on February 10, 2010, 12:15:12 AM
However, judging by the fluff, and somewhat by the army choices, but mostly by the fluff it seems, I guess GW is trying to push the army towards guys with lack of girl/boyfriends.

LMAO.

Mathi, I love how you continue to argue about the fluff, purely from SL and Warlords views, without reading it yourself. Pretty poor methodology!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Siberius on February 10, 2010, 12:24:27 AM
Siby seems to be seriously aroused for starters

Because I am being nice? Or was I accidentally double-entreding things?



Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Grutch on February 10, 2010, 12:51:42 AM
Ahh... I run mine as an actual competitive army.  I have 5000 points worht of Beasts so I have plenty of options.

The helfire sword is great, but refused challenges and high armor saves are its bane.  The Lord only has S5 and WS6, so they don't do very well against wards and AS.

Phil

And I thought I felt guilty with 5000 points of chaos sitting in their sprues waiting to come out and play.

-Grutch
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 10, 2010, 01:08:11 AM
Now fluff arguments aside, lets look at how the army can actually play on the field.  There are honestly four styles you can shoot for:

1. Ambush Style:  Understanding the new ambush rule is key to this style.  Contrary to what we all thought before release, you do not need to field identical units to ambush things.  For every unit you deploy, you can drop another unit of its size or smaller of the same creature type.  Ungor skirmishers and ungor foot troops are interchangable for this purpose.  They and gor are the only ambushers.  Now the down side of this is that the beast army is not a horde army any longer in the traditional sense.  Its only horde model, ungor, are 5 points and sort of suck in combat.  Skirmishers are 6 and good, but not a combat unit, they are a harasmant type.  Gor are decent infantry, but too expensive at 8 points.  Still, they will do plenty of damage from flanks and rear and with a gorebull or a beastlord nearby, they will trash light to medium infantry of the T3 variety.

2. Chariot style - core chariots and special razorgor chariots mean this army will be the chariot army in the game.  They really were before this, but now its reaffirmed.  Some things to remember: normal chariots are immune to the dark elf assasin manhole cover assault due to their T4, so there is a hidden blessing.  Take a model which will guarantee those primal fury tests, like the Horn of the First Beast, and you will have one hell of an army.  It will fold like nothing to terror or fear causers, but massed they can roll alot of armies away.

3. The Monster list:  The monster list is basically both rares filled, all specials filled with minotaur and razorgor, and skirmishers to cover you from shooting with some chariots to support.  A head on list with lots of terror and fear and piles of pure hammers to dig through the enemy fire and see combat.

4.  The All Around - Beasts can't do this one like they used too.  You can't fill those rares with big things AND take minotaur AND take enough core and chariots to support them anymore.  Characters are too expensive, minotaur and the rares are amazingly expensive, no cheap core that can do anything anymore.  Still some variant of this will be the most well rounded, it will just be vastly different from what the army used to be.  It went from being horde to moderately elite, for better or for worse.

Here is an example of a 2250 Monster list I made:

Characters:

Beastlord - Razorgor Chariot, heavy armor, Brass Cleaver, Trollhide Armor, Many Limbed.  This model, including its driver, will get on average 4 S6, 9 S5, and 1 S4 all with hatred most of the time and d6 S5 impact hits.  Thats a pretty good start.  It is 376 points, so you pay for the privledge.

Shaman - 2 dispel scrolls 125

Core:

5 chariots - 400
8 ungor skirmishers with musician - 51
8 ungor skirmishers with musician - 51
8 ungor skirmishers with musician - 57

Special:

2 razorgor - 110
4 Minotaur - 252
4 Minotaur - 252

Rare:
1 Gorgon - 275
1 Jabber Scythe - 275

So the premise is the skirmishers form a wall out in front to protect the chariots and minotaur.  The Jabberscythe flies to cover and on turn two lands in the middle of the enemy army to get the full effect of his abilities.  The gorgon and the other models run straight ahead.  Chariots pair up with each other to ensure they can hit things well.  Each will have 3 S4 and 1 S5 rerollables (as long as they are within 12" of the general they are almost guarranteed) and the impact hits for a total of 2d6 S5 impacts and 6 S4 2 S5 attacks each.  Thats enough for most softer things and some harder ones.  The Razor chariot can operate by itself.

The minotaur are nasty.  With great weapons they will give 4 S5 auto hits, then 12 S7 attacks.  If 6 hit and 5 wound, plus the 3 wounds they will normally get from the impact hits, they will win most combats.  If the enemy doesn't run they frenzy anyway.  If they do run they frenzy too.  Now thats 16 S7 attacks.  If they stay its better.  Another round of victory will make them have 20 S7 attacks.  The problem of course is they are very open to damage.  But there are enough threats to keep the enemy honest.  The gorgon will operate in much the same fashion, but with the bonus that it is a terror model and is stubborn on a 10.  That helps.

Some varients are to add the Horn of the First Beast which will let the general project a 36" circle of rerolls for the army.  This is good, but with only 6 primal fury models which will fight, thats a tough sell.  Another is to drop both rares and take two more units of 4 minotaur.  Thats alot of threats.  Only the most gunlined army will be able to fire on 6 chariots and 4 units of minotaur to prevent them from hitting their line.

Grutch: That is one old post! Almost 2 years ago! :D

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 10, 2010, 01:38:12 AM
As far as ambushing goes, there's reason to believe (others, not myself) that one unit on the board can allow for X units to ambush.

I found that over on the Forum That Shall Not Be Named. So I wouldn't take it for what it's worth (which isn't very much with the level of idocy some of the posters over there possess).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 10, 2010, 01:41:22 AM
I wonder Taureus, do you label any forum as "the forum that does not exist" ? Then you'd have used both labels my club uses for two individuals.  :-D

PhillyT, Minotaurs are toughness 4, light armour and 3 wounds apiece right?

I would always go with great weapons for them. Always. Not only does this make the model look -so much better-, but strength 7 is a delight I rarely taste (I think recently I've only had it with Dragon Ogres). Plus who needs the +1 attack with all the impact hits and the frenzy bonus?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 10, 2010, 01:45:03 AM
Yeah, I have been thinking about that too.  But its pretty clear that it is referring to units, not necessarily total models.  The example isn't all that useful.  Who would drop a unit of 40 models?!?!

Dwhitey:  Yeah thats the stats on minotaur.  They are nasty with GW.  I thought about using them with AHW but the GW is too useful.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 10, 2010, 02:09:11 AM
Any forum I haven't visited doesn't exist as far as I am concerned!  :biggriin:

@PhillyT: I know the example isn't that great (40 Gor would be retarded, I am sure you can agree).

But the idea is that having a single unit of Gor (any size, bigger is better of course); that one unit will be allowing you to have multiple units ambushed.

So using the example: One unit of 40 Gor on the table during deployment. X units of <40 Gor ambushed.

So as long as you have one unit of any kind that is able to ambush on the board, if it's big enough, you would be able to ambush any smaller units of the same unit type.

I hope I am not being confusing...I will explain it more tomorrow though!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 10, 2010, 07:30:07 AM


1. Ambush Style:  Understanding the new ambush rule is key to this style.  Contrary to what we all thought before release, you do not need to field identical units to ambush things.  For every unit you deploy, you can drop another unit of its size or smaller of the same creature type.  Ungor skirmishers and ungor foot troops are interchangable for this purpose. 
Is it really creature type? I haven't got my book here but i am pretty sure it is unit type. So you can't put an ungor block on the table and a unit of skirmishers in ambush.

@Taureus: The drop x for 1 interpretation is discussed a lot, but most reasonable people dismiss it. The text itself is (as so often) specifically unclear. In the WD battle report they deployed one unit for each ambushing unit, which is a hint at how it is meant to be. But WD is also known to botch up rules in their reports, so there you go.
RAI must be that one unit is deployed for each ambushing one, because this rule is there to prevent an all-ambushing army. "I drop one block of Gor behind this forest and 15 blocks in ambush" is certainly not intended by the rule.

@PhillyT: Did you look up theshipping cost for the minotaurs?  :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Aldaris on February 10, 2010, 08:46:07 AM
Siby seems to be seriously aroused for starters

Because I am being nice? Or was I accidentally double-entreding things?
You threatened to savage people beastman-style and commented on Phillys taste.
 :wink:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 10, 2010, 08:55:35 AM
I can see where you might not like the fluff, but to characterize it as being somehow different from every other book is just plain wrong.

Don't be quick to accuse Mathi for not getting it when your mark hits the hot dog salesman on row 14...

If you can't see what I and Warlord, and a few other are seeing, then I can't help you any further. The three examples you detailed on the pages I mentioned does not depict the end of man as the Beastman book does. Kazrak is taking over the world, Altdorf will soon fall, and Talabheim will soon get a visit from a million minos.

It is just weak and sloppy writing and done to an excess not seen in any other book, Tyranids included.

So yes, it still suck egg.

The models, the list, and the rules however, are quite nice and while they do not warrant me to start the army, they make the book an average overall.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Justnorth on February 10, 2010, 09:17:08 AM
The tripe in the beastman book is written in the same standard as the rest of the army books, but the content is by far the worst I have read in a long time.

It's all the same since Bill KIng departed in 4th edition.
It looks and reads like it was written by kids, for kids, and as kids are the target market there really is no reason to whine about it.
GW are on their mark, they have identified their target market and they are hitting the target.
Job well done in economic terms, but not to my literary tastes either.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 10, 2010, 09:26:34 AM
It looks and reads like it was written by kids, for kids, and as kids are the target market there really is no reason to whine about it.

And I am the enemy here PhillyT?  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 10, 2010, 11:14:18 AM
I think that any time an argument involves really long posts with multi-quotes, it's a stupid argument.

And any time it doesn't, too.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 10, 2010, 11:38:33 AM
I long ago gave up on Justnorths warhammer opinions.

I really don't care if you don't like the fluff Shadowlord, I just don't like the fact that you are painting it in a false light.  It doesn't say there are a million minotaur, it mentions a thousand.  It doesn't say Khazrak will take over the world, he can't even beat a single Imperial Province convincingly.  And Altdorfs fall is only mentioned as a statement from a Bray-Shaman as what will happen in the future.  ALl of the evil races claim the good will fall.

The fluff isn't as extreme as you pretend it is.  It might suck to you and Warlord, but it isn't as endtimes as you say, nor is it unreasonable.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mogsam on February 10, 2010, 12:08:26 PM
I like these minotaurs more!

(http://www.sciborminiatures.com/i/2010/big/minotaurs_03.jpg)

http://www.sciborminiatures.com/en_,monstrous_news.php?id=867#i/2010/big/minotaurs_06.jpg (http://www.sciborminiatures.com/en_,monstrous_news.php?id=867#i/2010/big/minotaurs_06.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 10, 2010, 12:43:41 PM
Them are sweetlooking minos. Are you going to get some, Lord Panda?

Thinking of it, would it not be awesome with an army of giant pandas, commanded by the imfamous Lord Wu, with giant pandas making up the gors and bigger, and ungors being represented by the minor panda.  :icon_mrgreen:

And if you made such a force, it would be all the more awesome Mogsie!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 10, 2010, 01:05:37 PM
I really don't care if you don't like the fluff Shadowlord

I think you must care, or you wouldn't be posting such long defenses of it.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: DariusZero on February 10, 2010, 01:15:29 PM
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m670345a_Painting_Stage6b.jpg)

Is this not disturbing?!?( GW staff paints a minotaur's ass. ) :dry:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Aldaris on February 10, 2010, 01:19:28 PM
Shadowlord? THERE's your reason for getting a beastman army.

 :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 10, 2010, 01:23:30 PM
So is that what the Swedish minotaurs Mathi was talking about looked like?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 10, 2010, 01:54:12 PM
No, we swedes never did minotaurs. Who needs ém when you got bears? :closed-eyes:

Now, that pic DO disturb me... Minos in thongs... or even less...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 10, 2010, 02:30:04 PM
Are there still bears in Sweden? We killed all of ours long ago.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Finlay on February 10, 2010, 02:40:50 PM
holy sweet jesus

looks like a fricking rat mole

(http://i.livescience.com/images/061009_mole_rat_02.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 10, 2010, 02:44:44 PM
Yeah, we got bears here, and now the wolves have come back. We got lynx and wolverines aswell. Not strange you became such wankers, Rufus, when ain´t got any bears to wrestle!  :icon_razz:

@Finlay
I do it all for you, man!  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 10, 2010, 02:46:45 PM
Do you know what that word means? You are awfully keen on it for no apparent reason.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mogsam on February 10, 2010, 04:06:12 PM
I dunno.... I often find myself wanking over bear wrestling. It's just such a lost art. I hope you can bear with my self abuse sarcasm. And aweful, aweful pun.

Considering I was too cheap to buy the Lord Wu model and had to get someone to buy it for me I doubt a panda army is likely. Though I won't deny that I have thought of sculpting an Ogre into one. Then I realised I'm no where near that good yet.

Mogsam



Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Aldaris on February 10, 2010, 04:20:20 PM
I hope you can bear with my self abuse sarcasm.
Midaski? How did you get into Mogsams account?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Midaski on February 10, 2010, 05:55:39 PM
I hope you can bear with my self abuse sarcasm.
Midaski? How did you get into Mogsams account?

Mogsam shows promise ........ give him another twenty five years and he might be worthy  :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 10, 2010, 06:17:32 PM
Shadowlord? THERE's your reason for getting a beastman army.

 :icon_lol:

 :icon_lol:

Most awesome mini ever! After the pumbagor that is...

I really don't care if you don't like the fluff Shadowlord, I just don't like the fact that you are painting it in a false light. 

Should I care?

No matter what you try to tell the rest of the Beast possé, the fluff and content of the new book is just utter crap and the sloppiest work in any army book or codex in many years. Saying that it is false light is a weak attempt to try to stir the discussion in your favor, and make the sludge taste better than the foul slime it really is.

Good luck with that!

But I will leave the fluff alone, after all this is a game, and let the others who play beasts decide for themselves.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 10, 2010, 07:33:37 PM
@Taureus: The drop x for 1 interpretation is discussed a lot, but most reasonable people dismiss it. The text itself is (as so often) specifically unclear. In the WD battle report they deployed one unit for each ambushing unit, which is a hint at how it is meant to be. But WD is also known to botch up rules in their reports, so there you go.
RAI must be that one unit is deployed for each ambushing one, because this rule is there to prevent an all-ambushing army. "I drop one block of Gor behind this forest and 15 blocks in ambush" is certainly not intended by the rule.

Firstly, I wasn't purporting that the X:1 reading of the special rule was correct. (the original idea is from 'The Forum That Shall Not Be Named' after all) I was merely trying to make an argument for it in support of PhillyT here.  :laugh:

I know it's most likely meant to be a 1:1 ratio, otherwise it's a lot more powerful than it was in 6th edition.

And yes, WD gets rules confused at times. I can't remember the last time they botched something, but it created a bit of a hubbub on 'The Forum That Shall Not Be Named'.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 10, 2010, 09:17:05 PM
No matter what you try to tell the rest of the Beast possé, the fluff and content of the new book is just utter crap and the sloppiest work in any army book or codex in many years. Saying that it is false light is a weak attempt to try to stir the discussion in your favor, and make the sludge taste better than the foul slime it really is.

Honestly couldn't care less if the discussion is in my favor.  I have nothing to prove to the community.  There are 7700 posts they can pick from to determine the direction I go in.  It was more the fact that you seem to have a goofy vendetta against the fluff.  It isn't particularly good, not bad, but nothing brilliant.  The 6th edition book was better in style, though this one adds some interesting thing.

What I am more interested in is letting people read it and make up their own minds absent outside interferrance.  Of course you have every right to voice you opinion, which you have.  Thank you for your contribution.

Quote
But I will leave the fluff alone, after all this is a game, and let the others who play beasts decide for themselves.

Exactly.

As for the minotaur, I am making greenstuff testicles to dangle behind the loincloth.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 10, 2010, 09:24:53 PM
Stop your bickering and get along, kiddos...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 10, 2010, 09:52:18 PM
Stop your bickering and get along, kiddos...

Can't! I hate the man after our last bed encounter.

Headache, my ass...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Justnorth on February 11, 2010, 06:56:27 AM
I like these minotaurs more!

(http://www.sciborminiatures.com/i/2010/big/minotaurs_03.jpg)

http://www.sciborminiatures.com/en_,monstrous_news.php?id=867#i/2010/big/minotaurs_06.jpg (http://www.sciborminiatures.com/en_,monstrous_news.php?id=867#i/2010/big/minotaurs_06.jpg)

Excellent find Mogsam, thanks for the link.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 11, 2010, 07:40:25 AM
Here is a balanced list I have come up with - mainly because I have most of the models to build this (what base size is a Razagor - for those who have bought one?)

2250pts

HEROES
BEASTLORD (goes in UnGor or Gor)
HA, GW
Chaos Gift of +2AS
Chaos Gift of Stubborn

WARGOR BSB (goes in UnGor or Gor)
HA, S
Totem of Rust (Banner of-1AS 6", -2AS combat)

SHAMAN L2
Horn of D6+1 movement 36" PL3

SHAMAN L2
Herdstone item

CORE
24 Gors w Shields, Full Command
10 Gors w extra hand weapon, Musician (ambush)
26 Ungors, Musician + Standard
10 Ungors, Musician (ambush)
2 x 5 Ungor Raiders with Musician (1 ambush)
2 Chariots
2 x 5 Hounds

SPECIAL
2 Razagor Herd
2 Razagor Herd
10 Bestigor with Champion

RARE
2 Chaos Spawn
1 Cygor

What do you think? Problem is, I approach most lists like an Empire player - so I'm not sure if it can even compete, but it feels pretty good at the moment.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 11, 2010, 07:46:55 AM
Razorgor are on 50mm bases.

Making them the first "monstrous" infantry unit. In base size, not wound pool.

Edit: And the ambush rule doesn't allow for Ungor Skirmishers to ambush with a unit of regular Ungor on the board. :(
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadoweyed on February 11, 2010, 09:50:03 AM
I was wondering what people's thoughts were on Ghoros. He makes Centigors Core and I have debating taking him, even though I don't like to take special characters.

Also, Harpies, are they on 20mm bases? I'm assuming as much, but I am never sure with flyers, even infantry like flyers.

-Shadoweyed
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 11, 2010, 11:20:54 AM
26 Ungors, Musician + Standard
10 Ungors, Musician (ambush)
2 x 5 Ungor Raiders with Musician (1 ambush)

Edit: And the ambush rule doesn't allow for Ungor Skirmishers to ambush with a unit of regular Ungor on the board. :(

Are you referring to my list, or just in general?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 11, 2010, 11:33:04 AM
HEROES
BEASTLORD (goes in UnGor or Gor)
HA, GW
Chaos Gift of +2AS
Chaos Gift of Stubborn

Not bad.

Quote
WARGOR BSB (goes in UnGor or Gor)
HA, S
Totem of Rust (Banner of-1AS 6", -2AS combat)

I would go with the BEast Banner or the one which removes leadership.   That or drop the HA, since it will do nothing for him.  Remember the banner of rust removes 2 points of AS from the unit carrying it!

Quote
SHAMAN L2
Horn of D6+1 movement 36" PL3

Remember, the beastial surge doesn't allow units to charge, it only moves them up against enemy units, which sort of makes it suck.

Quote
SHAMAN L2
Herdstone item

Not a bad item, but something like the hagtree fetish is a better choice.  The herbstone one requires the models stay right on top of the thing and not get to a postion where they can cast their spells.

Quote
CORE
24 Gors w Shields, Full Command
10 Gors w extra hand weapon, Musician (ambush)
26 Ungors, Musician + Standard
10 Ungors, Musician (ambush)
2 x 5 Ungor Raiders with Musician (1 ambush)
2 Chariots
2 x 5 Hounds

Okay, but are you only ambushing the two units of 10?  Also, hounds are really bad now.

Quote
SPECIAL
2 Razagor Herd
2 Razagor Herd
10 Bestigor with Champion

Why 10 bestigor with no banner?

Quote
RARE
2 Chaos Spawn
1 Cygor

Chaos spawn are terrible, and cygor are highly questionable.  What is it you are liking about him?

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 11, 2010, 12:47:27 PM
Warlord, your list is probably "underbalanced". PhillyT already mentioned some points, here are some more:
-banner of rust: If you really want to take it give the gors AHW, not the shield and put the BSB there. Otherwise you have no unit that won't use it's AS by the banner.

-lack of killyness: I think your list has not enough punch. The characters are not really tooled for combat, the beastlord is OK but could be harder. The two units of razors need to stay very close to the general otherwise they will panic off very fast. Even if they don't run, one razor is shot down quickly and the surviving one can only serve as support afterwards. The bestigor on their own won't stand up against anything killy and have no passive CR as soon as one gets shot.
The Cygor is also the least killy monster available. You  built for stability, but seriously lack breaker units.

- no unit for the shamen. The shamen have no protection, they need to stay at the shard if you take it and can only join a unit of ungor raiders for protection. And these are too small to be effective bodyguards.


The list looks nice and is probably nice to look at on the table, but sadly it is rather weak.

 
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 11, 2010, 01:23:28 PM
I did not know that about the banner of rust.
And I did not know that about the horn either.
Should have read those magic item descriptions better.

I am ambushing 2 units of 10, and 1 of 5. These were larger, but I had to drop 5 from each to fit the army into 2250. And I am not dropping the hounds - I crave multiple redundancy and flexibuility in most of my lists. Besides, they are decent screens and diverters.

I don't intend the Bestigor to stand on their own - I planned to use them as hard hitting flankers.

As for the shaman, I was planning on floating them between the gors, ungors, and ungor raiders (non-ambushing varieties). I really don't know where is best to put them. What are other people's ideas on the matter?

And I want the Chaos Spawn because I want to get some FenBeasts and use those - so purely theme reasons.
Cygor I like because I can shoot with him before I get to combat. Plus he is movement 7, so 3D6 pursuit is attractive. I am also including him for theme also.

Like I said, I build lists like an Empire player, so the punch I want from the Razagors are in flanking moves like nilla knights. I realise the Gors and Ungors won't last as long as our infantry - but thats the way I like to play wth pretty much any list I pick up (bad I know).

I am going to have to make a few changes as I did not know that about the magic items - especially the banner of rust - damn!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 11, 2010, 01:26:33 PM
Are you referring to my list, or just in general?

Curse my eyes at almost 3am!

I could have sworn there wasn't a (1 ambush) after the ungor Skirmishers... :eusa_wall:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: FR1DAY on February 11, 2010, 05:07:37 PM
Jabberwhatver model

http://theminiaturespage.com/news/710770/ (http://theminiaturespage.com/news/710770/)

Just like the picture
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 11, 2010, 05:31:36 PM
Looks like a rabbit raped a dragon...  :icon_confused:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Lord Karnik on February 11, 2010, 05:40:55 PM
or maybe the other way around, I think a rabbit could dive right in body and all and it still would not be rape
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Justnorth on February 11, 2010, 07:04:36 PM
Jabberwhatver model

http://theminiaturespage.com/news/710770/ (http://theminiaturespage.com/news/710770/)

Just like the picture
 

Fantastic old model.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 11, 2010, 07:04:50 PM
So after reading through the rules for the second time I can see where this army lacks (no doubt it is deliberate with 8th in mind and the failures of DoC and VC) staying power.

The leadership of many units is a joke, especially the Bestigors without a character (the fluff here is worse than the Halberd one in the Empire book). In fact most of the units won't be able to deal with a lot of panic test without saying hello to the table board. Looks like a few of the special characters may be needed (but I dunno since I just read through these once).

How do you beast players deal with the loss of the reroll (undivided)?

Leaders like the Beastlord is quite a given because a general with LD8, which you get with the Doombull, and so few normal non monster units without Stubborn and ItP abilities, I can see some serious breakdown. Especially if you play fast moving with flanking tactics, which will derail you from the precious leadership of the general. You have a talent that gives you stubborn but that does not help with panic tests.

That does not mean the list is weak, but speed is of the essence and the units needs to get to their target fast to get the many nice bonuses combat gives them. Of course a smart general will deploy further back because I can not see how, for instance, an ambush of small gor or ungor forces will do any real damage (they can easily be shot since they lack the skirmish rule).

That is if they even get to the original point in the first place.

I see a better use for Harpies when it comes to warmachine hunting etc. And a use of the chalice at the right moment.

Of course no doubt, most tourney lists will be very few gors, and a huge amount of monters and skirmish ungors.

Yuk...  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 11, 2010, 09:18:04 PM
I did not know that about the banner of rust.
And I did not know that about the horn either.
Should have read those magic item descriptions better.

Yeah they are weird.

Quote
I am ambushing 2 units of 10, and 1 of 5. These were larger, but I had to drop 5 from each to fit the army into 2250.

Really not alot of ambushers to count on.  I would have at least 5 at 2250.

Quote
And I am not dropping the hounds - I crave multiple redundancy and flexibuility in most of my lists. Besides, they are decent screens and diverters.

Skirmishing ungor are far better.  Hounds are too expensive and have such terrible leadership...

Quote
I don't intend the Bestigor to stand on their own - I planned to use them as hard hitting flankers.

Way better choices in the list for that roll.  They don't hit hard enough for their point value.

Quote
As for the shaman, I was planning on floating them between the gors, ungors, and ungor raiders (non-ambushing varieties). I really don't know where is best to put them. What are other people's ideas on the matter?

Thats not a bad thing to do with them.  Adding them to a unit of ungor skirmishers might work better.


Quote
And I want the Chaos Spawn because I want to get some FenBeasts and use those - so purely theme reasons.

Stick them on a 50mm base and they make fine razorgor.  Make one where you can take them off and add them on so they can still go on 40mm ones.

Quote
Cygor I like because I can shoot with him before I get to combat. Plus he is movement 7, so 3D6 pursuit is attractive. I am also including him for theme also.

That M7 idea is a good point, but he is so soft and so lacking in any sort of defense.  I would take a gorgon way before bothering with him.

Quote
Like I said, I build lists like an Empire player, so the punch I want from the Razagors are in flanking moves like nilla knights. I realise the Gors and Ungors won't last as long as our infantry - but thats the way I like to play wth pretty much any list I pick up (bad I know).

Used right they are great.  I would minimize the ungor since they suck.  Certainyl don't use 26 of them.  WAY too much for such a terrible unit.  They are so expensive, you can't use them like goblins.  Gor are where you want to go.  Take tons of 10 man ungor units and ambush half of them.  Run 4 ambush two.

For flankers, take minotaur or razorgor.  Razorgor are great fast flankers, as are centigor.  Both will do that job.  Minotaur will crush almost everything.  Gorgons will do well too, but aren't as efficient.  If you really want to use alot of infantry, pick up 5 chariots and that will add a serious punch.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: FR1DAY on February 11, 2010, 10:27:15 PM
So after reading through the rules for the second time I can see where this army lacks (no doubt it is deliberate with 8th in mind and the failures of DoC and VC) staying power.

The leadership of many units is a joke, especially the Bestigors without a character (the fluff here is worse than the Halberd one in the Empire book). In fact most of the units won't be able to deal with a lot of panic test without saying hello to the table board. Looks like a few of the special characters may be needed (but I dunno since I just read through these once).

How do you beast players deal with the loss of the reroll (undivided)?

Leaders like the Beastlord is quite a given because a general with LD8, which you get with the Doombull, and so few normal non monster units without Stubborn and ItP abilities, I can see some serious breakdown. Especially if you play fast moving with flanking tactics, which will derail you from the precious leadership of the general. You have a talent that gives you stubborn but that does not help with panic tests.



Its almost like you have to be a good general to use the army  :icon_rolleyes:

Must be a bad deal!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 12, 2010, 12:25:40 AM
Thanks for the feedback so far guys. All of it has been very useful, and I feel a bit more comfortable with the list now, though am still unsure. Phil, I can't let go of having two bit units of infantry - I know the Ungors aren't fantastic, however I feel multiple small units would be worse - even if they do skirmish. How would they be used in a useful way?

Anyway, here is my updated list, changes from previous marked in blue.

2250pts

HEROES
BEASTLORD (goes in Gor)
HA, GW
Chaos Gift of +2AS
Chaos Gift of Stubborn

GOREBULL BSB (goes in UnGor)
HA, S
Banner of-1Ld 6"

SHAMAN L2
Item of Rain -1 hit, 4+shoot, one shooting phase

SHAMAN L2
Herdstone item

CORE
24 Gors w Shields, Full Command(Beastlord goes here)
10 Gors w extra hand weapon, Musician (ambush)
26 Ungors, Musician + Standard (Gorebull goes here)
10 Ungors, Musician (ambush)
2 x 5 Ungor Raiders with Musician (1 ambush)
2 Chariots
2 x 5 Hounds

SPECIAL
2 Razagor Herd
3 Minotaurs
5 Centigors

RARE
1 Cygor

I don't want to drop the Cygor - he sits just right for me, and I want to play a few games before I decide between him or the giant.
The hounds I treat the same as the ungor skirmishers however with higher movement. This is why I like them so. Moved the Fenbeasts over to Razagors - though I do think the Unbreakable ability of the spawn could be handy - will have to see about this one.
Got rid of the Bestigors - I do agree about their ridiculous price, but I wasn't sure what others thought - now I do. Added Centigors in their place.
The Gorebull I am putting in the Ungor unit to make them hittier and maybe even win some combats - they aren't that different to our spearmen afterall - except no extra rank of attack. I just can't play without at least 2 units of ranked infantry - unless you can convince me of just how good units of 10 ungors can be...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 12, 2010, 02:03:42 AM
Thanks for the feedback so far guys. All of it has been very useful, and I feel a bit more comfortable with the list now, though am still unsure. Phil, I can't let go of having two bit units of infantry - I know the Ungors aren't fantastic, however I feel multiple small units would be worse - even if they do skirmish. How would they be used in a useful way?

It isn't the MSU aspect that is appealing, it is the ability to ambush more of them.  The regular unit you drop in your deployment would just watch a flank and hold a board quarter.  The issue with ungor is this:  They are not worth their 5 points when gor are only 8.  As units, the best way to drop them are as bowmen or ambushers.  A unit of 10 ungor with shields will be a serious threat for any warmachine and will even grab flank charges. Archer units will struggle to stop them if they can get right up on them.  On the otherhand, as a unit of 26, they are worthless since they have no armor and no hitting power.

Quote
Anyway, here is my updated list, changes from previous marked in blue.

2250pts

HEROES
BEASTLORD (goes in Gor)
HA, GW
Chaos Gift of +2AS
Chaos Gift of Stubborn

I really think there are better ways of equipping him than the stubborn gift.  It looks like it will be great, but when you think of how the army works, all offense all the time, it is hard to justify. Take a look at the brass cleaver and put him in a razor chariot.  Thats nasty.  And you still have 70 points of other items.

Quote
GOREBULL BSB (goes in UnGor)
HA, S
Banner of-1Ld 6"

Gorebull is wasted on ungor.  What about chariot mount for the beastlord and put the gorebull in with the gor.  Swap the LD banner for the BEast banner.  Now the gor have S4 and 3 attacks, meaning on average they will be dropping 12 S4 and he will add 5 S6 (or 6 if you give him an additional hand weapon which I would).  Then this unit will be a wrecking machine.  As an added surprise, you can scare the crap out of people by charging out of it if need be for d3 S6 impacts and the 6 S6 regular attacks plus the BSB bonus.

Quote
SHAMAN L2
Item of Rain -1 hit, 4+shoot, one shooting phase

You MUST take the hagtree fetish.  It is the criminally underpriced item for armies using magic attacks.

Quote
SHAMAN L2
Herdstone item

Still say NO WAY to the herdstone shard.  You can't leave the shaman in your deployment zone.  They need to get out there.  The best list for them is death, especially with the hagtree fetish.  Get them out there and kill something!

Quote
CORE
24 Gors w Shields, Full Command(Beastlord goes here)
10 Gors w extra hand weapon, Musician (ambush)
26 Ungors, Musician + Standard (Gorebull goes here)
10 Ungors, Musician (ambush)
2 x 5 Ungor Raiders with Musician (1 ambush)
2 Chariots
2 x 5 Hounds

Still just not.  What are you shooting for with this army?  How do you envision it working?

Quote
SPECIAL
2 Razagor Herd
3 Minotaurs
5 Centigors

This is good, though the more minoatur and razors the better.

Quote
RARE
1 Cygor

Try him out, but you will find the same issues as the other players at the herdstone have been.  He can't do much with his rocks, he is only LD8 as opposed to the LD10 of the giant and gorgon, and he is too weak to really pull his wieght in combat, and not stubborn enough to really stick around to slow things down.

Quote
I don't want to drop the Cygor - he sits just right for me, and I want to play a few games before I decide between him or the giant.

The gorgon is what you are really looking for.  M7 LD10 stubborn and a world of agony in combat.  What he hits, he will kill.  And he will keep getting more and more attacks as he does it.

Quote
The hounds I treat the same as the ungor skirmishers however with higher movement. This is why I like them so.

Only issue is they can't fight anything in the game.  There really is nothing that they can attack that they can survive.

Quote
Moved the Fenbeasts over to Razagors - though I do think the Unbreakable ability of the spawn could be handy - will have to see about this one.

It can be, but the rest of the army is SO fast that they get left behind.

Quote
Got rid of the Bestigors - I do agree about their ridiculous price, but I wasn't sure what others thought - now I do. Added Centigors in their place.

Bestigor make the perfect place to stick the gorebull.

Quote
The Gorebull I am putting in the Ungor unit to make them hittier and maybe even win some combats - they aren't that different to our spearmen afterall - except no extra rank of attack. I just can't play without at least 2 units of ranked infantry - unless you can convince me of just how good units of 10 ungors can be...

Take units of 18 -24 gor 6 wide.  They will be good enough.  Ungor are just not worth it in blocks.  In smaller units of ambushers thats another story.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 12, 2010, 05:45:18 AM
Theres a guy at my LGs that using a block of 15 Hounds, 5x3 the whole thing about it is it looks scary and draws large amounts of fire and magic.

Meanwhile his warriors (and now beasties) get through T1-2 almost unscathed, until you realize that unit of 15 hounds was worth jack all.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 12, 2010, 09:30:17 PM
Yeah, within the context of this book they absolutely suck.  If they could ambush there would be an argument.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadoweyed on February 13, 2010, 01:50:47 AM
I was looking at it and for a Doombull I would have to say that I would end up with

Doombull;
Brass Cleaver, Ramhorn Helm, Gore Tusks and Gnarled Hide
Heavy Armor and Shield


1+ Armor Save
5 Str 6 AP Attacks base
4-5 Str 6 AP Attacks from the Cleaver
However many Armor Saves he succeeds Str 6 AP Attacks from the Helm.

Think he would be worth the points and losing the leadership?

I'm sure this was mentioned, but I didn't go back far enough to find it.

-Shadoweyed
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 13, 2010, 02:22:40 AM
First on the mino with the brass cleaver:  The brass cleaver will yeild a maximum of 4 attacks, since thats the most models the doombull can get into base to base with.  Only the chariot allows for the full 4 consistantly.  Most of the time the thing will only give 3 at the most.  That said, keep in mind doombull has frenzy meaning he is base 6 attacks.  Thats a total of 9.  Now I like that, but what I prefer is the axes of khorgor.

My build:  axes of khorgor, gouge tusk, gnarl hide, ram horn, shield, and heavy armor.  2+ AS, 7 S6 AP attacks which he gets to reroll.  I will always lose a couple attacks when you have that many for the chance to reroll misses.  He will be getting more attacks with each victory anyway! 

Another build:  axes of khorgor, Trollhide armor, and the uncanny sense.  More surviveable against things which are a legitimate threat, but does have the same offensive potential, or defense against weaker lucky hits.

The Doombull is savage, but it is tough to argue agaisnt the Beastlord thanks to his leadership and the synergy it brings to Primal Fury.  Put him in a Razor chariot and he is as dangerous offensively (mostly).  On the other hand, a doombull in a bestigor or Razorgor herd is absoultely nasty given the frenzy he brings.

I can see great builds with both.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 13, 2010, 06:30:22 AM
"Axes of Khornegor" makes one think they are two weapons...And would not work with a shield...

But I wasn't paying careful attention to the book while I was reading it, so it could just be a fluff thing.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 13, 2010, 09:01:46 AM
Axes of Khorgor need two hands, it's in the description.

Concerning chaos hounds: I do see a place for them. Thei advantage over ungor is, that they are faster. That way, they can walk in front of minotaurs and divert cavalry that would otherwise attack and decimate the minos. If they get shot into panic they just run through the minos (that should be frenzied by a character and thus not give a damn on the hounds).
Or you put them alone on the flank, again to divert enemy cavalry that wants to get round your flank.

It really sucks they can't ambush, but i still think a unit or two of hounds are viable.

PhillyT, i was surprised by your statement that 10 man units of gor better to ambush than soome ungor. By the stats they surely are, but is it affordable?
You'd need at least 4 units of 10 Gor to get two of them into ambush and that's 320+ points. Compared to 200+ for the same amount of ungors or a mere 120 points for four units of skirmishers.

I see that the big advantage is that gor can actually attack something, but the list is so tight for points that ambushing gor will cost a unit of hitters and i don't think that is a good trade-off.
But i will try that too, would love to find a viable place for gor in my lists!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Phantom of the Eurobash on February 13, 2010, 10:14:22 AM
Too many horns on those things to I like them.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 13, 2010, 11:33:22 AM
Axes of Khorgor need two hands, it's in the description.

Yes, but you can still use a shield when shot at or against magic missles.

Quote
Concerning chaos hounds: I do see a place for them. Thei advantage over ungor is, that they are faster. That way, they can walk in front of minotaurs and divert cavalry that would otherwise attack and decimate the minos. If they get shot into panic they just run through the minos (that should be frenzied by a character and thus not give a damn on the hounds).

You don't put gorebulls or doombulls in minotaur units.  It is a redundant placement.  They aren't significantly better than the minotaur they replace.  The issue with hounds running through minotaur is that there only needs to be 3 left for the unit to take a panic test.  Also, it is far easier to force someone to charge at an odd angle with skirmishing ungor than it is to have them go after hounds.  The speed of hounds will let them stay out in front of minotaur without the minotaur slowing down, but the only sue that they have ever had is to put a blinder on a frenzied unit.  That doesn't really work any more.

Quote
Or you put them alone on the flank, again to divert enemy cavalry that wants to get round your flank.

Why not just use ungor skirmishers who can rally with two more points of leadership and shoot at things plus ignore most terrain types?

Quote
PhillyT, i was surprised by your statement that 10 man units of gor better to ambush than soome ungor. By the stats they surely are, but is it affordable?
You'd need at least 4 units of 10 Gor to get two of them into ambush and that's 320+ points. Compared to 200+ for the same amount of ungors or a mere 120 points for four units of skirmishers.
Quote

Yeah I agree.  They are worlds better in combat though.  I would only do it in a super ambush heavy list.  I would probably drop a unit of 10 gor for every unit of ranked gor I wanted to field.  Might as well, too good an option to refuse.  And if you are in an area which allows SC, take Khazrak EVERYTIME!  HE is great for his points and those ambush rerolls would rock if ambushing 5 or more units.

Quote
I see that the big advantage is that gor can actually attack something, but the list is so tight for points that ambushing gor will cost a unit of hitters and i don't think that is a good trade-off.
But i will try that too, would love to find a viable place for gor in my lists!

There is something to be said for dropping one unit of hitters or a rare monster for a pile of support infantry.  I look at it this way:  If 100 gor runs 800 points, and 100 ungor run 600, thats not too bad.  Thats barely more than 2 units of 4 minotaur!  You can drop 50 gor for 400, not counting musicians and banners.  It wouldn't kill a list to do so, but you bring up a great point, the new beastmen can't just mix and match like they used too.  They are forced to make some hard choices now.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 13, 2010, 11:50:11 AM
Its almost like you have to be a good general to use the army  :icon_rolleyes:

Wow, you found a way to use the rolling smiley. Impressive!

This army is great in CC, but otherwise I see some serious pit traps sprung with low LD and expensive frenzy units.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 13, 2010, 01:44:58 PM
the new beastmen can't just mix and match like they used too.  They are forced to make some hard choices now.

Agreed. It is a tight list - and I'm not quite sure why.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 13, 2010, 01:51:52 PM
A list that forces you to make difficult choices is good though.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Finlay on February 13, 2010, 02:01:20 PM
Yep, which is my biggest whinge with Empire really.

Too many redundant choices.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 13, 2010, 02:02:59 PM
Agreed there, Finlay and Rufus. When you make different choices in an Empire list, you sort of know your are making competitively stupid choices.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 13, 2010, 04:03:23 PM
or unfluffy ones...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: FR1DAY on February 13, 2010, 04:18:34 PM
Good come back shadowlord!
You just constantly moan that its not a point and click army.
Nothing wrong with actually being a good general and having to work and think for your victories.
If you see the limitations as a challenge that army can and will work.
You're good at painting there is no doubt but generalship?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 13, 2010, 04:41:18 PM
You just constantly moan that its not a point and click army.

You must have me mixed up with someone else.  :icon_lol:

Quote
Nothing wrong with actually being a good general and having to work and think for your victories.

So, where's Watson when you need him?

Quote
You're good at painting there is no doubt but generalship?

So if someone brings up strength and weaknesses of an army, you assume they are lousy generals?

Look you made me laugh a second time ->  :icon_lol:

Beasts suffers from low leadership, unreliable ambush, expensive units, and similar builds.

They excel at close combat, have excellent selection of special and rare choices, and are more exciting than the earlier book model wise IMO.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 13, 2010, 05:35:35 PM
meh I don't think it's as bad as Shadow says but I follow his meaning.

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 13, 2010, 05:53:20 PM
meh I don't think it's as bad as Shadow says but I follow his meaning.

Oh, I do not think they are bad, but like with all armies bar the one we all know can't be defeated, there are some weaknesses an opponent can take advantage of.

The fluff, then yes that's bad.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 13, 2010, 10:31:39 PM
Contrary to what Warseer thinks, beastmen have some weaknesses that can be exploited.  Like every army other than demons.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 13, 2010, 11:00:17 PM
I thought minotaurs were only doing 1 impact each, apparently it's d3  :-o
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: FR1DAY on February 13, 2010, 11:26:19 PM
That's the first ratioal post you've had in this thread. Glad to see a bit of baiting can achieve it.

Glad its all settled down now.

P.s. I don't need watson I've got the trophies on the wall.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 13, 2010, 11:54:25 PM
That's the first ratioal post you've had in this thread.

You roll a dice and read the post that comes up?

"Oh noes, someone does not die of love when reading the new beastmen book - quick, let's get witty!"

I thought minotaurs were only doing 1 impact each, apparently it's d3  :-o

What? Only the heroes and lords do 1d3.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 14, 2010, 12:01:41 AM
Phew, that's alright then.

I was going by an article on GW's site.

Quote
The Minotaurs are the spearhead of the force, advancing forward to single out enemy cavalry and small elite units. There are ten Strength 5 Attacks in this herd, not including the D3 Impact Hits when they charge (from each Minotaur), and this increases by 3 Attacks for every combat round the Minotaurs win!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 14, 2010, 12:05:48 AM
I was going by an article on GW's site.

It's best not to believe those.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 14, 2010, 12:09:58 AM
I'm young and naďve!  :-(
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 14, 2010, 05:08:58 AM

GW's preferred customer !
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Merrick on February 14, 2010, 09:22:25 AM
I'm young and naďve!  :-(


GW's preferred customer !


Hi.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 14, 2010, 10:49:47 AM
GW's preferred customer !

 :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: FR1DAY on February 14, 2010, 11:13:41 AM
Not sure I know what you mean shadowlord? Didn't say random?
Just your negative wave you're throwing out. All armies have weakness and strength as you pointed out in your rational post.
Besides your easy to mess with!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 14, 2010, 11:24:27 AM
Just your negative wave you're throwing out.

Ha ha ha... I am usually jumped on for doing the exact opposite.  :icon_lol:

Fluff and rules ain't the same, one is the background and the other requires tactical accumen, some dice, and probably a few brain cells to get them all together (unless you play Daemons). When you learn the difference, let me know, and we can continue the discussion about the beastmen on a mature sexy level. See what I am getting at here?

Beastmen - hate the written fluff, think the list is average, and love the models.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 14, 2010, 01:03:46 PM
You know I think the list is perfect. You can tailor it up to make it quite a nasty and strong list, tailor it down to be easy for your opponent and anything in between.

BTW Daemons can be beaten guys...

Anway back to Madagascar 2

TBH I really like the beasts list and models.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: jturner on February 14, 2010, 01:51:50 PM
I don't like the new minotaurs at all.  Maybe it's the 'ropey' paint job on them. I also wish they had the angled leg look of the gors/ungors.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 14, 2010, 04:01:23 PM
Concerning the razorgor, I found this on another forum and must say I agree with the writer (in hindsight) :

"
I honestly take offence with all the hate being slung at the Razorgor since its release. I'm the original conceptartist for this sculpture (which, for your information, has beenpraised by the GW Studio heads and the entire 'Eavy Metal crew) and thesculptor followed my sketches meticulously, with great results. Itsaddens me that true miniature art won't be appreciated by the whiningmasses of the Internet while they drool over boring paintjobs and lazysculpting.

I hope all of you will think twice the next timeyou'll comment on this fantastic, highly detailed 13-piece miniature,and hopefully I have changed the minds of some people here.

(A sample sketch I drew can be seen here (http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll179/Idiomorphic/GW_Razorgor_conc1-080716.jpg), for anyone interested.)"                                 
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Finlay on February 14, 2010, 04:10:21 PM
 :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 14, 2010, 04:52:35 PM
Wow, as I suspected the over-sensitive BS is still alive and kicking on the web...  :icon_wink:

I'll chime in with Finlay here -  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 14, 2010, 06:50:52 PM
BTW Daemons can be beaten guys...

Stop ruining what can be a legend!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Sig on February 14, 2010, 07:01:25 PM
The concept sketch is awesome :D
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 14, 2010, 09:39:58 PM
That was funny.

I wish they had made it like the amazing picture located in the BEastbook where they discuss the models statistics.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 14, 2010, 10:43:09 PM
I wish they had made it like the amazing picture located in the BEastbook where they discuss the models statistics.

Just like the majority of the excellent artwork, I can't but agree.

Having seen the razorgor from the otherside, one can wonder what crazed idea Aly had when he sculpted the side we see on the box cover.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 15, 2010, 05:05:33 AM
Not to shit all over the 'Eavy Metal guys, but the paintjob on the Razorgor sucks hardcore...

Case and point: Prime paintjob.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/DarkMaw/Pumbaagor1.jpg)

EDIT: Yes, there are small cosmetic conversions. Noticeably the eyelids. And the spines on the back.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Sig on February 15, 2010, 05:47:15 AM
They're still crap though, those horrible club tails held up almost like scorpion stingers, combined with the tusks are just awful. It's like Gary Morley and Aly Morrison had a competition to see who could sculpt the worse model.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 15, 2010, 06:58:18 AM
That small conversion on the eye is what makes to model much better. These are actually OK. Still ugly chaos mutants, but in a way a chos mutant is expected to be ugly.
But still not worth that amount of money imo.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Justnorth on February 15, 2010, 07:31:10 AM
They're still crap though, those horrible club tails held up almost like scorpion stingers, combined with the tusks are just awful. It's like Gary Morley and Aly Morrison had a competition to see who could sculpt the worse model.

Amen to that, hideous models and testament to GW's sculpting standards ever so slowly falling by the wayside.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 15, 2010, 08:02:01 AM
I didn't say it was a 100% improvement!  :lol:

Just better than the bulging eye-o-doom.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 15, 2010, 08:56:42 AM
Amen to that, hideous models and testament to GW's sculpting standards ever so slowly falling by the wayside.

Oh you are so right, just look at the last Skaven and Tyranid releases, or the upcoming BM stuff.

Do anyone really buy your BS on these boards?  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Sig on February 15, 2010, 09:07:48 AM
I do have to say that I think with the exception of the hideous Razorgor and questionable minotaurs that the vast majority of recent GW stuff has been a huge improvement vs previous incarnations.

Almost every release has a dud anyway. It's rare they get it completely right, but I think the Skaven might just fit the bill...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 15, 2010, 09:56:18 AM
Amen to that, hideous models and testament to GW's sculpting standards ever so slowly falling by the wayside.

Oh you are so right, just look at the last Skaven and Tyranid releases, or the upcoming BM stuff.

Do anyone really buy your BS on these boards?  :icon_lol:

JustNorth is entitled to voice his opinion, just like you or me.
 
I disagree with him too, but I'd appreciate it if you expressed that slightly less provocative.
 
Thank you for your cooperation.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: patsy02 on February 15, 2010, 10:21:14 AM
Hey guys, have any of you noticed how bad the new razorgor is? It's pretty bad amirite
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 15, 2010, 10:38:02 AM
I disagree with him too, but I'd appreciate it if you expressed that slightly less provocative.

Oops, I forgot to wear my ballerina shoes when typing that.

Some can, others' can't.

Bye!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 15, 2010, 10:39:35 AM
what does the '!WATCHED' thing under Shadows name mean? I think I know but not sure.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: McKnight on February 15, 2010, 10:43:56 AM
what does the '!WATCHED' thing under Shadows name mean? I think I know but not sure.
I was wondering about that aswell... although it doesnt surprise me that it has come to this though  :P
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 15, 2010, 11:36:04 AM
Hey guys, have any of you noticed how bad the new razorgor is? It's pretty bad amirite

Given a twist or change of position, they aren't as bad.  I think the biggest issue is they made one model for something that was meant to go in groups.  How stupid is that?  Are there any other grouped models that they did that with?

As for the warning thing, we have a new system to warn people prior to more serious punishments are leveld.  Technically, warnings have always been invisible, hence the confusion with seeing it on Shadowlords name.  Other people have walked around here with warnings on them and you haven't noticed since only administrators, mods, and the person in question can see it.  Nothing serious.

Move along.  Move along.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: patsy02 on February 15, 2010, 11:42:28 AM
And how about those new empire soldiers, are they bad or what?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 15, 2010, 11:47:30 AM
God DAMN I love you.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 15, 2010, 11:57:42 AM
Do we have new ones incoming?  :icon_eek:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 15, 2010, 12:09:10 PM
No, there is just somebody trying to start a fire.  ::heretic::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 15, 2010, 12:36:33 PM
And back the beastmen gentlemen...

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 16, 2010, 02:14:58 AM
I just got in a game against 1500 points of Lizardmen.

My list:

1 Wargor - Razorgor chariot, sword of might, gnarled skin, ramhorn helm
1 shaman - 2 dispel scrolls, Death magic

Core:

5 chariots
9 ungor skirmishers - musician
9 ungor skirmishers - musician
9 ungor skirmishers - musician

Special:

4 Minotaur - GW
4 Minotaur - GW

Him:

1 Scar Vet - Burning blade thing, enchanted shield, cold one
1 Skink shaman - Engine of the Gods

Core:

10 Skink - blowguns
10 Skink - blowguns
10 Skink - blowguns
10 Skink - blowguns

Special:

3 Teradon
5 Cold One riders
1 Stegadon

The game was good.  The ungor and the skink shot it out fairly good.  The ungor kept charging skink though, beating them up good.  The chariots did well, though they failed a few fear tests on the stegadons (passed their terrors though).  Primal fury on the general is great though with a razorgor, I recommend it.  The Minotaur are as good as advertised, both units butchered a stegadons in one turn!  One unit had 6 strength 7 attacks per turn!  They are a serious panic liability though.  Watch out for that.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 16, 2010, 02:35:33 AM
And the winner was?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 16, 2010, 02:46:14 AM
Beastmen.  Massacre on turn 5 with only terradon remaining.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 16, 2010, 03:13:39 AM
Oh my...

What was he doing with the Engine of the Gods?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 16, 2010, 07:51:06 AM
Massacre? Sound pretty onesided.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 16, 2010, 11:40:22 AM
MAssacres normally are one sided.  The ENgine blaster some things with his discord thing or whatever it is, but got caught in an overrun (5 inches from the Minotaur :D) and chopped down.  JIm didn't realise that even with the drums you can't move iwithin 1" of an enemy model.  It was tough.  He got the hang of lizards again by the second game and massacred Dagolnaki's DE.  But all three of us were rusty, so I don't know how indicative it is of much.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Lord Karnik on February 16, 2010, 12:50:38 PM
yup was pretty bad... got my tail kicked by those dam Satyr's again!  and I thought the were peaceful envoirmentalists.  Guess I was wrong you come near their tree's and the cut your dam head off!

Game was decent think I got stuck in a few places but another game should be more even!!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Moxer on February 16, 2010, 02:43:37 PM
Not the head! We have the magic mangelder!  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 16, 2010, 02:49:06 PM
Not the head! We have the magic mangelder!  :icon_twisted:

I must admit I can't understand an item like that in a game that's supposed to cater to the younger generations...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 16, 2010, 03:33:54 PM
Sorry Karnik. You most have mixed up the beastmens with the real peaceful enviormentalists, the Wood elves. I suggest you visit them. They will play lot of sweet music and treat you with flowers and a wine and not disturb a single scale on your bodies.
 :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Lord Karnik on February 17, 2010, 03:20:03 PM
that must be it mathi,, dam thought those horns were pointy ears :evil:

I am looking forward to rematch with MR PhillyT, and think it should be a little closer
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Finlay on February 17, 2010, 04:08:42 PM
They're still crap though, those horrible club tails held up almost like scorpion stingers, combined with the tusks are just awful. It's like Gary Morley and Aly Morrison had a competition to see who could sculpt the worse model.

Amen to that, hideous models and testament to GW's sculpting standards ever so slowly falling by the wayside.
These still look crap, as compared to the Minos who do look good with a different paint job, but these are the worst GW models, so not really indicative of a general trend of falling standards.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 17, 2010, 07:29:13 PM
@PhillyT: This is a "Slaangor" by GeOrc. That guy I was telling you about. ;)

(http://www.dunkelelfen-georc.de/Bilder/Public/Slaangor29.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Gneisenau on February 17, 2010, 08:12:53 PM
Great work!

The abs look a bit weird, but the NMM is magnificent.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: wissenlander on February 17, 2010, 08:18:28 PM
A mutated goat with pincers, swords and a loin cloth and its his abs that look weird...

 :wink:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Gneisenau on February 17, 2010, 08:19:55 PM
Hehe. :icon_biggrin: Good point!

But I meant the paintjob.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 17, 2010, 09:56:59 PM
That is an amazingly painted model!!!!

I could never do that, but then again, I simply wouldn't want to spend the time!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 18, 2010, 02:11:14 AM
wow

awesome model.

Question, so you know how Human Slaaneshi worshipers can be startling beautiful, male or female and beguile and be an object of lust for man and woman alike.

What about Slaaneshi beastmen? Do they have the same effect is the story of Jason and the Labyrinth simply a story of how a Slaaneshi Bull beguiled a human princess?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2010, 02:16:12 AM
What about Slaaneshi beastmen? Do they have the same effect is the story of Jason and the Labyrinth simply a story of how a Slaaneshi Bull beguiled a human princess?

I don't think Slaanesh Minotaurs would both to beguile anything... they would grab the prince, and take him.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Dihenydd on February 18, 2010, 06:11:54 AM
What about Slaaneshi beastmen? Do they have the same effect is the story of Jason and the Labyrinth simply a story of how a Slaaneshi Bull beguiled a human princess?

I don't think Slaanesh Minotaurs would both to beguile anything... they would grab the prince, and take him.

Phil


"take" him?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 18, 2010, 10:53:50 AM
the story of Jason and the Labyrinth

Is that one you made up?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Gneisenau on February 18, 2010, 11:26:20 AM
No, he didn't. It's the well known story of how Jason travelled through the Labyrinth in Troja to find Odysseus' bow so he could shoot Helena in the heel.

Honestly, rufus. Sometimes I wonder about your education.




sorry, Ben
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2010, 12:11:28 PM
What about Slaaneshi beastmen? Do they have the same effect is the story of Jason and the Labyrinth simply a story of how a Slaaneshi Bull beguiled a human princess?

I don't think Slaanesh Minotaurs would both to beguile anything... they would grab the prince, and take him.

Phil


"take" him?

That was a reference to Grace Jones' famous statement on how to get a man in Conan the Destoryer.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 18, 2010, 12:50:55 PM
Thanks very much for reminding me that Conan the Destroyer exists.


Quote from: Gneisenau
Sometimes I wonder about your education.

Yes, I didn't watch enough episodes of 'Xena.'
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2010, 12:56:35 PM
Have any of us?

There was a sweet minotaur in that new Olympian movie.  And a satyr.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 18, 2010, 01:01:12 PM
Thanks very much for reminding me that Conan the Destroyer exists.


Quote from: Gneisenau
Sometimes I wonder about your education.

Yes, I didn't watch enough episodes of 'Xena.'

Strange, my sarcasm meter went off the scales when reading this post....  :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Midaski on February 18, 2010, 01:07:43 PM
Films discussion belongs in the Back Table

Please keep this thread on topic.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2010, 01:10:28 PM
Good point!

While a minotaur once appeared in Xena, this thread involves Minotaurs of the Warhammer presuasian.  While looking at Minotaurs from pop-culture can be beneficial, lets remain focused o nthe new Beastmen.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 18, 2010, 01:31:06 PM
It's a TV series, not a film.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2010, 01:50:46 PM
Shot on film!  With an unattractive leading lady!

And Ungor and Minotaur!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 18, 2010, 02:17:14 PM
The special effects were also uglier than a plastic minotaur.

How's that for staying on topic?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 18, 2010, 02:23:08 PM
You have to specify if the special effects were painted or not.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 18, 2010, 02:24:04 PM
But then the thread would have to be moved into the painting forum.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 18, 2010, 02:25:24 PM
Hmmm especially if Xena was also victim of some greenstuffing.


Well other than that I didn´t have a single look in the new beastmen army book are there any units that one will never see on the battlefield any more?

Is there even a single reason to field Gor regiments?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 18, 2010, 03:18:05 PM

Having a lot of Gors might be a good reason.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Gneisenau on February 18, 2010, 03:21:54 PM
Pff... fluff bunny :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 18, 2010, 03:37:16 PM
Well more of a fluff goatey
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2010, 03:42:18 PM

Having a lot of Gors might be a good reason.

GOr are nasty i nthe right situation.  With a Beastlord and AHW they would get 10 S3 hatred attacks.  Add a BSB with the BEast banner and its 10 S4 rerollables.  Add a Gorebull BSB with beast banner and you end up with 15 S4, 5 S7, and 1d3 S6 impact hits.  Plus, as ambushers they are brutal to most anything on the backfield.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 18, 2010, 03:44:00 PM
From the sound of it the beast got great magical banners.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2010, 03:53:32 PM
All four of their banners (yes only 4) are awesome.

Beast Banner - +1 S for the bearer and his unit (BSB only)
Totem of Rust - -1 AS to any unit within 6" -2 AS to any unit in BtB contact with the unit (including itself!).  Doesn't effect scaly skin.  This one is not bad at all since it evens out the fact that nothing in the army can get an AS worth a damn.
Manbane Standard - -1 LD to all enemy units within 6" of the standard.
Banner of Outrage - Unit passes all Primal Fury tests automatically. Enemy units hate the unit with the banner.  This one is an even trade off since the enemy only hates for the first round and the unit basically hates every single round.

All of these banners are super cheap (other than the Beast Banner) given their cost.  The AS reducing one is especially good in a unit of gor since they have no AS and you can just let them go.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Gneisenau on February 18, 2010, 04:10:02 PM
That's nifty! I like that Totem of Rust one. Any way Beasts can get access to poisoned attacks?

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 18, 2010, 04:20:58 PM
Only through a special character.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 19, 2010, 02:09:38 AM
Incorrect. Hounds (which you keep bagging) can get poisoned attacked for +1pt per model.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 19, 2010, 03:01:42 AM
Oh yes.  Hounds can get poison attacks.  But they are then 7 points each and still not very good...

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Shadoweyed on February 19, 2010, 04:03:49 AM
Don't want to burst this one, but the poison attacks are 3 pts a model, so a total of 9 each.

-Shadoweyed
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 19, 2010, 04:08:13 AM
And a 6+ Scaly Skin save is the +1 point/model upgrade.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Warlord on February 19, 2010, 04:32:53 AM
Damn, wrong way around (pts cost).

Even so, the question was asked, if there were poison attacks available. A 45 pt unit can give out 5 poison attacks. Not bad for flanking a unit subject to the Rust Totem. They may die easy, but they they could kill stuff easier too with such a coupling.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 19, 2010, 11:38:44 AM
That makes much more sense.  I was sitting there actually thinking they wouldn't be that bad.  But you cannot honestly be thinking they are worth it at 9 points each?

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 19, 2010, 11:43:27 AM
but they are damn fine at 6 points...they are fast, can march block, threaten a flank,  and can eat a warmachine crew (not a dwarf one) for 30 points. (oh they also can conquer table quarters and are extra drops if you want to know where your enemy is going to deploy).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 19, 2010, 12:00:39 PM
Much of what you just described would be better with ungor skirmishers.  They hit with the same combat ability, since the ungor can get primal fury, they cost the same, one armed with a bow and skirmishes.  Also, ungor can ambush.  The beastmen have no shortage of ways to get to warmachine crews.

They really have no place in the list outside of really bad flank chargers.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 19, 2010, 12:18:33 PM
well ungor skirmishers seem to be the winners of the new army book

only advantages of hounds might be that their M is higher and you could field ....well 20 to give a gorebull rank bonus.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 19, 2010, 11:33:48 PM
That is the only way I can think to use them.  As a carrier for a doombull or gorebull they might do some damage.  Or rather, allow the doombull to make it to combat without going slow.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Taureus on February 20, 2010, 05:46:12 AM
Oh my... :eusa_sick:

(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4986/minos3.jpg)

Quote from: Codsticker;4412468
The sculpting doesn't look as... bizarre... in blue. Well -done you have improved the models.:D
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Justnorth on February 20, 2010, 08:08:35 AM
 :eusa_clap:    :icon_mrgreen:

 :::cheers::: Nice find.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 20, 2010, 11:19:36 AM
I like the blue.  If thats your thing.  I finished my test model and am 50% done the other two.  They are FAR better than the old models.  Plus when you drop them while you paint, they bounce.

Pictures to come shortly.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 20, 2010, 12:01:28 PM
Here is the closest list I can get to an Empire style army using plenty of ambushers to get the jump on the enemy:

Characters:

Beastlord - Horn of the First Beast, GW, Trollhide
Gorebull - BSB, -1LD banner, Heavy Armor, GW
Shaman - 2 dispel scrolls

Core:

20 Gor - Full Command, AHW - Gorebull goes here.
23 Gor - Full Command, AHW - Beastlord goes here.
10 Gor - musician - Ambusher
10 Gor - musician - Ambusher

9 Ungor Skirmishers - Musician
9 Ungor Skirmishers - Musician
9 Ungor Skirmishers - Musician - possible ambusher

10 Ungor - musician, hand weapon and shields
10 Ungor - musician, hand weapon and shields
10 Ungor - musician, hand weapon and shields - Ambusher
10 Ungor - musician, hand weapon and shields - Ambusher

5 Chaos Warhounds
5 Chaos Warhounds

5 Chariots

There are enough points to cut a chariot and drop a unit of razorgor or minotaur if desired, or better still, take Khazrak and more gor for an ambush apocolypse.  I would actually use the remaining points for 3 more chariots, bringing it to 7.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Gneisenau on February 20, 2010, 03:26:26 PM
Hey, if you paint those Minos white, you can make a unit of Michelin-guys!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: t12161991 on February 20, 2010, 05:25:16 PM
Hey, if you paint those Minos white, you can make a unit of Michelin-guys!

 :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Lord Karnik on February 20, 2010, 05:34:28 PM
you could green stuff some tires as great weapons, nad base them on a 40k road base
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 20, 2010, 05:59:18 PM
I am green stuffing genitals for mine.  You can't tell me they wouldn't be there.  They have huge naked asses.  Have you ever seen a bull from behind.

 :icon_eek:

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: phillyt on February 20, 2010, 06:36:12 PM
Here is my test minotaur.  The model is alot of fun to paint and looks very good when completed.  Not sure how GW muffed theirs.  They have a couple other sample minotaurs in the book that are alot better than the ones they chose for the box.

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Mino1.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/mino2.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/mino5.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/mino3.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/mino4.jpg)

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on February 20, 2010, 06:48:38 PM
Two words...

Gap filling.

Otherwise an excellent paintjob!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: McKnight on February 20, 2010, 07:03:58 PM
Needs more fur  :icon_confused:

Good paint job though! I like it!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 20, 2010, 07:42:08 PM
Two words...

Gap filling.

Two words: I did.

The model has trenches between those muscles.  Every gap was green stuffed other than the butt crack.  I liked the look and the gap isn't noticable in person.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on February 20, 2010, 07:56:43 PM
There's a gap in front of the left horn...

And I wasn't refering to the asscrack.  :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 20, 2010, 10:50:26 PM
Nice! Looks like a football hooligan.

Also, I just saw these on Warseer:

(http://myimages.bravenet.com/358/854/538/0/beastmenminos1.jpg)

You and some others are getting some nice looking figures out of the new minotaurs.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 21, 2010, 01:24:43 PM
Well played two games last night against Chaos Warriors and Dark Elves at 1500.

Against WoC It wasn't too bad a game, but I couldn't make a roll to save my life.  There wasn't alot left on either side, but high value models meant I lost by 600.  Was closer than that, but it was tough to out fight chaos knights.  I took the gorgon too, and he is okay, but doesn't do enough offensively against khorne chaos warriors to be worth while.  Nice to be immune to pychology though.

DE was bad.  This was against a gunline DE list with 30 crossbowmen and 10 Dark riders coupled with a pair of wizards.  Too much manuvering and too much shooting to really be able to do much.  We didn't tabulate points, but it was probably around 1000.

While these two lists are certainly the worst match ups for BEastmen (WoC can match them in HtH and DE are super fast and can shoot the crap out of low AS units) I think the list needs some work before it is ready for primetime!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 21, 2010, 02:23:20 PM
Your ambushing ungor didn't get the better of the delf bowmen?

Philly have you tried the Jabberslythe yet? I've already told you how 2 of them ripped me to shreds.

Would centigor be worth it against Delves you think? Relatively fast get into range in a tun or two, if nothing else stops people firing at your minos...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Lord Karnik on February 21, 2010, 03:18:11 PM
Wow looks like our group is pretty even at the moment, You killed me, I killed the DE, the DE killed you.  interesting interesting!!

So no chance of a game tommorrow??
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on February 21, 2010, 05:44:31 PM
Your ambushing ungor didn't get the better of the delf bowmen?

Philly have you tried the Jabberslythe yet? I've already told you how 2 of them ripped me to shreds.

Would centigor be worth it against Delves you think? Relatively fast get into range in a tun or two, if nothing else stops people firing at your minos...

Playing at 1500 points (gearing up for the NE Bash tournament), he would have one at most. And it suffers the same problem as the Ghorgon against an army that can largely be either Frenzied or ItP-lite (Mark os Slaanesh = Immune to Terror/Fear/Panic, and can still flee): No armor/ward save at all.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Justnorth on February 21, 2010, 10:16:28 PM
Thanks for the the pitures chaps, the more I see different quality paint jobs on these new plastic Minotaurs the more I find myself thinking...

Gee... those models really are garbage sculpts.

It doesn't matter how much effort is put in, or how good the paint work is, and it has been very good in all cases, but models sculpted as clumsily as the new plastic Minotaurs are beyond redemption or salvation.
They are quite simply awful, blocky, clumsy sculpts.

Give me the bestigors everytime. :mellow:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Warlord on February 21, 2010, 10:24:22 PM
They aren't sculpted clumsily. They are just sculpted with a distinct style in mind, that many think is horrible.

More than anything, I am kicking myself for not picking up those Rat Ogres I saw on Ebay the other week.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 22, 2010, 02:25:24 AM
Your ambushing ungor didn't get the better of the delf bowmen?

Didn't use them.  I was using my tournament list, so no modifications.

I think the army would do fine if I could make changes depending on the opponent, but in a fixed list, the thing is either go for the throat or go point denial/ambush.  I have made a couple other lists and think it will be interesting.

Quote
Philly have you tried the Jabberslythe yet? I've already told you how 2 of them ripped me to shreds.

Not yet.  Really soft model... and DE have wicked leadership!

Quote
Would centigor be worth it against Delves you think? Relatively fast get into range in a tun or two, if nothing else stops people firing at your minos...

The main issue is Dagonaki uses 3 units of 10 archers, 3 units of 5 dark riders, and 2 2nd level sorcerers.  Thats alot of shooting.  In an army with no AS, 90 S3 shots per turn was punishing.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 22, 2010, 03:42:45 AM
yea i know

in my 2500pt list I have 30 bowmen, 6 dark riders, 7 shades, 2 lv2's. So a decent amount of firepower as well =P

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on February 22, 2010, 03:55:40 AM
But yours is a 2500 points list.

That much firepower in 1500 points is brutal for just about anything. And let's face it, 10 Dark Riders is just about the same threat (shooting) as 6+7 Shades.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 22, 2010, 05:57:16 AM
But yours is a 2500 points list.

That much firepower in 1500 points is brutal for just about anything. And let's face it, 10 Dark Riders is just about the same threat (shooting) as 6+7 Shades.

yea i know I'm agreeing that it's brutal, especially when Mino's are only T4.

 
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on February 22, 2010, 07:33:21 PM
Light armor...What's that?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 23, 2010, 02:30:48 AM
Well the general consensus for the beasts isn't looking good right now on the HErdstone.  People are struggling.  I think some of this will be fixed with 8th, and some will be corrected once people sort out how the army plays after this huge shake up in style.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 23, 2010, 03:17:17 AM
well you've got the experience but it seems to be it's about hitting as hard and fast as you can and protecting your units such as minos etc.

I mean I really like the new minotaurs, they hit like nothing else but aren't invulnerable (which to me makes them a perfect unit).

Maybe trying something out with Hounds deployed infront of your minos to cover them from enemy shooting for T1 and 2?

Also a guy at my LGS tried to spam the +d6" forward spell. It has potential, except he did it T1 (against my delves) and simply got his army into my charge range. I'm highly tempted to buy the book and start a small force.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: t12161991 on February 23, 2010, 07:45:40 AM
Yeah, I think you're short selling Hounds here Philly. They're cheap, they're fast, and they make excellent screeners and diverters.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on February 23, 2010, 09:29:57 AM
Perhaps the risk is that when they get shot up and flee, you have a horribly high chance of your minos running too... an Empire-like chance you could say...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: FR1DAY on February 23, 2010, 10:57:59 AM
But with the hounds in 5's they need to take two casualties to take a test and if they lose three, and lets face it they aren't very hard to kill, they are less than US5 so don't cause tests. You'd have to have a very high control on your shooting to reliably achieve just 2 kills.

Like you say as well, great for diverting units away from things as well, something that ungor skirmishers can't do.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on February 23, 2010, 02:21:29 PM
Interesting point.

For the record, I've always loved using hounds, though it was mainly in last edition as war machine and missile troop ambushers. 30pts a piece well spent! You could have 3 or 4 units of them and depend on at least one, in my case usually 2 or 3 coming on where you wanted and the rest were quick enough to still be able to get into battle.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 23, 2010, 02:28:37 PM
The plastic hounds are quite nice models, too.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on February 23, 2010, 03:01:43 PM
If the hounds could stilll ambush they would be cool. as they are raiders are probably better. i will use hounds nonetheless, because the comp system mostly used in my area forbids more than three units of raiders.
On the models: i do not like the plastic models. parts of them are good, but the body and the furry shoulders/head just don't match well which makes them look bad imo. Better than the 6th ed metals though.
My favourites are still the old metal dogs from 4th/5th ed.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 23, 2010, 05:33:44 PM
Also if you have a Gorbull or Doombull then the Minos are frenzy and immune to panic...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on February 23, 2010, 09:20:47 PM
The thing is, Minos do not need a mino character to be effective. I thinkrunning a unit of minos + a unit of Gor/ungor/hounds with a gorebull is better than a unit of minos with gorebull + whatever you gt for the pointsof the carrierunit.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Von Breden on February 23, 2010, 09:43:46 PM
The plastic hounds are quite nice models, too.
I almost thought you were serious :icon_lol:.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 23, 2010, 10:05:41 PM
Chaos Hounds are not the answer.  Taking skirmished ungor is a much better option.  As has been said, if a couple die the three remaining will be more than enough to force a panic.

The biggest issue with the army is the terrible psychology issues.  It is so prone to panic that the thing will struggle immensely.  Sure it can get around some of their issues with fear, but there are no non-rare ItP units.

Sticking minotaurs and gorebulls in units works well to a point, but it is only one or two units in an entire army.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Warlord on February 24, 2010, 01:04:29 AM
You don't need an entire army to be immune to psychology. And you deal with it like most normal armies - use the general's leadership.

And hounds are more useful for the purpose of cross-fire. They can still lose a few models and be useful - unlike raiders who need all 5 to be there to do it.

They aren't bad Phil. They just aren't as great as they used to be, and raiders are cool too. They have their place though, and not all armies have access to the same kind of useful, cheap throw away units that Beastmen do.

I do think the list will struggle, though it is worrying to hear Beastmen players agree though. I think a lot of the effective options for the list have disappeared, and really players are stuck using a chariot and monster heavy list if they want to be super-competitive. And even that, depending on the enemy can be neutralised.

I know its early, but the fixes the book needs are:
Drop in points for Gors (2 pts)
Free (or half points) Spears for Ungors
Ambushing hounds
Centigor cost drop
Centigor Hero (not just a champ upgrade - no idea why they didn't do that in this one)
Reduce cost of Wargor, Beastlord, and Bray Shamans
Cheaper magic items. So many are overpriced for what they do, and there are not enough cheaper items in the book.

These IMO are the main changes needed, as the book has so much potential - it just stumbles at some of the basics (cost of characters and rank and file)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 24, 2010, 02:12:16 AM
I think Chaoshounds are marvelous in WoC.  They scratch their itches just fine.  But Other than a huge unit of them for a gorebull or doombull., I can't see too much use.  Those skirmishing shortbows are too useful for the same cost.

As for your fixes, if Gor were 7 with their AHW that would be fine, but 6 would be really good.  Ungor would need a comenserate drop to 4.  Spears should be a free upgrade, though then you would have no reason to use those cool handweapon bits.

The characters are actually appropriately priced when you take their high percentage chance of getting Primal FUry, particularly the Beastlord.  Compared with other lords, they aren't more than 10 points too high, which isn't bad really.

But you hit on it, chariots and monsters are the only way this list will have any shot at winning.  And even then it will simply be uncompetitive in fixed list tournaments.  Let me just say I think the list will still be alot of fun in casual play were you can modify your list to the opposition.  Even in a competitive setting, as long as the list can be changed, it will do just fine. 

Those Herdstone players who are in environments like Ben though are in for a long 6 or 7 years until the next book arrives...

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 24, 2010, 02:28:17 AM
I dunno there were a few people playings beasts last night, 2x4 mino's 2 Jabbers or Gorgons, Doombull, monster heavy force I guess  :closed-eyes:

I just find myself liking the models more and more. I really want those Razagor simply for the "WTF Mate!" factor.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on February 24, 2010, 08:25:01 AM
What is your opinion on command for the minotaurs?
I think they do not need a standard but a musician could be nice for rallying if they panic. However if they panic they are pretty much out of the game anyways, so probably not worth it.

The champion however gives a lot of possibilities: He can have a magic item!
The blackened plate is useful if you run a character with trollhide in the same unit.
The stone of spite is interesting too. After an initial "wow" i discarded this item when i realized that it blows up dispel scrolls too. But on a mino champ who runs forward as fast as possible anyways it might be good! Especially if you can surprise your enemy with it.
A simple magic weapon to help versus spirits may be good too.

But is it worth the points?
Another point for taking a champion is the wound distribution: Shooting is distributed among the unit, the champ might get wounded but it can save a normal minotaur's life. So more attacks get into combat.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 24, 2010, 08:36:08 AM
I'm a big fan of nilla units. I'd take 4 straight with Greatweapons. saves hte points. Moment you start going to town on them they blow out cost wise and with or without the cool items they are still liable to panic...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 24, 2010, 10:50:32 AM
The plastic hounds are quite nice models, too.
I almost thought you were serious :icon_lol:.

I was. They look OK to me.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 24, 2010, 12:59:05 PM
The plastic hounds are quite nice models, too.
I almost thought you were serious :icon_lol:.

I was. They look OK to me.

better then the vampire wolves - imho
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Gneisenau on February 24, 2010, 01:00:18 PM
That's about as much as an achievement as being smarter than yeast.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 24, 2010, 01:33:35 PM

Duh ?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 24, 2010, 03:50:02 PM
hey looking at the book what do you guys think of this list. There are a few glaring holes in but the idea is it's a mino based tribe marching around with their underlings and pet hounds.

Competitively I'd use 3 tuskgor chariots intead of the ungor skirmish

Doombull - greatweapon, gnarled hide, trollhide, talisman of protection
Gor Bull - greatweapon, heavyarmour shield
Gor Bull - greatweapon, heavy armour, shield
Gor Bull - greatweapon, heavy armour, shield

4x10 ungor skirmish OR 3 Tuskgor Chariots

2x4 Minos - Greatweapons
2x3 Razagor
2xGorgons

= 2500pts exactly.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 24, 2010, 09:38:14 PM
Gee... those models really are garbage sculpts.

I ain't falling for it soth, no way sir!

@ PhillyT, the Beastmen will be much better under 8th.

Ranked core is the new cheese!  :engel:

Oh, I also got some beast goodies in my GW bag...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 24, 2010, 11:13:38 PM
Ranked core is the new cheese! 

Back to early 6th edition? Good.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 25, 2010, 03:15:05 AM
Ranked core is awesome with the new rules.  That will certainly help make people drop points on infantry and not on more of the goodies.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on February 25, 2010, 04:42:36 AM
I'd pay the points to get 56 attacks out of a 2x7 unit. :D
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on February 25, 2010, 09:01:42 AM
So, welcome to the horde shadowlord! Which goodies exactly?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 25, 2010, 09:33:39 AM
So, welcome to the horde shadowlord! Which goodies exactly?

Everything besides Bestigors (not because they suck, but because they look way too disciplined and well polished) and Gorgon (what do you use this for? character hunting?) so far. I managed to buy a Jabberwock and I was thinking of getting a plastic Balrog (minus the wings, face and tail, and heavily GS:ed) to convert into a Gygor. Got a few boxes of Gors and Ungors, and traded lots of stuff from a friend. Will get Razorgors, harpies, and more chariots.

This is the jabby I bought (not painted by me though):

"](http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc292/xHerodx/Jabber.jpg)
 
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 25, 2010, 10:45:09 AM
Is that not the one you said was rubbish earlier in the thread?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 25, 2010, 10:59:48 AM
Is that not the one you said was rubbish earlier in the thread?

That must have been desinformation for his prospective seller.... to bring the price down...  :biggriin:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 25, 2010, 11:06:15 AM
face of a bat
tongue of a slug
body of a dragon
hands of mucked up thingy
with weird hexagons all over it's body.
dislike alot.

that said if I saw it in real life I'd tear my eyes out as well so I guess it does give the correct impression. :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Warlord on February 25, 2010, 12:00:43 PM
Nice model actually.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 25, 2010, 01:13:28 PM
Does this mean you give up your other new army projects, like Space orkz and Empire and plan to get rid of those newly bought boxes? If you have trouble finding someone willing to take care of the orphans I am sure I can make some room in my forces. :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 25, 2010, 03:18:54 PM
Is that not the one you said was rubbish earlier in the thread?

Yes, but I hate myself so this is the perfect way to torture myself...

@ Mathi, Empire is lost long ago (as in a few moments), and I am still kicking with my Orks and Ogres.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 25, 2010, 03:25:02 PM
Ah, I thought so. It looks good, anyway.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Aldaris on February 25, 2010, 03:29:54 PM
Quote from: Nicholas Bies
with weird hexagons all over it's body.
[/quote
I could be wrong, but don't hexagons have 6 corners?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Gneisenau on February 25, 2010, 03:32:52 PM
Quote from: Nicholas Bies
with weird hexagons all over it's body.
[/quote
Should be "his body", not "it's body".
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 25, 2010, 04:26:50 PM
what makes it a him?

diamonds then not hexagons. Hexagons may have been interesting...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 25, 2010, 06:22:47 PM
Ah, shame about that, Shadowlord. But it´s good to know you ain´t giving up on the Orkz. I mean, we gotta galaxy tae crump!  :icon_mrgreen: :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 25, 2010, 08:08:06 PM
I gotta say.. them beastmens is cuuuute

(http://as7.disneystore.com/is/image/DisneyShopping/200157?$full$)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 26, 2010, 01:05:23 AM
Razorgor!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on February 26, 2010, 07:12:52 AM
How much is it and does it fit on a 50mm base? Looks better than the GW one!  :biggriin:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Justnorth on February 26, 2010, 08:49:14 AM
I gotta say.. them beastmens is cuuuute

(http://as7.disneystore.com/is/image/DisneyShopping/200157?$full$)

Are there riders?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 26, 2010, 08:51:37 AM
(http://www.treasurekingdom.com/miva/graphics/00000001/timon33.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on February 26, 2010, 09:02:01 AM
The poses of the two plushies (Especially pumbas tail) suggest a NSFW kind of "riding"...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 26, 2010, 10:41:15 AM
Oh my... :eusa_sick:

(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4986/minos3.jpg)

Quote from: Codsticker;4412468
The sculpting doesn't look as... bizarre... in blue. Well -done you have improved the models.:D

Iiiiiiiii like big BUTTS and I cannot lie...you other brothers can´t deny.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Gneisenau on February 26, 2010, 11:05:31 AM
That's quite racist, Fandir.


Stop discriminating against Smurfs on steroids.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 26, 2010, 11:17:05 AM
I was just reffering to the very great symphonie that sings the ode of joy to their big behinds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE_gOfm0TUI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE_gOfm0TUI&feature=related)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 26, 2010, 11:55:50 AM
(http://www.treasurekingdom.com/miva/graphics/00000001/timon33.jpg)

Ungor!

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 26, 2010, 12:40:09 PM
this thread has taken a turn...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 26, 2010, 12:46:10 PM
...for the better!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on February 26, 2010, 12:53:18 PM
I was informed that my posts in the Counts' tavern weren't fluffy enough.

I hope you're all satisfied now.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 26, 2010, 04:19:53 PM
Well, the proper salute for those Minos should be "Fat bottomed ladies" by Queen, should it not?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
Post by: Justnorth on February 26, 2010, 06:04:22 PM
Oh my... :eusa_sick:

(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4986/minos3.jpg)

Quote from: Codsticker;4412468
The sculpting doesn't look as... bizarre... in blue. Well -done you have improved the models.:D

Iiiiiiiii like big BUTTS and I cannot lie...you other brothers can´t deny.

That was good, that made me laugh out loud. :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadoweyed on February 26, 2010, 09:53:13 PM
Anyone else read this article and find it odd that they mention Centigors at S6 with Great Weapons?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=6200034a&start=4 (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=6200034a&start=4)

If it is true that they gain +2 S they may actually compete against the other specials better. They seem decent now, but people still love mino's so this could give them more of an edge.

-Shadoweyed
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 26, 2010, 10:56:21 PM
That would be odd, because the book basically says they follow the rules for cavalry which would imply a GW is only S5.  At S6 you are right, they would be useful...

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on February 27, 2010, 01:45:20 AM
That would be odd, because the book basically says they follow the rules for cavalry which would imply a GW is only S5.  At S6 you are right, they would be useful...

Phil

Mounted models only gain +1 S with GW.

The argument can/cannot? be made that Centigor are not mounted models, so would get S6.

Not my call though. lol
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 27, 2010, 02:14:13 AM
You know, it makes the option much more logical...


They really would be worth using in that case.

My brain is working...

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on February 27, 2010, 03:35:43 AM
Centigor are weird then... :?

They would get the "infantry" benefit of GW, and the "mounted" benefit of spears... :eusa_wall:

Or just simplify it, and not try to comvert GW-wielding centigor.  :happy:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on February 27, 2010, 05:43:10 AM
That would be odd, because the book basically says they follow the rules for cavalry which would imply a GW is only S5.  At S6 you are right, they would be useful...

Phil

I mentioned in my first post after reading the book that Centigor needed to be FAQed.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadoweyed on February 27, 2010, 05:52:57 AM
Oh, I will already be converting Centigors, but most likely Spear and Shield. I like the Centigor models to an extent, but not enough to drop $55 on a unit of them.

Agreed that they need the FAQ. But it is rather clear in the book, wonder if the article writer had a typo?

-Shadoweyed
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadoweyed on February 27, 2010, 06:18:28 AM
I don't have the BRB with me, but doesn't it say that the GW only provides +1S to mounted models? Centigors count as Cav, but that doesn't mean mounted...

Is that what you were going for Philly?

Sorry for the double post.

-Shadoweyed
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 27, 2010, 11:08:08 AM
Centaurs (specifically bull centaurs) used to have a special rule that made them count as infantry for weapon rules (the hand weapon and shield bonus). There's no such rule now, I think. So I'd say they are stuck with the rubbish version of great weapons, just like questing knights.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 27, 2010, 11:57:47 AM
I am with rufus.  The Beast book is pretty clear, it says they count as cavalry models wit ha single profile.

Of course, they might be indicating a return to normal GW rules for cavalry under 8th.  WOuld certainly give a boost to alot of models.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on February 27, 2010, 12:57:33 PM
I am liking this idea. And seeing as everyone keeps saying centigors are a bit rubbish now, it could certainly make sense that a minor rules tweak like that would bring them back into the useful category.

Which frankly would be great for me as I have 10 of them.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Lord Karnik on February 27, 2010, 01:21:16 PM
I can see the justification of giving them full bennifit of great weapons, and I think it adds a much needed element to the army.  This would serioulsly helpy when fighting gunlines!

if this is true I think MR Philly may be re-thinking his beasts
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Warlord on February 27, 2010, 01:57:04 PM
This would serioulsly helpy when fighting gunlines!

How would them being able to use GWs help when fighting gunlines?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on February 27, 2010, 03:55:42 PM
Suppose they'd help against dwarf gunlines...  :happy:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Lord Karnik on February 27, 2010, 04:35:13 PM
my thought is first they will be on the board, and not in a box some were ::heretic:: 

more seriously thought there movement flexability make them an imidiate threat, and a target that must be taken care of, while your heavy hitters get there!  May be I am wrong and people will leave them along and jsut plug away at skirmishers, and your chariots but I think they will warent some attention with the hitting power they will have at S6
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 27, 2010, 11:18:19 PM
They are the only M8 models in the army.  But only when we hit 8th edition will I really think much of bringing them to a tournament.

I am liking my Dwarf gunline army... and its painted.  Mostly.  I just need to buy a BT.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on February 28, 2010, 11:14:23 AM
I am liking my Dwarf gunline army.

What!

Are you insane? There is nothing more boring to play. You barely need to be awake.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Gneisenau on February 28, 2010, 11:53:27 AM
True story.

Only last month I woke up in some place in Wisconsin with a medal in my hand and found out I had won a Warhammer Tournament!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadowlord on February 28, 2010, 02:41:37 PM
Only last month I woke up in some place in Wisconsin with a medal in my hand and found out I had won a Warhammer Tournament!

Yes that's what we call our nights of passion, a, um, Warhammer Tournament...

@ rufus, I echo your last sentiment.

BTW, the old metal minotaur suck to look STR5. Looks like I will have to get the new ones and do a lot of GS conversions.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: GamesPoet on February 28, 2010, 02:53:23 PM
Wow, finally recheck this thread and there's been like 60 pages since I last was reading it.  Got a bit of catch up to do here, if I even try. I'm on vaca so maybe I'll give it a shot.  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 28, 2010, 02:55:16 PM
I'm sure you'll add another 20 pages with your responses to everyone.  :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Finlay on February 28, 2010, 03:10:04 PM
Wow, finally recheck this thread and there's been like 60 pages since I last was reading it.  Got a bit of catch up to do here, if I even try. I'm on vaca so maybe I'll give it a shot.  :icon_lol:
Minotaurs and Pumpagors suck
"no they dont"

Minotaurs actually dont suck as much if they are painted as well
Pumbagors still stuck nomatter the paint job.
Philly actually likes the monstrosities.

Hounds are rubbish. The new book is still being worked out how to win with.

There you go, you don't need to now GP.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: GamesPoet on February 28, 2010, 04:38:35 PM
I'm sure you'll add another 20 pages with your responses to everyone.  :engel:
:icon_lol:

I'll try to be good and only give a few. :icon_wink:

Then again, I am on vacation. :engel:

 :icon_lol:

There you go, you don't need to now GP.
Thanks for the heads up!  :icon_cool: :::cheers:::

When I see such, if I even review, then I'll skim those parts.  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on February 28, 2010, 10:29:09 PM
I am liking my Dwarf gunline army.

What!

Are you insane? There is nothing more boring to play. You barely need to be awake.

At a WAAC tournament, what more do you want?  I like dwarves.  I would have a dwarf army if Lord Karnik hadn't grabbed them.  I like the idea of Dwarven units tucked between shooting units backed with sweet artillary.

I would rather play a dwarf gunline than a demon army.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Warlord on February 28, 2010, 11:46:55 PM
I would rather play a dwarf gunline than a demon army.

I'd rather play a dwarf army with a strong theme rather than the same-same looking dwarf gunline armies that are out there.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on March 01, 2010, 12:09:14 AM
I would have a dwarf army if Lord Karnik hadn't grabbed them.

I still don't understand the whole "one guy gets an army, and no one else can have the same one..." mentality...

Like Dagonaki's "claim" on Dark Eldar in 40K *and* CSM as well...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 01, 2010, 12:11:49 AM
I like the idea of a master engineer army.  Same with the Empire.  Nothing wrong with it if the army is painted in a cohesive fashion.  There are plenty of armies I don't like to play, but I do it because it isn't my job to tell my opponent what they can and can't use in a free for all format.  The fact that the empire/dwarven gunline can be amazingly fluffy given the easy inclusion of plenty of infantry, people really don't have ,uch of a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining.  If there are three full infantry blocks, is it still a gunline?  In a dwarf army that is not an insignificant number of points.

Taureus:  Nobody claims anything.  But back when there were only three of use playing regularly it was a pain to have duplicates.  We did once we had multiples, but it also allowed us to pool resources when picking up bulk lots.  If there were spare models ,the person with that army got them.

And he doesn't have any claim on Dark Eldar or CSM.  It is pretty much whoever gets a decent number of them first has called it you know? Besides we all have multiple armies for each game now so it doesn't really matter.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on March 01, 2010, 12:15:22 AM
Except that if you talk to him, he's against letting anyone else play either of those armies. DEldar are "his" because they are the DE of 40k.

And CSM are "his" because he wants to make the Cauldron-born.

I just don't see the point in saying "I don't have a Dwarf army because someone else *got* them first."

And since everyone has 2-3 armies, there's no "boring" anymore. Just pick one that the other person isn't using for that game, and play.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 01, 2010, 01:02:15 AM
Well sure, if I had the cash that isn't getting sucked up by Orcs, Ogres, or Beastmen, I would have no qualms about buying dwarves at this point.  When I was looking for another army after Empire and Beasts, dwarves was sort of tied up as Jim's only army.  I didn't want to step on his toes.  We were trying to get as many armies represented in our group as possible.

And I just asked Dagonaki if he was trying to claim those armies, he said no.  Have at whatever ones you want!  Even if he had claimed them, nothing stopping anyone from grabbing one.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on March 01, 2010, 11:21:39 AM
I like the idea of a master engineer army.  Same with the Empire.  Nothing wrong with it if the army is painted in a cohesive fashion.  There are plenty of armies I don't like to play, but I do it because it isn't my job to tell my opponent what they can and can't use in a free for all format.  The fact that the empire/dwarven gunline can be amazingly fluffy given the easy inclusion of plenty of infantry, people really don't have ,uch of a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining.  If there are three full infantry blocks, is it still a gunline?  In a dwarf army that is not an insignificant number of points.

It's boring to play with. It's a waste of your time.


p.s. Dwarfs can't ride high horses, so you'd better climb down off yours.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 01, 2010, 12:27:29 PM
It's boring to play with. It's a waste of your time.

I have played gunline armies alot and enjoy them everytime.  I like the variety.  I have 5 armies, using a new one is fun in and of itself.

Quote
p.s. Dwarfs can't ride high horses, so you'd better climb down off yours.

I don't like horses...

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on March 01, 2010, 12:28:41 PM
I suppose it depends what you mean by 'gunline' really. I didn't think beastmen could make one though.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 01, 2010, 12:31:21 PM
Heh, I meant with Empire.  I have probably played twice as many games with Empire as with Beastmen.

Beastman gunlines would be rather sad, though 150 ungor with shortbows, a guy with the spear, a pile of magic, 4 units of throwing axe armed centigor, and two cygors might be okay.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on March 01, 2010, 12:32:37 PM
See, someone should do that. It would only cost about a million pounds to buy all those ungors.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on March 01, 2010, 12:52:03 PM
See, someone should do that. It would only cost about a million pounds to buy all those ungors.


Well, the pound is still rather low...  :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on March 01, 2010, 12:55:04 PM
True. It's probably about three euros worth of ungors.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: GamesPoet on March 01, 2010, 01:04:02 PM
See, someone should do that. It would only cost about a million pounds to buy all those ungors.
Well, the pound is still rather low...  :engel:
I don't know.  I saw a catalog for a chocolate company that was selling some of their stuff at $15 per pound, and that''s expensive.  A million pounds of that would be 15 million dollars.

 :engel:

By the way ... Rufus ... that's a cool looking avatar with the red dragon on a field of white and green.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on March 01, 2010, 01:05:49 PM
I've got the chocolate, if you have the money.

And I'm not kidding.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: GamesPoet on March 01, 2010, 02:29:16 PM
I've got the chocolate, if you have the money.

And I'm not kidding.
So you are in the chocolate business?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Gneisenau on March 01, 2010, 02:30:59 PM
He's a Belgian. Duh.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on March 01, 2010, 04:10:17 PM
Does this mean we will get Pommes Frites too when we hit the Eurobash?

Oh Gnu why again aren´t you coming?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Finlay on March 01, 2010, 04:25:03 PM
I've got the chocolate, if you have the money.

And I'm not kidding.
So you are in the chocolate business?
He lives in the Guylian town!
I'm going to buy his wife some Guylian from britain as a joke thank you present- hope she gets it!

150 shortbow ungor would be awesome though.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Gneisenau on March 01, 2010, 04:25:36 PM
Oh Gnu why again aren´t you coming?

I'm extinct (according to Midaski).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 01, 2010, 04:28:27 PM
Oh Gnu why again aren´t you coming?

I'm extinct (according to Midaski).

O really that sucks...always figured someone was the Do-Do in the group... :closed-eyes:

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on March 01, 2010, 04:37:05 PM
He can be our extinct mascot....the Gnu-Gnu
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Justnorth on March 01, 2010, 06:24:20 PM
By the way ... Rufus ... that's a cool looking avatar with the red dragon on a field of white and green.

http://www.flags.net/WALE.htm
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 01, 2010, 09:47:37 PM
Well, that was a bunch of strange and disjointed posts with nothing to do with the thread. 

Yes, that many ungor is exensive though. About $300.  $100 less than the cost of the four stompas I own.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Gneisenau on March 01, 2010, 10:00:18 PM
That's not that much more than a normal WHFB-army.

Question is whether they are versatile enough to postpone madness long enough to paint them all?

Or would you end up like the guy with the 1001 Gnoblars?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 01, 2010, 10:19:49 PM
I never could.  I have 60 painted and am looking at another 30 with bows.  That will be plenty thank you very much!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Aldaris on March 01, 2010, 10:22:53 PM
Tell me about it... I am working on my Skaven, and they really test my capacity for suffering.

But it'll be worth it when they're done! I have to keep telling myself that.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: MrDWhitey on March 01, 2010, 10:24:17 PM
I dread to think of the mass painting I will need to do in a few months... for the Eurobash.  :eusa_wall:

But 1001? I saw the pictures and cried.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: GamesPoet on March 01, 2010, 10:24:53 PM
By the way ... Rufus ... that's a cool looking avatar with the red dragon on a field of white and green.

http://www.flags.net/WALE.htm
Cool!  Thanks for the site suggestion. :icon_biggrin: :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on March 02, 2010, 12:45:45 AM
Heh, I meant with Empire.  I have probably played twice as many games with Empire as with Beastmen.

Beastman gunlines would be rather sad, though 150 ungor with shortbows, a guy with the spear, a pile of magic, 4 units of throwing axe armed centigor, and two cygors might be okay.

Phil

The guy with the spear could be better, of course.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 02, 2010, 09:11:13 AM
Trying to decide how big to make my ungor and gor movement trays.

Should I assume that I'll be wanting to run 30 of each or is that unlikely to happen and I should nip it down to 25?

I still haven't played a game with them yet but that should all change this Weds.... even though that will actually be at low point value.

I'm kinda surprised how much you can cram in for 500pts. My army is something like:

Wargor with 0+ save
15 Gors with Standard and Mus
3 Minos
5 Hounds
5 Ungor raiders

Enough there to hopefully mess with people's charges or flanks and get the charges of my own. I'm semi optimistic.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Warlord on March 02, 2010, 11:16:54 AM
I am running my Gor unit at 25, and Ungor at 30.
The rest I am running at 10.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 02, 2010, 11:53:31 AM
I would run gor in the 18 neigborhood.  6 wide.  More than that and you are looking at units that creep up to 250 - 300 points.  25 is the upward maximum.  They are not made to get maximum rank bonus. 

Ungor on the otherhand are great for ranked blocks.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Gneisenau on March 02, 2010, 11:57:49 AM
I would run gor in the 18 neigborhood. 

This brings me unwanted associations of "Gors in da 'Hood"...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on March 02, 2010, 12:59:12 PM
Gor are too expensive to be run at more than 23 i think. Personally i'd wait for 8th ed. and see what kind of block troops will be usefull by then...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 02, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
Well that makes sense. I suppose I could even run the ungors at 5 wide seeing as they are so pitiful at actually hitting anything.  :-P

Finally got round to reading the special characters today. None of them seem all that nasty. If anything they seem kinda expensive. But I don't really use SC so I dunno.

I also read the fluff and I have no idea where all the hate is coming from. I didn't see any references as to how everyone is doomed except that some of the Beasts have visions thus. But what does that really mean? Not a lot seeing as how fickle the chaos gods are.

I actually think the fluff ain't too bad considering how little scope you have when talking about such a one-track mind race. When all you live for is to kill things, there isn't much more to say. I like the feel of the new book.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 02, 2010, 09:07:39 PM
Wait, someone read the fluff and didn't hate it?  You didn't see the piles of info about masses of beastmen days from crushing Altdorf?  Insanity!  You must have read it with an open mind.  How dare you!

:D

As for the SC, Khazrak is actually really good, with his rerollability, really good armor, and average whip.  Not a bad price when you consider a Beastlord with his magic alotment would be 245.  He is only a little more.

Gorthor isn't bad for his cost, if you gave a normal beastlord a chariot and 100 points of items, they would be close to his cost.

The Minotuar is actually a wrecking ball.  T6 and really good magic item (no AS axes) is nice.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Justnorth on March 02, 2010, 09:21:49 PM
I also read the fluff and I have no idea where all the hate is coming from. I didn't see any references as to how everyone is doomed except that some of the Beasts have visions thus. But what does that really mean? Not a lot seeing as how fickle the chaos gods are.
I actually think the fluff ain't too bad considering how little scope you have when talking about such a one-track mind race. When all you live for is to kill things, there isn't much more to say.

I read the fluff last weekend and it seemed pretty sort of regular fodder, nothing dire, nothing inspiring, and definitely nothing to get heated up over, but everyone is different.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 03, 2010, 09:02:16 AM
Wait, someone read the fluff and didn't hate it?  You didn't see the piles of info about masses of beastmen days from crushing Altdorf?  Insanity!  You must have read it with an open mind.  How dare you!

:D


Hehe, I was worried when I picked up the book but it all turned out good. I guess the only way I can think that you could have spiced it up more was to angle even more of it from other race's perspectives. I'm actually kinda going to do that with my fluff in the sense that I am referring to my characters by what the humans know them as.


As for the SC, Khazrak is actually really good, with his rerollability, really good armor, and average whip.  Not a bad price when you consider a Beastlord with his magic alotment would be 245.  He is only a little more.

Gorthor isn't bad for his cost, if you gave a normal beastlord a chariot and 100 points of items, they would be close to his cost.

The Minotuar is actually a wrecking ball.  T6 and really good magic item (no AS axes) is nice.

Maybe they are a fair price, but in that case, another success as far as I see it. I mean, SC should probably have all those special rules, but our ones seem fairly killable too, which is nice. I still don't fully approve of having SC in the book that are already dead (reminds me of the days when Empire had Magnus the Pious... though maybe that was just the model... it was a long time ago and my memory is bad) but tis what it is.

And whilst that Mino is brutal, the fact that he has the potential to be killed by one flukey series of dice rolls is pretty cool, nice twist, especially with Warrior Priests and so forth whose reroll abilities would help such things. I can see a very flufftastic story that could take place in a battle...

Not that I'll ever use them of course but the fact that no one is complaining about them is nice enough.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Warlord on March 03, 2010, 10:18:14 AM
I still don't fully approve of having SC in the book that are already dead (reminds me of the days when Empire had Magnus the Pious... though maybe that was just the model... it was a long time ago and my memory is bad) but tis what it is.

Thats been going on since the O&G book. Gorbad and Grom are both dead. Why they didn't put Wurzhag in the new book is beyond me though.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Mogsam on March 03, 2010, 11:25:48 AM
Azhag is dead too. Only 2 of the 5 Orc characters are actually alive.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 03, 2010, 11:43:48 AM
The thing with the Minotaur SC is that it is extremely unlikely you will ever lose him to that special rule.  You need a 6 to hit, a 6 to wound with the same die, then you need to fail your AS of 1+

And only one of the Beast SC that is actually dead is Gorthor, while the other 7 are alive.

They did well to make the SC similar to the rest of the army with no real wards or AS.

Ghorros is very good too, I forgot that.  4 attacks, primal fury, and d3 wounds.  Making centigor core is huge.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on March 03, 2010, 01:12:29 PM
iirc the minotaur SC gets no armour save upon the double 6. Still, not a very high chance to loose him.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 03, 2010, 06:31:37 PM
Ghorros is very good too, I forgot that.  4 attacks, primal fury, and d3 wounds.  Making centigor core is huge.

Phil

I still wish they'd have made a generic centigor hero option though... that would have been tasty...


iirc the minotaur SC gets no armour save upon the double 6. Still, not a very high chance to loose him.

Really? I thought it said if he fails his save, but I have a bad memory...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 03, 2010, 10:38:01 PM
He gets whatever AS he would get against the attack.  It says it in his rule.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 04, 2010, 01:09:26 AM
He gets whatever AS he would get against the attack.  It says it in his rule.

Phil

You know what though I don't think it would really work unless you're really lucky (the 6,6,fail rule) however I think tooled up dark elves could do it. You have access to so many attacking buffs and/or strength buffs. I was thinking about my assassin today, 4 attacks +d3 + couldron + banner of hydra. Running 7-9 attacks which would be str6 with manbane. Not sure what the chances of a 6-6-4+AS would be but I got a feeling it would be more then anything else around.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 04, 2010, 02:39:34 AM
It will take about 72 attacks with that setting.  1/36 chance of getting two 6's in a row, then half of the time those won't work due to 4+ AS.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 04, 2010, 02:58:10 AM
It will take about 72 attacks with that setting.  1/36 chance of getting two 6's in a row, then half of the time those won't work due to 4+ AS.

Phil

Ah but combined with black guard, with 4 attacks each as well... and maybe 2-3 assassins in the unit...or even flukey good luck!! haha

The mino character I like but I'm still not sure why you would never take a Doombul. Sure he's only ld8 but 6 str8 attacks...oooh boy.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Sig on March 04, 2010, 04:17:20 AM
It's a little bit better than that due to hatred.

The only "viable" way to attempt it is with something with lots of attacks and with no armor saves allowed and hatred.  An Archlector with his hatred, busting out the sword of justice and the VHS might have a chance, rerolling hits and wounds and using the bull's fairly decent strength.

Realistically it's not going to happen.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on March 04, 2010, 07:21:59 AM
With sword of justice and VHS the lector can slaughter the doombull, special rule or not.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 04, 2010, 09:30:47 AM
Realistically?

I think we all know that realistically any character who is supposed to be near invincible is going to die to the first halberdier attack every battle. Stats have nothing to do with it!  :-P
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadoweyed on March 04, 2010, 10:00:28 AM
I agree with Sib here. But I have a question on the topic, it specifies that 'an attack', does shooting count as an attack? That would be nasty to score a 6 to hit and 6 to wound with a Hochland or Bolt Thrower.

I could go either way, just want to see the arguments for whichever side you choose. :engel:

-Shadoweyed
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 04, 2010, 11:58:02 AM
Yeah, shooting counts.  But remember, this guy is going to be buried in a unit.  He is barely any more expensive than a kitted out Doombull, with an AS equal to the best a normal DB can get and a higher toughness.  On top of that, he does an extra S6 impact hit on the charge.

The odds of killing him with any given attack is 1 in 36, then you need to get around his AS.

As for Doombulls, the consensus on BEastman players is that they are probably the main choice for BEastman players in most cases.  Its about a 55% to 45% split between him and the beastlord.  I lean towards the beastlord for the LD9, but some people have had good success with doombulls and 2 gorebulls.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 05, 2010, 02:05:48 AM
Just had my first mini game with Beasts, 500pts, start of an escalation league.

Wargor (1+ save)
15 Gors
3 Minos
5 Ungor Raiders
5 Hounds

vs

Skink on Terradon
2 Razordons
5 Chameleons
10 Skirmishers
10 Skirmishers


I was worried that my army would never see combat but got lucky that my opponent somewhat trapped himself in the corner and I could pen him in. In fairness, he was super unlucky with his shooting. The minotaurs got into combat with the Razordons and it lasted 3 turns so by the end they were pumping out attacks. Man those guys are brutal now.

Also pleased with the raiders. They chomped through both skirmisher units and the chameleons. 30 points well spent!!

So far so good but obviously these kind of battles can only tell you so much. Still, I'm pleased with my army set up and how the book works thus far. Having the primal fury feels right at home having played Dark Elves so much recently.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadowlord on March 05, 2010, 10:07:35 AM
I also read the fluff and I have no idea where all the hate is coming from.

Hate? You mistake sloppy for hate.

I don't hate it, I think there is no thought behind it and it is repetitive beyond comparsion.

Worst written fluff for any book of newer style.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 05, 2010, 12:00:23 PM
To be honest, I read through the lizard man and dwarf fluff last night and found it no less partial to its army.  Beastmen simply lack the historical connections alot of the other armies have.  They are crazy woodland animals.  If the reader isn't into that concept it will be tough to get people into it.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 05, 2010, 04:03:14 PM
Yeh. I can't deny it is repetitive.

But as has been said, beasts are beasts... not much more to them than that...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadowlord on March 05, 2010, 06:33:51 PM
To be honest, I read through the lizard man and dwarf fluff last night and found it no less partial to its army.

Read what I wrote again.  :closed-eyes:

It is not that they aren't written informative or partial, they are repetitive and unimaginative.

Being beasts have nothing to do with it.

They made some cool models, cool models descriptions, fun rules (though, as I have noticed when building armies, too one dimensional for my taste), but it feels like they didn't put any thought behind the fluff. It feels that they ran out of ideas half the way and remembered that they had twice as much to fill the planned pages with.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Justnorth on March 05, 2010, 09:55:55 PM
GW's target market are 11-16 year olds.
If the fluff is a little basic, a little generic and a tad repetitive, it's not going to matter because as a big bunch of kids stop playing this month, and a new big bunch starts playing next month, so the cycle will go on and the fluff will serve it's purpose for it's target market.
If it works, it works.
Maybe you are expecting to much from it Shadow?
Maybe (and I confess I'm a bit like this...) you remember earlier editions when the fluff was made by someone more skilful and the material was more indepth and more intuitive... but those days are gone.
Scale back your expectation and it will become less of an issue.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 06, 2010, 03:15:34 AM
Now that was a post I can agree with Shadowlord!

 :::cheers:::

The fluff is boring, it sot of has to be.  There isn't much it can do when you look at how they are setting the beastmen up this time.  I just really enjoy the beastial madness of it all!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: jturner on March 06, 2010, 03:41:05 AM
I just can't believe Shadowlord is criticizing GW...at all. Don't you own the company or something? Fire the writer, move eighth edition up to next week (just re-release 6th ed rules :icon_wink: and make a new beasts book right away!  Oh yeah, and fire the writers again...along with a couple of redshirts. That's all those guys are good for (firing that is).

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on March 06, 2010, 08:04:05 AM
And employ me for writing the fluff!!! :icon_razz: :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: McKnight on March 06, 2010, 09:58:43 AM
No Mathi, then our army books would look like this:
(http://pacejmiller.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/thick-book2.jpg)


Although i guess Soth would be happy :P


JNorth, how do you know thats their target group?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on March 06, 2010, 11:42:35 AM
But I guarantee that the read would be well worth a mass (to paraphrase Henri de Navarre)  :icon_razz: .

Also, think about it. Having made it through, your ego would be severly boosted and a sense of utter superiority would grip your mind and you could proudly keep your chin up and stare down the punks with pitifully thin books that it took no time to master.  :icon_mrgreen:

Also, it would be an exellent weapon in any rule controversy.  :icon_wink:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 06, 2010, 12:22:36 PM
I reread the Wood Elf fluff last night.  Now that is actually a sweet peice of fluffage.

I liked the Morghur story, and think that the 6th edition version where they opposed Woodelves rather than Empire and BRettonia made more sense.  Empire already has O&G and Chaos as its arch enemy.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: McKnight on March 06, 2010, 12:45:35 PM
Yes, I have always seen beastmen as the arch enemy of the woodelves. Comeon, evil horny critters vs tree lovers, its obvious! :D
Bretonnia doesn fit as their arch enemy. I would rather see Beastmen or even the Empire as the Wood elves' arch enemy.
The Empire would threaten the forrests by their need for expansion and industrialisation.

Also, beasts like to live in forrests. So why shouldnt they fight to geth the WE's?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 06, 2010, 01:02:47 PM
I really don't think the Beast fluff is bad, it is just limited, like the army.  It is about a bunch of crazy animals who have forest orgies, murder people in secluded hamlets, and don't wash.  Pretty cut and dry!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Aldaris on March 06, 2010, 01:05:46 PM
...and don't wash...
Now I have this picture in my head of a Doombull using some deodorant after getting up, only to discover that all the other beastmen are staring at him absolutely appaled.
"What's wrong with you guys? Miss Doombull digs this stuff!"
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 06, 2010, 03:15:50 PM
I think it makes a lot of sense that the Beasts have men as their enemy as everything they stand for is what beastmen hate, plus the men took their lands.

But the Woodelves are still a nemesis too, it goes into that a little in the Beast book. But it makes sense that the Beasts are more hated by the Elves whilst the Empire are more hated by the beasts because it is about what is deemed as being taken or ruined by those armies.

The Empire took the Beast's lands and to their minds destroyed it whilst the Beasts take the Wood Elves lands and to their minds destroyed it. It's like a hate triangle.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadowlord on March 06, 2010, 07:06:40 PM
I just can't believe Shadowlord is criticizing GW...at all.

 :icon_lol: I actually did with the initial prizing of the greatswords, so this is somewhat a second time.

The fluff is boring, it sot of has to be.  There isn't much it can do when you look at how they are setting the beastmen up this time.  I just really enjoy the beastial madness of it all!

I agree and disagree. I agree with the beastial madness, the loss of non-beast units and the like. But to say the fluff has to be boring is a no-no from me. It is not the background as such, but more how it is written, its repetitive flavor, and failure to make a meaty fluff.

Maybe you are expecting to much from it Shadow?

I'm just gonna ignore most of your post like the others in this thread, but I can answer this one as a regular question not tied to the rest of your sentences.

YES! I expected much more from the new beastmen book. I was happy when I first heard what reliable sources wrote about the beasts. Love the way they made them primitive and I love the human look of some of the ungors - that could be some awesome add to the fluff. Overall I was extremely disappointed the writers failed to fill out the pages and they failed to make the fluff text as interesting as the rest of the release.

That being said, never say never (except for Empire).  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on March 06, 2010, 10:43:21 PM
I reread the Wood Elf fluff last night.  Now that is actually a sweet peice of fluffage.

Mainly because a lot of it is adapted from folklore.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 06, 2010, 11:36:27 PM
Well, that shouldn't impact its effectiveness.  Most of the rest of GW's fluff for fantasy is adapted from Tolkien and horrid puns of real world events.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: rufus sparkfire on March 07, 2010, 12:11:40 AM
I mean that it is good because it's based on something good. It's the same with the Empire fluff.

That's one reason the dark elf fluff is so bad: it's not really based on anything, apart from dark elves enjoying killing each other.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 07, 2010, 06:03:51 AM
I agree there. I view Dark elves as really realy callous and cold haughty and arrogant with disregard for any life. Unlike High Elves who are cold, haughty and arrogant but have a respect for life.

I did like the idea of generations of special breeding by Morathai and Malekith to promote the hatred and jealousy druchii have for asur.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Justnorth on March 07, 2010, 07:56:14 AM
I'm just gonna ignore most of your post, but I can answer this one as a regular question not tied to the rest of your sentences.

Gosh, thats awfully big of you...  :icon_rolleyes: 

YES! I expected much more from the new beastmen book.

Why?
It's not like there is a precedent to go from.
YOU are not the target market, get used to it, get over it.
Your expectations are too 'old' (old in the sense of mature) for the target market.
So borrow from the geography and the background and make your own fluff and be happy with that. :mellow:
Thats what I've been doing for years in my games.
So have many others, it keeps our games amusing and a little more indepth.

I was happy when I first heard what reliable sources wrote about the beasts. Love the way they made them primitive and I love the human look of some of the ungors - that could be some awesome add to the fluff.

Thats a good point, in the sense that they might have shown how humans are drawn to the darkness in the forest from their villages by a dark power, lured in to become one with the Beast Gods... however, extrapolating in that fashion is a little mature compared with the vision GW design team have for the Beasts, perhaps they are concerned with alienating their target market with too much prose fluff, or pigeon holing the Beasts too much so... thats the way the cookie crumbles... at least for another 6 years until the next Beast release.

Overall I was extremely disappointed the writers failed to fill out the pages and they failed to make the fluff text as interesting as the rest of the release.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadowlord on March 07, 2010, 10:34:01 AM
Why?
It's not like there is a precedent to go from.
YOU are not the target market, get used to it, get over it.

You fail to understand that it is the only AB I have been disappointed with the actual fluff.

The rest are just up my alley.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Justnorth on March 07, 2010, 09:27:31 PM
Fair enough.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on March 07, 2010, 09:35:12 PM
That quake in Chili really did shake the earths' axis...

The two of you engaging in close to mature discussion...

 :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Justnorth on March 07, 2010, 09:38:20 PM
Bloody hell Soth, then you had to go and spoil it...   :icon_razz:

 :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 07, 2010, 10:35:18 PM
The ungor special characters is an example of a person becoming a beast, and there is a short poem about another person changing in another part of the book.

Also, I don't know if putting all sorts of information about orgies and a centigor who drinks all the time and mates ranks as mature or not, but it fits my purpose.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 08, 2010, 01:14:24 AM
AH Grilly-P...

Isn't Morghur meant to have been born of human parents and mutated like all tzeentch the moment he was born destroying his entire village?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 08, 2010, 01:52:30 AM
Morghur is born to human parents in the most recent incarnation, but he dies and is reborn on a regular basis.  There is evidence that he has been born to normal animals in the past too.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 08, 2010, 05:23:49 AM
Ah the Buddhist Beastman.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 08, 2010, 09:08:55 AM
Just to cut in to say second game on Saturday night and it was against WoC.

It came down to 2 combats, my gors and wargor against 20 marauders and the other was my minotaurs against 10 Chaos Warriors.

Well, the Gors won theirs even having had to survive a charge whilst the Minos lost theirs even though they were the chargers. Then both winning units swung round and hit each other but this time my Wargor's brutal attacks were not enough and the rest of his unit were buthchered. He soon followed. It turned out to be a solid victory to the WoC, but a jolly good bloodbath.  :happy:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on March 08, 2010, 09:12:50 AM
Hmm... I must admit that Warriors of Chaos sounds like really awesome dudes... :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on March 08, 2010, 11:01:53 AM
I guess the Minos had no greatweapons and the warriors used Hw+shield? For the Chaos-cans str.5 is still not enough. 2+ AS on infantry. Madness!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Shadowlord on March 08, 2010, 11:21:44 AM
The two of you engaging in close to mature discussion...

Now I am confused...

 :icon_confused:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: phillyt on March 08, 2010, 11:26:03 AM
Minos should beat Chaos Warriors 9 times out of ten if they have GW and if you still have all 4 of them alive.

But CW are nasty little jerks...  I too struggled against WoC.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on March 08, 2010, 12:11:33 PM
With GW yes, without it gets hard. 4 Minos with AHW will kill only 2-3 Chaoswarriors, the 3-4 left to strike back will inflict 1-2 wounds and then it comes down to passive CR.
And that is assuming 4 Minos, not 3. Seeing such a calculation it is hard to believe that Chaos warriors are as bad as they are!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 08, 2010, 03:54:20 PM
I should interject at this point, head hung low, and admit that I didn't give them GW... or indeed AHW... I gave them shields...

I'd have to drop either some of my Gors, or a whole unit of hounds or raiders to get GW and they are too useful at only 500pts to not take, whilst losing some of the Gors would take away their staying power. I ran them 7 wide for some major destruction, even after the marauders had bashed me.

So yes, my strength 5 minos were not enough. When the escalation league moves up to the next points level, they'll get the great weapons and all shall fear them! Mwuhahaha!

All I can say is that I'm glad she didn't take Chaos Knights cos I had nothing to take those guys down. They'd have eaten me alive.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on March 08, 2010, 07:47:53 PM
Hmm... when I am done with my projects, I might consider doing a joint Chaos project, doing a Warriors of Chaos and Chaos space marines armies parallell. Could a be great opportunity for interchanging bits and such...

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 10, 2010, 01:27:35 AM
So third mini game this week. Took on ogres: 2 units of Bulls with a Ogre Hero. I switched out my warhounds for GW on the minos.

I then proceeded to be crushed. Problem was we ran into the old issue of who is going to make the first move and I did, putting my minos in charge range so that in the next turn I'd be able to flank with my gors. That never got round to happening though as my Minos were flattened and the Bulls gave chase. Then, just as I thought the other Bull unit was in range, my gors decide to fail their fear test and not charge in. They proceed to be eaten alive by that unit failing their fear tests 2 more times after that so that anyone left standing had to hit on 6s.

Ah well, valuable lesson learnt. I have nothing that can take an ogre charge so next time form a new plan to stop such things happening.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: FR1DAY on March 10, 2010, 02:19:29 PM
could have diverted them with the hounds. and got the charge then.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 10, 2010, 03:06:13 PM
Yeah. In retrospect I wish I'd kept the hounds for this battle. Not only would I have had an extra expendable unit, but my minos would have had a 5+ save instead of no save against all the ogres attacks.  :|
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 12, 2010, 03:24:47 PM
I had another game vs lizards last night.

He took 10 temple guard, 10 spear saurus, 10 skirmishers and a priest.

I pretty much divided up his army into manageable pieces, luring off the spears with my hounds until they were out of the game and running over the skinks with priest with my minotaurs, albeit only having one left by that point due to nasty magic which left my gors to deal with the temple guard. I got lucky, won the combat by 1 and he managed to roll two 5s and a 6 for his Ld so they went packing and got trampled. Massacre to me. I'm really liking these minotaurs better having the shields for saves over the greatweapons for kills right now.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: wissenlander on March 12, 2010, 03:41:13 PM
I believe this is a fair representation of how my one and only battle against beastmen went.  I think Siby can confirm this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuQD0OBdaGE&feature=related
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on March 12, 2010, 03:48:47 PM
Great series!


 :Ohmy:

so your General  got chocked to death by an Ungor?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: wissenlander on March 12, 2010, 03:49:37 PM
Amongst other things...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 12, 2010, 08:56:56 PM
I can't deny it...

I really must get the pictures from Rover...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: wissenlander on March 12, 2010, 10:49:02 PM
Yes, you should.  Another gentle reminder. :wink:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 15, 2010, 12:44:29 AM
Two things...

I'm guessing harpies are supposed to be on man size bases like the dark elf ones.

And the other thing is the move spell. If I read it right, you can't use it to charge, just to get close. That severely limits it to my mind. Being beasty and not wearing much armour, it's all about getting the charge in. I guess for a turn or two at first it would help get across the board, but after that it's almost useless cos you are just setting yourself up to get charged. Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Taureus on March 15, 2010, 12:51:19 AM
Two things...

I'm guessing harpies are supposed to be on man size bases like the dark elf ones.

And the other thing is the move spell. If I read it right, you can't use it to charge, just to get close. That severely limits it to my mind. Being beasty and not wearing much armour, it's all about getting the charge in. I guess for a turn or two at first it would help get across the board, but after that it's almost useless cos you are just setting yourself up to get charged. Or am I missing something?

With the rumour that magic may come before movement in 8th, that spell becomes a LOT better. Otherwise you are right, it's just not very good for the intended purpose of setting up charges.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 15, 2010, 04:58:44 AM
got my ass handed to me by Beastmen on Saturday.

Gorthor
Slungtongue (took out 200pts of my army before the game even began...)
lv2
Gorbull BSB

6x5 skirmish ungor (3 in ambush)
3x5 hounds
25 Bestigor - Gorbull in here
7 scouting harpies
2x7 harpies
Jabberslythe
Jabberslyth
5 Tuskgor Chariots.

I used:

Dreadlord - HA, Shield, SDC, Greatweapon, Potion of Strength, Black Amulet (in BG)
Mage - lv2, 2xDS
Mage - lv2, 2xDS
BSB  - Darksteed, HA, shield, SDC, Sword of might, Pendant

2x10 bowmen
6 dark riders - muso
7 shades- greatweapon
 - assassin, rending stars, manbane, AHW
15 black guard -FC, ASF banner
 - assassin, AHW, +d3 attacks, Killing blow
6 COK - FC, standard of slaughter
2xHydras.

I was pretty outplayed. Although there was one major contention which I lost - rules wise, not hte douchy bugger wise I won.

3 of the chariots charged my black guard - which I thought was fine, My Lord was in the middle of the unit and hence by my calculations (considering we had the same frontage) I should have 2 chariots in base to base and with 4 str9 attacks I figure I'd be able to take both out after impact hits.

so it would have been:

C1C2C3
BBLBBBB

However with the sliding/maximizing rules we play here it looked like this..
  C1C2C#
BBLBBBB

so only in contact with 1.

That shat me quite a bit but I ended up doing the same shit to him later on to which he screamed FOUL and called the store manager over and all his friends (like usual I was playing a collection of people).

But he just had units out the ears and I found myself getting nearly every unit (bar the bestigor) under half strength but I only fully killed 1 jabber, 2 hounds and 3 ungor.

My lord did pretty well. Took out 3 chariots and the Gorbull which I thought was pretty cinematic when i had him (using the executioner model with the raised sword) in contact with the Gorebull surrounded by ungor and harpies.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 15, 2010, 08:00:27 AM

With the rumour that magic may come before movement in 8th, that spell becomes a LOT better. Otherwise you are right, it's just not very good for the intended purpose of setting up charges.

Ah.... that's one of the rumours I hadn't heard... but makes the spell a lot better... thanks.

Anyone able to give any concrete substance to the harpy base size thing?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Moxer on March 15, 2010, 09:26:58 AM
Harpies are sold on 20 mm bases, so they are to be put on 20 mm bases.

@Ben: In a hard environment like yours i am not at all surprised by "maximising with getting the lord as few contact as possible". Actually i'd play it like that too, it's completly legal.

Calling you foul on the other hand for doing the same... :dry:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 15, 2010, 09:36:41 AM
Harpies are sold on 20 mm bases, so they are to be put on 20 mm bases.

@Ben: In a hard environment like yours i am not at all surprised by "maximising with getting the lord as few contact as possible". Actually i'd play it like that too, it's completly legal.

Calling you foul on the other hand for doing the same... :dry:

O it's entirely legal I knew that. I just found it douchy game play (we do have a code of conduct here...)

which is why I had no qualms doing the same

I've seen people maxmize giants/ dragons like this.

    GG
DD

all combatants fighting and it will ensure I get maximum overhang for pursuit charges...

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Siberius on March 15, 2010, 02:35:57 PM
Harpies are sold on 20 mm bases, so they are to be put on 20 mm bases.


Thanks, mine are such a mess of different kinds, I wanted to be sure.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: dagonaki on March 15, 2010, 05:39:09 PM
It is legal, but cheezy. you are supposed to endeavor to hit the unit as squarly as possible. If the character is in the middle of the unit, he should be in combat 90% of the time. Side note...1 unit of dark riders???
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 16, 2010, 01:16:06 AM
It is legal, but cheezy. you are supposed to endeavor to hit the unit as squarly as possible. If the character is in the middle of the unit, he should be in combat 90% of the time. Side note...1 unit of dark riders???

haha we should carry this on in the dark elf thread but yea my list needs massive work, each individual part is good but the sum of all parts doesn't seem to work very well (or at least I'm not playing it very well).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on March 16, 2010, 11:34:04 AM
You are not forced to center on a unit, you are forced to maximize chargers in contact.  The DE example is perfectly legal and I don't see where it is chessy.  The Giant Dragon one is pretty stupid though.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on March 16, 2010, 12:12:51 PM
I'd say the giant/dragon one is legal and fine, too. If a full overlap would lead to running into something i don't want to run into i will try to clip.
The problem is how far can you go? I admit that placing the two corner-to-corner would indeed be silly, although still legal.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 16, 2010, 03:12:13 PM
I'd say the giant/dragon one is legal and fine, too. If a full overlap would lead to running into something i don't want to run into i will try to clip.
The problem is how far can you go? I admit that placing the two corner-to-corner would indeed be silly, although still legal.

It depends on who you are playing and how I guess.

I get annoyed when I see it happen but I don't raise an issue (may whine about it afterwards) thing is when someone does it to me I immediately take it as a green light to do it back.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Taureus on March 16, 2010, 08:55:52 PM
It depends on who you are playing and how I guess.

I get annoyed when I see it happen but I don't raise an issue (may whine about it afterwards) thing is when someone does it to me I immediately take it as a green light to do it back.

Not really. The two bases are in contact, and no other units are present to fight in that combat.

All units are maximized for combat, so they don't have to slide at all. Nor are they required to slide.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 17, 2010, 12:49:21 AM
You need to slide to get it to look like

    GG
 DD

especially when the charge was

  GG


  DD

Like i said entirely legal. But I'm sure many guys on this forum would dislike it being played against them  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Taureus on March 17, 2010, 06:02:45 AM
If they were lined up exactly across from each other, than yes you could slide them. But if the charge angle was slightly skewed, you wouldn't have to.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Obi on March 17, 2010, 08:09:32 AM
Just wanted to hop in to congratulate you guys on being the biggest thread now. 3rd by views (you've passed Otaku and will soon conquer the soth).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 17, 2010, 08:11:20 AM
Two games last night. First against Goblins which was horrible because he had 3 units of Night Goblins, all with 3 fanatics. I took a major pounding on my way over, even using my spawn and hounds to pull out the fanatics. Fortunately, even charging through the horrors, enough of my guys survived to kill the gobbos and I got lucky enough that his warpath stomped his own shaman!

Second game against lizards and my minos got the charge on his unit of temple guard with old blood, getting an amazing 5 kills (and I forgot impact hits, oops!) so they ran off, I rolling a 6 for pursuit to his 6. Bit lucky frankly, but those minos are proving to be the game winners or losers for me near every time. Gotta love them!

This week we now go up to 750 points, so I need to decide what might compliment what I already have...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 17, 2010, 08:59:33 AM
whats in your list again?

Maybe some harpies? or a tuskgor chariot? or even a lv1 or 2 mage to give you a nice magic edge. Although in these escalation leagues I prefer 1 character every 750 or so pts (I got up to 1500pts with only 1 character before going for my next) as troops are just important and it's better to get them out of the way early IMHO.

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on March 17, 2010, 10:05:43 AM
Siby's 500 points list:
Wargor (1+ save)
15 Gors
3 Minos
5 Ungor Raiders
5 Hounds

The nasty option would be to take out the hounds and add a Gorgon or Jabberslythe...
You can have three special choices?

Then i'd go for:
5 raiders 30 (can ambush these)
1 Razorgor 55 (great support unit and capable of killing light cavalry or small shooty units on its own)
7 harpies 77 (at 750 points the first warmichines will turn up, harpies deal with them. Also great for screening the minos and diverting)
1 Tuskgor chariot 80 (good to support the gor unit or go with the minos to have something that actually catches fleeing enemies)

8 points left  for another gor
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on March 17, 2010, 11:01:43 AM
Just wanted to hop in to congratulate you guys on being the biggest thread now. 3rd by views (you've passed Otaku and will soon conquer the soth).

Now where's my padlock...
 
I noticed the rise of this thread too. Ironical, that the most viewed thread on an Empire forum is about beasts, don't you agree ?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Finlay on March 17, 2010, 12:37:03 PM
I don't really think so.
If anything I see it as a testament to the overall strength of this site and the members here that 3 out of the top 10 threads are about other armies. People would rather discuss them here than go to other worse forums!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: rufus sparkfire on March 17, 2010, 12:39:54 PM
I imagine that if you combined all the Empire stuff from the forum into one thread, it would be a little larger than this one...

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Obi on March 17, 2010, 12:40:01 PM
That is definitely true finlay.

You didn't put that ogre up here for no reason either soth!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 17, 2010, 03:38:07 PM
Siby's 500 points list:
Wargor (1+ save)
15 Gors
3 Minos
5 Ungor Raiders
5 Hounds

The nasty option would be to take out the hounds and add a Gorgon or Jabberslythe...
You can have three special choices?

Then i'd go for:
5 raiders 30 (can ambush these)
1 Razorgor 55 (great support unit and capable of killing light cavalry or small shooty units on its own)
7 harpies 77 (at 750 points the first warmichines will turn up, harpies deal with them. Also great for screening the minos and diverting)
1 Tuskgor chariot 80 (good to support the gor unit or go with the minos to have something that actually catches fleeing enemies)

8 points left  for another gor

I agree, you bought the box of 10 ungor so you may as well make use of the other models and you can ambush if you feel like.

I'd go with a couple of chariots (thats 160 + 30 = 190pts) how much do we have left to spend?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 17, 2010, 04:49:03 PM
I imagine that if you combined all the Empire stuff from the forum into one thread, it would be a little larger than this one...

I think this is a good point. I was just thinking about it when Obi mentioned and I think that the size of the thread is probably good because it means we're being contained to one little area rather than starting new topics about another army constantly. Why beasts over anything else though I couldn't say. I definitely like to get in my Beastly discussion though and this forum is so alive compared to others and sometimes people chip in who don't even play beasts which is cool.

I think the recent controversy over the new models, rumours about the new book and discussion about it since it's come out has really rejuvenated things too.

Who'd have thought that we'd come full circle from the initial post complaining about Minotaurs to the recent barrage on the exact same topic  :wink:.


Anyways...

Thanks for the input on the armylist guys, as it happens, this week we got bonus points for winning games so by the last game I had 100pts extra to spend.

I actually took out my Wargor and subbed in a Shaman for the last two games as well as adding a spawn and a razorgor. They really helped me in the last game because I could use them to hold up/divert the saurus spears whilst my minos dealt with the temple guard.

I'm loving the idea of using 2 razorgors as one unit. 8 strength 5 or 6 attacks is pretty nasty and possibly more reliable than outright paying for a razorgor chariot (which I don't have modelled anyway). I think the spawn may be an overlooked goody now too what with all our other monsters.

His toughness 5 and unbreakable make him a useful flank holder for me. They have to pump quite a lot of fire into him to prevent him getting up there and messing up their plans. For only 55pts, he can be a bit more solid than trying to use warhounds for the task.

So to get back to the list, I am liking the shaman going into this round. Whilst I'll miss the wargor's hitting power, the ability to hit things from afar with death magic is too useful to take out those things which cause me issues getting across the board (razordons, enemy mages, fanatics etc).

I like the idea of an additional unit of raiders who I can ambush. Always loved ambushing, even though it's not quite the same anymore.

Probably throw in a couple of razorgors and see how people deal with my move 14" stampede!

Not sure I'll need the harpies ironically after spending a frantic week painting them. The other armies are (I think) WoC, WoC, Lizards, Lizards, Ogres, Orcs and Goblins... maybe something else but I haven't faced it yet if there is. Not much war machine potential.

Very likely to throw in a tuskgor chariot or two. They're cheap and people panic and let's face it, I don't have to face war machines! I'm even tempted to drop the gors and grab another unit of minos so I have two, each with a chariot.

I'll have to work on this and see how many points I got going here.... probably about 3000 now  :icon_razz:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Finlay on March 17, 2010, 11:58:04 PM
@ Siby.
ME, you, philly, and Crimson, are all fairly prolific posters, and in the middle part of this thread when we were talking about the army and painting stuff up, we would post a lot!
And then of course all the new book talk propelled us once more, with the modelling controversy drawing in lots of other people too.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 20, 2010, 08:11:17 AM
Well I got all this weeks games in in one day, yesterday. 750pts.

I took give or take:

Shaman L2
3 Minos
Chariot
Chariot
6 Raiders
6 Raiders (ambush)
Razorgor
Razorgor


First game was O&G.

This guy is taking nutty armies and they ain't easy to beat. He basically uses a few night goblin units pumped full of fanatics, sits back and blasts you with 3 goblin shamans. Oh and he brought a doomdiver this time too.

The game was a massive slaughter-fest where at the end the only things left of the board were his shaman and doomdiver. I think it would have been a draw or slight win to me had the last fanatic on the board not decided to plow right through my own shaman and kill him...


Second game was lizards:

This guy has not been having good results so he took an ancient steg with a unit of skinks either side, each holding a priest. I did not expect to do well but I managed to lure him into charging my ungors who I then fled and set him up for a minotaur charge, but low and behold... they failed their fear test.  :unsure: So he charged my minos who I promptly fled (2d6 impact hits, no thanks!). This gave me time to set him up for a magical charge and divert him away from them.

The rest of my army had been concentrating on his skinks, taking out the wizards (I was not enjoying the comet potential). Anyway, somehow, by keeping the steg away from anything too major (aside from my shaman who got it in the face again, oops) I was able to whittle everything else he had down or dead to graze a narrow victory, huzzah!


Game 3 was Lizards of another variety.

This time I faced 2 saurus units and a cold one unit with general. He basically holed himself up in the corner making it hard to approach without facing something nasty. But I slammed a razorgor right up in his cold one's faces so that they had to charge it and go past the minos who charged the 2 saurus units, one of which miraculously fled off the table leaving the minos to make short work of the other.

He had horrendous rolling and I felt bad winning so easily. It was one of those where my dice just kept rolling high and his low. So massacre to me.



Looking forward to next week and 1000pts but people are beginning to bring some scary stuff. We'll see how my guys hold up against monsters and such I guess...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: FR1DAY on March 20, 2010, 12:55:02 PM
Don't feel bad about game three. Bad dice are the result of an overty defensive policy.
That is what happens when you hole up close to the edge and pick a un manouverable army. Good job on the wins.

Still think e units of hounds totally only 60pts is a good call.
 
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 20, 2010, 02:45:30 PM
Yeah, I may well run them in the 1000pts battles. The only downside is I am facing barely and under T4 armies and unfortunately lots of S4 troops which will eat hounds for breakfast.  :|
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Finlay on March 21, 2010, 12:45:24 AM
But siby, hounds are meant to die!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on March 21, 2010, 10:48:14 AM
You won't really have much of a clue how the army will really run until you hit 1000 points.  500 really isn't enough to get a clear indication of what will work.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 21, 2010, 11:14:58 AM
I'll get an idea how it runs at 500pts  :wink: :-P.

But yeh, I'm hoping, once this league is over to get in a good old 2000pt battle against my brother's lizards. See how I hold up against that...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on March 22, 2010, 07:28:47 AM
People bringing 3 shamen or an ancient stegadon at 750 points! :icon_eek:
Expect some really nasty stuff at 1000...

You might go nasty yourself and bring a jabber. At 1000 points there won't be high Ld around, but you need to protect it from artillery.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 22, 2010, 07:56:22 AM
It is tempting I'll admit. Not enjoying the large monsters and I've been reasonably conservative so far, though I feel bad about dropping the Gors in this last round for chariots. But hey, when you know you're going to be facing mean stuff like this, why not eh?

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on March 23, 2010, 01:01:25 AM
I'll get an idea how it runs at 500pts  :wink: :-P.

But yeh, I'm hoping, once this league is over to get in a good old 2000pt battle against my brother's lizards. See how I hold up against that...

I didn't actually mean you or even the BEastmen so much as the match ups and combinations that start creating problems.  Those sorts of things aren't really too evident at 500 points.  You just don't have the flexibility to see them.

No knocks on you bud!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 23, 2010, 02:59:40 PM
Hehe.

We start on the 1000pts tomorrow. I'm tempted to try and put more into ambushing. It's not really as dodgy under the new rules as I thought. Sure there is a chance they will get to set up on your table edge, but there is also a goodly chance you will be behind or nearly behind their lines. And with skirmished archers, that's a pain in the butt, especially if they have wizards wandering around back there.

I also wonder about taking 10-12 Gors in ambush because getting hit in the flank or rear by that should really hurt. My opponents would probably have to channel quite a bit into dealing with the threat of two 5 raider units and one Gor unit.

Then I might just run the rest of my army (maybe minos and chariots) up the front.


I forgot to mention that in my last game against lizards I got the perfect set-up. I gave my scouting shaman beast lore and he got the bolt-thrower spell. I was all ready to cause some major havok plowing spears through the flanks when he miscast losing the ability to cast the spell and a level.

Ouchy.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on March 23, 2010, 03:55:13 PM
I am not sure if going ambush-heavy is that good at low points games. How big are your tables? On 4x4 ambushing is probably fine, on 6x4 with 1000 points i would not ambush more than two units of raiders or so.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 23, 2010, 04:29:10 PM
We were playing 4x4... but come to think of it, they may up it to 4x6 this week. Maybe I'll hold off until my second game to find out. Probably still take two units of raiders, one for screening my minos and the other for potential ambush annoyance. Too good value for just 60 points. Plus, somewhat ridiculously, it fills up your core requirements.  :-P
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on March 26, 2010, 11:58:45 AM
I had a brief look at the April WD, it features the elaborate beastmen tactics and army lists of Phil Kelly. Is is the kind of stuff you expect from a WD article...
"Beastmen are a horde army" next sentence "because they have such cheap troops you have plenty of points left for big monsters". "To make ambush work you need at least three to four units in ambush" (One of the two army lists features two ambushing units...at 3000 points).
Generally i learned that ambush is teh awesome and that you have to take Khazrak of course.

The 2000 points list they show off consists of:
Khazrak
Wargor BSB with the dark chalice, HA, shield.
LVL1 shaman with a scroll and the hagtree fetish
" Ha, i will cast a magic missile with TWO dice each turn and will be allowed to reroll my wounds! What, you are allowed to dispell?" :eusa_wall: Saddest magic phase ever!

Core:
4-5 15-25 blocks of Gor, 2 of these going in ambush
2 Blocks of ungor, 1 is in ambush
2 units of raiders, again one in ambush
Tuskgor chariot
Well, probably not the hardest thing one can do, but looks like  nice bunch of blocks.

Special:
5 Centigors
small block of bestigors
That's it. Two special slots with the worst choices of the book. No rare!

They also had a 3000 points monster list, i stopped reading after the first entry which was a doombull with HA. Yup, they gave him heavy armour and nothing else.  :icon_rolleyes:

Another article featured "stand and shoot" armies. Gunlines of the nastiest sort.
DE with 4 Repeaters, 2 units of crossbows, 2 units of shades, LVL4, 2xLVL2, dark riders, harpies and a combat unit or two.

Dwarves with Thorek, 2 organ guns, cannon, grudge thrower, 2 boltthrowers, handguns, crossbows and a unit of miners.

It's amazing how the communiy tries to balance armys and make lists fun to play and GW always manages to advertise either super-weak or super cheesy armies in WD.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on March 26, 2010, 10:29:23 PM
It looks like one of those stupid lists they do where they field what they have painted.

Who wouldn't put SOMETHING on the Doombull?

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on March 26, 2010, 11:32:25 PM
I think they can't make balanced armybooks because they don't know how to make balanced lists.

Both sets of lists you describe are an absolute joke.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 27, 2010, 12:11:54 AM
Talking of balanced lists, hehe, I played two 1000pt battles today in the escalation league.

I have been finding my minotaurs to be make or break. As the only real hitting power in my army they either storm through and win me the game or they crumble and I fade away.

So I thought maybe now is the time to kit them up nice and see what they can really do.

My army:

H} Gorebull: H.A, Sh, Claw things & 5+ Scaly Skin thing.

S} 5 Minos: Full Command, Ramhorn Helm on Champ.

H} L2 Shaman: Skin of Man

S} 5 Harpies - scouts

C} Tuskgor Chariot

C} 8 Raiders (with musician)

C} 5 Raiders - ambush

C} 5 Raiders

C} 5 Raiders - ambush



So with this army it was all on the minos to deliver with a touch of back-up from the shaman and chariot if I got lucky. The rest of the army is purely annoyance, mopping up and screening.


Battle 1 - Lizards

Engine of Gods
10 Saurus Warriors
10 Skirmishers with priest
8 Cold One Knights


To be honest, not a walk in the park because -skinks aside- there is some fair mobility and hitting power here. My chariot was blasted to pieces in the first magic phase by forked lightning in a box. I got a bit worried by this but I know my Minos can hold their own. I was lucky and got the charge on the stegadon (forgot my impact hits!). My hero took out the priest but it stayed in place stubbornly.

I then got flank charged one side by the knights and the other by the saurus warriors. Youchy! Thankfully the knights and saurus failed to do much damage (in the challenge the champion challenged, hit my guy who saved and the helm rebounded an attack on him that killed him, 15pts well spent!). I put attacks onto the skink crew for body count and my minos took out about 4 of the saurus which won the combat by two. Huzzah super-minos! The crazy thing was then all three units broke and fled!!

Next turn my minos chased the steg off the board and in the next couple of turns turned and prepared to take on the cold ones. My scouting shaman managed to get Beast Cowers off at last (skink priests all dead) to hold the cold ones so that I got the charge. By this point my minos were rediculously pumped up. I shudder to think how many attacks they potentially had, hang on, I'll work it out... (up to 29 + up to 6 Impacts!). Needless to say they trampled the cold ones where they stood.

I managed to edge a massacre which felt really good, though I felt bad for the guy failing all those 3 dice ld tests.



Game 2 - Ogres

5 Bulls + Hero
5 Bulls
3 Leadbelchers + Butcher


This was more of a test because I knew getting the charge could be vital. My harpies flew straight behind the ogres to hold them up and provide potential crossfire fleeing. I marched my minos up behind their ungor screen which took the brunt of the magical onslaught from the butcher, which was fine by me as it cleared the way. She knew I'd not let the ogres get the charge off so she moved up, little did I know that she had evil plans for my general.

I charged into the bulls with the hero, she challenged and I accepted with my general. I got 1 or 2 wounds. Grr at toughness 5! Then she hit me back with great weapon and some magic doodah that does D3 wounds. Bye bye General. Thankfully the rest of my unit and impact hits combined killed two of her ogres, winning me the combat. She held on ld3! My ungors were preventing her other bulls from flanking me so next turn she issued a challenge. I figured hold off the general from eating my whole unit and accepted. I attacked first and somehow chopped down her general. That was big and her other ogre fled.

Her butcher had been wounding himself doing magic and I was letting most everything through except the one that heals him so when he was down to 1 wound I stole his soul (took dark magic this game).

She conceded the game at this point, partially because she had to head out, but she said the writing was on the wall. In fairness, my minos were pumped up and about to charge into the second bull unit and I had her leadbelchers surrounded so I felt like I was about to wrap things up.



All in all I totally loved playing this list. My opponents didn't put enough into killing the minos. People around here have a lot of fear about the chariot and with all my ambushing/scouting units buzzing around, some fire was probably leveled at non-threats, but I guess I should at least partially credit myself for making them seem like threats...

The minotaurs were scary once they got going. They really are a make or break unit. With the hero in there too they become really really nice. Not having to worry about terror or panic tests was extremely comforting after the last few games where my beasts have been prone to stage fright. I don't really like to have a all-eggs in one basket unit like that normally because I know that if it drops, all my eggs are broken and it's game over, but I'm real close to winning this league and you get a free battalion box so I went gung ho!

The shaman scout is really tasty too. Both battles today he popped up and did something really important just when I needed and starting out from the battle line on the flanks it was easy to keep him out of danger. Harpies, not bad. They feel expensive when set next to raiders but being able to march block from turn one and then buzz wherever they are needed to mop up fleeing units was really cool...

One more game tomorrow and then I'm done. Liking the beasts right now  :evil:....
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 27, 2010, 01:46:36 AM
I realize the Gorbull is your general but what about making it a BSB for extra CR and and staying power?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 27, 2010, 01:29:39 PM
Not a bad idea. I originally wanted to go for 2 units of Minos with the hero as he is and the other unit with battle standard and minos with great weapons and then give them the -armour save banner. But I realised that unless I come up against Chaos Knights or the like, S7 should be enough... plus just the 2 units with characters alone came to over 1000pts!

But having him as a BSB could work. Don't get much LD value from him only being Ld7 anyways. May aswell be the Shaman who keeps off to the side.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 28, 2010, 09:55:01 PM
Well, my final battle of the league was against my brother's Lizards. He decided not to go easy on me so I could get the definite win but instead took:

Saurus Hero
32 Saurus Warriors (!)
Stegadon with Giant Bow (and hero fellow with spear)
10 Skirmishers


Frankly, I didn't quite know how to approach as he held back in the corner and invited me on. This is where not having a second combat unit let me down. I was able to surround the saurus block and charge all in at the same time, but my Mino killing machines and Mini Monsters, even wiping out 8 of them lost combat by one and decided to peg it. Alas, even though they rallied, they then got hit by the stegadon who I had up until that point diverted.

The Minos, having lost their bloodlust gave up the ghost and fled in the last turn. Having got half points for his skink hero and on the Steg and claiming an extra board quarter, it was a solid victory rather than a massacre, but it wasn't pretty non the less. I suppose it may well have been a different story had I inflicted a couple more wounds in that first combat but eh.

I guess by Wednesday we'll see if I've won overall. If so, free Battalion Box coming my way! Fingers crossed...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on March 28, 2010, 10:46:58 PM
Good luck buddy!  What are you going to get for a battalion?  The Beastman one sucks... badly.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 29, 2010, 12:16:46 AM
Probably the Dark Elf one  :-P.

After getting the Empire Brigade I have enough Empire to keep me going for some time...

The Dark Elf one has almost all useful stuff if I remember. Whilst I have a reasonable amount of spears, I'd like enough for 2 goodly sized units or even 3 smaller units and I'll probably use a few of them as crossbowmen to bolster my units to 2 of 10 (unless I already have that, I forget...). The corsairs will be the best thing because I only have 10 of the new ones and I refuse to use the 2-editions-old metal ones I have *shudder*. The ones I have now are armed with the bows so I'd arm these with 2HW and that way I can just slot the bow ones in if I want to field a decent size unit of fighters or split them up if I really feel like it. The Knights I can use for spare character steeds and parts. So everything is good.

*Checking out Beasts Box...*

Hmm. Whilst I love the new Bestigor models, 10 of them is rather useless and frankly looking at their stats they are fairly useless in general. 20 Gors would help pump me up to two decent size gor units but when it comes down to it, I'm not using many gors right now....  :oops:. The main thing in there that's nice is the ungors... but when I weigh it against my Dark Elf needs, it pales terribly.  Maybe if the box was 40 ungors and 10 Gors I'd take it.  :-P (loving the raiding!)


Ok that was an overlong answer  :icon_redface:.


EDIT

Woah, just checked out the D Elf one. Didn't realise it was 20 corsairs. That is even more perfect! That's the one I'd get if I win.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on March 29, 2010, 04:57:32 AM
go delves...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on March 29, 2010, 11:06:07 AM
The only thing that makes the BEastman battlion worth anything is the bestigor, and only if you accept that they should be almost $50 per 10.

There are some nasty things you can do with them, but god thats alot.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 29, 2010, 04:25:57 PM
Think I'd have to win two battalion boxes to make it worthwhile though eh? Are 10 Bestigors really feasible to use in any way at all?

(except for funky character conversions  :-P)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on April 02, 2010, 01:08:42 AM
Two boxes are almost perfect.  You only need between 14 and 16 since you will be running them mostly as a vehicle for gorebulls and doombulls (which they are totally awesome at - especially for the Gorebull BSB with the strength boosting banner meaning 10 S7 attacks for the front rankers) leaving 4 - 6 for chariot conversions (the current chariot has one kind of bestigor - he makes cool characters and bestigor).

Bestigor certainly fill a role.  They are pretty nasty in their own way.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on April 16, 2010, 09:25:12 PM
Bought a box of the new minotaurs for the bits that I can use with my Ogres, and studied them more than the first time I saw the plastic hastily.

WTF? GW certainly destroyed these models with their painting. They are quite decent models and there is tons of conversion possibilities. The extreme muscle highlights can easily be painted differently, and while excessively muscled, they are far better than what they appear to be.

I am actually beginning to think that Beastmen may be a new army for me.

Bestigor certainly fill a role.  They are pretty nasty in their own way.

They will be even better in 8th... Believe me on this one.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on April 19, 2010, 03:39:13 AM
WTF? GW certainly destroyed these models with their painting. They are quite decent models and there is tons of conversion possibilities. The extreme muscle highlights can easily be painted differently, and while excessively muscled, they are far better than what they appear to be.

That is generally the consensus. Though the price does make one feel a bit cheated when compared to Ironguts.

But they have potential to be great models IMO.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on April 19, 2010, 08:04:44 AM
If I didn't already have 12 potential minotaurs, I'd have maybe considered the new box, but as it is, I'm more likely to just get the doombull or I suppose I could get the box set so that I have the potential to run multiple mino characters. Then the fact that they are so much bigger than the old ones would make sense...

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: jturner on April 20, 2010, 03:00:21 AM
WTF? GW certainly destroyed these models with their painting. They are quite decent models and there is tons of conversion possibilities. The extreme muscle highlights can easily be painted differently, and while excessively muscled, they are far better than what they appear to be.

That is generally the consensus. Though the price does make one feel a bit cheated when compared to Ironguts.

But they have potential to be great models IMO.

They will be even better in 8th edition, believe me...the prices I mean. In comparison to the Ironguts. Well...I mean, if you like equality, say. versus...um, cheaper models? BUT the ogres will have SWEET new packaging. Smaller boxes makes them easier to store in your closet for the years before you actually open them.

Man, this is the longest thread EVER!!!  :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on April 20, 2010, 06:13:50 AM
Close to 100 pages now...
Beastmen related: I paint my first 5 ungor raiders by now and still love the models! Also i got enough of the old metal minotaurs for a good price off ebay to be happy.

Still undecided how to make a jabberslythe and gorgon though.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 20, 2010, 06:21:15 AM
I was thinking, Jabberslythe - chaos Spawn body and wavy arms, a head from something else - maybe a Minotaur? wings from a balrog/dragon or even weird freaky deaky feather ones from a Griffon or Hippogriff, or you could go for stunted ones from the Bretonian Pegasus box (one of the best boxes for making an Captasus there is) hell you could give it 2 sets of wings to really go into the "FUBAR" realm.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on April 20, 2010, 07:10:27 AM
I have a set of metal wings (don't know what it was once, a dragon, dark pegasus or something) and i have thought about the chaos spawn body. Not really happy with that one though. And i am completely undecided on the head. Maybe a conversion of the insect-head from the spawn box?

Another possibilty would be using Belakor, i'd really like to paint that one. Or convert one of the new plastic river trolls...

Time will tell, i have still gotr enough other stuff to build and paint first.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 20, 2010, 07:15:25 AM
use the eagle head from the Ushabti....
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on April 20, 2010, 02:02:28 PM
Hm, might work, a bit small maybe. Will have to look at it. And see where to get a single head...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Sig on April 20, 2010, 02:07:39 PM
Some of the older metal daemon models might be the go. Perhaps a Beast of Nurgle? Even the new Beast of Nurgle has a fugly head with a long nasty tongue.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 21, 2010, 01:09:48 AM
buy a single Ushabti.

my mate recently kitbashed a great Chaos lord, the legs of the titsnake rider, body/head of the eagle ushabti, spear arm of the carnosaur rider and the 2nd carnosaur arm across the belly.

It's an awesome tzeentch looking character.

His "Dragon" is a Carnosaur with Deathclaw's wings (given by me) they're a little too short but the idea is that it lopes and flying jumps instead of soaring.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Taureus on April 29, 2010, 09:44:47 AM
Found this...

(http://www.thelegends.it/catalog/images/zodiac_taurus_photo_01_dp.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on April 29, 2010, 11:43:54 AM
That one looks prety big, but too much armour to be a ghorgon.

Wohoo, 100 pages auf beastly goodness (and sillyness)!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on April 29, 2010, 01:51:09 PM
100 pages, awesome!

whats the scale?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Taureus on April 29, 2010, 08:20:34 PM
@Moxer: It could be used as a Doombull I suppose.

@Nicholas: I am not sure the scale...It's listed as being 6 inches tall.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: MrDWhitey on April 29, 2010, 08:22:14 PM
That's twice as tall as a bone giant.

It appears to have a pleasing amount of mass.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on April 30, 2010, 06:35:34 AM
It appears to have a pleasing amount of mass.

Anyone else hear Michael Scott from "The Office" screaming: "THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!!!" ?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on April 30, 2010, 08:22:10 PM
That model is made from cheap plastic isn't it?  When you start dropping He-Man figures on the table top, you aren't really trying anymore...

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on April 30, 2010, 08:44:03 PM
That model is made from cheap plastic isn't it?  When you start dropping He-Man figures on the table top, you aren't really trying anymore...

Ignore my earlier not on the same page comment.

I am actually in the same sentence.

The above quote is just ->  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on May 21, 2010, 12:41:36 AM
So what do the 8th ed proposed changes do to the Beastmen army. Specically around how expensive Gors and Ungors are - do you think people are going to be taking any blocks of these?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 21, 2010, 01:54:41 AM
Without a doubt.  Think of it this way:

Ungor in the horde rule, plus their high likelihood of hatred would get 4 ranks fighting.  Likewise, gor with another rank fighting and AHW would end up with 24 rerollable attacks.  All of our fear causers will be immune to panic, which will be huge.  Miotaur will get to attack with a full second rank for a total of 3 minotaur, with 24 S5 attacks.  30 after the frenzy.  The lack of wards will be corrected by the plethora of great AS potential.  SInce oyu only get one save, it will be a non-issue for wards.

It will be awesome!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Taureus on May 21, 2010, 05:10:18 AM
What size unit of Gor, because I cannot see where you got 24 attacks...That's way too low for a Horde unit, and I can't figure out how many wide you would be if not a Horde...

And there's rumoured to be 50-85 magic items in the BRB, so I am sure you can find a few ward save in those. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on May 21, 2010, 10:17:26 AM
Rumours are that the second rank will always only strike with one attack, no matter how many they have.

I guess philly thought of 6-wide Gor with AHW in two ranks 6x2x2=24 attacks. But even if it's only 18 attacks, the potential hatred will help.
I think beasts will become better if the rumours are true. Ungor might become good in big Horde blocks, Gor will be better in small units of 10-15 i think. Fear=immune to panic would be huge! Minotaurs without a mino character would be less of a liability and units of two Razorgor will rock if immune to panic.

We will see...
I still have not played a single game with my beasts, but i am coming close to 2000 points of painted beasts.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 21, 2010, 11:59:08 PM
I was assuming full attacks for the second rank.  I have seen it both ways, but am okay with either.

Hatred will still be useful.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Taureus on May 22, 2010, 02:46:53 AM
It's supposedly only monstrous infantry that get full attacks in the second rank. But yeah, Hatred is nice.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 22, 2010, 03:58:42 AM
You know what's sad? This single thread is so much more enthusiastic and helpful than the entirety of the Herdstone forums.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 22, 2010, 12:10:32 PM
I know, generally speaking that is true!

I still go there for some specific advice, but  Idon't find it all that useful in many cases.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on May 22, 2010, 04:19:44 PM
People have seen demos in GW stores, and most are confirming the rumours over at Warseer.

Now max out with minos with two handweapons and lots of 10 wide infantery of Ungors and two weapon Gors.

You will rock! (I know my Ogres will)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on May 22, 2010, 05:30:28 PM
A happy tidbit for ye steenkin' furries from a Warseer 8th edition rumor thread:

- a great weapon gives CAV +2 S as well (this is good news for everyone who still uses those Empire knights with the hammer)

Looks like you Centigors look a lot better now. And Knights of the White Wolf as well.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Taureus on May 22, 2010, 08:55:25 PM
A happy tidbit for ye steenkin' furries from a Warseer 8th edition rumor thread:

- a great weapon gives CAV +2 S as well (this is good news for everyone who still uses those Empire knights with the hammer)

Looks like you Centigors look a lot better now. And Knights of the White Wolf as well.

Makes that article that GW wrote a little preemptive for them getting S6! :D
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 22, 2010, 09:49:49 PM
LOL thats true!

Now we need to feel bad for calling them silly for printing it 'wrong'!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Taureus on May 23, 2010, 12:40:51 AM
LOL thats true!

Now we need to feel bad for calling them silly for printing it 'wrong'!

Phil

I did for about 10 seconds.

And then realized that they are being retarded in regards to the information leak.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 23, 2010, 01:17:23 AM
Philly is your user name the same on herdstone?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 23, 2010, 10:37:45 AM
Yeah, same on Warseer too.  I think.  I have only posted a couple times on Warseer if I recall.

On the Herdstone I have chipped in to some conversations, but there are only about 5 people on there who are honestly looking for discussion.  The rest are either children or pure powergamers (powergaming Beastmen players? Who would have thought?).

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 23, 2010, 02:36:40 PM
I try to contribute, but there's so much inanity, even from some of the mods.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 24, 2010, 01:08:27 AM
One of the mods has posted here, KAranerak (or something - beastmen players all sound the same to me).  He is a good guy and makes alot of sense.  He is one of the ones I like.

But we really started this thread because we didn't like the HErdstone much.  And now the best source of info for Beasts is on the Empire board!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on May 24, 2010, 03:10:32 AM
aha go figure...

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on May 24, 2010, 11:17:39 AM
But we really started this thread because we didn't like the HErdstone much.  And now the best source of info for Beasts is on the Empire board!

Phil
I feel quite similar about the underempire.net. I much prefer talking Skaven here. Hell, I pretty much prefer talking all tabletop related stuff here. I only visit warseer for the rumor forums.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 24, 2010, 11:26:06 AM
Quite the little site AND community we have going here eh?

:D

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on May 24, 2010, 12:52:36 PM
hugs and kisses all around  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on May 24, 2010, 08:05:32 PM
Yaiks !  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on May 24, 2010, 08:07:09 PM
And finally he realizes the dire consequences of inviting all those people to his home...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on May 24, 2010, 08:13:06 PM
And finally he realizes the dire consequences of inviting all those people to his home...

In extreme cases, there's always my trusty shotgun and salt loaded cartridges....  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on May 24, 2010, 08:15:40 PM
Shotgun... right, I had almost forgotten you were into shooting. Can we get real drunk and shoot old minis off garden walls?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on May 24, 2010, 08:17:32 PM
Shotgun... right, I had almost forgotten you were into shooting. Can we get real drunk and shoot old minis off garden walls?

With my sons' plastic dart gun, sure.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on May 24, 2010, 08:22:53 PM
 :dry:
Oh well...

Can I at least borrow the shotgun when Fandir gets uppity?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on May 24, 2010, 08:24:51 PM
Of course.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: t12161991 on May 24, 2010, 10:22:54 PM
Just make sure you aim low.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on May 25, 2010, 12:28:21 PM
:dry:
Oh well...

Can I at least borrow the shotgun when Fandir gets uppity?

Damn I guess  i have to browse every single thread to survive this bash.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on May 25, 2010, 03:57:12 PM
:dry:
Oh well...

Can I at least borrow the shotgun when Fandir gets uppity?

Damn I guess  i have to browse every single thread to survive this bash.

I dunno I'm pretty sure this was based on something I said but it's gone right over my head...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Raulmichile on May 27, 2010, 03:45:54 PM
But we really started this thread because we didn't like the HErdstone much.  And now the best source of info for Beasts is on the Empire board!

Phil
I feel quite similar about the underempire.net. I much prefer talking Skaven here. Hell, I pretty much prefer talking all tabletop related stuff here. I only visit warseer for the rumor forums.


One more example of how inclusive our glorious Empire is    :happy:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 02, 2010, 10:56:52 AM
PhillyT...

Since you have both armies, what is the difference between Ogres and Beastmen besides the flying stuff?

With 8th Ogres will have ranked blocks, and heavy attacks from the second row (up to 3), which takes away the power of regular ranked blocks, I do not see ranked as a difference anymore. At least not as a potential Ogre killer (since rank bonus stats won't matter when Ogres mow down models with all their attacks, including impact and stomp).

I love my Ogres and they will be potentially stronger, but each time I take a look at the beastmen I already have, I just go yum-yum. I do not want a similar army, and I can ambush with Gorgers, but the models are looking so hawt I am beginning to fail in staying away from such nastiness.

Maybe I should just read the crappy fluff again?  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 02, 2010, 01:11:07 PM
I don't play ogres, so it is only a theoretical comparison:

- Completely different magic
- Beasts can be faster (Chariots, Razorgors, fliers, hounds. We will have to see how big the difference will be in 8th though)
- Mobility. At least now beast are more mobile (again fliers, chariots, skirmishers, ambush). If in 8th RnF can get free reforms from a musician or something this is mitigated though.
- Frenzy. You can play a frenzy-heavy army, opening up a different style to play.

I'd wait for 8th and see what the new rules really bring before buying  a completely new army. Oh, and don't reread the fluff. Just pretend it does not exist.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 02, 2010, 04:22:26 PM
Minotaurs > Ogres.

Ungors > Gnoblars.

Beastmen Nasty Monsters > Slave Giant.

Beastmen > All.


Ogres WILL be better in 8th, because the need to play them MSU will be gone, and they will be essentially how they should have been (even though I have been dissapointed with their existence since they came out).

I was really angry with the "Mongolian" fluff for them, since it is not at all even close to a Mongolian style army.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 02, 2010, 09:56:01 PM
You can't compare 2 point gnoblars to those expensive Ungors...

And minos are better than Ogres but also more expensive.

I rank them equal under 8th.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 04, 2010, 03:53:59 PM
Well, I certainly wouldn't rate the two armies equal, but it isn't a fair comparison.  The Ogres need a new book, even under 8th, though they have gotten alot better.  The comparison I supose, though I don't see much similarity betwee nthe armies anymore (not that it was ever huge).

Ogres:

Greater Potential for 40mm models.

Ogres are not hamstrung by poor pursuit distances (as Minotaur are)

Strong Rare choice in the Maneaters who will be even better now that they can thrash in a unit

Good magic, though it will be MUCH different this edition I think

Decent character choices

Beastmen:

Far more versitile

Core chartiots, which Ogres cannot compete with

Minotaurs will gove even maneaters a total headache since thye will always get to drop their attacks first with an I3

Better character selection - the Doombull is better than the tyrant, the gorbull is equal to the bruiser though lacking in LD (makes up for it with other stats)

Much better blocks - a unit of gor will give a unit of ogre bulls fits.  The gor will generally reroll their hatred tests, go first, and have a minimum of 18 S3 attacks coming in with a unit fully ranked and stubborn because of it.  On average you will lose 1 or 2 ogres before they even get to attack back.  Horde ungor units will get 4 ranks of hatred S3 attacks without costing too much.

Decent rare choices though none woo me into using them

Missle troops that can actually fire

Closing:

So really, the two are very different.  Ogres will run similar to how they run now.  Nothing has changed enough to make the army comp change.  they will be much better in combat, but until a new book comes out, it isn't worth comparing.  If you like the ogre play style, keep with that.  I like both armies, but they operate differently.  I wouldn't suggest using Beastmen unless you REALLY like to paint them.  I do, but that doesn't mean it is for everyone.

Phil

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 07, 2010, 01:19:44 AM
I can't wait to see how Empire and Dwarfs play. I think they're going to be real winners under 8th. Even Dark Elves look like they're just going to get stronger with cheap Core and Special.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 07, 2010, 01:39:57 AM
So here is a list that I am planning on taking to a local Tourney. At first glance it might seem a little silly, but I am unfortunate to play against a lot of top tier lists, and most of them use a lot of cav (read Chaos Knights) and the ones that don't play LM, Daemons, and Elves of both the H and D variety. This list is made to grind grind grind.

Doombull, axes of khorgor, trollhide, uncanny reflexes

Gorebull, heavy armor, shield, bsb, The Beast Banner, Gnarled Hide, Gouge-Tusks, Many-limbed fiend.

Bray Shaman level 2, staff of darkoth (Shadow)

Bray shaman level 2, Hagtree Fetish, Dispel Scroll (Death)

Tuskgor Chariot

Tuskgor Chariot

Tuskgor Chariot

Minotaurs (4) great weapons

Minotaurs (4) Additional Hand Weapons

Jabberslythe

Ghorgon

2250 points.

The bsb goes with the ahw minos, and the general usually goes with the others.

They are also designed to be survivable on their own if need be.

I have defended against Demon magic and against a Slaan and two engines, and have not suffered greatly. The trick is knowing which spells to dispel and which to let through.

Against anything with less than 7 dispel dice I should be able to get stuff through in my own turn. The mages are a pair of magic missile machines that draw a lot of attention away from my big nasties, and every spell and shooting attack they eat means a better chance of my big guys rampaging through unchecked.

Jabber handles Fast Cav and flankers, while Ghorgon usually either clogs up the middle or takes a flank himself.


It's pretty much point and click. There are no targets that can be ignored in this list, and, while a good Empire player would be able to handle them easily, at my local store the only Empire player is me!  :biggriin:

I mostly have to face elves, lizards, WoC and DoC, with a pair of O&G players for good measure.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on June 07, 2010, 02:02:51 AM
IMO, 8th has just made Dark Elves the new powerhouse. Not that they weren't already up there to start with.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 07, 2010, 03:55:18 AM
yea Cheap Core, Cheap rare. If the game size is to go to 3500pts or so I'll get 750 in Rare of which I'll only need which would get me 2 hydras and 4 bolt throwers!!

Plus 750 for lords and 750 for characters will be great - although if they incl. assassins in the hero's amount it may be a bit of a push.

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on June 07, 2010, 08:35:41 AM
although if they incl. assassins in the hero's amount it may be a bit of a push.

Hopefully that is one thing they will do - will curb it somewhat.

I see Ogres getting a minor update in 8th, as Bulls became not terrible, just bad.

I also think the new magic item listing will help them somewhat too.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 09, 2010, 11:13:21 AM
There is an even split as to whether it will be 25% lord 25% heroes or just a flat 25% character alotment.

Again, DE will be diminished under the new rules.  Much of what made them powerful were their core fast cavalry.  That fast cavalry is now tied to larger, 200+ point untis which makes it harder to deploy them.  Add the reduced usefulness of harpies, dragons and hydras being castrated, and allowing everyone to field decent magic with only a couple wizards and you have them back with everyone else.

Beastmen will be perhaps the biggest winners in this shift to 8th.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 10, 2010, 01:05:20 AM
I'm not sure about that assessment Philly.

Depending on how the books are FAQed. I'm hearing magic is 2d6 PD each magic phase with the highest d6 = opponents DD.

Combined with the other rumour that you add your level to your die roll so a lv1 castin a 4+ spell only needs a 3 means Dark elves will be able to get ridiculous amounts of "extra" power dice thanks to power of darkness spell, more so then any other army which could realistically make a massive shift to delves in the magic phase.

You can know make an absolute monster unit with your spearmen. 30 spearmen with fc/warbanner is only 225pts.  you get to fight in 3 ranks as spears + master with ASF banner (so at ASF + I5 they'll get re-roll to hit every round of combat) throw in Killing Blow buff from the couldron) and if they have more ranks they'll be stubborn 9... thats not bad. Even 50 spearmen with FC/WB is 345pts + master in my usual set up 177 plus couldron 225. Still significantly cheaper then current "death stars" plus naturally you'd have an assassin in the unit  :engel:

cheap specials as well. You get 2 Hydras and 4 bolt throwers (you rare cap apparently) for 750pts exactly which is nasty enough to face.

I'm sure beasts will get a big buff, some items that made no sense in 7th all of a sudden do like the 10pt +1 initiative item etc. I don't know the book well enough to really comment but I think Dwarfs will be getting a nice buff and so will empire.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 10, 2010, 02:04:42 AM
So here is a list that I am planning on taking to a local Tourney. At first glance it might seem a little silly, but I am unfortunate to play against a lot of top tier lists, and most of them use a lot of cav (read Chaos Knights) and the ones that don't play LM, Daemons, and Elves of both the H and D variety. This list is made to grind grind grind.

Doombull, axes of khorgor, trollhide, uncanny reflexes

Gorebull, heavy armor, shield, bsb, The Beast Banner, Gnarled Hide, Gouge-Tusks, Many-limbed fiend.

Bray Shaman level 2, staff of darkoth (Shadow)

Bray shaman level 2, Hagtree Fetish, Dispel Scroll (Death)

Tuskgor Chariot

Tuskgor Chariot

Tuskgor Chariot

Minotaurs (4) great weapons

Minotaurs (4) Additional Hand Weapons

Jabberslythe

Ghorgon

2250 points.

After three test games (two minor losses and a draw) I have decided to remove the Ghorgon and replace him with harpies and ungor raiders. I had somewhat planned this anyway, but I wanted to test the Ghorgon. The only game the Ghorgon made his points back was against Slaanesh daemons (a game that ended with me having a single unit of minotaurs and him having only his greater daemon left, a minor loss for me). The Jabber is AWESOME. He won't kill units on his own (believe me, I tried. Even rear charged grail knights stood up to him) but he makes his points back in every game. In fact, against Brettonians he took care of 5 pegasus knights (admittedly with Chariot help) killed some guys with his insanity bubble, and tongued a man-at-arms, then, when a paladin dealt the final two wounds to him, the bile blood hits killed the paladin! Fun times! I faced Daemons, Lizardmen with a slaan and 2 EotG's, and Brettonians. I would have beaten the LM player except I rolled a 1 on a pursuit after I mauled a block of 20 saurus warriors and the 4 surviving dino dudes ran away (LM player was PISSED that I mauled his block so easy :engel: ) This allowed him to charge with his steg and deal 7! impact hits, which he would do two more times with the same steg! Jerk.

The bret player combined a couple of lances into my general's unit, and rolled ridiculous, killing all four of my supporting minotaurs and then running down my fleeing general. I later pummeled his general and all but his knights errant and BSB. Ghorgon took 5 wounds from archers, then whiffed both times when I tried to eat the paladin that the jabber later bled all over. Ghorgon's terror was enough to make the Tree-bucket crew flee off the board though. Chariots were pros. Took down a whole unit of men-at-arms with a single chariot charge (in the front!), and distracted his Tree-bucket the one turn it was able to fire.

Overall I enjoyed this list, and it scares the crap out of folks when you plop down only 17 models. I found myself time and again wishing I had raiders and harpies, so I will add them to this list in place of the Ghorgon, and take it to the tournament this weekend. I do not see myself missing the Ghorgon. He's fun, but he is about 50 points too expensive in this edition.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 10, 2010, 08:39:13 AM
Comp Scores for the Local Tournament:
15 pts are possible:

Number of pts spent on characters?
1-675 (3 pts)
676-900 (2 pts)
901-1124 (1 pts)
1125+ (0 pts)

How many points are spent on troops?
900+ (3 pts)
675-899 (2 pts)
450-674 (1 pts)
1-449 (0 pts)

Does the list contain two or more terror causers?
yes (0 pts), no (3 pts)

How many war machines/chariors?
0-1 (3 pts)
2-3 (2 pts)
4-6 (0 pts)

More than 10 power dice?
yes (0 pts), no (3 pts)

Comp Scores are added to the Battle points to determine final score, and they are also used to determine pairings in the first round. "Cheezy" armies paired against each other. Out of 15 points my list scores 10 for Comp. This is mostly because I only have 372 points of core troops. I trimmed down my characters to fit in more stuff, and now that i have under 900 points of characters I get more points for that. The previous list I showed would have netted me only 6 points for Comp.

Moving on from there, here is my finalized list.

335 - Doombull (general) Axes of Khorgor, Trollhide, Uncanny Senses

245 - Gorebull (battle standard bearer) great weapon, shield, Blackened Plate (specifically for the Khorne Daemon player who likes the +1str flaming swords), Gouge-Tusks, Gnarled Hide

160 - Bray-Shaman (level 2) Shard of the Herdstone

155 - Bray-Shaman (level 2) Hagtree Fetish, Dispel Scroll

80 - Tuskgor Chariot

80 - Tuskgor Chariot

80 - Tuskgor Chariot

33 - Ungor Raiders (5) musician

33 - Ungor Raiders (5) musician

33 - Ungor Raiders (5) musician

33 - Ungor Raiders (5) musician

55 - Harpies (5)

55 - Harpies (5)

275 - Jabberslythe

55 - Chaos Spawn

55 - Chaos Spawn

2250 - Total


I'm pretty much talking to myself I've noticed  :biggriin: , but it has helped to bounce these ideas around. I really want the Beastmen to make a good showing at this tournament. Hopefully I'll finally remember the impact hits for my minos that I forget EVERY TIME.

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Gneisenau on June 10, 2010, 08:48:49 AM
No worries, I read your posts with great interest. I just don't have anything to contribute. :icon_wink:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 10, 2010, 08:55:03 AM
 :happy:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 10, 2010, 08:56:03 AM
No worries, I read your posts with great interest. I just don't have anything to contribute. :icon_wink:

what he said.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 10, 2010, 10:41:46 AM
Bies:  Those charge spells are dependant upon getting the spell off.  Even more than before, you counter those power dice spells and they won't be able to take advantage of them.  They are then forced to use the handful of dice remaining to get those spells off.  As for the big spearman blocks, once a master is added and the banner, you are looking at almost 400 points.  FOr a unit full of S3 attacks.  You could mill your way through that with surprising speed using minotaur, gor, or centigor.  There is no way DE are going to get better under this edition.  I think you are going to be shocked at how some armies previously viewed as bad are going to move up.

Take a look at the Orc and goblin book and tell me where they are not about to leap crazily towards the front under the new edition.  cheap bolt throwers, catapults which no longer need to guess.  Goblin doom divers now capable of devastating units with no guessing and the ability to move back towards units the miss.  Block orcs with a good number of attacks and hordes of night goblins with nets.  The night goblin spear units will do terrible damage to that DE spearman block.  Once the nets hit, those DE are only S2.  With the rediculous cost of goblin heroes, every goblin unit will feature one!

Cannonofdoom:  FIght the good fight and know that beasts will be ever better shortly!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 10, 2010, 10:51:47 AM
Philly,

I'm not looking through rose tinted glasses here. I've already seen how big a boost O&G will be getting, frankly Dwarfs as well will be getting a boost imo.

I'm still staying delves will beat beastmen. Sorry but I've got no issues taking out minotaurs now and the things I take your mino's out with aren't being changed, infact they're becoming better (repeater crossbowmen & Ninja assassins).

Your chariots will become very nasty correct, I don't mean to be saying beastmen won't be getting a boost or even reaching top tier I just thinking Delves are still going to be nasty due to our highly effective and incredibly cheap special options.

I'm just not seeing so far many penalties to Delves with the rumours I'm hearing (that may be a better way of putting it, while Beastmen and O&G are getting "buffs" with the new edition, Daemons and vamps appear like they're going to get penalized slightly. Delves don't appear to be shifting in a major way either direction).

Our characters are hardly expensive compared to the other 2 top tier armies atm either (daemons/vamps)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Gneisenau on June 10, 2010, 10:59:17 AM
And let's not forget that the DE magic items still vary between "wtf are they serious?" (bad items) and "wtf are they serious?" (good items).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 10, 2010, 11:08:30 AM
Well, every Army has that. Look at beastmen as an excellent example. There's the completely useless 100 point Primeval Club. Why would you ever take it?

Then there's the 15 point Gnarled Hide. Why would you ever NOT take it?

Pelt of the Shadowgave is also a GOOD item.

Banner of Outrage? Useless.

The Beast Banner? Awesome.

Empire Banner of Duty? Banner of the Daemonslayer? Speculum at the other end.

There's stuff like that in every book. The only magic item list I can honestly say off the top of my head doesn't have any truly useless items is O&G.

... Maybe the Big Red Raggedy Banner...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Gneisenau on June 10, 2010, 11:23:00 AM
True. It's just that I think the DE book really takes the cake here, thanks to a certain pendant.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on June 10, 2010, 11:32:55 AM
...and some Ring or other.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 10, 2010, 01:52:51 PM
the ring affects me too and there are many armies that can get through the rings defence and many armies where it really doesn't matter.

Although 25pts is a laugh.

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 10, 2010, 05:24:14 PM
DE are going to suffer much more than they are going to gain.  A few things that will fundamentally alter the reasons why they are so good:

1.  The death of dark rider swarms.  Dark riders will now run in groups of 10+ rather than 5.  This will make them far juicier to kill and much tougher to sacrifice.
2.  The castration of the hydra.  No terror bubble, no immunity to difficult terrain, once per game breath weapon, and an I2 which lets people murder those handlers before the thing gets to attack.  Also no removing ranks on flank charges.  The hydra was a huge factor in the success of the army in many cases.  It is now only a so-so pick over the RBT's.
3.  The uselessness of harpies.  Can be march blocked, are expensive, don't have the attacks to really do much.
4. Assassins becoming easy points.  With 2 wounds and a T2, they are not a problem anymore.  Since units fill in, they can freely chop away at a front rank, but they won't last more than 2 rounds against almost anything.  Even night goblin spearmen will kill one in three rounds of combat without much effort.  The assasin with his ASF and high I will mean little when he can't defend his meager profile and ward save by killing foes first.
5. Shades losing their skirmishing abiltiy (well the changes to skirmish not their role per se).  They were a strong vehicle for assasins and worked very well.  Now they are an expensive unit which makes for a tough sell when compared to two rank crossbowmen.

Maybe it is the fact that I am used to playing against the kind of army that will now see use with the DE.  SPear blocks and 40+ crossbows on the board.  It can be nasty, but the changes will force the DE to return to the rest of the pack.  Their book was broken in comparision to the majority of the other armies in the game.  VC will probably suffer the most this time (since they will no longer be able to spam their raising spell) but DE won't be that far behind with the restrictions to spell choice.  Remember, no wizard can have a spell another wizard has other than the first level spell.

Beastmen on the other hand will get to take full advantage of the immunity to panic when causing fear, two rank minotaur units for crazy levels of attacks, and hordes of units which will have hatred almost every round of combat supported by heaps of chariots.  Not saying they will be superior to DE, but they will most certainly be their equal.  If I take 2 30 gor units, 2 30 ungor units, and a pile of chariots, good luck shooting enough models to make it difficult for them to mob the army.  Add the piles of ambushers and you have a very nice little list at 3000 points.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 11, 2010, 01:07:33 AM
Philly,

I haven't seen skirmish rumors but this was my list:

Lord on Dragon 575pts all told
Couldron of Blood - BSB (no character upgrades)
Lv1 with 2xDS

15 spearmen - FC
2x10 bowmen
2x5 shades (1 ninja assassin in each)
14 black guard -fc, ASF, roh (1 razor assassin)
2xHydras

with the bump to 3000 I can get 4 bolt throwers and buff the spearmen to 30 (or add CoK, more characters etc). the majority of the list in my eyes will still be very strong.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on June 11, 2010, 01:40:38 AM
1.  The death of dark rider swarms.  Dark riders will now run in groups of 10+ rather than 5.  This will make them far juicier to kill and much tougher to sacrifice.
Hardly. The Repeater crossbow on them, and ability to kill missile units and war machines (and it sounds like there will be a lot more of those this next edition) keeps them useful. Not as useful, but still a GREAT core unit.

2.  The castration of the hydra.  No terror bubble, no immunity to difficult terrain, once per game breath weapon, and an I2 which lets people murder those handlers before the thing gets to attack.  Also no removing ranks on flank charges.  The hydra was a huge factor in the success of the army in many cases.  It is now only a so-so pick over the RBT's.

Don't disagree here. But it is still one of the best big nasty compared to other armies big nasties.

I2 will hurt it though, but thats fair enough considering it was undercosted.

3.  The uselessness of harpies.  Can be march blocked, are expensive, don't have the attacks to really do much.

Fliers can be march blocked? I had no idea. That screws up a LOT of things then, across multiple armies. Makes no sense to me either, but ok.

4. Assassins becoming easy points.  With 2 wounds and a T2, they are not a problem anymore.  Since units fill in, they can freely chop away at a front rank, but they won't last more than 2 rounds against almost anything.  Even night goblin spearmen will kill one in three rounds of combat without much effort.  The assasin with his ASF and high I will mean little when he can't defend his meager profile and ward save by killing foes first.

Assassins have T2? I did not notice this. Though their high I should surely mean they will kill anything in base to base, though I guess I have no idea what the rules are for attacking characters in the new edition. And generally I think this means that Assassins are therefore good at killing characters, and not at killing units, which is how they are supposed to be used.

5. Shades losing their skirmishing abiltiy (well the changes to skirmish not their role per se).  They were a strong vehicle for assasins and worked very well.  Now they are an expensive unit which makes for a tough sell when compared to two rank crossbowmen.

Indeed. But I never saw that many of these anyway. Most Dark Elf armies I played took a minimum unit of shades, because they were effective, but not more so than other components of the list. I don't see this changing.

Beastmen on the other hand will get to take full advantage of the immunity to panic when causing fear, two rank minotaur units for crazy levels of attacks, and hordes of units which will have hatred almost every round of combat supported by heaps of chariots.  Not saying they will be superior to DE, but they will most certainly be their equal.  If I take 2 30 gor units, 2 30 ungor units, and a pile of chariots, good luck shooting enough models to make it difficult for them to mob the army.  Add the piles of ambushers and you have a very nice little list at 3000 points.

They really will not be their equal. The DE have an ability to take hordes of units which are better equipped and have better stats than Ungor (and arguably Gor), and also have hatred and could be supported by heaps of chariots. Plus they have all their shooting, and shooting, and then shooting. A requirement for 25% Core means I generally think this will be 2 units of dark riders, 1 big unit of spearmen, and the rest in repeater crossbowmen. If there is any army that can shoot the shit out of the enemy, that would be Dark Elves. And they will.

Like you said though, Minotaurs are getting a huge boost, and that will still be what the Beastmen army relies on for effectiveness.

...

Overall, the things you mention do change how Dark Elves work, and does bring them back towards how they are supposed to work, however that still doesn't mean they aren't effective, and aren't going to be one of, if not the most effective army in 8th edition.

They have gained a HUGE boost in shooting potential, for an already VERY shooty army. 2 ranks is huge for them.

They have gained even more incentive to take their undercosted core choice of spearmen. Were these guys appropriately costed, I would say this would be balancing.

Their chariots have become more effective, no longer hampered by Special slots, nor by auto destroy S7.

Witch Elves and Executioners have received an attack boost in comparison to the currently favoured Black Guard.

Cold One Knights also benefit from the Cause Fear - Ignore Panic rule, however the requirement for an extra rank hurts them just as much as every other army with elite heavy cavalry.

Ultimately, I see them with a LOT more spearmen, more repeater crossbowmen, and more chariots, as well as most of their other choices scattered through.
They benefit more than any other army by having their undercosted core choice, which for some reason was not favoured, coming to the fore.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 11, 2010, 03:03:09 AM
Assassins are T3.

and unless overkill/challenges are changing you'd just challenge with the guy in the hopes your opponent is silly enough to accept.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 11, 2010, 11:28:03 AM
Units of 5 darkriders will be nearly useless.  Their role was light shooting and flank threats.  They can still shoot, but they serve no real purpose as a unit threat.  That will be enough to see them reduced in use to groups of 10.  As it stands, many armies ran at least 3 to 4 units of dark riders.  That isn't going to be a good use of points now.  Of course they are still useful, but not in the same fashion.

And at no point did I claim the army would be ineffective.  I am simply saying people who think the army will get a boost under 8th haven't really thought it all through.  There are far more powerful units than the DE spearman for similar points.

And yes, Assassins are T3, I made a typo!

Bies:  That DE list you posted is a perfect illustration of my point.  Your magic phase will be horrid, the dragon is no longer a unit muncher, and you have a sinlge unit with which to take and hold an objective.  You are going to need at least three full blocks of spearmen, more magic, and a revaluation of how many hydra nad dragons you run.  The problem with them is that they no longer give you a terror bubble, they cannot remove ranks, and they are all I2 giving whoever you fight a great chance of getting cheap wounds on them.  Add the huge number of points you have in assassins, who smart players will kill with RNF not challenging characters, and you have a flawed 7th edition list trying to do 8th.  You will need to scrap the whole thing and essentially start over.  Only those 10 man xbow units will survive the change unscathed.

But now picture this, that army fighting an O&G horde.  4 blocks of 36 NG, 2 units of 10 wolf riders, 1 unit of 10 boar boyz, 6 bolt throwers, 2 catapults, 3 giants, 4 goblin heroes, 3 goblin shaman, 1 black orc warboss, 3 units of 20 night golbin bowmen, 12 fanatics.  You would struggle alot to actually get that win.  Any strength attack can now wound any toughness on a 6, there is no N on the chart anymore.  The army I just listed would weather long range shooting very well, would have 80 shortbow shots at closer range, will rake units with 6 BT shots (or dragons if they are in the open) and will bomb blocks with catapults as the hordes move forward to take and hold objectives.  The giants will all go before the hydra and dragon, even when charged.  With their yell and bawl, headbutt, or thump with club, they are very likely to win every round.  The yell and bawl and headbutt remove the abiulity for the large model to attack back.  Thump with club will put 2d6 wounds on the model on anything but a 1 or 2.  Those are good odds.

Beastmen can do similar things.  The Cygor has suddenly become far better than we ever thought.  No need to guess means he can just move and drop those boulders.  Chaos hounds are finally worth using too!  Now you can take 20 of them in a unit, and flank charge.  There are few units with M7 cheap enough to do that with.  Centigor in two ranks will have far more attacks than normal knights, since they have 2 attacks on their profile, meaning 24 S5 attacks with a great chance of rerolls from a 12 centigor group.  They are slow with I3, but they can still do serious damage on the flanks with M8.  A unit of 30 gor with AHW is 275 points and capable of dealing good damage with rerolls.  But their greatest threat comes when combined with hordes of chariots, espescially razorgors.  Without the need to worry about slotting, you will see many more razorgor chariots, which are immune to panic.

 This all ignores ambushing, which will become far more prevelant.  With objectives, those of us who have played 40k enough know that the ability to models deploy into an opponents deployment zone is huge.  With another 750 points, I will use almost all of that for ambushers. 2 deployed blocks of 30 gor, plus 4 blocks 10 gor, combined with 4 units of 15 ungor spearmen, means 5 ambushers within a small number of points.  Then there will be 2 units of minotaur, 2 giants, 6 chariots, 1 razorgor chariots, 1 beastlord, 1 gorbull BSB, and 3 shaman.  I am not too worried about a large amount of shooting.  I will soak it and hammer those softer things with chariots or the enemy will need to ignore all those blocks while ambushers arrive along their line's flanks or rear.

Beastmen will do amazing if you prepare to play the many scenarios not named Pitched Battle.  Even in a pitched battle, we are about to see a big boost.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 13, 2010, 08:20:03 AM
Okay, tournament update. Played the first three games today, last two games tomorrow. My record right now is 2-1. I won my first game against the reigning  champion of our LGS. He's a super tough High Elf player. for some reason, he decided to field a lord on a star dragon for this tournament, and then inexplicably forgot how to use it effectively. I think he was tired.

Anyway, I crushed two units of spear elves with minotaurs (though my minos with AHW and the BSB flubbed horribly on their attacks and actually LOST combat on the turn they charged) and my jabber flew around mostly making empty threatening gestures. He did account for a lion chariot though, which took three wounds from his aura of madness over two turns (the other wound was by a spawn). In the end he killed my minos (though not my characters), all of my harpies, spawns, all my chariots, and got my jabber down to one wound. Both of my shamans effectively killed temselves with miscasts. He had only half a unit of shadow warriors and his dragon (plus 2 wounds on his general on top) A victory for me!  :happy:

As a reward for my tactical prowess I was then slotted to fight Khorne daemons. The guy's list was Bloodthirster, 3 heralds, one with the -3 to cast banner, two units of hounds, and 3 units of bloodletters. I put two wounds on the thirster, and then he wrecked face on my entire army. In the end I killed one letter unit, one herald, half of another herald, dropped another unit of letters down to 4 models, and killed both hound units. He was very upset at my blackened plate, because all his heralds had the +1S flaming gift, but the thirster took him out with his 2d6+2 attacks. Best part of the game was when my jabber took a charge from a diminished unit of letters with herald, bled all over the herald, killing it, then was missed by the now non-hating bloodletters, and did enough wounds back to actually win combat! Then he died in the next turn. But still. In the end I had both shamans, all my raiders, and my harpies left. Loss for me!  :dry: Daemons are broke. The guy playing them told me so.  :engel:

My next opponent was another high elf player. He had a more traditional high elf list with three repeater bolt throwers, 2 units of archers, a block of white lions, block of swordmasters, unit of 6 dragon princes, 2 lion chariots, a lvl 2 mage, a bsb in tiranoc chariot, and a lord. I had my herdstone next to a wood that I hid my shamans in, and tried to get harpies up the flank to kill his bolt throwers. It did not work. I killed one of the bolt throwers with magic, and then the other two killed ALL of my harpies, two units of raiders, both my shamans, a spawn, and dropped my jabber to below half on turn 6. I hates them precious. I misjudged a charge distance and allowed dragon princes to hit my gw minos (I put both my characters into the ahw unit and walked it toward his elite blocks), they killed two minos and my return attacks only killed two princes (stupid ones!  :eusa_wall: ) I wrecked everything else he had though. Minos got a flank on his swordmasters, while a chariot hit them in the front and jabber hit them in the rear. His mage was in that unit. They died good. Got his BSB with my minos when he charged my chariot and I fled with it (of course I was not going to stay!) the tuskgors chariot failed to rally and fled off the table, but who cares? My minos were pretty much out of it at that point, being off in a corner by their lonesome, but they did their job well. Got a couple staggered chariot charges into his white lions (lines got crowded), and eventually lost both those chariots, but it set me up for a flank charge by jabber into the white lions with the lord. Turns out, he had his lord set up with the ethereal thing that makes him not able to attack. Nice against Bloodthirster, but I know he was regretting it when he only got a single white lion attack on my jabber because his lord could only sit there (I knew about the lord before I charged, because of the previous chariot attacks). Jabber won and ran down lord and unit, then was lucky enough to see the lion chariot that was now in his rear arc fail his fear test and not be able to charge. Then the jabber flew behind the unwounded chariot, and he rolled an 11! for his madness test, and the jabber licked the last wound off the chariot with his slythey tongue. Fun times! In the end I had both of my mino characters practically unscathed, my entire ahw unit intact, jabber at half points, and some raiders left. he had a single chariot, dragon princes, and 2 bolt throwers left. Another victory for me!  :eusa_clap:  :::cheers:::

All in all I am enjoying this list a lot. I have absolutely no answer whatsoever for big character monsters, but I have faced the only two armies that have them. Tomorrow, two more games. Till then, stay thirsty my friends.
(http://idology.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/most_interesting_man.jpg?w=225&h=273)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 14, 2010, 05:36:04 AM
And now, the moment approximately nobody has been waiting for!  :happy:

Played my last two games today and finished up at the local tournament.

At the end of day one I was in 4th place, ready to make my move and try to catch the Daemon player I had lost to earlier. I had to play a filthy skaven my first game of the day.

Skaven player had three units of slaves, three units of clanrats, two ratling guns, a plague mortar, big block of plague monks with the furnace, two units of censor bearers, an abomination, and a doomwheel. He had a warplock engineer two plague priests, and a BSB with Storm Banner.

I fed his abomination and doomwheel some ungor raiders and harpies, and otherwise avoided and ignored them the entire game. They were on opposite flanks, and I did not want to commit my minos and characters to deal with them. Both of my mino units went straight up the middle, and I smashed the unit of monks completely, but failed to kill the furnace (out of 9 hits by doombull in second round of combat only one die rolled to wound was higher than a 2), failed both of my break checks and fled through enemies. Lame.

In the end all of his weapon teams, both units of censor bearers, all three slave units, his BSB, one of the Plague priests and half the other, the unit of plague monks, and a unit of clan rats were dead. I lost a chariot, a spawn, a couple units of raiders, a unit of harpies, and (the thing that hurt most) my unit of GW minos and my doombull. A frustrating draw.


Final game was against a very seasoned Wood Elf player. He had Treeman Ancient, 3 units of dryads, two units of 3 treekin, 2 units of wild riders, 3 units of archers, two level 2's and a BSB. I don't know if it was the heat (A/C in the store was not working) or the fact I had gotten 6 hours of sleep in two days, but I went complete retard mode. I played his game, lost everything except my jabber, two chariots, a unit of raiders, and my two mino characters. All I killed was a unit of archers, a mage, a unit of wild riders, a unit of dryads, and half his BSB. Not a massacre, but as close as one can get without it. I was disappointed to say the least, but I blame only myself. I still had a chance to do well in the tournament, and I blew it.

In the end my record was 2-2-1. Not terrible, but I was angry at myself for stupid mistakes. Ah well. Live and learn, and then get Luvs.
(http://bp2.blogger.com/_WweSLepsY24/RtGNUazmfII/AAAAAAAAAWY/wAsQpfKSvbs/s320/luvs.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 14, 2010, 06:41:35 AM
Theres always next year! And you would have done it if it wasn't for those meddling hippies!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on June 14, 2010, 07:29:46 AM
As long as you had a good time... 2-2-1 is not a bad record!
 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on June 14, 2010, 07:59:06 AM
Seems like you faced some tough armies there. Even wood elves are a bit trickier now that we have lost most of our skirmish and wood walking ability.

I'd say it was a pretty good result.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 14, 2010, 08:02:48 AM
I faced, without question, every single one of the hardest armies and best players at the tournament, so I will hold my head high at only two losses, but like every player I always dwell on what I COULD have done.  :biggriin: Silly what-if's.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 14, 2010, 08:13:53 AM
hahah I know your EXACT feeling (cause the same happened to me in April). Again congrats on a good tourney played.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 14, 2010, 08:52:37 AM
Take a look at the Orc and goblin book and tell me where they are not about to leap crazily towards the front under the new edition.

I can't but agree, and the O&G players in our group are painting Orcs like crazy.

And I will jump on the Beast wagon because I love the models.  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 14, 2010, 09:04:54 AM
I'm sorry guys but at the end of the day a Goblin is still a goblin and i don't care how many stubborn  5units you bring you're still only ld5.

Yes there will be buffs to make them more viable but there's no way I can ever see them being top tier or even near. also there was a comment about bolt throwers, theres meant to be a cap on 3 special choices- thats 6 spear chukkas ok, they cost nothing 270pts so you can get lots of other things but 6 spear chukkas still isn't that great (at leats in my exp. of both regular O&G players fielding between 6 -8 of the things).

I need to see 8th Come out before I can really comment but I'm struggling to believe there's going to be such a dramatic shift as I'm feeling Philly and Shadow are expecting.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 14, 2010, 09:20:38 AM
I'm sorry guys but at the end of the day a Goblin is still a goblin and i don't care how many stubborn  5units you bring you're still only ld5.

I am not seeing goblins as the main arch here, but they will have a place with all those cheap STR4-6 goblin bosses filling up spaces.

And with some changes to general's leadership etc., they will be much better.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 14, 2010, 09:27:33 AM
I guess I'm just not following 8th ed rumours close enough. I put my deposit down so I get 15% off when it comes out next month.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 14, 2010, 10:02:48 AM
Have you been working out?

Remember, 528 pages...  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Midaski on June 14, 2010, 10:07:51 AM
Have we had any idea of cost of the new BRB yet?

I looked on the GW site for advamced orders, but couldn't see anything.

However if Bies has paid a deposit, I assume he would have been told the price? :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 14, 2010, 11:41:49 AM
There has been a picture of the spanish BRB, it costs 60 Euros, which has been confirmed by other sources. So 60 Euros in -well, Europe. There have been prices in other currenceys, but i can't quite remember. 45 British pounds i think and 80$ US.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 14, 2010, 11:53:17 AM
60 euros is about $60 nowadays. Not that I wish for a continued depletion of the European economy or anything...

That is alot for a rule book, but I will be buying it!

Bies:  My units of 36 night goblins have never broken while fighting DE spearmen.  The only block that managed to give them a hard time was black guard and they still won.  Even mathhammer proves the point.  11 DE spearmen attack.  With hatred they hit with 8 or 9.  LEts give them the 9.  At S2, after the netting, they get 3 wounds.  Lets say all of the wounds stick.  The night goblins get 13 attacks back IF they chose not to add a dirt cheap hero.  Of those 13 attacks, lets say 7 hit and 3 wound.  That ends up being 2 wounds after saves.  With the outnumber, the two tie.  NExt round hatred falls off and the DE will start losing.  All of this assumes the goblin spear chukkas hadn't already depleted the unit at all.  SUre the DE player could have depleted the NG unit, but with giants and far more blocks o nthe board the DE probably wouldn't have been able to do that.  As for that LD5, you put a goblin hero in each for 29 points after gear and it is aLD7.  And the only thing I have ever had a difficult time with is the terror tests from large models.  No more terror bubble means not as much of a worry.

You really do need to look at how the game is being turned on its head.  The DE list you posted will not be usable in many cases because it lack the blocks to take objectives.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 14, 2010, 12:16:10 PM
Philly I wasn't speaking in relation to my delves or even my list just in general, if anything I was talking about my Empire army.

Also Gians = Fail i'm yet to ever face a giant thats caused me any concern and with razor assassins (which aren't changing in the current ed as I understand it) they're still going to go down fast.

I'm sure come next month we'll be able to have some proper discussions!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on June 14, 2010, 12:40:29 PM
orcs anyone? with choppas? Those will be nasty as nasty can get with all the boost infantry gets. Waaaagh magic with cheapo goblins shamans might also become quite interesting.

Very interesting if all magic lores get an 8th edition update.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 14, 2010, 03:34:32 PM
With the outnumber, the two tie.

No outnumber in 8th.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 15, 2010, 12:36:55 AM
Shadowlord:  I was speaking about my sucesses in 7th edition.  The NG will be better in 8th.  They need no outnumber!

As for giants, I was referring to the 8th edition.  I am fine letting people shoot the giants, thats sort of their job.  But now that they are faster than most other large monsters, and get those free d6 S6 hits after other attacks, they will be much more useful.  2/3rds of the time the enemy monster won't even get to fight back since it will be headbutts and yell and bawls.  They suffer still from not being able to take alot of damage with only a T5 to protect them, but at 205 points, they have always been useful.  Under 8th, with all of the awesome changes that seem to play right into O&G along with EMpire players styles, the list will be far better and much more competitive.

And Bies, I think you will find those assasins getting shelved pretty fast.  Even night goblin spearmen have an awesome chance of killing them.  I would refuse the challenge everytime then stab them to death.  Their T3 with no AS is just too easy now that they cannot remove all those threats before hand.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on June 15, 2010, 04:57:00 AM
Why would he reveal the Assassin to a unit of Night Goblins?

Too many variables.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 15, 2010, 07:45:29 AM
But now that they are faster than most other large monsters, and get those free d6 S6 hits after other attacks, they will be much more useful.

In short, Giants will become much better with their impact and stomp hits (free 2d6 extra damage) so I will be fielding my slavies more often.  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 15, 2010, 07:51:25 AM
yea but they'll still go down just as fast...thats my issue sure various things are getting nice bonuses and upgrades but they're not becoming any more survivable (except for chariots).

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 15, 2010, 07:54:32 AM
True, but regardless they will do more damage in combat and shooting is the same mostly.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 15, 2010, 08:36:00 AM
True, I just have an issue with taking really squishy things even if they can dish a bucket of attacks (it's my main concern with my BG tbh).

TBH I'd like beastmen to get the massive boost as rumoured by Grilly because I'd quite like to collect the army but I'm pretty cynical and cautious about these rules - at least until I see them of course.

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 15, 2010, 08:43:42 AM
I forgot about your gaming style...  :icon_confused:

The new Ungors are some of the finest models I have ever purchased, and for once, just like with Ogres, mediocre freehand on banners will look good when I do them. My painting is quite good, but my freehand sucketh much arse. And with the new horde rules, these nasty bugger will also be quite decent in CC. And who can deny the great backsides of those new minos? Yummy stuff indeed!

Mooooooo...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 15, 2010, 08:52:21 AM
I quite like the Ungor skirmish models myself, they captured the Runty feel compared to the Gor quite well.

It would be Mino's and Razagor that would get me to play Beasts, the wacky creatures is what make them interesting to me (that and Disney image of evil eyes fading into a dark forest).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 15, 2010, 09:03:59 AM
(that and Disney image of evil eyes fading into a dark forest).

These eyes aren't evil, the're insanely crazy globes!

(http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80183&d=1264453511)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 15, 2010, 09:24:13 AM
I hate them so bad.  :icon_sad: Why do they have to be so terrible?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 15, 2010, 09:25:13 AM
I hate them so bad.  :icon_sad: Why do they have to be so terrible?

I think I like them for the reasons you dislike them. Bout time Warhammer got some crazy!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on June 15, 2010, 09:26:26 AM
PPPPUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMBBBBBBBBBAAAAAAAAAA!



so off I go to look at the new rulebook

8th edition sounds like loads of carnage....
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 15, 2010, 09:30:35 AM
If they're going to make them look stupid, put them into an army that has stupid looking critters already (O&G, Ogre Kingdoms). Those ugly things would devastate the dark evil look of my beastmen army, and turn it cartooney. I don't see ever spending $28 on one of those butt ugly pieces of crap. I will buy the new boar boyz and convert them. At least they're plastic. Razorgor model is ugly AND metal. Terrible combination. If it was plastic kit it would be different. There's plenty of bits I don't care for in the plastic spawn kit, so I just don't use them. If razorgor was like that, then I would be happy. As it is, I have not found anyone who can convince me that THAT model belongs in a Beastman army.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 15, 2010, 11:45:09 AM
Bies:  You are right there, everything in the game is getting a drop in durability with the new focus on attacks and offense.  But stubborn on a 10 and I3 mean the giant will have a better chance.  Unfortunately our choas giant is less survivable in a way.  He loses headbutt and gains chomp which heals him, but headbutt is nice simply for its removal of all enemy attacks.

I love the gor much more than the ungor.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 17, 2010, 08:01:07 AM
What do you think about bestigor in 8th edition? Will they become worthwile? Str. 6 from two ranks with potential hatred sounds nice on paper. And stepping up means that they actually get to strike back, even if some died before.
They are still expensive though, i guess more than say 18 becomes too expensive, but at that size they won't negate steadfast.

Has anybody an idea how panic will work? Unit strenght is gone according to the rumours. So, what happens if 3 chaos hounds flee through a unit? If they wouldn't cause panic any more they'd be significantly better!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 17, 2010, 09:02:08 AM
Plus BSB allowing you to re-roll all leadership tests makes it more likely to get PF with them.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 17, 2010, 09:26:27 AM
Is it really all Ld tests? Or all Psychology tests? Rerolling primal fury tests would be cool for the beasts, but that would make this magic horn close to obsolete...

I just read the new lore of beasts on warseer, that one is good for the beasts! First, you get +1 to cast on all beastmen units. The basic spell is +1 strenght and +1 toughness for a unit. Really good for us!

Str4 T5 Gors  -nasty
str6(8) T5 Minotaur - Hit even harder and are thougher to kill
T6 Razorgor, Jabber, giant, T7 Gorgon - Anything but a cannon will have a hard time to kill that!

The lore also contains a spell to give a character +3 Attacks and +3 strength and another one that gives a character +3 toughness. The scaled up versions buff not one but all characters within 12''. Minotaur characters with these buffs can rip through anything, add axes of khorgor and a gorebull or doombull becomes a one-beast army. Hello Herohammer!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 17, 2010, 09:36:03 AM
T6 Razorgor, Jabber, giant, T7 Gorgon - Anything but a cannon will have a hard time to kill that!

As you can wound with any strength these days, even my lowly gnoblars will put a dent in those characters.

S2 vs T7 = wound on 6

That means I killed your 300 pts beast with glass shards and forks...  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 17, 2010, 09:37:23 AM
T6 Razorgor, Jabber, giant, T7 Gorgon - Anything but a cannon will have a hard time to kill that!

As you can wound with any strength these days, even my lowly gnoblars will put a dent in those characters.

S2 vs T7 = wound on 6

That means I killed your 300 pts beast with glass shards and forks...  :icon_lol:

As is only fitting really...spiders today can shoot hairs that blind people and we're the correct size difference from a Giant to Gnoblar!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 17, 2010, 11:03:39 AM
Is it really all Ld tests? Or all Psychology tests? Rerolling primal fury tests would be cool for the beasts, but that would make this magic horn close to obsolete...

The book specifically said all leadership based tests. The horn is still useful because it has a 36" range, which is three times the range of the BSB's re-roll.

And the Axes of Khorgor already make a Doombull a one beast army.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 17, 2010, 11:04:30 AM
They still haven't confimed that wounding anything on a 6 though right?  I would like to see it happen, since my night goblins have been sharpening their spears and staring lustily at the Dark Elf Dragon on Dagonaki's shelf...

As for the BSB's rerolls making the Horn obselete, remember the BSB will only have a 24" bubble of rerolls while the horn has a 72" circle.  That will reach even those ambushers on the other side of the table.

Beast lore sounds VERY good.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 17, 2010, 11:05:24 AM
I've seen the chart. All the N's are gone, and you wound anything on a 6.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on June 17, 2010, 01:41:12 PM
I've seen the chart. All the N's are gone, and you wound anything on a 6.

I've seen it too. Gone.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 17, 2010, 01:52:03 PM
Have you seen these yet?

(http://i49.tinypic.com/30271g4.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on June 17, 2010, 02:29:04 PM
nope....but are there some white magic cards in your bag too?.....please pretty please show me the light.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 17, 2010, 02:31:50 PM
A voice told me that all army books will be getting these as they are updated and released (well except for the two already, Beastmen and Skaven).

In my bag, only darkness grows...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on June 17, 2010, 02:34:44 PM
A voice told me that all army books will be getting these as they are updated and released (well except for the two already, Beastmen and Skaven).

In my bag, only darkness grows...

I ordered the magic card pack for the rule book spells I hope there is a way to get the pack for white magic and magic of loren seperate too....

Perhaps they name it the pansy pack.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 23, 2010, 12:16:13 PM
The lore of the wild magic cards shadowlord has shown above are now up for preorder and will be released on the 24th of July.
They are a limited edition and cost 3 BP.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=&prodId=prod800024a (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=&prodId=prod800024a)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 23, 2010, 01:19:04 PM
I ordered these earlier today.

I also got a hold of the Beastmen LE BSB shown in the book.

A buddy of mine had it and I will show some pics tonight.  :happy:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 23, 2010, 01:34:05 PM
The one from the big army box when beast were released for 6th ed? It's a nice miniature, but really topheavy with that metal banner. Mine is still unpainted though, a minotaur BSB seems to be so much better game-wise.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 23, 2010, 01:40:03 PM
Yeah that's the one and I will fix the top heavy with a top heavy base.

I know the Gorebull is better, but I go with flair before a penis complex.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 23, 2010, 02:20:22 PM
Not sure the gorebull is better at this point.  He blocks two gor in the front rank, and two behind him meaning his attacks are stronger, but there aren't going to be as many.  Also, I am not sure I would rather take frenzy or rerollable Primal Fury checks.  Then there is the 100 point price difference.  I can see an arguement in both cases, but that Beastman BSB is a fantastic model and one I lament no ever having purchased.

Also, this just in:  I am now a fan of chaos hounds!  Ordering two more boxes for a total of 30 using them in two units of 15!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 23, 2010, 04:34:25 PM
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Beastmen/bsb.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 23, 2010, 05:49:40 PM
God what a sexy hand...

Concerning the two BSB choices:  Keep in mind under 8th the gor BSB would get a full look out sir save while the minotaur would get only the 4+

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on June 24, 2010, 01:05:04 AM
Also in general it appears BSB's are even more useful and with the character limits a cheap BSB thats safe will still leave you the points to get a fighty hero or two as well.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 24, 2010, 03:23:46 AM
Lookout Sir! rolls have gone back to only applying to models in units of the same troop type. So Gorebull in a unit of Gors can be sniped out by cannons. Wargor BSB is back in business. Besides, PF is better than Frenzy now. And it's so easy to give that BSB a 4+ ward!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Odominus on June 24, 2010, 03:26:34 AM
Those beast spells look sweet.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 24, 2010, 03:34:50 AM
I want that beast BSB. Give him to me, Shadowlord. You owe me after that operation in Kyrgyzstan when I totally saved you from that group of Chechnyan rebels. You would be Shadow-beheaded-on-video-lord if not for me and that cunning escape plan involving two naked women, a llama, and seven Uzbekistani goat herders.

Okay, maybe none of that is true, but I still wants it. My precious...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on June 24, 2010, 04:45:18 AM
I want that beast BSB. Give him to me, Shadowlord. You owe me after that operation in Kyrgyzstan when I totally saved you from that group of Chechnyan rebels. You would be Shadow-beheaded-on-video-lord if not for me and that cunning escape plan involving two naked women, a llama, and seven Uzbekistani goat herders.

Unfotunately for you, as I said back then, a pack of Marlboro is all you get.

Papa keeps his BSB.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 24, 2010, 04:54:12 AM
Fair enough.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 24, 2010, 07:23:14 AM
Hm, those you are right, the new lokout sir hurts the mino BSB somewhat. I wouldn't put him into gors anyways, but had thought about ungors. Depending on the amount of enemy warmachines it might still be worthwile thought.
He might even run solo, maybe with the flying carpet.

Concerning the lookout sir: Is it still an extra roll? I read somewhere that it turned int a wardsave for the character, which would mean he is not allowed to take another wardsave he might have from a magic item!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 24, 2010, 07:45:14 AM
Lookout Sir is not a ward save. On a 2+ (4+ if not in the unit but within 3 inches) the hit is transferred to a rank and file trooper.

Gorebull BSB in ungors with spears is not good. Losing Primal Fury in favor of frenzy is a bad trade IMO. Plus wargor's ld of 8 is much more respectable, and his re-rolls will help that ungor unit. I am planning a block of 40 unspeargors with wargor BSB with Beast Banner. Might even put them in horde formation. Using lore of beasts for basic spell +1st +1tough buff will make them T4 St5 with tons of attacks and will almost guarantee hatred having the BSB in there.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 25, 2010, 10:34:23 AM
But that wargor BSB will be really squishy and is guaranteed to get at least four return attacks from whatever he is facing. Especially when carrying a magic banner. T5 and a 4+AS is all he can get.

A Gorebull BSB would be in Ungors without spears. As cheap as possible and only there to provide ranks. We'll see....i am mainly trying to still take one as i have just finished converting a gorebull BSB and am painting it now....
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 25, 2010, 10:53:40 AM
But that wargor BSB will be really squishy and is guaranteed to get at least four return attacks from whatever he is facing. Especially when carrying a magic banner. T5 and a 4+AS is all he can get.

Not true. He can take Heavy Armor, Shield, and then 50 points in gifts. So he can have a 2+ AS if you give him Gnarled Hide.

Giving him the magic banner does not take away from his 50 points for gifts and magic items (though he cannot then take magic items) so he still is able to get all those gifts.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 28, 2010, 09:31:31 AM
Can still take gifts  :icon_eek:. Wow,  i never noticed.  This is significant, makes it much better!

Next thought: What about chariots? Will we need them, use them? They were up to now a support for other units, providing some additional kills to break a unit in a combo charge.
Against big stubborn blocks a few additional kills won't cut it now. However those few kills might be enough to gind off that extra rank the enemy block has.
Not having to fear Str7 is also nice and makes chariots a more viable choice as character mounts. But maybe those characters are more needed in RnF blocks now.
They can still be used to cover the back of the army against fliers and such. I will probably take two, but the days of armies with 8+ chariots are over i think.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 28, 2010, 11:42:06 AM
To me, Chariots hold the same position they did in 7th. Support units that charge in along with ranked units, or that you can use to kill small annoying units.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 28, 2010, 12:37:07 PM
I never leave home without 6 chariots!  Too good, though now they don't get that sweet reroll for psychology nor do they have scythes though the whole model has primal fury.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 30, 2010, 08:34:54 AM
From the BRB (Or should we call it BFRB, big fat red book): "A character model that joins a unit of skirmishers gets the skirmisher special rule as long as he stays with the unit. characters on a mount can not join a unit of skirmishes."

Skirmishing Doombull anybody? Sure it is by far worse than it would have been in 7th (no 360° sight), but still a nice way to get some shooting protection.

Another tidbit: Mounts (and chariots) do not get the special rules of their crew and vice versa (Exceptions like fear are there). It might happen that out chriots loose the primal fury if it is errataed that only the crew has the rule. Right now i'd say it applies to the whole chariot, but then the passage in the BFRB would make no sense as chariots and crew are not separately listed anywhere.

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 30, 2010, 09:34:11 AM
Doombull will not get lookout sir, so if you put him in skirmishers look for every template weapon and spell on the table to be immediatley trained towards him.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on June 30, 2010, 10:36:56 AM
Wouldn't he get the 4+ for not being a large model while still being within a unit?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 30, 2010, 10:39:11 AM
Wouldn't he get the 4+ for not being a large model while still being within a unit?

There is no such thing.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 30, 2010, 12:14:41 PM
Actually lookout sir is only used versus templates. Not every army has those!
And normal shooting never hits the character. Even if there are less than five RnF, YOU may allocate the hits as long as you give everybody one hit. If there are less hits than models you choose who is not hit. That is huge.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 30, 2010, 12:51:57 PM
Nope, you roll to randomize hits. Reread the BRB under characters and shooting. If there are less than five rank n file you roll, assigning numbers to each model (character is one, your 3 remaining rank n file is 2, 3, and 4 unit champion is 5) then re-roll anything that is not assigned a number.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on June 30, 2010, 01:47:39 PM
I am talking about 8th edition rules here. It clearly states "...the controlling player decides who is hit, but must allocate one hit on each model before he can add a second hit on one model..." page 99.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on July 13, 2010, 07:51:06 AM
In the terrain entry, under 'Marshes' they mention the Fimir!!!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on July 13, 2010, 08:45:31 AM
Yea, i saw that. They are still around! I still have some of them from the heroquest game.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Obi on July 13, 2010, 09:43:52 AM
In the terrain entry, under 'Marshes' they mention the Fimir!!!
Perhaps the new army after all?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on July 13, 2010, 11:46:39 AM
I am talking about 8th edition rules here. It clearly states "...the controlling player decides who is hit, but must allocate one hit on each model before he can add a second hit on one model..." page 99.
Yep. That situation came up in a game on Sunday. I had 4 Rat Ogres and a Warlord left in a unit, one of the ROgres was already down to 1 wound. I charged the large unit of Quarellers, they stood and shot. I took 3 wounds. We looked up how that was handled now and was pretty surprised by what I read. I then allocated 1 wound each to 2 unwounded Ogres, and took one with the Warlord who saved it easily. Because of this I crashed in without taking a casualty, which didn't please my opponent much.

Bit strange really, because in that situation you can actually avoid having to remove full models before starting on the wounds of the next. But I couldn't find anything indicating this wasn't possible.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on July 13, 2010, 11:49:05 AM
I'd have to look it up, but it does say somewhere that you have to remove full models, so what you did wasn't actually allowed, although I agree the wording to be dubious if you only read the hit allocation thingy.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on July 13, 2010, 11:56:55 AM
All right then. Will have to read the rules a few more times to become really familiar with them. But you have to admit, they would contradict each other. I mean, I can't simultaneously remove whole models before starting on another AND NOT assign multiple wounds to one model before each other model in the unit has taken one...

I guess in the interest of preserving peace I will let the "remove whole models" rule take precedence in the future, unless someone else can come up with an angle that I missed.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on July 13, 2010, 01:40:34 PM
The two rules work with each other. You assign HITS to your models first. Then you see if they wound. Wounds on normal troopers are added up and (whole) models are removed.
The assigning hits thing is good for three things:
- Allocate more hits on a well-armoured character, so fewer troops die
- Allocate more hits on troops to save the squishy character
- distribute hits on character, multi-wound champion and troops so that as few as possible die (Works only on monstrous infantry oviously)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on July 13, 2010, 02:03:18 PM
The two rules work with each other. You assign HITS to your models first. Then you see if they wound. Wounds on normal troopers are added up and (whole) models are removed.
The assigning hits thing is good for three things:
- Allocate more hits on a well-armoured character, so fewer troops die
- Allocate more hits on troops to save the squishy character
- distribute hits on character, multi-wound champion and troops so that as few as possible die (Works only on monstrous infantry oviously)
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Might be worth it to invest the extra points for a masterbred Rat Ogre then!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on July 14, 2010, 06:26:07 AM
If you have a character on bonebreaker in there too the investment is probably worthwhile.
Minotaurs have it even better, if you get the expensive champion you can give him a magic item to buff the unit, which is nice.

Concerning minotaurs in 8th ed: Which equipment is now best? Great weapons are worse now, because even if they get the charge they will get smacked first. And most mino units will not be big enough to have models stepping up.

AHW will only give a benefit to minos in the first rank, as the second rank will only hit with max 3 attacks anyways.

Shields are worse too now.

I guess i will try 3-4 minos with AHW to try and shred infantry (they will die in the process, though)or 3-4 Minos with GW to counter cavalry and monsters.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on July 14, 2010, 10:40:48 AM
I still think the GW is a good choice though.  The minotaur are not head on chargers, or at least alone.  Charging with a chariot will protect either the minotaur or the chariot, depending on what the defending player wants to do.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on July 14, 2010, 11:16:44 AM
If you want to spend the points on a Gorebull BSB with Beast Banner, take a unit of AHW's to put him in, and then a unit of GW's.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on July 26, 2010, 06:58:57 PM
I hate myself...

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Other/beast1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on July 26, 2010, 07:02:35 PM
For not using a GW model or for painting it in an awesome fashion?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on July 26, 2010, 07:04:07 PM
For not using a GW model or for painting it in an awesome fashion?

That is a GW model you heretic son of a...

I just made a few delicate conversions.

But thanks for the comment.  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on July 26, 2010, 07:10:14 PM
But not a current one, is it? I don't know the Beastman range too well, but it doesn't look familiar.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Midaski on July 26, 2010, 07:16:11 PM
The shield's nice, but what is going on at the right shoulder .............  :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on July 26, 2010, 07:17:21 PM
That's a thing of twisted beauty Shadowlord.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on July 26, 2010, 08:00:15 PM
But not a current one, is it? I don't know the Beastman range too well, but it doesn't look familiar.

Mordheim range:

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Beastmen/m1050186a_99111101011_MordBeastmen1_873x627.jpg)

The shield's nice, but what is going on at the right shoulder .............  :engel:

Yeah, I notice that too but I do not have the will power to fix it.  :icon_confused:

@ Sib, thanks.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Midaski on July 26, 2010, 08:13:23 PM
Yeah, I notice that too but I do not have the will power to fix it.  :icon_confused:


I can see on the original that the sash covered the join. The funny bit is not the crack at the joint, but the way the hair starts - it looks like a stuck on beard.  :engel:

You should fix it - the rest of the model is class.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on July 26, 2010, 08:15:38 PM
You should fix it - the rest of the model is class.

The model is out of the bag and being painted again.

Grr...

 :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Midaski on July 26, 2010, 08:17:47 PM
Glad to see - I command and you obey   :engel:

A little bit of GS I would have thought first though ............
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on July 26, 2010, 08:19:20 PM
The shoulder is high enough so GS is not needed.

I am damn good at making the paint look sculpted you know.  :closed-eyes:

Next up is the Shaman (and the guy beneath the Shaman that I also converted to a Shaman).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on July 26, 2010, 08:26:09 PM
Hey, I just noticed that you replaced a beautiful blonde with a shield, and you call me a heretic!?

 :-D
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on July 26, 2010, 08:28:48 PM
Hey, I just noticed that you replaced a beautiful blonde with a shield, and you call me a heretic!?

 :-D

When you have one bossing you around in real life, any trace on the battlefield that reminds you of her, must be erased...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on July 27, 2010, 02:49:10 AM
I always thought the pose of the guy on  the bottom left looks more like he should be engaged in air guitar than pillaging.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on July 27, 2010, 02:37:20 PM
That beastman is awesome! I also like the conversion, dragging the child like a ragdoll makes him look less manly. I think i have to copy this idea.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on July 27, 2010, 07:16:56 PM
dragging the child like a ragdoll makes him look less manly.

 :unsure:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on July 28, 2010, 10:58:54 AM
Manly in the sense of a brutish, tough male. Not manly like in human.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on August 11, 2010, 08:09:47 PM
http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=20703&st=15

Alternative Gorgon, Jabberslythe and Cygor - looks pretty nice (two of them are done by a guy who is frequenting TWF, and who I will hire to do some commission stuff).

There are two things I love about these models...  :icon_rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Gneisenau on August 11, 2010, 08:36:41 PM
There are two things I love about these models...  :icon_rolleyes:

I assume you mean the dynamic pose and the well-sculpted fur.


Man, those Mordheim models are great!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on August 12, 2010, 06:34:38 AM
The Jabber is very cool and i like the cygor except for the boulder on his back. Not so much a fan of the ghorgon though, i imagine that one without armour or weapons.  And without a loincloth...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on August 12, 2010, 06:40:49 AM
This is a Hong Kong based group they do a sculpting service, http://www.misspainting.com/ in the link you can see their Vilitch and Troll King etc.

I know they do the Beastmen Beasts but can't find any images all Resin casts. I think in the link
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on August 12, 2010, 06:41:53 AM
The Gorgon and Cygor sorta remind me of Christmas.

Jingle bells, jingle bells...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on August 12, 2010, 06:53:26 AM
The Gorgon and Cygor sorta remind me of Christmas.

Jingle bells, jingle bells...

So you like it ?
 
Because we all know you like to jingle bells.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on August 12, 2010, 06:59:55 AM
So you like it ?
 
Because we all know you like to jingle bells.

You have to ask?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on August 12, 2010, 07:01:14 AM
I don't, but our young readers want to know.  :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on August 12, 2010, 07:46:54 PM
Best Cygor yet (thanks Bies):

http://cgi.ebay.com/WH-MPG-Converted-Un-Painted-Beast-Cygor_W0QQitemZ120594156533QQcategoryZ152945QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6449918891040421273
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Nicholas Bies on August 13, 2010, 12:31:04 AM
Want me to try and find the non-ebay price for it?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on August 13, 2010, 05:48:15 AM
Want me to try and find the non-ebay price for it?

Too late! My trigger happy buy finger clicked on it and...  :eusa_wall:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 15, 2010, 12:20:19 PM
So I am looking at how we might acheive a savage magic phase.  I am thinking that if we use the following items it is possible:

1. The jagged knife on the great shaman is a must I think.  He has 2 attacks, will often reroll misses, and has plenty of buffs under the Wild and BEast magic.  That said, I think he needs to use Death for best results, so he will need one of his under studies to cast the buffs on him.

2. The Herd Stone Shard.  Dropping this at the very edge of the deployment zone then keeping a pair of shaman near it will allow for some good magic magic boosting.  I made a list last night with 4 shaman (counting the lord) and the idea of allowing three to hover was interesting.  Also, one of them should ALWAYS be Slugtounge. 

If you pull the watchtower or the one where you start only 12" apart, dropping Slugtounge can be a VERY nasty surprise.  HE isn't too overpriced at 190 considering he has regeneration and that nasty plague ability.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on August 15, 2010, 01:07:54 PM
Some of the new scenarios really make slugtongue brutal.
4 shamen sounds a bit much, but can work, getting 1 PD whenever a spell is cast means that getting over 12 PD/round is possible. Death on the LVL4 is not very convincing however. I ran one once, versus elves the purple sun does not cut it and the rest of the spells is mainly character sniping, often with a pretty short range.
I will try shadow for the lvl 4 next time.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 15, 2010, 04:08:25 PM
I really don't like Shadow.  I would be much more inclined to use BEast.  Also, the breathweapon spell from WIld is unreal under 8th.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on August 16, 2010, 08:17:41 AM
I really don't like Shadow.

That is quite obvious...

Beastmen should stay off their own lore IMO.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 16, 2010, 11:14:32 AM
I don't know though.  The breath weapon attack is awesome, and viletide is very good with the hagtree fetish.  I think Lore of the BEats is good enough though to take its spot.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 17, 2010, 11:50:51 AM
Took out my beastmen after play exclusively with orcs for over a month (including whipping ass at the tournament).  But the beastmen are almost completely painted and based.

A couple things I am thinking of doing:

1.  Not rebasing my ungor and using them as unit fillers for gor units.  The ungor cannot have a character in their ranks without having them sticking off the side.
2.  The ungor are terrible.  IF they have no spear, they are only 3 points less than the gor.  If they have a spear they still suck and are not as good as the gor.  The units were made to be together, they will be together.
3.  I think a buffed Great bray shamn will be the key to a powerful magic phase using the jagged knife.  The beast list gives him many opportunities to rock out.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on August 17, 2010, 02:32:55 PM
1.  Not rebasing my ungor and using them as unit fillers for gor units.  The ungor cannot have a character in their ranks without having them sticking off the side.

Minotaur?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Midaski on August 17, 2010, 03:08:34 PM
What are beastmen chariots like now?

Finlay seems to think Orcs ones suck in Ed8 - is it the same with all chariots?

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on August 17, 2010, 04:53:54 PM
Pretty much so.

Units getting bigger, the impact of the chariot is less significant (pun intended), and then after the stubborn break roll the chariot is in trouble.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 17, 2010, 05:33:32 PM
1.  Not rebasing my ungor and using them as unit fillers for gor units.  The ungor cannot have a character in their ranks without having them sticking off the side.

Minotaur?

No look out sir.  He dies WAY TO FAST!

No, they missed the boat.  They should have kept ungor on 25mm bases.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 21, 2010, 02:07:17 AM
So I played a 2000 point game versus High Elves tonight with beastmen.  My list was:

1 Great Bray Shaman - level 4, additional hand weapon, slug skin, jagged dagger, 4+ ward talisman
1 Wargor - BSB, armor of shining silver, great weapon

28 gor - full command
4 chariots
4 minotaur - additional hand weapons
6 minotaur - great weapons
1 gorgon

Both characters were in the gor unit.  The Bray Shaman got the following spells from Beast magic - the signature spell, the +3 toughness one, the +3 strength and +3 attack one, and the transformation of Khadon

The High elves had:

1 Arch Mage - 4th, Book of Hoeth
1 BSB - Warbanner, heavy armor

29 Seaguard - full command
29 Seaguard - full command
15 Swordmaster - full command

3 repeating bolt throwers
6 silver helms - full command

Highlights - I cast Transformation at full power successfully 3 times and was cdispelled only just each time!!!!  God, I really wanted to be a Mountain Chimera! The Jagged dagger produced over 12 power dice by the end of the game, and could have done more but I only got into contact with one guy at a time.  He needs to be at the unit center to get the most out of slug skin, but that said, many arms would probably be better since he was always buffer with either the signature spell or the one which gave him 7 S7 attacks.  At one point, he had both for 7 S8 attacks with rerolls.

The High elves magic and shooting were not quite enough with all those things steaming towards them.  The minotuar did great, chewing things to bits like they are supposed to.  One unit had 6 attacks per model (the additional hand weapon ones) and were stomping for another 4.  The Gorgon proved VERY resiliant, requiring 6's to be wounded from the repeaters.  He was rapid shooting because without the bonus to hit large monsters, only half were hitting and half were wounding.  GOrgons really look like they will be a great model.  The gor with the signature buff did outstanding.

I won by 2035 when he killed three chariots and nothing else (completely anyway) and I wiped the board of him (3 banners plus general and BSB made up the 240 points the chariots cost me).

I really think beast are going to be okay.  Multiple chariots did very well too since two hitting with 6 S4 and 2 S6 rerollable attacks still makes for an okay continued combat.  The impact hits help grind things down, but they aren't what they used to be.  Minotaur will rule though since they can move through terrain without fear of slowing down and don't take dangerous terrain tests.  They won't get their ranks but they won't normally have any when they finish a round anyway. 

The jagged dagger is a must have too.  Just too nice with all of his attacks and potential buffs.

On another note, I just bought 30 bestigor.  They set me back some money, but I decided I need to get my Beastmen rolling again.  This book will be quite good, Shadowlord was right.  I should not have thought them so poor.  7th was not the edition the books was designed for.

Go gorgons!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on August 21, 2010, 08:27:52 AM
This book will be quite good, Shadowlord was right.  I should not have thought them so poor.  7th was not the edition the books was designed for.

A little dude told me about 8th long ago, so I can't take all the credit.  :closed-eyes:

Nice to hear you got Bestigors, nice concept, and new awesome models (like you, I own 30 myself and as soon as I have a decent 40K army painted, I will resume the beasts).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 22, 2010, 09:03:12 AM
So I am liking the BEstigor, but they do suffer from a couple issues:

1. The Foe-render's raised axe has no other option, meaning that if you build three boxes, you will have three champion type models.  There is no alternative arm other than the one holding the stupid looking head.  You could put the mace hand in there, but it isn't ideal. 

2.  Connected to the first, there are absolutely no bits on the sprues.  None.  So you are paying $42 for 10 bestigor with no alternate bits.  ANd people complained about the Greatswords.  At least they had some spare bits on the sprues.  It is so bad that I had to double check to ensiure I didn't need to make 3 command groups. 

So in closing, I love the models, but give the set only a 7 out of 10.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on August 22, 2010, 02:45:46 PM
2.  Connected to the first, there are absolutely no bits on the sprues.  None.  So you are paying $42 for 10 bestigor with no alternate bits.  ANd people complained about the Greatswords.  At least they had some spare bits on the sprues.  It is so bad that I had to double check to ensiure I didn't need to make 3 command groups. 

The Boar Boyz and River Trolls are similar in their lack of many extra parts.

I have noticed this change in tact in their plastic kits of late too.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 22, 2010, 07:46:40 PM
The down side is that they still only have 9 axes being held in two hands.  That means you need to use the one handed axe (the champion) to make a tenth bestigor if all you want are 10 bestigor.

On another note, I just played 3000 points versus ogres.  Rough battle but here are the lists:

1 Beastlord - tusker chariot, blood cleaver, 4+ ward save armor, gnarled hide
1 Great Bray Shaman - 4th level jagged dagger, 4+ ward talisman, many armed fiend, additional hand weapon
1 Wargor - Silver armor, great weapon, BSB
1 Bray Shaman - 2nd level, dispel scroll

Core:
3 chariots
29 gor - full command - Bray shaman unit
29 gor - full command - Great bray shaman unit

Special:
20 Bestigor - Full command - Banner of Swiftness - BSB
4 Minotaur - GW, musician
4 Minotaur - additional hand weapon, musician

Rares:
1 Gorgon
1 Jabbersyth

Ogres:
1 Tyrant - Stonethrower mace, 4+ ward item
1 S;aughtermaster - Halfling cookbook, butchers cleaver
1 Bruiser - BSB, silver armor
1 Butcher - Sickle

Core:
40 gnoblar
40 Gnoblar
9 ogre bull - ironfists, full command - Butcher
9 ogre bull - ironfists, full command - BSB
9 Irongut - full command - Tyrant

Special:
2 Scrape launchers
2 Leadbelchers
2 Leadbelchers

Rare:
3 Maneaters - Slaughtermaster

So things were pretty good.  The scenario was the mountain pass.  He got plenty of spells off, I got a few, but on turn 2, he charged my Great Shamans unit and killed just enough to remove steadfast, getting through and killing the whole thing.  The Bestigor charged and murdered a full bull unit with the BSB.  The minotaur and the jabber syth managed to finish the maneaters off.  Maneaters don't do so well against minotaur, especially after they beat the leadbelchers.  By the end of the game the minotaur had 7 attacks each (counting AHW) and the gorgon had 9. 

The Jabber hit the maneaters and got wiped out though.  He did bleed 5 S5 hits on them and only got one wound off!  His wave of madness killed 6 things in various units before his death.  The results of the battle were a complete massacre since there was nothing left on the board, but I had lost a unit of minotaur, the jabber syth, the great bray shaman and a full unit of gor.  Not bad, but the ogres looked scary at first.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on August 23, 2010, 05:50:04 AM
Against Beastmen and their monsters, you need the Tenderizer for those multiple game winning wounds.

I would also leave my scrappies at home and added more Ironguts.

I love fighting battles against Beastmen with my ogres, they are usually a close affair with few models left.

Fought two battles myself against Lizardmen and Empire lately. Just barely lost again against those god damn Lizzies with their nasty leadship rolls and saurus with spears. My slaughtermaster could have changed the battle but he miscast in turn three and got the last wounds ripped from him but to be honest, just like with Daemons, they are very hard for my fatties to face and my opponent is somewhat of a tournament player.

Empire got crushed however, had four Gorgers, carpet Bruiser, a Giant (this got his full attention...), and my buff spells removed his shooting (three cannons, one Helblaster, and 30 crossbowmen) and my general was the man of the match with his mace so no steadfast after the initial assault. Scrappies is teh shit against T3 units of bigness.

So have you faced a heavy shooting army yet with your beasts? Like Empire or Dwarfs?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 23, 2010, 10:19:04 AM
I have not yet fought Dwarves, but I bet they will be the worst matchup imaginable for Beasts!  Empire wouldn't be  as bad.  I would probably ambush two units.  Like the scrape launchers, I don't think the mortars would be as bad, but again, I think they would do well.

Looking at the ogres again, I have to admit, much of what happened could have gone either way.  He was churning through things, but both of us were murdering at a frenzied pace.  The whim of the dice seemed to be the deciding factor, since the two sides are relatively evenly matched in combat.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 26, 2010, 01:41:38 AM
Just had a big 3000 point game against Chaos Warriors.  I won by 3270.  The armies:

1 Beastlord - great weapon, 4+ ward save armor, gnarled hide, gouge tusk
1 Great Bray Shaman - 4th level, jagged dagger, 4+ ward talisman, bloodcleaver, razorgor chariot
1 Wargor - great weapon, BSB, beast banner
1 Bray Shaman - 2nd level, dispel scroll

Core:
2 chariots
29 gor - full command - Bray shaman unit
29 gor - full command - Beastlord unit
60 ungor - spears and shields, full command.  BSB unit

Special:
24 Bestigor - Full command - Banner of Swiftness
6 Minotaur - GW

Rares:
1 Ghorgon

Chaos Warriors:

1 Chaos Lord - not sure what he had, he didn't stick around long
1 BSB - Banner which subtracts 1 from the leadership of anyone who can see him
1 4th level Sorcerer - Slaanesh. Diabolical Splendor, and something else

Core:

10 Chaos Marauder Horsemen - Mark of Khorne - full command, flails
10 Chaos Marauder Horsemen - Mark of Khorne - full command, flails
22 Chaos Warriors - Mark of Tzentch - Shields, full command - BSB and Wizard lords unit
23 Chaos Warriors - Mark of Khorne - Shields, halberds, full command, rapturous standard - Chaos Lords unit
35 Marauders - Mark of Tzentch, shields, full command
35 Marauders - Mark of khorne, great weapons, full command
10 Chaos hounds
10 Chaos hounds

Special:

5 Chaos knights of khorne, banner and musician
5 Chaos knights of nurgle, banner and musician


So the highlights:

The battle field was cool.  We had the fortified manor and the watch tower to my left, with about 15" of fence running to a pair of forests which were pressed togeteher with another set of fences running to the opposite edge.  Basically about 3/5 of the board in the middle was building, obstacle, or forest.  Opposite me there was a Sigmarite Chapel (which did nothing for either of us) and another set of fences.  The set of fences was across from the last set of fences, making a corral of sorts with the right board edge forming the right hand side.  It was a very nice looking board.  There was another copse of trees north of the fortified manor.  All of the terrain was citadel, making for a cool, uniform look.

The battle was the dawn battle.  My gorgon and a chariot were put to my left, a single chariot to my right, and everything else was in the middle.  HE had a nice deployment, the BSB unit was put all the way to his left, which was the only bad drop for him.  His general was dead center, flanked by the two chaos knight units to his left, and marauder unit to his right.  The horsemen and the hounds all got dropped to his left (my right).  The last marauder unit was dropped to my left with a unit of hounds.  He went first.  Some surprises came out of the war. 

1. The BSB in the ungor unit made them S4. I buffed them in my turn 1 with the Beast magic signature spell.  That made them S5 T4.  He charged them with both units of knights after I ran up to the middle fences and occupied it.  So he had a -1 to hit.  I had 40 S5 rerollable attacks, and 3 S7 attacks with my BSB.  I killed one nurgle knight and 5 khorne knights, but lost combat.  I stuck.  Next round I killed 3 more nurgle knights after a reform to get the BSB into contact.  He still managed to stay though.  Next round I finished him off.  Go ungor!

2.  On turn one I charged the hounds with a chariot.  I rolled a 15 (the beginnings of some great charge rolls) and they fled.  I redirected into the middle marauder unit, killing 8 total.  I then took 4 GW attacks and died.  The chariot was the only thing to yield any points for him that game. 

3.  His marauders hit my generals unit of gor.  They got 18 wounds on them and fled.  I carried through and charged his generals unit the next turn.  I got the buff on the gor, giving them S4 and T5.  I accepted his lords challenge with my champion and only took 2 wounds.  His unit butchered me for 6 wounds, but I got 4 off with my gor and 4 with the Beastlord who was at that point a S8 T6 rerolling monster (the buff and his Primal Fury).  I beat the unit, it had a banner that allowed it to make an insane courage test on any doubles or a single one.  He rolled a 7 and fled.  I didn't catch him but next round he rolled a 12 and ran off the board.

4.  The minotaur and gorgon only saw one unit of comabt.  The minotaur hit the tzentch marauders, killed 10, and made them flee (outside of the generals LD).  They rallied, but I double charged them with the minotaur and the gorgon.  There were about 3 left, who ran off the board.  The minotaur and gorgon were so far from everything else they couldn't see action again.  I had lined the gogron up to flank charge either the chaos lord's unit or the marauders, but the CL unit ran.  He is nice and fast though.

5.  Miscasts were horrible.  Turn one I did the 5" pie plate.  Thank god I had decided the best place for the GBS was a chariot!  HAd he been in his unit, they would have been vaporized!  He proceeded to miscast 3 times during the game, and the 2nd level one did it once (on 2 dice!).  At games end both were at one wound.

6.  by turn 6 the entire army had pin wheeled around to corner the BSB's unit and the marauders.  I then made 4 charges at really difficult distances.  I needed a 9 on two dice for the bestigor and another 9 for the generals unit, a 10 on swift stride and a 9 on swift stride.  I made all of them, leaving the 22 chaos warrior unit with a razorgor and tuskagor chariot on its left flank, the generals gor on his right, and the BSB in the bestigor (I had moved him out of the ungor since the ungor would have needed to move through all of those woods to get into combat) on its front.  Miraculously, he ended up having 4 left at the end and broke, being run down.  The bestigor were all S8 T5 thanks to the banner and the signature buff.  They also made 4 rAS rolls of 6 in the final turn. Insult to injury there!  Amazing damage output.  Everything but the tuskagor made its primal fury test.

So in the ned I lost 80 points, but captured 6 banners, the BSB, and the general for a total of 3350 points.  Pretty crazy.  BEastmen can swing it out with chaos, since normal chaos warriors just can't put out enough damage without a halberd, and even when they do they cannot take the attrition as well.  Primal fury is an absolute godsend with the BSB rerolls.  Ungor hordes with the strength banner and their rerolls are scary.  They can pump out so many attacks and just take the return swings it is awesome.  The problem of course is that the BSB has to hang off the end, making wheels a pain.  Still, it is best since you can make sure he is only touching the very outside model, minimizing the number of attacks directed at him.

Magic was great, despite the miscasts.  The buffs and the single hex really made things difficult for him.  He couldn't charge at times because he was facing a buffed gor unit with a hexed unit of his own.  That was a difficult proposition since they were unable to do alot of damage all night.

I am really enjoying the beastmen again!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadoweyed on August 27, 2010, 04:26:28 PM
That sounds like a great game Phil. I have to ask, as I have seen a few of your lists now, do you not put Additional Hand Weapons on your Gors? If so, why not? I'm really just curious, as I know you are most definitely a better general than I.  :blush:

-Shadoweyed
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on August 27, 2010, 07:49:49 PM
I always do additional hand weapons.  As a matter of fact, I do it so often I forget they can take nothing or a shield!  It is a hold over from the fact that I played them for 3 editions.  Last edition they could have either a shield or the AHW so it was automatic!

They should always take one or the other too.  I prefer AHW since they don't get a huge benefit from the shield.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Walt von Ark on August 31, 2010, 11:13:17 AM
I'm going up against High elves with my beasties.
it's gonna be my first 8th ed. game with beastmen and only my second time with their new book( the first time i crushed a dwarf-army, they didn't stand a chance)
But my pointy eared foe, is a much nastier, experienced and spitefull general. the last few games ( 7th ed.) he wasn't able to defeat either my empire or dark elves, so next game he is going all out!!
this could mean anything from multiple dragons, battery's of boltthrowers with lots of seaguards and spearmen, heavy magic( teclis even) or maybe just manly elite units and fighty characters... it could be anything.
As i don't have much experience with the beasts i was hoping you guy's could give me some pointers on what to take or tactics.

Walt
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 01, 2010, 05:11:16 AM
Two unit of 18 minotaurs!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 01, 2010, 09:34:01 AM
HE are not too tough for beastmen.  They are not going to shoot you enough to stop you, and you will be able to do very good damage to them.  While I am biased, try the list I used against WoC.  It is a well rounded list and capable against all comers.  You aren't goin to want to dump too many minotaur, only because they have only a few wounds and will be facing those ASF.  You could go with ambushers too, but I doubt you would need too.  The RBT's are not that good anymore.  Maybe drop the minotaur in the list I have above and take a pair of 10 gor ambushers then boost the gor to 40 models each.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on September 03, 2010, 01:14:46 AM
hmm my mate has just offered to sell me his unpainted semi-made Beast army.

Doombull
2 wargor (AHW, GW)
2 Shaman conversions
5 razagor conversions
60 gor (2xFC)
handful of ungor
6 minotaurs with greatweapons (FC)
2 Gorgon conversions from Giants

bad time to offer to me, I got paid so I was planning on dropping $1500 on Ogres (2 battalions) tomorrow but this is also tempting. Any advice on helping me decide?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 03, 2010, 04:14:23 AM
Beastmen are way better than Ogres, especially right now. Ogres did not get that much of a boost in 8th, though they did get one. Beastmen are pretty brutal, if you play them right.

Just don't base your strategy around a single humongous ungor spear herd (like the other beastman player at my store) and you will be okay.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 03, 2010, 07:04:33 AM
Beastmen are way better than Ogres, especially right now. Ogres did not get that much of a boost in 8th, though they did get one. Beastmen are pretty brutal, if you play them right.

Better, but not way better.

Ogres did get a boost that is quite nice for 8th, but Beastmen were written for 8 so naturally they fit the rules better.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 03, 2010, 10:27:31 AM
Beastmen are significantly better than ogres, but as Shadowlord said, they have a newer book.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on September 03, 2010, 02:18:17 PM
our beast players are really struggling, any way i got 2 ogre battalions today.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 03, 2010, 06:59:06 PM
our beast players are really struggling, any way i got 2 ogre battalions today.

They are not true beasts like Philly.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 03, 2010, 07:52:05 PM
Well, I am not about to say I am a top tier general.  I am pretty good though.

I have had nothing but success with beasts.  If they aren't then they need to look at alternate means of play.

That said, I see nothing wrong with buying ogres.  Far quicker to paint and a very enjoyable army.  I did however recently sell mine.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 06, 2010, 05:56:29 AM
I have had nothing but success with beasts.

At least you acknowledged that I was right, and to me, that is all that matters.  :engel:

Having an urge to get back to my beasties, but with new converted characters out of plastics (except the Doombull, love that new model).

I got that cygor model from that Chinese company, and it is a really nice sculpt and a perfect fit for the beastmen army.

Still lacking a Gorgon however...  :icon_cry:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Nicholas Bies on September 06, 2010, 06:04:38 AM
HAHA

I'm sure I've showed you some of their painting as well haven't I?

ALso I talked to Sonny (the owner) he says if you send them a photo they'll make you a scuplt and send it to you. No idea about the price though.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 12, 2010, 07:48:54 PM
So I just nabbed my next 20 bestigor.  I hope to have 60 total.  I now have 40, so only a few more.

They are nice looking models when seen in person.  I am making manes for them now.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 15, 2010, 05:06:28 AM
OOOOOoooooooh! Another very viable base for Gribblies!

(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1380105a_99111466044_LotRCaveDrake1_873x627.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on September 15, 2010, 05:14:48 AM
Sweet bejeesus, I especially like the mini Jabberwocky below the huge thing.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Moxer on September 15, 2010, 05:56:31 AM
Nice. What size is it and which manufacturer?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 15, 2010, 06:18:24 AM
Games Workshop and LotR - Dragons.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 15, 2010, 06:25:04 AM
It's pretty big.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 15, 2010, 06:35:53 AM
I LOVE YOU GRIBBLIE!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 15, 2010, 10:19:44 AM
You nut!

Of course, the real question is:  why would you waste your money on making a jabbercythe?  The only time it did anything for me was against Ogres.  It caused like 7 wounds from its crazy ability, then managed to bleed on a Maneater as it murderer it (the jabberscyth was murdered that is).

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Moxer on September 15, 2010, 02:21:34 PM
Yea, i am glad i waited with my jabberslythe conversion until 8th was revealed. I won't bother doing it now, there is other stuff to do first. The metal wings i bought go into the bitz box...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 15, 2010, 08:30:38 PM
I made one, but it looks crazy enough to double for a Ghorgon or Giant so its all good.  Seriously though, the best the thing could do was bleed to death and kill a maneater in the process...

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 15, 2010, 11:59:03 PM
I've had mine murder chariots, characters, lone wizards, warmachines, flying cavalry, regular cavalry, etc, etc. And he does indeed bleed well, and I have had his dying blood spurts take out enemy characters. I like him. I know he's about a billion points overcosted, and flying is not as great as it used to be, but I still like him.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 16, 2010, 01:07:31 AM
I like my model, I like the idea, I just can't help but think that 24 bestigor would be far better for the points!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 16, 2010, 02:54:36 AM
Yeah ...




So?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 16, 2010, 06:30:05 AM
Well said Cannon, well said!

Even if I love the Bestigor models.  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 16, 2010, 10:33:59 AM
Well by that logic you would be taking giants and centigor.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 16, 2010, 11:22:33 AM
Well by that logic you would be taking giants and centigor.

Not when the centigor models suck I wouldn't.  :closed-eyes:

Giants? Hell yes, those are awesome models.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 16, 2010, 08:25:31 PM
Maybe we are talking about two different things.

I was referring to effectiveness.  You are now talking about models.  The Jabbersythe has no model, so using one because you like the model doesn't work in this case.  Cannon was talking about effectiveness, not the model.

Centigor look okay, but yes, the giant is awesome.  Luckily it is the base for the best GW cygor and ghorgon.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 17, 2010, 05:44:01 AM
The best Cygor model is actually the Cygor model I own, the resin model I bought from China (gracie Nicholas).

Looks 99% like the Cygor in the book.

I know what you were talking about, I am just raising the pulse a little...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 17, 2010, 09:59:04 AM
Nicholas is no longer with us.  He was banned last week.

But on that subject, I prefer GW legal mini's whenever possible.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on September 17, 2010, 10:32:16 AM
Nicholas is no longer with us.  He was banned last week.

And no-one noticed.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 17, 2010, 10:38:05 AM
I know right!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 17, 2010, 12:22:38 PM
Wut?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: MrDWhitey on September 17, 2010, 12:27:17 PM
I know right!

Phil

Some of us did notice, but I don't really think this is something you should be bringing up.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on September 17, 2010, 12:41:22 PM
So you decided to bring it up.

 :unsure:

Well anyhow I think you had your reasons to ban him and the reason to take the Jabberwocky is that it has a cool name loads of funny and interesting special rules AND it potentially can win games if you fly it between artillery far away from the general and let them fail their leadership rolls.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 17, 2010, 01:25:04 PM
This thread makes no sense anymore.

I like it!  :closed-eyes:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on September 17, 2010, 01:29:18 PM
This thread makes no sense anymore.

I like it!  :closed-eyes:

We need another battle report I guess, I think it is your turn Shadowlord.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 17, 2010, 01:42:26 PM
OK but only a quickie!

Last sunday I faced a Witch Hunter themed Empire army with flaggies, cannons, IC knights and what not.

We played the diagonal scenario where on the roll of 1 your unit or characters, enters as reserve. Unlucky as I am, both my general and the BSB came in as reserves. That hampered my speed - I had only Ogres in this fight and nothing else. My magic phase was pretty weak, priests and RoP did see to that, and his flaggies butchered quite the lot of Ogres before being slaughtered by regular bulls (I lost maneaters who were buffed with both T5 and regen before that, though they did manage to remove most of the flaggies for my bulls to take out the rest in the flank). His cannons got eaten by gorgers, his two knight units, incl. IC, were slaughtered by my star unit as was his stank (who survived 3 fighting turns because of that horrible T10).

In the end I had the game in my hand - or so I thought - his helblaster was in reach as was his handgunners and ripped a butcher, a unit of bulls, and one unit of leadies. I thought they were definately out of reach but each was at 22-23 inch range. That meant that my slaughter became just a draw because of my messed up eyes.  :icon_lol:

Even you pulled my legs here Fandir, I gave you this one. For free.

And to keep this on topic, BEASTMEN MODELS RULES!!!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on September 17, 2010, 01:55:35 PM

Even you pulled my legs here Fandir, I gave you this one. For free.



All three of them? Great  :happy:

Quote
And to keep this on topic, BEASTMEN MODELS RULES!!!

I also like how the went from...well ok in 7th edition to ....wow how can I defeat those suckers in 8th.

Well I still would have liked a mixed unit warrior band rule for the gors.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 17, 2010, 04:51:52 PM
Beasts are a middle of the road army in 8th.  They really need to hang their balls out there to win.  This produces a reckless style of play, which often favors them against players who are unprepared.  But if that CC phase doesn't go their way...

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 17, 2010, 04:54:18 PM
But if that CC phase doesn't go their way...

What the hell are you talking about?

You clearly forget the shooting phase...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 17, 2010, 05:01:53 PM
Throwing axes and S3 Ungor raiders for the win!

:D

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 17, 2010, 08:20:42 PM
Yeah but at least they do get to fire some arrows, and they have that monstrous stone throwing Cygor.  :biggriin:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 18, 2010, 11:34:19 AM
But the cygor is the second best choice at rare and about the 5th best choice in the rare/special catagory.  He is an over priced stonethrower that gets mauled in CC without any difficulty.  People have stopped taking him.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Siberius on September 22, 2010, 10:46:38 PM
I'm thinking about getting the shaggoth and using him as the ghorgon... plus he can double as a giant if I'm feeling so inclined. I just always loved that model and it's so sad not to be able to get it and seeing as I'm not majorly fond of any of the other big minis out there, seems logical.

By the way, you hint at an order of goodness of the rares...

How does that order go?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Warlord on September 23, 2010, 12:49:41 AM
It is one of my favourite models too. I should assemble mine.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Siberius on September 23, 2010, 01:09:01 AM
Or package it up and send it to me  :engel:.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 23, 2010, 01:26:23 AM
THe generally accepted order of goodness in rares is:

Ghorgon by a long margin
Cygor
Jabbersythe
Giant

If you are looking for order of goodness between both rares and specials:

Bestigor
Minotaur
Ghorgon
Cygor
Jabbersythe
Giant

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Moxer on September 23, 2010, 08:37:53 AM
Bestigor better than minotaur, who would have thought that six months ago? By then i was a bit pissed that i had purchased 30 bestigor, now i am glad i did so!
BTW in which unit sizes are bestigor played? Big killy blocks or small (10-15) units to support gor/ungor blocks? A big block sounds good, but it is a lot of points. Has to stay close to the Ld9 general and BSB, so they won't panic away.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 23, 2010, 10:42:46 AM
Bestigor work best in 24 - 36 models.  They work very well.  What makes them better than minotaur are their survivability.  You get all of their attacks, as opposed to the minotaur who take casualties, and with their rerolls the combat output is comparable.  Plus Bestigor will be steadfast in many cases when they do lose.  Plus thye pursue the full distance.

It is pretty close between the two units.  I use one of each.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 23, 2010, 11:16:52 AM
Bestigors looks so much better, model wise as well.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Siberius on September 23, 2010, 12:34:48 PM
This is tricky. I had pretty much happily written off Bestigor as over expensive (money wise) and under effective (game wise).

I do love the minis though... maybe I will have to just collect them gradually.

The fact that the ghorgon is number one rare meany is nice to know though. Maybe I'll make him a removable eyepatch so he can be a cygor every now and again too  :wink:.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Shadowlord on September 23, 2010, 03:41:48 PM
Time is not of the essence for me so anyone who is interested in that OOP Banner Bearer, can PM me.

I do not have time to work with four armies so Beasts are unfortunately out.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 23, 2010, 07:56:25 PM
The ghorgon is good, but the more you play, the harder it will be to not use bestigor or minotaur instead.  I am dropping the ghorgon for another unit of minotaur.

The current minotaur models are awesome too though.  I just finished my great weapon unit of 7th edition figures.  They are so much better than the old ones!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Siberius on September 23, 2010, 10:41:53 PM
And so the thread comes full circle.

 :happy:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Dirk Hardpeck on September 24, 2010, 03:10:00 AM
So I gotta question about the Rares in the Beastmen Army. I've read some of the pages in this thread and it seems the general consensus is that in order to make everything but Giants and Spawn, you gotta convert.

So the question is, what are the best models to use to convert for creating things like a Ghorgon, Cygor, or Jabbersythe? Also, what conversion do y'all suggest for making a BSB?  I just started collecting Beastmen this week and have a nominal 1k army; actually it's more like 870-something but when you add items and such it gets to 1k right quick.

The army is as follows:
(1) Beastlord- 189pts.
Extra Hand-Weapon; Heavy Armor
(1) Wargor- 135pts.
B.S.B.; Extra Hand-Weapon; Heavy Armor & Shield; Gnarled Hide
(30) Gor Herd- 265pts.
Full Command; Extra Hand Weapon
(8) Chaos Hounds- 72pts.
Poisoned Attacks
(2) Tuskgor Chariots- 160pts.
(3) Minotaurs- 177pts.
Extra Hand-Weapon

GRAND TOTAL:  998pts.

Also, I played a quick 500 point game the other day against Empire just to get some feelers out on how Beastmen play (also that's all I had had assembled at that point and was gettin' an itchy trigger finger to play lol) and I was impressed, although I think the Empire player took pity on me as he fielded no shooting units.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Warlord on September 24, 2010, 04:09:03 AM
I would Cygor would use the giant kit.
Jabbersylthe I would be tempted to use a Seeker, as well as some of the old plastic dragon bits, and perhaps the wings from the new Demon Prince.
Ghorgor I'm not really sure (but I'm sure some of the Beasts players will answer....)

Use some of the Ogre banner bits (the really big banner and / or the animal skull) for the Gor BSB banner.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 24, 2010, 04:33:30 AM
Time is not of the essence for me so anyone who is interested in that OOP Banner Bearer, can PM me.

PM sent!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Siberius on September 24, 2010, 07:37:37 AM
I think the giant could work for a ghorgon too, though I'm hoping to get my hands on the shaggoth model and use him.

As for the jabber... it's pretty loose in many ways as to what it might look like so I think you really could cobble together various bits into a horrible monstrosity...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: Moxer on September 24, 2010, 07:39:04 AM
The ghorgon can also be made from the giant kit with a minotaur head, but you need some skill to make it look good.
I personally converted a prepainted D&D miniature to be a Ghorgon and it came out OK.

The jabber is hard to do, on the other hand it really needs only to be a crazy thing with wings,  there are a lot of conversion possibilities.  If you want to use GW-only stuff you could go with a chaos spawn with added wings, the chaos dragon Galrauch or a slightly converted demon prince for example.

For a Ghorgon a bloodthirster without wings would be good too.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 24, 2010, 08:34:53 AM
Tyranid stuff works good for a Jabber. Bloodthirster is really too small to make a good Ghorgon.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!
Post by: phillyt on September 24, 2010, 10:42:28 AM
Time is not of the essence for me so anyone who is interested in that OOP Banner Bearer, can PM me.

PM sent!

I sent one too.

Cygors and Ghorgons are made using the giant kit.  Really the ghorgon can be anything as long as you get 4 arms on it.  The Jabbersycth is easy.  It can be a pile of green stuff with any wing kit if you wanted.  I used my super chaos spawn and stuck the hippogriph wings from the Brettonian king circa 1998 on it.

And technically, they ghorgon is bigger than a giant, so the blood thrister doesn't really work.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on September 24, 2010, 12:23:33 PM
The BT is shit for anything, even a BT - way too small.

There Maelstrom Games have super expensive alternatives for all three, even I am not too fond of two of them.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Dirk Hardpeck on September 25, 2010, 10:38:56 AM
Thanks everyone. My next question is:

I have never seen the Shaggoth and Giant models either put together OR even in boxes. That said, would it be possible to put the upper-half of the Shaggoth onto the lower-half of the Giant model that uses the hoved legs in order to produce a Ghorgon? I have spare bits from my Minotaurs to add on extra arms and modeling putty. I'll admit I have never used said putty however lol.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on September 25, 2010, 11:59:45 AM
No really.  You need a saw to cut through 2 inches of pewter, then you need to find a way for the whole thing to not tip over everytime you move it.

You would probably do better to modify the shaggoth on its own and just call it a ghorgon.  It is chaos after all, you could just say it is a mutant.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Dirk Hardpeck on September 26, 2010, 03:53:02 AM
Hrmm ... that sounds like a plan. Maybe use the modeling putty to shape the parts of the body as I want them? Like the feet into hooves.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on September 26, 2010, 10:24:06 AM
Sorry lads, a buddy of mine took it.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on September 26, 2010, 06:58:14 PM
 :icon_cry:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on September 26, 2010, 08:11:55 PM
No skin off my back.  I loved that model in 2003 and wanted it from a completist's point of view.  I did just finish my BSB who is worlds more impressive in terms of size and girth.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 09, 2010, 03:18:25 PM
Well, I'm about to take on Lizards at 1500pts... wish me luck, I'm not feeling very confident. Saurus give me nightmares now. Only thing I have that I can think will squish them is minotaurs and I can only afford one unit of them (well... one unit of 6, which is what I fancy).

I'm about to go finish up my list now. I'm having major issues deciding what to do about characters... should I play a beastlord for the ld or a wizard lord for some serious magic competition... and do I take a BSB as my second character... ahh, too many choices and not enough points...

I shall report back briefly later about my failings.  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 10, 2010, 12:17:16 AM
Well, it's a few hours after battle. Here's a quick take on how it went...

First off, the armies.

Beast:

Beastlord: H.A, Gnarled Hide, Helm, Steel Claws
Shaman L2: Man Pelt, Hagtree Fetish, 5pt Gift

23 Gors with AHW full command
2 x  Tuskgor chariot
4 x  5 Hounds
2 x  5 Raiders

6 Minotaurs with AHW full command
5 Harpies
1 Razorgor

Spawn


Lizard:

Oldblood: Sword of +2A, Potion of Speed, Armour of 4+ Ward
Skink Chief BSB on Stegadon: Lance of 2D6 IH

18 Spear Saurus inc full com
2 x  10 Skirmishers

12 Temple Guard inc full com
3 Terradons

1 Salamander
1 Razordon



Here's some views of deployment...


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/BehindBeasts.jpg)

We were playing the ravine scenario so there wasn't a lot of room to work with. I pretty much stuck the Minos and Gors in the middle and surrounded them with my more useless units. We decided to try out 'proper' deployment and ended up with some rediculous terrain. In the middle there is a charnal pit (bad for me), on the left if a fungus forest, on the right are wild woods. In the background you can see some arcane ruins, I set up my shaman there.



(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/BehindLizards.jpg)

There you can see my shaman better. He got the transformation beasts spell so he was sitting ready to channel some serious dice and turn into a raging dragon to fly in from behind the lizards. They set up surrounding the stegadon, mirroring my own deployment, unsurprisingly as our units matched pretty well across from each other.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 10, 2010, 12:38:07 AM
Alas, the lizards got first turn and the terradons, having made a vanguard move to the middle, flew back over my shaman, pelting him with rocks and obliterating him before my evil plan could reach fruition. At this point I was very sad. It seemed too good to be true that he had no magic and I was reveling in the idea of drawing extra power and turning into a huge beasty to terrify him from behind, but it wasn't to be.

I picked myself up and tried to tell myself that my guys stood some chance in combat without some magic boosting. I felt affraid though. Guess I was stupid to put him back there but I forgot about vanguard and it cost me.

In the first few turns, other than that, there were very few casualties on both sides as we both moved towards each other, neither willing to get drawn too far in and swallowed by the other's army. In the end it was my uncontrolable spawn that set things in motion. He bounded right up infront of the steggy and temple guard. They jumped on him and he was promptly squashed. They over-ran hoping to slam into my minos, but came up a fraction short. My minos unsheathed their axes and prepared for some dinner.

My turn saw them charge the temple guard and cut down a good 7 or 8. Due to the lack of ranks, the temple guard could only cut down one in return and turned tail, fleeing way out of the mino's reach. Sadly I ended up pursuing 1", just within the steg's charge arc. Low and behold, next turn saw him crash into their flank dropping two of them and the other's fled out of his reach.

On the other flank, the saurus spears finally shuffled forward alongside the razordon, goading the gors into a charge which I (semi) willingly took up. I sneakily avoided charging the razordon, not wishing 2d6 shots before I even hit combat. They were joined by a chariot and did me proud. I've developed a fear of saurus recently, with their multiple attacks and high stats, but I cut down a good 9 of them I think in total. The generals exchanged blows, the Oldblood downing his potion to get the first attacks in, but it turned out our generals were well matched, stat wise and whilst he was able to sneak a wound through, they stood at stalemate and with the rest of his unit being slaughtered around him, the lizards fled and were cut down. Huzzah for gors!

On the other flank, my minos rallied, but stood ready to take another stegadon charge. Wallop! He flew in and hit with 11 impact hits, With 9 wounds, there was no need to roll combat. They were annihilated where they stood. Ouch! Meanwhile, close by, the salamander had been chewing gradually on the chariot. On finishing the job, the surrounding hounds and ungors, too far from my general turned and ran in all directions.

By the end of the battle, things seemed pretty even. The last turn seemed to be mainly a case of mopping up stragglers. Most of the lizards, free from combat, concentrated on shooting up what was left of my light troops. My razorgor, having had not much to do the entire battle declared a reckless charge on the 3 remaining temple guard and thumped into their flank, killing two and then stomping the last one into the dirt. With the last act of the battle, on tallying up the points, it turned out that he had won me the game by a most narrow margin. In the end, I had done it by about 150pts. Had he not got through all of them, or had their return attacks taken his last wound it would have been an honourable draw, but in a most beastly fashion I edged it!

It was a great game which at one point I thoroughly expected to lose. Had my gors not had as much luck with their rolls on the saurus and if they'd lost that combat, I'd have been comprehensively beaten. The combats for the centre were crucial with much else of the little units around it being a mere side show. The minos were their normal brutal self before being mown down by an angry stegadon. I was greatly pleased by the gors for the first time this edition and indeed having a beastlord stuck in there with them was really cool.

Had I not been so foolish with my shaman, his combat boosting potential (+1 T, +1S spell and the fetish for reroll wounds), not to mention potential monstrous abilities could have really helped make it a greater swing, but the lizards could easily have snatched it a bunch of times too.

To sum up, loving the new rules! I've had a load of good close games now and it seems like things are a lot more even all round.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Siberius on October 10, 2010, 01:02:04 AM
Sorry, one more thing.... I accidentally ended up editing this kinda cool...

The lizards emerge from the jungle, ready to defend their homeland as the sun rises...


(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs041.snc4/34408_484128591132_501426132_7480230_6094141_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: phillyt on October 10, 2010, 08:16:57 PM
Nice report.  I always say, there is never a reason to not have characters either in a unit or in a chariot.

Also, the doombull model is pretty sweet, pretty heavy, and painted up!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Siberius on October 10, 2010, 11:51:04 PM
You're probably right. I nearly went with that dagger thing, but I got scared for his safety at the last moment and decided he'd hide by himself... at the back of his army... ah well!
 :-P
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: phillyt on October 11, 2010, 12:28:21 AM
The jagged dagger really only works on the shaman lord due to his stat bump and wounds.

Also, the steel claws are not good.  The bloodcleaver is better, while a traditional great weapon is perhaps best.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Siberius on October 11, 2010, 09:58:22 AM
I didn't want to lose initiative over the lizards though... was worried about getting pummeled before even getting my attacks out. As it happened, he had the speedy gonzalez potion anyways... and I survived. I was surprised he didn't have something that boosted his strength more. Maybe I'll just stick with the GW. It has been working up till that point for me. I'm not really fond of any of the Beasts weapon options. I might have taken something from the common list, but I didn't have it with me at the time.  :-P
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 11, 2010, 10:24:32 AM
Lizards should take great weapons or that chotec blade that grants him additional -2 armour save and flaming attacks....I personally like the crown of command and the armour of fate (4+ward save and heavy armour tolling up to 2+ save on foot) with great weapon and crown of command if I don´t field a slann, cold blooded stubborn on ld 8 is hard to break. Temple guard is only worth it with a slann otherwise they are too expensive.

Other than that, great game and kudos to gors they are one of the best units in the game right now.

I also decided to really enjoy 8th edition, with a strong opponent even power builds have weaknesses that can be exploited.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Siberius on October 11, 2010, 08:06:22 PM
Yup, especially when you don't know what kind of battle you are playing beforehand. That's one of my favourite new things, even aside from the rules tweaks. It just freshens everything up.

I still think the terrain chart is a bit ridiculous, but we decided to see how it went and it did provide some interesting tactical challenges (like the -1 Ld pool right smack bang in the middle of the table). I think the wood option should have more chance of being... normal though. A 1 in 6 is a little crazy.

Out of interest, when you get 'special' woods, I guess that forest striders are not immune right? It'd just be kinda sensible if they were, actually give that rule some meaning now...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: phillyt on October 12, 2010, 12:06:47 AM
On the topic of the steel claws and beast weapons, I agree that they just aren't that good.  The axes of shorgor are great for doom bulls, the cleaver is awesome for chariot mounted beastlords, but other than that most of the others are worthless.  Beast characters do really well at ruining rank and file so thats sort of thebuild I go for.

As for the striders, I think they suffer from the effect, though it does say they treat the terrain as "normal".

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Siberius on October 12, 2010, 02:38:31 AM
So do you let your champions take the fall in the challenge whilst your beastlord downs the front rank of the enemy?

I was just reading Khazrak's rules earlier. He'd be really fun to take against a horde. 10 attacks is nothing to be sniffed at!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: phillyt on October 12, 2010, 02:57:31 AM
So do you let your champions take the fall in the challenge whilst your beastlord downs the front rank of the enemy?

Yes, if they are in the challenging mood.  I would rather just whale on the unit instead.  Let their characters do what they will, characters have never had a lesser effect on combat than they do now.  Why waste your attacks on their character when you can just roll more and more wounds into the equation to compliment your already awesome hateful gor and ungor?

Quote
I was just reading Khazrak's rules earlier. He'd be really fun to take against a horde. 10 attacks is nothing to be sniffed at!

He would, and his dark mail gives him some nice protection.  He is the only real reason to run an ambush army, but I still don't use him.  The normal beast list is too good.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Siberius on October 12, 2010, 02:35:06 PM
Course sometimes you just have to do the challenge for the sake of the story.

It's so hard to resist when two generals actually make contact on the battlefield not letting them duke it out. Alas, this time the casualties were so high that they didn't get to fight further, but I'm thinking that might actually of been for the best. His character had everything but Initiative on mine and I was already a wound down...

Even I, who is often having to resist the taunting chicken noises when I refuse to charge into bad situations can't help but call some challenges when glory is on the line.  :wink:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: phillyt on October 13, 2010, 12:47:51 AM
See I don't like challenges.  Most of the time nothing happens when a pair of generals hit each other.  They cause maybe one wound and the combat swirls around them.  I like to maul 3 or 4 guys with my general and laugh as he gets covered in gore. Thats where beastlords excel.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Siberius on October 13, 2010, 01:53:21 AM
I'll try the mauling and laughing. It sounds fun.


 :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Warlord on October 13, 2010, 02:20:26 AM
Agree.

Challenges are either immediate death, or a long slog match between well protected characters.

They are much more useful killing the enemy. Declining challenges, and having a character forced to the back is bit... off IMO.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Siberius on October 13, 2010, 09:56:48 AM
And you call yourself Warlord...  ;p
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 13, 2010, 12:29:03 PM
 :dry: I lost a game in the tournament because I took a challenge with my bsb....well I am soooooooooo great protected I can take it *splat*

on the other hand my Lector likes challenging everyone and everything and he smashed through 5 chaos knights with three characters inside the unit too.  :engel:

Killing rank and file troopers....with empire? Won´t happen.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: phillyt on October 13, 2010, 12:45:13 PM
Well the arch lector living through a fight with three chaos characters is pretty unlikely, so I wouldn't count on it happening too many times.  But the point still stands, in many cases, generals are very rarely capable of killing another.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Aldaris on October 13, 2010, 12:54:41 PM
Well the arch lector living through a fight with three chaos characters is pretty unlikely...
Phil
he doesn't need to. He just needs to stomp one convincingly in a challenge and then run the lot down when they fail their break test. If it doesn't work on the first one, it might very well on the second. AL with 1+ AS 4+ Ward, van Horstmanns and Life Magic to heal him and the Altar (plus prayers) is as nasty as ever in challenges. ESPECIALLY against chaos characters with their insane stats.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 13, 2010, 12:58:33 PM
 :engel:

yes 5 S7 attacks with hatred made short work of the fighty character the Ws7 came in handy too also those Chaos guys HAVE to accept a challenge.....it is so much fun.

 :happy:

I think I will move away from the armour of meteoric iron though and give him something else perhaps that one that forces re rolls to wound.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Aldaris on October 13, 2010, 01:02:36 PM
Hmm. Not too sure if I'm overly fond of that. AoMI is still pretty much the best armor you can get for those points in my opinion, so unless you really need it for someone else I'd leave it to him. Especially if you wanna use a great weapon and therefore only will get a 3+ AS on your altar.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 13, 2010, 01:06:32 PM
It would leave the armour of meteoric iron for the bsb.....hmmm but well I liked him with the crown of command too.

 :Ohmy:

I just realize I forgot to use my lucky shield in the tournament.... I would have received only one wound....survived the challenge....won that battle....won the tournament.

 :icon_cry:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Aldaris on October 13, 2010, 01:10:41 PM
Nah, you wouldn't. Perhaps the battle.  :-D

You'd still have needed to beat my 18-2 20-0 to win the tournament.
 :happy:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 13, 2010, 01:14:18 PM
I am only 7 points behind you and I lost only that game 15-5 if I would have won it 15-5 in my favour instead I would have won.....*perhaps* still stupid me forgetting to use my magic items.


If you kit your characters to excel in a challenge you can take down enemies, the only guy I think is close to being untouchable is the dark elf lord with 1+ save, reverse ward save and crown of command....he is near unkillable. On the other hand 5 crossbowmen kept him in close combat for 2 phases.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Aldaris on October 13, 2010, 01:18:56 PM
still stupid me forgetting to use my magic items.
At least this time around I didn't forget to launch my Doomrocket. I am very prone to that normally.

By the way, that second guy I played, the VC player (was he the one from Liechtenstein?) took photos and said he wanted to do a battle report. Do you know where I could find that one?

EDIT: found it. I have linked it in the Skaven thread. It is in German, but has pictures that illustrate the flow of the battle well for those not understanding it.
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=27838.msg556568#msg556568 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=27838.msg556568#msg556568)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Warlord on October 13, 2010, 03:18:25 PM
And you call yourself Warlord...  ;p

Thats because I want my characters to kill bodies, not be stuck in a slo-motion dance with another character doing only glancing blows off each other.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Siberius on October 14, 2010, 12:12:49 PM
Where's everyone's sense of Hollywood huh? The generals are always supposed to find each other and be engaged in mortal combat until one of them declares that they can't be killed. Then they are promptly killed, everything goes into slow motion whilst the rest of the cambatants stare in awe and then the battle is over. Much kissing of a close-by maiden ensues.

Everyone lives happily ever after.

The End.

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Aldaris on October 14, 2010, 12:58:57 PM
Except for when an Assassin finds the general. But I suppose that's very Hollywood too. Ninja stabbity-stab for the win.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 14, 2010, 01:05:54 PM
My characters always die in the challanges (except the AL) so does this mean I am the hollywood bad guy?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Siberius on October 14, 2010, 01:48:17 PM
I am afraid so.

You are the Alan Rickman of Warhammer.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Aldaris on October 14, 2010, 01:54:05 PM
Which means that you're a bad guy way more awesome than the hero.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: phillyt on October 14, 2010, 03:45:54 PM
Well challenges with him are fine, but only really work on chaos characters. Everything else will just hit the altar. The have to challenge him.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Mini battle report vs Lizards
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 14, 2010, 06:28:22 PM
Alan Rickman is awesome....especially in Galaxy Quest.

So I am contend....yes other than in a challenge the War Altar is just a great tarpit and not very killy.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 16, 2010, 12:22:16 AM
Hey all.  I just finished painting my 9 model minotaur bus unit.  The new doombull looked better than I initially though once I got my hands on him.  I did a fair paint on him, maybe 10 hours.  Not a huge amount but a decent quality.

I did a little conversion work.  The fur on his legs was used to break up the model a little.  My heroes and champions are mostly all warpaint, with the fur breaking the monotony.  With him it looked odd without it so I greenstuffed it on.  Made the model pop a little.  I may blood up the axe when I do the basing work.

Nest is my Avatars of war beastlord with heave head conversion and the 28 bestigor models I need for my unit.  After that the army is effectively complete.

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2010-10-15_17-25-10_993.jpg)
(http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2010-10-15_17-25-23_384.jpg)
(http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2010-10-15_17-24-32_987.jpg)
(http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2010-10-15_17-24-48_568.jpg)
(http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2010-10-15_17-24-58_301.jpg)

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 16, 2010, 01:05:19 AM
Took me a moment to work out that it was warpaint. It's cool though, I really like the golden eyes.


On a sidenote, anyone happen to have a spare shaggoth lying around that they feel like selling before I start on a major giant creating project...?

I ask because I'm not finding any good deals on them out there and I still kind of like the idea.

Assuming no one has one, does anyone with both the new giant and some new minotaurs know how the mino heads compare to the giant head, size wise... you can probably see where my thinking is going here... I just don't like the giant as is, even with the 'chaos' attachments he will stick out like a sore thumb in my otherwise very samey army. He needs beasting up, especially if he is to become a ghorgon. I'm thinkin with  the head swap, some additional horns, some muscling up of his torso and some shaggy fur added on, oh and possibly a couple of tyranid style giant pincers, he should really look the part... that's my current scheming...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 16, 2010, 02:19:34 AM
The minotaur heads are too small.

As for the war paint they are based on african tribesmen. They match the over 100 plus for and minotuar.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 16, 2010, 08:39:28 PM
The minotaur heads are too small.

Even if I kind of greenstuff furred it up and into the neck?

I ask because it looks like the giant head is already kind small. I hope that by giving him a furry "neck" that kind of mane-d up in size with maybe some additional big horns on there, I might get away with it, but I really haven't seen the minos or the giant out of the box in real life sadly.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 16, 2010, 10:03:34 PM
I am heading to a wedding. But when i get home i will take a couple pictures for you. In my opinion all the fur in the world wont fix it!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 16, 2010, 11:01:14 PM
Hehe, thanks, that'd certainly put my mind at rest.  :icon_twisted:

Have fun, but try not to defile too much.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on October 17, 2010, 12:10:45 AM
Let's hope for the soon-to-be-married couple that GrillyP isn't coming along for the ride. He may be busy destroying America, but can he ever be too busy?
 :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 17, 2010, 02:41:47 AM
Here you go.  This is the Minotaur champion model, with the largest head and horns in the kit.  As you can see the head is smaller than the giants head, which is itself too small for the body really.  I have included images of the minotaur on a set of bottles to make comparison easier, as well as a few size comparisons with a 5th edition ungor and a 6th edition gor standard bearer.

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2010-10-16_20-08-24_52.jpg)
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2010-10-16_20-07-22_795.jpg)
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2010-10-16_20-07-58_908.jpg)
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2010-10-16_20-06-51_459.jpg)
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2010-10-16_20-07-12_795.jpg)

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on October 17, 2010, 10:43:13 AM
Very nice paintjobs Phil!

I finally got my hands on more beastmen infantry and get to serious 8th ed list building. Some questions to themore experiencd beasts:

I'd like to try a ungor horde with a beast banner BSB. Strength four, potential hatred every round is nice. Comparable to halberdiers with WP but they can keep the hate even afer the first round.
I wonder f it is viable to give them spears? Could be a fourth rank attacking, but one would need at least 50 ungor, better 60 to profit from spears. And the spears would then be 50 points more to spend.

Another thing that sounds good would be a beast lord in a unit of bestigor with the +1 ld banner. Ld10 for primal fury all around! The drawback is that this costs cose to 600 points and the bestgor don't really need a killy beastlord, he'd better support a lock of gor...

Roughly, i'd like in 2500 points:

Beastlord
Lvl4 (Shadow)
BSB
Lvl1 (Beasts)

Ungor horde
Gor block 25-30
Bestigor block 20-25
2-3 chariots
5-6 Minotaur (Greatweapons?)
1 Razorgor
1Razorgor
small unit of scouting harpies
Ghorgon

that probably is at least 2500 points already, i'd like to have some more warmachine hunters and another unit of gor though...


Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 17, 2010, 11:37:47 AM
Thanks for the quick work there Philly, that's exactly what I needed to see!  :happy:

Hmm.... choices choices....
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 17, 2010, 06:34:11 PM
Thank you boys.  Do you see what i was talking about concerning the head size? The head would be crazy small. What I would try is putting a toy bull head on the giant.  You can get those at a few places.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 18, 2010, 02:12:30 AM
Yeh, I'm giving up on that idea.

I had pretty much given into despair when I had a sudden inspiration and now I think I have a plan forming that can work...

I shall keep it a closely guarded secret until fruition though...

I just hope it really is the answer because I've been seriously scouring the net for a decent ghorgon...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 19, 2010, 10:08:56 AM
Just oredered the various bits of my ghorgon/giant as well as something I hope to use as a jabberslythe for now...

Now the hopeful wait and fingers crossed that I can get it all put together right and it fits...

We have another escalation league starting this week I think, and after my recent narrow victory with the beasts I am eager to give them another shot under 8th rules. The ghorgon will be my secret weapon when we get up in points...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 19, 2010, 11:49:39 AM
You should start learning your evil mastermind "HA!" for the moment you reveal it.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 19, 2010, 05:53:48 PM
Moxer I like most of your list but would like to point out I don't like single razors. Also, I no longer use my gorgon. Minotuar and bestigor are to good.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on October 19, 2010, 07:49:07 PM
I haven't played much beastmen yet, but when i did thesingle razors were good. They can support, a bit like a chariot, but with the advantage of being able to march.
They can get around the flanks and thus provide a flanking bonus, they can charge in with the minos and catch the fleeing enemy or even go and hunt warmachines. Plus they are pretty tough and still cheap.
Someday i have to try a real unit of 4-6 of them, but now single ones fill a nice role...theoretically.

I am thinking about beastlord equipment and have comeup with several options:

Heavy armour, GW,  18
Ramhorn helm 15
Gnarled hide 15
dawnstone 25
other tricksters shard 15
many-limbed fiend 20
------253 points a good allrounder to slaughter tons of rank and file, kill monsters or even characters. Has no wardsave though, so he shoud avoid things with lots of attacks str5 or higher

GW, 12
Armour of fate 50
Gnarled hide 15
Crown of command 35
--------257 points, stubborn and str. 7

Armour of fate 50
dawnstone 25
gnarled hide 15
biting blade 10
shield 3
------------248 points, heavy protection, but not so good offensive potential

Armour of fate 50
shield 3
sword of +2 attacks 40
uncanny senses 5
-------------243 points, OK protection, good attacks to slaughter R&F. Plus he has no gnarled hide, leaving that one to the BSB wih beast banner.

Armour of fate 50
Steel claws 35
other tricksters shard 15
-----------------245, not so well protected, good vs. R&F


I like the first one best, however i would really like to give the gnarled hide to my BSB! What do you think?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 19, 2010, 09:11:45 PM
I know the ghorgon will most likely fall flat on it's face when I use it, but there's something to be said for scaring the pants off your enemies when you plonk down a giant fearsome looking mini. Cackling practice in progress. Alas it won't take long for them to realise he's actually pretty easy to kill.

But till that point, I shall be  :icon_twisted:.



Plus I don't have any bestigors. And it'll be a long time if ever before I do, alas...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 20, 2010, 12:18:18 AM
You know it isn't that he isn't good,  because he is. The issue is that he competes with both minotaur and bestigor. They are a blast too.

My favorite beastlord build is:
Gnarled hide
Armor of fate
Great weapon or cleaver

Cheap and deadly.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 20, 2010, 01:56:30 AM
The problem seems to me that he is awfully large and rather fragile... especially to poison missiles which I face a lot round here...

One bad skink shooting phase and he is half dead already...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 20, 2010, 02:48:21 AM
On the plus side if you are facing that many skink then you should have no trouble pounding the lizards. The only thing that is afraid of them is the gorgon.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on October 20, 2010, 08:29:13 AM
Say, that painting ain't bad.

Even with the crappy photo they look sweet.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 21, 2010, 05:51:12 PM
Yeah those were taken with a cell phone so they aren't the best. But thank you for the compliment. I am posting my avatars of war beast lord. Tonight.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 21, 2010, 11:56:23 PM
I'm enjoying the fact that we beasties are somewhat back in business recently after a really rather quiet spell back there.

I'm afraid you can expect small reports of my league battles too where you will undoubtedly be pulling your hair out at not only my odd army lists and points wasting ways, but my ridiculous tactics.

You have been warned.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 22, 2010, 02:38:57 AM
I can't wait!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on October 22, 2010, 02:49:24 AM
Yeah those were taken with a cell phone so they aren't the best. But thank you for the compliment. I am posting my avatars of war beast lord. Tonight.

I can't wait!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on October 22, 2010, 08:40:40 AM
And i am eager to paint, but can't, because my hand is messed up. Grrrr!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on October 22, 2010, 11:18:39 AM
Killed my Bretonnia project and is looking to complement my Ogres and Black Legion with either Empire or a restart with Beastmen (lovely models).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 23, 2010, 01:20:05 AM
Picture time
Ungor

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Ungor1.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Ungor2.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Ungor3.jpg)

 MinotaurBus

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Minobus1.jpg)

Avatar of war beastlord
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Beastlord1-1.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Beastlord5jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Beastlord4.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Beastlord6.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Beastlord3-1.jpg)

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/Beastlord2-1.jpg)

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on October 23, 2010, 02:57:12 AM
Those are pretty damn nice. You seriously need to show up at the next Eurobash to show them off.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 23, 2010, 10:02:48 AM
All those ungor together like that, it really is a thing of beauty...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on October 23, 2010, 11:04:44 AM
I especially like how they all have shields, even though Philly has always spoken out against shields.

Also, your general needs to be officially named GrillyP.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 23, 2010, 01:00:40 PM
Thanks guys. The ungor were fun. They were a long project with most being completed years ago but then rebased. Cannon, I have no choice with shields now. They come standard!

Look up the original avatar model sometime. The beastlord is the only one I have ever been disappointed with. I hated the head. The mane and horns match pretty well and it was a bodgy putty job.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on October 23, 2010, 01:28:23 PM
That Ungor unit is hardcore to the bone!  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 24, 2010, 12:32:17 PM
Fear the Horde! great army  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: patsy02 on October 24, 2010, 01:04:32 PM
This is totally awesome. However, you should redo the blood on the beastlord's weapon.

I especially like how they all have shields, even though Philly has always spoken out against shields.
And the horde formation ;)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 24, 2010, 01:58:25 PM
There is a lot of blood. And the right units in a horde can work really well.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on October 25, 2010, 12:25:44 AM
I especially like how your Beastlord is like: "Hey guys! Look at my sword! Look! Look how big it is! HAHA, it's AWESOME!"
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: patsy02 on October 25, 2010, 02:19:26 AM
"But oh no! Someone spilt jam all over it!"
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 25, 2010, 11:52:26 AM
hmmmm strawberry jam...guys lets go and get a taste of it.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on October 25, 2010, 03:43:53 PM
I just stumbled upon this:

Will models killed by the slugskin of a shaman with the jagged dagger be set aside as power dice? Looks like they would...

I wrote up a list, what do you think about it? It has too few units for my taste and too expensive units, too. But that's 8th edition, i guess. And i don't know where to put the lvl2. Maybe right next to the BSB in the ungor horde. Are the unit sizes good? I ponder wether the ungor-spear horde is big enough. Could make the bestigor unit smaller, but i like it that big, this way i am less likely to loose them all.


253 Beastlord Heavy armour, GW,Ramhorn helm, Gnarled hide,

dawnstone, other tricksters shard, many-limbed fiend

334 Lvl4, 4+ ward, slugskin, jagged dagger, ahw , shadow

181 BSB, ha, shield, beastbanner

135 lvl2, scroll, beasts

315 50 ungor, spears, FC (BSB here)

265 30 Gor, AHW, FC (lvl 4 here)

362 26 Bestigor FC, leadershipbanner, ironcurse icon (Lord here)
160 2 chariots
315 5 Minotaur Greatweapons
55 1 Razorgor
55 1 Razorgor
70 5 scouting harpies
-------------------
2500
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 25, 2010, 04:09:16 PM
Yes they do but no it is not worth using. Doesn't kill enough. Extra arm and additional hand weapon are the way to go.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on October 25, 2010, 04:16:29 PM
Edited in a list. The shaman with the dagger has an AHW, but the extra limb is taken by the beastlord already
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 25, 2010, 05:14:10 PM
I don't take it on the lord since it won't benefit from his gear.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on October 26, 2010, 08:22:09 AM
I could give the many limbs to the Lvl4, scrap the slugskin ( i thought it ignores armour, but it doesn't. Not good then) and use the 30 points to get another 5 ungor. Or i use some other setup for the beastlord. He will be in the unit of bestigor, who already have high strength, so he doesn't really need a GW that bad. Maybe give him the steel claws, but then i can't use the shard any more.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 26, 2010, 01:40:10 PM
Just say no to steel claws! I don't under stand why people are so hung up on those things. Keep if you take them you must also take gouge tusk. Even then the cleaver is the better choice. It well give more attacks on average. I just use the old great weapon.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Scarr Gunliner on October 30, 2010, 01:07:26 AM
why not make a nice conversion of it :biggriin:

scarr
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on October 31, 2010, 03:52:14 PM
Well, first game of the campaign yesterday vs Empire. 1000 pts dawn attack.

We both had our deployment screwed somewhat by the set up conditions. My minos started on the far left behind a river. Not useful and it meant they could get no real support. So whilst they pulled off an amazing charge on the spears flank, killing 12 in one go, they pursued one inch and it was all for naught. They spent the rest of the game wading through the river getting shot down by the cannon. My gors never got into combat, fleeing from shooting casualties which put them too far away to make contact before we had to stop.

In the end alas I got 25 measly points for capturing the spearmen's standard and that was it. I had depleted most of his units but even though some were fleeing, they got me no points. I learnt a valuable lesson and it even made me wonder about some lighter faster units for finishing off duties...

Good fun though. My chariot rocked, the one I managed to get into combat. I am thinking that Minos pretty much need something supporting them like a chariot at all times because their inabiulity to pursue means that all that damage is oft wasted. They need something with them that can mow things down and if it weren't for that pesky river they'd have had it too...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 31, 2010, 05:09:17 PM
Why did they need to waste time in the river?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on November 01, 2010, 02:16:25 AM
Why did they need to waste time in the river?

Perhaps there was no nearby crossing?
How wide was this river?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 01, 2010, 08:43:52 PM
Pretty wide and you can't march in it. Pretty much the worst part of the board I could have rolled for them. I was lucky there was something in charge range and we decided that I had equiped all my beasts with flippers as I failed very very few dangerous terrain tests.  :-P
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on November 01, 2010, 10:44:00 PM
Well nothing in the beat army takes dangerous terrain tests. but it shouldn't take more than two turns to cross any terrain at 6 inches.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 02, 2010, 12:06:22 AM
I am looking at the rules and have no idea why we were treating it as dangerous terrain. I think it's cos I was checking my chariots before the battle and somehow forgot that it was just them that treated it as such. Weird.

But to explain why crossing the river was hard really needs a diagram...


-------------------------------
I     S {   E                        I
I        }                             I
I        {                             I
I ~ ~~                             I
I___M_______________I

So the squigly lines are the river. My minotaurs are forced to set up behind it in my left corner. Meanwhile his spears advance diagonally through it. In trying to move towards his spears I had to move up through it a lot, especially with not wanting to present a flank to his cannon which is situated with his other missile fire at 'E'. Hence I spent a lot of time moving up through the river. Pursuing into it 1" didn't help matters either.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 06, 2010, 09:36:36 AM
2nd battle yesterday. For lack of other opponents at the right time I took on Empire again. I took more to heart the victory conditions this time too and built my list to be a tad more durable. In the end, that worked out really well for me, but it really was touch and go.

I was facing:

60 Spears
10 Handgunners
2 Cannons
Mortar
Helblaster
GoTE
L1 Wizard
Engineer

He managed to castle up in a corner entirely surrounded by a necrotic ooze river... which was unfortunate as it meant my whole army had to wade through to reach him and this river really was dangerous terrain for all!


I took:

Beastlord
BSB
23 Gors with those two inside
25 Ungors
3 Minos: GW
5 Scout Harpies
Razorgor
Razorgor
Chariot
Chariot


So it was a case of could I make it across the board somewhat intact and with a black of 60 Spears to defeat, could I inflict enough damage even if I did!? The first few turns were unsurprisingly messy with my minos being blown away before they crossed the river along with a chariot and the back couple of ranks of gors. My razorgors both suffered wounds on their way. The harpies paid for themselves instantly by taking down one of the cannons which was stranded on the other side of the board, for crossfire purposes.

In the end, I made it across the river and charged my Gors at the Handgunners who fled the table allowing me to hit the Spears instead. I didn't fancy my chances with only about 14 Gors left, but in the charge turn alone I took down 12 Spears (Philly, you'll be pleased to know my champ took the challenge from his general, got splattered but left my characters to do some serious damage on the unit!). With steadfast it was not enough to break them, but they'd have been on snake eyes otherwise.

Alas the combat began to turn his way as his sheer number of attacks whittled me down and in the last turn (turn 4) he wiped out the rest of my general's unit. Thankfully by this time the ungors managed to charge across the river into the spear's flank and my general who had needed to accept the challenge managed to drop the GoTE and so it was that he needed snake eyes to stay on the board.... he rolled a 3 *mop brow* and fled the field as my razorgors and harpies finished eating up the war machines and engineer.

Very satisfying but worryingly close battle. It was really fun and felt like how Beasts VS Empire should be. The beasts running ever on regardless of the horrendous casualties and eventually overwhelming the humans with sheer ferocity, though had my ungors failed that last charge it would have been me on rerollable snake eyes. Toughness 5 kept both my characters alive under huge pressure but had he taken a ST boosting sword instead I could have been in trouble.

Gors once again prove their worth as did the lone hunting razorgors. The minos I suppose at least drew a lot of war machine fire, especially when he found out my gors had the 6+ ward against war machines. The L1 wizard was unable to be effective. A level 2 would have caused a lot more problems.

Oh and ungors charging into save the day? Doesn't get better than that!!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on November 06, 2010, 12:54:05 PM
Castling behind that river is no fun for the beasts! Sounds like a tough game, with a lot of bloodshed, just the way it should be!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 07, 2010, 01:04:23 PM
Ai. At first I feared I stood no chance. Afterall he's got some hefty artillery and a huge block of spears if I make it there.

I think what helped in the end though was that his level 1 wizard was the wrong character choice. A level two would have really exploited my lack of wizard whereas I only had one spell to worry about each turn. Not too hard to throw all my dice at. A warrior priest for hatred would have been a better choice too. The huge volume of attacks would have killed me very fast. Even a BSB to reroll any potential unfortunate LD rolls would have helped.

And in the end I think the horde formation was worse than actually adding a bunch more ranks so that he was always guaranteed stubborn. Cos once my ungors flooded in with their 3 or 4 remaining ranks, he lost all his LD in one foul swoop and that was it.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 11, 2010, 09:03:37 AM
I just accidentally picked up 20 Bestigors for $43 on ebay....

I guess I will get to try them out after all.  8-) :evil:

Though not before this league is over. Still, I have my Jabber to inflict upon people in this.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on November 11, 2010, 11:26:26 AM
New ones or old ones?
I fancy the old bestigor models, except for the fact that they are too small in comparison.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 11, 2010, 04:12:07 PM
New ones. I liked the old ones too, but the new ones also rock.

The great thing is with 20, I'll have enough for a 6x3 unit and then a couple left over for some funky new characters.

I never expected I'd win the auction as it was still roughly half the retail price and these are still on sprue and everything.  :happy:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 12, 2010, 09:17:54 AM
1500pts Watchtower vs Empire yesterday.

Pretty easy plan, slam my minos into the tower first for some serious casualties. Follow up with my gors with stubborn Lord and BSB to finish up and take up residence. Once they were in there, nothing was getting me out.

Think I prefer a random game. It's kinda easy  to set up a specific force otherwise. Still, it was a pleasure as always to see the gors in action.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on November 12, 2010, 11:30:15 AM
It is the randomness that has this edition kicking for me.

Different scenarios, different terrain, and different set-up (due to the two former).

On a side note, I canned all armies I had in mind to start, beasts included, and went with WoC - got four LE minis off ebay yesterday.

LET THE CHEESE FEAST BEGIN!!!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on November 12, 2010, 01:32:25 PM
If you want cheese play Skaven or Empire.

No warmachines? No Martini George.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on November 12, 2010, 01:39:40 PM
3 x them chaos stuntie thingie!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on November 12, 2010, 01:54:36 PM
Touche, that beastie is also a monster in close combat well lucky for me most chaos players deny the hellcannon because they think Warriors of chaos is about close combat close combat and some close combat.

I myself forget that there is something in the list that is acting in the shooting phase (even though it is pretty expensive for what it does)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 12, 2010, 10:29:03 PM
It is the randomness that has this edition kicking for me.


Totally agree. I need to persuade my LGS that it is more fun not knowing which scenario we'll be playing. That way people are less likely to bring silly armies... and if they do, hopefully they'll get a scenario that'll make them pay!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on November 13, 2010, 01:27:17 PM
Touche, that beastie is also a monster in close combat well lucky for me most chaos players deny the hellcannon because they think Warriors of chaos is about close combat close combat and some close combat.

They are, but much like Ogres people think these machines will have no impact on the outcome - that is except the Empire players in our group who these days fear Scraplaunchers and Hellcannons more than anything (as do the HE).

Totally agree. I need to persuade my LGS that it is more fun not knowing which scenario we'll be playing. That way people are less likely to bring silly armies... and if they do, hopefully they'll get a scenario that'll make them pay!

Do you also decide terrain prehand? I mean that if anything will have a major impact on several armies - Beastmen for one if the area of an Empire player is crowded with buildings, fences and hills (or not).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Warlord on November 15, 2010, 12:40:35 AM
Do you also decide terrain prehand? I mean that if anything will have a major impact on several armies - Beastmen for one if the area of an Empire player is crowded with buildings, fences and hills (or not).

Who does that? Just play with the army you decide, and let the terrain lay where it falls!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 15, 2010, 01:05:21 AM
No, terrain we are currently setting up as per the rules. Which frankly has made for some outrageous amounts of mystic terrain, but hey, makes some interesting things to think about. Especially the necrotic ooze I had to cross a couple of games ago with my entire army...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on November 15, 2010, 11:16:22 AM
Or a cathredral in the center of a pass that makes all Saurus warriors in 6 inch stubborn  :engel:

I like 8th edition.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on November 15, 2010, 12:21:58 PM
Who does that? Just play with the army you decide, and let the terrain lay where it falls!

For the sake of the spirit of the game, let's hope no one.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 15, 2010, 11:14:45 PM
Oh I forgot, it was the first outing for my jabberslythe too...

Didn't get a lot of action, but held up and eventually destroyed a unit of knights. His toughness 5 proved to be quite nifty against an imperial army and I used the watchtower itself to block LoS to the warmachines. His madness thing was little good as all the units were rolling on GoTE ld with BSB rerolls. Bah! Until I get my bestigors and ghorgon up and running though, he will give opponents something different to think about.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on November 16, 2010, 01:21:37 AM
Why did they need to waste time in the river?

I know I am late on this, but I just wanted to say:

meh.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on November 21, 2010, 11:47:33 AM
Miss Painting Group has released a rather good looking Gorgon - their former Cygor was quite cool (I bought one) and decently sculpted.

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Other/beastmen_ghorgons_1_2.jpg)

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Other/beastmen_ghorgons_1_5.jpg)

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Other/beastmen_ghorgons_1_6.jpg)

And yes it is expensive as hell.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 21, 2010, 12:11:46 PM
Seen that guy, he's very cool. But the price was enough to make me try something else out... I have the pieces and just need to get up the courage to tackle it. Gonna be quite the job...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on November 21, 2010, 12:13:21 PM
I saw this Jabberslythe that was decent over at Maelstrom Games but their Gorgon and Cygor sucked.

I am tempted once again...  :eusa_wall:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 21, 2010, 12:37:14 PM
I just got the bestigors I ordered in the mail. Beasts really have a beautiful army these days.  :evil:

I bet you could paint up that ghorgon model something wonderful too eh?  :wink:


EDIT


On a side note, I was thinking about a problem I had yesterday, I only have one unit of 24 gors,

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/24Gors.jpg)

which is a goodly size for them, but they have been performing so well as of late, I'd kinda like to be able to take two units... as it happened, the solution to my problem in the short term is actually going to solve another problem I've been having, which is not having much use for my 20 warhounds due to their extreme liking of dieing these days. So, put my two problems together and voila, a use for the hounds and 2 units of 24 Gors!  :happy:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/48Gors.jpg)

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on November 22, 2010, 06:16:42 AM
That's a good idea and the hounds blend in well. I think will copy this idea, for when i need more than 50 Gor...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on November 23, 2010, 02:22:16 PM
I like that ghorgon, though a heap of minotaur its always better.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on November 27, 2010, 07:10:05 AM
Going to play beasties for the first time in months and months. Here's my list! It's supposed to be fun and allow me to use a bunch of minotaurs.

2500pt Beastmen Roster
(2499pts Total)

Beastlord (251pts)
Heavy Armour (6pts), Sword of Bloodshed (60pts), Talisman of Endurance (30pts), Uncanny Senses (10pts)

Bray-Shaman (75pts)
Wizard Level 1

Bray-Shaman (75pts)
Wizard Level 1

Gorebull (218pts)
Axes of Khorgor (40pts), Heavy armour (8pts), Uncanny Senses (10pts)

Wargor (206pts)
Battle Standard Bearer (25pts), Gnarled Hide (15pts), Heavy armour (4pts), Shield (2pts), The Beat Banner (75pts)


Gor Herd (284pts)
Foe-render (10pts), 37x Gor (259pts), Musician (5pts), Standard Bearer (10pts)

Gor Herd (284pts)
Foe-render (10pts), 37x Gor (259pts), Musician (5pts), Standard Bearer (10pts)

Tuskgor Chariot (80pts)

Tuskgor Chariot (80pts)

Tuskgor Chariot (80pts)

Harpies (110pts)
10x Harpies (110pts)

Minotaurs (378pts)
6x Minotaurs (378pts)
6x Great weapon (48pts)

Minotaurs (378pts)
6x Minotaurs (378pts)
6x Great weapon (48pts)


The general idea is to try and get Wyssan's Wildform off on the Gor unit with the beast banner in it, and on the general's unit. The Gorebull can wreak havoc on his own, or with his friends, and I fully expect either the Gors to carry the day because my opponent concentrates on the minos, or the minos to carry the day because my opponent ignored them in favor of killing Gors. The harpies are for warmachine hunting. NO STRATEGY! JUST MINOTAUR SMASH! WARGHLARBLEARGH!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on November 28, 2010, 07:06:36 PM
You used uncanny senses twice.
Try to find the points to upgrade at least one shaman to lvl 2 and give them a scroll or something. You could take only 7 or 8 harpies and loose some Gor to get more points.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on November 28, 2010, 07:26:08 PM
Really no reason not to get a great shaman in th ere. Dump the level ones and add one.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on November 30, 2010, 08:26:32 AM
Really no reason not to get a great shaman in th ere. Dump the level ones and add one.

The idea is to be able to cast Wyssan's Wildform multiple times. Need two mages to do that.

You used uncanny senses twice.
Try to find the points to upgrade at least one shaman to lvl 2 and give them a scroll or something. You could take only 7 or 8 harpies and loose some Gor to get more points.

Stupid brain! I will remove it from the beastlord, since he really doesn't need it. Scroll is a good idea. With the points off uncanny senses and make the gor blocks 36 instead of 37. Put in Dispel Scroll, and all good.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on December 06, 2010, 05:29:31 AM
Rebuilt Beastlord with The Armour of Silvered Steel, Dawn Stone, Gouge Tusks, The Other Trickster's Shard and a great weapon. I will be altering this build, but I really liked it. He was certainly the bane of many a Warriors of Chaos character in my game this week.

Speaking of that game:

Played Warriors of Chaos. Did well, but ultimately lost.

One of my Gor herds sat in the middle of the board and fought Chaos Warriors the entire game. Stupid Rapturous Standard was the only thing that saved him, because my gors were winning combat by 3-4 every turn, and of course had more ranks. I even won combat on the turn that he flank charged me with another hero in a unit of 10 chaos knights. One knight fell to gor attacks, and 3 more fell to my Beastlord hitting back with Strength 9. (I fed the chaos character my unit champion). I eventually killed all but one knight and got his character down to a single wound, and only 4 chaos warriors from the original block of 20 were left, but they never broke because of his amazing dice rolls, and he eventually wore me down. I would not have done nearly as well without Wissan's Wildform, and it would never fail that he would dispel the first casting, and I would get it the second time.

My harpies really only harassed a little. Then died to magic.

My other gor unit tore into his marauders with a vengeance, running them down. And then died to magic.

Dude's Chaos trolls made short work of my minotaurs, because he only failed 4 regen saves the entire game. Trolls with Eye of the Gods rolls get mean real quick. I need to put The Banner of The Eternal Flame into my list somehow.

Chariots died eventually, but they got in on his flank and absorbed a lot of Chaos Warrior attacks.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on December 12, 2010, 07:54:44 PM
Speaking of Chaos warriors, how to beat them?
I will likely fight them on thursday and would like to give the beasts a try. I know he likes his blocks of chaos warriors and his hellcannon, probably also a horde of marauders with greatweapons.

I think i can exploit the "always have to challenge" rule and bring a BSB with beast banner and minimal protection who declines challenges to get safely into the back of the unit.

Bestigor and minotaur with GWs are probably needed to kill those tincans and a beastlord with the tricksters shard to deny tzeentchy Wardsaves is needed too.

Should i take a ghorgon? He's another canopener, but can probably easily be killed by chaoswarriors.

Magic-wise i think i will go for a (scouting!) Lvl4 shadow and a lvl2 beast shaman.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on January 25, 2011, 11:52:58 PM
I was just flicking through my pictures from my little camera and I came across some from a battle that I believe I reported on in this thread, so seeing as how it is beasts, and not only that but Empire, why not put them up for your pleasure.  :-P

Here it is.

2nd battle yesterday. For lack of other opponents at the right time I took on Empire again. I took more to heart the victory conditions this time too and built my list to be a tad more durable. In the end, that worked out really well for me, but it really was touch and go.

I was facing:

60 Spears
10 Handgunners
2 Cannons
Mortar
Helblaster
GoTE
L1 Wizard
Engineer

He managed to castle up in a corner entirely surrounded by a necrotic ooze river... which was unfortunate as it meant my whole army had to wade through to reach him and this river really was dangerous terrain for all!


I took:

Beastlord
BSB
23 Gors with those two inside
25 Ungors
3 Minos: GW
5 Scout Harpies
Razorgor
Razorgor
Chariot
Chariot


So it was a case of could I make it across the board somewhat intact and with a black of 60 Spears to defeat, could I inflict enough damage even if I did!? The first few turns were unsurprisingly messy with my minos being blown away before they crossed the river along with a chariot and the back couple of ranks of gors. My razorgors both suffered wounds on their way. The harpies paid for themselves instantly by taking down one of the cannons which was stranded on the other side of the board, for crossfire purposes.

In the end, I made it across the river and charged my Gors at the Handgunners who fled the table allowing me to hit the Spears instead. I didn't fancy my chances with only about 14 Gors left, but in the charge turn alone I took down 12 Spears (Philly, you'll be pleased to know my champ took the challenge from his general, got splattered but left my characters to do some serious damage on the unit!). With steadfast it was not enough to break them, but they'd have been on snake eyes otherwise.

Alas the combat began to turn his way as his sheer number of attacks whittled me down and in the last turn (turn 4) he wiped out the rest of my general's unit. Thankfully by this time the ungors managed to charge across the river into the spear's flank and my general who had needed to accept the challenge managed to drop the GoTE and so it was that he needed snake eyes to stay on the board.... he rolled a 3 *mop brow* and fled the field as my razorgors and harpies finished eating up the war machines and engineer.

Very satisfying but worryingly close battle. It was really fun and felt like how Beasts VS Empire should be. The beasts running ever on regardless of the horrendous casualties and eventually overwhelming the humans with sheer ferocity, though had my ungors failed that last charge it would have been me on rerollable snake eyes. Toughness 5 kept both my characters alive under huge pressure but had he taken a ST boosting sword instead I could have been in trouble.

Gors once again prove their worth as did the lone hunting razorgors. The minos I suppose at least drew a lot of war machine fire, especially when he found out my gors had the 6+ ward against war machines. The L1 wizard was unable to be effective. A level 2 would have caused a lot more problems.

Oh and ungors charging into save the day? Doesn't get better than that!!



(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/DSC06508.jpg)

Is that a thing of beauty or what? Rank upon rank of state troops... (and Delthos's lovely Pleasant Surprise mortar for Wolfy)




(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/DSC06510.jpg)

Ah the prospect of wading through a river whilst being battered by artillery, tis ever the way of the beast.





(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/DSC06509.jpg)

My lines, ready for the dash through no-man's land. Contrary to usual style, my harpies aren't running for it, but after some stray artillery.





(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/DSC06511.jpg)

Not much of me left at this stage, but never underestimate a few battered and bruised gors... and of course their head-munching warlord...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Delthos on January 26, 2011, 12:48:02 AM
Awesome! Tis a wonderful site to see all of those Emire troops in line. From what I can see The End of the Arguement fits in perfectly with Wolfy's army. Just how much damage did it do to you?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Moxer on January 26, 2011, 09:37:58 AM
That looks nice! I see you used tyranids for harpy conversions, they look awesome! I used those models too and gave them ungor heads. Yours look like the original tyranid heads with added hair, have you got a bigger picture of those?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on January 26, 2011, 06:02:41 PM
I believe I do... *looks*




(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/Harpies.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/warhammer/Harpy.jpg)


The heads, as you can probably see close up, are actually dryad heads. I considered ungor heads too but the dryad ones seemed to fit what I was going for in the end. Plus I had a bunch of them lying around!


EDIT

Delthos, I forget exactly how much damage it did, it was a few months ago now... not to mention that as a beast, when you get pummeled by artillery, one splattery death is much like another.  :wink:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Gneisenau on January 26, 2011, 06:16:33 PM
Excellent conversions, Siberius! :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on January 26, 2011, 09:08:46 PM
Strength four ungor spearmen or gor, through the beast banner, supported by a character.

Buffed to strength 5 with those tells and it rocks.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on February 27, 2011, 07:49:47 PM
Had a 3000 point game versus lizardmen.  I won by 2900!  Battle report to follow.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: Where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on February 27, 2011, 09:57:39 PM
Alright, just finished a game between Lizardmen and Beastmen.  Here is my list:

Characters:

Beastlord - Armor of destiny, gnarled hide, great weapon
Bray shaman - 2nd level, dispel scroll
Gorebull - Great Weapon, armor of fortune
Doombull - Axes of Korgor, Talisman of preservation, ram horn helm
Wargor - BSB, Beast banner, great weapon, heavy armor

Troops:

34 gor - full command, additional hand weapons - BSB, shaman
60 ungor - full command, spears
3 chariots

Special:

26 Bestigor - full command, banner of eternal flame - Beastlord
5 Minotaur, musician, great weapon - Gorebull unit
5 Minotaur, musician, additional hand weapons - Doom bull unit

Lizard men - Gist list

Characters:

Slann mage, tooled up with plenty of magic - loremaster, cupped hands, life magic
Hero Saurus - gw, armor that gives +1 T
Hero Saurus - gw, not sure what else but he had magic items
Skink Chief on Ancient Stegadon - spear that made additional impact hits and counted as a lance

Troop:

25 Saurus - full command, Saurus hero
25 Saurus - full command, Saurus hero
Skink herd - 16 skink 2 kroxigor

Special:

6 chameleon skink
6 chameleon skink
20 temple guard
2 salamanders
2 salamanders

Rare - Stegadon ancient

Here is the deployment:  We got the deployment where you are in the canyon so it was the short board edges.

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2011-02-27_11-07-11_905.jpg)

This has both armies deployed.

Here is mine:

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2011-02-27_11-07-20_331.jpg)

Here is his:

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2011-02-27_11-07-26_869.jpg)

As you can see from left to right my deployment are Minotaur, ungor, a chariot, gor, bestigor, Minotaur, and two chariots.

His was left to right, skink, Saurus, salamander, Saurus, ancient with skink, temple guard, ancient, and salamander.  He deployed his chameleon in the manor and the church.  The church was the Acropolis of Heroes but it never really mattered.

Turn 1:  I got first turn.  Moved ahead, got the wild form off on the ungor.  The Minotaur in the woods on my far side lost 4 wounds to the evil woods!  The other woods were normal.

Lizard men:  The salamander on my far flank moved to the flank and killed 6 ungor.  The other

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2011-02-27_11-45-42_25.jpg)

Turn 2:  I got the charges off, first I charged the ungor into the building with the chameleon skink in it.  The gor charged the manor with the other chameleon skink in it.  The bestigor charged the salamander who fled and redirected into the Saurus, minotaur charged the skink unit, other minotaur charged the salamanders.  Gor charged the building with the chameleon in it and the ungor did the same on the other side.

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2011-02-27_11-57-20_808.jpg)

Combat: The minotaur killed the skink unit down to the single skink.  It fled.  The bestigor killed 11 Saurus and didn't catch them.  The gor killed the chameleon and reformed to face the inside of the map.  The ungor only killed 5 chameleon and bounced back out.  Not good.  The Minotaur on the other side murdered the salamander completely.

Lizard men:  He rallied the Saurus but failed to rally the salamander.  The Saurus and Stegadon in the middle charged the gor who failed their terror test and fled.  The Stegadon on the other side charged the Minotaur.  Magic phase wasn't bad.  Low magic for the Slann, who got throne off, then got the toughness boost spell countered.

Combat:  He killed about 30 ungor, who were then run down and killed.  The Stegadon killed a Minotaur but lost all of their skink riders and took a wound on the ancient himself.  They lost combat.

Turn 3:  The gor rallied.  The bestigor again charged the newly rallied Saurus.  The Minotaur moved to the front of the building to threaten the board center.  The chariots redeployed to threaten the middle also.

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2011-02-27_13-15-20_214.jpg)

Combat:  The Bestigor crushed 9 more Saurus off and left only the hero and the champion.  They fled.  The bestigors restrained pursuit and turned back to the rear of the Saurus unit in the middle.  The Minotaur finished off the Stegadon.  They then reformed to face the board center.  The slann unit, Saurus unit, and Stegadon were now quite trapped and surrounded by dangers.

Lizard men:  The Saurus unit backed away from the rallied gor and Minotaur.  The Stegadon turned to face the gor while the slann turned to face the Minotaur, turning their backs on the three chariots which were all quite a ways away.  Again, an uninspired magic phase.  Throne was cast, regeneration spell was dispelled with the scroll, dwellers was dispelled with dice.  The d6 S6 spell hit the Minotaur but only did 3 wounds, one on the Gorebull.

Turn 4:  The bestigor moved to threaten the rear of the Saurus unit.  The Minotaur charged the Saurus, the other Minotaur charged the slann unit along with two out of the three chariots.  The shaman moved into the manor.

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2011-02-27_13-27-40_762.jpg)

Magic:  The shaman failed to cast wild form, but did shoot the amber spear into the lone remaining chameleon and killed it.

Combat:  The Minotaur fighting the temple guard and the two chariots combined for 9 kills from impact hits.  The Minotaur had +4 attacks at that point for a total of 7 each and 8 for the Gorebull.  Thy lost one Minotaur to combat, but killed 7 more temple guard while the chariots finished the rest off.  The slann was no longer stubborn and lost combat.  Being the BSB he died.

The other Minotaur unit killed 19 Saurus with their additional hand weapons.  The unit rolled double ones and suck.

Lizard man:  The ancient flank charged the Minotaur.  It did kill one Minotaur but the Doombull and the Minotaur killed the heroes and Saurus off plus added two kills to the skink in the howdah.  The Stegadon ran 3" and were killed by the Minotaur resulting in a wiped board!

(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/ThePhillyT/2011-02-27_13-51-35_593.jpg)

All in all an inexplicable game.  I can't believe the only thing he finished completely was the ungor.  I expected more offensive output from the Saurus but they were constantly going last.  The slann magic phase was reduced due to poor magic dice and a lack of irresistible force.  I really was pleased with the Doombull or Gorebull.  They and their units were absolutely brutal.  They and the bestigor were unstoppable on the board.  Remarkable.  Chariots didn't do much but did enough!

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Shadowlord on February 28, 2011, 06:57:37 AM
Lizardmen is the army I struggle the most against with my Ogres and I have as best got a draw from the guy playing them here (his Empire OTOH have been eaten more than they have celebrated).

Nice to see you slaughtered those horrible cold reptiles.  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Obi on March 01, 2011, 09:41:56 AM
Nice one Phil! I love those terrain pieces- I wonder who made the houses look so good :engel:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Lord Karnik on March 01, 2011, 04:45:57 PM
was a fun game...... I got spanked badly (do beast spank or maim I am not sure)

was great to get back to fantasy it has been a while.  Was a Wonky game were I played a little poorly but think I have realized many new things with 8th that I did wrong, and that I was not aware of.  Good learning for the lizards..... won't happen again though :evil:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Cannonofdoom on April 14, 2011, 04:30:47 PM
All this herdstone arguments has made me write a new list. Mostly for the express purpose of assassinating a high elf mage with book of Hoeth. I love minotaurs more than is healthy, which is why I have 12. I almost put in a single unit of 12, but thought better of it.

Beastmen (2500pts Total)


Lords
Beastlord (254pts)
Crown of Command (35pts), Heavy Armour (6pts), Shield (3pts), Sword of Might (20pts), Talisman of Preservation (45pts)

Great Bray-Shaman (260pts)
Power Scroll (35pts), Stone of Spite (25pts), Wizard Level 3, Lore of Death

Heroes

Bray-Shaman (95pts)
Hagtree Fetish (20pts), Wizard Level 1, Lore of Beasts (Wildform)

Bray-Shaman (125pts)
Feedback Scroll (50pts), Wizard Level 1, Lore of Beasts (Wildform)

Wargor (206pts)
Battle Standard Bearer (25pts), Gnarled Hide (15pts), Heavy armour (4pts), Shield (2pts), The Beast Banner (75pts)

Core

Gor Herd (305pts)
40x Gor (280pts), Foe-render (10pts), Musician (5pts), Standard Bearer (10pts)

Gor Herd (305pts)
40x Gor (280pts), Foe-render (10pts), Musician (5pts), Standard Bearer (10pts)

10x Ungor Raiders (50pts)

Special

6x Harpies (84pts)
Scout

6x Minotaurs (408pts)
Bloodkine (20pts), Musician (10pts) Great weapons

6x Minotaurs (408pts)
Bloodkine (20pts), Musician (10pts) Great weapons
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Siberius on April 14, 2011, 05:32:23 PM
That looks pretty mean, I like!

No chance of splitting the raiders so you can have that potential little annoying unit pop up behind their war machines/mages? I always can't help myself with that. The potential of them somehow coming on there outweighs the sensibleness that they probably won't...

Plus it can make your opponent a bit worried when he's deploying which is nice.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Cannonofdoom on April 14, 2011, 05:35:48 PM
That looks pretty mean, I like!

No chance of splitting the raiders so you can have that potential little annoying unit pop up behind their war machines/mages? I always can't help myself with that. The potential of them somehow coming on there outweighs the sensibleness that they probably won't...

Plus it can make your opponent a bit worried when he's deploying which is nice.

Well, the idea is to kind of use them to screen from some shooting (hard cover!) and even when I have successfully ambushed them, they have rarely done more than die after ineffectively flailing at whatever they charged.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Siberius on April 14, 2011, 05:43:27 PM
I can relate to that.

My harpies are the true master of combat failure though. With 2 attacks each one might think they'd occasionally win a combat against a light cavalry unit here or a war machine there.

NEVER.

They routinely break from combat with not even a scratch on the opponent. And this is whilst using them in both my beasts and my dark elves.

And yet I still take them, almost every battle.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Cannonofdoom on April 14, 2011, 05:46:31 PM
I can relate to that.

My harpies are the true master of combat failure though. With 2 attacks each one might think they'd occasionally win a combat against a light cavalry unit here or a war machine there.

NEVER.

They routinely break from combat with not even a scratch on the opponent. And this is whilst using them in both my beasts and my dark elves.

And yet I still take them, almost every battle.

Yep. Harpies are great in theory, but they inevitably fail. Oh well, I still need them! To make my opponent shoot at something besides my blocks in turn one at least!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Siberius on April 14, 2011, 07:37:52 PM
Exactly! My opponent always groans when I put them down and with scout they are that much closer to their valuable units...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: phillyt on April 15, 2011, 03:35:49 PM
I don't use harpies and can't see any reason to.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Siberius on April 15, 2011, 05:35:23 PM
Do you ever use raiders?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 07, 2011, 05:13:33 AM
New list for 2500 tournament next Saturday. I'll be running a test of it tomorrow, and let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: phillyt on May 07, 2011, 12:08:36 PM
Do you ever use raiders?

I do not.  I actually run a very straight ahead list.  Lots of minotaur, lots of gor untis, and an ungor horde with some chariots helping.  I have been running nothing but a defensive mage too.  In close combat, it really cannot be stopped.  I think no army in the game can compete with beastmen in CC when you put your mind to it.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Finlay on May 07, 2011, 01:12:07 PM
Do you want any metal spear gors? I have some for sale.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 07, 2011, 01:34:15 PM
Forgot to post the actual list! I'll let you guys know how it works.


2500pt Beastmen Roster

Selections:

* Lords (578pts)

    * Beastlord (248pts)
        Armour of Destiny, Shield, Sword of Strife, Uncanny Senses

    * Great Bray-Shaman (330pts)
        Fencer's Blades, Power Scroll, Stone of Spite, Wizard Level 4

* Heroes (380pts)

    * Bray-Shaman (139pts)
        Additional hand weapon, Hagtree Fetish, Shadow-hide, Wizard Level 2

    * Wargor (241pts)
        Battle Standard Bearer, Gnarled Hide, Gouge-tusks, Heavy armour, Many-limbed Fiend, Shield, The Beast Banner

* Core (660pts)

    * Gor Herd (305pts)
        Foe-render (10pts), 40x Gor (280pts), Musician (5pts), Standard Bearer (10pts)

    * Gor Herd (305pts)
        Foe-render (10pts), 40x Gor (280pts), Musician (5pts), Standard Bearer (10pts)

    * Ungor Raiders (50pts)
        10x Ungor Raiders (50pts)

* Special (882pts)

    * Harpies (126pts)
        * 9x Harpies (126pts)
            9x Scout (27pts)

    * Minotaurs (378pts)
        * 6x Minotaurs (378pts)
            6x Great weapon (48pts)

    * Minotaurs (378pts)
        * 6x Minotaurs (378pts)
            6x Great weapon (48pts)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: New battle report
Post by: Siberius on May 07, 2011, 02:57:21 PM
You know Philly, I'm thinking to start running my beasts more like that too. Though I may still add a couple of units of raiders just so there is the potential one could jump out somewhere nice and annoy my opponent.

But I now have my Bestigor so I am looking forward to using them. Only thing I worry about is that they don't seem to kick out that much more punch than Gors and yet cost a fair bit more and strike last. Aren't they a little vulnerable? Do you sometimes find them being cut down too small before they can get into combat?

I'm wondering about using that item that slows their missile fire for a turn too. On a close combat army, could come in handy. Also the bestial surge on your whole army item sounds nifty. I like the idea of being in charge range very very fast. If you can get first turn and activate the first item, then get lucky and get off the spell too, you might only have to face one shooting phase...

Then again, ,maybe those points should be spent on bumping up the units themselves... ah choices choices...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 07, 2011, 06:57:12 PM
It depends on who you play.  If I was playing against artillary heavy empire, I would horde the raiders.

I adore my bestigor.  they are awesome.  They pump out more damage than anyone else in most cases.  If you get the beast buff on them, they average the 14 S7 attacks, rerollable (always have a general in with them) and they are cranking out 8 - 10 wounds per turn.  Add all those wounds and it is amazing.  Always worth taking 21 to 28 of them in a unit.

Cannon - I like the list but I am bailing on magic for the beasts.  The doombull is unreal in combat.  I run a gorebull, BSB, beastlord, doombull, and a shaman or two in my list.  Add two units of minotaur, 3 chariots, 1 horde of ungor, 1 horde of gor, and 28 bestigor.  Remarkable offensive power.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 07, 2011, 07:52:35 PM
I'm thinking to run 24 of the Bestigor. I have 20 and a number of things I can use to unit fill (centigors... spawn... hounds...).

What's your tactic for keeping your BSB out of trouble? Good save or hiding him somehow?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 07, 2011, 08:03:37 PM
I would run 21 or 28, 7 wide.  Anything less is wasting a wound or two per round. 

As for the BSB, the silver steel 2+ AS is the way I go.  I used to go with the strength buff banner, but he is a little too tender with that in place.  If you do take that one, put him in the horde units and hide him on the edge.  You can place him so only one enemy is in contact with him.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 07, 2011, 09:10:52 PM
Hmm, for some reason I hadn't thought of 21, that makes sense and means no unit filler. I guess if I'm feeling brave I can bump it up to 28, that's only 26 with characters.... so 3 centigors would fill the space nicely.

2+ armour save sounds decent (though not when you're used to Dark Elves and Empire getting a 1+ for 25pts but hey you can't have everything!).

I guess maybe you're using the 4+ ward on your general?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 08, 2011, 12:08:17 AM
I equipe my general with the heavy armor with the ward, the crown of command, and scaly skin gift.  Great weapon of course.  Thats 4 S7 attackswith a 3+ AS and 4+ ward.  Plenty to keep him swinging.  Whatever is in front of he and the bestigor unit won't last long enough to kill him.

Try out the doombull.  Absolutely astounding.  Give him the twin axes of khorgor, the talisman of preservation, and ramhorn helm.  Thats 7 S6 attacks.  Add his S6 stomp and d3 S6 impact hits, then the impact hits from his unit and their awesome attacks and you have a unit mulching machine.  Yes they will lose wounds due to no armor to speak of, but even if his unit gets smashed, he will come ut of it with 10 attacks in most cses since nothing will beat te unit each round.  He gives extra frenzy attacks to the unit.  I run 7 minotaur with him, 4 wide. 

I have been experimenting with a gorbull BSB in the other unit of 7 minotaur.  In both cases, it is an amazing amount of damage that the two can pump out with their unit.

These beastman lists are a blast to play and while I have won every game with them, I must say they are high risk, high reward armies.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 08, 2011, 04:26:38 AM
My list definitely needs work. I got trounced by Daemons, TWICE (though the second time was definitely my dice. A single miscast literally lost me the game). I smashed an Empire army into dust, but that was more because he wanted to go toe to toe in CC with me, which resulted in a 4 turn sweep. I am probably going to take your advice regarding the Doombull, though I will have to stick to the two units of Gor, as that's literally all I have. I don't have a horde of ungor, and I don't have any Bestigor. I will probably run two units of 7 or so minotaurs with AHW, a DB and a GB, and probably lose the beast banner on the BSB. I will come up with something later on and post it here for your perusal.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 08, 2011, 10:27:06 AM
I've always been a bit frightened of frenzy so I've generally avoided doom bulls, but I guess I should bear in mind that redirecting is back so it's not quite such a liability...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 08, 2011, 11:44:13 PM
Really not nearly as bad as it was.  You get the leadership test and should generally be within range for the reroll.

Either way, the frenzy adds the 4 additional attacks for the unit, which will result in 2 point of CR.  You need all you can get to ensure that the unit wins combat each round.  You only need to win once or twice before you will churn out 20+ attacks per turn at S5, S6, or S7.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 09, 2011, 12:05:12 AM
Nothing better than minos rampaging around with 3 extra attacks each  :evil:.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 09, 2011, 10:43:51 AM
I really enjoyed it when my Beastlord with Sword of Strife was able to make use of the Beast of Horros spell. Killed a Great Unclean One by himself.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 10, 2011, 09:48:57 AM
I loved the magic I got from the Beast lore.  The buff alone was well worth using.  But the points were not there.  I will take a doombull everytime over a great shaman.  Of course I jump between the two setups depending on my whim, but the magic is jus not consistant enough in most cases.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 10, 2011, 11:51:30 AM
I loved the magic I got from the Beast lore.  The buff alone was well worth using.  But the points were not there.  I will take a doombull everytime over a great shaman.  Of course I jump between the two setups depending on my whim, but the magic is jus not consistant enough in most cases.

Phil

I'm coming around to that point of view.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 11, 2011, 06:58:12 AM
What do you think of this character loadout?

Beastlord (254pts)
Armour of Destiny, Crown of Command, Gold Sigil Sword, Heavy Armour, Shield

Doombull (335pts)
Axes of Khorgor, Dragonbane Gem, Potion of Speed, Trollhide

Bray-Shaman (160pts)
Feedback Scroll, Wizard Level 2

Gorebull (222pts)
Gouge-tusks , Heavy armour, Shield, Sword of Swift Slaying, Uncanny Senses

Wargor (166pts)
Battle Standard Bearer, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, Gnarled Hide, Heavy armour, Shield

I also considered putting the Armor of Destiny on my BSB, and giving my Beastlord the Dawnstone, Gnarled Hide, and Ramhorn Helm. St5 is not that impressive though for those bonus attacks.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: anvalous on May 11, 2011, 06:41:54 PM
I'll chime in, for once... I play beasts some - more with my growing lion army.  Yeah.

@ Cannon - I would probably swap the Trollhide for the Talisman of Preservation on the Doombull.  I'd much rather have the ward over regen, even with the dragonbane.  You're spending 55 points for regen and light armor.  I'd rather just go with the 4++ for 45 and spend the couple extra points on heavy armor.

I am also not a huge fan of the feedback scroll.  It can be helpful, but on average you're doing 2 wounds when someone throws 6 dice.  Nice to toss when someone IF's something and you can't dispel as a bit of spite, but it hasn't worked well for me in my empire list.  I think a dispel scroll is still more valuable.

Love the loadout on the gorebull.  Armor piercing, ASF attacks, likely with rerolls is sweet. 

Your idea for the gear swap and the loadout on your beastlord is good.  I personally like that combo.  S5 is nothing to sneeze at - especially if you get multiple attacks out of it.  Challenges are mostly your friend here.

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: anvalous on May 11, 2011, 06:50:51 PM
Since we're on the topic, I'm considering a list for Adepticon next year.  This year ran 2200 and I'd expect that point level again.  Tough, especially since I'm 'committed' to my army due to my love of the models...

Here's what I've got:

Doom Bull - HA, Ramhorn, Gnarled Hide, Dawnstone, Axes of Khorgor - 342

Gorebull - BSB, Armor of Destiny (the 4+ ward one), Great weapon - 245
Brayshaman (beasts) - AHW, Chalice of the dark rain - 117
Brayshaman (beasts) - AHW - 77

Gors x 35, AHW, FC - 305
Gors x 35, AHW, FC - 305

Minotaurs x6, Mus, Std, AHW - 384
Harpies x6, scout - 84
Harpies x6 - 66

Ghorgon - 275

What do you think?  I'm wondering whether I condense my gors into one unit of ~50 and make another small unit of GW minos...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 11, 2011, 10:15:28 PM
I am also not a huge fan of the feedback scroll.  It can be helpful, but on average you're doing 2 wounds when someone throws 6 dice.  Nice to toss when someone IF's something and you can't dispel as a bit of spite, but it hasn't worked well for me in my empire list.  I think a dispel scroll is still more valuable.

If you can't attempt a dispel (for example if it is cast with IF) then you cannot use a scroll. It's in the BRB FAQ.

I think I agree with you, though. I may give him a dispel scroll and the stone of spite instead.

I'll chime in, for once... I play beasts some - more with my growing lion army.  Yeah.

@ Cannon - I would probably swap the Trollhide for the Talisman of Preservation on the Doombull.  I'd much rather have the ward over regen, even with the dragonbane.  You're spending 55 points for regen and light armor.  I'd rather just go with the 4++ for 45 and spend the couple extra points on heavy armor.
I originally had the talisman of preservation on him. I decided on the trollhide because it is a 4+ regen, with the possibility of a 2+ ward against anything that would cancel it out. I think that's worth 55 points. It's more a matter of personal preference.
Quote
Love the loadout on the gorebull.  Armor piercing, ASF attacks, likely with rerolls is sweet. 
Thanks! I think he'll do well. I think this loadout is pretty much interchangeable with the axes of khorgor. I also considered the Fencer's Blades instead of the Sword of Swift Slaying and the Uncanny Senses.
Quote
Your idea for the gear swap and the loadout on your beastlord is good.  I personally like that combo.  S5 is nothing to sneeze at - especially if you get multiple attacks out of it.  Challenges are mostly your friend here.

True enough. I think I would if I had the Beast Banner or more than one shaman who could cast Wild Call.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 11, 2011, 10:18:40 PM
Since we're on the topic, I'm considering a list for Adepticon next year.  This year ran 2200 and I'd expect that point level again.  Tough, especially since I'm 'committed' to my army due to my love of the models...

Here's what I've got:

Doom Bull - HA, Ramhorn, Gnarled Hide, Dawnstone, Axes of Khorgor - 342

Gorebull - BSB, Armor of Destiny (the 4+ ward one), Great weapon - 245
Brayshaman (beasts) - AHW, Chalice of the dark rain - 117
Brayshaman (beasts) - AHW - 77

Gors x 35, AHW, FC - 305
Gors x 35, AHW, FC - 305

Minotaurs x6, Mus, Std, AHW - 384
Harpies x6, scout - 84
Harpies x6 - 66

Ghorgon - 275

What do you think?  I'm wondering whether I condense my gors into one unit of ~50 and make another small unit of GW minos...

I think I would drop the Ghorgon or harpies before I dropped Gors, but more Minotaurs is never a bad idea. I have fallen out of love with GW minotaurs though. AHW is the way to go.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: anvalous on May 12, 2011, 12:37:43 PM
Thanks for the comments!  I'd drop the ghorgon, too, if it weren't the centerpiece for my army.  I'm building him from a necrosphinx and a ton of greenstuff - looks rad.  Not the best choice, agreed, but the prettiest!

I've read a few pages back and noticed the feelings on harpies.  I feel they provide some good harassment and maneuverability.  They can also 'cage' a huge unit if you're safe from magic/shooting by operating in a single line 1" from the flanks of said huge unit.  It can't do anything but reforms or move straight ahead because a turn or wheel will make it clip the walls of the cage.  Tricky, but useful.

Would it be more valuable to run with 4 units of 6 ungor raiders?  Ambush 2 units and play the harass game with the other 2?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 12, 2011, 12:57:01 PM
2 units to ambush is double the chance of one of them being a pain in your enemy's butt.  :happy:

I'm going to have a similar problem not fielding my ghorgon once he's finished. He's going to be so immense, it's going to be hard to leave him at home. I really wish they had given him some kind of save though. Toughness is all well and good, but it's too easy to get through...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 12, 2011, 01:31:51 PM
My ghorgon is done but I have no problem leaving him since it means more minotaur! And I split 50 50 on ahw versus gw. They each have their place.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 12, 2011, 02:22:49 PM
That's the other worst decision to have to make. Every time I take one, I wish I had taken the other. Still, I haven't tried maxing out my minos yet with two units of 6, maybe I should do that and have the best of both worlds.

I guess if you can beast spell the AHW ones, you really don't need to worry about the extra strength that much, though I wonder if the buffing is often best used on your other units that are already lacking in stats...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: anvalous on May 12, 2011, 03:41:30 PM
I have 2 lvl 1 beast shamans in my list so I can almost certainly get one Wysan's off on the minotaurs.  At T5, they actually stick around a bit, which is important considering the amount of fire they absorb.

Gors thrive with the buff, too.  S4 T5 is rockin'.  I'll take it!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 13, 2011, 03:27:39 AM
Okay, I have a crazy ass list, but it JUST MIGHT WORK!


2500pt Beastmen Roster

Beastlord (241pts) General
        Dragonhelm, Fencer's Blades, Talisman of Preservation, Heavy Armour

Doombull (335pts)
        Armour of Destiny, Axes of Khorgor, Uncanny Senses

Bray-Shaman (160pts)
        Power Scroll, Skin of Man, Wizard Level 2, Lore of Death

Gorebull (322pts)
        Battle Standard Bearer, The Beast Banner, Gnarled Hide, Gouge-tusks, Many-limbed Fiend, Heavy armour, Shield,


30x Gor Herd (255pts)
        Musician, Standard Bearer, Additional hand weapons

38x Gor Herd (329pts)
Foe-render, Musician, Standard Bearer, Additional hand weapons

6x Ungor Raiders (30pts)

6x Ungor Raiders (30pts)

6x Ungor Raiders (30pts) Ambush

6x Ungor Raiders (30pts) Ambush


7x Harpies (98pts)
Scout

 10x Minotaurs(640pts)
        Bloodkine, Musician, Standard bearer, Additional hand weapons

Total: 2500 even.

Now here's why I think this might work. In the local tournament on Saturday I will be facing 2 or 3 high elves, at least one WoC, up to 2 Empire, a Nurgle Daemon army, 2 Skaven,  and possibly Dwarves, O&G, and Tomb Kings.

The Minotaur Meatgrinder (also known as the "LOOK AT ME" unit) with Doombull and Gorbull BSB will be in the middle, with either the one unit of 38 Gors with general, or both units of gors, depending on if I decide to ambush one of the units. Two units of Raiders will ambush IF I am facing a shooting heavy army. If I am facing Daemons or WoC they will not ambush, though the Gor unit might. The smaller Gor unit will Ambush most games, although one of the scenarios is always the battle of the pass scenario, so I doubt I will ambush at all in that game.

The harpies will hunt war machines and lone mages, and everything will just sort of surge forward, with the minotaurs trying to get into CC as quickly as possibly to start destroying things. With all the scouting and ambushing I will almost always gain the +1 to go first.

My shaman is a level 2 death mage with the scroll of power and the Skin of Man. Skin of Man lets him scout, and I decided on it only because I will be using lore of Death. Spirit Leach, Caress of Laniph, and Fate of Bjuna are all great spells for getting rid of warmachines! Fate of Being close means I can cast at the lower casting values rather than bumping it up to 24" range. More importantly, what if I get Purple Sun? SCROLL OF POWER! My opponent will be so terrified of that that I will be able to draw away an inordinate amount of troops and attention to chase down my lowly mage. He's 160 points of priority target in my opponent's backfield. I just have to keep him out of sight of Elven shooting, and cannons.

My minotaurs start the game with 5 attacks each, at strength 6 (Beast Banner). Doombull has 7 at Strength 7, and Gorebull has 5 at Strength 6, and one at strength 5, all Armor Piercing. They will be 5 across most of the time. I am debating removing the Bloodkine. He is not necessary, and his removal would allow me to field them 4 across without having to put a character in the second rank. If I do that, I will add two more Gors to the big unit.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: anvalous on May 13, 2011, 04:03:55 PM
Oh, how I laugh.  I think this list will do quite well.  Your mino bus is going to be disgusting.  That big, I'd run 2x6 with your characters.  You want all of the attacks you can.  4 wide is nice, but then you're paying for ablative wounds and not damage output.  Against hordes - 6 wide.  Against buses - 4 wide is fine.

I don't know if the bloodkine is worth it, but I see one major advantage - give him the gold sigil sword for 10-15 pts (I forget) and you'll have a front rank that will strike hard and fast - and give you some opportunity to kill characters outside of a challenge.  If you did this, I'd drop a few gors.

Otherwise, I really like it.  I'll post in a giffy the list that I started thinking through.  You'll understand my chuckle then...

Let us know how it plays!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: anvalous on May 13, 2011, 04:07:33 PM
A bit of a tweak.  More versatility and deployment control and some ambushers to annoy people.  Further, I wanted to do something in the shooting phase.  I rarely do anything in the shooting phase...

Specifically, though, any thoughts on the loadout of the doombull?

Doom Bull - HA, Ramhorn, Gnarled Hide, Dawnstone, Shield, Sword of Swift Slaying, Uncanny Senses- 343

Gorebull - BSB, Armor of Destiny (the 4+ ward one), Great weapon - 245
Brayshaman (beasts) - AHW, lvl 2, Ironcurse Icon, Chalice of the dark rain - 157

Gors x 48, AHW, FC - 409
Ungor Raiders x6 - 36
Ungor Raiders x6 - 36
Ungor Raiders x6 - 36
Ungor Raiders x6 - 36

Minotaurs x6, Mus, Std, AHW - 384
Harpies x6 - 66
Harpies x6 - 66
Razorgor - 55
Razorgor - 55

Ghorgon - 275

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 13, 2011, 09:39:25 PM
I like that loadout on your DB. He'll shock and awe a lot of people, and he'll destroy characters and units alike.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 15, 2011, 07:30:32 AM
It went really poorly, but I don't blame the list. When my 6 wide Mino unit (including both characters) does exactly 7 unsaved wounds on the charge, and then takes 12 in return from str3 infantry, there's not a lot you can do about that. It was so frustrating. Doombull did one wound! ONE after hitting with all seven attacks!

DICE! GAH! From the depths of Hell, I stab at thee!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 15, 2011, 10:28:22 AM
Was that including impact hits and stomps?

If so, that's just sad.

Even if not, it's still pretty horrific.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 15, 2011, 11:29:56 AM
Was that including impact hits and stomps?

If so, that's just sad.

Even if not, it's still pretty horrific.

Including Impact hits (3 from doombull), Stomps, and a -1 to strength and toughness on the enemy unit (Lore of Death hex). It was ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: anvalous on May 23, 2011, 03:19:49 PM
One more crazy idea, what do you think?

Doombull, sword of swift striking, heavy armor, charmed shield, gnarled hide, luckstone, arabyan carpet - 347
Gorebull, BSB, armor of destiny, greatweapon - 245
Brayshaman, beasts, lvl 2, chalice of the dark rain, ironcurse icon, AHW - 157

Gor x48, FC, AHW - 409
Tuskgor Chariot - 80
Tuskgor Chariot - 80

Minotaurs x6, Mus, Std, AHW - 384
Harpies x6, scout - 84
Harpies x6, scout - 84
Razorgor - 55

Ghorgon - 275

Premise here is that I have a flying doombull.  If I keep him within 3" of my minos, he's got a 4+ Look Out Sir.  With that, the chalice, and the charmed shield, I should be able to get him into the backfield by turn 2.  If I do well eating warmachines, by the time he makes it back to the main line, he'll have an extra couple of attacks to eat people.  It'll be neat.  Otherwise, harpies can run harassment, gors can run as either a horde or a bus, depending on what I need, and the minotaurs and ghorgon are both there to smash stuff with chariot support.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 23, 2011, 03:58:21 PM
Not a bad idea, but Doombull is a bit pricey for Warmachine hunting, don't you think? How about a Beastlord instead?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: anvalous on May 23, 2011, 04:09:29 PM
Good question.  I thought about the beastlord, but it came back to one's ability to stay alive.  The extra wounds on the doombull make that a touch easier, as does the higher strength.  Though pricey, I think the DB is a little more versatile in the role than the beastlord.  He can also hunt small elite units effectively.  We'll see.  I'd have to playtest this first.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 30, 2011, 01:15:34 AM
Neither are worth it.  If you are really looking to disrupt warmachines, doing it around turn 3 isn't going to help you.  You units should be in combat by then, making warmachines far less useful.  The better choice would be piles of ungor raiders, ambushing half of them.  A small unit of 10 gor per gor horde.  Get as many as possible close to the warmachines and take care of them that way.  Still far cheaper than a doombull.

Phil
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: anvalous on June 20, 2011, 04:25:19 PM
Ah... where to start...  Well, perhaps with the game itself...

I had a pick-up game on Saturday against Daemons.  Not the best matchup but I was intrigued to see how my beasts would do.  My list was:

Doombull, 1+, reroll, ASF, Ramhorn
Gorebull BSB with Beasts banner
2 lvl 1 Shamans with Beast, 1 scroll
35 gors, AHW, FC
12 gors, AHW (ambush)
2 Tuskgor Chariots
Razogor
6 Minotaurs, AHW, FC, Gold Sigil Sword on champ
Ghorgon

He ran:
2 flying tzeentch heralds, one loremaster life, one loremaster shadow
1 nurgle herald with puking mastery
1 slaanesh herald, nekkid...
7 flesh hounds
2 units of 18 daemonettes
1 unit of 24 plague bearers
1 unit of 4 flamers
1 unit of 18 bloodletters
(That's as good of a memory as I've got.  Infantry heavy, not such a bad list, really)

Dawn attack screwed us over as it meant we both ended up heavily loading the same flank - my big block of gor were stranded on the far side of the table.  Further, there was a boiling river between us which really limited my chariots.  Everything was going all right until turn 2 where I had to pick between T5 daemonettes or the plaguebearers with the herald for my minotaur charge.  I chose the plaguebearers.  That was a mistake.

You see, I hit like a ton of bricks.  I mean, hard.  I inflicted 22 wounds on the charge.  I allocated hits on the herald, too, and managed 5 wounds - he regened 4 of 'em which meant he was alive to allow 10 of the 22 RnF wounds to regen.  I inflict 13 total.  Then he proceeded to puke, had a banner with reroll wounds, and struck back inflicting 15 wounds even.  I lost combat by 2, broke on rerollable 6's and lost half of my army in one, fell swoop.

We continued playing and I learned several things:

1.  Wicked characters still lose combats when attached to glass cannons.  If I would have hit a block of 50 night goblins with my mino bus, I still would have been rocked.  Would have won first turn, but attrition would almost guarentee that I'd lose the second or third combat.

2.  Lvl 1's with a single scroll does not a magic defense make.  I need something more.

3.  My ghorgon performed really well.  T6 is the deal breaker.  He ate all of the fleshhounds and was rockin' and rollin' until he broke through and was flamed.

4.  Chariots are a steal.  I love them.

5.  My small ambushing gors were solid.  I got wyssans up on them and forced a daemonette unit which was holding the far flank to choose between the S4, T5 gors in their rear or the 35 S3, T4 gors in the front.  It ended up going great for him because he got off Okkam's.  S7 daemonettes = bad.  Also, see point 2.

6.  Single razorgors are rad.  I think a unit could also be awesome.  I'm debating this strongly.  Problem is that I like them as singles.  In a less sculpting-intense army, I'd run 0 minotaurs and a bazillion razorgors.  It'd be neat.  Sort of.

With all of this in mind, I decided to look at something slightly different.  I am still in love with my doombull.  He wins.  I also still love the ghorgon.  Gorebull BSB, mostly miss.  Magic, need more.  I also want to try out this wild flying doombull idea.  So... here's a shake at another 2200 point list.  And yes, I completely realize the impracticallity of the flying doombull...

Doombull, carpet, 1+ save with Ramhorn, Gold sigil sword
Great Bray Shaman of Death (level 3 - stalled by lord point limit)
Bray shaman of beasts, level 2, ironcurse

32 gors, AHW, FC
12 gors, AHW, mus, std
2x Tuskgor chariot

5 minos, AHW, Mus, std
2x razorgors (singles)

and the kicker........

2 ghorgons.

= 2200 pts.

I know, it sounds crazy.  Really crazy.  Even so, I think I'm going to playtest it and see.  It could be an absolute riot.  I'm considering dropping the DB to a 2+ save with the charmed shield and no magical sword to free up points so the GBS can be level 4.  We'll see.

Thoughts?  Aside from seeing 2 ghorgons... we know how cool that'd look :-D
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on June 20, 2011, 08:36:28 PM
I'm really liking single razorgors too. 55 pts for that killing machine and with no slot requirements, you're not missing out on anything by taking a couple. Great potential for taking out war machines, characters or just slapping in with a combined charge. I find it hard not to take two every time. The great thing is, even if they die early on, you've only lost the equivalent of a unit of hounds or something points wise, and they've sucked up a lot of enemy fire from cannons etc. But if they are ignored, they can do wonderful things...

I don't know what to do about the ghorgon's toughness. I really want to start taking one soon, but Im scared he's just going to go poof in the first turn or two and that's a lot of points down the drain. I suppose there is always wyssans to beef him up a bit, but they you're not using it on a unit that would really be made better with it...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on August 24, 2011, 12:16:35 PM
So I am wondering about tryin a gor horde... any thoughts on that?

Also, what about ungor horde led by a 4+ ward gorebull? That just sounds nifty...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on August 24, 2011, 09:52:16 PM
Gor hordes are amazing! A trio of low level beast lore casters, and you'll be able to cast Wildform a bunch of times.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 25, 2011, 12:16:37 AM
Gor hordes are very good indeed.  The BSB with the beast banner makes them a nightmare once you add a wildform.  38 S5 and 3 S8 rerollables flying out of that unit?  Yes please!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on August 25, 2011, 01:26:30 PM
Cool. I'm actually thinking of going the whole hog and running 50 of them. I'm not keen on hordes with less than 5 ranks and I'm sure either way they're going to have to face a couple of templates before they reach combat.

So what about the ungors? I asked the question over on Herdstone and it raised more debate than anticipated. Though the general consensus seemed to be that it wasn't the most effiicient use of the points when you could sink it into a god horde, but that many people have run it and it's worked out for them so it won't doom you to failure either. I'll probably run my ungors in a 40 bus for the most part, but I like the idea of a 50 strong frenzied unit like that even if the trade off for hatred isn't the most cost effective....
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on August 26, 2011, 07:35:49 AM
The point difference is not sufficient in my opinion to justify running ungors instead of gors. T4 actually makes a lot of difference.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 26, 2011, 01:11:33 PM
I have 60 painted ungor... that is why I use them.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: anvalous on August 26, 2011, 07:50:01 PM
It is getting to that time when focus becomes important.  In 8 short month, there will be the wonderful throwdown that is Adepticon.  I can hardly wait to unleash my lionmen on the event!  Huzzah!

However, I am far to practical for my own good and the identification of a list becomes vital to making sure I apply my painting time to an army asset.  With that in mind, I'd like a bit of feedback on this list as it has a few elements I've never used, and a few I know I love through my playtest games (I've had 4 so far).

Lords:
Great Bray Shaman of Beasts - lvl 4, Talisman of Preservation (4+ ward), Additional Hand Weapon (AHW) - 283
Beastlord - Crown of Command, Shadowgave Armor (-1 hit for shooting and spells are +2 casting value [difficulty] when targeting his unit), Ironcurse Icon, Gnarled Hide, Shield - 248

Heroes:
Gorebull - BSB, HA, Shield, Dragon Helm, Uncanny Swiftness, Sword of Swift Slaying - 242
Gorebull - Blackened Plate (2+ ward vs. fire, 4+ ward vs fire for the unit), Shield, Gold Sigil Sword - 199

Core:
Gors x44 - AHW, FC - 377
Ungor Raiders x6 - 36
Tuskgor Chariot - 80
Tuskgor Chariot -80

Special:
Minotaurs x5 - Mus, Std, AHW - 325
Razorgor - 55

Rare:
Ghorgon - 275

Rationalizations:
Great Bray Shaman - I need the magical support and the lore of beasts is one I adore for this army.  Wildform is amazing, amber spear is useful, and savage beast/pan's pelt are rad character buffs.  The 4+ ward is just to help keep him around longer.  The AHW is 3 points of, potentially, an extra S7 attack (with savage beast).  I'll take it.

Beastlord - I've not yet played with this guy.  I've had enough problems with leadership in my test games that I decided the ld 9 Beastlord was a superior choice to my favorite Doombull.  Plus, he's slightly less expensive than the Doombull, which means I can actually fit a decently-equiped Great Bray Shaman.  His gear is set completely for support.  The armor gives them some extra resilience against shooting and will force an extra die for the piddling spells.  Ironcurse is nice.  3+ armor is pretty weak, but it is something for a T5 guy

Dual Gorebulls - I've run the minotaur deathstar in a practice game and there are some things I really like about it.  If I can get it the chariot support it needs, it will devastate the enemy.  I must choose my targets carefully here.  Plague bearers are bad news.  With the possible support of Wyssan's, this unit becomes even harder.  The gorebulls give me tough BSBs with the ability to kill quickly in a challenge, or so I hope.  It also lets me use both of my cool lion-o-taur characters.  Not quite like a Doombull/Gorebull BSB combo, but pretty rad.

Gors - this unit has never let me down.  Ever.  All of my games showed the mettle of WS 4, T4 troops who reroll to hit 70+% of the time.  They hit reasonably hard and have great staying power.  With Wyssan's, they rock even more.  With a Beastlord in their midst, I have high hopes for their continued performance.  Highlight of my practice games was a unit of 35, ranked deep, beating a unit of bloodletters over 3 turns.  It rocked.

Raiders - I haven't used these guys yet, but it is a cheap flex unit that provides some screening and redirecting ability.  Not to mention the completely off chance that they'll hit something with their bows.

Tuskgor chariots - T4, 4+ armor save is not half bad.  They hit hard and the gor/bestigor both get primal fury, too.  This makes them slightly more reliable on the charge and helps prevent rubber impact syndrome.  They have been a solid deterrant on the field for me and I appreciate the versatility they bring to the fight.

Minotaurs - I discussed them in my gorebull breakdown.  This unit is a glass cannon and I've had it bounce from a block in round 1 and die, grind a unit of daemonettes into the groups, and completely destroy a unit of empire swordsmen.  Target choice is key.  With two characters, people are frightened of this unit.  A lot.  So what if it is 700+ points?

Razorgor - A vicious surprise for me!  I can redirect or hunt support units.  Even fit through a gap and hit a lone wizard, on occassion.  His horrible leadership makes him a bit of a liability by himself, as he won't rally, but if I get the charge, he comes in with 4 S6 attacks.  Nice.

Ghorgon - Old ironside.  With T6, this guys has stood up to a lot.  He dies.  His swallowing regenerating wounds is a 25% crap shoot, but can keep his stubborn ld 10 self holding up something scary for an extra turn.  I love this model to death and he makes me smile.

In short, this army lacks a lot of versatility, but I have a handful of support units for my two workhorses.  I'm afraid of multiple big hordes, and rock hard combat blocks (WoC and dwarves).  That said, it looks to be a fun list and I think my tweaks with the added beast lord help.

Specific feedback I'm look for relates to the loadout of the characters and the viability of my second gorebull.  If I don't have him, I have one less cool model on the table, but the opportunity to add other cool models.  Always tough.

I know I need to keep the gor horde, at least some minotaurs (do I split into 2 units of 3?), at least one mino character, and the ghorgon.  Otherwise, I have some flex.  If you saw this on the other side of the table, what would you think?

Thanks for the feedback, folks!
 
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on August 27, 2011, 12:23:44 PM
I am not a fan of the point outlay for a minobus that small.  Better off letting the minotaurs have a single gorbull, dropping the gorgon, and taking another unit of minotaur with another gorbull.  The combat efficiency is almost identical (the gorbull only gets one more attack while frenzy is redundant with 2) and spreads the threats over two units.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on September 08, 2011, 04:20:59 PM
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/1aaeb8d5-d6f3-4ecc-9af4-25d4d263abe0.jpg)

Well, I've got my unit trays ready for my gorhorde and unbus. Not really having enough of either, I plan to unit fill with trees at some point. For now it is empty bases and ogres, but I actually like the idea of spacing them out and putting trees amongst them, it will feel a bit more like that raidinh skirmishers feel that they had last edition. I may be able with a couple more boxes too to make another unit of each without tonnes of spending...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on September 11, 2011, 10:18:55 AM
I like that idea of trees as unit fillers. Nice!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on September 11, 2011, 01:07:41 PM
Yeah, I'm really hoping it will bring the woodland raiders feel back to the army now that they have to be all ranked up. If I could afford it, I'd use the GW woods trees, but I can't, so I'm going to be hunting down some appropriate twigs  :evil:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on September 18, 2011, 04:48:31 PM
I am going back to a great shaman and dropping the ungor.  I will put the BSB with the banner of the beast into a horde of 59 gor and the Beastlord into a horde of 29 bestigor.  Backed with 4 chariots and a pair of minotaur units 7 strong with a gorbull in each.  Add a 2nd level shaman and it looks like a good list.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on October 13, 2011, 07:46:13 PM
For some reason I've only now had a little sitdown with the (not quite anymore) new Beastmen book... Hm.
There's some stuff that jumps out as almost a must, and other stuff that's... clearly not quite so hot. A lot of the latter, it seems.
In particular there doesn't seem to be single rare choice that screams "Ooh, ohh, me! Pick me!" Bit sad really.

Since it's easy and fast I idly clicked together a list in onlinecodex... pretty straightforward, as all fancy shenanigans seem more gimmicky to me than actually strong.


***************  2 Lords *************** 

Beastlord (joins Bestigors)
- General
+ - Heavy Armor
   - Shield
+ - Ogre Blade
   - Ironcurse Icon
   - Talisman of Preservation
   - Dracgonhelm
 - - - > 254

Great Shaman (joins Gors)
- Upgrade Lvl. 4
- Add. Handweapon
+ - Lore of Shadows
+ - Potion of Toughness
   - Talisman of Endurance
   - Jagged Dagger
 - - - > 299


***************  3 Heroes *************** 

Wargor (joins Gors)
+ - Heavy Armor
   - Shield
+ BSB
   - Beast Banner
+ - Gnarled Hide
 - - - > 206

Shaman (joins Ungors)
- Add. Handweapon
+ - Lore of Beasts
+ - Chalice of the Black Rain
 - - - > 117

Shaman (joins Bestigors)
- Upgrade Lvl. 2
- Add. Handweapon
+ - Lore of Beasts
 - - - > 112


***************  4 Core *************** 

48 Gor Herd
- Add. Handweapons
- FC
 - - - > 409

59 Ungor Herd
- FC
 - - - > 310

Tuskgor Chariot
 - - - > 80

Tuskgor Chariot
 - - - > 80


***************  5 Elite  *************** 

39 Bestigor Herd
- FC
 - - - > 486

6 Minotaurs
- Add. Handweapons
- Musician
 - - - > 364

1 Razorgor Chariot
 - - - > 145

1 Razorgor
 - - - > 55

1 Razorgor
 - - - > 55

Beastmen : 2997

Not very imaginative I suppose, but it should serve.

Damn, the models are so nice, but the book really seems a bit boring.

edit: oops. forgot a translation, and the Great Shaman is of course Lvl. 4
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 13, 2011, 08:13:57 PM
For some reason I've only now had a little sitdown with the (not quite anymore) new Beastmen book... Hm.
There's some stuff that jumps out as almost a must, and other stuff that's... clearly not quite so hot. A lot of the latter, it seems.
In particular there doesn't seem to be single rare choice that screams "Ooh, ohh, me! Pick me!" Bit sad really.

I only like the Gorgon, and if I didn't have the model I would never ever use him.  Even now, I just take more minotaur.
Since it's easy and fast I idly clicked together a list in onlinecodex... pretty straightforward, as all fancy shenanigans seem more gimmicky to me than actually strong.

Quote
Beastlord (joins Bestigors)
- General
+ - Heavy Armor
   - Shield
+ - Ogre Blade
   - Ironcurse Icon
   - Talisman of Preservation
   - Dracgonhelm
 - - - > 254

That is an interesting setup.  I generally go with the crown of command, armor of destiny, and gnarled hide mutation for a 3+ AS and a 4+ ward plus a great weapon.  S7 seems like enough for me.

Quote
Great Shaman (joins Gors)
- Upgrade Lvl. 3
- Add. Handweapon
+ - Lore of Shadows
+ - Potion of Toughness
   - Talisman of Endurance
   - Jagged Dagger
 - - - > 299

I normally go with a earthing rod and the talisman of protection.  I also use beast magic with a level 4 upgrade.  I also stick him in a chariot since I was tired of miscast annihilation.

Quote
***************  3 Heroes *************** 

Häuptling (joins Gors)
+ - Heavy Armor
   - Shield
+ BSB
   - Beast Banner
+ - Gnarled Hide
 - - - > 206

Can you get a mutation and magic banner?  I also give him a great weapon.

Quote
Shaman (joins Ungors)
- Add. Handweapon
+ - Lore of Beasts
+ - Chalice of the Black Rain
 - - - > 117

I hate sticking any hero in an ungor unit.  They end up hanging off the end because of different base sizes.  I have been putting in a second horde of gor instead lately and breaking the ungor up into ambushers.

Quote
Shaman (joins Bestigors)
- Upgrade Lvl. 2
- Add. Handweapon
+ - Lore of Beasts
 - - - > 112

I am loath to put too many shaman into bestigor units.  Too many miscast hells.  Plus you lose a S6 rerollable attack.

Quote
***************  4 Core *************** 

48 Gor Herd
- Add. Handweapons
- FC
 - - - > 409

Yeah!

Quote
59 Ungor Herd
- FC
 - - - > 310

Yeah!  Thoguh like I said I have been replacing him with gor.

Quote
Tuskgor Chariot
 - - - > 80

Tuskgor Chariot
 - - - > 80

YEAH!  But MOAR CHARIOTS!

Quote


Quote
***************  5 Elite  *************** 

39 Bestigor Herd
- FC
 - - - > 486

I normally go with just 30.  They hit so hard and take damage pretty well.  I also give them either the flaming banner or swiftness.

Quote
6 Minotaurs
- Add. Handweapons
- Musician
 - - - > 364

Great weapons every time!  S7! 

Quote
1 Razorgor Chariot
 - - - > 145

1 Razorgor
 - - - > 55

1 Razorgor
 - - - > 55

Meh, I would drop all of this and take more normal chariots or another minotaur unit.

It is a bit of a boring army playingwise, but the flavor and models are awesome.  I just love the ideas.  Minotaurs are what brought me to Warhammer.  I play with between 12 and 16 in all of my armies.

I like looking at your list because I respect your opinion and you bring some fresh ideas.  I will have to crunch some of these numbers!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on October 13, 2011, 08:40:45 PM
I normally go with a earthing rod and the talisman of protection.  I also use beast magic with a level 4 upgrade.  I also stick him in a chariot since I was tired of miscast annihilation.

That is indeed a concern... I guess I'm just under the instinct of "if you can put something in a unit, do so".
I may have shot the Lvl. 4 Chaos Wizard in a Chariot a friend of mine used in 7th too many times with cannons...
 :engel:

Can you get a mutation and magic banner?  I also give him a great weapon.

I think so. Onlinecodex allows it, and being BSB precludes using magic items, which are apparently different from gifts. Seems logical to me.
I though having a 2+ AS and a 6++ parry would be nice since he'll have to fight.

I hate sticking any hero in an ungor unit.  They end up hanging off the end because of different base sizes.  I have been putting in a second horde of gor instead lately and breaking the ungor up into ambushers.

That guy is mostly there to use the Chalice to blunt the first enemy shooting phase and maybe casts Wyssans once they reach combat. After that I don't care about his hairy ass anymore.
 :-D

I am loath to put too many shaman into bestigor units.  Too many miscast hells.  Plus you lose a S6 rerollable attack.

Only the one, and he's there to cast Wyssans, and maybe a second nice spell he may get. You're very right that a miscast would be very unfortunate on him though... hm.

Yeah!  Thoguh like I said I have been replacing him with gor.

I had a bit of trouble filling core to be honest... is ambushing any good in your experience? It seems pretty random to gamble large parts of your army on. I figured the Ungor would just be a nice, durable bus that could be Wyssan'd for some carnage. And since the Great Shaman has Shadows that could be coupled with a bit of Miasma to really make the blood splatter against the camera.

YEAH!  But MOAR CHARIOTS!

Really? More?
 :ph34r:

I normally go with just 30.  They hit so hard and take damage pretty well.  I also give them either the flaming banner or swiftness.

I like a bit of resilience in the big guys, especially if they're being run 10 wide... but you may have a point, they're quite expensive. But 40 would look amazing!

Great weapons every time!  S7! 

Good tip. Screw 3 more attacks. And they will be punched in the face anyway before they can do much...

Meh, I would drop all of this and take more normal chariots or another minotaur unit.

I had another minotaur unit, but points didn't pan out. I could try shifting around some.

It is a bit of a boring army playingwise, but the flavor and models are awesome.  I just love the ideas.  Minotaurs are what brought me to Warhammer.  I play with between 12 and 16 in all of my armies.

Me too, I fucking loved the beastmen from the moment I saw the first pictures... that awesome Monolith of the Nurgle Champion in the last book? Man! "...and beneath the stone I found a Demon blade of unsurpassed rust, and it slew well for Nurgle..."
ARRRRR!

I like looking at your list because I respect your opinion and you bring some fresh ideas.

Awww. Thanks!
 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 13, 2011, 10:01:38 PM
Okay here is what I normally field now at 3000 for troops.  Characters and magic load outs often change.

Core:
59 Gor = AHW Full command
5 Chariots

Special:
6 Minotaur - GW, musician
6 Minotaur - GW, Musician
29 Bestigor - Full command and swiftness, eternal flame, or discipline banners

Character loadouts:

Beastlord - Crown of Command, talisman of preservation, sword of might, heavy armor, shield
Doombull - Axes of korgor,

Heroes:
Wargor - BSB, gnarled hide, shield, great weapon, heavy armor, beast banner
Shaman - dispel scroll, 2nd level, AHW, beast magic


Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on October 13, 2011, 10:13:58 PM
I've run some maths, and those 7 Minotaur+Character units badly need support of a ranked unit to handle an infantry horde, despite the horrendous points cost. A Halberd horde will grind 'em down (especially with a Priest in them) and win, at half the cost. Striking last does seem rather fatal for them considering they're T4 with no save to speak of (That unit in my example will be down to three models before they strike the second time...).

Makes me wonder if some cheapo Ungors with just HW and shield, maybe 30-35 strong, wouldn't be more useful than yet more chariots...? 6-7 Ranks on top of all those minotaur kills should work pretty well.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 13, 2011, 10:52:38 PM
Generally you counter hordes with the gor horde or the bestigor, either of which can get the wysaans on them to make them S4 T5 or S5 T5.  The minotaur units soak a tremendous amount of fire, can break regular blocks and elites with horrific regularity, and just terrify enemy generals.  The biggest issue with them is that they need a non-bloodgreed model in combat to ensure there is a chance of catching a fleeing unit.  My hammer list has two units of 7 minotaur with a doombull in one and a gorebull in the other.  They hit super hard but are expensive.

With 6 chariots on the field it presents good support opportunities.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on October 14, 2011, 07:25:59 AM
Yeah, Chariots would be good for pursuing I suppose. But I was just adding up the cost for a unit of Minotaurs with command, 7 dudes and Great Weapons, plus a Gorebull with Trollhide and a Great Weapon. I almost fainted.
 :-D
Considering I can't even solo-use it as a mainline combat unit to break large formations.

Somehow, the unit seems like massive overkill against suitable targets, and lacking the chin to fight the heavyweights.

I dunno man. I dunno. Those guys play in the same weight class as Rat Ogres, and I have plenty of experience with those. I consider Rat Ogres to be good and useful as longs as they stay reasonable in cost. About 700 points... seem quite a lot...

If there was only some way to make 'em last longer... but I remain open to be convinced.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 14, 2011, 10:34:38 AM
Well keep in mind, they only need to smash a unit or two out of the way two or three times before they are a horror show.  I had the doombull and only two other models left once and was doing 34 attacks per round plus 3 S5 impact hits and d3 S6 plus stomps.  In one turn I killed 23 Saurus.  I use mintaur on the flank.  They will devastate cavalry units, chariots, large monsters, skirmishers, etc.  You have a good amount of points locked up in them, roughly 600 with a hero, but once they have cleared a flank and combine charge with 2 chariots into blocks they will dominate them.  Maybe it is different for other players, but catching and killing a block or two and some support models is often enough to win a game by a bit.  Minotaur do lose wounds, but they will kill anything they touch.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Finlay on October 21, 2011, 11:06:09 AM
Are there any beast forums I can sell my stuff without going on ebay?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on October 21, 2011, 11:16:50 AM
The herdstone ?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Finlay on October 21, 2011, 11:43:28 AM
I thought it was crap and inactive?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on October 21, 2011, 11:58:19 AM
Are there any beast forums I can sell my stuff without going on ebay?

Are you willing to ship to the U.S.?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on October 21, 2011, 12:23:45 PM
I thought it was crap and inactive?


That's why it's called "the Herdstone".


Totally in character with the fluff.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Finlay on October 21, 2011, 12:48:27 PM
Are there any beast forums I can sell my stuff without going on ebay?

Are you willing to ship to the U.S.?

Not sure really, Probably!

I also don't know what the ungors go for because the only auctions on ebay are BiN
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 21, 2011, 12:55:29 PM
I thought it was crap and inactive?


That's why it's called "the Herdstone".


Totally in character with the fluff.

Ha ha ha SHUT UP!

Seriously though, it is not a very active site, though it has a handful of members.  People are completely spoiled by how good this site is.  The Herdstone is the norm for Warhammer fantasy and 40k.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 21, 2011, 01:02:15 PM
What have you got for minotaur bestigor and chariots.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Finlay on October 21, 2011, 05:44:44 PM
Are you talking to me?

I have got 2 chariots, but I am using them as boar chariots. Not that I really like boar chariots.

And I have one of the old metal minotaur with great weapons.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 21, 2011, 09:26:57 PM
Damn, can't help you then.

I am at the point in my beastman career where all I need are minotaur, bestigor, and chariots.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on October 21, 2011, 09:38:55 PM
I am at the point in my beastman career where all I need are minotaur, bestigor, and chariots.

Somehow, that sentence made me chuckle. I had an image in my head of a bored Wargor saying that to another bored Wargor over a cup of mead in their favourite bar or something.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 21, 2011, 09:40:31 PM
LOL yeah pretty much.  I really don't need anything but often find myself thinking you honestly can never own too many of those three units!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Aldaris on October 21, 2011, 09:47:57 PM
One can never have too many bipedal, axe-swinging cows or goats, or pig-drawn carts for them to ride in.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on October 22, 2011, 12:16:15 AM
Thats exactly my feelings on the matter!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on October 23, 2011, 10:53:07 AM
Finlay, are you getting my PM's?  :icon_question:  :?  :unsure:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on November 05, 2011, 06:56:20 PM
According to Hastings, the big missing monsters should be out in december if his sources are correct.

The Ghorgon/Cygor kit looks awesome apparently.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 05, 2011, 07:36:54 PM
I"d be excited but they are way too late and not really all that worth taking :|   
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on November 05, 2011, 07:51:21 PM
I agree.  They are not worth the points by any means.  The ghorgon should be around 235 points and no more.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on November 05, 2011, 08:09:16 PM
I"d be excited but they are way too late and not really all that worth taking :|   

The hobbyist in me wants to show you my personal garrote but instead...

... The slythe will also be released.

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on November 05, 2011, 08:10:34 PM
I have my gorgon but it still makes me sad.  I just put more minotaur in instead. :(
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 05, 2011, 11:40:03 PM
Even when I get mine finished, it's probably only gonna appear once every 5 or more battles... just for surprise value.

You know Philly I think it could be 200pts and still fair. Afterall it has no save whatsoever... and in order to use it's really cool point (that killing blow) it has to sacrifice all it's other attacks... the stats are pretty good but now that anything can wound anything...

I'd be getting much more excited if they were releasing say, plastic chariots and shamans... now there'd be some Christmas present certainties right there...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on November 06, 2011, 12:35:43 PM
Well it is better than 200 points, but not by much.  The Arachnorok spider is so far and away the superior model it is scary.  Granted, the LD10 stubborn helps a lot, but it is just too weak to soft for those 270 points.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on November 07, 2011, 09:50:14 AM
The Cygor has its uses.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: McKnight on November 21, 2011, 02:05:03 PM
Hey Beast boys! Take a look at this!


(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7706/20112011552.jpg)
(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6146/20112011550.jpg)
(http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/5759/20112011551.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on November 21, 2011, 02:22:18 PM
Sigh... if only they were worth using. :(
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on November 21, 2011, 03:07:25 PM
Snap judgement, don't like them. Especially the jabber, terrible.

The paintjobs probably don't help, but they just look like giant kit variations to me. I know they're not. I just am getting bored of how they keep posing different monsters in the same kind of poses. Was the same with the hpa and sphynx.

Ah well, I am making my own and as Philly said, not much use for them anywho...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on November 21, 2011, 03:25:16 PM
 I  Like the models, I just dont see much point.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on November 21, 2011, 04:06:46 PM
I like the cyclops and the Jabberslythe.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on November 21, 2011, 04:22:38 PM
Pfft... I've got all three already.


And yes their points are prohibitive... But boy do they look nice...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: anvalous on December 01, 2011, 09:45:02 PM
I'm quite fond of the jabberslythe, as odd as that sounds.  Cool beastie.  If it were T6 with some sort of protection, I'd be on it in a heartbeat!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on December 02, 2011, 12:57:20 AM
That is my problem with all of the large beastman models.  No protection from anything other than their toughness, which just isn't enough.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Shadowlord on December 02, 2011, 07:11:33 AM
The Ghorgon and Cygor dwarf the GW Giant hard.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on December 02, 2011, 11:07:00 AM
Looks like it considering the base.  I may have to pick up the ghorgon but only because I am like that.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on April 25, 2012, 11:33:15 PM
So I haven't played beasts in ages and I want to.

I kinda want to spice things up a bit though and am thinking about trying out some ambushing madness.

Not sure on what points level I'd be at but was thinking of like:

2 x 24 Gors on table
1 x 30 Ungors on table
1 x 5 Raiders off table

And ditto off it.

Probably some harpies and razorgors to try and take out easy but painful threats (wizards and warcmachines etc) incase my plans go awry and the units end up behind me and I have to wait for them.

If they don't, I'm thinking fun sandwich time...

Have any of you actually tried that much ambushing? I know it will be unreliable and unpredictable as anything, but I feel like a change up.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on April 26, 2012, 02:35:55 AM
So I haven't played beasts in ages and I want to.

I kinda want to spice things up a bit though and am thinking about trying out some ambushing madness.

Not sure on what points level I'd be at but was thinking of like:

2 x 24 Gors on table
1 x 30 Ungors on table
1 x 5 Raiders off table

And ditto off it.

Probably some harpies and razorgors to try and take out easy but painful threats (wizards and warcmachines etc) incase my plans go awry and the units end up behind me and I have to wait for them.

If they don't, I'm thinking fun sandwich time...

Have any of you actually tried that much ambushing? I know it will be unreliable and unpredictable as anything, but I feel like a change up.

I've played a similar list before. It can be very exciting and effective, but if you are facing a fast angry opponent like Warriors of Chaos or Brets, they'll just charge forward and destroy you piecemeal.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on April 26, 2012, 04:08:40 PM
Thankfully I haven't had to face them much recently, though there is a Chaos player there...

I think my main problem is going to be gathering enough troops to make it happen!

If possible I would also squeeze my bestigors in with the banner of swiftness to put some pressure on their attempts to turn and deal with the ambushers.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on April 26, 2012, 07:51:51 PM
My list is still roughly:

2 gorebull - one BSB
1 Beastlord
1 Great Bray Shaman
1 Bray Shaman

40 gor with AHW
40 Bestigor
60 ungor
4 chariots
2x6 minotaur
1 Ghorgon

I keep wanting to drop the Ungor since they aren't great but they look good painted.

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on April 26, 2012, 08:37:06 PM
How does the gorgon hold up?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on April 26, 2012, 09:10:52 PM
Not great, but I enjoy the model I made!  To be honest, minotaur are much better choices.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on April 27, 2012, 03:42:06 AM
Ai, I figured as much. I have a half made one sitting around somewhere. Hard to find the enthusiasm to finish it  :icon_sad:.

I don't mean to be a whiner but I am gonna, I still have no idea what they were thinking!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 17, 2012, 05:09:34 PM
I am putting together some old gors (from the joint box) and I can't find any arms for them for if you want to use shields. Am I missing something or does one just have to cut weapon holding arms to make them?
 :?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 17, 2012, 05:55:57 PM
You cut the weapon off the arm and put the shield on the hand.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 17, 2012, 10:24:41 PM
That's interesting. I have never had any other set where you have had to remove something if you wanted to use a provided option. Did they just forget to include them or something?

In case you are worried, I am just planning on doing the odd one for variation. Not a whole unit.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 17, 2012, 11:06:46 PM
It was a rarity but no it was intentional! They fit perfecting over the hand
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 17, 2012, 11:23:17 PM
Well at least now I can stop looking! Thanks.

Thinking on being brave and playing beasts on thr mini tourney come Saturday.

I might try out some of the common beasts tactics that I have never used. Ie 206 bsb in a big gor unit and multi shaman herdstone. Never used either item before but I feel like something different and my local group won't complain much ad m being the only beast player, it won't exactly be same old same old for them.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on May 17, 2012, 11:48:55 PM
Gor and bestigor hordes backed with shaman magic is a nice combo.  Just go straight in and hatred rage them to death!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 18, 2012, 06:01:03 PM
So I just came up with a list.Bit iffy, but hey. Right now it generates 3 power dice before anything has been rolled, plus I guess 4 channels and assuming my general does no killing, which would mean even more...


L] Great Brayshaman lore of beasts L3 - talisman of preservation, jagged dagger, steel claws
H] Brayshaman lore of shadows L1 - shard of herdstone
H] Brayshaman lore of shadow L1
H] Brayshaman lore of shadow L1
H] Wargor BSB - beast banner, h.a, sh, gnarled hide

C] 48 Gors with command - ahw
C] 40 Ungors with command
C] 6 Raiders
C] 6 Raiders
C] 11 Gors - ahw

S] 5 Minotaurs inc mus and stan - ahw
S] Razorgor
S] Razorgor


What I am wondering is whether I should drop a shaman or keep it like this to go all out. Maybe I also should be looking to find points to make my GBS a level 4. I went with minotaurs as I haven't used them much recently and it seemed like fun.

Really I guess with this army you are just looking to go all guns blazing gung ho and hex them to a quivering wreck, then making carving them up an easy task...

In theory...

Oh the little gor unit is some protection for the shamans. I am unsure what the common protection methods are and whether you'd want to keep the shamans out of the unit but close by for the LOS or shove them all in the unit. *shrug*

Or I suppose I could be weird and put them in the raider unit.  :|
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 20, 2012, 01:09:55 AM
Just got back from playing. It was certainly interesting. I will do a more indepth posr tomorrow about what worked and what did not so much work...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 20, 2012, 01:03:14 PM
Ok, so I went with the list as planned. We got in two games in the end as it was getting on to 8pm by the time everyone was done with the second.

My first game was vs Ogres. The guy had barely played Fantasy in the new edition and this was his first game with his ogres. Sounds like it should have been a walk in the park... but those ogre fellows can be mean...

His list was something like:

Tyrant
Firebelly

6 Bulls (inc the tyrant)
6 Bulls with ahw
4 leadbelchers (inc the firebelly)
4 leadbelchers
4 Ironguts (Icy banner)

Giant
Ironblaster thing


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/859be57c-8e41-49d1-9bdc-2e432a3f03ea.jpg)

As you can see, the Irongut fellows moved in on my minotaurs. The long and short of it is that even augmented, the minos could not handle the ironguts. That banner made all the difference with the breath attack and my lack of armour letting me down big time.On that same flank you can see more ogres moving through the trees. I was able to distract them and the ironguts with raiders for most of the rest of the game. Surprisingly my mini unit of gors charged the ironguts late game and smashed them silly. I was surprised.

My gorde was facing off against his tyrant's unit. In the turn I got charged, the beast banner + wyssans meant before the ogres even got to strike I had wiped them out to a man, yes 18 succesful wounds. The tyrant fled and I sneak charged him to make sure he left the table. Alas this left my gors out of position and the rest of his army, a little wiser to their damage potential spent the rest of the game getting out of their way!

The ungors were on my right flank and took the brunt of his missile fire. They were brutalised from afar and then indeed from up close. But I suppose they filled the role of cannon fodder. I kept pit of shades with one of my shamans and I think it was a mistake. The stupid scatter messed it up every time bar one when it could have killed the giant... but sadly he passed his initiative. I know people would claim it is a great spell for taking out low I high wound models like ogres, but frankly, it is so unreliable and takes so many dice away from my other shaman that I wished I had hung on for 3 miasmas.

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/48441cab-3c84-432b-99aa-8d39c874778e.jpg)

At the end of the game I beat him, but only by a measly 150 points or something, so it really felt like more of a lucky escape. Very fun game though, he was a friendly guy and did pretty good for a first showing.

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/90818325-f778-43ab-ada2-783527406ac3.jpg)

So onto game 2. Vampire Counts...


His list was something like:

Master Necromancer on Corpse Cart
Vampire
Vampire

100 Zombies
40 Skeletons
20 Dire Wolves
8 Black Knights
Varghulf (is that the lone monster one, I forget)

We played Dawn Attack and I rolled well over 50% of my army on to one flank. People kept saying how great that was but to be honest, I like space to work in. Putting units behind other units is something I really dislike...

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/5efb0d47-114d-4261-90a0-ab6b0a0c917b.jpg)

He had more flexability with how to set up but stuck most of his stuff to counter mine. To sum up, things went badly. He summoned a unit of skeletons right on the hill and I tried to charge in with my gors and minotaurs. Only the minos made it and so they were stranded by themselves. They were then charged by the zombies. Now I will say that with frenzy and wyssans they made a paste of the zombies, but zombie paste against 100 is still not enough and he had his BSB in the unit who had red fury which meant he was cutting down my minos faster than I could do enough damage. I won the first two rounds of combat, but alas he killed them then.

So it was up to my gors to save the day once more. They had to take on the combined might of the zombies and skeletons, with two vamps and a corpse cart egging them on. What was bad was that they were taking fear tests on 3 dice with -1 LD due to some stupid items the vamp had which seriously cut my power. Nevertheless they managed to munch through the whole zombie unit which was some kind of miracle and then the round after started munching through half the skeletons. I even managed to finally kill the BSB (who had passed like 4 or 5 parry saves to survive his last wound!). I had one great turn where I killed about 20 zombies which combat rezzed the rest of them and the varghulf who had flown into my rear and half the skellies too. Glorious stuff.

But alas while all this was going on, my guys were dying. WS 1 is going to catch up with you and my general eventually succumbed to vampire attacks and I was failing primal fury tests due to my -1 LD.  Plus his guys were getting ASF from the corpse cart I guess which was bad. All in all, my tonnes of attacks were getting weaker and weaker and he was managing to turn the tide. He did so in the end, and broke my gors, running them down.  That was game over.

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/b5ecc9f1-721f-4e49-afad-c71b75067f97.jpg)

His Black Knights had worked their way through my ungors and wizards. I just couldn't hide them well enough. My mini gor unit excelled itself again, first charging and splattering the dire wolf bus, then charging into a new raised unit of skellies and mashing them up. But the game was well and truly over. They were the last guys on my army standing at the end. I lost 2200pts to 1200pts. Not a massacre on paper, but on the table definitely so.


It was a good game but I don't know if I could say it was all fun. He just kept having rules that totally messed with me. His vampires were nigh unkillable and I couldn't get at the corpse cart. If my gors had made it on the initial charge and both units followed up into the zombies, perhaps the game might have gone different. Not only would I had dispatched them much faster but my minos would have survived and been able to chase his corpse cart or helped with the skellies. I don't think it was a mistake so much as bad luck. It was not a long charge.

But that vamp with the -1 LD 3 dice fear tests was what really sucked the life out of my game.



Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on May 20, 2012, 01:20:07 PM
Unit Conclusions:

Gorde - Rocked in every way. They had a lot of points in them, but they were meat grinding maniacs! So hard to kill and so many attacks. Their only real issue was maneuverability but hey, there is a price for hording. A lot of the time they were S5 T5 and that is just silly!  :evil:

Ungors - Eh. I was a little disappointed. These guys have been a good hold up unit for me before. I probably have myself to blame though. With my gors of rampaging, these guys quickly fell out of the safety bubble...

Raiders - Very good. For their points, they were excellent. They distracted way more than their worth and it is nice to have a unit that is so easily expendable. Plus they had one volley in my first game where they took out a whole ogre. Good shooting chaps!

Minos - These guys did not do it for me this time. They hit like a train, in the second game I briefly had them up to frenzy +1. But much like a train, when they get derailed, they get splattered everywhere. I consider them direct rivals to bestigors and to be honest, I think the bestis would have felt a lot more durable. Exchanging my initiative bonus for the extra point of strength and armour save would have actually made a huge difference.

Razorgors - For 55 points it is hard to complain that these guys didn't do much. One of them held up a giant for a turn in my first game. Due to deployment issues, they were unable to fulfil their primary roll as bonus hits in combat and swiftstride pursuers, but they filled a second roll of threatening and baiting away. So a good day for them, if not an honour-filled one.

BSB - Nice. Beast Banner, I see why people like it. Stick him on the side of the horde and he won't get hit much. Just his +1 St and Combat Res was worth every point. I don't think he ever swung in combat, but he still was one of my most vital players.

L1 Shamans - Not happy. I honestly did not have much luck with the shard. With it being stationary, it makes them vulnerable to fast armies that get into you. Dire wolves and black knights are not what you want to see. Or anything ogre. I was unable to make much of the extra dice as I was often running away from stuff getting too close. The way things can reform after combat now makes protecting these guys pretty tough. Also if I run multiple shamans again, I need at least one of them to be death. Miasma is all well and good, but I seriously could have used at least one tool in my army to frighten characters and I didn't have it.

GBShaman - Good and bad. Beasts level 3 in a beast army, yes. His spell casting rocked. Using him as a fighty character who relied on getting kills in close combat to boost his magic. No. I would rather have a beastlord in the army too for the leadership increase and fighting prowess. The shaman was rubbish in combat and with four channels and a herdstone, how many extra dice does one really need?!


So overall, the changes I would make are, bestis for minos, Cut the magic boosting items out and put a beastlord in.

Also I missed my chariots but hey there are only so many points to go round...  :-P
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - mini battle reports!
Post by: phillyt on May 20, 2012, 01:50:09 PM
I have dropped the herdstone shard myself.  Never really liked it.

I would beef the gor unit into a horde, either leaving it as is or adding 10 more models.

Likewise, taking a gorebull for the minotaur unit will be a big help.  Starts them frenzied and cuts down on the attacks they have coming in on them.  I have had a great deal of luck with a doombull.

I am not sure of your points but I can tell you what I dispensed with, ungor.  They just aren't worth it.

Where are your chariots?  I run one per 500 points.  They would have wrecked the ironguts that gave you trouble.  I run them in pairs or just link one to a  unit for support.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - mini battle reports!
Post by: Siberius on May 20, 2012, 02:25:00 PM
I agree with most of what you said, though I really miss hatred when attacking with the minos. I had turns with my gorde where I was rolling 40 attacks and missing like 2 after rerolls. I think I like hatred over frenzy big time.

I wonder if you are right about the ungors. Maybe I could take them out, beef up my mini gor herd and chariots.

To be honest, after the way both units of gors performed I really just want to take an army full of just them! Multiple gor hordes may not be subtle or versatile but they hang around and mess people up big time!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - mini battle reports!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on May 20, 2012, 10:19:55 PM
I agree with most of what you said, though I really miss hatred when attacking with the minos. I had turns with my gorde where I was rolling 40 attacks and missing like 2 after rerolls. I think I like hatred over frenzy big time.

I wonder if you are right about the ungors. Maybe I could take them out, beef up my mini gor herd and chariots.

To be honest, after the way both units of gors performed I really just want to take an army full of just them! Multiple gor hordes may not be subtle or versatile but they hang around and mess people up big time!

I love gors. Whenever I use multiple bray shamans (I usually take two lvl 2's) they always use lore of beasts to spam the basic +1 S&T spell, which turns Gor Herds into buzzsaws. I've torn apart chaos warrior blocks with those Gorsaws, especially when the beast banner is present.

With minos I agree with Philly. AHW and a Gorbull to start them off frenzied usually means death to any other monstrous infantry unit. I once killed an entire unit of 8 Ironguts before they ever got to attack. Don't forget the extra impact hits you get with the Gorbull. Give him the Axes of Korgor and he'll be unleashing a massive amount of hurt. I've also had success detaching my minotaur characters to serve as roving monster/character hunters.


 I also need more chariots. I have never regretted fielding a ton of Tuskgor chariots.

I agree in dropping the herd stone and the GBS in favor of a Beastlord. Beastlord is where it's at.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - mini battle reports!
Post by: phillyt on May 21, 2012, 11:18:38 AM
I still like the Great shaman though.  I use one of those and a 2nd level shaman.

Chariots are a must!  We get them as troop, use them!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - mini battle reports!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on May 21, 2012, 11:21:04 AM
Aren´t they even T of 5? I think they are the best chariots in the game.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - mini battle reports!
Post by: phillyt on May 21, 2012, 11:47:43 AM
No t4. Orc chariots are better, but they aren't core.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - mini battle reports!
Post by: Siberius on June 19, 2012, 08:46:15 AM
So my LGS is starting a 12 week campaign on Sunday. I have agreed to play beasts as no one else is. Should be interesting. I will probably update with how it us goinh in here.

First up I have to make a warlord, no point limit who will be my overall commander. I will post a few ideas later.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - mini battle reports!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 19, 2012, 11:49:30 AM
So my LGS is starting a 12 week campaign on Sunday. I have agreed to play beasts as no one else is. Should be interesting. I will probably update with how it us goinh in here.

First up I have to make a warlord, no point limit who will be my overall commander. I will post a few ideas later.

I'm going to try to get a game in this weekend. Even with putting my chickenriders together, I miss my beasts.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - mini battle reports!
Post by: Siberius on June 21, 2012, 12:24:21 AM
Alrighty, so the idea of the campaign is to make a Lord level character (the only Lord you can use through the whole thing!) complete with magic items etc, no points limit (within the book limitations). So yes, one could use a Dragon Rider.

Course, the first half of the campaign will be 1250-1750pts so I am unsure as to how sensible such a points sink would be, though that is not really for me to worry about as our lord choices are pretty straight forward.

Though the Doombull tempted me for 2 seconds, I am putting it aside. He gets no shaman magic and no BL ld. The two things that attract me most about the other characters. Sure he can pound stuff in combat, but he is also a more vulnerable target and of course, your grand warlord dying would not be cool.


So to my Beastlord options. Maybe this:

BL - Obsidian Blade, Other Tricksters Shard, H.A, Sh, Ramhorm Helm, Gnarled Hide, Luckstone (254pts)

Pretty much kitted out to mangle enemy characters but with a very respectable save (though no ward....)

BL - Sword of Anti-Heroes, Armour of Destiny, Gnarled Hide, Luckstone, Sh (248pts)

Gonna be a brute in large combats with plenty of characters, plus this time he is nicely warded up for a 2+ 4+ save.

BL - Taisman of Preservation, H.A, Sh, Ramhorn Helm, Gnarled Hide, Other Tricksters Shard, Biting Blade (254pts)

As much save as is possible, with less emphasis on combat prowess, but still dangerous in a challenge.


Ok that's all I got for if I took a Beastlord. I am really tempted by this, as Ld is always an issue for us, plus I feel he is safer in combat than a Bray Shaman is from potentially misfiring magical issues... talking of which, some possible options for a GBS...

GBS - L4 - Talisman of Preservation, Jagged Dagger, Steel Claws, Uncanny Senses (335pts)

Able to stay in a combat unit and lead from the front, though not as able as a BL. If he is in Bestigors I guess I could give them Standard of Discipline to boost his LD, though not pretty if he explodes...

I can't really find a more exciting combo than that for a GBS. If I were to make him try and avoid combat, there are no super Arcane or Enchanted Items I'd really love him to have so he'd likely end up with the 4+ ward and some small arcane stuff. Maybe even the misscast reroll thing.



So that's my choices. I like the potential magic dominance from the GBS, but the lack of combat kick-buttyness and Ld is really making me go back and forth. Both could be very cool. As the campaign goes on, the more you use your Lord in battle (you can choose not to), the more upgrades he gets which is nice (though it won't be when the Slann guys starts getting his...).

The armies we have signed up so far are Empire, WoC, O&G, Dwarfs, High Elves, Lizards, Bretonnians and Vampires. Quite a mix, nothing to really make me sway either way.

(ps, for the first couple of weeks, you can take your Lord at half his points, which is both cool and scary - due to others doing it! Also, if he is slain on the field, you roll on a table with a 1/6 chance of him dying and if he doesn't die, he will get some kind of injury, much like the Necromunda tables)

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: phillyt on June 21, 2012, 02:11:42 AM
I would go with the second setup, though I generally drop the magic sword and shield and just snag a great weapon for my BL.  Makes him very cheap.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 21, 2012, 04:31:01 AM
I concur with Philly. Plus, when you get your BSB, you want to be able to put the gnarled hide on him, for the 2+ armor save with the Beast Banner.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Siberius on June 21, 2012, 08:34:50 AM
So you guys like the beastlord over the great shaman?

Goodly points on what you might take off him, but bear in mimd that this guy is like the focus of the campaign and so too much points are not something that is really gonna be an issue for me like it might for say lizards or chaos. Also I don't think there is such a thing as too much protection for him...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 21, 2012, 09:08:28 AM
So you guys like the beastlord over the great shaman?

Goodly points on what you might take off him, but bear in mimd that this guy is like the focus of the campaign and so too much points are not something that is really gonna be an issue for me like it might for say lizards or chaos. Also I don't think there is such a thing as too much protection for him...

I'm more worried about not protecting your BSB enough, and you cannot put a price on LD9 over LD8. If he's the only lord you can take, then he's your only real option. You know what might be a good idea? The 2+ armor save armor, the Talisman of Preservation, and a great weapon.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Siberius on June 21, 2012, 07:28:57 PM
Ai, I also though that for instance vs dwarfs with the BL I could just ignore shamans as you can never cast anything anyways and sink thr points into more troops, which you can't really benefit from the other way round.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Finlay on June 22, 2012, 02:17:30 PM
if the lord dies in any game he is gone from the campaign? I’d be too worried about sending my shaman to hell! It seems to happen so much more than it should according to averages.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Siberius on June 22, 2012, 09:00:15 PM
Exactly. I have been lucky avoiding the warp, bur out of the last 8 games I have had two opponents lose their caster to it first turn!

But he is not auto dead. You roll on a serious injury chart not too disimilar to say Necromunda. Death is I believe a 1/6 chance. Still, you don't want to tempt fate too much...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Siberius on June 25, 2012, 10:48:38 PM
Hmm the Herdstone advice is go with the gbs. Then plonk him in bestigors with the standard of discipline...

It is a seriously tough decision.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on June 26, 2012, 02:16:29 AM
Hmm the Herdstone advice is go with the gbs. Then plonk him in bestigors with the standard of discipline...

It is a seriously tough decision.

They're wrong.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: phillyt on June 26, 2012, 12:49:11 PM
Well, that certainly is a good choice too, though the BL in a unit with the standard is LD10, so there is that too.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Siberius on June 26, 2012, 01:58:28 PM
The question is how I will fare vs Slaan, Grey seers and Vampire Lords really.

Can I survive that kind of onslaught without a L4 caster?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on June 26, 2012, 02:00:02 PM
There won´t be much difference if you get +2 or +4 to dispel but I still would take the lvl 4 with the banner of +1 ld.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Siberius on June 26, 2012, 02:44:09 PM
Fandir, gimme some good reasons...

I am so back and forth  :-P.

One thing I am wondering is whether the herdstone tactic can work at all without a high level wizard. Say I chuck a few L1s around the stone, maybe 2 or 3 at low points that generates me say 3-4 extra dice a turn maybe. Is that enough to get some of those wyssans/miasmas off? I guess it likely will against anyone who isn't bringing a L3-4 wizard...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: phillyt on June 27, 2012, 05:26:46 PM
I find  a combat beastman and a supporting pair of shaman work fine.  I use the beastlord sometimes, but I found it better to take the doombull and a beastlord instead in most cases.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: - help me!
Post by: Siberius on June 29, 2012, 09:47:18 PM
After all this I just realised something...

It must be my GBS... fluffwise it only makes sense as he is somewhat of a John the Baptist figure to my Beastlord...

In the end I don't feel too bad about the decision, seems like both options were actually pretty nifty...

More news once the campaign really kicks in.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: phillyt on July 01, 2012, 12:08:58 PM
I still adore my doom bull, but if you aren't using minotaur units, he is a tough sell.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on July 01, 2012, 02:32:51 PM
Yeah, I will almost certainly be using bestigors for the most part and just throwing minos in for the odd surprise.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on July 10, 2012, 05:10:46 AM
Tournament on the 28th. Going to use my beasts. 2500 points.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on July 10, 2012, 03:24:34 PM
Time for a Campaign Update!

First off, the map as of Turn 2, which just turned into turn 3, but I will get to that...

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Campaign%20Liz%20vs%20Beasts/CampaignMap.jpg)

I am hovering right in the middle there. This turn I was attacked by some pesky lizards, we fought a 1500pt battle, which I report in the Bat Reps section.




And some info on my Warlord:

The Dark Hand

-Great Bray Shaman

M -WS -BS -S -T -W -I -A -LD
5 - 5 -  3 -  4 -  5 - 3 - 4 - 2 - 8

Talisman of Preservation, Uncanny Senses, Fencer's Blades, Jagged Dagger



(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/170246_10150129862956133_7120282_o.jpg)


Little is known of the Dark Hand, including the origins of his name. The people of the Empire began to call him that, though none know why, none bar him anyway. He planted that seed, knowing that it was his destiny to be the herald of a soon to emerge Beastlord.

And so he travels the Old World gathering a horde of Beasts in anticipation of the arrival of this new scourge. What draws most fear from the common folk is the whispers of how fast he travels from one side of land to the other. It is said that he knows the secret paths of the Wood Elves and uses them at will.

All that is certain is that he is enemy to all races and that he must be stopped before he can fulfil his ambitions, for as powerful as he is, who can imagine the terror that the Beast whom he will serve will bring...


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on July 10, 2012, 03:30:13 PM
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43212.0 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43212.0)

^^^ Battle Report links ^^^
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Cannonofdoom on July 15, 2012, 05:22:22 AM
Played a couple games tonight against an Orc player.

Highlights of first game were my harpies holding and then killing to a gob a unit of 8 squig hoppers with a great cave squig riding gob hero, my 40 gor herds absorbing multiple charges (thank goodness for Crown of Command) and eventually breaking and running down Boar Boy biguns and a megaspider. I won that game.

Next game was highlighted by his BSB on chariot charging alone into one of my 40 gor herds with my BSB (beast banner) and a lvl2. I challenged him with my champion, who he handily killed. With the multitude of wounds he did he won combat by 1. For my re-rollable break test on LD9 I promptly rolled 11 then 11, and the entire unit was run down. My general's unit which was beside it, rolled a 10 for their panic test, and came within an inch of running off the table. This was turn two. I count myself proud to have pulled out a draw after that inauspicious beginning.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on July 15, 2012, 10:47:05 PM
Great work on pulling out the draw from that position.

Beasts are surprisingly good at getting back into games. I was an inch charge roll from turning my last game with lizards to a win instead of a loss... oh fickle dice!


This week I have three battles in the campaign. I decided to go aggro!

Two vs Demons and one vs Lizards.

I should at least get to play the lizard one. If last week was anything to go by who knows if I will get to play the Demon battles...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Darknight on July 23, 2012, 03:09:46 PM
Just jumping in here to point out a new release from Reaper's "Bones" line (which is an inexpensive plastic-resin material line). http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/77013/latest/77013

(http://www.reapermini.com/graphics/gallery/4/77013_w_1.jpg)

It is only $3.49, which isn't a bad price at all. There is no scale shown, but I think it would probably work well in a beastman army. At the very least, it is less than $5!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on July 25, 2012, 03:19:01 AM
Also, new plastic shaman out in August...

 :evil:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on July 25, 2012, 01:18:45 PM
It is even less than 4 $  :engel:

well done so far with your beastly beasts.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on August 01, 2012, 07:02:17 PM
So Turn  4 of the Campaign:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/bb28e579-2a13-410d-920c-9c84a2516e3b.jpg)

Ok, terrible picture, but remember my territory is in the middle. The large forest section. My pins are green so they are really hard to make out. The main thing to note is that the yellow pin of the Lizards encroached into my territory. I retaliated by sneaking an army over the mountains and attacking his watchtower in the swampy area. You might just be able to make out a small dark blob in the bottom of that bluey zone. That's me!

I won't do a full battle report of the game we played as it mainly involved lots of cat and mouse. My plan was to get in the tower and keep brushing him away with my other units until he didn't have enough turns left to force me out.

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/4f0cfab3-32b3-4782-9ee5-7592bb97c00b.jpg)
He declined to place a unit in the tower which was a pleasant surprise. He had decided he would not be able to hold off my attacking unit. I personally think he was underestimating the staying power of saurus. So I set up my gorde in the middle, flanked by my bestihorde and planned to get in there asap!

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/869ad8a3-3d19-4bee-a941-41c236fd15f6.jpg)
This is at turn 3. My Gorde is in the tower and my other units are trying to be as much of a pest as possible. My GBS spent a great deal of energy buffing me up and hexing his temple guard in an effort to make any fight really good in my favour. It worked pretty well and he was affraid to charge my wyssans bestigors with his cursed Saurus. I don't fully blame him to be honest!

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/27968aaf-1f6c-40b9-938a-91398d2013dc.jpg)
Eventually his units were able to ignore what chaff I had left and surround the tower but his time was severely running out. Oh the other reason his temple guard aren't moving is that my constant cursing of them meant that they would be dangerous terrain testing if they charged out of that wood.

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/b344ddef-8592-4022-935f-677e8c3a4233.jpg)
At the end of the battle, my Bestigors had been flank charged and run down, alas with my GBS inside, meaning that he had to test to see if he was injured. Thankfully he escaped the turn unscathed. Only a character point lost which puts him on -2! No upgrades in the near future for him methinks...

My gors never saw combat. We fought out a what if round vs his Temple Guard incase they had one more turn to charge (Game ended on Turn5) but my Gors were beaten but held easily due to my BSB being inside. I probably could have taken 2 or 3 rounds before things got really scary...

So with that victory I owned the fort at the bottom of his kingdom. The question was, how would he react next Campaign Turn....
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on August 05, 2012, 08:13:27 PM
Yesterday I played hopefully my last battle vs Lizards for a while. He refused to let me keep my tower and so swept down on it to try and re-establish his territory. I initially thought I would be down 1500pts to 1250, but as it turns out, I was able to bring 2000pts so I was actually at an advantage!

My plan was to garrison the watchtower with 20 ungors. Enough to fight off the initial attack and hold on rerollable stubborn and then when his unit bounced off, throw my 50 gor horde complete with general and BSB into the tower.

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Campaign%20Liz%20vs%20Beasts/IMAG0384.jpg)
To act as distractions I threw in a giant (treeman), some minos and a bunch of annoying chaff.

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Campaign%20Liz%20vs%20Beasts/IMAG0389.jpg)
Considering I had the herdstone, my magic was a bit pathetic all game, mainly due to rolling one big and one small dice for magic winds pretty much every turn so I never got way ahead. Also his chameleons snuck up on my 2 shamans near the herdstone... Might have been better to have put them in one of the ungor units but I forgot his skinks were still left to deploy!

So above, you can see my plan going pretty well to plan. In the end, he decided that his best damage potential against me was the Stegadon. I differ in my view on this. Saurus with their 2 attacks seems like a lot more being punched at them, but hey.

By the end of the battle only about half of my gorde was dead. My champion had almost even managed to withstand a challenge with the Steg on it's first charge!

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Campaign%20Liz%20vs%20Beasts/IMAG0394.jpg)
And so it was that I held onto the watchtower, even though I was totally overwhelmed by the lizards.

It's an odd scenario that I think I have come to terms with how to win. Most people I play against seem to lose focus and worry about stuff dying or killing my stuff. If I have that tower though I don't care what cost it comes at!

My GBS, the Dark Hand, not only survived the game for his first time but also survived a miscast which give him a character point, which puts me back up to a mighty -1!  :-P



In other news, I declared an alliance with my next door Orcs in that hope that we can together put some punishment onto the dwarfs who are getting too big for their boots and an alliance of Bretonnia down below us... at some point I am sure one of us will do the nasty deed and betray the other, but we'll see.

We have a battle this week against Dwarfs, who attacked the Orcs and I sent one of my armies to support him which will put us at 2000 I think and him at maybe 1500, not 100% sure on that. I plan to send in the ever reliable Gorde as my support army...

I will try and get a shot of the map right now this week as things are getting interesting. Most of the non-claimed territories are being snatched up already which means people are building more armies and there are more real people vs real people games...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Darkanian on August 06, 2012, 01:53:27 PM
It had mainly come down to the fact I was  going to for the most part win combat and you were always going to be stubborn.  I just had resigned it to the stegadon had a slightly chance of doing damage with the skink chief and the fact it could still thunderstomp. I agree the saurus had a better chance of making their attacks...but you've seen my to hit rolls with Saurus :P
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on August 06, 2012, 02:35:49 PM
To br honest, getting that Slaan closer and dwellering me might have actually been the best bet. I think you had planned that for a while hadn't you?

I never really feel like I win a proper victory in those tower games...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Darkanian on August 06, 2012, 02:51:36 PM
I had attempted to, one time being I ahd charged and forgot I can't direct damage into close combat. The other time I was jsut outside of the 12 inch range, so I ahd to cast the upgraded version and missed the cast by 1. No matter what though you would have been rolling on leadership/stubborn/ and Battle standard
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on August 07, 2012, 06:41:36 PM
Dwellers was definitely my biggest worry. If you had left the tower unattacked and put everything into getting a couple of dwellers off I may have been in big trouble. I'd be looking at maybe 15 or so gors left with likely my gen or bsb or both gone. I think saurus could have mopped that up pretty fast and I really had nothing to oust them...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Darkanian on August 08, 2012, 03:09:31 PM
Ah well, live and learn :3
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on August 10, 2012, 12:18:05 AM
Wolfy Griess is gonna try a similar thing against Ron on Sunday... I'm hoping it works..!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on August 16, 2012, 05:51:32 PM
Here's things as of Turn 6...

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/b8740a8a-8992-407d-ab14-cd198e308e55.jpg)

For some reason I can't get it better than that  :|.

Not that you can really see what's going on, but my three armies are doing this:

One army is down beneath the central forest, helping my newly declared allies, the Orcs to attack a Dwarf city.

Another army has backed up just out of the Lizard's lands which are in the mountain area just about my central forest.

My third army is attacking a village in the region to my westm, having secured the watchtower there last turn. Alas, I was forced to roll off to see if I won it and due to the unfortunate table we use, I drew and was forced to retreat again.

The battle vs the Dwarfs though meant me sending in a Gor Horde with BSB to support an Orc army...



(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/ac6e46f8-b52c-43be-976c-cafcf1906e1e.jpg)
This is during turn one. As you can see, the savage orcs and arak charged full steam ahead to try and get into the dwarfs. I was coming in on turn 2...


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/58909946-a409-4294-809b-1cb1152ffa66.jpg)
So I arrive and all I can do is head as fast as possible to support them. The spider runs into and eats a flame cannon, which ends up putting it face to face with the Dwarf Lord and his unit. We have 4 boltthowers, 2 doomdivers and 2 rocklobbers pounding away at his lines. At this point it is actually the boltthrowers doing the most damage, making dwarf kebabs all over the place!


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/6f6d7bbc-a91a-4e50-8f26-8b00bb57860f.jpg)
The Dwarf Lord beats off the spider, which runs away, soon to return and be killed for good. The savage orcs whoop the other dward unit and turn around to help me take on the Lord's unit.


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/651b4479-fae7-4d6a-9c8c-f64064750f03.jpg)
This is late game. I have charged the Dwarf Lord who due to some later to be found out shennanigans, should have fled and most likely been run down this turn, winning us the game, but instead held. The Dwarf unit to my flank charged in, then countercharged by the Savage Orcs, who soon after fled away again leaving me to face 4 combat phases of break tests on Ld 7 until in the very last roll of the game, I rolled 11 twice in a row to run off the board and let the Dwarf player win by a measly 12pts... it was painful...


I was really pleased with how my gors performed but boy did they need that beast banner badly... S3 was just not making any kind of dent in the Dwarfs. Still should have won though if he hadn't insisted on something that turned out to be wrong...



So we retreated from battle and it was on to Turn 7...

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g97/vaskel/Snapbucket/bd2c1a9f-c1d5-4890-afd3-dfda5fd3148a.jpg)
This turn, my ally and I decided to attack the same Dwarf city, only this time I will have the main force and he will be the supporting army.

I am also being attacked in my tower in the mountains by the Imperial player (my brother) so I sent in an army to reinforce it.

Lastly, I once more attacked that pesky village to my west. Unfortunately apparently so did the new Empire player (yellow pins near the bottom) and the Demons! So we have some kind of three way battle in theory!


I made a battle plan with my Orc friend last night which made our army come out as such:

My GBS The Dark Hand
L2 Shaman with Herdstone
BSB

50 Bestigors with totem of rust
3 small raider units
3 individual razorgors
2 chariots

3 small wolfrider units
3 small spiderrider units
A low level goblin shaman


The idea being to use the Bestigors to get in there and dismantle his army one unit at a time, using the little units to distract, crash into war machines or support attack my main unit if neccessary.

It's a bit nuts, but if I can get across the field relateivly intact, the pain I can unleash on his units will be horrific I reckon. No armour saves all round and any miasmas I get through, just a juicy bonus. Not to mention the potential of mindrazor, pit of shades or withering....

We play on Saturday... wish me luck!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on August 20, 2012, 05:45:17 AM
The Bat Rep for this battle is now up in the Battleground section or whatever it is called!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on December 05, 2013, 12:14:04 AM
So um, anyone still playing beasts much these days? I don't think I've used them since this campaign! I was looking in this thread as there is talk of a new campaign starting in the new year. Not that I will be taking beasts, but I wanted to check out the maps etc whilst we try to decide what we are going to do.

I think there are a few things making me not want to use them again.

I used them last time.
I got a bit burned out on them.
Whilst I love the feel of the way the army works, I have to admit they look rather shabby compared to all the options in the new books.
Even in Empire who I play to take, the not so good options are not as bad as the bad options in this book.
They pretty much have no rare section.
I think if they had more viable monsters it'd open up a whole new way of playing them, but they don't so it is infantry or die!
Too dependent on magic. I know other armies depend on it too, but with no monsters/artillery, they lack a lot of answers.

Now I don't just play to win, infact I often like to take the lesser used units in books, but with Empire, Dark Elves and Orcs all having the new style books, the old books just look a bit sad.

Ah well. Looks like won't be a new one until 9th edition either, which may not be the end of the world. Being the last in the old edition didn't work out so well!

I'll probably still just be using them in the odd for fun battle right now...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: where the Beasts gather...
Post by: Siberius on March 07, 2014, 01:37:47 AM
Got round to using my beasts again today, running the much touted Minobus style. 6 minotaurs with a Doombull and two Gorebulls.

(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1779085_10152298506556133_1072559638_n.jpg)

Got it into combat intact, albeit with Temple Guard to the front and Saurus in the flank.

It is brutal though, so many attacks and then increasing each turn. Wiped half the temple guard in the first round taking not much in return due to them having to hit at my characters. Next turn finished off the temple guard and the saurus ran away (amusingly to be killed next turn by flock of doom!). By the end of the game the unit had +4 atks each. Huge killing output.

I don't normally like running all eggs in one basket style lists but I had never tried it. 1200pts tied up in it and against the wrong match ups, say cannons or dwellers, that kind of thing, it could fall apart quick.

I did give one hero the pelt of shadowgave as some semi-protection from magic (not great though as it eats all his magic allowance and only leaves him with light armour). Probably should have just stuck MR3 on him and at least he would have had some save!

But I managed to win the game by the Minotaurs smashing everything in their path and some silly luck (a razorgor running down a steg in combat etc). Looked hairy after my gorde got run down by some saurus and my chariots all bounced off the saurus cav, but I knew as long as the minos survived I had a chance...

Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Siberius on November 11, 2014, 02:59:13 PM
Time to dust off your razorgors and polish your jabberslythes!

Sounds like the new book not only consolidates beasts back in with warriors and demons, but gives us access once more to marks. Whilst I am fuzzy on the specifics, it seems to me that new book or not, Beastmen are once again an entertaining and viable army to run on the battlefield!

What were the main complaints about the current book?

The monsters are rubbish! - Well, in theory we now can run chimeras, or shaggoths! The monster section is back on track!
There is only one/maybe two viable build! - Not any more! All sorts of nonsense can be thought up.
Marks went away! - They're back!

I think the chaos legion will do for beastmen what the Undead Legion did for tomb kings. Bring the variety and tools to be able to play your army in a pretty competitive way, whilst throwing all sorts of crazy options into the ring if you do want to mix in other chaos units. I'm getting quite excited in theory! Much as I love running pure beasts, I won't deny the lure of throwing in a couple of interesting units from the other books!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Finlay on November 11, 2014, 03:02:37 PM
They never should have split them!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Siberius on November 11, 2014, 03:05:28 PM
They never should have split them!

You might be right. I have enjoyed that splitting them gave beasts more units, but then they took away a lot of the monstery stuff and gave it to warriors which didn't seem necessary to me and then gave us some new useless ones instead.  :-P

I've never got round to getting a shaggoth even though it is an amazing model. Perhaps this is the temptation I need to do it!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: DariusZero on November 11, 2014, 03:16:19 PM
This is good rumour, if true. I have enough models from all three to make an army of any kind of combination. How reliable is this rumour?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Siberius on November 11, 2014, 03:21:23 PM
I think it's very reliable. The podcasts I am listening to are discussing it like it is fact and they are usually pretty good about mentioning if it is just rumours.

But having not personally bought any end times stuff myself, I can't say 100%.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Darknight on November 11, 2014, 04:23:53 PM
It would make all kinds of sense.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Siberius on November 11, 2014, 04:41:52 PM
I was going to add that but decided considering it was GW to keep quiet. :-P
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Finlay on November 11, 2014, 04:53:18 PM
a mixed army seems way more interesting to me, but i also think they should have stuck to the old enemy god rules too, so it's more varied but also a bit restricted.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Warlord on November 13, 2014, 04:30:21 AM
I originally bought by Beastmen to make a mixed Hordes and Beasts army.

In the mean time, I never played my beastmen because I never had enough for an army.

Now I'm back in business!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Sig on November 13, 2014, 04:50:16 AM
The Glottkin book does include rules for combined Legions of Chaos. Hopefully it carries over. Agreed they never should have split! Especially not Daemons, they should never have been their own army. I'd be fine with a Beasts + Daemons and a Mortals + Daemons book, but combined is even better.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: TexasYankee on November 13, 2014, 10:23:50 PM
Yes, it's very good. Too good. Indeed, it is downright OP. If an opponent were to allow me to use the Chaos Ascendant rules, I can build a Daemon list that will have the following:

1 - As the Chaos player, I get to choose which of the four chaos gods is Ascendant. I'll choose Nurgle.
2 - My 120 Plaguebearers now lose the Daemonic Instability rule and now have the Unbreakable/Unstable rule. But wait! Since Nurgle is Ascendant, I lose the Unstable rule. Now you have to kill my entire Nurgle army down to a daemon, and they will never break.
3 - Also, now when I roll for Winds of Magic, my Reign of Chaos table has changed so that most of the bad stuff only affects my opponent. Oh, did I role a five? No big deal for all my Nurgle guys, that nasty Tzeentch stuff only affects the enemy on a roll of a six.
4 - Even with a better table now, with the Storm of Chaos rule, every time I roll a double, I can choose it to be a 12, and bring more Plaguebearers onto the table. Not that rolling a double one would mean anything to me anyway, since I no longer have the Unstable rule . . .
5 - Still not enough free guys? How about the new spell (which every Chaos caster now has, Beastman/Warrior/Daemon), Summon Infernal Legion? On a 14+, I get to bring in 100 points worth of homies from the Legion of Chaos List. (17+, 150 points; 20+, 200 points). More Plaguebearers? Don't mind if I do!

Now, understand, the book is VERY specific about the above rules only being in effect if you are using the Chaos Ascendant rules. Even though I play Daemons, Beastmen and Warriors, I would never use this rule, as not only do I think they are OP, but good luck trying to find someone who will play against me once they understand how much of an advantage I have. Most of my buddies already give me shit about the Reign of Chaos table taking units off the board with nothing but a random dice roll, I can just imagine the grief now. No thanks . . .
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Siberius on November 14, 2014, 12:32:06 AM
Maybe you would use them in a thematic game where you are trying to replicate the fact that chaos is so ascendant.

Those rules aside though I am quite excited about what this does specifically for beasts. Both in giving more variety and strength to what they already had and in opening up new (old) units to throw in there. I could actually use my chaos ogres as ogres now!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: TexasYankee on November 14, 2014, 03:45:17 AM
Maybe you would use them in a thematic game where you are trying to replicate the fact that chaos is so ascendant.

Those rules aside though I am quite excited about what this does specifically for beasts. Both in giving more variety and strength to what they already had and in opening up new (old) units to throw in there. I could actually use my chaos ogres as ogres now!

I might use the Chaos Ascendant rules just for my Beastmen . . . now maybe I won't lose my Ghorgon and Cygor at the top of turn 1.  :blush:
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Siberius on November 14, 2014, 08:43:04 AM
I'm guessing not but can monsters take marks? That'd be nice!

I really need to see the full rules. The idea of marking centigors and minotaurs might up their attractiveness slightly.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on November 14, 2014, 08:48:21 AM
I'm guessing not but can monsters take marks? That'd be nice!

I really need to see the full rules. The idea of marking centigors and minotaurs might up their attractiveness slightly.

Beasts never should have lost marks. Khorne Minos used to be amazing.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Siberius on November 14, 2014, 11:14:10 AM
What does khorne mark do these days?

Minos already get stacking frenzy which is scary once you get it going. Think I would be more tempted to mark them nurgle so they might stand a chance of getting into combat...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: TexasYankee on November 14, 2014, 03:13:46 PM
Wait, my bad, monsters cannot take marks. Here's what can:

Beastlord
Doombull
Great Bray-shaman
Wargor
Gorebull
Bray Shaman
Gors
Ungors
Ungor Raiders
Tuskgor Chariot
Minotaurs
Centigors
Bestigors
Razorgor Chariot

Cost of 2 points for Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, 1 for Slaanesh. (10 and 5 points for characters, respectively)

Mark of Khorne = Frenzy
Mark of Tzeentch = 6++, stackable, and Wizards re-roll channel attempts of a 1.
Mark of Nurgle = -1 to hit in close combat
Mark of Slaanesh = auto-pass Fear/Terror/Panic

Primal Fury is still the same, as is Beastmen Ambush. You can also now roll on the Reign of Chaos table (I'll post later) with the same rules as I stated in my previous post.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Siberius on November 14, 2014, 07:39:16 PM
So going by those marks, this is probably how I would mark these things off the top of my head...

Beastlord- tzeentch
Doombull - nurgle
Great Bray-shaman - maybe none assuming you have to take that lore...
Wargor - tzeentch
Gorebull - nurgle
Bray Shaman - non
Gors - hmm, maybe non, don't see much advantage
Ungors - tempted to go tzeentch and get some 5+ parry?
Ungor Raiders - hmm, probably none, maybe slaanesh at so cheap
Tuskgor Chariot- slaanesh
Minotaurs - nurgle
Centigors - maybe khorne for some punch
Bestigors - khorne again maybe, or nurgle
Razorgor Chariot - nurgle


I heard ambush is the same only you can do it with all units, no 1 for 1. Which is actually kind of cool even if it is still way too random!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Cannonofdoom on November 14, 2014, 07:55:12 PM
Gors should always have ahw and khorne for the most possible ST4 attacks (assuming beast banner).
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Siberius on November 14, 2014, 08:40:18 PM
I'm not 100% sure. It's probably good, but I like to run gors in horde and at 2 extra points a model I feel like I would rather get the extra models. For 50 gors which is what I normally run, that is another 100pts that I could be spending on a chariot or some such. The 40 attacks I already get usually seems pretty good at doing the job.

I could see it on bestigor which I run smaller and who come with few attacks already. Extra Str6 attacks, now you are talking!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: TexasYankee on November 14, 2014, 09:47:16 PM
Great Bray-shaman - maybe none assuming you have to take that lore...

Good point, don't see anything so far about that . . . I'll read again.

I heard ambush is the same only you can do it with all units, no 1 for 1. Which is actually kind of cool even if it is still way too random!

Yes, my bad, this is also true. In fact, the way it reads, looks like I can have my entire army ambush if they are all Beastmen that have that rule.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Siberius on November 14, 2014, 10:02:18 PM
Could make for an entertaining battle if not a successful one!  :-P
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: phillyt on November 06, 2017, 09:58:04 PM
How disappointing that the pictures no longer show on this thread...
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: GamesPoet on November 07, 2017, 02:23:36 AM
Yep, definitely a bummer.  Perhaps it can be repaired?
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: phillyt on November 07, 2017, 11:50:38 AM
People would literally have to go back and edit their posts with the new location of the linked images.  Would take forever.  Some of the members on this thread are no longer active while one has passed away.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Warlord on November 08, 2017, 06:50:20 AM
I was looking for this thread the other month, but couldn’t remember the name of it.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: phillyt on November 08, 2017, 11:54:45 AM
I had to go to the stats sections and look at the most viewed posts to hunt it down.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: GamesPoet on November 08, 2017, 03:19:43 PM
Search function doesn't seem to be working well.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Gankom on November 09, 2017, 04:57:45 PM
 :icon_sad: This is one of the threads that got me lurking on the board years and years ago. I remember enjoying the banter back and forth and thinking 'this looks like a fun place'.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: phillyt on November 09, 2017, 09:18:23 PM
Its one of the great ones!  This one spans the later half of the Golden Age of WE.

I like to poke through some of those old threads to remind myself of how great this place was in its prime.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: GamesPoet on November 19, 2017, 09:27:00 PM
Unearthing this thread, along with my "black box" of 3 Minotaurs and 10 Beastmen has been fun!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: scrubber on November 20, 2017, 06:02:44 PM
I may just have a copy of one of the pictures.

(https://i.imgur.com/N1MZgcN.jpg)
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: Artobans Ghost on November 20, 2017, 06:33:28 PM
I want minotaurs!!
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: scrubber on November 20, 2017, 10:36:02 PM
This may be the link to all the photographs.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23241
Title: Re: Minotaurs
Post by: Cannonofdoom on November 26, 2017, 09:12:45 PM
All of my Beasts, which started as a detachment to my Undecided Mortal Army, a single herd, a Wargor, and 3 Minotaurs.

Then I got a Doombull, and had to build a Mino Army. I slapped some wings on a minotaur to add a second character to my Mino Army, as an exalted demon.

The Minotaur banner reads: "Eat Mor Humins", a la Chic-fil-a.

(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r316/cannonofdoom/Beasties.jpg~original)

I fixed my pictures I think. Apparently adding ~original to the end of the url makes it appear.
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: GamesPoet on November 26, 2017, 09:21:29 PM
That's very good to know, thank you! :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!
Post by: phillyt on November 27, 2017, 11:45:51 AM
I am going to make beastmen gangers for Necromunda!