Topic: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!

[Pyre]

I've posted a lot of this stuff on some other site but I'll mention what I think they should do here again.

1- Give herd the option of EHW, GW, or LA/SH.  This would let herds become true core infantry, and fill in all kinds of other roles as well.
2- Let ungors by throwing spears.  Gives small herds a harassment ability as well as making it more dangerous for lightly armored cavalry to charge them.
3- Give Bestigors shields and GWs, knock their points down to about ten, and give them the option to become raiders at around +4 points.
4- Hounds should basically become the hounds from the old Ulric list.  (no panic, move through woods, fast cavalry) but not count as core minimum.
5- Move centigors to core and give them the option to become fast cavalry or take heavy armor for a few more points.  Fast/medium cav in one unit entry!
6- I don't think chariot should move to special, but should require a herd per chariot.
7- LEAVE THE MINOTAURS ALONE!!
8- Add some more specialized Special units (scouting gors, a unit with bray staves, a monstrous chariot).  I have ideas, but nothing concrete.
9- Make Shaggoths worth taking at all.
10- Fix psychology issues for herds.  This constitutes another entire post...
11- Add more cheap banners and fill in the magic item list!
12- Fix the ranking up "issue" in the Raiders rule



Pyre

[phillyt]

What about the leadership issues?  Due you think it is still reasonible to have LD8 for beastlords?

I can see the argument, but as a stand alone, I would like to see the LD addressed.

I agree with all of your suggestions, but are you still for mixed herds?

Phil

[Siberius]

Now, we're next right? Or was there something coming along before us? I forget now in all the excitement about Druchii...


I like your ideas Pyre. Like the idea especially about having little ungor throwing spear units... sounds fluffy to me and seeing as chaos is all split now, it doesn't seem altogether unreasonable that we could have a little light shooting now... chaos mortals can shoulder the pain of no missile weapons, makes more sense for them. Slings, throwing spears and thrown axes would work a treat for our guys.

I also kinda like your chariot to a herd idea... though maybe it could be a herd or a bestigor unit otherwise it's kinda forcing people to eitehr go herd/chariot or not have them at all... I don't know... but I prefer it to specials!

[Pyre]

What about the leadership issues?  Due you think it is still reasonible to have LD8 for beastlords?

I can see the argument, but as a stand alone, I would like to see the LD addressed.

I agree with all of your suggestions, but are you still for mixed herds?

Phil

The way I've been running recently I don't really rely on my characters to do much of anything, and I kind of like it.  The idea of the Beastlord unleashing the ambush, but not really being the focus once the battle starts, also seems cool and really different.  So I'd suggest the following:

Bestial Discipline: All units that contain Gors (including centigors and chariots) gain a +1 Leadership for all psychology and rally tests for each banner within twelve inches, excluding their own.  This cannot grant a leadership greater than ten.

The idea being to make herds more stable in general without making them unbreakable.  The requirement of a banner means that chariot spam armies can benefit from it, but cannot be the center since they cannot carry a banner (except a BSB).  It also make bait and flee tactics not just viable but integral to the list since rallying and avoiding panic becomes MUCH easier.  An additional bonus: there's a real reason to take standards in a herd.  With this in place and the addition of javelins (or whatever) to ungors in herds, an army with actual beastmen in it becomes more viable.

Also I am very much in favor of mixed herds, and think that's one of the big thing that makes BoC unique.


Pyre

...more in a few

[Finlay]

really good and interesting ideas pyre.
Why dont they hire randomers to design rule books, instead of their own rubbish designers.

Although I do think Bestial discipline is not a great idea, as it encourages massive centres of the army, instead of a more spread out feel which comes from the raider rule. Perhaps also it is a little over powered.

[Pyre]

Now, we're next right? Or was there something coming along before us? I forget now in all the excitement about Druchii...


I like your ideas Pyre. Like the idea especially about having little ungor throwing spear units... sounds fluffy to me and seeing as chaos is all split now, it doesn't seem altogether unreasonable that we could have a little light shooting now... chaos mortals can shoulder the pain of no missile weapons, makes more sense for them. Slings, throwing spears and thrown axes would work a treat for our guys.

I also kinda like your chariot to a herd idea... though maybe it could be a herd or a bestigor unit otherwise it's kinda forcing people to eitehr go herd/chariot or not have them at all... I don't know... but I prefer it to specials!

I don't really see forcing people into using herds as a bad thing, as long as the herds themselves are worth using.  I could see putting bestigors in there as well though, if you're looking for a more elite feel.  I'd like to see chariots become a compliment to herds, not herds simply being meat shields so that the chariots get there safely.  As for shooting, yeah I like the feel of the thrown weapons, but really want to stay away from anything like bows or war machines.

Although I do think Bestial discipline is not a great idea, as it encourages massive centres of the army, instead of a more spread out feel which comes from the raider rule. Perhaps also it is a little over powered.

The real idea behind the rule would be to allow herds and other units to be used more on the flanks, rather than bunching up in the middle.  Consider this, at current any beastman unit (i.e. herds, chariots, bestigors, etc) that want better than a seven leadership must stay within the 12" bubble of the general.  That is bunching up, and that means only the monstrous units (minotaurs, giants, DOs) can really swing wide onto the flanks where not even they are all that reliable.  Now with the Bestial Discipline rule you could put two herds and a unit of light centigors on a flank and they could have an eight leadership for psychology tests and possibly a nine depending on how many banners you wanted to risk.  Give one herds HW and SH, and the other GW and they're mutually supporting.  There you have a great little flanking force without characters.

As for overpowered... not sure really.  It doesn't look it to me since it means herds still break at he drop of a hat in combat, and doing so costs the banner that gave them the bonus in the first place.  To me that plays well into the "win big or loose big" way of combat BoC seems to lean toward.  However, as with all rules, it should be play tested.


Pyre

[warhammerlord_soth]

Well....


I'd take strength 4 any day. 

[Mathi Alfblut]

Any recommended Beast site? I need to know since some people have recommended beats as my next army due to my playing style and preferences.

[phillyt]

The herdstone is okay... well actually it sucks, but its about the only one that is consistant.

Kuh Tathor's Beast Horde was awesome back in the day.

Phil

[Siberius]

This thread is the best beasts forum on the net   

[Velead]

I've taken an interest in Beastmen recently. So I've been looking about for forums, and I have to say, Mathi, Siberius is pretty spot on there.

[Mathi Alfblut]

Oh... then I need to look no further!

Well, thing is, like I said, I was recommended beasts and I must admit the idea of a raiders army that can make real ambushes have felt very appealing on occasions.
Now, when I have been pushed over the treshhold of only doing good armies, I feel that a winterthemed beastmen army would be exellent pair on a shelf with my winterthemed asrais.

I know the beasts are in a deplorable state at the moment, but then, you cannot say they are cheese. So I am thinking of getting the book and getting really dirty and bitter and with general feeling of hatred against all others, including the stuckup warriors and daemons of chaos. 

[curse]

I was thinking for the leadership issue, that instead of bolstering stats or new rules, to include low cost enchanted items in the magic list that confer leadership bonuses and abilities much like the crown of horns and horn of the great hunt do currently. Some examples off the top of my head could be as below.

Eye of fury 25pts character with raiders rule only
One use only. Once per battle, at the start of any of his own turns, the bearer may use the eye. The character (and the unit he is with) gain frenzy until the end of the next turn (unless lost through combat resolution as per normal Frenzy rules). The benefits can only be passed on to a unit with the raiders rule.

Challengers Heart 35pts
The Challengers Heart gives the bearer +1 leadership, The Bearer must always accept challenges.

Challengers Horn 40 pts Beastlord or Wargor General only
The Challengers Horn increase the range of the generals leadership from 12" to 18".

Hoof of shadows 40 pts
Bound spell (Power level 4 or 5?). Usual blurb about how bound spells work. The hoof of shadows contains the Shades of Death spell from the Lore of shadow. 
(I don't know if this will over power nurgle characters/units or if that would just be a nice benefit. Actually for Pestigors it might make taking them worthwhile.)

These are just some ideas I thought of now. Obviously the points values may be off but it would depend on how the rest of the army book was structured of course. I don't think they are too overpowered, but they provide a bit of bite and help with the leadership issues beastmen have.
What do you guys think? They don't have to be all enchanted items of course, but maybe placed in certain categories and costed appropriately so that you have to weigh up defensive items or offensive items vs leadership support.

[patsy02]

10- Fix psychology issues for herds.  This constitutes another entire post...

Out of personal experience I can say that beastmen LD is in severe need of fixing. One of my games against beastmen was a 2500pts friendly game. In turn two I killed his giant with a cannon ball. All three units close to the giant fled in each their direction and into through 2-3 friendly units each, panicking about 1500 points and 3 characters off the board. I really like pyre's idea.

[Siberius]

I know the beasts are in a deplorable state at the moment, but then, you cannot say they are cheese. So I am thinking of getting the book and getting really dirty and bitter and with general feeling of hatred against all others, including the stuckup warriors and daemons of chaos. 

If you are just starting up at the moment too there are probably some safe units you can get now and not be too worried they are going to drop so you can always make a start and then when the new army book comes out modify a little accordingly.

I can't remember when they are supposed to be being overhauled but I feel like it's not too far away...



And curse, the only problem I can see with having a +1 LD item is that it will be so useful, won't everyone take it?

[phillyt]

And curse, the only problem I can see with having a +1 LD item is that it will be so useful, won't everyone take it?

Yes, that would be the case.

Shifting to LD 9 wouldn't break the army, though I can see them leaving the LD at 8 for the beastlord.

Phil

[Siberius]

I mean, there is in theory nothing wrong with having low leadership armies... if they can compensate somehow. If everyone had high ld it would be a little boring in some ways... but maybe there could be something to help not entirely cripple with it.

[curse]

And curse, the only problem I can see with having a +1 LD item is that it will be so useful, won't everyone take it?

True. Maybe it should of been closer to 55-60 pts. It is a bit naff, but it is hard thinking of effective leadership bonus's that are unique.
I just had another idea, what if it bolstered leadership by +2 for 1 turn only (this modified leadership can only benefit the unit the character is in; it can not be passed on by the general as per the usual rules)?

I really like the idea of ungors with throwing spears. That would be fun, especially when they ambush behind enemy lines.

[Finlay]

I'm afriad with the current re do of beasts coming up, I'm going to have to abandon them.

Once I have finished painting my 18 great swords, I am going to do an all mounted/monstrous DE force. Hopefully this will be completely different from my Empire, and when beasts come out again, beasts army.

I'm hoping this all mounted army will be cheap, and quick to paint/

[rufus sparkfire]

I am going to do an all mounted/monstrous DE force. Hopefully this will be completely different from my Empire, and when beasts come out again, beasts army.

I'm hoping this all mounted army will be cheap, and quick to paint/

The dark riders are expensive, and have stupid-looking horses. Maybe you could use the tree pixie cavalry models instead.

[phillyt]

I have a friend doing the gladerider conversion thing.  Much cheaper and just as good.  A few torso and head swaps and they look fine.

As for dropping them for a mounted DE force, no they aren't that much different from Empire.  Great shooting,. medium magic, and core cavalry with LD8 means a similar play style to all knight Empire armies.

Why ditch the beasts?  You'll be sorry when the new book comes out.

Phil

[Finlay]

I have a friend doing the gladerider conversion thing.  Much cheaper and just as good.  A few torso and head swaps and they look fine.

As for dropping them for a mounted DE force, no they aren't that much different from Empire.  Great shooting,. medium magic, and core cavalry with LD8 means a similar play style to all knight Empire armies.

Why ditch the beasts?  You'll be sorry when the new book comes out.

Phil

buy glade riders and stick on DE heads?
Well i wont be taking much shooting in an all mounted force, and plan to go fairly magic heavy, something I have never done with Empire. Nor have I played all knight Empire, so it should be fairlu different to my combined arms Empire.

I'm not ditching them, I just dont want to paint lots of chariots for example, only to find we can't use that many. Or paint lots of Ungors then find out they take out mixed herds, etc.
The plan is to finish the DE army before the new Beasts book is released.

[rufus sparkfire]

buy glade riders and stick on DE heads?

That should work, though you will probably need crossbows from somewhere.

Magic. Yuk. Get a dragon instead!

[Pyre]

Beasts don't really need a leadership fix, they need a psychology fix.  Right now we work just fine once we get into close combat: we win big and they run or we loose big and we run.  It works because we have so many cheap heavy hitters, so to boost leadership too much would mean either we have to loose some of the hard hitting units or they have to get more expensive.  I mean think of it this way: if herds can have a good chance of staying in combat even when loosing, then the chariots and bestigors and giants and centigors and minotaurs and dragon ogres all have easier counter charges.  All those units can hit with strength 5+ with multiple attacks and none are usually more than 225 pts or so... most are cheaper.  I consistently put multiple units of minotaurs and centigors on the board with a giant, dragon ogres, and three chariots.  With leadership nine all I need is a couple of wounds to hang around AFTER getting charged, and then I don't care what unit charged me.

As for the items, I don't want to be offensive but I don't like the idea at all.  Any time an army has to take magic items to function, there's something wrong there.  I like the items themselves as a whole, though as has already been said the Heart may be a no brainer type item (maybe limit it to great bray shamans to make them more able generals), but I'd rather see a real fix for the Beasts instead of something that feels like a quick fix.

To Mathi, actually now might be a good time to start collecting some of the more mainstay units since some people are going to be jumping ships and selling models.  Chariots are still a good idea, just don't buy too many.  Minotaurs are a requirement, though I personally HATE the GW ones.  Tactics wise there is one change from the asrai: everything is cheap and expendable.  I've sacrificed two units to kill one and come out far ahead in the VPs more than once.

Pyre

[Finlay]

buy glade riders and stick on DE heads?

That should work, though you will probably need crossbows from somewhere.

Magic. Yuk. Get a dragon instead!

How about Magic and a dragon?

I've never gone magic heavy. Might be interesting. And hopefully will counteract not having much shooting.