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Author Topic: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!  (Read 500608 times)

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2075 on: February 10, 2010, 02:46:45 PM »
Do you know what that word means? You are awfully keen on it for no apparent reason.
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline Mogsam

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2076 on: February 10, 2010, 04:06:12 PM »
I dunno.... I often find myself wanking over bear wrestling. It's just such a lost art. I hope you can bear with my self abuse sarcasm. And aweful, aweful pun.

Considering I was too cheap to buy the Lord Wu model and had to get someone to buy it for me I doubt a panda army is likely. Though I won't deny that I have thought of sculpting an Ogre into one. Then I realised I'm no where near that good yet.

Mogsam



Curse you and your ability to stay within the lines.

Offline Aldaris

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2077 on: February 10, 2010, 04:20:20 PM »
I hope you can bear with my self abuse sarcasm.
Midaski? How did you get into Mogsams account?

Offline Midaski

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2078 on: February 10, 2010, 05:55:39 PM »
I hope you can bear with my self abuse sarcasm.
Midaski? How did you get into Mogsams account?

Mogsam shows promise ........ give him another twenty five years and he might be worthy  :engel:
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Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

You mean they will be using Ouija boards instead of Tarot cards for their business plans from now on?

Offline Shadowlord

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2079 on: February 10, 2010, 06:17:32 PM »
Shadowlord? THERE's your reason for getting a beastman army.

 :icon_lol:

 :icon_lol:

Most awesome mini ever! After the pumbagor that is...

I really don't care if you don't like the fluff Shadowlord, I just don't like the fact that you are painting it in a false light. 

Should I care?

No matter what you try to tell the rest of the Beast possé, the fluff and content of the new book is just utter crap and the sloppiest work in any army book or codex in many years. Saying that it is false light is a weak attempt to try to stir the discussion in your favor, and make the sludge taste better than the foul slime it really is.

Good luck with that!

But I will leave the fluff alone, after all this is a game, and let the others who play beasts decide for themselves.
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Offline Taureus

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2080 on: February 10, 2010, 07:33:37 PM »
@Taureus: The drop x for 1 interpretation is discussed a lot, but most reasonable people dismiss it. The text itself is (as so often) specifically unclear. In the WD battle report they deployed one unit for each ambushing unit, which is a hint at how it is meant to be. But WD is also known to botch up rules in their reports, so there you go.
RAI must be that one unit is deployed for each ambushing one, because this rule is there to prevent an all-ambushing army. "I drop one block of Gor behind this forest and 15 blocks in ambush" is certainly not intended by the rule.

Firstly, I wasn't purporting that the X:1 reading of the special rule was correct. (the original idea is from 'The Forum That Shall Not Be Named' after all) I was merely trying to make an argument for it in support of PhillyT here.  :laugh:

I know it's most likely meant to be a 1:1 ratio, otherwise it's a lot more powerful than it was in 6th edition.

And yes, WD gets rules confused at times. I can't remember the last time they botched something, but it created a bit of a hubbub on 'The Forum That Shall Not Be Named'.
Quote from: The Red Scourge;4561884
Funny. Rick Priestley always imagined 1 model to equate around 5 men, but then again, they were just a bunch of hippies, so he was probably too stoned to notice ;)

Offline phillyt

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2081 on: February 10, 2010, 09:17:05 PM »
No matter what you try to tell the rest of the Beast possé, the fluff and content of the new book is just utter crap and the sloppiest work in any army book or codex in many years. Saying that it is false light is a weak attempt to try to stir the discussion in your favor, and make the sludge taste better than the foul slime it really is.

Honestly couldn't care less if the discussion is in my favor.  I have nothing to prove to the community.  There are 7700 posts they can pick from to determine the direction I go in.  It was more the fact that you seem to have a goofy vendetta against the fluff.  It isn't particularly good, not bad, but nothing brilliant.  The 6th edition book was better in style, though this one adds some interesting thing.

What I am more interested in is letting people read it and make up their own minds absent outside interferrance.  Of course you have every right to voice you opinion, which you have.  Thank you for your contribution.

Quote
But I will leave the fluff alone, after all this is a game, and let the others who play beasts decide for themselves.

Exactly.

As for the minotaur, I am making greenstuff testicles to dangle behind the loincloth.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2082 on: February 10, 2010, 09:24:53 PM »
Stop your bickering and get along, kiddos...
Have one  on Midaski's tab.  :::cheers:::
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Offline Shadowlord

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2083 on: February 10, 2010, 09:52:18 PM »
Stop your bickering and get along, kiddos...

Can't! I hate the man after our last bed encounter.

Headache, my ass...
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Offline Justnorth

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GW can pucker their skanky lips and suck my arse.

He's French. Since when do his plans have to be feasible?

Offline Warlord

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2085 on: February 11, 2010, 07:40:25 AM »
Here is a balanced list I have come up with - mainly because I have most of the models to build this (what base size is a Razagor - for those who have bought one?)

2250pts

HEROES
BEASTLORD (goes in UnGor or Gor)
HA, GW
Chaos Gift of +2AS
Chaos Gift of Stubborn

WARGOR BSB (goes in UnGor or Gor)
HA, S
Totem of Rust (Banner of-1AS 6", -2AS combat)

SHAMAN L2
Horn of D6+1 movement 36" PL3

SHAMAN L2
Herdstone item

CORE
24 Gors w Shields, Full Command
10 Gors w extra hand weapon, Musician (ambush)
26 Ungors, Musician + Standard
10 Ungors, Musician (ambush)
2 x 5 Ungor Raiders with Musician (1 ambush)
2 Chariots
2 x 5 Hounds

SPECIAL
2 Razagor Herd
2 Razagor Herd
10 Bestigor with Champion

RARE
2 Chaos Spawn
1 Cygor

What do you think? Problem is, I approach most lists like an Empire player - so I'm not sure if it can even compete, but it feels pretty good at the moment.
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I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Taureus

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2086 on: February 11, 2010, 07:46:55 AM »
Razorgor are on 50mm bases.

Making them the first "monstrous" infantry unit. In base size, not wound pool.

Edit: And the ambush rule doesn't allow for Ungor Skirmishers to ambush with a unit of regular Ungor on the board. :(
Quote from: The Red Scourge;4561884
Funny. Rick Priestley always imagined 1 model to equate around 5 men, but then again, they were just a bunch of hippies, so he was probably too stoned to notice ;)

Offline Shadoweyed

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2087 on: February 11, 2010, 09:50:03 AM »
I was wondering what people's thoughts were on Ghoros. He makes Centigors Core and I have debating taking him, even though I don't like to take special characters.

Also, Harpies, are they on 20mm bases? I'm assuming as much, but I am never sure with flyers, even infantry like flyers.

-Shadoweyed

Offline Warlord

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2088 on: February 11, 2010, 11:20:54 AM »
26 Ungors, Musician + Standard
10 Ungors, Musician (ambush)
2 x 5 Ungor Raiders with Musician (1 ambush)

Edit: And the ambush rule doesn't allow for Ungor Skirmishers to ambush with a unit of regular Ungor on the board. :(

Are you referring to my list, or just in general?
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Offline phillyt

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2089 on: February 11, 2010, 11:33:04 AM »
HEROES
BEASTLORD (goes in UnGor or Gor)
HA, GW
Chaos Gift of +2AS
Chaos Gift of Stubborn

Not bad.

Quote
WARGOR BSB (goes in UnGor or Gor)
HA, S
Totem of Rust (Banner of-1AS 6", -2AS combat)

I would go with the BEast Banner or the one which removes leadership.   That or drop the HA, since it will do nothing for him.  Remember the banner of rust removes 2 points of AS from the unit carrying it!

Quote
SHAMAN L2
Horn of D6+1 movement 36" PL3

Remember, the beastial surge doesn't allow units to charge, it only moves them up against enemy units, which sort of makes it suck.

Quote
SHAMAN L2
Herdstone item

Not a bad item, but something like the hagtree fetish is a better choice.  The herbstone one requires the models stay right on top of the thing and not get to a postion where they can cast their spells.

Quote
CORE
24 Gors w Shields, Full Command
10 Gors w extra hand weapon, Musician (ambush)
26 Ungors, Musician + Standard
10 Ungors, Musician (ambush)
2 x 5 Ungor Raiders with Musician (1 ambush)
2 Chariots
2 x 5 Hounds

Okay, but are you only ambushing the two units of 10?  Also, hounds are really bad now.

Quote
SPECIAL
2 Razagor Herd
2 Razagor Herd
10 Bestigor with Champion

Why 10 bestigor with no banner?

Quote
RARE
2 Chaos Spawn
1 Cygor

Chaos spawn are terrible, and cygor are highly questionable.  What is it you are liking about him?

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Moxer

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2090 on: February 11, 2010, 12:47:27 PM »
Warlord, your list is probably "underbalanced". PhillyT already mentioned some points, here are some more:
-banner of rust: If you really want to take it give the gors AHW, not the shield and put the BSB there. Otherwise you have no unit that won't use it's AS by the banner.

-lack of killyness: I think your list has not enough punch. The characters are not really tooled for combat, the beastlord is OK but could be harder. The two units of razors need to stay very close to the general otherwise they will panic off very fast. Even if they don't run, one razor is shot down quickly and the surviving one can only serve as support afterwards. The bestigor on their own won't stand up against anything killy and have no passive CR as soon as one gets shot.
The Cygor is also the least killy monster available. You  built for stability, but seriously lack breaker units.

- no unit for the shamen. The shamen have no protection, they need to stay at the shard if you take it and can only join a unit of ungor raiders for protection. And these are too small to be effective bodyguards.


The list looks nice and is probably nice to look at on the table, but sadly it is rather weak.

 
Just another imperial minotaur.

Offline Warlord

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2091 on: February 11, 2010, 01:23:28 PM »
I did not know that about the banner of rust.
And I did not know that about the horn either.
Should have read those magic item descriptions better.

I am ambushing 2 units of 10, and 1 of 5. These were larger, but I had to drop 5 from each to fit the army into 2250. And I am not dropping the hounds - I crave multiple redundancy and flexibuility in most of my lists. Besides, they are decent screens and diverters.

I don't intend the Bestigor to stand on their own - I planned to use them as hard hitting flankers.

As for the shaman, I was planning on floating them between the gors, ungors, and ungor raiders (non-ambushing varieties). I really don't know where is best to put them. What are other people's ideas on the matter?

And I want the Chaos Spawn because I want to get some FenBeasts and use those - so purely theme reasons.
Cygor I like because I can shoot with him before I get to combat. Plus he is movement 7, so 3D6 pursuit is attractive. I am also including him for theme also.

Like I said, I build lists like an Empire player, so the punch I want from the Razagors are in flanking moves like nilla knights. I realise the Gors and Ungors won't last as long as our infantry - but thats the way I like to play wth pretty much any list I pick up (bad I know).

I am going to have to make a few changes as I did not know that about the magic items - especially the banner of rust - damn!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 01:26:45 PM by Warlord »
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I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Taureus

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2092 on: February 11, 2010, 01:26:33 PM »
Are you referring to my list, or just in general?

Curse my eyes at almost 3am!

I could have sworn there wasn't a (1 ambush) after the ungor Skirmishers... :eusa_wall:
Quote from: The Red Scourge;4561884
Funny. Rick Priestley always imagined 1 model to equate around 5 men, but then again, they were just a bunch of hippies, so he was probably too stoned to notice ;)

Offline FR1DAY

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2093 on: February 11, 2010, 05:07:37 PM »
Jabberwhatver model

http://theminiaturespage.com/news/710770/

Just like the picture
There are 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack.

So why you complaining!

Offline Shadowlord

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2094 on: February 11, 2010, 05:31:36 PM »
Looks like a rabbit raped a dragon...  :icon_confused:
My hood is my castle...

Offline Lord Karnik

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2095 on: February 11, 2010, 05:40:55 PM »
or maybe the other way around, I think a rabbit could dive right in body and all and it still would not be rape
"To improve on something takes understanding of what already is and requires thought.  To invent something new is genius"

yet another reason dwarfs are better then humans

Offline Justnorth

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2096 on: February 11, 2010, 07:04:36 PM »
Jabberwhatver model

http://theminiaturespage.com/news/710770/

Just like the picture
 

Fantastic old model.
GW can pucker their skanky lips and suck my arse.

He's French. Since when do his plans have to be feasible?

Offline Shadowlord

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2097 on: February 11, 2010, 07:04:50 PM »
So after reading through the rules for the second time I can see where this army lacks (no doubt it is deliberate with 8th in mind and the failures of DoC and VC) staying power.

The leadership of many units is a joke, especially the Bestigors without a character (the fluff here is worse than the Halberd one in the Empire book). In fact most of the units won't be able to deal with a lot of panic test without saying hello to the table board. Looks like a few of the special characters may be needed (but I dunno since I just read through these once).

How do you beast players deal with the loss of the reroll (undivided)?

Leaders like the Beastlord is quite a given because a general with LD8, which you get with the Doombull, and so few normal non monster units without Stubborn and ItP abilities, I can see some serious breakdown. Especially if you play fast moving with flanking tactics, which will derail you from the precious leadership of the general. You have a talent that gives you stubborn but that does not help with panic tests.

That does not mean the list is weak, but speed is of the essence and the units needs to get to their target fast to get the many nice bonuses combat gives them. Of course a smart general will deploy further back because I can not see how, for instance, an ambush of small gor or ungor forces will do any real damage (they can easily be shot since they lack the skirmish rule).

That is if they even get to the original point in the first place.

I see a better use for Harpies when it comes to warmachine hunting etc. And a use of the chalice at the right moment.

Of course no doubt, most tourney lists will be very few gors, and a huge amount of monters and skirmish ungors.

Yuk...  :closed-eyes:
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Offline phillyt

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2098 on: February 11, 2010, 09:18:04 PM »
I did not know that about the banner of rust.
And I did not know that about the horn either.
Should have read those magic item descriptions better.

Yeah they are weird.

Quote
I am ambushing 2 units of 10, and 1 of 5. These were larger, but I had to drop 5 from each to fit the army into 2250.

Really not alot of ambushers to count on.  I would have at least 5 at 2250.

Quote
And I am not dropping the hounds - I crave multiple redundancy and flexibuility in most of my lists. Besides, they are decent screens and diverters.

Skirmishing ungor are far better.  Hounds are too expensive and have such terrible leadership...

Quote
I don't intend the Bestigor to stand on their own - I planned to use them as hard hitting flankers.

Way better choices in the list for that roll.  They don't hit hard enough for their point value.

Quote
As for the shaman, I was planning on floating them between the gors, ungors, and ungor raiders (non-ambushing varieties). I really don't know where is best to put them. What are other people's ideas on the matter?

Thats not a bad thing to do with them.  Adding them to a unit of ungor skirmishers might work better.


Quote
And I want the Chaos Spawn because I want to get some FenBeasts and use those - so purely theme reasons.

Stick them on a 50mm base and they make fine razorgor.  Make one where you can take them off and add them on so they can still go on 40mm ones.

Quote
Cygor I like because I can shoot with him before I get to combat. Plus he is movement 7, so 3D6 pursuit is attractive. I am also including him for theme also.

That M7 idea is a good point, but he is so soft and so lacking in any sort of defense.  I would take a gorgon way before bothering with him.

Quote
Like I said, I build lists like an Empire player, so the punch I want from the Razagors are in flanking moves like nilla knights. I realise the Gors and Ungors won't last as long as our infantry - but thats the way I like to play wth pretty much any list I pick up (bad I know).

Used right they are great.  I would minimize the ungor since they suck.  Certainyl don't use 26 of them.  WAY too much for such a terrible unit.  They are so expensive, you can't use them like goblins.  Gor are where you want to go.  Take tons of 10 man ungor units and ambush half of them.  Run 4 ambush two.

For flankers, take minotaur or razorgor.  Razorgor are great fast flankers, as are centigor.  Both will do that job.  Minotaur will crush almost everything.  Gorgons will do well too, but aren't as efficient.  If you really want to use alot of infantry, pick up 5 chariots and that will add a serious punch.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline FR1DAY

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Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Review of the Beastman book and models!
« Reply #2099 on: February 11, 2010, 10:27:15 PM »
So after reading through the rules for the second time I can see where this army lacks (no doubt it is deliberate with 8th in mind and the failures of DoC and VC) staying power.

The leadership of many units is a joke, especially the Bestigors without a character (the fluff here is worse than the Halberd one in the Empire book). In fact most of the units won't be able to deal with a lot of panic test without saying hello to the table board. Looks like a few of the special characters may be needed (but I dunno since I just read through these once).

How do you beast players deal with the loss of the reroll (undivided)?

Leaders like the Beastlord is quite a given because a general with LD8, which you get with the Doombull, and so few normal non monster units without Stubborn and ItP abilities, I can see some serious breakdown. Especially if you play fast moving with flanking tactics, which will derail you from the precious leadership of the general. You have a talent that gives you stubborn but that does not help with panic tests.



Its almost like you have to be a good general to use the army  :icon_rolleyes:

Must be a bad deal!
There are 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack.

So why you complaining!