home

Author Topic: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!  (Read 500601 times)

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2225 on: February 21, 2010, 01:24:43 PM »
Well played two games last night against Chaos Warriors and Dark Elves at 1500.

Against WoC It wasn't too bad a game, but I couldn't make a roll to save my life.  There wasn't alot left on either side, but high value models meant I lost by 600.  Was closer than that, but it was tough to out fight chaos knights.  I took the gorgon too, and he is okay, but doesn't do enough offensively against khorne chaos warriors to be worth while.  Nice to be immune to pychology though.

DE was bad.  This was against a gunline DE list with 30 crossbowmen and 10 Dark riders coupled with a pair of wizards.  Too much manuvering and too much shooting to really be able to do much.  We didn't tabulate points, but it was probably around 1000.

While these two lists are certainly the worst match ups for BEastmen (WoC can match them in HtH and DE are super fast and can shoot the crap out of low AS units) I think the list needs some work before it is ready for primetime!

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Nicholas Bies

  • Members
  • Posts: 5329
  • puzzling
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2226 on: February 21, 2010, 02:23:20 PM »
Your ambushing ungor didn't get the better of the delf bowmen?

Philly have you tried the Jabberslythe yet? I've already told you how 2 of them ripped me to shreds.

Would centigor be worth it against Delves you think? Relatively fast get into range in a tun or two, if nothing else stops people firing at your minos...
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Lord Karnik

  • Members
  • Posts: 173
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2227 on: February 21, 2010, 03:18:11 PM »
Wow looks like our group is pretty even at the moment, You killed me, I killed the DE, the DE killed you.  interesting interesting!!

So no chance of a game tommorrow??
"To improve on something takes understanding of what already is and requires thought.  To invent something new is genius"

yet another reason dwarfs are better then humans

Offline Taureus

  • Members
  • Posts: 421
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2228 on: February 21, 2010, 05:44:31 PM »
Your ambushing ungor didn't get the better of the delf bowmen?

Philly have you tried the Jabberslythe yet? I've already told you how 2 of them ripped me to shreds.

Would centigor be worth it against Delves you think? Relatively fast get into range in a tun or two, if nothing else stops people firing at your minos...

Playing at 1500 points (gearing up for the NE Bash tournament), he would have one at most. And it suffers the same problem as the Ghorgon against an army that can largely be either Frenzied or ItP-lite (Mark os Slaanesh = Immune to Terror/Fear/Panic, and can still flee): No armor/ward save at all.
Quote from: The Red Scourge;4561884
Funny. Rick Priestley always imagined 1 model to equate around 5 men, but then again, they were just a bunch of hippies, so he was probably too stoned to notice ;)

Offline Justnorth

  • Members
  • Posts: 874
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2229 on: February 21, 2010, 10:16:28 PM »
Thanks for the the pitures chaps, the more I see different quality paint jobs on these new plastic Minotaurs the more I find myself thinking...

Gee... those models really are garbage sculpts.

It doesn't matter how much effort is put in, or how good the paint work is, and it has been very good in all cases, but models sculpted as clumsily as the new plastic Minotaurs are beyond redemption or salvation.
They are quite simply awful, blocky, clumsy sculpts.

Give me the bestigors everytime. :mellow:
GW can pucker their skanky lips and suck my arse.

He's French. Since when do his plans have to be feasible?

Offline Warlord

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • Posts: 10650
  • Sydney, Australia
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2230 on: February 21, 2010, 10:24:22 PM »
They aren't sculpted clumsily. They are just sculpted with a distinct style in mind, that many think is horrible.

More than anything, I am kicking myself for not picking up those Rat Ogres I saw on Ebay the other week.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2231 on: February 22, 2010, 02:25:24 AM »
Your ambushing ungor didn't get the better of the delf bowmen?

Didn't use them.  I was using my tournament list, so no modifications.

I think the army would do fine if I could make changes depending on the opponent, but in a fixed list, the thing is either go for the throat or go point denial/ambush.  I have made a couple other lists and think it will be interesting.

Quote
Philly have you tried the Jabberslythe yet? I've already told you how 2 of them ripped me to shreds.

Not yet.  Really soft model... and DE have wicked leadership!

Quote
Would centigor be worth it against Delves you think? Relatively fast get into range in a tun or two, if nothing else stops people firing at your minos...

The main issue is Dagonaki uses 3 units of 10 archers, 3 units of 5 dark riders, and 2 2nd level sorcerers.  Thats alot of shooting.  In an army with no AS, 90 S3 shots per turn was punishing.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Nicholas Bies

  • Members
  • Posts: 5329
  • puzzling
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2232 on: February 22, 2010, 03:42:45 AM »
yea i know

in my 2500pt list I have 30 bowmen, 6 dark riders, 7 shades, 2 lv2's. So a decent amount of firepower as well =P

The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Taureus

  • Members
  • Posts: 421
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2233 on: February 22, 2010, 03:55:40 AM »
But yours is a 2500 points list.

That much firepower in 1500 points is brutal for just about anything. And let's face it, 10 Dark Riders is just about the same threat (shooting) as 6+7 Shades.
Quote from: The Red Scourge;4561884
Funny. Rick Priestley always imagined 1 model to equate around 5 men, but then again, they were just a bunch of hippies, so he was probably too stoned to notice ;)

Offline Nicholas Bies

  • Members
  • Posts: 5329
  • puzzling
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2234 on: February 22, 2010, 05:57:16 AM »
But yours is a 2500 points list.

That much firepower in 1500 points is brutal for just about anything. And let's face it, 10 Dark Riders is just about the same threat (shooting) as 6+7 Shades.

yea i know I'm agreeing that it's brutal, especially when Mino's are only T4.

 
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Taureus

  • Members
  • Posts: 421
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2235 on: February 22, 2010, 07:33:21 PM »
Light armor...What's that?
Quote from: The Red Scourge;4561884
Funny. Rick Priestley always imagined 1 model to equate around 5 men, but then again, they were just a bunch of hippies, so he was probably too stoned to notice ;)

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2236 on: February 23, 2010, 02:30:48 AM »
Well the general consensus for the beasts isn't looking good right now on the HErdstone.  People are struggling.  I think some of this will be fixed with 8th, and some will be corrected once people sort out how the army plays after this huge shake up in style.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Nicholas Bies

  • Members
  • Posts: 5329
  • puzzling
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2237 on: February 23, 2010, 03:17:17 AM »
well you've got the experience but it seems to be it's about hitting as hard and fast as you can and protecting your units such as minos etc.

I mean I really like the new minotaurs, they hit like nothing else but aren't invulnerable (which to me makes them a perfect unit).

Maybe trying something out with Hounds deployed infront of your minos to cover them from enemy shooting for T1 and 2?

Also a guy at my LGS tried to spam the +d6" forward spell. It has potential, except he did it T1 (against my delves) and simply got his army into my charge range. I'm highly tempted to buy the book and start a small force.
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline t12161991

  • Members
  • Posts: 3395
  • Let's Go Blue!
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2238 on: February 23, 2010, 07:45:40 AM »
Yeah, I think you're short selling Hounds here Philly. They're cheap, they're fast, and they make excellent screeners and diverters.
Grutch:  Careful, someone I know on a forum I visit works for Sony.  He says they aren't to be trusted.

Hail! to the victors valiant
Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes
Hail! Hail! to Michigan
The leaders and best!

10-2

Offline Siberius

  • Members
  • Posts: 6831
  • The Minotaur Cat
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2239 on: February 23, 2010, 09:29:57 AM »
Perhaps the risk is that when they get shot up and flee, you have a horribly high chance of your minos running too... an Empire-like chance you could say...
Quote from: PhillyT
Magic does not have nearly the same problems with power levels as magic. 

Offline FR1DAY

  • Members
  • Posts: 3675
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2240 on: February 23, 2010, 10:57:59 AM »
But with the hounds in 5's they need to take two casualties to take a test and if they lose three, and lets face it they aren't very hard to kill, they are less than US5 so don't cause tests. You'd have to have a very high control on your shooting to reliably achieve just 2 kills.

Like you say as well, great for diverting units away from things as well, something that ungor skirmishers can't do.
There are 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack.

So why you complaining!

Offline Siberius

  • Members
  • Posts: 6831
  • The Minotaur Cat
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2241 on: February 23, 2010, 02:21:29 PM »
Interesting point.

For the record, I've always loved using hounds, though it was mainly in last edition as war machine and missile troop ambushers. 30pts a piece well spent! You could have 3 or 4 units of them and depend on at least one, in my case usually 2 or 3 coming on where you wanted and the rest were quick enough to still be able to get into battle.
Quote from: PhillyT
Magic does not have nearly the same problems with power levels as magic. 

Offline rufus sparkfire

  • The Old Ones
  • Members
  • Posts: 33360
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2242 on: February 23, 2010, 02:28:37 PM »
The plastic hounds are quite nice models, too.
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline Moxer

  • Members
  • Posts: 871
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2243 on: February 23, 2010, 03:01:43 PM »
If the hounds could stilll ambush they would be cool. as they are raiders are probably better. i will use hounds nonetheless, because the comp system mostly used in my area forbids more than three units of raiders.
On the models: i do not like the plastic models. parts of them are good, but the body and the furry shoulders/head just don't match well which makes them look bad imo. Better than the 6th ed metals though.
My favourites are still the old metal dogs from 4th/5th ed.
Just another imperial minotaur.

Offline Nicholas Bies

  • Members
  • Posts: 5329
  • puzzling
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2244 on: February 23, 2010, 05:33:44 PM »
Also if you have a Gorbull or Doombull then the Minos are frenzy and immune to panic...
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Moxer

  • Members
  • Posts: 871
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2245 on: February 23, 2010, 09:20:47 PM »
The thing is, Minos do not need a mino character to be effective. I thinkrunning a unit of minos + a unit of Gor/ungor/hounds with a gorebull is better than a unit of minos with gorebull + whatever you gt for the pointsof the carrierunit.
Just another imperial minotaur.

Offline Von Breden

  • Members
  • Posts: 1104
  • Remembering the Eccentric
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2246 on: February 23, 2010, 09:43:46 PM »
The plastic hounds are quite nice models, too.
I almost thought you were serious :icon_lol:.
Quote from: Siberius
I never noticed your height on account of your fabulous manly imperial beard.

He who has such amazing facial hair will never be short in the eyes of his comrades!

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2247 on: February 23, 2010, 10:05:41 PM »
Chaos Hounds are not the answer.  Taking skirmished ungor is a much better option.  As has been said, if a couple die the three remaining will be more than enough to force a panic.

The biggest issue with the army is the terrible psychology issues.  It is so prone to panic that the thing will struggle immensely.  Sure it can get around some of their issues with fear, but there are no non-rare ItP units.

Sticking minotaurs and gorebulls in units works well to a point, but it is only one or two units in an entire army.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Warlord

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • Posts: 10650
  • Sydney, Australia
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2248 on: February 24, 2010, 01:04:29 AM »
You don't need an entire army to be immune to psychology. And you deal with it like most normal armies - use the general's leadership.

And hounds are more useful for the purpose of cross-fire. They can still lose a few models and be useful - unlike raiders who need all 5 to be there to do it.

They aren't bad Phil. They just aren't as great as they used to be, and raiders are cool too. They have their place though, and not all armies have access to the same kind of useful, cheap throw away units that Beastmen do.

I do think the list will struggle, though it is worrying to hear Beastmen players agree though. I think a lot of the effective options for the list have disappeared, and really players are stuck using a chariot and monster heavy list if they want to be super-competitive. And even that, depending on the enemy can be neutralised.

I know its early, but the fixes the book needs are:
Drop in points for Gors (2 pts)
Free (or half points) Spears for Ungors
Ambushing hounds
Centigor cost drop
Centigor Hero (not just a champ upgrade - no idea why they didn't do that in this one)
Reduce cost of Wargor, Beastlord, and Bray Shamans
Cheaper magic items. So many are overpriced for what they do, and there are not enough cheaper items in the book.

These IMO are the main changes needed, as the book has so much potential - it just stumbles at some of the basics (cost of characters and rank and file)
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: The Minotaurs: UPDATE!!! Painted new Minotaur for viewing!
« Reply #2249 on: February 24, 2010, 02:12:16 AM »
I think Chaoshounds are marvelous in WoC.  They scratch their itches just fine.  But Other than a huge unit of them for a gorebull or doombull., I can't see too much use.  Those skirmishing shortbows are too useful for the same cost.

As for your fixes, if Gor were 7 with their AHW that would be fine, but 6 would be really good.  Ungor would need a comenserate drop to 4.  Spears should be a free upgrade, though then you would have no reason to use those cool handweapon bits.

The characters are actually appropriately priced when you take their high percentage chance of getting Primal FUry, particularly the Beastlord.  Compared with other lords, they aren't more than 10 points too high, which isn't bad really.

But you hit on it, chariots and monsters are the only way this list will have any shot at winning.  And even then it will simply be uncompetitive in fixed list tournaments.  Let me just say I think the list will still be alot of fun in casual play were you can modify your list to the opposition.  Even in a competitive setting, as long as the list can be changed, it will do just fine. 

Those Herdstone players who are in environments like Ben though are in for a long 6 or 7 years until the next book arrives...

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.