Topic: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!

[Justnorth]

I also read the fluff and I have no idea where all the hate is coming from. I didn't see any references as to how everyone is doomed except that some of the Beasts have visions thus. But what does that really mean? Not a lot seeing as how fickle the chaos gods are.
I actually think the fluff ain't too bad considering how little scope you have when talking about such a one-track mind race. When all you live for is to kill things, there isn't much more to say.

I read the fluff last weekend and it seemed pretty sort of regular fodder, nothing dire, nothing inspiring, and definitely nothing to get heated up over, but everyone is different.

[Siberius]

Wait, someone read the fluff and didn't hate it?  You didn't see the piles of info about masses of beastmen days from crushing Altdorf?  Insanity!  You must have read it with an open mind.  How dare you!

Hehe, I was worried when I picked up the book but it all turned out good. I guess the only way I can think that you could have spiced it up more was to angle even more of it from other race's perspectives. I'm actually kinda going to do that with my fluff in the sense that I am referring to my characters by what the humans know them as.

As for the SC, Khazrak is actually really good, with his rerollability, really good armor, and average whip.  Not a bad price when you consider a Beastlord with his magic alotment would be 245.  He is only a little more.

Gorthor isn't bad for his cost, if you gave a normal beastlord a chariot and 100 points of items, they would be close to his cost.

The Minotuar is actually a wrecking ball.  T6 and really good magic item (no AS axes) is nice.

Maybe they are a fair price, but in that case, another success as far as I see it. I mean, SC should probably have all those special rules, but our ones seem fairly killable too, which is nice. I still don't fully approve of having SC in the book that are already dead (reminds me of the days when Empire had Magnus the Pious... though maybe that was just the model... it was a long time ago and my memory is bad) but tis what it is.

And whilst that Mino is brutal, the fact that he has the potential to be killed by one flukey series of dice rolls is pretty cool, nice twist, especially with Warrior Priests and so forth whose reroll abilities would help such things. I can see a very flufftastic story that could take place in a battle...

Not that I'll ever use them of course but the fact that no one is complaining about them is nice enough.

[Warlord]

I still don't fully approve of having SC in the book that are already dead (reminds me of the days when Empire had Magnus the Pious... though maybe that was just the model... it was a long time ago and my memory is bad) but tis what it is.

Thats been going on since the O&G book. Gorbad and Grom are both dead. Why they didn't put Wurzhag in the new book is beyond me though.

[Mogsam]

Azhag is dead too. Only 2 of the 5 Orc characters are actually alive.

[phillyt]

The thing with the Minotaur SC is that it is extremely unlikely you will ever lose him to that special rule.  You need a 6 to hit, a 6 to wound with the same die, then you need to fail your AS of 1+

And only one of the Beast SC that is actually dead is Gorthor, while the other 7 are alive.

They did well to make the SC similar to the rest of the army with no real wards or AS.

Ghorros is very good too, I forgot that.  4 attacks, primal fury, and d3 wounds.  Making centigor core is huge.

Phil

[Moxer]

iirc the minotaur SC gets no armour save upon the double 6. Still, not a very high chance to loose him.

[Siberius]

Ghorros is very good too, I forgot that.  4 attacks, primal fury, and d3 wounds.  Making centigor core is huge.

Phil

I still wish they'd have made a generic centigor hero option though... that would have been tasty...

iirc the minotaur SC gets no armour save upon the double 6. Still, not a very high chance to loose him.

Really? I thought it said if he fails his save, but I have a bad memory...

[phillyt]

He gets whatever AS he would get against the attack.  It says it in his rule.

Phil

[Nicholas Bies]

He gets whatever AS he would get against the attack.  It says it in his rule.

Phil

You know what though I don't think it would really work unless you're really lucky (the 6,6,fail rule) however I think tooled up dark elves could do it. You have access to so many attacking buffs and/or strength buffs. I was thinking about my assassin today, 4 attacks +d3 + couldron + banner of hydra. Running 7-9 attacks which would be str6 with manbane. Not sure what the chances of a 6-6-4+AS would be but I got a feeling it would be more then anything else around.

[phillyt]

It will take about 72 attacks with that setting.  1/36 chance of getting two 6's in a row, then half of the time those won't work due to 4+ AS.

Phil

[Nicholas Bies]

It will take about 72 attacks with that setting.  1/36 chance of getting two 6's in a row, then half of the time those won't work due to 4+ AS.

Phil

Ah but combined with black guard, with 4 attacks each as well... and maybe 2-3 assassins in the unit...or even flukey good luck!! haha

The mino character I like but I'm still not sure why you would never take a Doombul. Sure he's only ld8 but 6 str8 attacks...oooh boy.

[Sig]

It's a little bit better than that due to hatred.

The only "viable" way to attempt it is with something with lots of attacks and with no armor saves allowed and hatred.  An Archlector with his hatred, busting out the sword of justice and the VHS might have a chance, rerolling hits and wounds and using the bull's fairly decent strength.

Realistically it's not going to happen.

[Moxer]

With sword of justice and VHS the lector can slaughter the doombull, special rule or not.

[Siberius]

Realistically?

I think we all know that realistically any character who is supposed to be near invincible is going to die to the first halberdier attack every battle. Stats have nothing to do with it! 

[Shadoweyed]

I agree with Sib here. But I have a question on the topic, it specifies that 'an attack', does shooting count as an attack? That would be nasty to score a 6 to hit and 6 to wound with a Hochland or Bolt Thrower.

I could go either way, just want to see the arguments for whichever side you choose.

-Shadoweyed

[phillyt]

Yeah, shooting counts.  But remember, this guy is going to be buried in a unit.  He is barely any more expensive than a kitted out Doombull, with an AS equal to the best a normal DB can get and a higher toughness.  On top of that, he does an extra S6 impact hit on the charge.

The odds of killing him with any given attack is 1 in 36, then you need to get around his AS.

As for Doombulls, the consensus on BEastman players is that they are probably the main choice for BEastman players in most cases.  Its about a 55% to 45% split between him and the beastlord.  I lean towards the beastlord for the LD9, but some people have had good success with doombulls and 2 gorebulls.

Phil

[Siberius]

Just had my first mini game with Beasts, 500pts, start of an escalation league.

Wargor (1+ save)
15 Gors
3 Minos
5 Ungor Raiders
5 Hounds

vs

Skink on Terradon
2 Razordons
5 Chameleons
10 Skirmishers
10 Skirmishers


I was worried that my army would never see combat but got lucky that my opponent somewhat trapped himself in the corner and I could pen him in. In fairness, he was super unlucky with his shooting. The minotaurs got into combat with the Razordons and it lasted 3 turns so by the end they were pumping out attacks. Man those guys are brutal now.

Also pleased with the raiders. They chomped through both skirmisher units and the chameleons. 30 points well spent!!

So far so good but obviously these kind of battles can only tell you so much. Still, I'm pleased with my army set up and how the book works thus far. Having the primal fury feels right at home having played Dark Elves so much recently.

[Shadowlord]

I also read the fluff and I have no idea where all the hate is coming from.

Hate? You mistake sloppy for hate.

I don't hate it, I think there is no thought behind it and it is repetitive beyond comparsion.

Worst written fluff for any book of newer style.

[phillyt]

To be honest, I read through the lizard man and dwarf fluff last night and found it no less partial to its army.  Beastmen simply lack the historical connections alot of the other armies have.  They are crazy woodland animals.  If the reader isn't into that concept it will be tough to get people into it.

Phil

[Siberius]

Yeh. I can't deny it is repetitive.

But as has been said, beasts are beasts... not much more to them than that...

[Shadowlord]

To be honest, I read through the lizard man and dwarf fluff last night and found it no less partial to its army.

Read what I wrote again. 

It is not that they aren't written informative or partial, they are repetitive and unimaginative.

Being beasts have nothing to do with it.

They made some cool models, cool models descriptions, fun rules (though, as I have noticed when building armies, too one dimensional for my taste), but it feels like they didn't put any thought behind the fluff. It feels that they ran out of ideas half the way and remembered that they had twice as much to fill the planned pages with.

[Justnorth]

GW's target market are 11-16 year olds.
If the fluff is a little basic, a little generic and a tad repetitive, it's not going to matter because as a big bunch of kids stop playing this month, and a new big bunch starts playing next month, so the cycle will go on and the fluff will serve it's purpose for it's target market.
If it works, it works.
Maybe you are expecting to much from it Shadow?
Maybe (and I confess I'm a bit like this...) you remember earlier editions when the fluff was made by someone more skilful and the material was more indepth and more intuitive... but those days are gone.
Scale back your expectation and it will become less of an issue.

[phillyt]

Now that was a post I can agree with Shadowlord!

 

The fluff is boring, it sot of has to be.  There isn't much it can do when you look at how they are setting the beastmen up this time.  I just really enjoy the beastial madness of it all!

Phil

[jturner]

I just can't believe Shadowlord is criticizing GW...at all. Don't you own the company or something? Fire the writer, move eighth edition up to next week (just re-release 6th ed rules and make a new beasts book right away!  Oh yeah, and fire the writers again...along with a couple of redshirts. That's all those guys are good for (firing that is).

[Mathi Alfblut]

And employ me for writing the fluff!!!