Topic: The Minotaurs: End Times?... or Good Times?!

[Shadowlord]

I want that beast BSB. Give him to me, Shadowlord. You owe me after that operation in Kyrgyzstan when I totally saved you from that group of Chechnyan rebels. You would be Shadow-beheaded-on-video-lord if not for me and that cunning escape plan involving two naked women, a llama, and seven Uzbekistani goat herders.

Unfotunately for you, as I said back then, a pack of Marlboro is all you get.

Papa keeps his BSB.

[Cannonofdoom]

Fair enough.

[Moxer]

Hm, those you are right, the new lokout sir hurts the mino BSB somewhat. I wouldn't put him into gors anyways, but had thought about ungors. Depending on the amount of enemy warmachines it might still be worthwile thought.
He might even run solo, maybe with the flying carpet.

Concerning the lookout sir: Is it still an extra roll? I read somewhere that it turned int a wardsave for the character, which would mean he is not allowed to take another wardsave he might have from a magic item!

[Cannonofdoom]

Lookout Sir is not a ward save. On a 2+ (4+ if not in the unit but within 3 inches) the hit is transferred to a rank and file trooper.

Gorebull BSB in ungors with spears is not good. Losing Primal Fury in favor of frenzy is a bad trade IMO. Plus wargor's ld of 8 is much more respectable, and his re-rolls will help that ungor unit. I am planning a block of 40 unspeargors with wargor BSB with Beast Banner. Might even put them in horde formation. Using lore of beasts for basic spell +1st +1tough buff will make them T4 St5 with tons of attacks and will almost guarantee hatred having the BSB in there.

[Moxer]

But that wargor BSB will be really squishy and is guaranteed to get at least four return attacks from whatever he is facing. Especially when carrying a magic banner. T5 and a 4+AS is all he can get.

A Gorebull BSB would be in Ungors without spears. As cheap as possible and only there to provide ranks. We'll see....i am mainly trying to still take one as i have just finished converting a gorebull BSB and am painting it now....

[Cannonofdoom]

But that wargor BSB will be really squishy and is guaranteed to get at least four return attacks from whatever he is facing. Especially when carrying a magic banner. T5 and a 4+AS is all he can get.

Not true. He can take Heavy Armor, Shield, and then 50 points in gifts. So he can have a 2+ AS if you give him Gnarled Hide.

Giving him the magic banner does not take away from his 50 points for gifts and magic items (though he cannot then take magic items) so he still is able to get all those gifts.

[Moxer]

Can still take gifts  . Wow,  i never noticed.  This is significant, makes it much better!

Next thought: What about chariots? Will we need them, use them? They were up to now a support for other units, providing some additional kills to break a unit in a combo charge.
Against big stubborn blocks a few additional kills won't cut it now. However those few kills might be enough to gind off that extra rank the enemy block has.
Not having to fear Str7 is also nice and makes chariots a more viable choice as character mounts. But maybe those characters are more needed in RnF blocks now.
They can still be used to cover the back of the army against fliers and such. I will probably take two, but the days of armies with 8+ chariots are over i think.

[Cannonofdoom]

To me, Chariots hold the same position they did in 7th. Support units that charge in along with ranked units, or that you can use to kill small annoying units.

[phillyt]

I never leave home without 6 chariots!  Too good, though now they don't get that sweet reroll for psychology nor do they have scythes though the whole model has primal fury.

Phil

[Moxer]

From the BRB (Or should we call it BFRB, big fat red book): "A character model that joins a unit of skirmishers gets the skirmisher special rule as long as he stays with the unit. characters on a mount can not join a unit of skirmishes."

Skirmishing Doombull anybody? Sure it is by far worse than it would have been in 7th (no 360° sight), but still a nice way to get some shooting protection.

Another tidbit: Mounts (and chariots) do not get the special rules of their crew and vice versa (Exceptions like fear are there). It might happen that out chriots loose the primal fury if it is errataed that only the crew has the rule. Right now i'd say it applies to the whole chariot, but then the passage in the BFRB would make no sense as chariots and crew are not separately listed anywhere.

[Cannonofdoom]

Doombull will not get lookout sir, so if you put him in skirmishers look for every template weapon and spell on the table to be immediatley trained towards him.

[phillyt]

Wouldn't he get the 4+ for not being a large model while still being within a unit?

[Cannonofdoom]

Wouldn't he get the 4+ for not being a large model while still being within a unit?

There is no such thing.

[Moxer]

Actually lookout sir is only used versus templates. Not every army has those!
And normal shooting never hits the character. Even if there are less than five RnF, YOU may allocate the hits as long as you give everybody one hit. If there are less hits than models you choose who is not hit. That is huge.

[Cannonofdoom]

Nope, you roll to randomize hits. Reread the BRB under characters and shooting. If there are less than five rank n file you roll, assigning numbers to each model (character is one, your 3 remaining rank n file is 2, 3, and 4 unit champion is 5) then re-roll anything that is not assigned a number.

[Moxer]

I am talking about 8th edition rules here. It clearly states "...the controlling player decides who is hit, but must allocate one hit on each model before he can add a second hit on one model..." page 99.

[Warlord]

In the terrain entry, under 'Marshes' they mention the Fimir!!!

[Moxer]

Yea, i saw that. They are still around! I still have some of them from the heroquest game.

[Obi]

In the terrain entry, under 'Marshes' they mention the Fimir!!!

Perhaps the new army after all?

[Aldaris]

I am talking about 8th edition rules here. It clearly states "...the controlling player decides who is hit, but must allocate one hit on each model before he can add a second hit on one model..." page 99.

Yep. That situation came up in a game on Sunday. I had 4 Rat Ogres and a Warlord left in a unit, one of the ROgres was already down to 1 wound. I charged the large unit of Quarellers, they stood and shot. I took 3 wounds. We looked up how that was handled now and was pretty surprised by what I read. I then allocated 1 wound each to 2 unwounded Ogres, and took one with the Warlord who saved it easily. Because of this I crashed in without taking a casualty, which didn't please my opponent much.

Bit strange really, because in that situation you can actually avoid having to remove full models before starting on the wounds of the next. But I couldn't find anything indicating this wasn't possible.

[warhammerlord_soth]

I'd have to look it up, but it does say somewhere that you have to remove full models, so what you did wasn't actually allowed, although I agree the wording to be dubious if you only read the hit allocation thingy.

[Aldaris]

All right then. Will have to read the rules a few more times to become really familiar with them. But you have to admit, they would contradict each other. I mean, I can't simultaneously remove whole models before starting on another AND NOT assign multiple wounds to one model before each other model in the unit has taken one...

I guess in the interest of preserving peace I will let the "remove whole models" rule take precedence in the future, unless someone else can come up with an angle that I missed.

[Moxer]

The two rules work with each other. You assign HITS to your models first. Then you see if they wound. Wounds on normal troopers are added up and (whole) models are removed.
The assigning hits thing is good for three things:
- Allocate more hits on a well-armoured character, so fewer troops die
- Allocate more hits on troops to save the squishy character
- distribute hits on character, multi-wound champion and troops so that as few as possible die (Works only on monstrous infantry oviously)

[Aldaris]

The two rules work with each other. You assign HITS to your models first. Then you see if they wound. Wounds on normal troopers are added up and (whole) models are removed.
The assigning hits thing is good for three things:
- Allocate more hits on a well-armoured character, so fewer troops die
- Allocate more hits on troops to save the squishy character
- distribute hits on character, multi-wound champion and troops so that as few as possible die (Works only on monstrous infantry oviously)

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Might be worth it to invest the extra points for a masterbred Rat Ogre then!

[Moxer]

If you have a character on bonebreaker in there too the investment is probably worthwhile.
Minotaurs have it even better, if you get the expensive champion you can give him a magic item to buff the unit, which is nice.

Concerning minotaurs in 8th ed: Which equipment is now best? Great weapons are worse now, because even if they get the charge they will get smacked first. And most mino units will not be big enough to have models stepping up.

AHW will only give a benefit to minos in the first rank, as the second rank will only hit with max 3 attacks anyways.

Shields are worse too now.

I guess i will try 3-4 minos with AHW to try and shred infantry (they will die in the process, though)or 3-4 Minos with GW to counter cavalry and monsters.