Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Spoilers!!!

[Warlord]

Its been a while. I must have forgotten. Thats a bit darkside of him. Never thought about that before.

[Feanor Fire Heart]

Has anyone ever been force choked when they were not seen by the choker (either in person or through video or hologram)?

No. The only time anyone was choked was as a punishment during a conversation.  The only exception was Luke choking jabba's guards.  no words were exchanged.  At least in the movies.  I cannot vouch for the comics/tv shows/ novels that are current cannon.

But direct line of sight was maintained.

Define direct line of sight? Video is not direct line of sight from the target in actual space and time, and Vader chokes Karnnik while having his back turned to the pompous Director.  They already defined the force as the thing that surrounds, penetrates, and binds all living things.  As long as you can sense the target, you can manipulate it.

[Warlord]

Maybe its localised?

Magic doesn’t have to have logic.

[Finlay]

Re commandants "danger" argument, I'm pretty sure Obi wan and qui gon run away From the droidekas

[Warlord]

Yep. The droidekas worked to pin the jedi.

Regarding powers vs lightsabres, i guess you can’t use both at once? And sabres are defensive considering the amount of blaster shots they attract.

[patsy02]

Magic doesn’t have to have logic.

I disagree. If magic breaks its own established rules, it undermines the entire setting.

Its been a while. I must have forgotten. Thats a bit darkside of him. Never thought about that before.

We don't know if Luke killed the guards or just choked them out though. Also he was supposed to be more morally ambiguous, so that the meeting with Vader later on would be more tense for the viewer.

[GamesPoet]

And he seems to be a bit morally ambiguous in The Last Jedi as well.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

I guess he was bifurious...

[Warlord]

Its been a while. I must have forgotten. Thats a bit darkside of him. Never thought about that before.

We don't know if Luke killed the guards or just choked them out though. Also he was supposed to be more morally ambiguous, so that the meeting with Vader later on would be more tense for the viewer.

See I never ever got that.
I got he was wearing black, but he still rescued his friend and went back to see yoda so I never saw much to make me think he was going to turn.

[GamesPoet]

I definitely never thought he'd turn.  Luke hasn't struck me as a character that'd do such.  Some might say that he's predictable in that way, but that's ok with me.  There is sometimes doubt and disenchantment, yet also heroic bravery and courage which is all good for his part in the saga.  There is temptation, yet rising above it or fate stepping in his way to keep him from it.  And this seems the same in The Last Jedi. For a movie that seems to mess with people's expectations, I feel more and more that Luke was in line with the overall character previously portrayed, and I think it is a highlight of this newest film.

[Finlay]

Magic doesn’t have to have logic.

I disagree. If magic breaks its own established rules, it undermines the entire setting.

But I think the established rules in terms of film canon are very, very vague and loose.

[Warlord]

Magic doesn’t have to have logic.

I disagree. If magic breaks its own established rules, it undermines the entire setting.

But I think the established rules in terms of film canon are very, very vague and loose.

Exactly. The main and only one that pisses me off, is Yoda using lightning to strike the jedi tree. The rest are mainly fine IMO, including force projection.

I feel more and more that Luke was in line with the overall character previously portrayed, and I think it is a highlight of this newest film.

I disagree and agree. Mark Hamill and Luke Skywalker are a massive highlight of the film. However I do think it goes against Luke’s character. He would not give up on Darth Vader, a seriously scary Sith Lord. I don’t see how he would give up on Ben Solo, a boy whose fate was not sealed yet, and who even now still has good in him. That Luke could sense good in Vader, was enough to always have hope. Just because Luke sensed a glimmer of dark in Ben is not enough to have wanted to kill him. That is the main area where the story breaks, because Luke’s character is not consistent.
Most people just don’t think about it enough, but people in 5 years time, watching episodes 4-6 and then 7-8 all back to back will notice the distinct change in Luke’s attitude, and it will not gel.

[GamesPoet]

I definitely never thought he'd turn.  Luke hasn't struck me as a character that'd do such.  Some might say that he's predictable in that way, but that's ok with me.  There is sometimes doubt and disenchantment, yet also heroic bravery and courage which is all good for his part in the saga.  There is temptation, yet rising above it or fate stepping in his way to keep him from it.  And this seems the same in The Last Jedi. For a movie that seems to mess with people's expectations, I feel more and more that Luke was in line with the overall character previously portrayed, and I think it is a highlight of this newest film.

I disagree and agree. Mark Hamill and Luke Skywalker are a massive highlight of the film. However I do think it goes against Luke’s character. He would not give up on Darth Vader, a seriously scary Sith Lord. I don’t see how he would give up on Ben Solo, a boy whose fate was not sealed yet, and who even now still has good in him. That Luke could sense good in Vader, was enough to always have hope. Just because Luke sensed a glimmer of dark in Ben is not enough to have wanted to kill him. That is the main area where the story breaks, because Luke’s character is not consistent.

Correct, in that he is not consistent in how he treats a family member who's moved to the dark side, but instead in this area of Luke's character, this is where he changes, develops, and those that expect his action to be the same, find that perhaps he has a sense of pragmatism, or others some might say cynicism, yet either way or something else, in this way Luke has changed.  He has seen full well, through his father's move to the dark side, what moving to the dark side can bring, and see's no hope in a nephew who has turned as well.  He doubts, is disenchanted, yet trains Rey anyway, and in the end, rises above his own aging view, and returns to his part of the heroic figure of bravery and courage, saving those with little hope, delaying his nephew in saving what little remains of the Resistance, and giving his own life to do so.

[Feanor Fire Heart]

I think Mark Hamill playing Luke as a retired gunslinger who almost shot a kid was perfect! 

Yep. The droidekas worked to pin the jedi.

Regarding powers vs lightsabres, i guess you can’t use both at once? And sabres are defensive considering the amount of blaster shots they attract.

One can deflect, the other can crush.  Also considering Yoda uses the force to fight with a lightsaber because he's old (as well as other jedi throughout the films) means it is possible.  Though I think it means you have to have mastery with the force as showcased with Luke vs Vader in cloud city.  Luke seemed like he was swinging wildly and couldn't touch Vader and Vader just threw stuff at him for kicks.  It also showcased that the force is stronger and greater than any lightsaber combatant; which I feel GL totally destroyed that philosophy by giving Yoda a lightsaber fight in the PT, as it was his philosophy in tESB to Luke that its about the force and not brute force.

Its been a while. I must have forgotten. Thats a bit darkside of him. Never thought about that before.

We don't know if Luke killed the guards or just choked them out though. Also he was supposed to be more morally ambiguous, so that the meeting with Vader later on would be more tense for the viewer.

That's what was interesting about Luke, you didn't know where he would stand.  Sure he cared about his friends but he also cared about his father.  So its ambiguous on what he was going to do by the time he was in the Throne Room.  It was brilliant! 

Magic doesn’t have to have logic.

I disagree. If magic breaks its own established rules, it undermines the entire setting.

But I think the established rules in terms of film canon are very, very vague and loose.

Exactly. The main and only one that pisses me off, is Yoda using lightning to strike the jedi tree. The rest are mainly fine IMO, including force projection.

Why? I loved that scene! It was very poignant and I wouldn't put it past ghost Yoda to do it, along with bonking Luke on the nose with his ghost walking stick.

[GamesPoet]

I'm feeling better about that scene than when I first saw it.  In the moment, there was an 'ugh', how could he destroy the past thru the destruction of the tree and the documents, and yet it is good.  It is about, moving forward being what counts, and George Lucas talks about this in an interview I saw one time.  Yoda knows this, and wants Skywalker to act with what he can do now, and stop protecting things that aren't as important as what can be protected now, and that is a more valuable piece of moving the future forward.

[Warlord]

No you misunderstand me. I get the reason and everything, what i hate about it is that one scene destroys the rules of the magic.

If a force ghost can lightning a tree, then surely they could lightning people, or interact further with the real world, still impacting it while dead. Its a serious issue, because at any point in time, in theory ghost yoda could show up and lightning a bad guy. It becomes a flaw in the same way that the hobbits could have just used the eagles to throw the ring into mount doom. Now there is plenty of explanation in other lore why not, but you shouldn’t have to rely on written lore for a movie, you just shouldn’t make dumb mistakes for the cause of dramatic effect.

The interaction between them, the advice, the reminder that Luke still wasn’t thinking about the right things, yoda’s double speak that she has everything with her that she needs - the dialogue was great. The bonking was great too, because it didn’t need to actually be physical, just his ghost doing it, and luke’s muscle memory of corporeal yoda doing it would be enough to cause Luke to react to it.

Again, what I have issue with, is that a ghost can summon lightning. It represents so much more than ghostly advice or encouragement which was seen previously.

[Warlord]

Correct, in that he is not consistent in how he treats a family member who's moved to the dark side, but instead in this area of Luke's character, this is where he changes, develops, and those that expect his action to be the same, find that perhaps he has a sense of pragmatism, or others some might say cynicism, yet either way or something else, in this way Luke has changed.  He has seen full well, through his father's move to the dark side, what moving to the dark side can bring, and see's no hope in a nephew who has turned as well.  He doubts, is disenchanted, yet trains Rey anyway, and in the end, rises above his own aging view, and returns to his part of the heroic figure of bravery and courage, saving those with little hope, delaying his nephew in saving what little remains of the Resistance, and giving his own life to do so.

I get thats what they are selling, but its not enough for me. I loved everything else about Luke there. I loved grumpy, disenchanted, failure him. I just think that the particular mistake they made him do, was the wrong one. Because I don’t believe he would have made that mistake. Thats my issue. And neither did Mark Hamill. Just check out his interviews.

[phillyt]

Yeah, the lightning scene is problematic.  It requires that we assume Yoda and potentially Obi Wan choose not to act while ghosts rather than because they cannot.

I think the way the light side of the force is portrayed is a constant issue in the films.  It has so many restrictions that it doesn't really make any sense as to why a jedi could ever really be successful in the face of an opponent who is nearly as talented as himself.  One has obstructed his own use of the force while the other is unfettered.  I get it from a story prespective, but if you try to think about it logically, it doesn't make sense how light side force users can be successful.

[Finlay]

Yeah, the lightning scene is problematic.  It requires that we assume Yoda and potentially Obi Wan choose not to act while ghosts rather than because they cannot.

obi wan chose not to act while he was alive, and Luke chose to force project himseld then ascende to force ghosthood. I don't think presuming they choose not to act is that far fetched.

I also totally bought the Luke character. It wasn't a change overnight, but over 30+ years, having seen you "win" the war, yet the frirst order are still a threat and Luke changing from the role of a new trainee/young master talking about his dad, vs a new role of training people.

difference in reactions of hoping your dad is good, vs the weight of expectations for training people yourself.



None of this is what bothered me about the film., which id still only rate as "meh out of ten"

[phillyt]

I've said before, everything in that film could have ended up in the exact same place and I wouldn't have an issue.  It was the ridiculous and contrived sequences that led up to that point that was bothersome.

[warhammerlord_soth]

I still think it was a good Disney movie.

[Feanor Fire Heart]

Again, what I have issue with, is that a ghost can summon lightning. It represents so much more than ghostly advice or encouragement which was seen previously.

And Obi-wan's ghost gets tired and needs to sit on a log in RotJ.  We don't really know the rules of force ghost-hood.  He didn't summon a lightning out of now-where.  A storm was rolling in before Yoda even showed up.  Thunder was heard in the background the entire time.  Yoda just guided the lighting strike.  It is also the jedi mentality that you pass down what you learn and entrust it to the next generation.  That is why ghost jedi's don't drop in to save the day.  Also there are only 5 ghost jedi's in cannon as Qui-gon was the first to figure it out as said in Revenge of the Sith (Qui-gon, Kenobi, Anakin[somehow], Yoda, and now presumably Luke).  Yoda's manipulation with the lightning is a lesson and guidance.

[rufus sparkfire]

I think the way the light side of the force is portrayed is a constant issue in the films.  It has so many restrictions that it doesn't really make any sense as to why a jedi could ever really be successful in the face of an opponent who is nearly as talented as himself.  One has obstructed his own use of the force while the other is unfettered.  I get it from a story prespective, but if you try to think about it logically, it doesn't make sense how light side force users can be successful.

Well, in the old films there wasn't really a 'light side.' There was only the force. The dark side was a selfish perversion of that. It's also quite clear that the dark side doesn't make you more powerful. What do we ever see the dark side do that is special? Force lightning looks flashy but Obi-Wan and Yoda both negate it easily.


One thing I liked in The Last Jedi was the vision Rey received in the dark-aligned cave. She was drawn there, thinking she'd learn something important, but she only saw herself (as Luke did in ESB). There was nothing there. The dark side is an empty philosophy that always leads to your own destruction.

[GamesPoet]

Kylo Ren is doomed, doomed I tell ya!

[patsy02]

Magic doesn’t have to have logic.

I disagree. If magic breaks its own established rules, it undermines the entire setting.

But I think the established rules in terms of film canon are very, very vague and loose.

That's because they're lazy writers and can't stop themselves from blowing their magic out of control in order to make various characters perform shallow fanservice, and to serve as a deus ex machina.¨

Uh oh, we wrote ourselves into a corner. No problem, character in a pickle does some magic shit that gets him/her out of trouble.