Topic: The Empire in Exile: an approach to TVI via the Bretonnian Exiles army of infamy

[Contrapèl]

Greetings, fellow Empire generals.

I used to snoop around this forum during 8th edition, and I even posted occasionally with another account. Back then I never played a lot, but I really enjoyed Warhammer as a tactical game. And now with the Old World I’m getting hooked again. I think the ruleset has a lot of potential for great games full of interesting tactical decisions.

I read around here the idea of using the Bretonnian Exiles army of infamy rules for an «Empire» TVI list and I was intrigued. I don’t really have all the required models for this, or a regular playing group for that matter, but I love this kind of challenges: can I make a certain kind of list work?

And well, after checking out the Bretonnian Exiles army, my impression is that, if there is a tool that can pull off a working TVI-like list, it’s probably this one. Essentially, it’s a bretonnian army with less elite options, but with improved core. And with canons! And that just happens to be the kind of stuff that a TVI list needs: good core infantry and cavalry units, and a touch of gunpowder. Add to that the Border Princes setting, and it feels only natural to use Empire models to represent this army.


So what the hell is that TVI thing? What makes a TVI army?

Most of you reading this probably already know better than me. I don’t have a definitive answer, but I’ll try to summarize my idea of it.

Whereas most armies tend to concentrate a lot of power in a few units, trying to outperform the opponent’s own powerful units, the TVI (The Village Idiot) strategy goes the other way around. It forms a more or less uniform, «soft» battle line from side to side of the battlefield, avoiding any big concentration of power (and points) in a single unit, and outnumbering the enemy both in units and in models. The idea is to divert the opponent’s main units and sink them in combats that will provide few points for their side, while getting points elsewhere by killing support and mid-sized units.

That means using Multiple Small Units rather than big blocks, and everything should be lowcost: one should only take the characters, upgrades and equipment that are most cost-efficient and useful for the job at hand.

Oh, and there’s also an element of ‘combined arms’. It’s not just about taking cheap units, but also units that bring something to every phase of the game, and combining them for synergies.

Easier said than done, but trying to keep that in mind, this is the 2000pt list I came up with:


Characters

Paladin, Exile’s Vow, morning star, Charmed Shield, Ruby Ring 98

Paladin, BSB, Exile’s Vow, morning star, Charmed Shield, Falcon-horn of Fredmund 108

Outcast wizard, level 3, Elementalism, Lore Familiar 135

Outcast wizard, level 3, Daemonology, Earthing Rod 110


Core

24 Yeomen Guard, thrusting spears, standard, musician, champion, grail monk 145

24 Yeomen Guard, thrusting spears, standard, musician, champion, grail monk 145

24 Yeomen Guard, thrusting spears, standard, musician, champion, grail monk 145

5 Mounted Knights of the Realm, Exile’s Vow, musician, champion 134

5 Mounted Knights of the Realm, Exile’s Vow, musician, champion 134

5 Mounted Knights of the Realm, Exile’s Vow, musician, champion 134

5 Mounted Knights of the Realm, Exile’s Vow, musician, champion 134


Special

8 Squires, scouts, musician, standard 74

5 squires 35


Rare

10 Border Princes Brigands, skirmish, ambush, additional hand weapon x1, champion 69

Border Princes Bombard 100

Border Princes Bombard 100

Field Trebuchet 100

Field Trebuchet 100


Total: 2000


I took the three “basic” characters: a general, a BSB and a wizard, and I kitted them sparingly. I added a second wizard so one of them can prioritize the dispels and the other tries to stay out of dispel range and act offensive. It’s too bad we can’t have a level 4 wizard with this army list, but at least we get level 3s for dirt cheap.

The only “expensive” items I took should be of great value: the banner that shuts down flying (I am told the meta favors dragons and the like), the lore familiar and the fireball ring. I feel kind of confident in not giving the characters too much protection. The units in the list are quite independent leadership-wise, and should any of the characters die, it’s no huge loss in terms of points either.

The bulk of the list is made of core units. The Yeomen Guard is a great cheap infantry; the warband rule means it starts with Ld 10, and even if the characters die it will be Ld 9 as long as it keeps its rank bonus.

The knights come with Exile’s Vow, which gives them stubborn, veteran and immunity to panic from leavies or peasants. And that’s pretty much everything I was missing from them, making them reliable and independent. They should be deployed alternating with the infantry blocks: I think those units work best as hammer and anvil, so having them side by side is the logical option.

Bombards and Trebuchets are cheap enough, and with two of each plus the magic missiles, our side should have a chance to outshoot the enemy army and force it towards our lines.

The strategy should be quite adaptable. One may want to rush forward or wait for the enemy, depending on the opponent’s shooting. Other than that, one should try to identify the combats that can be won and the ones that can’t, and use all the tools at hand to get those favourable fights and avoid or delay the bad ones. In the meantime, shoot the hell out of enemy units with warmachines and magic.

Well, that’s the theory at least. No one said it would be easy.



So that’s the TVI ‘Empire in Exile’ list I made. I think of the "exile" not only as a literal one (having fled to the Border Princes), but also as a metaphorical one: with our current Empire list we can’t do our TVI thing properly, so we need to outsource our troops to the bretonnians.

Any thoughts? Do you think this could work? Would you do anything differently?

 

[Gorim]

Two bombards and two trebuches won't kill lord level character on a dragon. And dragon even on foot has 6M with swiftstride, so if you got the first turn, probably the item means the dragon will start killing your stuff a turn later. If you don't get the first turn, maybe it changes nothing.

All in all a fun army, but I would bet my money on the behemot-lord using opponent.

Because of that, I would probably take a Duke on Hippogryph with the virtue that gives him and his mount killing blow / monstrous killing blow.

[GamesPoet]

This does look intriguing.

[Contrapèl]

Two bombards and two trebuches won't kill lord level character on a dragon. And dragon even on foot has 6M with swiftstride, so if you got the first turn, probably the item means the dragon will start killing your stuff a turn later. If you don't get the first turn, maybe it changes nothing.

All in all a fun army, but I would bet my money on the behemot-lord using opponent.

I may actually bet on the behemoth army too!

But the point of this list is to experiment with a different approach. You don't need to kill the dragon to win the game, and even if this particular list can't succeed against some builds, the overall strategy may still prove valuable.

[sedobren]

I don't think you would be able to meet a lot of threats like this. For starters you lack magic weapons, and ethereal units do exist (there is even a very good spell that does that). The main issue with those dragon like threats is the speed. While the falcorn horn will slow them down by 3" (for dragons at least) that is not useful if then you are charging and closing the gap. In a bretonnian list the horn is used to slow down the dragon so that you monster killing hero(es) can charge it instead of the other way around, strike before it and kill it. It's a battlefield control tool, also very useful against gyrocopters and eagles.

The yeoman guard can either use its own ld with warband (so ld9) or the character's (ld 8 for the paladin). The only way to have ld 10 is to use a sergeant at arms that has warband and ld7. I would also use polearms on all of them.

Pegasus! use pegasus knights! even barebones with no magical upgrades they are awesome and can help a lot even against elite units.You can also get the amazing banner of the zealous knight and give them vanguards!

Why not put the banner on those knights? it's the most useful upgrade, especially with them at minimum size.

The brigands cannot charge out of ambush, so you will have them sitting for a turn, with just a light armor and ld5. Put blunderbusses on them and they will become one big threat for any backfield unit and war machine. A glass cannon obviously but one that hurts a lot.

The bombard is a cannon and thus is good (it even has a malfunction chart that i like better than the regular one!) but the trebuchet is sadly very inaccurate. You don't subtract bs o the scatter dice, you only do it with indirect fire (wich vs a big base model might make it more accurate than direct fire for some reason)

[Contrapèl]

All good advice! I wasn't aware of the warband limitations regarding characters, I'll have to rethink that.

I don't think you would be able to meet a lot of threats like this. For starters you lack magic weapons, and ethereal units do exist (there is even a very good spell that does that). The main issue with those dragon like threats is the speed. While the falcorn horn will slow them down by 3" (for dragons at least) that is not useful if then you are charging and closing the gap. In a bretonnian list the horn is used to slow down the dragon so that you monster killing hero(es) can charge it instead of the other way around, strike before it and kill it. It's a battlefield control tool, also very useful against gyrocopters and eagles.

The list is not specifically targeted at dealing with dragons or ethereals (maybe it should, as they seem to be the big thing now). The main strategy with them would be the same as with any other unit the army can't directly counter: try to delay them and avoid major damages, while getting points elsewhere. At that, the Falcon Horn should still be helpful, and there is plenty of dragon fodder (unit champions) to keep the big mounted lords busy for a little while. The conveyance spells could also be very helpful in the avoidance game.

Pegasus! use pegasus knights! even barebones with no magical upgrades they are awesome and can help a lot even against elite units.You can also get the amazing banner of the zealous knight and give them vanguards!

I'm aware pegasus knights are awesome and they are not ruled out at all for a list like this. I just wanted to take the minimum spending philosophy to the limit and work from there.

Why not put the banner on those knights? it's the most useful upgrade, especially with them at minimum size.

This is very much a points denial list, so I'm very hesitant to give banners to small units that could die relatively easily. The knights are supposed to work together with the yeoman guard more often than not, and those already have banners (and don't give away extra points for them).

[sedobren]

I understand your tactic, but you are bidding time for nothing. There is no hammer on your list, an your knights will be long gone before the infantry is within charge range. They will either win and go forward, or loose and likely be destroyed.
Just think that a unit of 5 knights of the realm, vs a lower opponent like empire state troops (arguably the worst infantry in the game) causes 3, maybe 4 wounds on average, not even considering potential bonuses the enemy might have, and that's barely enough to win, if the enemy causes nothing in return). That is not taking into considerations screens (that will make you waste your first charge) or the fact that most of the infantry around is better than that (eleven spearmen for example!) or the fact that the enemy will probably have elite units, better than yours, to meet your knights - Like other cavalry counter charging or stand snd fire, fire and flee etc.

I don't understand what points your are denying here, all i see are soft targets that will net me pts as soon as i touch them. Your most resilient units are the men at arms, which can be tough to break the first time they lose combat but without a sergeant they will probably break or fbigo the second round.

The artillery section is meaty, and as an empire player i have to say that cannons are surprisingly resilient since most enemies will concentrate on other things. The reason for that is that cannons are good the first couple of turns, but after that most of your and his stuff will be tangled in melee and shooting will become basically an artillery battle between yours and his shooting units. They are also not that reliable to shoot, and their effects can be easily reduced by having smaller, linear units (as a matter of facts bretonnia is one of the most vulnerable to cannon fire since even small lances have 3 ranks!). The moment your line is broke or simply surpassed, they become obviously easy targets.

You also plan of getting points elsewhere, but there is no elsewhere i think. If your enemy has units you cannot counter, he will simply throw them in your face. The board seems big but when a cavalry unit can pull of a 16"-17" charge it becomes suddenly smaller.

I'll give you an example, a simple standard scenario 1 battle of my empire army vs the enemy's high elves army. He had the big dragon with the prince on, obviously a huge threat. He managed to fail his first dragon charge, so i had one turn of shooting vs it, doing nothing with 3 cannons obviously. Then, thankfully, i manage to get my steam tank into combat with it, lasting the whole game until it got destroyed (not before losing a unit of knights and the general to the dragon). So i was able to roadblock it for the whole game because i had an unbreakable tank with 10 wound and t7, which exiles do not have. I also had a lvl4 mage on pegasus with dispell items that managed to deny him basically all of his enchantments (including the ethereal one), which the bretonnian exiles do not get. His shooting hurt a lot, but i was eventually able to reach his big lothern seaguard unit and tie it in melee. The end of the story is that i lodt by only a few pts, and I was not playing and easy list, while he was being moderate all in all.

Bretonnia has amazing characters (like the duke, or in this case the baron), cheap mobile mounts like the royal pegasus and a lot of shenanigans you can pull with virtues and magi items, a very good flying monstrous cavalry and a decent buffing magic. In particular having widespread flying in your army can open a lot of options when trying to avoid the enemy's screens, even if it's just s perceived threat that force the opponent to deploy in a sub-optimal manner.

[Magnu5]

I love this! You’ve flagged a few things for me which inspired me to take my own tilt at writing a list - here;

===
The Village Exiles [2000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Kingdom of Bretonnia, Bretonnian Exiles
===

++ Characters [584 pts] ++

Baron [156 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Morning Star
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- General
- Bretonnian Warhorse
- Ruby Ring of Ruin
- Virtue of Empathy

Paladin [126 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Morning Star
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Bretonnian Warhorse
- Falcon-horn of Fredemund
- Virtue of Empathy

Outcast Wizard [110 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 3 Wizard
- Earthing Rod
- Daemonology

Baron [192 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- Royal Pegasus
- Frontier Axe

++ Core Units [896 pts] ++

30 Yeomen Guard [193 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Thrusting spears
- Light armour
- Shields
- Warden (champion)
- Standard bearer [War Banner]
- Musician

30 Yeomen Guard [168 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Thrusting spears
- Light armour
- Shields
- Warden (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

6 Mounted Knights of the Realm [158 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- First Knight (champion)
- Musician

6 Mounted Knights of the Realm [158 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- First Knight (champion)
- Musician

5 Mounted Knights of the Realm [134 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- First Knight (champion)
- Musician

5 Mounted Yeomen [85 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Cavalry spears
- Shortbows
- Unarmoured
- Shields
- Feigned Flight
- Musician

++ Special Units [40 pts] ++

5 Squires [40 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Longbows
- Scouts

++ Rare Units [480 pts] ++

Border Princes Bombard [100 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour

Border Princes Bombard [100 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour

Border Princes Bombard [100 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour

10 Border Princes Brigands [90 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Replace Open Order special rule with Skirmishers (0-1 per 1000 points)
- Scouts (if Skirmishers)
- 10 Blunderbusses

10 Border Princes Brigands [90 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Replace Open Order special rule with Skirmishers (0-1 per 1000 points)
- Scouts (if Skirmishers)
- 10 Blunderbusses

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

It’s a different build, but solving for flying works wonders with the whole thing! Thank you!

[Dazgrim]

Except that Bombards are 0-1 per 1000 points.

[sedobren]

You don't actually need the virtue of empathy to put a hero with the exile's vow into a peasantry units, since the exile's vow has no provisions in that regards! You could try with some different virtue like the purity one on the general, so that he has the ward save from the get go.

It's interesting anyway, if you run it let us know how it goes

[The Peacemaker]

Interesting concept to try out. Like others have said, against top tier Elf lists it will be difficult. But it seems that enough people play this game for fun that you don't always have to be worried about top tier.

Bombards make those monsters hide, but enemies will eventually counter by just not taking them and instead just take more things like swordmasters with Ethereal.

Have fun. Report back when you get some games in.

[Contrapèl]

I understand your tactic, but you are bidding time for nothing.
...

Thanks for the detailed explanation, you may very well be right. My point is, this kind of strategy used to work in previous editions, so I think it is worthwhile to explore it and see if it can be made work now. I can sense you disagree with that, but I’m sure there are players in this forum that would like to find out too. I think the Bretonnian Exiles have a potential for this specific kind of list, more than the Empire at least. I don’t expect to make a tournament winning army, I’ll be more than happy if we can find a formula that gives us a chance against most opponents in a not-particularly-competitive environment. I may not even be the right player to pull this off (I enjoy theorizing, but I am not really that experienced, especially in this edition), so all the more reason to share my ideas and get some feedback. There is nothing set in stone in this list except, to an extent, remaining faithful to the overall strategy; otherwise I may as well leave the Border Princes and do a typical Bretonnian army or head back to the Empire.

Regarding your specific criticisms, I think they can be summarized in two. That it will not be possible to avoid the main enemy units for too long, and that the units are too weak.

I think you are right in the first case, so any advice is welcome. The use of flyers may be a good start, but it’s most likely not enough. So what else can be done? Squire speedbumps? Mounted Yeomen? Some spell I haven’t thought of? This is the kind of feedback I’d like to get, there may be something we can do.
 
As for the units being too weak, they certainly are individually, but the point of outnumbering your opponent is that you can often fight two to one. A yeomen guard anvil and a small knights of the realm hammer sure can’t deal with big nasties, but they should be fine against many average units. Of course this requires some tactical finesse, but if you don’t want some tactical challenge you shouldn’t take a list like this one in the first place. Again, outnumbering your opponent is a good start when you need to dominate the movement phase.

I love this! You’ve flagged a few things for me which inspired me to take my own tilt at writing a list
...

I’m glad to hear someone values my efforts! I like your list, I see you opted for mounted characters which may be the sensible thing to do.

[sedobren]

I understand your tactic, but you are bidding time for nothing.
...

Thanks for the detailed explanation, you may very well be right. My point is, this kind of strategy used to work in previous editions, so I think it is worthwhile to explore it and see if it can be made work now. I can sense you disagree with that, but I’m sure there are players in this forum that would like to find out too. I think the Bretonnian Exiles have a potential for this specific kind of list, more than the Empire at least. I don’t expect to make a tournament winning army, I’ll be more than happy if we can find a formula that gives us a chance against most opponents in a not-particularly-competitive environment. I may not even be the right player to pull this off (I enjoy theorizing, but I am not really that experienced, especially in this edition), so all the more reason to share my ideas and get some feedback. There is nothing set in stone in this list except, to an extent, remaining faithful to the overall strategy; otherwise I may as well leave the Border Princes and do a typical Bretonnian army or head back to the Empire.

Regarding your specific criticisms, I think they can be summarized in two. That it will not be possible to avoid the main enemy units for too long, and that the units are too weak.

I think you are right in the first case, so any advice is welcome. The use of flyers may be a good start, but it’s most likely not enough. So what else can be done? Squire speedbumps? Mounted Yeomen? Some spell I haven’t thought of? This is the kind of feedback I’d like to get, there may be something we can do.
 
As for the units being too weak, they certainly are individually, but the point of outnumbering your opponent is that you can often fight two to one. A yeomen guard anvil and a small knights of the realm hammer sure can’t deal with big nasties, but they should be fine against many average units. Of course this requires some tactical finesse, but if you don’t want some tactical challenge you shouldn’t take a list like this one in the first place. Again, outnumbering your opponent is a good start when you need to dominate the movement phase.

I love this! You’ve flagged a few things for me which inspired me to take my own tilt at writing a list
...

I’m glad to hear someone values my efforts! I like your list, I see you opted for mounted characters which may be the sensible thing to do.

Here is what i've gathered from the games i played so far.
The idea of speedbump is different from what you mean.  Steam tank is a speedbump for example, a unit of squires is just a great way for the enemy to be able to charge across 30" or more; a speedbump is something that is not suppesed to be destroyed in one combat round and can safely FBIGO or Give ground. Men at arms/yeomen guard are speedbumps, since they can reliably FBIGO or GG and have a large enough wound pool to resiste at least one round of combat vs any opponent. The can actually perform admirably in this role, especially on flanks.

Moreover this edition, as it was in Warhammer armies project, cavalry is extremely fast. In the other editions of warhammer it was not that much faster than infantry.  A unit of bretonnian knights now charges 8"+2d6 pick best + d6. that's more than 15" on average, which is two turns of infantry marching just to cover the same distance. This makes it very difficult in an army like bretonnians to use infantry as anvil, since the hammer is feets away across the board, or if you keep it back you are leaving them as sitting ducks. Obviously this changes depending on the enemy, like if he has absolutey no shooting phase you can play differently. The hammer and anvil thing for bretonnians is knights and then more knights to support them (although a properly kitted knights unit making the right charge should not need support from other units). that's why i reccommended pegasus knights, since theyc an skirmish and are very mobile and fast. Also yes you play a lot of knights and infantry, but youa re not really outnumbering your opponent when he can use some actual MSU tactic and throw 3 or more Close order units at your wide infantry block.

Another thing that you do not realize until you play the game, is how big units are now with the larger bases. I've always had issues so far with spacing and fitting all units as i want them in my deployement zone, because of scenery and the army's deployement needs. Large infantry units are very unwieldy and make basically impossible to make more than one charge against the same unit. That's why i run smaller and bigger units of cavalry (and sometimes infantry) in my empire army, if possible with drilled so that they can become smaller or bigger according to the needs of the charge in question.

[commandant]

In this edition cavalry are slightly faster than they were in other editions. Barded heavy cav charge an average of 15 inches compared to 14 in other editions. I donno if that is very fast

[sedobren]

In this edition cavalry are slightly faster than they were in other editions. Barded heavy cav charge an average of 15 inches compared to 14 in other editions. I donno if that is very fast

15 is just the average. With rerolls (that Bretonnia can get pretty easily) you can often pull 17"+ charges (or at least i have). Also don't forget that swiftstride applies to pursuits,so to overruns also. Cavalry can easily break through the line, go forward and reform 180° to charge on the rear, all in one round of combat. I've experienced that infantry without either drilled (assuming you can declare in marching column, reform and charge - see the other thread) or magical support often lags behind, which means it generally gets charged instead of charging - hence why thrusting spears and polearms are nice.

[commandant]

Infantry will and should lag behind cav.

Bert cav are slightly faster than everybody else's but this was always true.

In this edition infantry average a charge of 8.5 and cav average a charge of 15.

Sure they are only averages but the thing is that your cav will fall short as often as go long.

A charge of 17 requires you to roll a 10. Even if you assume average for 1 d6 is 4 (which it isn't) then you stoll have to roll a 6 on 2 d6 to make that charge and that is if there is no wheeling involved.

[Clymer]

It’s an unpopular opinion, but I think you can do the same thing better by using an Empire army.

In the following list, all infantry is stubborn, on Ld 9, and is actually capable of winning fights because it’s not WS2. When the wizard gets Battle Lust to go off, the entire line will have frenzy and hatred. Plus, you may actually be able to pull off a detachment counter-charge (I don’t really believe this to happen often, but it’s possible). Ld9 will actually stick around, even after losing ranks. And you’ve got about 60 points left over for whatever you’d like: more archers, or magic items. Move some points around and pick up more knights, and/or make the knights you have stubborn too.

Is this a great, tournament winning list? I don’t think so. But it will absolutely outperform the infantry lists people have made from Brettonia attempting to recreate TVI style lists because they think Brettonia does it better… they don’t.

===
TVI Empire [1934 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Empire of Man
===

++ Characters [407 pts] ++

General of the Empire [101 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- General
- On foot
- Charmed Shield

Captain of the Empire [81 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Battle Standard Bearer
- On foot
- Charmed Shield

Wizard Lord [225 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- On foot
- Lore Familiar
- Wizard's Familiar
- Dark Magic

++ Core Units [1117 pts] ++

50 Veteran State Troops [515 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Thrusting spears
- Light armour
- Shields
- Sergeant (champion)
- Standard bearer [Banner of Iron Resolve]
- Musician

25 State Troops [175 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Shields
- Detachment

25 State Troops [175 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Shields
- Detachment

5 Empire Archers [35 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Warbows

5 Empire Archers [35 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Warbows

4 Empire Knights [94 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Musician

4 Empire Knights [88 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour

++ Special Units [410 pts] ++

Great Cannon [125 pts]
- Great cannon
- Hand weapons

Great Cannon [125 pts]
- Great cannon
- Hand weapons

5 Pistoliers [80 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Brace of pistols
- Heavy armour

5 Pistoliers [80 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Brace of pistols
- Heavy armour

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

[Gorim]

Exile list doesnt have WS2. And your characters can die to monstrous infantry/cavalry regular dudes,  they are so weak.

[commandant]

Those detachments are huge. They sre basically units by themselves.   It might be worth making that parent unit smaller (say 25) and each of the detachments  at say (10) and using the extra points to bring in more stubborn infantry (greatswords) or another wizard or tool up your characters or bring in some priests.

[Contrapèl]

Clymer, I really like your Empire list. The combination of detachments with dark magic can be nasty. My main concern would be that the large unit becomes a big target for your opponent; I prefer to scatter my points in a list like this. Also, as noted, relatively fragile characters means you may be left with ld 7 units, and that could be lethal. What I like most about Brettonian Exiles is their relative independence from character’s leadership. Yeomen Guard, a men-at-arms-like unit in the arcane journal, comes with Warband, and the Exile’s Vow adds veteran and stubborn to the knights.

Still, totally worth trying in my opinion. You are definitely on to something.


In the meantime, I made some changes to my list to account for character’s Ld not stacking with warbands, and incidentally to bring in some flyers.

So the Exiles are back! And yes, they come packed with…

Mundane weapons!

Level 3 wizards!

Doomed tactics!

Peasantry!

Seriously, if that doesn’t make you excited I don’t know what will.



Characters (613)

Baron, Exile’s Vow, royal pegasus, lance, Charmed Shield, Falcon-horn of Fredmund 209

Paladin, BSB, Exile’s Vow, royal pegasus, lance, Charmed Shield, Ruby Ring 159

Outcast wizard, level 3, Elementalism, Lore Familiar 135

Outcast wizard, level 3, Daemonology, Earthing Rod 110


Core (842)

25 Yeomen Guard, thrusting spears, standard, musician, champion, grail monk 150

24 Yeomen Guard, thrusting spears, standard, musician, champion, grail monk 145

24 Yeomen Guard, thrusting spears, standard, musician, champion, grail monk 145

5 Mounted Knights of the Realm, Exile’s Vow, musician, champion 134

5 Mounted Knights of the Realm, Exile’s Vow, musician, champion 134

5 Mounted Knights of the Realm, Exile’s Vow, musician, champion 134


Special (144)

8 Squires, scouts, musician, standard 74

5 squires 35

5 squires 35


Rare (400)

Border Princes Bombard 100

Border Princes Bombard 100

Field Trebuchet 100

Field Trebuchet 100


Total: 2000



I had to renounce the brigands and a knights unit to make room for the mounts and upgrade to a Baron, but now the general and BSB can act on their own, so no net loss of independent units there. The ability to fly adds an extra layer of mobility, and the yeomen guard can now go without characters in them, making them more expendable. I opted for royal pegasi rather than regular ones because 30 extra points add quite a lot: +1 T, +1S, +1A, +1I and stomp attacks. With that, the characters start to be units worth noting by themselves, rather than mere nuisances.

The small units of squires, or as I like to call them, slowdowners, are there to march-column towards the enemy at an angle, forcing a charge and hopefully slowing a unit down for a turn (therefore the name). Not really a game changer tactic, but I reckon this can still be worth it.

I still believe I can’t stop nasty units from getting in my backyard. Hopefully sacrificing some yeomen guard wins some time, but I’m open to ideas.

[Skyros]

I think it's a very intriguing idea. Certainly I'm more excited to explore making an Empire list that is Bretonnian exiles, and seeing if it works, than in trying empire list.

I don't know if TVI style infantry heavy tactics work in this edition (where there is more emphasis on winning by eventually killing out your enemy, than breaking them in one turn of static CR and running them down) but if it CAN work, it's much more likely to work in the bretonnian exiles list, because you get so much stuff 'for free' from them. The exiles vow on your knights is amazing. Your infantry is way cheaper and way better. The wizards is cheaper, the cannons are cheaper, etc. You could try a 'pure' empire list, or sprinkle in a couple things like pegasus knights.

I think I'd stay away from trebuchets though.

[king ink]

@ Clymer
I like your approach but I don't agree with some points, because I think that in TOW a pure TVI cannot be used, especially because the detachments are weakened and the state troops in the (only) three games I played did not prove to be reliable and effective.
The idea of having all stubborn troops is good but the parent unit is too expensive and this betrays the spirit of the TVI which is based above all on the points denial tactic as well as on outnumber the enemy.

As I was saying, I only played three games, two against the Warriors of Chaos (without dragon) and one against the greenskins, achieving one victory (by just over a hundred points) against chaos and two draws. I noticed that I didn't deploy detachments and maneuvering seemed easier. The best units turned out to be 28 FC with seven models front rank. I deploy these units on the flanks and they performed very well against light cavalry and skirmishers but still versatile on every situation; Steamtank hasn't always be effective but he's a threat the enemy can't ignore and hard points to take. The Outriders are fragile but lethal. Knights can be very useful, but must be used with care. I prefer five to charge the enemy's flank (vanilla knights).
The flagellants are excellent. I deploy one unit with 17 models in six wide ranks. I would be tempted to give up the tank and field 2 units.
L4's Wizard Lord is also excellent.

I think that the next game I will experiment a list like this:

The Empire of Man - [2000pts]


## Characters [470pts]
Captain of the Empire: Hand Weapon, Full Plate Armour, Charmed Shield, Burning Blade
Lector of Sigmar:  Hand Weapon, Light Armour, War Altar of Sigmar, 2x Barded Warhorse, Hand Weapon, Great Weapon, General
Wizard Lord [160pts]: Hand Weapon, Wizard Level 4, Demonology or Dark magic

## Core [576pts]
Empire Knights [116pts]:
• 5x Empire Knight: Barded Warhorse, Barding, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance
• 1x Preceptor
Empire Knights [110pts]:
• 5x Empire Knight: Barded Warhorse, Barding, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance
2x Free Company Militia [175pts]:
• 28x Militia Fighter: Throwing Weapon, Two Hand Weapon
• 1x Militia Leader

## Special [461pts]
Empire Greatswords [229pts]:
• 19x Greatsword: Full Plate Armour, Great Weapon, Hand Weapon
• 1x Count's Champion
• 1x Standard Bearer
• 1x Musician
Great Cannon [125pts]: Great Cannon, Gun Crew, Hand Weapon
Outriders [107pts]:
• 5x Outrider: Empire Warhorse, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Pistol, Repeater Handgun
• 1x Sharpshooter: Repeater Handgun
• 1x Musician

## Rare [493pts]
Empire Steam Tanks [265pts]:
• 1x Steam Tank: Engineer Commander, Steam Cannon, Steam Gun
Flagellants [228pts]:
• 17x Flagellant: Flail, Hand Weapon
• 1x Prophet of Doom

This is a heavy infantry list, with two units stubborn, two units unbreakable, two units (FC) leadership 10 and the others leadership 8, with the exception of Outriders. most units can be either an anvil or a hammer.

The deployment could be from left to right of the battlefield:

FC - Knights - war altar - greatswords - flagellants - tank - Knights - FC

The Outriders with vanguard move can move forward of the front line at any point you prefer with respect to the opponent's deployment while the cannon can be deployed at one end of the front line where you expect to have a good line of sight.

because of their leadership 8 it makes no difference which character is the general. Obviously the wizard must be positioned beyond 12" from the war altar and the captain goes with greatswords because the special rule "Hold The Line".
 
Obviously you can choose the general of the empire to have leadership 9 and give up the war altar, but I like to test its effectiveness.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

For those interested: a more detailed analysis of the TVI tactica can be found here.

[Contrapèl]

I think it's a very intriguing idea. Certainly I'm more excited to explore making an Empire list that is Bretonnian exiles, and seeing if it works, than in trying empire list.

I don't know if TVI style infantry heavy tactics work in this edition (where there is more emphasis on winning by eventually killing out your enemy, than breaking them in one turn of static CR and running them down) but if it CAN work, it's much more likely to work in the bretonnian exiles list, because you get so much stuff 'for free' from them. The exiles vow on your knights is amazing. Your infantry is way cheaper and way better. The wizards is cheaper, the cannons are cheaper, etc. You could try a 'pure' empire list, or sprinkle in a couple things like pegasus knights.

I think I'd stay away from trebuchets though.

You make a very good point regarding the 'type' of kills. Certainly this edition seems to be very much about grinding until the opponent dies or breaks, but it still leaves a door open to running units down fast with the double US rule. TVI tactics fall clearly in the second category and I don't think we could adapt them for the first one, so we should work with what we have. Fortunately, this kind of list tends to have high US, so this shouldn't be a lost cause. A combat involving some yeomen guard and a couple of knights units on the charge should pack some punch, both in CR and in US, so there is hope for that.

As for trebuchets, I'm not sure about them. In principle, I want to have as much shooting as possible, but regular BS3 shooting seems to be lacking. So trebuchets are an obvious option. Even if inaccurate, a S5 template seems good, or at the very least threatening for the opponent. Unfortunately, I don't have experience with stonetrowers (unless you count being at the receiving end of them, of course), and I don't have a regular playing group yet, so it may take some time until I can try them. (So by the way, as I already said for me this TVI tactica is still a theoretical exercise, and it will be for a while.)

[Contrapèl]

For those interested: a more detailed analysis of the TVI tactica can be found here.

Thanks! I'm pretty sure I'd already read that at some point and found it very inspiring. So recovering it is great!