Wow, lot's of repostes!
First off, I need to tell you that mostly I was just being cheeky with my list. I don't think a massed infantry Empire list will be all that great, nor do I think an Brettonian exiles infantry list will be all that great. I'm just trying to point out that if you want to go that direction, the Empire is not hopeless... at least not anymore that Brettonian Exiles are. The list that I wrote is not something I would run, except maybe in a friendly game or as the core line in very large game, say 3000 to 4000 points.
But to keep the conversation going, here's some reponses:
Exile list doesnt have WS2.
I didn't realize that. Thanks for pointing it out.
And your characters can die to monstrous infantry/cavalry regular dudes, they are so weak.
They are super weak! But:
- They are no weaker than the OP's paladins in his initial list
- I've never been the one arguing for the self-imposed restriction against demigryph characters, just trying to play by the rules of others here.
- There's plenty of points to be found in this list to toughen them up if you want to, even if you want to leave them on foot.
- As they are, they are weak, and super expendable! When they die, they won't be missed much.
- Characters on foot with only a 3+ armor save are less vulnerable than I think most people realize. My opponent is more likely trying to win the combat than slay characters. Is he going to allocate attacks against my WS5, T4, Sv 3+ characters, or allocated them against my WS4, T3, Sv 6+ infantry? Probably the infantry if he's going for combat resolution. That helps the characters stay safer than you'd think when in an infantry block.
Those detachments are huge. They sre basically units by themselves.
That's the point
Shave the parent unit down to 48 and the detahcments down to 24 each, and run them 6 wide in 4 ranks if you'd like. That alone will get you 32 points to shift to characters. Shave the parent down to 40 and the detachments down to 20 and you get another 160 points to shift to characters or whatever and you haven't really diminished the offensive ability of the units, but have sacrficed some survivability.
Sure, as you said, you can pare them all back to more "normal" unit/detachment sizes of 30-ish and 10-15ish. But then your detachments are more like traditional detachments, rather than units in their own right. Which also totally fine, just a different approach than what I was going for. Honestly, it would be more realistic to play the way you describe in a 2000 point game.
@ Clymer
I like your approach but I don't agree with some points, because I think that in TOW a pure TVI cannot be used, especially because the detachments are weakened and the state troops in the (only) three games I played did not prove to be reliable and effective.
The idea of having all stubborn troops is good but the parent unit is too expensive and this betrays the spirit of the TVI which is based above all on the points denial tactic as well as on outnumber the enemy.
Thanks! I agree, TVI is not a viable tactic in TOW. At least not as it was envisioned as an army based around 3 units of 25-30 state troops with detachments trying to win combats on static resolution alone. Even if the rules for countercharging hadn't changed and state troops still cost the same and swordsmen still had a 4+ save, it wouldn't be viable because the environment has changed. Big magic spells, improvements to monstrous mounts and the proliferation of flying units would all have made TVI a non-starter in this edition. It was already dying out towards the end of 7th with the release of Daemons and Dark Elves who could simply dance around it and outshoot it.
Obviously, despite the name I gave it, the list I posted is not a classic TVI list. I just named it that to be consistent with the usage in this and other Brett exile lists/posts that say "TVI" but also are not really classic TVI lists, but give a strong nod towards TVI tactics.
As far as points denial, you may be right; that parent block is not expendable. But to get those points, they will have to do 50 wounds of damage first. Not impossible, but pretty hard to do, I would guess.
For those interested: a more detailed analysis of the TVI tactica can be found here.
Thank you for sharing! This still inspires many, even 20 years later!
One thing I want to point out though about TVI is that it wasn't necessarily, "Here's how you win games with three infantry blocks". It was, "How do I take an army of the seemingly weakest units in one of the weakest armies in the game, and make them effective beyond expectations?"
In that spirit, there is a lot that people can try out that doesn't conform to the classic TVI list design. I actually think the flying halberd column discussed in other threads is a perfect application of this philosophy, even though it's not what we would think of as a classic TVI list. Maybe the all-stubborn infantry line with massive detachments will also find a home. I have no idea and even kind of doubt it, but we'll see.
