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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Empire 8th Army Book => Topic started by: Sir Paradus Hithili on February 22, 2009, 11:03:15 AM
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Though it is far off I thought I would see how you fellow members would update the empire in 8th ed.
This is how I would do it.
Lords.
1. Elector counts: +1 attack, all friendly fleeing units within 18'' of him auto rally, 90pts.
2. Arch lector: +1 attack, 135pts, War altar +150pts.
Rest the same.
Heroes.
1. Master engineers: +1 Bs, can take 50pts of magic items, Get rid of the robo horse!, 55pts.
Rest the same.
Core.
1. Halberdiers: Armour piercing.
2. Halberdiers, spearmen and swordsmen can take a 25pt magic banner.
3. Huntsmen 1-1 per archer unit, +1 Bs, min size 5, 11pts.
Rest the same.
Special.
1. Pistoliers get back Fulisade, 19pts.
2. Inner circle knights upgrade +2pts, not +3.
3. Greatswords: str 4 base (if elf elites can get str 4 base I think GS's should too), 50pt magic banner, 11pts.
4. New unit: Ogre mercenaries, same stats as ogre bulls without the bull charge, command options, Heavy armour and +1 weapon or great weapon options, 30pts base.
Rest the same.
Rare.
1. Helblaster: 100pts
2. New unit: Mercenary giant, exactly the same as a normal giant.
3. Flagellants: +1 T, 12pts.
4. Stank: gives half VP's when at half wounds, takes up 2 rare slots.
Items.
1. Dragon bow: x2 shots, 35pts.
2. Runefang: 75pts.
3. Mace of helstrum: 50pts.
4. Wyrm sword: 10pts.
5. Gilded armour: 35pts
6. Rat slayer: 15pts
7. Jade amulet: 30pts
8. White cloak: 30pts
9. Griffon standard: 50pts
10. Banner of the valour: Unit ItP.
11. Banner of Sigismund: 45pts.
12. Imperial banner: 80pts.
13. Banner of Duty: auto pass rally tests: 15pts.
Done.
How would you do it?
cheers.
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Get ready for a lot of people making sarcastic or aggressive comments, and telling you to use the search function! I advise ignoring them.
Anyway, I want barding to be optional for knights.
Master engineers: +1 Bs, can take 50pts of magic items, Get rid of the robo horse!, 55pts.
Yes!
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BSB can take normal gear.
No robo horse, +1bs on engineer.
Halberdiers, spearmen and free company -1 pt each. Shields still cost 1 pt.
Inner circle upgrade 2 pts, down from 3.
Greatswords allowed 50pt banner.
War Altar 150 pts.
Longbows on huntsmen.
That'd be it. I reckon it's pretty good already.
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I would say add Pikemen for a core unit (same as DoW), add light cavalry as core (Same as DoW) and
Lancers 15 pts/model
M Ws Bs S T W A I Ld
4 3 3 3 3 1 1 3 7
unit; 5+
w/ hw, heavy armour, shield, lance and warhorse
add command choice and have them as a core.
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1. Elector counts: +1 attack, all friendly fleeing units within 18'' of him auto rally, 90pts.
2. Arch lector: +1 attack, 135pts, War altar +150pts.
War altar and AL total price is too high to be worth it imo. I say 125 pts for the altar. And the Elector Count doesn't cost enough to have that ability.
Other than that I like it.
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Yeah, that all will be nice, I am starting to be fed of by our iracional weak infantry compared to megakillers in new WoCH and Lizardmen armybooks, of course they are expensive in points, but those units are so mighty, that they easily cut rhtew everithing we have and win a combat even egeanst a unit with Griffon banner and 2 charging detachs.
But I dont think, that we get anything of this ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic::
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I would add one more thing. Greatswors should not be considered as wielding greatweapons and should have in4, couse believe me, two heanded sword is more swifter, than a greataxe, hammer . . .
They are elite infantry hell, but they almost never kill anything cause they strike last and honestly dont have so good touhnes and AS to survive until they swing . . .
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Halbadiers with heavy armour option!
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Halflings!
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I'd pay an extra 15 points or so to be able to take the engineer out back and shoot him.
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I would say add Pikemen for a core unit
add light cavalry as core
I am starting to be fed of by our iracional weak infantry compared to megakillers in new WoCH and Lizardmen armybooks, of course they are expensive in points
I love this board.
Phil
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Get ready for a lot of people making sarcastic or aggressive comments, and telling you to use the search function! I advise ignoring them.
I love this board.
:::cheers:::
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You can always rely on PhillyT to step in when people might be in danger of having fun. :icon_biggrin:
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But I am having fun! This one is nearly as good as the 5th time we did this, when it stretched to 10 pages, but not as good as the 11th one!
:D
Phil
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I am all for just a basic lancer and light cav unit... that would fix all of my problems :-D
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I love every single one of these ideas, except that you can already take ogres and giants as mercenaries so I think you should just leave it that way
I love the auto-rally for elector counts they should just cost more
I agree about the engineer, and we should make superglue out of all of those robohorses, worst idea ive ever seen ::heretic:: ::heretic::
The pike and lancer Ideas are the best of all i think, love the lancers and pike fluff too. Imagine the RIDICULOUSLY awesome models that those could be! :eusa_clap:
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I love the bit in the riders of the dead book about the imperial Demi-lancers units, instead of them being pistoliers , they were light cav lancers (though they did have pistols aswell) I like this idea.
Maybe a core unbarded lancer unit that can be upgraded to pistoliers for the cost of a special slot. IDK just throwing Ideas out there.
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New plastic knights, war altar, and griffon.
Oh, you mean the rules? Our rules are fine, it's all the other army books that need to be changed. :P
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What about an option to take tac nuke warheads for our rocket battery?
Make it an upgrade for the engineer and no one would say he's useless anymore.
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Oh, a wish list? :-D
Let's see:
- elector count: add a little extra to show he's a real leader of men. Re-rolling psych tests perhaps within his general's radius, or an 18" radius for his LD, or... Also, add some useful magic banners.
- bsb: normal equipment options likealmost allother armies, please.
- state troopers: add pikemen, rules as in DoW list, 9 pts, no detachments. Also, spears get three ranks and halberds two ranks to make them worth it and add something special.
- fast cav: I'd love to see a lancer-like unit. Perhaps light armour, shield, lance and pistol for equipment?
- make huntsmen useful again (and min size 5) please
- engineer: well... I'll shut up, best left alone.
- mortar: make a 2 for 1 special choice perhaps? In any case make it useful compared to the cannon. It's not bad, it's just in the special section and competing with even better choices.
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- bring reiksguard on foot back. (0-1 max in core) - Full plate, shield and hw. 9 points each. Upgradeable to Inner Circle for 3 more points (and unit becomes a special choice)
- replace spearmen by pikemen (same rules as DOW)
- ogres, dwarves and halflings as rare. No giant.
- Make FC skirmish and give them dual pistol options (with all these options, they should cost about 12 pts each). If this one goes through, consider removing Archers from the list.
- drop the engineer from the Character choices and make it a unit upgrade.
- add witch hunter to the character list (hero choice). Gives special abilities vs undead and all things chaos.
- GotE. Agreed that this guy is not really worth it today. The other available choices are much better. Either give the chap a higher LD radius (as suggested by a few people already) or let him allow a different army composition (eg : allow one more special Choice per 1k tranche).
- overall point costs for core should go down significantly.
- mortars should be 1-2 per special slot.
- Stank with actual warhammer rules.
- Bring back the cavalry hammer. (increase point cost if needed)
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By looking at this thread it seems that most want to add the best from 6th E, keep the best from 7th and add some of the best from DoW :::cheers:::
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I'd like to see the war altar removed, as I'm not a fan of things that are damned near mandatory to be competitive in the current environment.
Better options for fast cav.
pikes
special rule allowing halberds to fight in 2 ranks even when charging would make them worth taking.
stank nerfed to shit. I hate that thing, and I play empire.
Make the griffon banner 50 points again so the GotE is mildly useful.
In general incorporate DoW since they aren't getting a new book anytime soon.
Lower the cost of infantry to reflect the current points values of other armies. The detachment rules alone are not enough with all the powerhouse armies being released.
Fix huntsmen.
remove the engineer completely.
Make the army viable in the current environment.
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Yes, that is a nice thing! Would give us a true army that will not have to relly only on gadgets to win battles! :icon_mrgreen:
Well, I have some suggestions to bring Greatswords into line with their new looks. Heck, we do not need another unit not looking their part. After all, it is kind of not fair towards people to have to be versed in all rules aspects of all WHFB books to play a game without suffering simple suprises.
If I was up against Empire for the first time, and saw the greatswords, I would not bother to ask about their armour save since they could not be better than 5+ at most by looking at them. You must have great weapons visible for the unit to have greatweapons. I even belive there is a rule in the rulebook that a unit can have some different weapons mixed in, BUT the majority MUST have the correct weapon.
It must be obvious if the unit have spears, halberds etc... You must be able to see the standards and musician. As I get it, it is okay with some single oddity even in a tournament, but basically, it is about good sportsmanship to be clear about what kind of unit it is.
Now, if weapons are so important to represent on the unit, would not armour level be the same? I think it should. To me, it is important to know if the cavalry is barded or not, for example.
I think it is a bit like double standards. It is also about making it fair for both players. If you have to ask about every single unit to know what it has and don´t have, it sure will not make the game run faster.
For old grunts like many of us, mostly playing friends, it is not that big a deal, because each unit should be familiar. But for beginners this could be a bit bothersome, methinks. My sons would not be too impressed with the GS new plate. At least the old models did their best to look the part, the new plastics are not even trying.
Hence, I belive that it would be nicer, and more cool, to give the GS heavy armour, but also give them T4, just to show how badass hard these vets are.
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I said it before and I say it again...
The only thing the EAB needs is a general who can fart lightning and spew fireballs.
The rest of the "needs" in this thread are just ridiculous - like hard as nails state troopers and Black Orc boss similar fighting general.
I rather see a general who can boost the state troopers (like Halberdiers) with a solid banner, make one greatsword unit core with a decent banner, and some better magic items.
There are more examples but this covers one thing that "irks" me.
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we need a standardisation of equipment rules- ie our BSB should be able to have full mundane.
And Engineers should be improved
The Waltar's cost should go up.
and the GotE should have some kind of troop enhancing ability (some kind of LD boost and one unit of GS per GotE)
That's it.
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I don't want tougher humans, I want proper points values.
take skinks for example vs a halberdier.
skinks have -1WS, -1T, and -1Ld. What they DO have is M6, I4, cold blooded, aquatic, poisoned attacks, javelins and can take Kroxigor.
All at the same point as our supposed mainstay troop.
our troops are too little for too much. I'm not saying make them stronger, I'm saying make them cheaper.
And yes, all of our characters are terrible leaders.
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I said it before and I say it again...
The only thing the EAB needs is a general who can fart lightning and spew fireballs.
It already has that - take a wizard lord as your general and you can choose whether you'd rather fart lightning or spew fireballs. If you take the ring of volans and get lucky, he'll be able to do both.
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Oh, a wish list? :-D
Let's see:
- elector count: add a little extra to show he's a real leader of men. Re-rolling psych tests perhaps within his general's radius, or an 18" radius for his LD, or... Also, add some useful magic banners.
- bsb: normal equipment options likealmost allother armies, please.
- state troopers: add pikemen, rules as in DoW list, 9 pts, no detachments. Also, spears get three ranks and halberds two ranks to make them worth it and add something special.
- fast cav: I'd love to see a lancer-like unit. Perhaps light armour, shield, lance and pistol for equipment?
- make huntsmen useful again (and min size 5) please
- engineer: well... I'll shut up, best left alone.
- mortar: make a 2 for 1 special choice perhaps? In any case make it useful compared to the cannon. It's not bad, it's just in the special section and competing with even better choices.
Maybe just a brace of pistols upgrade for the champion, but just lance and shield for the troops.
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I really would like to see, that people here tell us WHY they want this and that changed.
Wishfull thinking is fine, but heck..I think one could do better than "Iwannastrength4forthisndthatandpaylessforit"..
e.g. halberdiers with armor piercing and /or heavy armor...would that really help (a lot)? Vs. most units this halberdiers would still die in drows and would never to be able to beat back (for they seldom charge ).
I also would like to see some changes to the basic rules first (why is heavy cav. still faster in woods than infantry?) ...
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v. Sturmfeld, here's why I'm wishing the below changes
- bring reiksguard on foot back. (0-1 max in core) - Full plate, shield and hw. 9 points each. Upgradeable to Inner Circle for 3 more points (and unit becomes a special choice)
Reason : We only have one "elite" infantry unit (GS)... I do not think another "elite" unit (with the best possible save) would hurt.
- replace spearmen by pikemen (same rules as DOW)
Reason : The pike makes a lot more sense than the spear. The Empire is relatively quite advanced and I believe the lance should have been long gone in most Imperial armies. (some will say we can play pikemen and 'count them as" spearmen, but why not have pikes for real?
- ogres, dwarves and halflings as rare. No giant.
reason : fluffwise, this makes sense and it clearly makes the Empire a real fantasy army (and not some pseudo-historical force in a fantasy setting).
- Make FC skirmish and give them dual pistol options (with all these options, they should cost about 12 pts each). If this one goes through, consider removing Archers from the list.
reason : fighting in regiments take a lot of practice and discipline. I cannot picture free companies fighting in ranks (even though they do so by the current rules). I think that there are the one unit in the whole empire army that should be skirmishing. I'm not going to deny that the pistol option is coming from DOW and it would make perfect sense for skirmishing units to use short range weapons such as pistols.
- drop the engineer from the Character choices and make it a unit upgrade.
Reason: do you need a reason for that???
- add witch hunter to the character list (hero choice). Gives special abilities vs undead and all things chaos.
Reason : with a useless character choice gone, we have some free space for something else, that might actually be useful... Now that the warrior priest gives hatred vs ANY enemy (and no longer chaos), it would be nice to have some specific "Anti-chaos" character in the army (should not be too powerful (eg: limiting the choice of armour / giving them some drawbacks like needing to roll not to fail to chaos etc), but would be fluffy. Finally you have a full mordheim range that could be used to support this new character type, so why not?
- GotE. Agreed that this guy is not really worth it today. The other available choices are much better. Either give the chap a higher LD radius (as suggested by a few people already) or let him allow a different army composition (eg : allow one more special Choice per 1k tranche).
Reason :GotE are leaders, not fighters. Their lack of fighting skills are well reflected in their profile, however I think their leadership is not. (and LD alone is not enough. Elves are supposed to be fast, but this is not only justified by them having higher I, but also some special rules. Why would it be different for us?
- overall point costs for core should go down significantly.
Reason : In terms of point cost, there is a clear gap between older books like ours and the newer ones. DE can now outnumber Empire or Orc players with superior core choices, I think everyone with sense will agree there is something odd there..
- mortars should be 1-2 per special slot.
Reason : Being a special choice, they have to compete with better / more interesting choices, we need to make them more attractive. I believe it's the same reasoning that developers have had with orc chukkas or dwarf bolt throwers. Had these been 1 per special slot, I guess we'd not see them very often.
- Stank with actual warhammer rules.
Reason : again, is a reason needed for that? The Stank is loathed by a lot of players because it is believed to be cheesy (I can't really judged as I have not used it enough to make my mind) and its rules are not in line with the "logic" behind the game system. Make it simpler to use, like a chariot and done.
- Bring back the cavalry hammer. (increase point cost if needed)
Reason : my white wolves want it back :-)
[/quote]
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Reason : again, is a reason needed for that? The Stank is loathed by a lot of players because it is believed to be cheesy (I can't really judged as I have not used it enough to make my mind) and its rules are not in line with the "logic" behind the game system. Make it simpler to use, like a chariot and done.
Most of the stuff you want is something I don't, but this particular quote riddles me.
What?
Sure you ain't talking about the old Stank rules here? :icon_confused:
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One reason for Demi-lancers..... SO I CAN USE MY DAMED WINGED LANCERS RIGHT :-D
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I think Empire Generals should have the option to equip all of their soldiers with mulberry pie, that way when they are engaged they can encourage their enemy to sit down and have a picnic instead of fighting.
Seriously though, the only change I need to see in 8th edition is a slight improvement on halberds on the whole...armor piercing might do the trick but actually it will probably help empire halberds the least for reasons stated in previous posts.
Also, if we are just wishlisting here, I want inner circle knights to revert to 0-1 core choice...so I can squeeze another cannon into my 2,500 pt list....but really that’s just me being greedy.
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The champion upgrade would be great (not so different in game play).
Give him the same equipment as the captain witout the mount and BSB options.
I would be awesome! Have you seen the pictures of The Empire? The campion always have a pistol or better armor.
On the infantry, down with the griffon banner to 50 and let the Elector/general to give 50 pts to a infantry or 75 pt to greatswords.
And then boost with some more banners and give greatswords 50 pts magic banner.
And the Reiksguard of foot must come back!
Give halberds 25 pts magic banner, and a banner only they can take like:
The Guardsman pride
Magic banner 25 pts; Halberds only
The unit gets bonus from one more rank (to max +4), will not work if The griffon banner is in the unit.
Not a big change and the name gets good with halbeards normal job (town guards)
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Reason : again, is a reason needed for that? The Stank is loathed by a lot of players because it is believed to be cheesy (I can't really judged as I have not used it enough to make my mind) and its rules are not in line with the "logic" behind the game system. Make it simpler to use, like a chariot and done.
Most of the stuff you want is something I don't, but this particular quote riddles me.
What?
Sure you ain't talking about the old Stank rules here? :icon_confused:
I see what you mean.. It's true that the current Stank rules are better than the old ones (old being Ed 6th). This being said, I'm just observing that a lot of people are still finding the current rules to be difficult to play with. I'm sure the rules for the Stank could be simplified further and if they did so, the Stank would probably be more "accepted" by players than it is today.
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I'd like to see a light cavalry unit with hand weapon as a given, but with options for weapons like lances, a single pistol, bows, and maybe even light crossbows. The latter might need an option for armor since it would likely be "move or shoot".
I'd like to see the engineer improved, point cost reduced, or as an upgrade option for the artillery. The last idea might be the best, because it is tough to justify taking one currently, since it takes up a hero slot, and the other choices are better of what we face from the other armies.
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How about not making the engineer an upgrade, but rather for every engineer you have, you can take either a cannon or mortar for a core choice (though they don't count towards min. core choices)
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Seriously, the only problem I see that even rises to the level of almost needing a fix is the unbalanced lord choices. Everyhting else (halberds, engineers, etc.) is minor and doesn't affect how most Empire armies play. We have 7 viable core choices and 3 viable hero choices. In the grand scheme of things that's balanced. I mean, are our core troops really that bad?
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I love our core troops!
I just want something to represent a basic light cav unit and I would be happy :-D
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Here's an idea for the General of the empire to make him useful: When joining a unit of state troops, that unit gains +1 armour save to the front -or- they choose to strike with +1 rank.
Example: GOTE joins a unit of halberdiers. They may choose to modify their save to a 5+ OR they can strike in two ranks. He joins a unit of spearmen: Spearmen modify their save to 4+ OR they strike in 3 ranks.
This is justifiable by fluff(inspired by his presence, general's drill etc), and possibly applicable to captains as well by giving the GOTE the ability to use both at once and the captain having to choose one instead.
It gives players incentive to make fluffy armies because regular captains and GOTE will be worth taking, our infantry will be able to stand up against anything better than a goblin, and they will have strong offensive as well as defensive capabilities. In addition there won't be any need to make point reductions or adding more special rules to our regular infantry.
Just an idea.
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See , I love the idea of a GOTE, but I do think that something needs to be done with him...
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I know were human and weak but for goodness sake give us some good banners and more of them within the 50 point range. What we have now stinks to put it mildly other races are stronger and have better banners to boot.
Empire needs some punch to our army other than only expensive knights, how about one core guard unit or do the strongest humans just switch over and become Chaos Warriors?
Make Engineer usefull to artillery or get rid of them, I hate having lame choices.
Have the Ka-boom on the Hellblaster volley gun just heat up the barrel so much that you lose firing ability for the next turn instead of eliminating the gun and crew, that would make more sense, we have enough things that blow up on us already.
Well that is just a few ideas and parden my venting.
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Here's an idea for the General of the empire to make him useful: When joining a unit of state troops, that unit gains +1 armour save to the front -or- they choose to strike with +1 rank.
Example: GOTE joins a unit of halberdiers. They may choose to modify their save to a 5+ OR they can strike in two ranks. He joins a unit of spearmen: Spearmen modify their save to 4+ OR they strike in 3 ranks.
This is justifiable by fluff(inspired by his presence, general's drill etc), and possibly applicable to captains as well by giving the GOTE the ability to use both at once and the captain having to choose one instead.
Thats the worst justification for the worst rule change
Just make his leadership bonus range increase and call it good. I like captains and the GotE just got screwed by the banners getting screwed. No knights on foot, we dont need better swordsmen. I do like the toughness four on Greatswords. In general make the Empire more fantasy, not industrial.
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I like having weak, inferior human soldiers, thats what makes playing the empire so much fun.
You know what makes the Empire so much fun to play??
Its that you have to be quite a good general to use them - not just good at writing nasty army lists - which any gimp with £15 and a pen and paper can do.
2 things though
Robo horse can go away - its about as welcome as Jo Brand
And steam tanks, yeah I get it, they can be fun, but the bottom line is:
IF I WANT TANKS I'LL PLAY WARHAMMER 40'000 FFS!!!!! :icon_redface:
I received a reprimand for this post as my language, I admit was a bit on the crude side - which is a little 'not the done thing' for a general of the Empire(we're aristocrats after all) and I apologise if anything I said offended anybody, I kindly ask the moderaters to please inform me if any of my future posts contatins overly inappropriate language and I will happily modify it.
many thanks,
Dan Sanders
It wasn't a reprimand so much as a reminder to town down the off color a bit outside the Back Table. We got a complaint about the language in the post but it's all good. :::cheers::: - Perambulator
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Yeah I'm not to into the steam tank, but they most likely aren't going anywhere.
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Oh Reiksguard Foot! I forgot all about those!
Dear GWSanta
I hereby recind my reqest for Halbadiers with Heavy Armour. In its stead i would really like Rieksguard foot back. Its not too much to ask to return what was stolen from me, give me some core heavy infantry.
Riff
-As swordsmen w/ LD 8 and full plate. 2+ save !!!! 8 pts a model.
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I want changes that add little touches to our army. Things that most opponents would not even notice, rather than uber leet units.
Try to enforce the State troop element of Empire Armies. We have the detachment rules so little things to help enhance the flavour. Like State Regiments get free Commands if you take a unit of 20 (GW can sell more mini's which is what they want).
Engineers are not a character choice but simply an upgrade you buy for an artillery piece. That can reroll the artillery dice on a misfire.
Give the Elector Count 'command' abilities. Try to improve his roll as a commander maybe he could have a "rally' ability and rally one fleeing troop in 12 inches or a "defend' ability he could make one unit stubborn in a combat or a "engage" maybe he could allow a unit an extra move.
Again the idea being to give Empire tactical abilities, so your army is not about uber units but about using command and control to be effective. All units are needed to make up the sum of the army, each regiment operates in conjunction with other elements of the army.
This may effect the fantasy hero vs hero element of WHFB. But the idea would be to make players buy lots of figures (GW is a miniature company they make games so you buy figures).
Keep the skirmishing archers as the bow is actually the main weapon of the empire. Crossbows were mostly Tilean mercenries.
The robo horse should be a special character model. No one uses engineers except for a bit of fun.
Bring back War Wagons and you can keep Steam tanks (though you all seem to be like me and refuse to take them and use our infantry hoping to dazzle our opponents with our brilliant generalman ship). Though this is like a Dark Elf player saying "oh no I dont use the hydra it is to underpriced.... like anyone would do that).
Empire Handgunners have special 'volley' fire rules. They can shoot in a rear rank maybe at targets under half range. The idea being it is not about individual fire but massed volley fire satuating an area.
Mortars are a two for one special choice. Maybe even a rule to allow battery of units to be brought, 1-3 artillery pieces. Increase the costs and they must be played within 4 inches of one another.
Halberdiers actually have something to show they are the main stay of the Empire. Magic banners, heavy armour.
Free company allow these mercenary scum the ability to maybe move further when chasing down fleeing units. Maybe pistols and they fight as skirmisher in a mish mash of mixed weapons.
Yes and Rieksguard. So heavily armoured infantry who are stubborn. Basically Greatsword but called Rieksguard.
Try to encourage Empire armies to have standards (to enhance the look of the army) so maybe Empire banners are not worth any vps and the battle banner is worth double. Even maybe a rule to "defend the colours!" Empire standards are worth double in working out combat results (then of course they should be worth vp's).
The Empire army should all be about combined tactics. With a few gimmicks of flavour like Warrior Priests, Witch Hunters etc
So far about the only thing opponents hate about my army are 'cannons'. They ignore the fact that my most effective weapon has a 1 in 6 chance of destroying itself when ever it fires.
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I like having weak, inferior human soldiers, that's what makes playing the empire so much fun.
I liked the challenge too and that is why I took Empire but now in my club I'm having to play Daemons, Tomb Kings, Vampires and I getting sick of seeing my troops checking for everything, if they want to attack. if they are attacked, do they auto break etc. Can't rely on detachments, too many checks and no punch. Oh yea cannons are our punch if they don't blow up in our faces first. Am I alone in thinking we need an under 50 point banner that would make us immune to psychology?
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Ben said:
Bring back War Wagons and you can keep Steam tanks (though you all seem to be like me and refuse to take them and use our infantry hoping to dazzle our opponents with our brilliant generalman ship). Though this is like a Dark Elf player saying "oh no I dont use the hydra it is to underpriced.... like anyone would do that).
Hey I kinda do that.
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Rather than extra special choices, have
Grand Master - one core Inner Circle unit
General of the Empire - one core Greatswords unit
Master Engineer - some core Cannons/Mortars
Detachments need to be able to strike first when making counter or supporting charges. ASF really hurt that. Don't know if that can be fixed though as ASF means they still lose to almost everyone else who has it.
Bring back Reiksguard infantry, halberdiers should get heavy armor and either armor piercing or WS4.
And drop the point costs for infantry.
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I'm sure the rules for the Stank could be simplified further and if they did so, the Stank would probably be more "accepted" by players than it is today.
By players sure, by opponents not gonna happen.
If the Stank got normal rules for movement that does not use Steam Points, it would be easier to play with.
At the same time, more opponents would hate something that would get punished and yet come through their lines like a roller when it just had a few wounds left. I would prefer that because if you get two or more wounds knocked off from it, it becomes much less useful.
But I can see the opponents now - "oh no you trashed my BG unit, and even if I had two Hydras ripping all yours a new one, that is so unfair".
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I don´t think changing the steam tank again would be good. It would stop being a Steamtank to start with. Keep them steampoints!
Maybe enable you to make some Kustom jobz on it, that would be grand.
And re-introduce the War wagon for more conservative players.
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I like having weak, shitty human soldiers, that's what makes playing the empire so much fun.
I liked the challenge too and that is why I took Empire but now in my club I'm having to play Daemons, Tomb Kings, Vampires and I getting sick of seeing my troops checking for everything, if they want to attack. if they are attacked, do they auto break etc. Can't rely on detachments, too many checks and no punch. Oh yea cannons are our punch if they don't blow up in our faces first. Am I alone in thinking we need an under 50 point banner that would make us immune to psychology?
If your club is loaded with the fear-causing armies, then the Imperial Banner is definitely one to consider. I agree that all those checks can be a pain.
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At the same time, more opponents would hate something that would get punished and yet come through their lines like a roller when it just had a few wounds left. I would prefer that because if you get two or more wounds knocked off from it, it becomes much less useful.
Meh. I never understood why in WHFB a mechanical creation loses efficiency when damaged, whereas living creatures don't. A dragon on his last wound is just as effective and dangerous as a dragon with 6 wounds. Which is silly - make the damn thing lose a point of WS, A, I and whatnot for every wound it loses!!!
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At the same time, more opponents would hate something that would get punished and yet come through their lines like a roller when it just had a few wounds left. I would prefer that because if you get two or more wounds knocked off from it, it becomes much less useful.
Meh. I never understood why in WHFB a mechanical creation loses efficiency when damaged, whereas living creatures don't. A dragon on his last wound is just as effective and dangerous as a dragon with 6 wounds. Which is silly - make the damn thing lose a point of WS, A, I and whatnot for every wound it loses!!!
What? And have the HE players whine because their dragon is nerfed whenever it gets hit by a nasty man with a gun? :engel:
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HE players whining is a beautiful music to be savoured like a fine wine.
Edit: Or it would be if it weren't common as muck :engel:
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What about elite halberdiers, a perfectly reasonable and fluffy unit?
Spears = peasant/city milita, poor grade unprofessional troops
Swordsmen = elite skirmishers and detachment units (should be sword and buckler)
Halberd = professional retinue soldiers, civil soldiers and standing city army
Pikemen = professional mercenaries, standing army soldiery
Thats how I would like to see it.
Spears, cheap as chips and not very good troops, but safety in numbers.
Swordsmen, good troops as they are now, but acting as skirmishers or detachments only (and new models to show them as much cooler sword and buckler men), provide hard hitting melee backup to the core troops of:
Halberdiers - armour piercing halberds, options on armour type (light or heavy, no shields) - these units served as bodyguards to popes and kings, these dont get more elite.
Pikes - the mainstay soldier of the later medieval, early rennaisance europe, all armour options (no shields), these should be the bread and butter troop of the empire.
Greatswords, historically they are shock troops, no need to change anything about them, perhaps make one unit "unbreakable" to represent their real world use as the "Folorn Hope"
All my personal thoughts, and I am in no doubt it will be hated by some.
100% has to be done is Add pikes & give halbers armour piercing.
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Thats the worst justification for the worst rule change
Uh, why? And again, it was just an idea. I don't see how it's worse than an increased range for the general's LD. It allows our troops to actually do something on their own besides sitting tight, waiting for the cavalry and hoping the enemy doesn't cause fear.
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Characters:
General: +1 WS, units within 12" can reroll panic checks, 95pts
Arch Lector: +1 WS, 135pts
War Alter now 150pts
Master Engineer: BS5, if taken allows A selection of upgrades to be taken on Selected units:
Master Engineer - 60 points.
Master Engineer - 60 points.
Experimental Weaponry: Master Engineers are often seen carrying a range of new experimental weapons that make use of black powder. They are famously temperamental but when they do work they can be extremely effective.
Hochland Long Rifle - Same
Repeater Pistol - Same
Repeater handgun - Same
Pigeon bomb - same.
Any of the ones ive missed are the same.
Scout pigeon - pick a target unit in sight of the engineer, on a 4+ he may measure the distance that unit is from himself or any unit within 5". Can be used before guess range weaponry but cannot use any other weapon that turn regardless of whether it was sucessfull. - 30pts
Grenade Launching Blunderbuss - D3 shots, str 6, counts as multi shot however many shots are generated. May Fire 1 round at str 7 that does d3 wounds. 12" range. Move or Fire. - 30pts
Engineers armoury: Master Engineers can Bring special weaponry, ammunition and knowledge that can aid the missile troops and war machines of the empire. a Master engineer may take upto 50pts These. Special equipment that affects shooting units and war machines only effects shooting units with black powder weaponry, i.e not Crossbow or archers. The upgrades are bought by the engineers themselves but affect the units stated. If the engineer dies in the battle the upgrades on the units are not lost.
One unit or War machine/All units and War Machines.
Incendianary rounds - 5pts/20pts - The missile units/ war machines attacks count as flaming, does not affect hellstorm rocket batterys.
Long Rifles - 10pts/30pts - Outriders, Handgunners and Pistoliers only - the range of these units handguns are increased to 30" from 24", pistols are increased to 10" from 8"
Armour piercing rounds - 15pts/35pts - Not usable on war machines - This units weapons have an extra -1 armour penetration.
Reliable machinery - 20pts/50pts - Cannons and Mortars may ignore thier first missfire (The dice is not rerolled, the Machine does not fire that turn but the table is not rolled upon)
Exotic Weapons expert - 40pts - Hellstorms and hellblasters only - A hellblaster may reroll one of the artillery dice rolled every time it is fired so long as the dice was not a missfire. A hellstorm may reroll the scatter Dice each time it is fired.
Modified powder - 20pts - The master Engineers weapons are increased to str 5 (if not already str 5 or higher)
Wailing rockets - 35 pts - Hellstorm rocket batteries only - One use only - Fire the weapon as normal, if the rockets hit they are at str 3, but any unit hit by the rockets or within 2" of where the template landed they must take a panic test. Units under the hole must take the test at -1 ld (unless stubborn). Units immune to phychology/panic are unaffected as normal.
Smoke grenades - 25 pts per unit - May be given to any infantry unit - The smoke bombs can be deployed in the shooting phase by the unit, but they cannot use any other missile weapons that turn. Next turn, all shooting attacks are at -1 to hit on that unit. They can also be used when the unit flees as a result of panic or terror, in that acse they cannot be shot at at all next turn.
Core units:
Halberdiers: Armour piercing weapons, Heavy armour, 6pts, can no longer take shields.
Spearmen: Front rank get the +1 AS bonus for using a hw and shield even if using spears. (if they are equipped with shields)
Archers: 5 number minimum, Huntsmen are +2pts and have Longbows.
Special: New IC Knights:
Inner Circle Knights (new ones) 0-1
+1 WS +1 STR compared to normal knights, 31pts
Rare: Helblaster volley can can ignore the first missfire it rolls per turn (thought it is not rerolled, it just dosnt generate any shots). Hits on a 4+ at long range and 3+ at short it can be improved +1 by large targets and any other positive modifiers as normal, can only be lowered by magic items that confer to hit penalties. 120pts
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LORDS AND HEROES
General of the Empire allows greatswords to be core. (or at least 1 unit as core)
Engineers become upgrades to artillery crews. Helblaster and helstorm can have them too.
CORE
State Troops all get WS4 or BS4 as appropriate. and can have 25 pt magic banners.
Pikes as a 2pt per model upgrade to spearmen.
Pistoliers as core, but do not fulfill core requirements.
SPECIAL
Greatswords can have magic banner.
Mortars as a 2 for 1 slot choice
MAGIC ITEMS
drop the griffon standard back down to 50 pts.
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Why even talk about it? The next GW writer...errr game designer will ignore everything here in lieu of his superior ideas.
-Grutch
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Bastard will probably introduce the Tesla coil shaped like a skull as an engineer weapon. Or something equally terrible. I don't know, I just can't imagine a good empire book anymore, my mind has been swamped by overwhelming pessimism.
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Has anyone thought of adding pikes, giving halberdiers unbreakability and heavy armor, and raising the engineers BS to 5?
Phil
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I just can't imagine a good empire book anymore, my mind has been swamped by overwhelming pessimism.
Your not the only one. I know humans are weak, and I could accept that, but do they have to be weak in army banners and magic items too. Lower Griffon banner back to 50 points, give Greatswords a banner, have a banner under 50 points that makes the unit immune to psychology. There are now too many fear causing armies out there and with the auto break rule that's too much.
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I like my WS3, BS3 humans. Change swords, spears, halberds, and pikes to "State Troops" - WS3 BS3 guys, 4 pts each - with light armour and a hand weapon. Options for shield (1 pt), spear (1 pt), halberd (1 pt), or pike (4 pts). Each GotE allows you to upgrade one unit to "Veterans" at WS 4, I4, Ld 8 for +2 pts/model. Halberds with the "step over the fallen" rule (the front rank always fights, regardless of casualties); pikes fight in four ranks and count as a defended obstacle. Give all Empire State Troops the ability to gain up to +4 from ranks instead of +3, due to training and discipline, as well as detachments.
Keep Greatswords as are, but add Dismounted Knights as Core, in Full Plate with hand weapon and shield, 10 pts/model; option to swap shield for Greatsword for free. Dismounted Knights are NOT state troops and don't benefit from those rules; Greatswords are, but they are a Special choice. Dismounted Knights keep the option for Inner Circle for +2 pts/model (and become Special). Downgrade Knightly Orders' Inner Circle cost to 2 pts/model. Both Dismounted Knights and Greatswords gain 50 pt magic banner option, and all Knightly Preceptors (mounted and foot) gain option for 25 pts of magic items. Greatswords benefit from the General's leadership when rolling break tests (applied toward their Stubborn ability) if the General is in the unit.
Add Winged Lancers as a Rare choice, keeping their "Glorious Charge" rule, and make Gryphon Legion a 2 pt/model upgrade.
Remove the "Core Flagellants if a Warrior Priest is present" rule.
Add Demilancers as a Core choice. Human on horse in light armour with a lance and sword. Options for full command.
Give Free Companies option to purchase skirmishing (+1 pt/model) and light armour (+1 pt/model).
Some changes to the Steam Tank would be nice, but nothing terribly large. It seems to work pretty well right now, at a good balance between insanely-complicated-but-somewhat-realistic and still-works-in-game.
A couple of new low-cost magic banners would be nice, but nothing game-breaking or have-to-take items. Put the Griffon back at 50.
Lower Archers to about 6 pts/model. Huntsmen at 8. And back to unit size 5-10 for Huntsmen.
Add a Witch Hunter hero. Master Engineer moves to a unit upgrade (for war machines) and one wound (and not BS 5), limit one per army or some such. Add Marshal of Engineers as a Hero choice, who provides the option for more Engineers. Engineers can reroll misfires for any artillery piece, not just cannons and mortars.
Just my thoughts...
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Okey here s my insane thoughts...
GotE - 0-1 greatswords core, giant chicken 50 points cheaper
TGM - 0-1 IC knights core
War altar +50 points
Statetroops 1 point cheaper, and just for great looks, option for heavy armor +2
master engineer becomes a warmachine upgrade and allows 1-2 mortars or cannons to be field into small batteries (counts as only one special choice). Must be deployed 3" apart and at the same time.
change the BRB to allow 2+ CR for ranks.
Add some kind of light cavalry hopefully by, fluff wise, let the empire conquer and burn Kislev to the ground! :icon_twisted: ::heretic:: :mrgreen:
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Has anyone thought of adding pikes, giving halberdiers unbreakability and heavy armor, and raising the engineers BS to 5?
Phil
Stop it PhillyT, we don't need you're stinking common sense here!
-Grutch
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Whoops! Sorry about that!
Phil
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- Our infantry boys are very cool. I just would like to have a few different types of officers for the army. You know, giving some types of abilities to our champions, captains or General.. Things like; for 30 pts as long as this 'ard arse sergeant is alive, his unit of spearmen can reroll panic checks. Or.. Like banner 10 points this sergeant's unit can reroll rally checks. This sergeant and his unit has been trained especially by sigmar priests and they are immune to fear while fighting undead, blah blah..
- Some Knight Captain hero would be nice, giving some type of ability to knights. That's lame, a priest leads knights better then a captain.
- Engineer with BS 5 is logical considering our captains have 5 BS. On the other hand, it is way too powerful to have a 5 BS guy with longrifle or a BS 5 Helblaster. I dont know, maybe reduce of points of an engineer would solve the problem. Or having them as upgrades for machines.
- Adding a bit for our detachments would be nice. I like to see them using parent unit's musician and banner(at least musician)
- Every army is having some type of an object unit buffing others around itself(Couldron, Shrine, Engine of Gods, Corpse Cart, etc.). Maybe some type of BSB carrying unit buffing others around would be nice. (Like a unit carrying a large flag giving imperial banner properties to units 12" or 18")
I can not see many changes I would like to see in Empire army list. Deamons, Vampires are very tough now, but well... They are still beatable, at least the ones in my gaming club.
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Okey here s my insane thoughts...
Add some kind of light cavalry hopefully by, fluff wise, let the empire conquer and burn Kislev to the ground! :icon_twisted: ::heretic:: :mrgreen:
Insane indeed......... :x
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For each General/Elector Count in the army, 1 unit of Greatswords to be core.
General can be upgraded to Elector Count (18" Leadership) +20pts. Only Elector Count can carry Runefang (75pts), but cannot ride a Griffon.
Halberd, Crossbow and Brace of Pistols options also.
For each GM in army, 1 unit of IC knights to be core.
For each High Priest (renamed Arch Lector) in the army, 1 unit of Flagellants to be core.
War Altar = 140pts, not 0-1
BSB to get normal equipment options
Captain to get Crossbow and Brace of Pistols option also.
Captain can be upgraded to Hunt Master, Witch Hunter or Seneschual (Do a search in the Imperial Office for my ideas on these)
Warrior Priest to be able to choose from various gods.
Warrior Priest to be able to be equipped with 'Talismans'
Engineer changes (also listed in the same thread as above in the Imperial Office) including equipment.
State Troop Options:
4pts, light armour, hand weapon. Champion upgrade gives better stats (+1 WS, BS, S, I, A). Command =20pts total. Must choose at least one, maximum of two from the following list:
Veterans: +1WS, +1I (1pt)
Armour: Shield or Heavy Armour (1pt)
Weapon: Halberd or Spear (1pt)
Missile Weapon: Handgun or Crossbow (if chosen, cannot take another option) (4pts)
State Troops can take any banner with a value up to 25pts.
Militia Options:
4pts, hand weapon. Unit can be ranked or skirmishers (but cannot change throughout the game. Skirmishers can only get champion upgrade). Must choose one from the following list:
Weapon: Extra Hand Weapon (1pt) or Great Weapon (2pts)
Missile Weapon: Pistol or Bow (4pts)
Huntsmen have Longbows, are 9pts each, and min unit size of 8. Can swap longbows for handguns at no additional cost.
Knightly Orders to use 6th ed WD traits system (or simpler version of)
Greatswords can take any banner up to 50pts.
Pistoliers may swap one pistol for a lance at no additional cost.
Helblaster back to 6th ed rules, 125pts
Flagellants 'Hatred' martyr rule re-write to avoid confusion. (9pts)
Steam tank to have proper rules (rather than poor adaption of steam point system, or alternatively should you roll over the steam point limit, the steam tank suffers 1 wound and -1 steam point to use, for another roll over the limit, suffers 2 wounds and -2 steam points to use, and so on). Can also attack in opponents turn.
Reintroduce the War Wagon. Not Experimental crew - 6 regular state troop crew with halberds and handguns. T5 charriot, 5 wounds, 3+AS vs shooting, 3+AS vs combat normal, 5+AS vs combat against monsters and bigger. (110pts) Mv7. Impact hits D6 S5.
Possibly add Kislev Winged Lancers /Gryphon Legion to the list?
Magic items across the board - some need to be dropped in points, most kept the same, and more banners.
Lots of minor changes, certainly don't break the list, and really only make it more interesting for Empire players. Plus a shiny new War Wagon / Altar kit for GW to sell.
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What the hell. Did you copy and paste that from another post? One from like 3 years ago the first time you wrote it?
:D
Phil
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1. Pistoliers get back Fulisade, 19pts.
What did the Fussilade rule even say? I asked GWD and they had no answer, saying they have never heard of this rule. I have seen it in the old rulebook, but never saw what it did.
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Essentially, when the pistoliers charged they had 2 attacks in close combat and S4. In addition to the horses, they were made a quite nasty flanking unit.
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You know what would fix all the problems in the next army book? A few pages in the back of the book with the lists for Tilea, Kislev, and the Cult of Ulric, with a disclaimer that they aren't tournament legal or very well balanced but you can use them for friendly games. Then you have your pikes, your lancers, and your tough close combat infantry without messing with the core Empire list. In fact since the lists are still kicking around the web why not just use them for friendly games and not worry about whether GW supports them?
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Based on GW's past form, I think we can expect a significant buff for Knights and GMs, as the seem to be the most logical candidate for new models at that point. If we're lucky, they might even look at our magic item selection for us. :roll:
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Based on GW's past form, anything is possible. It largely comes down to who is responsible for the new book. I have no idea what will actually happen, but generally the army books get better with each incarnation, so I'm not too fussed.
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I like my WS3, BS3 humans. Change swords, spears, halberds, and pikes to "State Troops" - WS3 BS3 guys, 4 pts each - with light armour and a hand weapon. Options for shield (1 pt), spear (1 pt), halberd (1 pt), or pike (4 pts). Each GotE allows you to upgrade one unit to "Veterans" at WS 4, I4, Ld 8 for +2 pts/model. Halberds with the "step over the fallen" rule (the front rank always fights, regardless of casualties); pikes fight in four ranks and count as a defended obstacle. Give all Empire State Troops the ability to gain up to +4 from ranks instead of +3, due to training and discipline, as well as detachments.
Keep Greatswords as are, but add Dismounted Knights as Core, in Full Plate with hand weapon and shield, 10 pts/model; option to swap shield for Greatsword for free. Dismounted Knights are NOT state troops and don't benefit from those rules; Greatswords are, but they are a Special choice. Dismounted Knights keep the option for Inner Circle for +2 pts/model (and become Special). Downgrade Knightly Orders' Inner Circle cost to 2 pts/model. Both Dismounted Knights and Greatswords gain 50 pt magic banner option, and all Knightly Preceptors (mounted and foot) gain option for 25 pts of magic items. Greatswords benefit from the General's leadership when rolling break tests (applied toward their Stubborn ability) if the General is in the unit.
Add Winged Lancers as a Rare choice, keeping their "Glorious Charge" rule, and make Gryphon Legion a 2 pt/model upgrade.
Remove the "Core Flagellants if a Warrior Priest is present" rule.
Add Demilancers as a Core choice. Human on horse in light armour with a lance and sword. Options for full command.
Give Free Companies option to purchase skirmishing (+1 pt/model) and light armour (+1 pt/model).
Some changes to the Steam Tank would be nice, but nothing terribly large. It seems to work pretty well right now, at a good balance between insanely-complicated-but-somewhat-realistic and still-works-in-game.
A couple of new low-cost magic banners would be nice, but nothing game-breaking or have-to-take items. Put the Griffon back at 50.
Lower Archers to about 6 pts/model. Huntsmen at 8. And back to unit size 5-10 for Huntsmen.
Add a Witch Hunter hero. Master Engineer moves to a unit upgrade (for war machines) and one wound (and not BS 5), limit one per army or some such. Add Marshal of Engineers as a Hero choice, who provides the option for more Engineers. Engineers can reroll misfires for any artillery piece, not just cannons and mortars.
Just my thoughts...
So far best ideas here IMHO :::cheers:::
As we already steered into not what would we want but what we expect to get, I'll unleash my pessimism:
- Stronger TGM, stronger knights - deathstar cavalry FTW!
- Nothing new with infantry (as handgunners and crossbowmen don't need anything to make good gunlines).
- STanks as mounts for engineers - more kits sold.
- Nothing new with artillery or magic items - what for, they are perfect ...
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Good, but I don't think that they would add lancers as a rare, there is no point to it.
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Indeed, not when we have core knights.
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I see the old wish list is back in full swing. There are a variety of comments I could make about some of the wishes, but I somehow doubt that they would really be noticed in the sea of replies, and I'm not going to make any wishes myself, as I think that wishes tend to be overused, and I would rather save mine for real life.
I will, however, simply say this:
Be careful what you wish for, as you might just get it.
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IBe careful what you wish for, as you might just get it.
In that case I wish for a million dollars :biggriin: And that Witch Hunter hero
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IBe careful what you wish for, as you might just get it.
In that case I wish for a million dollars :biggriin: And that Witch Hunter hero
I second that emotion :::cheers:::
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But in the carefull what you wish for thinking, you will end up with a stolen million dollars and the cops knocking on your door....
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But in the carefull what you wish for thinking, you will end up with a stolen million dollars and the cops knocking on your door....
You mean a witch hunter? :happy:
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Me? :ph34r:
Eh, how did you know my secret?
Sorry, but I got to arrest you for knowing stuff you should not know, Ownkrieg... Wait, skip that arrest and commit some act of legitimate Sigmarite vigilante justice! Burn him! ::heretic:: :icon_mrgreen:
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The pistoliers were so much better then, we need that rule back. :dry:
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The pistoliers were so much better then, we need that rule back. :dry:
Why?
Pistoliers are right now a choice. Some people use them, some don't and many use them sometimes. This is IMHO perfect for a special unit.
Other units needs the attention more: Halberds, perhaps free company, engineer, mortar, archers/huntsmen.
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Yeah, I never really liked the fact that pistoliers hit harder on the charge than the knights the were training to become. And, going back to CC-focussed pistoliers means we lose a unit of missle cav to gain another unit of combat cav. I'd prefer to have more options,
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The introduction of a difference in handguns, normal muskets for the state trooper regiments with a platoon fire rule and rifles for the archer/huntsmen. How sweet would Jaegers with long rifles look?
I imagine them something like this:
(http://www.sleepytimestore.com/skin1/images/thumbs/t_917.jpg)
Or perhaps more like those
(http://www.riflemanharris.co.uk/photos/harris/McGann%20era%20pack%20shot-%20Dimerdji%2092.jpg)
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The american frontier style doesn't fit well with the empire imo :wink:
Other units needs the attention more: Halberds, perhaps free company, engineer, mortar, archers/huntsmen.
So because those units needs the attention more, other units shouldn't get any at all?
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I couldn't be bothered to slog through 4 pages of this again, but here's my wish list:
Remove the line of fluff that says Halberdiers are the mainstay unit in the Empire's forces. That will fix the Halberdier problem.
Add a line that says the Emperor banned the use of pikes shortly after their introduction because he didn't approve of bringing fish to war, as it attracts bears. This will fix the pike issue.
Remove the line of fluff that says there are only 8 Steam Tanks and 2 Arch Lectors. This will fix those two complaints.
Remove the Engineer, he's failed for 2 editions.
Add a line of fluff that says that some Empire Soldiers don't wear shoes.
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Halberdiers are the badasses of the empire :-D
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I couldn't be bothered to slog through 4 pages of this again, but here's my wish list:
Remove the line of fluff that says Halberdiers are the mainstay unit in the Empire's forces. That will fix the Halberdier problem.
Add a line that says the Emperor banned the use of pikes shortly after their introduction because he didn't approve of bringing fish to war, as it attracts bears. This will fix the pike issue.
Remove the line of fluff that says there are only 8 Steam Tanks and 2 Arch Lectors. This will fix those two complaints.
Remove the Engineer, he's failed for 2 editions.
Add a line of fluff that says that some Empire Soldiers don't wear shoes.
:eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
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I couldn't be bothered to slog through 4 pages of this again, but here's my wish list:
Remove the line of fluff that says Halberdiers are the mainstay unit in the Empire's forces. That will fix the Halberdier problem.
Add a line that says the Emperor banned the use of pikes shortly after their introduction because he didn't approve of bringing fish to war, as it attracts bears. This will fix the pike issue.
Remove the line of fluff that says there are only 8 Steam Tanks and 2 Arch Lectors. This will fix those two complaints.
Remove the Engineer, he's failed for 2 editions.
Add a line of fluff that says that some Empire Soldiers don't wear shoes.
And suddenly Empire armylist is balanced against all the cheap-as-chips infantry, hard-as-nails elite infantry, steamroller cavalry, overpowered magic 7th edition armies :icon_rolleyes:
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No, adding a basic light cav unit would make it closer though... :wink:
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I would like to see rules to better protect the artillery. If Empire Artillery is attacked it's a no brainer they die. I would like it if the artillery men would be smart and could form up behind their guns making the guns like defending behind an obstacle. Give the artillery men some light armor and a brace of pistoles so they can hold and fire and have a slightly better chance at survival.
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Eh, Empire Artillery is meant to be defended by other units; they're merely human, after all, and don't have time to train to use their weapons AND train to defend themselves. Effectively, anyway. Right now they're cheap (relatively) and potent - they do their job and let others do theirs.
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I couldn't be bothered to slog through 4 pages of this again, but here's my wish list:
Remove the line of fluff that says Halberdiers are the mainstay unit in the Empire's forces. That will fix the Halberdier problem.
Add a line that says the Emperor banned the use of pikes shortly after their introduction because he didn't approve of bringing fish to war, as it attracts bears. This will fix the pike issue.
Remove the line of fluff that says there are only 8 Steam Tanks and 2 Arch Lectors. This will fix those two complaints.
Remove the Engineer, he's failed for 2 editions.
Add a line of fluff that says that some Empire Soldiers don't wear shoes.
And suddenly Empire armylist is balanced against all the cheap-as-chips infantry, hard-as-nails elite infantry, steamroller cavalry, overpowered magic 7th edition armies :icon_rolleyes:
This is a problem with other books, and the over all rule set. Our book is great!
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A personal suggestion(which I already commented on the Cavalry tactics thread):
Change Knightly Order basic knights into: same stats, lance, single pistol, plate armour( bulletproof cuirass, if you want). Something along the lines of 19 points. Now we have cheaper, faster and better on their role 'Nilla knights, trading resilience for versatility.
Knightly Order become the current IC knights. The special choice reflects their rarity( I know in Empire fluff Knightly orders are all around the place, but I find quite unreallistic that full armies can be made of full white harness, créme-de-la-créme gendarmes equivalents.
25 points, 1+ save, strength 4. One or two more magic banners for them. Being special choices, maybe even some kind of "Order specific upgrade" could work. Nothing overly complicated, as "Reroll rallying tests", or "-1 to hit when being stand and shooted".
I think with this changes basic Knights, IC knights and Pistoliers would be different enough to not overlap.
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See I simplify that, make barding optional, give the champion the option for wielding a brace of pistols and the fullisade rule.... done.
They are still resiliant, and they hit hard, but they would be faster and cheaper... justg my thoughts on what you sugested.
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What, have we moved from even pretending to make things possible to the "Choose your Own Adventure" phase?
Phil
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Though I want the fusilade rule back, pistoliers are already some of the best light cavalry units in the game so its obmission is understandable.
WS 5 for Greatswords with the ability to take a 25 point magic banner.
That's actually it. I think the rest of the army is fine.
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What about knights armed with blunderbusses riding on two wheeled Steam Tanks known as "Steamcycles."
And make the fast cavalry.
Awesome.
Phil
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What, have we moved from even pretending to make things possible to the "Choose your Own Adventure" phase?
Phil
Dude, I loved those books when I was younger (o.k I still do)
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Some were awful! There was one about becoming a musical band. My favorite was the race across Africa.
But all of that is a story for another thread...
In the Back Table.
Phil
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I like some of the ideas presented. Here are a couple I'd like to see:
1. Make AL prayers bound lvl 5 (like the Theoginist). I think it is bad that his prayers are at the same level as a WP.
2. Make volley guns have the ability to stand and shoot. On a misfire, the army book only mentions them getting "jammed," not reloaded like a cannon. They are using fed ammo and should have the ability to swivel towards the chargers and let go with a volley.
3. More magic banner selection and more availability options on units able to use them.
4. Bring back the war wagon. I've had a lot of fun with this unit and would like to see it return in some form. I would even accept losing the steam tank option to get back the war wagon (gonna take heat on this one). Steam tanks just seem a little 40K to me.
5. Reduce Runefang cost to 75.
6. Change the cost of the war alter to 150 and allow the light spell cast from the alter to be at the cooresponding bound power as the spell cost.
7. This last one is just a wish, a pipedream. But I always thought it would be cool to offer a magic banner that gives +1 strength to a unit (including the horses!!). Put this on a unit of knights. It doesnt stack with the +2 lance strength. But on the second round of combat you would be hitting at ST 4 or 5(ic knights). Horses hitting at strength 4 would be beautiful>;p
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What, have we moved from even pretending to make things possible to the "Choose your Own Adventure" phase?
Phil
I think you draw too much in your "respectability" to make such condescending comments about others' oppinions, Philly.
This began as a wishlist and it keeps being a wishlist. Maybe I'm wrong taking it personally, but I don't think I said anything significantly more outrageous than the people before me. If you don't like it, it's fine. But I don't like you downgrading my ideas to " adventures".
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I think you draw too much in your "respectability" to make such condescending comments about others' oppinions, Philly.
On the contrary, he is gaining respect.
Much of the wishing in this thread is ridiculous especially since a lot of former rules are not even supported by the main rules/design.
But honestly, I too would love fast cav steam horsemen. :::cheers:::
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I think you draw too much in your "respectability" to make such condescending comments about others' oppinions, Philly.
Not targeted specifically at you. I found your conquisator heavy cavalry interesting, but 100% out of place in the context of the army and absoultly no chance of ever occuring.
Now back to the point, what about a giant iron giant, packed with gear work, bristling with cannons, handguns, gattling cannon, mortars, and with a pair of helstorms on the shoulders. Perhaps through the use of eldritch magic they could use it to keep ancient heroes alive, like former Grand Masters!
That would be really neat!
Phil
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I've been here for but a few moments and my sarcasm meter is already broken.
Goddamn it.
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I think you draw too much in your "respectability" to make such condescending comments about others' oppinions, Philly.
There's no respect on the internet. Everyone is an idiot. :icon_biggrin:
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Now back to the point, what about a giant iron giant
He . . . hehe . . . hehehe . . . hehehehe . . . hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
Philly funny . . .
:-D :lol: :icon_biggrin: :-) :icon_lol:
P.S hehehehe
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Probelm is, the chances are some one at GW is reading this and even now thinking "thats brilliant, and we will sell loads"
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I'm lost. Are we all now mocking each others ideas and being sarcastic about sarcasm? If so...........none of you smell. :biggriin:
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I think you draw too much in your "respectability" to make such condescending comments about others' oppinions, Philly.
Not targeted specifically at you. I found your conquisator heavy cavalry interesting, but 100% out of place in the context of the army and absoultly no chance of ever occuring.
Now back to the point, what about a giant iron giant, packed with gear work, bristling with cannons, handguns, gattling cannon, mortars, and with a pair of helstorms on the shoulders. Perhaps through the use of eldritch magic they could use it to keep ancient heroes alive, like former Grand Masters!
That would be really neat!
Phil
Don't forget the dwarf-sponsored gyrocopter blades for a 20" flying move.
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Mecha Giant Smash!
Best idea, what if he can convert into a Windmill when not in Battle Mode. His giant rotocopter blades would power flour mills or something.
I think we are on to something here...
Phil
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I've been here for but a few moments and my sarcasm meter is already broken.
Goddamn it.
Yeah, you'll need a warhammer-empire sarcasm meter special edition :wink:
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Now back to the point, what about a giant iron giant, packed with gear work, bristling with cannons, handguns, gattling cannon, mortars, and with a pair of helstorms on the shoulders. Perhaps through the use of eldritch magic they could use it to keep ancient heroes alive, like former Grand Masters!
Sssh....! Don't give GW any more hair brained ideas. They did create Champion the Robo Wonder horse after all, so I'm sure they could justify creating a pseudo Imperator Titan for the Empire :icon_wink:.
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I'd like to see massive amendments to the game itself, and in my view The Empire is the army most dependent on this for positive definition, due to being the "basic" or "all-around" force.
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I've been here for but a few moments and my sarcasm meter is already broken.
Goddamn it.
My sarcasm-o-meter just exploded. I'm out.
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Although the Imperial Titan would make a nice conversion contest...
Never mind, Steveb probably has five of them in a box in his bedroom....
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Mecha Giant Smash!
Best idea, what if he can convert into a Windmill when not in Battle Mode. His giant rotocopter blades would power flour mills or something.
I think we are on to something here...
Phil
This 'verwandeln' technology must be a gift from the dwarves though, presented to KF to save the the old world from the evil Deceptichaos. As Sigmar himself said, "there's more to the Dwarves than meets the eye".
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Now back to the point, what about a giant iron giant
He . . . hehe . . . hehehe . . . hehehehe . . . hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
Haha when you type out "hehehehehehe" it sounds more like you giggling uncontrollably rather than laughing. :laugh:
If I could have one wish it would be for new knight models.
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Now back to the point, what about a giant iron giant
He . . . hehe . . . hehehe . . . hehehehe . . . hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
Haha when you type out "hehehehehehe" it sounds more like you giggling uncontrollably rather than laughing. :laugh:
Then it's accurate! :-D
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What about giving halberdiers combined handgun/halberds? They can stand and shoot then reap the CR of their mighty halberds!
Has anyone mentioned upping Engineers BS to 5?
Phil
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I think halbreds that fight in two ranks would be good!
the first rank uses them as spears and second chops down on guys the spears are holding back.
maybe the first rank doesn't get a strength bonus(unless charged) and the second rank does because they are swinging their weapon
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See that would nerf the spears though, I think the armor piercing rule works for them as each of our regiments needs to fufill a different purpose. If your halberds atacked in 2 ranks, where do your spearmen go? Unless spears are upgraded to pikes, then you might be on to something.
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honestly I think giving halberdiers the option to either (they would have to playtest these rules obviously... not that they do)
1) Give halberdiers armour piercing.
pros: Halberds are better at armour penetration but are not as good as GW at wounding.
Cons: Crappy AS means they will die in droves.
2) Give them every other rank to fight in
Pros: makes them effective since they would get extra attacks. Spearmen would get more attacks and a higher AS
Cons: Still no AS,
3) make them more expensive turn them into the mainstay heavy infantry by giving them full plate make them 7 or 8 points a piece and dont give them the option for a shield.
Pros: Give them a higher AS to make them a viable unit. They would have a lower ini and ws then swordsmen and fewer attacks then spearmen still giving them a purpose as units. Not having a stubborn leadership of 8 would make the greatswords still desirable as a special choice, but not the only infantry unit we have that is worth a Sh**t.
Cons: cant really think of any for this one since all the infantry would have different values on the battlefield. Only major con I have is that I would have to recollect all of my infantry.
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Rather than Inner Circle Knights (with +1 strength)I would have Knighty Orders as a special slot. They would use the Bretonnian Lance Formation if joined by a captain of the empire or grand master.
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give pistoliers fullisade back.
make the griffon standard 50 pts again
Make huntsmen into halflings and make the min unit 5
Make Greatswords 0-1 core choice that don't count toward your minimum core used; give them pistols at +1 point per model. (That will let them take the charge a little bit better)
Let standard militia skirmish as an option with point upgrade options for
scouting (make 'state troop' archers real archers with ranks, drop their points to 5)
throwing knives
long bows
***new special rule***
well disciplined All Units with the rule "State Troops" get an additional +1 (for a total of 2) to rally if they contain a musician and may rally even if under half strength.
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I think we need a rule that provides us with a Steve McQueen special character. It just feels right.
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What about Demons of Sigmar. They could be all rippling with muscles, covered in sweat. Their long hair flowing behind them as they wield their enormous clubs...
Phil
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Definately longbows for huntsmen, since yer payin' 10 points (same as GREATSWORD) for an unarmoured, endangered trooper who doesn't get ranks.
The halberds, are they packed with gunpowder? I say S4 is enough, it relieves the standard orc boy of his armour.
Many of these auto rally bonuses, there are magic items for that like the Silver Horn (I think that's what it's called) in our list that's a bound spell. I don't think there's ever an auto-rally (that can't be dispelled ie. bound spell) ever. Empire would be the first.
Also, the Engineer needs BS5. The moment I saw it was 4, I couldn't believe it.
Also, a more forgiving Pigeon Bomb chart.
Try not to blow anything outta proportion. No offense to anyone by what I've said.
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The empire is portrayed as a disciplined army in all the background of the army books and fiction but the reality of how they play in the game is another story! Flee from this fail to charge that it's enough to make you want to trade your army in for some golf clubs :Ohmy:. true the detachment rules are cool yet i think there could be more to be done to reflect the background and how the army plays. what i would like to see is the type of general choice impacts on how the army can be played differntly.
Im thinking along these lines
For example the empire general
same options excepts lets you redeploy ONE unit (except war machines) before the game begins if they pass a Ld test.
Grand Master
May have one unit of knights be held in reserve and come on as a flank attack (follows same rules as flanking units)
Arch lector
leave the same
wizard lord
leave the same
Engineer
Entrench war machines or be able to make d3 defence obstacles
I think something along these lines would be a benefit the army and give the empire players more tactical choices instead of just improving on units and magical items.
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For example the empire general
same options excepts lets you redeploy ONE unit (except war machines) before the game begins if they pass a Ld test.
I really like this rule. It would be fluffy, useful, balanced and a great way to differenciate the General from the other Lord choices.
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I agree with some of the earlier posts. I think pike needs added to the list, if not a core unit then a special one. They could be more expensive than spear so that players would have a choice between the two. I would also like to see a return of halflings to the army as well as the Winged Lancers and other Kiselev units. The foot Reiksgard or other dismounted knights are a good idea as well.
One idea that I haven't seen proposed already is the option of taking additional cannon crew members for a few extra points. They would not do anything extra for the gun but could split into a second team to take over a gun that had lost its crew.
I don't use steamtanks and pay them little attention but it seems to me that each new model that comes out, it gets an extra gun. I'm waiting to see the next version with an anti aircraft gun on top or a rearward facing gun to stop charges from behind. Maybe smoke dischargers on the sides. Or maybe a flamethower next to the main gun. Or... :eusa_sick:
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What about really small state troops. They could be degenerate hillbillies. We could call them hobbits or something.
That would get me playing!
Phil
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What about Demons of Sigmar. They could be all rippling with muscles, covered in sweat. Their long hair flowing behind them as they wield their enormous clubs...
Phil
Another of philly's homoerotic fantasies... :wink:
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I really like this rule. It would be fluffy, useful, balanced and a great way to differenciate the General from the other Lord choices.
I'd make it a general only magic item, but yeah, this is something that'd be good.
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Well, it is just Phillys way of saying "Empire is perfect and should not change an inch! There is nothing needing improvement and nothing should be added or I will get a traumatic breakdown!" :icon_razz:
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What if they added magically enhanced trees? They could be skirmishers, get a ward save (they are magical silly!) and cause fear! Would work really well since Empire is lacking in skirmishing units.
Phil
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What if they added magically enhanced trees? They could be skirmishers, get a ward save (they are magical silly!) and cause fear! Would work really well since Empire is lacking in skirmishing units.
Phil
Naah... We'll just wait till they re-introduce 5th ed. allies rules.
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A novel idea would be to wedge all of the good guys in one book and all the bad guys in another! It will be so retro!
Phil
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How about a hero that slays with his rapier wit and greathammer sarcasm?
:icon_biggrin:
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8th edition empire needs Apache gunships.
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A novel idea would be to wedge all of the good guys in one book and all the bad guys in another! It will be so retro!
Phil
I would like this. :::cheers:::
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Well, if you could only use the Good vs. Evil lists against each other, it could be good fun!
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A novel idea would be to wedge all of the good guys in one book and all the bad guys in another! It will be so retro!
Phil
I love this idea, I made reference to an idea like this in some other thread somewhere.
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I was being funny, wasn't that the way it was in 3rd edition?
Phil
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I was being funny, wasn't that the way it was in 3rd edition?
Phil
No, they were all in the same book.
I really, really like a lot of the later developments the armies went through, empire detachments for one, but I also love the much greater flexibility of the older systems
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I was being funny, wasn't that the way it was in 3rd edition?
Phil
Not to replace the actual army books , but rather something like the LOTR book that lets you mix match and allie your "good" and "evil" armnies.(but not together)
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What about Demons of Sigmar. They could be all rippling with muscles, covered in sweat. Their long hair flowing behind them as they wield their enormous clubs...
Phil
How about a hero that slays with his rapier wit and greathammer sarcasm?
:icon_biggrin:
this stuff is fantastic, but how bout sigmar daemons with the sweat and the hair and stuff that slay the enemy with rapier wit! :eusa_clap: they could use quotes from Rambo and the Terminator, although those would be more like giant battle axe wit than rapier wit :icon_rolleyes:
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New unit: Warhammermen.
Profile: Standard human.
Equipment: Warhammer
Points: 4
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New unit: Warhammermen.
Profile: Standard human.
Equipment: Warhammer
Points: 4
See, this is so simple. Send it off to GW.
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New unit: Warhammermen.
Profile: Standard human.
Equipment: Warhammer
Points: 4
See, this is so simple. Send it off to GW.
They will screw it up. :::cheers:::
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WISHLIST:
Heroes: 2x Engineers per Hero slot, Engineering Items
Core: Spearmen with ASF on the first round of combat when holding against charge. Witch Hunter as a unit upgrade and works somewhat the same way as assassins.
Special: War Wagons, charriots are just cool. 2x Mortars per Special slot, battery rule that will keep them 3" from each other, little like detachment from parent unit...
Bw
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To make Empire a bit more competitive and more diverse I thought about the possibility of devotions to gods (like chaos).
They can only be taken by state troops, if a hero joins the unit he is not effected by this devotion e.g.
Devotion to Sigmar: +1 strength 30pts
Devotion to Ulric: +1 leadership 25pts
Devotion to Morr: Immune to Fear 25pts
Devotion to Shallya: 6+ Regeneration 20pts
What do you think? It may solve the Halberdier problem by having S5
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Oh, I'll offer my 10 cents given the current armybook trends I'll try to predict whats going to happen to Empire...
Lord / Heroes:
Special characters get cheaper. And more SCs too. ::heretic::
Normal characters get a point hit (get more expensive and hence less practical so you'd be "forced" to use Special characters.
Magic items get cheaper. Some favorite Ward save items will get removed. Imperial Banner might just grant stubborn to all units within 12" and be 125 points.
Core::
Archers become 5 - 6 points. Get Ld 6 and WS 2
Crossbowmen follow Archers.
Knightly Orders: Preceptor gets cheaper. Knights get bumped up to 25 points.
Special:
Pistoliers become Core. ::heretic::
Gryphon Legion get another attack and bump to 30 points. But special rule only lets them have 1 attack if they use the Lance on the charge.
Outriders get to move and shoot for one turn. Next turn they cannot shoot but can move or charge.
Greatswords get 2 attacks but bumped to 14 - 15 points.
Rare:
Helstorm Rocket Battery gets to fire large template.
Helblaster Volley Gun gets auto hit shots.
Army Special rules:
Detachment rules to change to something even better... like detachments get +1 attack on the charge against an enemy unit that is in combat with a parent unit.
Overall, the flexibility of Empire prevents it from being totally redundant after the release of the latest books. It only needs a few tweaks to bring it up to par (although Empire will never be on par to lets say, Daemons) to this Edition, or the next.
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Rare:
Helstorm Rocket Battery gets to fire large template.
It already fires a large template
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As our state troops are supposed to be drilling all the time, would it be a good idea to include more specific tactics apart from the detachment rule?
For instance:
Defensive square: for an extra 25 (?) pts a unit of state troops gains the ability to form a defensive square.
In the movement phase, this unit can reform into a square. This is indicated by turning the flank and rear soldiers to face outward.
Each side of the unit now gains the same bonuses, as if it were in front (e.g. armour bonus for hand weapon with shield).
Each side has now the rank bonus the unit would normally have (or perhaps -1?).
Flank and rear attacks by the enemy do not deny the rank bonus of the unit, and do not provide any flank/rear attack bonus.
In a square formation, the unit can never move, attack or pursue, even if other rules would normally require them to do so. However, the unit does flee as normal.
Detachments can conduct counter charges and provide support fire, as normal.
In the movement phase, the square can reform to its normal disposition at half movement cost.
What are your thoughts? Useful or crap? Balanced? Too complicated?
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Reading again my post, I should add: the unit cannot flee as a reaction to attack. However, after failing a break test, it flees as normal.
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Well, my Free Company are mostly Halflings and about half of my artillery crew are Dwarves.
Which looks really cool, imho, and makes a ton of sense if you go by the fluff, what with the Empire being this great big federation and all, and that's kind of the way it was right up until 5th edition.
My Bretonnian army has a few Wood Elf minis riding with them - I don't use any special rules for them, I just treat them as Knights - which also makes sense, since the Brets and Woodies are supposed to be pretty friendly as per fluff and the forest of Loren technically lies within the borders of Bretonnia.
In one of my favorite fantasy battle games, Slaughterloo, you are fairly free to mix races without violating any of the fluff/background, so an army that combines Orcs (British), Goblins (Portuguese), Dark Elves (Spanish) and Dwarves (Prussians) is entirely within the rules as well as background.
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I've been thinking a bit about some kind of a list how I personally would update the Empire. On top of that I would love to re write some of the other army books, or at least tweak them out a bit. I just have this tendency of tweaking and doing my own versions of stuff, you know? :-)
Anyways, I won't go into details just now, but just start copy/pasting from my notes and writing stuff. I'll try to cover everything I've been thinking about.
- - -
Below are listed just the changes that would be done to the things mentioned. Anything not mentioned would stay the same.
GotE
1. Heirloom: A unit of state troops may choose a magic banner worth 60pts.
2. May choose one of the following:
Military leader - 15pts
+1 Ws and I
Political leader - 30pts
+1 special slot, +1 to minimium core units
Inspirational leader - 25pts
If he is the General units within 15" may use his Ld. If he's not the general, units within 6" may use his Ld.
3. Griffon costs only 140 points.
Grandmaster
1. Organisation: For each Grandmaster you must have a unit of Inner Circle Knights. For each Grandmaster one unit of Inner Circle Knights is core instead of special.
Battle Standard Bearer
1. Can use all normal equipment as other armies' BSBs can.
The War Altar
1. Cost increase to 125.
2. Change Unbreakable to Stubborn and Immune to Psychology.
Engineer
1. Increase Bs to 5.
2. Allow magic items up to 25 points.
3. At the start of the battle you may choose a unit of pistoliers, handgunners or outriders. The first time that unit shoots the Strength of their weapons is increased by 1.
War Machines
1. The Helblaster does not suffer -1 to hit modifier for shooting skirmishers.
2. The Mortar has -2 armour save modifier.
Handgunners and Crossbowmen
1. Have light armour.
Huntsmen
1. Have longbows.
2. Cost 9 points.
State Troops
Greatswords, Halberdiers, Spearmen, Swordsmen, Handgunners and Crossbowmen are State Troops.
Greatsword - 11pts
Ws4 Bs3 S4 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8
Full plate mail, Greatswords
Stubborn
Swordsmen - 5pts
Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld7
Light armour, Shield
Spearmen - 5pts
Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7
Light armour, Spear
-May have shields for 1pts/model
Halberdiers - 5pts
Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7
Heavy armour, Halberd
Handgunner/Crossbowman - 8pts
Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7
Light armour, handgun/crossbow
1. Up to half of State Troop units in your army (round up) (detachments do not count) may be upgraded to Veterans for +1 points per model. Veterans have +1 Ws or Bs.
Magic Items:
Runefang - 75pts
same
Sword of Justice
No longer allows re-rolls to spells.
Wyrmslayer sword
Now ignores all scaly skin saves, not only those of large targets.
Gilded armour - 35pts
Enemies allocating attacks against the wearer now have to pass a single S test if they want to attack at all.
Helm of Skaven Slaying - 15pts
same
Seal of Destruction - 35pts
Now works on 3+.
The Silver Horn - 30pts
same
Orb of Thunder
Now adds +1 to amount of hits made by Uranor's Thunderbolt and Forked Lightning spells while active.
Banner of Demonslaying
The unit causes fear.
Banner of Duty
Now works even while fleeing.
- - -
That's basically it in all simplicity. :-) Of course there would be some space for a couple of new magic items, and a few things I wrote down are minor things or something that I kind of came up with while writing. For example the engineer dilemma. And I still don't know if the Helblaster crew should have Bs4 or not. It's not bad as it is, but... You know.
And, I don't know if the veteran rule should be restricted only to half of the units, but to all. But then the BS bonus should be either removed or further restricted.
Any thoughts? I mean, I find that a fairly simple and effective update. But, at the same time I would love to tweak the other armies too, and some a lot. Blodoy ward saves... I'd almost make them all work only against mundane attacks. Honestly.
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We should get, like, y'know, freakin' huge steam titans.
Because, like, that's what GW will come up with at this rate, with what they're smokin'.
Some goooood shit right there.
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And Space Mar... I mean "Imperial Guard".
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We should get, like, y'know, freakin' huge steam titans.
Because, like, that's what GW will come up with at this rate, with what they're smokin'.
Some goooood shit right there.
Maybe they'll start selling it in GW stores as hobby material. I mean, you've got a point.
Whatever they're using, I'd really like to try it out.
Or some other game than Warhammer... Either solution might make me smile again when thinking about "hobby gaming".
The two above posts, in my opinion, sum the general attitude towards GW's new publishments all around the world... -_-; But I'm still, still hoping for the better. Or I'll gather together the people from around these parts and we'll rewrite the books in a Ravening Hordes manner and use those with 7th ed rules.
If they fuck up the new beastmen book I'll go kill a bunny. Or bomb Nottingham.
But um, any thoughts on the subject?
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On bombing Nottingham ?
That would be quite easy to do.
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On bombing Nottingham ?
That would be quite easy to do.
And, in fact, little would be lost...
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I mean, gun crime and hobby retardedness would drop a significant amount.
Especially if you bomb during the GT season.
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Bloody ward saves... I'd almost make them all work only against mundane attacks. Honestly.
Agree. Magical attacks should negate ward saves.
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Something should be done about halberdiers. Make them come standard with HA, or boost their I and weaponskill, or something.
Helblaster needs to get some of its 6th ed oomph back. Why do you roll the artillery dice to see how many hits you get, then roll to see if those hits actually hit? One of these steps should be removed.
Engineers: Oh goodness, engineers need so much work it isn't funny. I would never consider taking an engineer. Maybe if they were much cheaper and could reroll for Hell blaster volley guns and the rocket batteries, while still shooting/using equipment. The Robo horse needs to die a quiet death. I don't mind pigeon bombs.
Generals of the empire need to let you take a unit of greatswords as core. We have far too many special choices already.
Give us back halflings! Maybe rare halfling skirmishers? Halfling hotpot?
We need some banners that don't suck.
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Some will argue this point, but in my approximately 10 years or so of Warhammer experience, WS is by far the most important stat (aside from 'special rules', of course...).
What makes Halberdiers 'suck' is WS 3.
Not because this is a 'broken' rule, but because in a real life (....) game of Warhammer, most of your opponents will be fielding top heavy über-armies in which NO ONE - with the possible exception of the odd Goblin or Skeleton they had no choice but fielding in order to satisfy the bare minimum requirements of 'core troops'.....- will be anywhere under WS 4 or better.
With toughness/armor to match.
Which makes halberds useless.
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It already fires a large template
Opps sorry! How about multiple small templates? :D
Some will argue this point, but in my approximately 10 years or so of Warhammer experience, WS is by far the most important stat (aside from 'special rules', of course...).
What makes Halberdiers 'suck' is WS 3.
Not because this is a 'broken' rule, but because in a real life (....) game of Warhammer, most of your opponents will be fielding top heavy über-armies in which NO ONE - with the possible exception of the odd Goblin or Skeleton they had no choice but fielding in order to satisfy the bare minimum requirements of 'core troops'.....- will be anywhere under WS 4 or better.
With toughness/armor to match.
Which makes halberds useless.
Precisely why Swordsmen need to be WS 4.
Halberds do slightly better as detachments / counter-charge unit but has limited uses.
I'd say leave it as it is as every army book has its "sub-par" units.
If anybody has problems with Halberds units then don't use them! You can't have everything! And tbh, Empire players have a lot of options to get around problems like that.
I would think the biggest (and its the elephant in the room that is staring at us in the face) is Goldswords.
Possible solutions:
1. +1 Toughness to base stats (but they have full plate already)
2. +1 Attack to base stats (the usual step for special infantry)
3. Skirmish (will cause new problems)
4. +1 WS when charging.
5. Able to take detachments
6. Becomes core if X hero / lord choice is taken
I think the additional issues with the Goldswords is that they are a special choice and that the most important units for Empire (Pistoleers, Cannons and Inner Circle Knights) are special choices already this drives Goldwords down the pecking order.
Statistically, I think they are fine for a human army. Issue here is more of an army design flaw then a unit design flaw.
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Lol. Uh, greatswordsmen can take detachments. . .
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Ok guys, here is a re-write of the Empire army book and some changes I made to the list of characters, core, special and rare.
Hopefully you guys enjoy it.
Some good ideas in there, especially with the changing magic item rules and such.
I have been researching different weapon and combined arms tactics from the middle period (medieval) in our history and found some interesting things about pikemen and infantry developments as a whole.
I will try and transfer them here for you.
Core:
All infantry command options are: musician+4, standard+8. Sergeant/Duellist/marksman +12
Sergeants of Spearmen and Halberdiers are equipped with full plate armour, shields a hand weapon, spear/halberd and pistol.
Duellists of swordsmen regiments are equipped with full plate armour, shields a hand weapon and pistol.
Marksmen of Handgunners are equipped with a brace of pistols, a handgun and light armour.
Marksmen of Crossbowmen are equipped with a brace of pistols, a crossbow and light armour.
Pikemen sergeants are equipped with a Pike, hand weapon, full plate armour and a pistol.
Halberdiers 4pts, light armour, hand weapon, halberd. State troops, stats; same
May be equipped with heavy armour for +2pts.
Sergeants may exchange their halberd for a great weapon+3pts, an extra hand weapon+2pts.
Swordsmen 5pts, Light armour, shield, hand weapon. State troops, stats; same.
Duellists may exchange their hand weapons for a great weapon+3pts, or an extra hand weapon+2pts.
Spearmen 4pts, light armour, shield, hand weapon. State troops, stats; same
Sergeants may exchange their spears for a great weapon+3pts, an extra hand weapon+2pts.
Handgunners 7pts, State troops
May take light armour+1pt or heavy armour+3pts
Champions may take a repeater handgun +10, or a Hochland +15 instead of his handgun.
Crossbowmen 7pts, light armour, crossbow. State troops
May take pavise+3pts (+2 AS vs. shooting, cannot be used in combat)
Pikemen 8pts same stats as a halberdier, Pikemen are NOT state troops.
Pike, light armour. May be equipped with heavy armor+2pts
Pikemen sergeants may exchange their pikes for; a great weapon+3pts, an extra hand weapon+2pts.
Fight in four ranks, even when charging (this represents a steady quick march into the enemy with pikes lowered).
ASF against all enemies CHARGING the FRONT only, regardless of magic abilities, special rules, or anything else that enables a model to strike first(no one, and I mean NO one can hit a forest of pikemen first, no matter how quick you are).
+1S on the turn any enemy infantry with movement six or less charges the front, +2S if any cavalry, monster, large target, chariot or any model which moves seven inches or more on its profile(including 2d6 and 3d6 moves).
(The above rules represent the lovely force we call momentum, you charge a hedge of pikemen who are braced, you will take casualties regardless of who you are.)
I included the Pikemen with the above rules for stopping cavalry and infantry effectively, as this is what they were proven to do when utilised by the Swiss, they weren't purely defensive infantry, they just work better when defending.
Archers, 5pts, bow.
May skirmish+1pt, may take light armour+1
May be upgraded to huntsmen+2pts, bs4, may replace bow with longbow+1pt minimum unit size, 5+(huntsmen only)
Knights 20pts each. Full plate, lance or great weapon, warhorse. shield. Command as normal
may take barding +2pts may upgrade to inner circle+5pts +1S and +1WS
Lancers 15pts each. Ws4 bs3 s3 t3 w1 i4 a1 ld7. Command: musician +7, standard +12, champion (suitable name?) +12(the champion has +1 A).
Warhorse, lance, light armour, hand weapon.
May take, heavy armour+2 shield+1, barding+1
Fast Cavalry (if a shield or barding is taken then Lancers no longer count as fast cavalry).
Militia/Free company 4pts, hand weapon, extra hand weapon.
may take light armour+1, may skirmish+1, may replace extra hand weapon with pistols+4.
Special:
Greatswordsmen, 10pts, full plate armour, Greatsword, hand weapon. State troops
m4 ws4 bs3 s4 t3 w1 i3 a1 ld8, stubborn.
May take a magical standard up to 50pts.
Pistoliers same as book but. . .
The pistoliers train daily to utilise their pistols, either in close shooting harassment or combat.
Pistoliers, if in combat will lay about themselves with their pistols. The pistoliers brace of pistols counts two hand weapons in the close combat phase, even from horseback (So essentially each pistolier will have two, ws3 s3 attacks each turn.).
Outriders; same as book.
Great cannons and mortars.
These are the same points costs as the book, a Great Cannon and/or a Mortar may take an engineer as a unit upgrade for 30pts; Engineer m4 ws3 bs4 s3 t3 w1 i3 a1 ld7. Same as book but non hero choice.
He is equipped with light armour, and a belt of tinkering tools (hand weapon).
Master of Ballistics-Great Cannons/Mortars; extra crewman.
He may take a Hochland long rifle +15, a repeater handgun +10, a brace of pistols +5, a repeater pistol and pistol +10, a grenade launching blunderbuss +10 and/or pigeon bombs +25(all same as book)
Master of Ballistics-Great Cannons/Mortars; This special ability allows the Engineer to reroll the artillery dice once per turn. This can stop a misfire.
If a engineer is taken as an upgrade for an Empire Great Cannon and/or a Mortar then the Great Cannon and/or Mortar become 2 for 1 special choice.
Example; a mortar is taken with an engineer upgrade allowing a second mortar to be taken as a single special choice.
The two Cannons and/or Mortars with the engineer are deployed at the same time as normal with the other war machines but MUST be deployed within 5 inches of each other.
Rare:
Flagellants 12pts. Stats as Empire army book but +1T
If your army includes a warrior priest or an arch lector then one and only one unit of Flagellants becomes a core choice.
Helblaster volley gun and Helstorm Rocket battery.
Helblaster 105pts.
May take a specialised Helblaster Engineer (see Great Cannons and Mortars) for +35pts
Extra crewman, Master of Ballistics-Helblaster.
Master of Ballistics-Helblaster; Helblaster may reroll any to hit rolls that miss.
If the Helblaster suffers a misfire and is destroyed, the Helblaster Engineer is killed along with the rest of the crew and machine.
Helstorm 110pts.
Steam Tank; 300pts
Same as book but may customise the layout, as in white dwarf number ....
(Does anyone know of the white dwarf where it showed you the customization you can do to your Steam Tank? I will try and find the article on it but they are all in storage.)
When I find the white dwarf article I will put the upgrades in here.
Lords:
I’m not going to touch special characters, have no experience with them and don’t intend to play empire with special characters anytime soon.
General of the Empire. M4 WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 LD9 95pts but slight points drop for equipment.
Hand weapon.
Ancestral Heirloom. Commander of Armies.
Great weapon +5, additional hand weapon +5 and/or a pistol +8.
May have a Longbow +5 or and/or a handgun +10
May wear Full plate Armour +10, Heavy Armour +5 or light armour +3.
May carry a shield +3
May ride a warhorse +14, which may have barding +5, an Imperial Pegasus +50 or a Griffon +185.
If mounted the General may take a Lance +5
May choose up to 100pts of magic items.
Commander of Armies: The General of the Empire is a hardened, battle tested individual, able to inspire the entire empire army with his presence.
If the General of the Empire is alive on the field than all State troops (including detachments of any kind) in the Empire army uses the Generals Leadership for any leadership based test, including break tests.
(I was gonna include every model but thought it would be a mite too good.)
Templar Grand Master. Same as book.
Arch Lector of Sigmar. Same as book. . . but slight points drop:
Great weapon +5, second war hammer +5.
May ride a warhorse +14, which may have barding +5
May ride upon a war Altar of Sigmar +125(only because people have been clamouring for an increase and it seems too good for what it does).
May choose up to 100pts of magic items.
Wizard Lord 165pts same as book but slight points drop.
May ride a warhorse +14, which may have barding +5.
Heroes:
Captain: Same as book but slight points drop.
Great Weapon +3, Halberd +3, additional hand weapon +3, and/or a Pistol +5
May take a Longbow +5 or a Handgun +10
Light armour +2, Heavy Armour +4, full plate +8, Shield +2
Warhorse +10, barding +4, Imperial Pegasus +50
50 pts of magic items.
Captain Battle standard Bearer. +25, normal options.
May take a shield+2
Warrior priest, same as book.
Battle wizard, same as book.
So there you have it, a whole list, re done just a little, let me know what you think about it. It took several days of hard thinking, including the points values and the why’s and wherefores but it looks pretty balanced to me, 8 years should be enough to discover if you know anything about the empire or not lol.
The reasons I made the state troops cheaper was twofold. First, GW will like that idea as they will be able to sell more models . . . or components, not too sure which. And second, it allows our foot sloggers to stand a chance against the huge amount of sheer killiness that we face against other armies.
The thought for the difference of equipment between champions was due with models and rules.
In the Rulebook, it states that characters can use different weapons than the unit they are in.
Unit champions are characters in the rules and I thought it would be awesome to represent this.
I gave them all full plate as base as the old sixth Ed models were basically armoured to the teeth.
Maybe I should make the champions 8 pts and then the full plate as an upgrade? What do you think of that idea?
Magic Weapons:
Runefang, 100points. Even though some of you said you wanted the Runefang costed down, it has been in two editions for the same price and I think it is ok for what it does. Although maybe opening it up to other lord choices is a good idea too?
Wyrmslayer sword, all scaly skin saves are lost. 10pts
Sword of Justice 15pts.
Magic Armour.
Gilded armour 35pts.
Dawn Armour. . . 35pts.
Helm of the Ratslayer 20pts.
Shield of the Gorgon. . . 20pts
Bronze shield 15pts.
Arcane Items.
Seal of Destruction 40pts.
Magic standards. (a much discussed topic, hopefully my suggestions will be useful and/or interesting lol)
Imperial Banner. I think this is priced fine the way it is. 100pts
Banner of Sigismund. 50pts
Griffon Banner, 50pts
Banner of the Daemonslayer, 50pts. Unit causes fear, available to anyone.
Banner of valour. Same, it seems well priced and helpful. . . Maybe make it 40pts and units within 6inches reroll panic tests?
Standard of Arcane Warding. Same, a good banner, a good price.
Steel Standard. Same.
Banner of Duty. Unit automatically rallies if fleeing. 20pts.
Ok guys, peruse at will and let me know if you like/don’t like/disagree/agree with anything I have written.
I will test run these point values every Sunday for you. . . It will be a little project of mine for the next half year until they release 8th edition and I spend every waking moment after work perusing through the things they have changed. . . first of the mark, halberd rules.
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I like almost everything in there, except handgunners with heavy armour. Even light armour isn't good.
I would love to see a fire by ranks option. So can fire in two ranks on flat ground. This will also equal them out with pavise crossbowmen.
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It already fires a large template
Opps sorry! How about multiple small templates? :D
Some will argue this point, but in my approximately 10 years or so of Warhammer experience, WS is by far the most important stat (aside from 'special rules', of course...).
What makes Halberdiers 'suck' is WS 3.
Not because this is a 'broken' rule, but because in a real life (....) game of Warhammer, most of your opponents will be fielding top heavy über-armies in which NO ONE - with the possible exception of the odd Goblin or Skeleton they had no choice but fielding in order to satisfy the bare minimum requirements of 'core troops'.....- will be anywhere under WS 4 or better.
With toughness/armor to match.
Which makes halberds useless.
Precisely why Swordsmen need to be WS 4.
Halberds do slightly better as detachments / counter-charge unit but has limited uses.
I'd say leave it as it is as every army book has its "sub-par" units.
If anybody has problems with Halberds units then don't use them! You can't have everything! And tbh, Empire players have a lot of options to get around problems like that.
I would think the biggest (and its the elephant in the room that is staring at us in the face) is Goldswords.
Possible solutions:
1. +1 Toughness to base stats (but they have full plate already)
2. +1 Attack to base stats (the usual step for special infantry)
3. Skirmish (will cause new problems)
4. +1 WS when charging.
5. Able to take detachments
6. Becomes core if X hero / lord choice is taken
I think the additional issues with the Goldswords is that they are a special choice and that the most important units for Empire (Pistoleers, Cannons and Inner Circle Knights) are special choices already this drives Goldwords down the pecking order.
Statistically, I think they are fine for a human army. Issue here is more of an army design flaw then a unit design flaw.
In my opinion, it's not that the Halberdiers or Swordsmen are 'broken' the way they are, what's 'broken' is the army selection process as a whole, meaning what's classified as 'core' , 'special' etc.
Example:
As per fluff, a Chaos Warrior is a 'chosen one from among the Marauders'.
Okey-dokey.
That works well and makes sense if said Chaos Warrior is used as something like a unit champion for a Marauder unit or if there's a small unit of Chaos Warriors as a 'special' choice, sort of along the lines of Greatswords.
Where it goes wrong is when large units of Chaos Warriors show up as 'core'......
This has, of course, a lot (= everything) to do with sales, GW know very well that there's a limit to the number of figures any wargamer (especially their core constituency of 6-15 year olds) is willing to buy and possibly even paint, so 'realistic' looking armies (with lots of troops which actually are core) are out.
Small, top-heavy elite armies HEAVY on characters, magic items and other flim-flam are in.
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I have read allot of the comments. And i must agree with you all that the book needs a update! I hope also that at least some units of Kislev return or perhaps a mix would be VERY nice. But GW knowing the units that are less taken will get the boost and offcourse the new plastic kits of the knights and the war altar. Maybe really maybe the kit of the waraltar could be made into a war wagon. But that would only be speculation. And bringing Reikguard back on foot would be a VERY nice idea!
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I would like to have
Halberdiers stay as they are but get stubborn
handgunners 8 points a pop fire from two ranks and reduce the range to 18 inch no penalty for stand and shoot reaction.
duelists instead of archer detachments aka free company with pistols
free company as skirmishers
knights no longer as core choice some light cav (lancers if you want) as core choice
pikes as core choice 8 points a pop and grant them detachments
greatswords stay as they are but give them a magical banner up to 50 points (they only stripped it off them because of the ancestral heirloom rule...asses).
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Here's a renew of what I would like to see in our 8th ed book.
Magic items:
-Sword of Sigismund 35pts
-Sword of Righteous Steel 20pts
-Sword of Justice (same but also gets +1 str) 25pts
-Wyrmslayer Sword 10pts
-Gilded Armour 30pts
-Dawn armour 30pts
-Armour of Tarnus 30pts
-Helm of the rat slayer 15pts
-Bronze shield (change to first hit form shooting or combat each turn)
-Jade Amulet 30pts
-Luck Stone 15pts
-Crystal Ball 10pts
-Banner of Sigismund 50pts
-Griffon standard 50pts
-Banner of the Daemonslayer (40pts and change to the unit causes fear.) Not restricted to just knights.
-Banner of Valor (Change to the unit is immune to panic and fear)
-Banner of Duty (Change to auto pass rally tests)
SC:
-Deathclaw is +185pts
-Bring in Tyrus, Magnus and Marius in the Lord choices.
-Volkmar 340pts
-Balthasar regains his pancrea potion from 6th ed.
-Luthor gets +1 attack and an extra +1 DD, 200pts
Lords:
1. General of the Empire
:Can take one of the following upgrades in addition to his magic item allowence.
-Master Archer, Can shot as many times as he has attacks. 20pts
-Inspiring general, +1 ld. 15pts
-Follower of Ulric, Hates all enemies with a ld value lower than 7. 5pts
-Wealthy, Can take 150pts worth of magic items instead of 100pts. 10pts
-Skill at arms, +1 Ws and I. 10pts
: The Griffon costs 175pts.
: New rule, The Commander: All friendly units and characters within 12" of him can re-roll failed panic and rally tests.
2. Wizard lord
-160pts base
3. Archlector
-War Altar is 125pts
Heroes:
1.Captain of the Empire
:Can take one of the following upgrades in addition to his magic item allowence.
-Master Archer, Can shot as many times as he has attacks. 20pts
-Inspiring general, +1 ld. 15pts
-Follower of Ulric, Hates all enemies with a ld value lower than 7. 5pts
-Wealthy, Can take 75pts worth of magic items instead of 50pts. 10pts
-Skill at arms, +1 Ws and I. 10pts
2. Master Engineer
-Remove the Mech steed
-+1 Bs and can take upto 50pts worth of magic items.
-55pts
Core:
1. Halberdiers
-Attacks are Armour piercing.
2. Knightly Orders
-Replace the Great Weapons with the cavalry hammer.
Same rules as in 6th ed.
3. Huntsmen
-Can take 1 unit per every archer unit.
-Min unit size 5-10
-Bs 4.
4. New unit Pikemen
-Same rules for DOW pikemen
-Not state troops
-8pts base.
-Command costs 4,8,8.
Special:
1. Greatswords:
-Immune to fear
-Can take upto a 50pt magic banner.
2. Inner circle Knights
-+1 Ws
-28pts base.
-Replace the Great Weapons with the cavalry hammer.
Same rules as in 6th ed.
3. New unit Halfling archers.
-Same stats and rules as in the DOW list
-New Rule: Magic resistance 1.
-pts 7
Rare:
1. Stank
-You get half VP if it's taken down to half its wounds.
-Only one per every 2000pts.
2. Helblaster
-Change the six misfire result to the 6th ed six misfire result.
3. Flagellants
-12pts
-T 4
4. New unit Warwagon
5. New unit Reiksguard
-Stats same as a Greatswords but +1 I and Ws.
-Same options and unit size as the Greatswords.
-Equipment: FPA, Shield, hand weapon
-Special Rules: Stubborn, Immune to fear.
-Points: 13
There we go.
cheers.