Topic: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?

[phillyt]

I was being funny, wasn't that the way it was in 3rd edition?

Phil

[Uryens de Crux]

I was being funny, wasn't that the way it was in 3rd edition?

Phil

No, they were all in the same book.

I really, really like a lot of the later developments the armies went through, empire detachments for one, but I also love the much greater flexibility of the older systems

[Dannyfave]

I was being funny, wasn't that the way it was in 3rd edition?

Phil

Not to replace the actual army books , but rather something like the LOTR book that lets you mix match and allie your "good" and "evil" armnies.(but not together)

[Ownkreig von Pwnage]

What about Demons of Sigmar.  They could be all rippling with muscles, covered in sweat.  Their long hair flowing behind them as they wield their enormous clubs...

Phil

How about a hero that slays with his rapier wit and greathammer sarcasm?

 

this stuff is fantastic, but how bout sigmar daemons with the sweat and the hair and stuff that slay the enemy with rapier wit!  they could use quotes from Rambo and the Terminator, although those would be more like giant battle axe wit than rapier wit 

[scarletsquig]

New unit: Warhammermen.

Profile: Standard human.
Equipment: Warhammer

Points: 4

[Merrick]

New unit: Warhammermen.

Profile: Standard human.
Equipment: Warhammer

Points: 4

See, this is so simple. Send it off to GW.

[Captain Tineal]

New unit: Warhammermen.

Profile: Standard human.
Equipment: Warhammer

Points: 4

See, this is so simple. Send it off to GW.

They will screw it up. 

[Backwater]

WISHLIST:

Heroes: 2x Engineers per Hero slot, Engineering Items

Core: Spearmen with ASF on the first round of combat when holding against charge. Witch Hunter as a unit upgrade and works somewhat the same way as assassins.

Special: War Wagons, charriots are just cool. 2x Mortars per Special slot, battery rule that will keep them 3" from each other, little like detachment from parent unit...

Bw

[The newbie]

To make Empire a bit more competitive and more diverse I thought about the possibility of devotions to gods (like chaos).

They can only be taken by state troops, if a hero joins the unit he is not effected by this devotion e.g.

Devotion to Sigmar: +1 strength 30pts
Devotion to Ulric: +1 leadership 25pts
Devotion to Morr: Immune to Fear 25pts
Devotion to Shallya: 6+ Regeneration 20pts

What do you think? It may solve the Halberdier problem by having S5

[Dezzo]

Oh, I'll offer my 10 cents given the current armybook trends I'll try to predict whats going to happen to Empire...

Lord / Heroes:

Special characters get cheaper. And more SCs too. 

Normal characters get a point hit (get more expensive and hence less practical so you'd be "forced" to use Special characters.

Magic items get cheaper. Some favorite Ward save items will get removed. Imperial Banner might just grant stubborn to all units within 12" and be 125 points.

Core::

Archers become 5 - 6 points. Get Ld 6 and WS 2

Crossbowmen follow Archers.

Knightly Orders: Preceptor gets cheaper. Knights get bumped up to 25 points.

Special:

Pistoliers become Core.

Gryphon Legion get another attack and bump to 30 points. But special rule only lets them have 1 attack if they use the Lance on the charge.

Outriders get to move and shoot for one turn. Next turn they cannot shoot but can move or charge.

Greatswords get 2 attacks but bumped to 14 - 15 points.

Rare:


Helstorm Rocket Battery gets to fire large template.

Helblaster Volley Gun gets auto hit shots.


Army Special rules:


Detachment rules to change to something even better... like detachments get +1 attack on the charge against an enemy unit that is in combat with a parent unit.

Overall, the flexibility of Empire prevents it from being totally redundant after the release of the latest books. It only needs a few tweaks to bring it up to par (although Empire will never be on par to lets say, Daemons) to this Edition, or the next.

[commandant]

Rare:


Helstorm Rocket Battery gets to fire large template.

It already fires a large template

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

As our state troops are supposed to be drilling all the time, would it be a good idea to include more specific tactics apart from the detachment rule?

For instance:

Defensive square: for an extra 25 (?) pts a unit of state troops gains the ability to form a defensive square.
In the movement phase, this unit can reform into a square. This is indicated by turning the flank and rear soldiers to face outward.
Each side of the unit now gains the same bonuses, as if it were in front (e.g. armour bonus for hand weapon with shield).
Each side has now the rank bonus the unit would normally have (or perhaps -1?).
Flank and rear attacks by the enemy do not deny the rank bonus of the unit, and do not provide any flank/rear attack bonus.
In a square formation, the unit can never move, attack or pursue, even if other rules would normally require them to do so. However, the unit does flee as normal.
Detachments can conduct counter charges and provide support fire, as normal.
In the movement phase, the square can reform to its normal disposition at half movement cost.

What are your thoughts? Useful or crap? Balanced? Too complicated?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Reading again my post, I should add: the unit cannot flee as a reaction to attack. However, after failing a break test, it flees as normal.

[Wolfgang aus Wien]

Well, my Free Company are mostly Halflings and about half of my artillery crew are Dwarves.
Which looks really cool, imho, and makes a ton of sense if you go by the fluff, what with the Empire being this great big federation and all, and that's kind of the way it was right up until 5th edition.
My Bretonnian army has a few Wood Elf minis riding with them - I don't use any special rules for them, I just treat them as Knights - which also makes sense, since the Brets and Woodies are supposed to be pretty friendly as per fluff and the forest of Loren technically lies within the borders of Bretonnia.
In one of my favorite fantasy battle games, Slaughterloo, you are fairly free to mix races without violating any of the fluff/background, so an army that combines Orcs (British), Goblins (Portuguese), Dark Elves (Spanish) and Dwarves (Prussians) is entirely within the rules as well as background.

[Rune]

I've been thinking a bit about some kind of a list how I personally would update the Empire. On top of that I would love to re write some of the other army books, or at least tweak them out a bit. I just have this tendency of tweaking and doing my own versions of stuff, you know?

Anyways, I won't go into details just now, but just start copy/pasting from my notes and writing stuff. I'll try to cover everything I've been thinking about.

- - -

Below are listed just the changes that would be done to the things mentioned. Anything not mentioned would stay the same.

GotE
1. Heirloom: A unit of state troops may choose a magic banner worth 60pts.

2. May choose one of the following:

Military leader - 15pts
+1 Ws and I
Political leader - 30pts
+1 special slot, +1 to minimium core units
Inspirational leader - 25pts
If he is the General units within 15" may use his Ld. If he's not the general, units within 6" may use his Ld.

3. Griffon costs only 140 points.

Grandmaster
1. Organisation: For each Grandmaster you must have a unit of Inner Circle Knights. For each Grandmaster one unit of Inner Circle Knights is core instead of special.

Battle Standard Bearer
1. Can use all normal equipment as other armies' BSBs can.

The War Altar
1. Cost increase to 125.

2. Change Unbreakable to Stubborn and Immune to Psychology.

Engineer
1. Increase Bs to 5.

2. Allow magic items up to 25 points.

3. At the start of the battle you may choose a unit of pistoliers, handgunners or outriders. The first time that unit shoots the Strength of their weapons is increased by 1.

War Machines
1. The Helblaster does not suffer -1 to hit modifier for shooting skirmishers.

2. The Mortar has -2 armour save modifier.

Handgunners and Crossbowmen
1. Have light armour.

Huntsmen
1. Have longbows.

2. Cost 9 points.

State Troops
Greatswords, Halberdiers, Spearmen, Swordsmen, Handgunners and Crossbowmen are State Troops.

Greatsword - 11pts
Ws4 Bs3 S4 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8
Full plate mail, Greatswords
Stubborn

Swordsmen - 5pts
Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld7
Light armour, Shield

Spearmen - 5pts
Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7
Light armour, Spear
-May have shields for 1pts/model

Halberdiers - 5pts
Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7
Heavy armour, Halberd

Handgunner/Crossbowman - 8pts
Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7
Light armour, handgun/crossbow

1. Up to half of State Troop units in your army (round up) (detachments do not count) may be upgraded to Veterans for +1 points per model. Veterans have +1 Ws or Bs.

Magic Items:
Runefang - 75pts
same

Sword of Justice
No longer allows re-rolls to spells.

Wyrmslayer sword
Now ignores all scaly skin saves, not only those of large targets.

Gilded armour - 35pts
Enemies allocating attacks against the wearer now have to pass a single S test if they want to attack at all.

Helm of Skaven Slaying - 15pts
same

Seal of Destruction - 35pts
Now works on 3+.

The Silver Horn - 30pts
same

Orb of Thunder
Now adds +1 to amount of hits made by Uranor's Thunderbolt and Forked Lightning spells while active.

Banner of Demonslaying
The unit causes fear.

Banner of Duty
Now works even while fleeing.

- - -

That's basically it in all simplicity. Of course there would be some space for a couple of new magic items, and a few things I wrote down are minor things or something that I kind of came up with while writing. For example the engineer dilemma. And I still don't know if the Helblaster crew should have Bs4 or not. It's not bad as it is, but... You know.

And, I don't know if the veteran rule should be restricted only to half of the units, but to all. But then the BS bonus should be either removed or further restricted.

Any thoughts? I mean, I find that a fairly simple and effective update. But, at the same time I would love to tweak the other armies too, and some a lot. Blodoy ward saves... I'd almost make them all work only against mundane attacks. Honestly.

[Merrick]

We should get, like, y'know, freakin' huge steam titans.
Because, like, that's what GW will come up with at this rate, with what they're smokin'.
Some goooood shit right there.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

And Space Mar... I mean "Imperial Guard".

[Rune]

We should get, like, y'know, freakin' huge steam titans.
Because, like, that's what GW will come up with at this rate, with what they're smokin'.
Some goooood shit right there.

Maybe they'll start selling it in GW stores as hobby material. I mean, you've got a point.

Whatever they're using, I'd really like to try it out.

Or some other game than Warhammer... Either solution might make me smile again when thinking about "hobby gaming".

The two above posts, in my opinion, sum the general attitude towards GW's new publishments all around the world... -_-; But I'm still, still hoping for the better. Or I'll gather together the people from around these parts and we'll rewrite the books in a Ravening Hordes manner and use those with 7th ed rules.

If they fuck up the new beastmen book I'll go kill a bunny. Or bomb Nottingham.

But um, any thoughts on the subject?

[warhammerlord_soth]

On bombing Nottingham ?
 
 
That would be quite easy to do.

[Rune]

On bombing Nottingham ?
 
 
That would be quite easy to do.

And, in fact, little would be lost...

[Merrick]

I mean, gun crime and hobby retardedness would drop a significant amount.

Especially if you bomb during the GT season.

[Warlord]

Bloody ward saves... I'd almost make them all work only against mundane attacks. Honestly.

Agree. Magical attacks should negate ward saves.

[Skyros]

Something should be done about halberdiers. Make them come standard with HA, or boost their I and weaponskill, or something.

Helblaster needs to get some of its 6th ed oomph back. Why do you roll the artillery dice to see how many hits you get, then roll to see if those hits actually hit? One of these steps should be removed.

Engineers: Oh goodness, engineers need so much work it isn't funny. I would never consider taking an engineer. Maybe if they were much cheaper and could reroll for Hell blaster volley guns and the rocket  batteries, while still shooting/using equipment. The Robo horse needs to die a quiet death. I don't mind pigeon bombs.

Generals of the empire need to let you take a unit of greatswords as core. We have far too many special choices already.

Give us back halflings! Maybe rare halfling skirmishers? Halfling hotpot?

We need some banners that don't suck.

[Wolfgang aus Wien]

Some will argue this point, but in my approximately 10 years or so of Warhammer experience, WS is by far the most important stat (aside from 'special rules', of course...).
What makes Halberdiers 'suck' is WS 3.
Not because this is a 'broken' rule, but because in a real life (....) game of Warhammer, most of your opponents will be fielding top heavy über-armies in which NO ONE - with the possible exception of the odd Goblin or Skeleton they had no choice but fielding in order to satisfy the bare minimum requirements of 'core troops'.....- will be anywhere under WS 4  or better.
With toughness/armor to match.
Which makes halberds useless.

[Dezzo]

It already fires a large template

Opps sorry! How about multiple small templates?

Some will argue this point, but in my approximately 10 years or so of Warhammer experience, WS is by far the most important stat (aside from 'special rules', of course...).
What makes Halberdiers 'suck' is WS 3.
Not because this is a 'broken' rule, but because in a real life (....) game of Warhammer, most of your opponents will be fielding top heavy über-armies in which NO ONE - with the possible exception of the odd Goblin or Skeleton they had no choice but fielding in order to satisfy the bare minimum requirements of 'core troops'.....- will be anywhere under WS 4  or better.
With toughness/armor to match.
Which makes halberds useless.

Precisely why Swordsmen need to be WS 4.

Halberds do slightly better as detachments / counter-charge unit but has limited uses.

I'd say leave it as it is as every army book has its "sub-par" units.

If anybody has problems with Halberds units then don't use them! You can't have everything! And tbh, Empire players have a lot of options to get around problems like that.

I would think the biggest (and its the elephant in the room that is staring at us in the face) is Goldswords.

Possible solutions:

1. +1 Toughness to base stats (but they have full plate already)
2. +1 Attack to base stats (the usual step for special infantry)
3. Skirmish (will cause new problems)
4. +1 WS when charging.
5. Able to take detachments
6. Becomes core if X hero / lord choice is taken

I think the additional issues with the Goldswords is that they are a special choice and that the most important units for Empire (Pistoleers, Cannons and Inner Circle Knights) are special choices already this drives Goldwords down the pecking order.

Statistically, I think they are fine for a human army. Issue here is more of an army design flaw then a unit design flaw.