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Author Topic: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia  (Read 9903 times)

Offline FVC

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Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« on: June 04, 2007, 08:59:56 AM »
At long last, we have hammered out our offer for an alliance with the Empire. This is our proposal - I do not expect you will find anything objectionable but, if you do, maybe it can be accommodated.


1/ There will be full cooperation between Empire and Bretonnian armies facing evil races, which are defined as: Dark Elves, Orcs and Goblins, Hordes of Chaos, Beasts of Chaos, Skaven, Ogre Kingdoms, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, all sub-lists of those armies, and all mercenary (Dogs of War) armies working for those armies.

Bretonnia will render all possible aid to Empire armies engaged in battle against these forces and vice versa. Bretonnia shall also undertake to protect the non-combatant population of the Empire against these forces and, in the unlikely event of Bretonnian non-combatants being threatened, the Empire shall also aid in their protection.

2/ If an army of either Bretonnia or the Empire enters into conflict with races not covered above (i.e. Dwarfs, High Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen) the other is not required to come to their aid directly but shall agree to aid them indirectly in any means requested, whether through reconnaissance information, sharing of supplies, or diplomatic aid.

Should one of these races threaten immediate physical harm to the non-combatant population of either the Empire or Bretonnia, both nations shall endeavour to protect that population by whatever means may be required.

3/ All armies of Bretonnia following the orders of the King and the Council of the Round Table of Bretonnia shall be given free access to the lands of the Empire and given passage throughout. Should a Bretonnian army require rest or lodgings, Empire garrisons are to provide this, though in times of heavy demand they shall give priority to armies of the Empire. Bretonnian armies shall retain the right to purchase supplies and provisions at a reasonable price from merchants and traders of the Empire.

4/ Bretonnia shall be given the right to settle and develop abandoned villages and forts within the Great Forest, provided that no existing Empire noble owns the land in question. Bretonnian nobles undertaking this shall swear an oath of allegiance to the Emperor and the Empire and be treated in all respects as nobles of the Empire. They shall observe all laws of the Empire in governing these areas, including that regarding peasant and merchant welfare.

5/ Should either Bretonnia or the Empire find themselves in a state of armed conflict with the free city of Marienburg or other armies in the Wasteland or Marches of Couronne, the other nation shall make no intervention whether covert or overt in aid of Marienburg. Similarly, should either nation find themselves in similar conflict with the Border Princes, the other shall not intervene in any way.


I await your response.

Offline Veldemere

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2007, 09:52:47 AM »
FVC thankyou for your efforts on both forums. I find this alliance acceptable on most points but would ask for clarification on point 5, I would find it difficult to see an invading force on our borders (even if the aggression is not directed at the Empire) I would prefer the intention of this line to be that any such plans were considered with the offer of aid from the Empire with the resulting benefits for both sides.

Other than that I look forward to working alongside Knights from your realm, vote 1 for accepting the treaty (are we going to poll it?)
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Offline Volkmar The Grim

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2007, 10:06:39 AM »
well you have my Vote having the knights of the round tabel is better than any lizerd or Elf :biggriin:

Offline Ostermarker

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2007, 10:11:34 AM »
I agree with the Veldemere's point, I doubt that Bretonnians would feel ssafe with an army in the Marches of Couronne, as the Empire would feel unsafe with an in the Wasteland.

Apart from that, I think that the alliance could work successfully.
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Offline FVC

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2007, 10:40:25 AM »
Basically, the reason for point 5 is that, as discussed in the Foreign Ministry topic, we're interested in expanding the Marches of Couronne, at Marienburg's expense. We don't expect to conquer Marienburg or come butting up against the edges of the Empire, but we'd like a guarantee that if we do go expanding there, you're not going to jump in on Marienburg's side. That city has played the Empire and Bretonnia against each other far too much.

Offline Veldemere

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2007, 10:47:25 AM »
I understand that and also see the validity of the reasoning, but I would stop short of a treaty that says you can invade marienberg and take control of the significant trade port and potentially control trade for the Empire. If the wording were tweaked slightly I would be happy, I don't think anyone would object to agreeing not to stand against you but just something to say you would offer us 'a piece of the action' so we could then find an amicable way to share the wealth.
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Offline Ostermarker

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2007, 10:54:09 AM »
Indeed, I agree, but the way its written an Empire army could attempt to take the Marches of Couronne, or a Bretonnian one could go for the Wasteland. Of course that's not meant to happen, but the way its written the an unscrupulous character (GW) could twist it like so.

It may be better therefore to make it two points, one in reference to Bretonnia, and one to the Empire. Hmm, as Veldemere has just written (after I'd written this) what about point seven? Basically:

5. Should Bretonnia find herself in a state of armed conflict with the free city of Marienburg or other armies in the Marches of Couronne, the Empire shall make no intervention whether covert or overt in aid of Marienburg. Similarly, should Bretonnia find herself in similar conflict with the Border Princes, the Empire shall not intervene against her in any way.

6. Should the Empire find herself in a state of armed conflict with the free city of Marienburg or other armies in the Wasteland, Bretonnia shall make no intervention whether covert or overt n aid of Marienburg. Similarly, should the Empire find herself in similar conflict with the Border Princes, Bretonnia shall not intervene against her in any way.

7. Due to the economic importance of Marienburg to both countries, if either the Empire or Bretonnia take it, the docks shall be shared, and the city split across the Reik, the side containing the gate from the Gisoreux Road belonging to Bretonnia, the side containing the gate from the Middenheim Road belonging to the Empire.


Though, as I am neither an ambassador nor a diplomat, this is merely advise and I dare not speak for the rest of Warhammer-Empire.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 03:17:14 PM by Ostermarker »
So, Ostmarkers wear purple, but it's manly purple, not like that Bretonnian purple.

Offline Lachieo

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2007, 11:17:43 AM »
I say we go for the alliance, the human race must stick together in such time of dire need if we are to prevail.
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Offline FVC

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2007, 12:46:33 PM »
That sounds a reasonable amendment, Ostermarker. I don't think any of us expect to take Marienburg the city, but some sort of provision for that would be logical. I'll just check that we can change that with the council (which I'm sure we will be able to), and then you may consider it done.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2007, 01:03:46 PM »
My vote goes for the noble Brets. Great sorrow fills my heart by the doing of Elf and dwarf but I see why those once great races killed each other like some sqabbling snotlings. I hope one day the will be close enough the the edge of destruction that they remember their once proud heritage. Man fighting alongside Man will soon drive the evil out of the old world. I will share mead and meat with every Bretonian noble and Soldier who will visit the Räuberdale and aid our cause.

Offline Sherminator1

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2007, 01:06:32 PM »
I cast my vote in favor of this alliance.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2007, 01:06:46 PM »
Good work guys.  You've got my vote!
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Offline Sterling Bloodprint

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2007, 01:45:56 PM »
OOC: it's good, but heavily in favor of the Bretonians. If I were working this deal, this is my take:

1 & 2) standard mission statement. Allies Vs. Evil... the only races I would specify are Orcs and Goblins, Undead, and Skaven. Add a statement to the effect of "Any army sworn to the forces of Chaos" for the rest. Add a statement of "Any armed force travelling in Empire lands without the consent of the empire" for the dogs of war and to cover any unforseen circumstances. The reason for this is that Elves are a race, whether they are high, dark or wood... at least if you ask most humans. Dark Elves are sworn to chaos, the others aren't. Many forces of Chaos are human and others are unidentifiable, but all need to be included in the agreement. Using the term "race" is decieving. This leaves the debate open about Dwarves as well, allowing the Empire to change his mind at any time should an agreement be reached or all-out war be declared. Non-combatant aid should be a seperant clause.

3 & 4) serious problems here. "free access to the lands of the Empire and given passage throughout." Is never something that should be agreed to. By the terms of this contract, the bretonians could march an army into your throne room and have a sword at your throat. At the very least, cut it to "reasonable" access, or better yet, designate that a bretonian army must be accompanied by a member of the Empire's nobility or a member of the empire state force of rank no less than Captain. This empire representative will be permitted, at his discression, to limit access of the armies of Bretonia.

I don't believe that the Bretonians have a ulterior motive, and I think the roundtable is just overlooking the fact that this agreement fits 100% into the "land-grab" objective stated in the booklet. If GW decides that these agreements will stand up to the campaign, the empire will lose a large chunk of territory. After all, the clause turns "abandoned" villages and villages with "no *existing* Empire *Noble*". That leaves 2 openings, one for unfortunate casualties among empire nobility and the other for disputed claims of Nobility. At the very least, change "no existing Empire noble owns the land in question" to "the empire has no prior claim to the land".

Marienburg is Marienburg... oh well.

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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2007, 01:50:03 PM »
The ogre does make a good point.  A small tweak that I think everyone can agree upon.
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Offline FVC

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2007, 02:05:16 PM »
The lists in 1/ and 2/ are OOC distinctions based upon the army book system. IC, we would be saying pretty much what you suggest, but the aim was to make it absolutely clear, beyond any doubt, what does and what does not constitute an 'evil race'. We don't want the Empire to be going 'hey, help us against army X' while we're saying 'that's not in the treaty, sorry'.

(Incidentally, that's the reason for the capitalisation. As a rule, I do not capitalise those words when referring to a race (e.g. elves, dwarfs, ogres), but do when referring to the army or a cultural distinction within a race (e.g. Bretonnia, High Elves). So we're clear. :-)

Plus, technically, the Dark Elves are not sworn to Chaos. Unless Khaine became a Chaos god while I wasn't looking?)

For 3/, you make a valid point, and perhaps the modifier 'within reason' should be added. I stop short at giving Empire officials discretionary power to bar us, as that would make the deal a bit of a sham, wouldn't it? If they can decide when the agreement applies and when it doesn't, then it's biased towards the Empire, isn't it? If they make the choice then we're back where we started.

For point 4/, you're right, it fits into the land grab motivation. It is there and we do want to remain loyal to it, to a certain extent. This is our attempt to resolve the land question honourably and without aggression. The implication that a Bretonnian would kill the ranking Empire noble in order to snatch the land is, to be frank, offensive and slanderous. The question of the meaning of 'abandoned'... perhaps it could be specified in greater detail, but I would think the intent is clear. An abandoned village is one that has been uninhabited for a considerable period of time. We could specify 'abandoned for at least ten years prior to the outbreak of this conflict' or somesuch if it would help. Similarly, we could change 'Imperial noble' to specify that they are defined as such under Imperial law (because Bretonnian law does of course treat nobility rather differently), but as with the village issue, I would have thought that was implied.

I would not specify that 'the Empire has no prior claim to the land', though. The Empire has prior claim to every piece of land in the Empire, by definition. Nor does the clause really undermine that - as stated, by taking possession of that land the Bretonnian in question would become an Imperial noble, and receive the land by due process.

And yes, I think ogres are evil. We already argued this on Bugman's. Perhaps it should be changed to say 'excepting ogres under the employ of the Empire', but, as I said, it is a wargame distinction used. As the Ogre Kingdoms army has made an alliance pact with the dwarfs (as you well know), and the dwarfs are, how shall I say this, the bad guys, it seems reasonable to group the ogres in with them. Naturally Bretonnians are not willing to take up lances against dwarfs unless absolutely necessary, but they have no compunction regarding ogres.

Offline Sterling Bloodprint

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2007, 02:51:17 PM »
OOC: The two leaders of the DE race are sworn to chaos and have made numberous pacts with demons according to the fluff. Khaine is not one of the 4 recognized Chaos gods, but there is some dispute about whether he is a god or a demon or what... Kinda like the Great Maw. Is it a god, or a meteor that hit sperstitious people? However, unlike the Maw (which, on a personal note, I am hoping is a warpstone meteor that blows up and goes away so we can be more like Ogryn's from 40K...) he is almost certainly a chaos God or Demon.

I would determine it based on how much the empire trusts you... when my empire army is together and I am ready to not be an Ogre on occasion, I would support a word-of-honor proposal. Every knight should swear an oath upon entering Empire lands that you do so in good faith solely for the purpose of defending the innocent, destroying the forces of evil, and promoting the peaceful co-existence of your two kingdoms, without ulterior motivations or agendas. Because of your aid during the storm of chaos, I would not *require* such an oath... but I would ask for it. I believe most knight would voluntarily swear such an oath, and eliminate any need for further debate on the matter.

on point 4, I try to never imply anything in a contract. If I mean to say something, I say it. I did not mean to imply that you would take part in such murders yourselves... but we are dealing with possible Skaven and Dark Elf invaders, both races known for assassination.

"by taking possession of that land the Bretonnian in question would become an Imperial noble, and receive the land by due process."
*is not the same as*
"be treated in all respects as nobles of the Empire. They shall observe all laws of the Empire in governing these areas, including that regarding peasant and merchant welfare."

If you mean to become Imperial nobility, then the empire must become your first allegiance, and IIRC, no knight sworn to his duty can do that. The final statement about observing all laws is only necesary if you still consider yourself exempt from thos laws otherwise. If you *become* a noble, then you are subject to imperial law. If you do not become a noble, but instead are given the rights and lands of one, then the second sentence becomes important. Since you included it, you are essentially stating that you are *not* Imperial subjects or nobles, you are merely acting as one and should be treated as one. Your loyalty is elsewhere.

"The Empire has prior claim to every piece of land in the Empire, by definition."
that is true. in other words, if I were the empire negotiator, I would be saying "No land grabs, thanks." then you make a counter-offer, like "abandoned for a certain period". Negotiating :)

I know you think we are evil. I'm not convinced we aren't, that's for sure... but here we have a problem. The dwarves are not the "bad guys". The bad guys are the ones that want to get the crown and take over the world, probably killing the lot of you. The dwarves would prevent that from happening. They aren't doing it in a very polite way, and they aren't very reasonable... but as I have stated, they feel that they can't afford to be. They are not "bad guys".

Offline Veldemere

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2007, 03:06:29 PM »
I feel we could possibly get bogged down on semantics here, whilst it is possible to read any sentance several ways I feel that this treaty is based on principal. With regards to obeying the laws I am sure you would find that even Imperial nobles excercise a little 'noblesse oblige' (hopefully nowhere near as much as some early English nobles did!). Any noble from Bretonnia (note, not Bretonnian noble) who behaves in an improper manner and believes that the Elector of the region would not make an example of them is a fool.

Rather than putting the lawyers on this I feel it is a good principal and will show the trust between the nations of man.
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Offline Tostig

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2007, 03:10:06 PM »
I heartily agree with the spirit of this alliance. Other people can quibble about details if they so desire, as details are very important. But none the less I believe that the spirit of it is in the right place.

Offline Ostermarker

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2007, 03:16:44 PM »
I agree with Veldemere and Tostig, the only real point I wanted to clarify was the Marienburg issue which I am glad FVC agrees with my amendment  :biggriin:

Apart from that I think its down to the lawyers on point of land inside the Empire.
So, Ostmarkers wear purple, but it's manly purple, not like that Bretonnian purple.

Offline Sterling Bloodprint

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2007, 03:18:21 PM »
OOC: oh, don't get me wrong... there is nothing my future self would do to actually jeapradize the alliance. Me and FVC would probably discuss and hammer out details, but only because we both enjoy doing so. I like the challenge, and as long as we don't mess it up too much, it's all good. in fact, some real good could come out of it, with Bretonian knights having Imperial rank and nobility, pulling the two realms even closer together.

Personally, I would like to see it work similar to Chaos:
If your general is Bretonian, your core choices are normal bretonian core. Special choices are empire core or Bretonian Special, Rare are Empire special and Bretonian rare... and vice verse for the Empire generals.

rather than posting IC, I pretty much just make an appropriately gruesome threat at FVC... and then threaten to kill people until he agrees I'm not evil (hehe). Probably storm out in a huff.

Offline Dendo Star

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2007, 04:38:03 PM »
Grand.  I vote yea.  :happy:

Thank you to all who made this possible and on such agreeable, fair terms. Heheh.

I would not consider the Oges "Evil".  I'm glad we can make the minor alterations needed there.
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Offline clausewitz

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2007, 08:30:08 PM »
Alliance with Bretonnia gets my vote too.

Just one small point when finalising the details.

In item 3 could we specify the "free passage etc" to be free passage for the purpose of combatting the current crisis and for the duration of the current crisis.  That way we are assuming both sides to be honest (no slights of honour due to imposing guides or whatever) but are limiting the terms to be relevent to the campaign.

Thank you for all your efforts FVC.  I have high hopes for our alliance.
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Offline Ostermarker

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2007, 09:33:30 PM »
Why not add, at the end:

8. This alliance will last for the duration of the search for the Nemesis Crown, however, if both parties agree, then the alliance may be extended at their leisure.
So, Ostmarkers wear purple, but it's manly purple, not like that Bretonnian purple.

Offline clausewitz

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2007, 10:08:23 PM »
8. This alliance will last for the duration of the Nemesis Crown crisis, however, if both parties agree, then the alliance may be extended at their leisure.

We should remain allies beyond just the search.
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Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Official alliance offer from Bretonnia
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2007, 10:14:19 PM »
That would rule! Maybe you could teach our lousy knights a thing or two about fashion and how to rank correctly... And in return we can give helblasters and volleyguns to your pesants!

EDIT: Now that I think about it... Helblasters and Volleyguns are the same thing...  :eusa_wall: What about a rocket battery. Combine that with peasants and the idea behind the Goblin Doom Diver Catapult and we got ourselves a winner  :icon_eek:  HOLD IT! What about Flagellants!!! OMFG, Who did the SUFFER rules!? Was that Shadowlord? I think we may have a winner here...
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 10:19:31 PM by Wyzer1 »
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