Warhammer-Empire.com
Imperial Artisans ... The Painters, Crafters & Writers Guilds => The Imperial Office => Topic started by: rufus sparkfire on April 22, 2004, 10:50:44 AM
-
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/library/guide/guide_index.php
A couple of people may remember that I am working on a guide to army theme for each of the provinces and city-states of our glorious Empire. I'm basing it on all the official background I have access to, and it will combine current 'canonical' material with older stuff (where the old does not contradict the new).
Anyway, I'm about half-way through and have been for some time. The problem is, I'm not sure of the best format for this information. What I have now was easiest to write, but I don't know if it really 'works'.
So, please have a look at this brief sample, the Altdorf section of the guide. Any feedback will be gratefully accepted. I prefer the positive variety, but if you would rather question my scholarship/virility/parentage you can do that instead. Or as well, I'm not fussy.
Here it is:
Altdorf (red and blue)
Altdorf is the Imperial capital, the seat of Karl-Franz; home to the Great Cathedral of Sigmar, the Colleges of Magic and the School of Engineers. The city is a centre for trade and learning; its docks teem with merchants, its taverns with students. As the largest and richest city in The Empire, its troops are perhaps the best equipped of all the state armies. Altdorf maintains not only its own army, but also the Emperor’s guard (see the appendix list in the army book).
The city is the headquarters for the Cult of Sigmar, founder and patron god of The Empire. The Cult is strictly hierarchical – there are eighteen Lectors, two Arch-Lectors and at the top the Grand Theogonist (who some say wields more power and influence than the Emperor himself). Johann Esmer currently hold the office, replacing Volkmar ‘the Grim’ von Hindenstern who was killed in battle with a northern barbarian leader. The Cult is divided into three orders: the Order of the Silver Hammer are the warrior priests; the Order of the Torch are the administrators, and are responsible for officiating at religious ceremonies; the Order of the Anvil are monastic, and live a life of isolation and meditation.
Altdorf may lie at the heart of The Empire, but it has been besieged many times. The Orc warlord Gorbad Ironclaw almost took the city in 1707, and Emperor Sigismund died defending the walls from attacking wyverns. During the long wars against the Vampire Counts of Sylvania Altdorf was twice besieged – first by Vlad von Carstein, and later by his successor Manfred. Both times the Undead were turned back, but only at the cost of many lives.
Altdorf’s heraldry includes the Hammer of Sigmar, the Imperial crown and the griffon.
• All possible character choices are very appropriate, with the exception of the Elector Count. Since there is no Elector Count of Altdorf, this character should be re-named as a Marshall, Burgomaster or something similar.
• Though Altdorf almost certainly has a temple to Ulric, Warrior Priests should generally be Sigmarite. Sigmar’s symbols include the hammer, the twin-tailed comet and the octagon (this is formed from two superimposed squares with their points joined up, and represents the eight tribes unified by Sigmar).
• Many special characters are from Altdorf: the Emperor Karl-Franz, the Supreme Patriarch Balthasar Gelt, the Reiksmarshall Kurt Helborg, the Emperor’s Champion Ludwig Schwartzhelm, the former Supreme Patriarch Thyrus Gormann and the deceased Grand Theogonist Volkmar the Grim.
• A Templar Grand Master could represent either the Reiksmarshall, or the head of the High Helms, the Order of the Fiery Heart or the Knights Griffon (see below).
• The following magic items have a direct connection to Altdorf: the Sword of Justice, the Armour of Meteoric Iron, the Grey Wand, the Imperial Banner, the Banner of Sigismund and the Griffon Standard. Even though there is no Runefang for Altdorf, the swords belonging to the lost provinces of Drakwald and Solland are held in the Imperial Vaults – thus an Elector Count equivalent could easily be using one of these swords.
• The Imperial Zoo houses a large collection of monstrous creatures, including many Griffons and Pegasi.
• Halberdiers, Swordsmen, Greatswords (either as the Altdorf Greatswords or the Reiksguard infantry) and Handgunners should be the main infantry choices. Archers and Huntsmen should be avoided (too rustic).
• Flagellants can represent pilgrims travelling to the Cathedral of Sigmar.
• Free Company and Dogs of War Duellists can be used to represent the many gangs of the city’s docklands.
• Steam Tanks, Helblaster Volley Guns, repeater pistols/handguns and Hochland long rifles fit better here than anywhere else in The Empire, since Altdorf is home to the School of Engineers.
• Altdorf is literally crawling with young nobles – these can be represented by Pistoliers.
• Cannon and Mortars, purchased from Nuln, will almost invariably be present in the army.
• There are four primary Knightly Orders that are most appropriate for an Altdorf Army: the Reiksguard are the personal guard of the Emperor; the High Helms are a new order of very tall (and allegedly rather dim-witted) knights, formed at the order of Karl-Franz; the Order of the Fiery Heart are fanatical templars of Sigmar, and form the personal guard of the Grand Theogonist; the Knights Griffon were formed by Magnus the Pious in 2305 to protect the Temple to Sigmar in Nuln, but moved to Altdorf after it became the Imperial Capital in 2429.
• Dwarfs built the city walls (which are currently being reinforced, at the order of the Emperor), and are a significant presence at the School of Engineers. Dwarfs fight in their own units rather than being recruited into state regiments – they will often wear uniforms of their own design, and favour Imperial fashions over the sombre clothing of other Dwarfs.
• The Moot is the only province to supply troops directly to the Imperial army at Altdorf. However, Halfling regiments are generally assigned to foraging and provisioning rather than actual fighting. The Halfling Hotpot, invented by master chef Gambo Heartstock and first used against the goblin warlord Grom, was added to the Imperial arsenal at the request of the Emperor and has been used by the army of Altdorf ever since.
p.s. I'm not sure actually if this is the most recent version, but it will do for now. Get commenting!
-
Where did you get all this from?
-
Uh, I wrote it, based on the official background - y'know, books'n stuff. :)
So anyway, does anyone have any comments? Or do I have to post this on the main forum to get anyone to look at it?
-
I like what I see, the format is quite easy to follow and includes alot of useful information.
Just one thing,
Volkmar ‘the Grim’ von Hindenstern who was killed in battle with a northern barbarian leader
I think big Archie is a bit more than a northern barbarian leader! :D
Cheers,
Dante
-
It looks fine.
I think Altdolf should have at least one steam tank, if not more though.
Also, I believe it should have a lot more knightly orders. (Of course, there will be a few main orders but the tall helms sounds wierd).
If you are talking about imperial troops, then Altdolf is big enough to have its own state troops. But for the "imperial" army, then that army should be made of troops from all the states. I remember in the book that if any elector count fails to send troops when the emperor calls for it, that is considered high treason.
So, the imperial army will have troops from all over the empire.
I also think more mention should be made of the mages. Altdolf is home to all the collegues of mages. So, it has the greatest concentration of wizards found anywhere in the empire. This should really be brought up.
Theoratically, if the imperial army is really mastered and called into battle. The mages will definitely be there. This means that there should at least be 8 mages, if not more representing the 8 winds of magic. (If its treason for the counts not to respond, it will equally be treason if any collegue refuses to answer the call to war by the emporor).
Its hard to talk about only altdolf without talking about emperor because right now, the emperor is Karl Franz and he is the elector count of Altdolf.
So, I think that when talking about Altdolf, you have to also talk about the imperial army, imperial palace, etc.
-
Why play an Altdorf army? it seems like they have no limitations...
That's what a theme should do to an armylist, bring limitations and preference of specific units over the other kinds!
-
Aside from the comments on the wizards, which are very apt, I've little to add:
While there is an Engineer School in Altdorf, the main centre for engineer-type-stuff is Nuln. It doesn't make any difference for this article, but would be worth remembering.
Spearmen regiments could easily be represented by half-pikes, as Altdorf is a more cosmopolitan city and is likely to be influenced by Tilea, rather than having the simple spearmen of the northern provinces.
If I have any ideas, I'll mention them.
-
Looks really good, I'm not a great source of knowledge myself, so I couldn't think of anything you should add.
-
While there is an Engineer School in Altdorf, the main centre for engineer-type-stuff is Nuln. It doesn't make any difference for this article, but would be worth remembering.
actually, the Engineering School is in Altdorf. Its the Artillery School that is in Nuln. Some of the fluff also had the Countessa of Nuln trying to start her own Engineering School, but the original one is in Altdorf.
-
Thanks for all the comments so far!
@Dante - no, Archie is just a barbarian with ideas above his station! At least, that's what the propaganda says. :wink:
@Elden - I'm intending to look at the 'journeys of the steam tanks' thing on the GW site to get some idea of which provinces might have been seen with which tanks. As for knights - I think four different orders in one city is quite a lot! I'm sticking to 'official' orders only, and only when they have an established connection to the city/province. Very good points about the Imperial Army and the wizards. :)
@lordmetroid - yes, Altdorf has very few limitations. Some people call it the Imperial version of Clan Skyre!
@Benedictus - I think I mentioned half-pikes under 'Averland'. Perhaps they should be available to Altdorf as well. Queek is right though about the Engineering school. Strictly speaking, the ONLY one is in Altdorf. The only sources that claim a school for Nuln are non-canonical (Bill King novels). I have decided to ignore all the GW novels because: (a) I only have two (b) they are mostly quite bad (c) even GW doesn't generally consider them canon. I am sticking to WFB and WFRP sources (WFRP only where it doesn't conflict with WFB). Oh, and some Mordheim stuff.
Anyway, thanks for all the feedback. Keep in mind, this is just one section out of fourteen (10 provinces, 4 city-states). :)
Finally, if anyone has any ideas or suggestions at all for any province or city please let me know. You can email me if you like!
-
Which is why I have I paint an Altdorf army...
The steam Tanks are created in Altdorf. Hence taking one shouldn't be a problem. Of course I don't think I would take one unless I'm playing 2500-3000 points.
I'm building a full pike legion for my Altdorfers. They are painted Red White Blue and Yellow, so I could always call them recruited Middenlanders if somebody thinks its against the fluff.
-Grutch
-
A quick comment on heraldry (you know I am a sucker for all things heraldic :lol: ):
One version of Altdorf arms ALSO includes a Key, symbolizing Altdorf's preeminent position as the center of the Empire and the key to its heart.
-
I'm building a full pike legion for my Altdorfers. They are painted Red White Blue and Yellow, so I could always call them recruited Middenlanders if somebody thinks its against the fluff.
Actually, I'd be less happy about Middenland Pikemen than Altdorf ones. My prefered 'Pike-friendly' provinces are Averland, Stirland, Wissenland and Nuln (also Marienburg, though it's not in the Empire, and maybe Reikland). You can make some sort of case for Pikes to appear in the other provinces, but not a very strong one.
Imperialforge, could you provide me with a reference on the Altdorf Key? That one seems to have passed me by. :?
-
The opening paragraph was excellent. You got me interested in Karl-Franz, the home to the Great Cathedral of Sigmar, the Colleges of Magic, and the School of Engineers. I wish you has a subsection later in the text that at least gave a paragraph regarding each. Throwing them out in the opening paragraph and then not following up is a horrible trick.
I know it may be insanely tedious, but adding a footnote to the various sources would be very helpful for those of us who would like to pursue further research on our own. You can see how some folks do it here:
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-13090/stories/history.html
Has the city been besieged many times or just twice? You gave two examples. Do more exist?
Rather than using bullet points you may want to consider dividing the various subsections into more intuitive categories. i.e. Heroes, Magic Items, Beasts, Core, Special, Rare, Allies, DOW, etc.
This will be truly helpful. Thank you for doing it.
-
Throwing them out in the opening paragraph and then not following up is a horrible trick.
Sorry about that. :oops:
This is why I need feedback! The trouble with writing something like this is the scale of the task - I have ten provinces and four city-states to cover, plus Sylvania and several towns (Bogenhafen and Carroburg at least). I didn't want to get too bogged down on any one area. You are right though, and I will assuredly sort it out. :wink:
I have already compiled a list of references, and I will list them somewhere at some point. :)
I only found three examples of Altorf being besieged, but I'm sure there were others. Maybe Luther Huss and Valten count as another time?
Bullet points. I don't really like them either, but it was so much easier to do... I'll keep them until I have all the information in place, then see what I can do to make it all flow better. I like your catagories idea.
-
Bogenhafen you say? My army is from Bogenhafen! I know very little about it besides it being a trading town between Helmgart and Altdorf.
I'm already looking forward to that part!
Maybe you could suggest a higher number of Marksmen upgrades because of the Engineer School?
You know, HLRs, RHGs etc.
-
if you need help with knights i made a topic a while ago with lots of info, as far as i know its all official, but take it with a grain of salt, some of my sources were um---- a little oldish and unreliable.
-
I like the artical. A lot more detail than what I could find. do you know anything about hergig?
-
@BAWTRM - I have no end of stuff on Bogenhafen, considering there is a WRFP adventure set there!
@Cavin - I found your thread on knights, thanks for that. I'll need to confirm the athenticity of some of the sources though - I suspect some of it may be fan-made WFRP stuff.
@valten's hammer - There's not very much on Hergig, but what I have will go in to the guide. In the meantime, if you do a search on the boards, I think there have been one or two posts about Hergig and Hochland that you might find useful.
-
Great job! I like the layout, and everything written seemed good.
Well, if you're going to do them in alphabetical order, I suppose Averland would be next, and I'm looking forward to it.
-
Nuts. I was so sure that there was an engineering school at Nuln. :) Ah, well. I've been thoroughly proven wrong there, methinks!
I'm looking forward to seeing some more articles.
-
Nuln has the Imperial Gunnery School, easy to get the two mixed up.
Great stuff Rufus, although it's Gambo Hartstock, not Heartstock. :wink:
-
I did notice one thing in your list though that might be wrong. You say that altorf has no runefang. In one of the WD Where Karl franz gives valten garl maraz he takes the runefang of altorf and uses it. If I am wrong in this let me know. The artical is still great though and I am going to use it to write the fluff for my army.
-
Altdorf is a city-state, not a province. Only provinces have Runefangs.
Karl-Franz is the Elector of the Reikland as well as being Emperor, so he wields the Runefang of Reikland. :)
-
[Argh! There's no edit feature...apologies for double posting.]
Rufus, just for fun, why don't you also do a feature on Sylvania and Marienburg? Neither are really "Empire," per se (Sylvania being a Vampire Count-ridden territory and Marienburg having seceded), but it'd be neat to be able to do a Marienburg-themed army, and it'd also be neat to just have some infomation available on Sylvania.
Just a thought.
-
[Triple, post! I'm really sorry.... If a mod can edit these so they're all in one, I'd appreciate that.]
Don't forget the Imperial Zoo at Altdorf- making Pegasi and Griffons all the better to take in the army.
-
Thank you for pointing that out. My bad.
-
Carroburg! :D
I was just about to do a bit of background investigation into that one, but I was thinking about adding some more self-made stuff into it (background for my army, mounted greatswords, etc.). I'd love to see all the 'facts' about it in one place though.
-
it's Gambo Hartstock, not Heartstock.
Damn it! I need to read more carefully...
Don't forget the Imperial Zoo at Altdorf- making Pegasi and Griffons all the better to take in the army.
Not only did I not forget it, I already mentioned it! :wink:
why don't you also do a feature on Sylvania and Marienburg?
I'm intending to cover Sylvania as a subsection of Stirland. I wasn't planning to cover Marienburg (since it isn't in The Empire), but I might come back to it later.
-
Oh, you did too. And to think I hunted through it to make sure you hadn't before I posted. Dang. :)
-
A yes, the WHFRP adventure. Shadows over Bogenhafen is it not?
I knew of it's existence but I didn't know how much info about their local military was in there.
I was hoping you were in posession of/had acces to this adventure but untill now I restrained myself from badgering you about it. :lol:
-
I'm intending to cover Sylvania as a subsection of Stirland. I wasn't planning to cover Marienburg (since it isn't in The Empire), but I might come back to it later.
I'd be happy to help out with the Sylvanian bit. ;)
I could release it in the layout that I previously suggested, but you could of course modify it to fit into th elayout you eventually choose so it stays consistent with the rest of the pieces.
-
@EC Sylvania - I'm pretty keen to write it myself (I'm a megalomaniac). If you want to send me any notes of what you think should be included, feel free to drop me an email.
@BAWTRM - Shadows over Bogenhafen has a lot of information about how the town is run and so forth, but not much about military matters. This is because WFRP takes an entirely different view on Imperial armies - there are surprisingly few standing armies, and they are mainly based in the city-states. Naturally, such a view does not conform to WFB very well. Whatever I can use from there will go in.
-
Why play an Altdorf army? it seems like they have no limitations...
That's what a theme should do to an armylist, bring limitations and preference of specific units over the other kinds!
I agree with this. I think you should try to put some more limitations in the list.
Stick with state troops and stay away from militia(free companies, archers and crossbowmen), even as detachements. A exception to this could be a small unit of huntsmen, every army has scouts to locate the enemy.
Don't use priests of Ulric. If the emperor let any of those in his army that would result in one angry Grand Theogonist.
If you want to know what magic items Altdorf can use. Look at the Cult of Ulric list. It has a list of all the items that are kept in the Imperial Vaults.
A Altdorf army is in my opinion an army sent out by the Emperor him self. It will consist of the best the Empire has to offer. Flagellants don't fit the role of higly trained disaplined troops. Thay will probably still tag allong as thay join any battle where the Empire fights chaos/undead/etc. Still I don't think thay have a place in an Altdorf army.
Use the old Outrider models and you have another reason to bring more pistolleers :twisted:.
4 Knightly orders is more then enough. I have no idea how many of these orders there are in the Empire. I don't think you will find them around every corner or in every village.
Are there really enough dwarfs in Altdorf to form a good fighting force?
I have no idea about The Moot supplieing troops to Altdorf. However if you read the story about how the hot pot was created(I love that story), I'm not to sure about them being a common sight in the army of Altdorf. Gambo told Karl-Franz, after he asked for the recipe, "I cannot tell you, it'd be a betrayal of every sacred vow in the cookbook"
Finally a friendly warning to anyone that wants to try something like this. Everything can be justified with fluff, don't just think of a reason to add a unit/character/item also think of a reason NOT to included that unit/character/item and then see what side wins. Most people know this, but get carried away when thay start making army list and thinking up the fluff behind this. I know I do.
-
Dang! How did I not discover this post for 10 full days? Well, anyway, it looks like really nice stuff, Rufus. I'm looking forward to seeing the full version.
A Altdorf army is in my opinion an army sent out by the Emperor him self.
I don't believe that you are right. The Imperial Army is one thing; the Army of Altdorf is something else IMHO. The Imperial army is made up of regiments from all over the Realm and commanded ultimately by Karl-Franz himself (we all know this, right?), while Altdorf's army is recruited, paid and trained by the City and led & directed by the burgomeister or a council or whoever is in charge/power. And the City could have an agenda different to the Emperor’s own.
Large elements of the Imperial army would be in Altdorf, naturally, but it would be at the Emperor’s expense. At least that's the way I guess it is.
-
Imperial Scrivener, I've emailed you the article, with my red notes in the margin. Check your email. :happyjoy:
-
Megalomaniac eh, well I've got bits and pieces of stuff along similar lines to your project that I have worked on from time to time myself. My Averland one is largest (though not really that large) if interested let me know and I shall email it to you.
-
Hey S.O.F.,
I'd be very interested to read whatever you have on the provinces. :biggriin:
-
RUFUS- Awesome article!! Thanks!!
I've been painting an Altdorf Army and didn't have much luck finding alot of background.
I hope your work is going good.
I would really like to see those articles when finished.
Thank you again for all your hard work!!
-
Lovely article! When is the next province being done?
Time of Madness
-
The artical is very good,but when can we expect the next instalment? :biggriin:
-
Thanks for all the comments. Really, I am working on this. I'm just very busy! :ohmyy:
-
I got myself the Shadows over Bogenhaffen adventure for 2 Euros at the Elf Fantasy Fair last weekend. Great bargain!
Not much on the army like you said but I guess I can build on the information in the adventure.
The specific merchant families that have survived the adventure (Clearly Chaos didn't win as Bogenhaffen still exists) could very well fund a portion of the army each.
With the nearby castle fullfilling the role of suplier of Knights and such. Of course the ranking noble that holds court there now takes a far more active stance on the control of his fief than the one in the Shadows over Bogenhaffen module. 8)
-
Rufus i've uncovered my copy of WD 147 which has the original, new model, empire army list for third edition with lots of lovely fluff in it. Do you want me to bring a copy to the GT heat 1 for you or do you have it and 148 with the second part of the list.
-
Hey FR1DAY,
No, I don't have WD 147 or 148 (though I did read them once long ago). I'd love to see a copy of that again, so if you could bring it to the GT heat that would be great!
-
I'd just like to announce that, at long last, the guide is finished! I have sent it to the mightly Grutch, so expect to see it sometime soon. :-D
-
w00t!!
(sorry had to make a happy sound here)
Great news Rufus, has anybody else except you contributed (proofreading etc.)?
-
Actually, yes. S.O.F. sent me some of his ideas on theme, which I made use of. General Helstrom and Benedictus proofread the first half-draft quite a long time ago, and had some excellent suggestions.
Since then though I re-wrote the whole thing from scratch in a different style that I like much more. No one has proofread this version ( :shock: ) so it might have the odd stupid error in it. Or a whole lot of stupid errors.
I'm intending to revise the whole thing once the storm of chaos is over, to take into account the new fluff.
I hope no one is disappointed when they finally read it. :ph34r:
-
It is eagerly awaited as all your work Rufie, looking forward to reading it.
-
Rufus,
I sent an email to you because I have not recieved this guide. I'd like to get working on it this weekend.
-Grutch
-
Really? I did send it to you. I don't have access to my email right now, nor the guide, and I won't until monday. However, Atchman has it, so you should be able to get him to send it to you.
edit: do have it with me, sent to the email address in your profile.
-
Grutch,
Have you received the guide? It seems like none of my emails actually reach you. :?
-
locking this one too!
-Grutch