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Author Topic: How does one rise to divinity?  (Read 4598 times)

Offline Sir Paradus Hithili

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How does one rise to divinity?
« on: May 03, 2008, 07:38:05 AM »
As it follows Sigmar is the only man ever to rise to divinity but is it possible that it can happen again. Even though Valten Died(Dam you GW :icon_evil:) I saw it as a possiblity that he could one day rise to divinty. And if it can be done who do you nthink would have the best change of achieving it?
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Offline scarletsquig

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2008, 07:52:22 AM »
Chaos worship is generally your best ticket in the warhammer world.

Offline Johan Willhelm

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2008, 09:16:39 AM »
Slip the Church of Sigmar 100GC  :happy:
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Offline Midaski

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2008, 09:36:46 AM »
As it follows Sigmar is the only man ever to rise to divinity but is it possible that it can happen again ..........

I'm hoping it will .....................

 :engel:
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Offline Spiney

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2008, 09:44:53 AM »
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As it follows Sigmar is the only man ever to rise to divinity but is it possible that it can happen again.
while thats technically true (since Myrmidia was a woman), he's not the only human to ascend to godhood. The Empire views Myrmidia as a mortal hero who was elevated to godhood, although I think the cult itself propagates that she was the daughter of Morr and Verena, just raised by humans. She is worshipped in Tilea and Eastalia as a regional god, much the same as Sigmar is in the Empire or the Lady of the Lake in Bretonnia.

Its only very special heroes that get elevated, theres no way Valten counts as he was cut down at his first major engagement, some "chosen of sigmar" he was...

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Offline Alexander de Wissont

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2008, 09:58:56 AM »
As it follows Sigmar is the only man ever to rise to divinity but is it possible that it can happen again ..........

I'm hoping it will .....................

 :engel:
For you, it's not enough that Mathi adores you as a saint? :happy:
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Offline Midaski

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2008, 10:21:12 AM »
For you, it's not enough that Mathi adores you as a saint? :happy:

...... but someone has to start the process off ..........
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Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

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Offline Slow Painter

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2008, 10:58:07 AM »
Wasn't Valten not a hero because of his own strengths, but through the power of Sigmar?
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2008, 11:17:44 AM »
Valten never existed.

Ranald is also said to have been a human who became a god (by somehow tricking Shallya).
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Offline Spiney

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2008, 01:36:08 PM »
Wasn't Valten not a hero because of his own strengths, but through the power of Sigmar?
Nah, he was just nifty with a warhammer, its apparently common practice in the Empire to declare someone Sigmar reborn whenever you come across a person whose good at fighting...

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Offline FVC

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2008, 02:02:39 PM »
As it follows Sigmar is the only man ever to rise to divinity but is it possible that it can happen again.

Sure. Step one - die. Step two - get lots of people to worship you. Step three - appropriate the ripples of Aethyric energy resulting from said worshipping, incorporate them into your own being. Bad-a-bing, bad-a-boom, you're a god.

Well, it's harder than that. Only an extremely special person could do it, and it would take no small amount of luck. Simple worship isn't enough - it requires specific emotional content, and finding a niche could be difficult. Existing gods already snap up most of what goes into the Aethyr. You'd need to find an angle (i.e. what you're going to be god of - Sigmar went for unity, human pride, strength, and ingenuity, and so on. You couldn't use that again, because Sigmar's already got it. And so on if you wanted to be god of anger and rage, Khorne got there first, or if you want to be god of death, Morr's already there, etc.) and play that up. You would also need extraordinary willpower to be able to draw all this into yourself, fend off the predations of other gods, and maintain control over all this amalgamated energy.

That's one of the tricky things about being a god. It's not like being a mortal. As a mortal, you pretty much have free will. A god, though, is literally made of emotion. By its very nature a god will be affected in certain ways because of that. A god of anger, like Khorne, will change to match that - and so Khorne is permanently enraged. Similar gods will flow together, and the boundaries between different deities are unclear. For example, if you were Taal, you would have to acknowledge that you are also simultaneously Rhya, and yet Rhya is different to you. Or take the Lady of the Lake. Some think she is an aspect of Isha, or an aspect of Torothal, or Torothal or Isha or both are aspects of the Lady, and then there are theories that Rhya is an aspect of Isha (or vice versa) (specifically, Liber Undivided suggests that Isha, Rhya, and the Lady are all part of the same gestalt), and then others think the Lady is an aspect of Myrmidia or Myrmidia aspects the Lady (Tome of Salvation suggests this), and so on. For a god, something as basic as identity can be quite fluid. Are the Lady, Isha, Rhya, Torothal, and Myrmidia five different goddesses? Are they only one seen from different angles? Are they ten goddesses, labelled in bunches? They're a big, squishy, fluid mass of Aethyric energy, and picking out where one ends and another begins can be difficult. And then you add in that, for example, Torothal can't be purely part of the Lady but is also linked to Manann, who is in turn connected to Taal, and Taal is strongly linked to Ulric (as his brother; though familial relationships in this respect are but mortal metaphors that can be used to denote strong Aethyric connections between gods), and so on down that path, it grows even more complicated. Take it far enough and you might think all the gods are the same, to the extent that, from the proper perspective, Tzeentch is Nurgle, and so with all gods.

So, suppose you're Sigmar, this is a problem. Sigmar has some overlap with gods such as Ulric (battle, strength), Tor (much the same as Ulric) Verena (justice, law), Ranald (defiance of fate), Asuryan (kingship, ruling), some of the dwarf Ancestor gods (if they're real gods, which is in doubt; we can be more certain about the gods of humanity and elfkind, but the dwarfs are more of a mystery), and so on. How can Sigmar's mortal soul retain a coherent self-identity in the midst of these other influences?

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And if it can be done who do you nthink would have the best change of achieving it?

No one alive. Not a single person alive in the Warhammer World has the qualities needed. People capable of becoming gods are extremely rare. We're talking one person every thousand years or so, and even then, most fail. Sigmar was a very remarkable person, which is, incidentally, why Heldenhammer portrayed him so poorly.

Offline Alexander de Wissont

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2008, 02:07:20 PM »
I haven't read Heldenhammer. Is it so bad?
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Offline Lord Etharion

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2008, 02:22:55 AM »
Sigmar has some overlap with gods such as .... Asuryan (kingship, ruling), some of the dwarf Ancestor gods

I tend to think that different races' gods don't really overlap, as their thought and emotional processes are so different: Khaine is the Khorne of the Elves, Gork of the Khorne of the orks, etc, but they exist as separate beings, and can oppose one another. This is probably at least in part because I was a 40k enthusiasast before a 40k one, and the differences between races are much more strongly emphasized in 40k fluff.


Valten never existed. Bah, Humbug!

Fixed that for you.
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Offline FVC

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2008, 09:56:15 AM »
I tend to think that different races' gods don't really overlap, as their thought and emotional processes are so different: Khaine is the Khorne of the Elves, Gork of the Khorne of the orks, etc, but they exist as separate beings, and can oppose one another.

You mention you're a 40k fan. That's good.

I submit the Eldar for consideration. Two especial points leap to mind - firstly, Slaanesh was created by the Eldar, from the Eldar psyche specifically. Yet Slaanesh has great power over humans as well. Secondly, during the Fall, Khorne and Slaanesh fought over the scraps of Khaine, demonstrating that the racially diverse Chaos gods possess links to the racially specific Eldar gods.

Returning to Warhammer Fantasy, I have no problems with the idea that different aspects may exist. Isha, Rhya, whatever, may be different personifications and possess superficially different qualities. I have difficulties with the idea that they are all completely distinct entities, though, and don't overlap at all.

Offline Lord Etharion

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2008, 04:22:22 AM »
Okay, good point on Slaanesh, but I guess that it's just that Eldar and Human are similar in that aspect of their psyche.

I hadn't read that Khorne fought Slaanesh, after all, neither of them got him. Khaine still exists as a seperate (yet much diminished) entity. And he really is seperate, since he effectively only exists in the isolated psychic space of the infinity curcuit(s). Whatever psychic gestalt khorne is/dominates/is part of, Khaine has no part of.

I see what you mean when it comes to fantasy though. But the distinction between 'aspects' and seperate deities is pretty semantic, especially if you accept that the aspects can operate at cross purposes to one another.
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Offline Caiaphus

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2008, 09:10:34 AM »
As far as I understand it, when a person in the Warhammer world dies, there 'soul' goes into the Ether. Or, afterlife if you will. The Ether is essentially a place of chaos, so daemons roam free, and any 'spare' souls there are, quickly find themselves eaten by these marauding daemons.

However, a god of the Warhammer world will reward worship, with protection from these daemons. The gods are born from worship. If something is worshiped enough, then its essence will rise to divinity. (if it has not already been devoured by above mentioned daemons)

I suppose, because Sigmar had such a strong will, he could withstand these daemons long enough for the people of the Empire to give him enough 'worship' to solidify him into a being too large for the daemons to destroy. The more he is worshiped, the more powerful he becomes.

So, in short you must have a mind strong enough to withstand the hungry daemons, and have enough people willing to worship you.

I explained all this to my friend, and he insisted that he could know wish the Master Chief into godhood, and he would be assured a peaceful afterlife, because the only worship you could give Spartan 117 is playing Halo...not a bad idea really.... :icon_biggrin:
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Offline Rufas the Eccentric

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2008, 06:35:11 PM »
Ranald is also said to have been a human who became a god (by somehow tricking Shallya).
I bet this was her reaction:
Quote
But, as I just realized in bed last night, I was cheated!


As it follows Sigmar is the only man ever to rise to divinity but is it possible that it can happen again ..........
I'm hoping it will .....................
 :engel:
This is the problem.  It is the quest for divinity that leads arrogant fools down the path to chaos.  I believe that a prerequisite to obtaining divinity is not wishing for it in the first place.

Now if you will excuse me but I finally have the goods on Midaski and must arrange his execution using only the highest quality Nordland timbers.  ::heretic::

FVC:  I must compliment you on you outstanding contribution to religious academia, but you clearly know more than is good for you so you must be burned as well.  ::heretic::
Sigmar on a sling, the stuff some people come up with. . . .

Offline McKnight

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2008, 06:51:53 PM »
As it follows Sigmar is the only man ever to rise to divinity but is it possible that it can happen again ..........
I'm hoping it will .....................
 :engel:
This is the problem.  It is the quest for divinity that leads arrogant fools down the path to chaos.  I believe that a prerequisite to obtaining divinity is not wishing for it in the first place.

Now if you will excuse me but I finally have the goods on Midaski and must arrange his execution using only the highest quality Nordland timbers.  ::heretic::

*Quitely steps back.*
You're on your own Rufas... I'll be at Arnie's if you need me to carry your sorry body back to the 'nacle :-D
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Offline FVC

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2008, 09:50:44 AM »
FVC:  I must compliment you on you outstanding contribution to religious academia, but you clearly know more than is good for you so you must be burned as well.  ::heretic::

You read it. You know what I said. It's in your brain now! You must burn yourself to free yourself of the taint!

Offline Rufas the Eccentric

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Re: How does one rise to divinity?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2008, 04:18:43 PM »
I was at Madame Rosalita's and pretty well sloshed at the time, so no, I can't remember a word of it.  :::cheers:::
Sigmar on a sling, the stuff some people come up with. . . .