Topic: Submission to the High Elves

[CaptScott]

(Posting this here rather than clogging up the foreign ministry thread)

I was going to post the following with the High Elves over at Asur.org, but I wanted to see what the rest of this site thought before I did so (particularly those who are actively involved in alliance discussions).

I will post it tomorrow morning (Sunday) if people approve, or not if this site doesn't aggree.  Please post any comments/thoughts/adjustments.


Re: Asur and Empire Alliance

Greetings, Citizens of Ulthuan. 

We beseech the wise and learned Asur to consider the following in regards to a proposed alliance between our two great nations. 

Firstly let us assure you that our most glorious Emperor Karl Franz is not opposed to the destruction of the Nemesis Crown.  The Empire only wishes to study the artefact in order to determine if such an item can be used for the good of all true and just races of the Old World, and if the item is deemed to be corrupting or evil in its nature, we will gladly ensure its destruction.  And who would be better to aid us in such an undertaking than the Asur.

To this end we ask the Asur to aid us in finding this item and studying it, rather than impulsively demanding its destruction.  Should not the study of such a powerful artefact be the wishes of the Asur, as opposed to its impulsive destruction?  The Asur are known as a learned and just civilisation, favouring study and contemplation over rash and unconsidered actions.  Surely it is more the characteristic of a dwarf to shun and destroy what is new and powerful, rather than study it.

It is for this reason that we find your allegiance with the Dwarves in this matter confusing.  The dwarves are a race stagnating in tradition and shunning any form of advancement, favouring destruction over contemplation.  Will the Asur really act in such a fashion?  Should we remind you that one of the first races the Dwarves were allied with were the barbaric Ogre Kingdoms of the east.  These creatures are known for their impulsiveness and vile temperament, preferring to destroy and devour without any consideration of their actions.  It is then surprising that the dwarves then ask you to be their allies, do they expect the noble Asur to act in the fashion of ogres, blindly demanding that you bow to their will, and act rashly and impulsively to fulfil their wishes?

Once again we beseech you to reconsider our alliance.  Together we can represent a force of logic and reason.  Together we can unlock the mysteries of the Nemesis Crown and use it for betterment for all those that are just and good in Old World.  And if the item is found to be evil or corrupting in its nature, together we can ensure its complete destruction. 

It is a simple choice and there is still time to make it.  Do you favour rash and impulsive destruction, or study, contemplation and understanding?

We shall await your reply.

Your friends, the Citizens of the Empire.


Well, shall I post or not?

[Schmeag]

Interesting and very challenging. However, there are a few points that they might dispute. I am in no way affiliated with the High Elves, but this is just what I think that they might say:

- Using it in the first place might damn the user already and the risk may not be worth it.
- Perhaps it is too dangerous to let it fall into the hands of the Emperor and his lackeys.
- The High Elves already know it is evil and do not need to prove that it is evil, hence this need to test it will be pointless.

Here is what I think:
- The High Elves will in all likelihood, as admitted by one member, not be able to destroy the Crown. That, I think, is a duty left to the Lizardmen. Instead, the best they can do after that is hide it.

They have discussed it quite extensively though, and you'll probably hear comments regarding that.

[Tostig]

I would mention the following as well:

• The hypocrisy of accusing us of being a weak race tainted by chaos, when every year it is our coasts who are raided by their dark brethren. Besides, isn't it true that Malekith, now merrily known as the Witch King, was a personal friend of Snorri Whitebeard? Good too see what noble allies the Dwarfs and the Elves make!
• The War of the Beard. Forgotten that in their arrogance? They're treating us even more unjustly than the Dwarf ambassadors - except we have no beards to shave, and so instead they march to war against us.
• Which race was it that was arrogant and corrupt enough to forge the crown? Surely not the one the Oh So noble elves are allied to?
• How that same race, their allies, has now approached everyone right down to the Vampire Counts, but not their allies since the time that Sigmar Heldenhammer was instrumental in wiping Orcs out of the west for them?
• That if, say, a large Brettonian force dressed for war landed in Lothern, refused to say its intentions or give way to your men and them proceeded to march through your lands, you too would have to admit that it would be an act of war.
• The hypocrisy of making out that the Empire is a weak race on the side of Chaos. Who was the first to answer Kislev's beck and call to defend them from Asavar Kul's invasion, even without magic (due to the arrogance of the Elves)? Even the beards arrived before them, and they only have movement 3! Whose lands were ravaged during the last invasion? What is the Curse of Aenarion anyway? Surely such a thing couldn't happen so a race as arrogant noble as the Elves?
• Why is it that the Elves are happy using the human realms of Kislev and the Empire as a sandbox in which hundreds upon thousands of men, women and innocents can be slaughtered by chaos and their allied scum? Rather than help us as much as possible, they instead mock and deride us. "Oh, we could teach you the ways of super duper magic that could save an unknown number of families and farmsteads. But I'm afraid you aren't pretty enough. *yawn* Next please!"
• Why is it that everyone assumes the Franz is out for the crown for personal goal? You're forgetting that the Dwarfs planted this token of chaos in our land, without our permission, then bought both their own armies and an Orc invasion upon us. We have vaults in the College of Light it can be kept in, and otherwise a Council of the Light can be called. Like last time, remember, when chaos overran half of our Empire? When it was Karl Franz who organised and bought together the opposition to it? Must have slipped your memory. Too busy baking elf-brownies.

Worse than Orcs. At least an Orc doesn't pretend to be doing what's best for you. I say we let them burn.

[Schmeag]

Eh? That was the most undiplomatic post ever, and it shouldn't ever see the light of day on Asur.org.uk if you want an alliance with the High Elves. Of course, it is evident that you do not wish for one. Last I heard they were divided 60% Dwarfs/40% Men, although not being a High Elf player, I am not quite sure whether this has changed. Undoubtedly, Stormbrow II can fill you in on the details should you wish for some advance warning.

Now, to address some of the issues:

The hypocrisy of accusing us of being a weak race tainted by chaos, when every year it is our coasts who are raided by their dark brethren.

The Dark Elves are not tainted by Chaos in the way that Men are. I don't think they're even tainted by Chaos.

How that same race, their allies, has now approached everyone right down to the Vampire Counts, but not their allies since the time that Sigmar Heldenhammer was instrumental in wiping Orcs out of the west for them?

For most, the natural answer seems to be to blame Games Workshop.

The hypocrisy of making out that the Empire is a weak race on the side of Chaos. Who was the first to answer Kislev's beck and call to defend them from Asavar Kul's invasion, even without magic (due to the arrogance of the Elves)? Even the beards arrived before them, and they only have movement 3! Whose lands were ravaged during the last invasion? What is the Curse of Aenarion anyway? Surely such a thing couldn't happen so a race as arrogant noble as the Elves?

I believe you'll find that the lands of Men provide the bulk of conversions to Chaos. The Empire itself is not on the side of Chaos--anyone who says that has gone bonkers--but the High Elves, and indeed, all elves, are much more resistant to the influence of Chaos than Men. It is this that they are probably referring to.

We have vaults in the College of Light it can be kept in

That may be a little unsafe. Most of them wouldn't trust the Empire to keep it, a dangerous artefact that it is. Many would prefer to destroy it instead. Of course, whether they can do that is another issue entirely.

Apart from that, the other points may hold some weight, although they've been put forward before, even if in a different context (they approached the Wood Elves ). Hope this helps.

Schmeag

[Tostig]

That was the most undiplomatic post ever, and it shouldn't ever see the light of day on Asur.org.uk if you want an alliance with the High Elves.

Who, me? Never 

The truth of the matter is that from our perspective the High Elves seem quite happy to have an unfluffy alliance with the Dwarfs. Fortunately for us I suspect, and hope, that such alliances won't hold as much weight game-mechanics wise as the people at Bugman's seem to believe.  I'd love for the Elves to be a neutral force between the Dwarfs and us, but as usual we don't get that luxury. Besides, if by winning this campaign we're going to become a more morally dubious army, I think we might portray the slip to chaos very sympathetically, don't you? Allies turning against us, constant disrespect. Conceitedness from those who could help. A usual say in the life of the Empire.

p128 of the BRB seems to make it abundantly clear that "there was a taint in Malekith" and that the Dark Elves, "their souls poisoned" by their leader and his jealousy. It also says "Malekith and his Dark Elves had unwittingly destroyed any hope the world may have had of resisting chaos." Sounds pretty much like being corrupted by Chaos to me, doesn't it?

For most, the natural answer seems to be to blame Games Workshop. Wink

Aye. Blame GW for which evil races the people at Bugman's decide to approach 

all elves, are much more resistant to the influence of Chaos than Men.

So rather than educate men, and train them to better resist the lure of chaos, the High Elves would rather remain aloof and uncaring - a very charitable way of doing things, you must admit. Perhaps their hearts just haven't been in the fight against chaos since Malekith stopped resisting Chaos and their homelands were ravaged by the Sundering?

That may be a little unsafe.

Oh? The college was founded by Teclis, so it's as safe as anything the Elves can do. In fact it's safer, as it only uses one of the winds of chaos. It even exists in a space parallel to but separate from the mundane world:
"Deep in the darkest dungeons of the College, protected by many twisting tunnels, traps and magical fields, lies the greatest magical treasure vault in the Old World. Created by Teclis after the Great War against Chaos, it serves as a repository and prison for many of the evil artefacts and luminous beings of power captured during that conflict. It is the sacred duty of the Guardians of Light, an arcane society to which only the most powerful Wizards of the Order belong, to keep these evils locked away from the world."
See, tighter than a Dwarf's purse strings.

We'd like to see it destroyed. Well, that's a lie. We'd rather see it never have been made, never have cursed our lands. Never to have soiled our oaths of friendship with the Dwarfs. But then again we had no choice over the matter, and somehow I doubt we'll be allowed to write the end-fluff rather than GW, will we?

[FVC]

Tostig's points are good. They could be phrased more diplomatically, but they're generally true. If they bring up the corruptibility of men, the diplomatic thing would not be to point out Malekith but to emphasise the many men of the Empire who have given their lives to defeat Chaos and the trust the great Teclis placed in them during the Great War. Appealing to their sense of logic is also a good idea, pointing out that taking the contemplative and rational approach to the Crown is better.

[Schmeag]

So rather than educate men, and train them to better resist the lure of chaos, the High Elves would rather remain aloof and uncaring - a very charitable way of doing things, you must admit. Perhaps their hearts just haven't been in the fight against chaos since Malekith stopped resisting Chaos and their homelands were ravaged by the Sundering?

You've got to admit that elves are arrogant though, as you so rightly said. Those against the alliance between Men and the High Elves could portray you guys as mere upstarts that have only understanding for the near future and not the far future. Those that support the alliance with Men would probably sympathise with the Empire on those lines, though.

p128 of the BRB seems to make it abundantly clear that "there was a taint in Malekith" and that the Dark Elves, "their souls poisoned" by their leader and his jealousy. It also says "Malekith and his Dark Elves had unwittingly destroyed any hope the world may have had of resisting chaos." Sounds pretty much like being corrupted by Chaos to me, doesn't it?

Personally, I think it could be viewed in various ways. Elves are certainly not immune to corruption, but I would think that it is the Curse of Aenarion that made them turn out the way that they are now. Malekith himself may have been tainted, but with the "souls poisoned" part, that would seem to just refer to them being deceived/led by Malekith away from the ways of the High Elves. Their own debased acts would be a product of their adaptation to the Curse of Aenarion as opposed to direct corruption from Chaos. However, about Malekith destroying hope, it would be referring to the fact that they pretty much split the elves up quite neatly; after the Sundering, the power of the High Elves waned, what with the Dark Elves leaving and constantly harrassing those on Ulthuan. The elves were the last hope of saving mankind (that's how I've read it, anyway), and the separation pretty much stuffed them up for good.

Oh? The college was founded by Teclis, so it's as safe as anything the Elves can do. In fact it's safer, as it only uses one of the winds of chaos. It even exists in a space parallel to but separate from the mundane world:
"Deep in the darkest dungeons of the College, protected by many twisting tunnels, traps and magical fields, lies the greatest magical treasure vault in the Old World. Created by Teclis after the Great War against Chaos, it serves as a repository and prison for many of the evil artefacts and luminous beings of power captured during that conflict. It is the sacred duty of the Guardians of Light, an arcane society to which only the most powerful Wizards of the Order belong, to keep these evils locked away from the world."
See, tighter than a Dwarf's purse strings.

I agree entirely with you. However, the safest thing to do would be to rid the world of its existence as opposed to keeping it somewhere. If the High Elves or Dwarfs were to just store it away, I think that they would lose a lot of support.

[CaptScott]

Thanks for your replies.

I do like some of Tostigs points (reference to the war of the beard was in my original version) but as Schmeag and FCV have said they are a little to 'undiplomatic' (it would be fun to post them though and see their reaction  ).  The main reason behind the post is to suggest to the high elves that it would be more in character with their race to study the crown rather than just destroy it out right, and that this may best be achieved through an alliance between our races.

In all likelihood I will post it tomorrow.  (some may find it a little pedantic that I posted it here first, but I believe in a unified approach in regards to alliances.  As has happened sometimes on other forums an Empire general has posted his two-cents only to be met with others replying that 'this person does not represent the Empire', which kind of destroys any argument presented. I just didn't want that to happen in this case)

Back to the discussion

The Dark Elves are not tainted by Chaos in the way that Men are. I don't think they're even tainted by Chaos.

Didn't the decadant ways of the elves (as still followed by the dark elves) create Slaanesh?  More like Chaos being tainted by the elves!

I agree entirely with you. However, the safest thing to do would be to rid the world of its existence as opposed to keeping it somewhere. If the High Elves or Dwarfs were to just store it away, I think that they would lose a lot of support

How about we just give it to a race whose armies are so weak that they couldn't do any damage even with the power of the Crown, such as the goblins, gnoblars or High Elves. 

Note: to any HE reading, the above was in reference to the the weakness of the HE army book, not the high elves in general ... really ... 

[FVC]

Didn't the decadant ways of the elves (as still followed by the dark elves) create Slaanesh?

Only if you're playing 40k.

In Fantasy, the cult of Slaanesh was what gave Malekith an excuse to run around Ulthuan and burn his political enemies at the stake for being witches (but oddly enough not his mother, despite her rather... intimate connections with Slaanesh), so Slaanesh played a major role in the Dark Elves appearing and all that unpleasantness happening, but they didn't create Slaanesh.

[Aquilifer]

No the (now Dark) Elves didn't create Slaanesh. However, they do worship it now. So, at least from the High Elf perspective (mine), they are Chaos-scum.

As for the nature of this thread, sounds good. With the campaign still several weeks away, there is still time for talks. I'm not sure if you'll get anywhere because we simply won't except Karl-boy using the crown. That's just not going to happen. But you might be able to get serious discussion over "Non-Aggression Treaties" or something a bit stronger (I've been advocating for that for a couple of weeks now, but debate has died down). As for those "undiplomatic" points that were made earlier. While, admittedly some of those points are true, if you want to even begin discussion, don't mention them! We don't exactly like humans who have the insolence to speak to us that way  No I'm serious, you won't get anywhere. Even an Empire-friendly HE player like myself would throw your ambassadors out.

As for where we would keep it if we couldn't destroy it. Not the Colleges of Magic. We don't really want it under Karaz-a-Karak either. We want in the Tower of Hoeth. Thats the safest place for anything magic. And we are talking with the Lizzies about destroying it also.

Let me just say that almost none of the HE players on Asur.org.uk hate the Empire. That you are a weaker race, there is no doubt. That elven minds see you as too easily manipulated, yes. But the alliance still holds in many of our minds. Its the way the campaign works thats hard. You can't really ally with anyone, it won't really be beneficial - everyone is on their own basically. And apparently we have been told that we cannot ally with both Dwarves and Men (I tried that... a lot of people liked it, then we were told we can't by GW). So they think that at least with the Dwarves it will be a safer deal than with the Empire. I disagree, but its you guys who have to make the effort.
If you do try again, good luck. You might not get anywhere, but cool points for trying

[wissenlander]

It's worth a shot, posting it.  At least we can say we exhausted all efforts.  At the same time, we can't go in with an arrogant tone.  I skimmed your proposal Capt. Scott and it looks good.  I think at this point all we can hope for is minimal blood shed between the good races.

Aquilifer can you explain (if you know) about what GW said, picking one side over the other?  Is this in fluff terms?  I cant see anyone being able to support another faction outside of fluff.

[Aquilifer]

During our discussion (basically mine and stormbrows) over an Alliance with both the Empire and the Dwarves, our mod said that they'd been in touch with GW or something like that and that we aren't allowed to do it. I didn't really understand it but it was the hammer-fall to the debate. Thus we are now allied to the Dwarves. But please, try for an NAP! It hurts me how unfluffy this is! Here are the threads concerning alliances:
http://www.asur.org.uk/ulthuan/viewtopic.php?t=21255 This is the one where we first talk about an alliance with the Empire

http://www.asur.org.uk/ulthuan/viewtopic.php?t=21284 Here's my thread about the double alliance. TimmyWMD's (our excellent mod) post is the fourth one. Wissenlander, you were in on this thread. The thought kinda just died after that.

http://www.asur.org.uk/ulthuan/viewtopic.php?t=21069 Here is the thread you guys first started about an alliance. I don't think we responded very well to it. But it picked up again about the second page in and a month later. Its here that the definitive answer that we are allied to the Dawi was posted by Giladis. As of just a few minutes ago, I got a (possibly) hopeful answer about an NAP or something. 

[Wyzer1]

If you havn't already, read the High Elf paragraphs in the BRB. It states a couple times that HE has come to help the Empire

I cant remember the exact wording but that is pretty decent grounds

As for the dwarves, like I stated earlier I am convinced bugmans brewery has been tainted by chaos (aka chaos dwarves). I wont hold there actions against real dwarves

In all honesty I agree whole-heartely with what Tostig said. Do the dainty elves honestly believe they would still exist without us? Without the Empire the world would already be overun with either greenskins or be destroyed by chaos by now

If they come around and admit the error of there ways, sure what the heck.

I saw if we ask them for help, dont offer anything. Highlight the points Tostig said, and say help us or leave us alone, Thats my opinion for the elves

[Jerok]

I'm locking this thread for now due to 2 reasons.

1. I need time to read through it

2. We have already spoken with the Elves of Asur.org and I need to confer with my Ambassadors

On that note, thank you for trying to help Cpt. Scott, but believe me, we've already gone to most if not all sites.