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Author Topic: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad  (Read 21515 times)

Offline Ambrose

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8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« on: April 19, 2011, 03:05:26 PM »
Greetings all,

I'm wondering what people feel of the detachment system for 8th edition.  I've read several of the forum posts and get the feeling that the Detachment system isn't worth taking in 8th.

I'm currently working on an army list for a friendly tournament in May, and can see the benifit of the detachment system on paper, but would like to hear what experienced Generals have to say.

In regards to my army list, I plan to have 40 halberders with a detachment of 20 swordsmen and 20 handgunners.  I feel the stand and shoot and charges in the sub-movement phases should work really well.

Please let me know what you feel are the strengths (if any) or weaknesses (if any) of the Detatchment system in 8th edition.

Ambrose
"Faith, Steel and Gunpowder"

Offline Evan

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2011, 03:27:40 PM »
Detachments would be worth taking for me if:

1) If they negated steadfast if the had at least 2 ranks of 5 models on the flanks.

2) They counted towards core points. Currently, the are just empty points.

3) Parent units also benefited from the Detachment rules if their detachments were charged. Its too easy for the enemy to either charge a detachment and give the Empire player the option of fleeing or being slaughtered in combat and the enemy ending up facing your parent unit anyway. If the parent unit could also counter-charge, this would be very useful and make it a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for your enemy. Perhaps this wouldn't be balanced if it were given in conjunction with rule change #1 above.

Offline polybus11

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2011, 04:24:00 PM »
The major reason I can't bring myself to take detatchments other than 25 pt redirection units, is that they don't count for core points.  Since empire core sucks and will melt if they get into combat with pretty much anything, you want to minimise your core/state troops.  Too bad knights and bs shooting are a bit lame too.  Flagellants as core helps in this regard. 

I wouldn't mind taking those 25 pt groups of 5 though to speedbump or angle things (especially frenzied things) away from your main line.

Offline Rightnow

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 05:12:23 PM »
I'm not using them. I may try a 25 point redirection unit, but the points are probably better spent elsewhere. Even though a new Empire rulebook is likely years off, fixing the detachment system should be a the top of the list. It is one of the features that used to make the Empire unique.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2011, 05:30:07 PM »
Why are detachments not being counted towards core points?

And why cna they no longer counter charge?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding some things.
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Offline GenOmar

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2011, 05:36:24 PM »
I've only run detachments in smaller games <1200, or "war bands" otherwise they just aren't worth it.  use the pts to beef up your big blocks, that's where the battle is won anyway.
Why are detachments not being counted towards core points?

And why cna they no longer counter charge?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding some things.
detachment NEVER counted towards an armies Core pts - they are an extention of their parent units only.
they can counter charge if their parent unit is charged, however most smart oppoents will charge the detachment, route them then reform against the parent unit's flank (this not a good use of the detachment BTB)
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2011, 05:46:15 PM »
Yep, under 7th they were just part of the unit.  So under 8th, why can't they be added in with the points of the parent unit as part of the % for core that is needed?

If I set the detachment further back than the parent unit, then perhaps the charge won't reach it?

And what about using archer in skirmish formation to screen the parent unit, is this something that can still work?
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

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Offline galrion

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2011, 05:54:45 PM »
Yep, under 7th they were just part of the unit.  So under 8th, why can't they be added in with the points of the parent unit as part of the % for core that is needed?

If I set the detachment further back than the parent unit, then perhaps the charge won't reach it?

And what about using archer in skirmish formation to screen the parent unit, is this something that can still work?

The Empire rulebook specifically states that detachments do not count towards core.  GW did not errata that, which I think they should. 

Point 2 I'm not too sure about.  You'd have to have your unit set pretty far back.  I'm no mathhammer wizard so I can't give you the optimal distance back, but I would think you could do so. 

An archer screen could be helpful, especially if they're a detachment since when they break and run, they won't be causing panic.  OTOH, one detachment as an archer screen with a second HtH detachment might work.  Screen flees instead of standing and shooting.  Failed charge on the enemy's part (hopefully), and your parent unit charges on your turn with your other detachment doing a supporting charge.  As soon as I get my board assembled and my friends assemble their models I'll try it out.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2011, 06:04:40 PM »
I can't easily put my hands on an Empire army book, yet I'm fairly certain the language talks about the detachment counting towards number of core units and doesn't say anything about counting towards a % number of points towards core.  Plus, the % system didn't exist when the current Empire army book was released.  But I am now curious as to the exact wording in the army book and how it might or might not relate to counting towards the 8th edition % of core.
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"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

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Offline tcklein

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 06:10:52 PM »
The main rulebook specifies that units that don't count towards core requirements in the previous Force Org don't count towards core %.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 06:16:49 PM »
Ah, well that could certainly explain it.  What page of the main rule book is that on?
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"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

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Offline tcklein

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 06:35:08 PM »
Page 134, right hand column, second paragraph under the heading "Core Units."

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 07:39:54 PM »
Page 38 AB:
second bullet under Detachements:
Quote
Detachments do not count towards the
minimum number of Core Troops choices

in conjunction with:

Page 134 BRB:
second paragraph under CORE UNITS
Quote
Some core units do not count towards the
minimum points you must spend on Core units
(sometimes written as 'do not count towards the
minimum number of Core units you must
include' or variations thereof) or indeed the
minimum number of units you must include in
your army. In fact, such units don't count towards
any category, just the points value of the army.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Offline Joelatron

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 07:56:38 PM »
For every horde of halberds (50 incl w.priest) I bring a detachment of 5 free company. The 5 free company  give me so much tactical flexibility as they march forward, set up bait traps, lure frenzied troops (I'm looking @ you korn warriors), release fanatics, jump on mangler squigs.

+ I found that 5 free company will usually beat 5 wolf riders/WoC hounds/equivalent unit even if the free company get charged, and if they charge a pump wagon they can easily take one out/hold it up for a supporting flank charge.

So in essence 5 free company = awesome chaff

Offline abdulaapocolyps

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2011, 08:05:03 PM »
I find all this fascinating!

  I'm just building my army and my first thought was that detachments would be awesome, but now im not so sure.  I'm very interested in all the tips etc and am now thinking I will take a small group as a detachment.  I think I'll get miniatures and paint them as if they are criminals, made to walk out in sacrifice!

 

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2011, 08:15:47 PM »
Now I'm wondering what the rational is under 8th for not having detachments count as part of the points for core?  Its part of a core unit, so of course it wouldn't count as a core unit by itself, but not counting it as part of the percentage seems poor.  Besides what does it count as then?  Its not part of special nor rare.  So it just hangs out in a untitled catagory all by itself taking away for all the other catagories?  Oh, wait a second, its called a "detachment", I get it.

Lovely.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline Ambrose

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2011, 02:07:37 AM »
My friends and I play with armies in the 2000 range, so filling up the minimum core is easy at 500 points.  My thought is that if you have a core unit of halberdiers with a detachment of handgunners then it should be all +++.

If I am using the detachment system, the handgunners can stand and shoot for the halberdiers or themselves.
If I am NOT using the detachment system, the handgunners can only stand and shoot for themselves.

In addition, detachments don't cause panic.  These are all pretty basic bonuses, and if the point cost is the same, why wouldn't I take a detachment?

If an enemy is going to charge the handgunner detachment, wouldn't they do that anyways?  I just don't see why people are hard on the detachment system so far for 8th.  Again, I havn't tested my metal in the field of battle, so my opinion may switch rather quickly.

I will let people know what happens.

Ambrose
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Offline abdulaapocolyps

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2011, 05:17:43 AM »
Anyone tried pairing their shooting units in detachments?I was thinking of taking 10 handgunners as a detachment with my crossbow men, potentially doubling my stand and shooting reaction...

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2011, 05:42:33 AM »
  I just don't see why people are hard on the detachment system so far for 8th.  Again, I havn't tested my metal in the field of battle, so my opinion may switch rather quickly.

The reason people are down on detachments is that they lost a lot in the 8th Edition rule set and GW didn't FAQ any of the useful elements back in.

There are limited uses- 5 man screens/blockers and some ranged options... but after several battles of trying larger detachments, you will do what most of us have done-  drop them like a bad habit. 

 :unsure:
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Offline MrAbyssal

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2011, 05:50:53 AM »
I still like to run a medium size detachment. With the wider frontage of units these days you can kind of hide it between 2 larger units, making it harder to charge. Remember as far as detachment supporting/counter charge in the flank goes, you only need to be able to see the flank, not necessarily need to be able to reach it (as long as you can reach part of the target unit), so you shouldn't need to worry too much about the other non-parent unit getting in the way. This is obviously better for supporting charges than counter but can still work.

The downside is your units are a bit more bunched up and so more vulnerable to having multiple of your units charged and template weapons.

While you won't be able to break steadfast, it's still bringing more attacks to the fight which I think is worth it.
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Offline Joelatron

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2011, 07:05:30 AM »
the best thing about detachments is that it gives us throw away units that DONT CAUSE PANIC that can be used as diverters, road blocks, and as I said earlier-they can beat up the opponents equivalent units with ease.

(For those of us who DONT take 3xcannon 3xmortar, 2xrocketbattery, x3 engineer-and for those who do-please learn how to use infantry! haha) How times in you games have you wished you had a unit you could move up to lose combat horribly, run and set up the perfect flank charge without having to: a) give up lots of points b) lose a bannered unit c) sacrifice a really useful unit that would be able to win the combat when you need to lose it?

Detachments give us this flexibility; they make us a really tactically diverse army on the battlefield. Tactics didn't die in 8th, and the game is not just about who has the biggest block steadfast the longest. Set up a flank charge with a 25 point unit and see how fast your opponent loses the steadfast game when you're against their flank. No ranks, lose combat, CR in your favour = very hard for them to "just simply reform to face" when they have to (re) roll snake eyes to do it.

If your large detachments are not working, try dropping them in size so they are not a "combat unit" to take on the big boys, but a "combat effective unit" for the types of things you dont want to waste your hordes on....chariots, fast calv, shooting units etc.

Offline commandant

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2011, 10:33:39 AM »
As detachments are one of the reasons that I came to the Empire I would like to write a detailed defense of them.   I do not claim that anything you will read is correct in any way other than the fact that it is my opinion and I leave the door open to being wrong.
Also I have attempted to write this as an extract from an Book on Tactics so,
1: Basic Soldiers Pay = 25% to be spent on core
2: The last century (7th ed)

                                                       The Imperial Detachment System

Having looked at length at the infantry that the Empire is quickly able to raise and therefore will form the backbone of any Imperial force I think that it is important that we spend some time looking at the detachment system with which these infantry are trained and the effects that it will have on our battle lines, should we adopt it or fight against it.

 A detachment is a smaller unit that is taken from the main body (though it may not be armed the same as the main body) and is trained to protect the flank of the main body.   The detachment will never be more than half the size of the main body and sometimes a great deal smaller.   I would like to look at the different types of infantry that are used, at their advantages and at their disadvantages and then I would like to examine the advantages and disadvantages of the complete system.

1: Halberdiers

As we saw when we examined the infantry Halberdiers are the aggressive option for the Empire.   Cheap, decently trained and armed with a powerful halberd these troops can cut through opposing ranks with ease.   The same is true if they are detachments, indeed more true if they are detachments.   Due to the difficulty of the attacked unit to defend itself to the flank and the front the halberdiers that are crashing into its flank can do considerably more damage than would otherwise be expected of them.   Their advantage lies in the damage that they cause.
The disadvantage of halberdiers as a detachment is the same as the disadvantage of the halberdier in general.   Weak armour and poor defense means they die easily.

2: Spearmen

When we examined the spearmen we saw that they are cheap and that their long weapon offers them a greater range.   This however is not as useful as a detachment as they find it difficult to use the greater range when charging and therefore will not find it a benefit until locked in combat.
Their disadvantage of weak armour and poor defense is not effected.

3: Swordsmen

Swordsmen are better trained than either Spearmen or Halberdiers and yet as a detachment that greater trainer, which provides them with a much greater defensive ability, is somewhat wasted.
Their want of killing power and limited range is a disadvantage for them.

4: Free Company

The Empire, as we saw, has at its disposal numbers of bandits and loyal citizens that band together in times of need.   They tend to be a little frenzied and provide masses of poorly trained but high attack rates.   
Their advantage is the hight numbers of attacks they produce.
No armour and weak defense is, with almost all Imperial infantry their disadvantage.

You can see that of the combat troops I favour the halberdier but the free company also has their part to play.

5: Handgunners

Expensive but well trained and using powerful weapons Handgunners suffer from the slow reloading process that makes movement difficult.

6: Archers

Expensive to train but their swift reloading process means that they can move and shoot.   However their damage tends to be small and the fact they can move means that their ability to hit suffers

8: Crossbows

They have a longer range than the handgun but are not as powerful.   Their extra range does make up for their (slight) lack of power so everything that was mentioned when discussing handgunners applies to them.

Therefore you will notice that I prefer the handgun but find that the crossbow is just as acceptable.

I would now look at the charges that are levied against the system.

1: It is expensive to train.   That is to say that the money needed to train these troops in this method does not come from the Basic Soldiers Pay and must be found elsewhere.

This is true, there is no way of denying that.   However this argument is based on the idea that there is no elsewhere to get the money from.   An Imperial army's backbone is its basic soldiers and you will find that much more of the army's kitty than is allotted will be spend paying basic soldiers.   Upwards of 40% of the army's budget will normally be spent on its core troops.   Also the argument can, and has, been made that the lack of any real rare choice troops means that the money that would normally be spent on them can be used to pay for the upgrades.

2: That they provide a weak point in your line for the foe to exploit.   This is based on the idea that the foe will charge the detachment rather than the parent unit and break through your line that way.

I think that this is based on the idea that detachments are small.   In the last century this was true but they proved hard to command and since then, given the greater increase of the size of units in general, detachments have grown larger and large.   I would not be surprised to see a detachment that would have been an entire unit in the last century.   A foe attempting to charge a well placed detachment that is some space behind and to the side of its parent unit suffers from two major problems.
     a: should the foe be in horde formation his front will be too wide to connect with the detachment without connecting with the parent unit first.   thus allowing the detachment to do its job anyway.
     b: Should the detachment, when finding itself charged, flee, the foe will be forced to deal with the parent unit, that will often have a flank charge.
It is unwise therefore, to my mind, for the foe to attempt to break through the Imperial line by charging detachments.   A note should be made that should the foe charge the detachment and the parent unit at the same time reactions will have to be made as are correct in that point of time.

The advantages of the detachment are as follows.

1: They mean that you can deploy your army more swiftly than would otherwise be the case
2: They provide you with units that can be used for baiting, drawing out fanatics etc that will not cause panic in your army.
3: They are large enough units to deal with war machine hunters and the light infantry and flyers of other armies.
4: The can protect the flanks of your forces
5: The larger size of the detachments, compared to the last century means that they can be detached and sent on missions of their own.
6: They can charge the flanks of units attacking their parent unit.


I hope that you find this useful.

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« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 11:26:42 AM by commandant »

Offline Ambrose

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2011, 03:30:14 PM »
Thanks for all the imput.  I will be trying the detachment system and see how it works.  Again, on paper it looks good and with all these positive responses I will certainly give some of these tactics a try.

Ambrose
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Offline Marcus_Octavius

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2011, 09:26:44 PM »
A couple thoughts about Detachments in 8th:

1) Larger units = larger detachments:

It is not unreasonable to take 80 Spearmen or Halberdiers in 8th edition and in fact can be quite successful.  We can utilize our detachments to field slightly smaller, but still large units that can counter-charge.  So perhaps take between 60-80 Spearmen as a parent unit and 30-40 Halberdiers as a detachment.  If other protective measures fail you can always use the large size as a way to reduce the enemy's ability to successfully fight the detachment as you have a very real chance of being Steadfast inspite of their damage output.

2) Deploy Detachments Further Back:

The detachment can be deployed further back from the front of the parent, about 6", to garuntee a successful counter-charge or it can be even further, 7-8", to allow a counter charge on a 3+ or 4+ on the 2D6 roll and be essentially un-chargable. 

3) Counter-Charge by the Parent:

Your other option is to deploy both the combat parent & combat detachment units next to eachother about 1" apart in a battleline.  Then deploy a small unit of archers or free company infront of the detachment.  The "Speedbump" can accept a charge in order to protect the primary detachment from a charge.  The pursuit/overrun will of course hit the primary detachment and expose a flank to the Parent unit in your own turn.

4) Delay and shoot!:

Of course you can always use a pair of throw away detachments to bait-&-flee.  The enemy can only ever redirect a charge once and maybe not even pass the LD to do so!  You can gain an additional turn of shooting by simply having 2 smaller detachments of maybe Crossbows/Hanguns/Archers to shoot for the first couple turns (or go cheap with Halberds/Freecompany).  These detachments should be fairly small maybe 5-10 max and only in 1-2 ranks.  Deploy both detachments 1" infront of the other and the rear detachment should be 1" infront of the parent block.  When the enemy charges the bait detachment you simply flee, if they pass their redirect, flee again; they will now be forced to fail their charge as you have a 3rd unit blocking the 1st & 2nd.  Now the enemy has faild their charge and you can fire your awesome artillery an additional turn before the parent units have to accept the fight.  An extra turn to kill an Abom or thin out a Horde of GW-Marauders will make a huge difference.

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Offline Ambrose

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Re: 8th Edition Detachments Good or Bad
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2011, 10:03:34 PM »
In regards to your 'delay and shoot', you what one parent (A), and two detachments (B) and (C).  Are you saying you would have them lined up in a row, one in front of the other like this;

Enemy here

C Detachment C
B Detachment B
A Parent unit.

Table edge.

Then, if C is charged, it flees down through B and A.  If the enemy continues the charge to B, B flees through A, Leaving A, the parent unit in front of the charging enemy.  The enemy would not be able to charge a third time and thus would be stopped where it is (allowing another turn for bombardment, etc)>  It seems like a good idea, but I am wondering with deployment the units may be close to the dabl's edge.  Have you tried this before and if so, with what outcome?  I am very interested.

Ambrose

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