Topic: Demigryphs, post-FAQ

[rothgar13]

Hey all,

It's been a while, but the newest round of FAQ has brought me out of my Empire-related torpor with the momentous announcement that the Demigryph Knights (already one of my favorite Empire units) were made even stronger, thanks to using the Gryph's T4 all the time. As such, I wanted to ask - how do you project to use your DGK's? That's admittedly a vague question, so allow me to elaborate further:

How many units do you plan to bring in a standard game (let's say 2500 points)? 1, 2, or 3? Why?
What unit size would you prefer? 4? 6? 8? Higher? Lower? Why?
Are you giving them any magic banners? Why or why not? Which ones?

To provide a template (of sorts), I'll go ahead and answer first.

I'd either plan to bring 1 or 2 units to a 2500 game, and they would be 6 strong (if 2) or 8 strong (if 1). The reasons why are that this allows me to pack enough Wounds to make them stand-alone fighting units as opposed to complementary forces. I would consider the Steel Standard, the Banner of Eternal Flame, and the Standard of Swiftness among my top choices for magic banners, more or less in that order.

[Joelatron]

I typically play at 2400pts

I run a unit of 5 with muso-coming in at a tidy 300pts and is wide enough to fully engage with horde units. t4 has just made them to do this better (ie not quite as worried by the s5 stuff as they used to be!)

Now they are t4 I am also seriously considering swapping out Mr unreliable Stank for a 2nd unit of 4 with Muso (242pts)

Along side a unit of ICKS + captasus + archer bunker and chaff + 2 cannon/hellblaster/engineer= rather solid battleline

I've looked long and hard at 3x4, however losing the captasus/artillery is loosing too much...would be interesting to see how it goes though

[Gorgash Redfang]

NONE!

The FAQ has changed nothing for me, I will not pay the price GW wants for the models.... simple

[commandant]

Also none.   The FAQ changes nothing, they don't fit the fluff of my army at this time

[Talben21]

I think it really does make them more useful. Currently I am running 1 unit of 4 and another of 3. They have done very well for me and now being T 4 they will only do better.

Making them T4 with a 1+ armor saves makes them a very tough unit to kill!

[TCWarroom]

NONE!

The FAQ has changed nothing for me, I will not pay the price GW wants for the models.... simple

I don't feel they are that unreasonable. There are plenty of places that sell for 20% off.

[Lanceocletian]

I think the question is a good one- 

I am still in the process of painting my new model Empire army, but the initial plan is two units of four.  However, I have to be honest, I am now considering running three units in my most competitive builds at 2,500 points.  However, without playing any test games yet, I am still trying to determine how much synergy they will have with the halberd blocks and the regular knights. 

[Dosiere]

I have only 3 and no plans right now to expand my Empire, so that's all for me.

If I could though, I would take 2 units of 3 or 1 unit of 4 in a 2.5k game.  At Toughness 4, they make a fantastic flanking unit and are effective against nearly anything being used in a similar role.

[rothgar13]

I'm surprised that most people are still running them more or less at flanker size. You guys do know a block of 6 can take 6-wide Khorne Halberd Chaos Warriors head-on right? Or that a block of 8 can grind down Hordes? I mean, I like 4 guys too, but I think it's leaving some potential on the table there.

[Captn Morgrim]

Just a question. Are you sure that ranks have any use in DG units?
After all, support attacks only the knight's attacks from the back ranks, so all you loose by using the classic "Flanker Set-up" is a bit durability (the points for which could easily go into a 2nd unit o DG Knights).
All I 'm saying is that with ranked DG units you loose out on the real good stuff, the fact that the Demigryffs are taking the Mount of Doom syndrome to a new extreme - they even have the stats to support that!

[jack]

  Way to expensive ,both, in game terms as well as pocketwise.Horribly ugly model as well.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

  Way to expensive ,both, in game terms as well as pocketwise.Horribly ugly model as well.

I competely agree - except for the game terms. Demigryphs are really one of our best units.

[zifnab0]

You guys do know a block of 6 can take 6-wide Khorne Halberd Chaos Warriors head-on right? Or that a block of 8 can grind down Hordes?

Better to take 2 units of 3 or 4.  The biggest problem with ranks of Demigryphs is that mounts don't get supporting attacks.  And our knights, while good, aren't worth 58 points, even with 3 wounds.

[redflag]

I plan on converting Ogres to take the place of Demigryphs.  That makes them much cheaper on the pocketbook.

[mr chumley warner]

They are expensive, but having painted 5, i managed to get me 3 more , a boxset on amazon uk yesterday for £21.

I think you can shop around, total wargamer has them for £25.

I plan to run 3 units of 3 in my 5K list, each with just a Standard Bearer.

184 points in each case,  for a nice hammer unit, with T4.

Primarily I can't see enemy units with Strength 3 , being able to impact chickens in combat now.

5 to wound, and 2+ save.

I'll probably use a unit of 3 to hold up my opponents hordes, either his goblins or chaos marauders depending on the army i play against.

They could hold up 50-100 Goblins quite nicely imo.

God save the chickens !

[Fandir Nightshade]

Beautiful models and as soon as I can afford it I want to get as much as two units of four.

[BBorN]

Heya Rothgar! This mean your taking a break from your Ramhorns? Haha.

This new FAQ ruling has me drooling to run out and buy two more boxes, maybe even 3 for a total of 9-12 of this badboys. Pretty much exactly what GW was thinking when they changed this rule. I would love to run units of 4, or maybe one large unit with the steell standard or banner of swiftness, cant decide which i like better. Sucks we cant have a bsb riding a chicken! Debating on a captasus along with them, steel sstandard + banner of swiftness gives them a nice M9 to get them where they need to be. How big though? Ranks don't seem to make much sense, horde is laughably out of the question. Might try that unit of 8 out and see...or doe 3 units of 3/4

[rothgar13]

I don't know if I'll ever take a break from my Ramhorns, but I do need an army for an escalation league, and this may be my chance to get the actual Empire models and stop playing with proxies.

I've been thinking about running 6 in 4-wide formation for a while now, and the reason why I opt for that is that 4 isn't quite enough Wounds to get them to be as combat-worthy as I want. I know it seems a bit wasteful in terms of the offense generated by the guys in the back, but math-hammer shows me that it's worth it, at least.

The people who think they aren't worth 58ppm... I suggest you run the math on them (or wait until I post mine), then re-evaluate. These guys were worth every last point when they were T3, and the FAQ makes them even better. I consider them a legitimate blue-chip choice in an Empire army, and I would have immediate misgivings of an Empire list that plans to win in close combat that does not employ them.

[Fandir Nightshade]

I think they are rather cheap for their profile.

compare them to Ironguts...those come at 43 points

you have
more move, better ws (huuuge), more attacks, lower Strength (no ASL though), armour piercing, 1+ save(again huuuge)

a unit of 6 isn´t THAT expensive and packs an impressive punch and 18 1+ save wounds.

[b0007452]

I was wondering if now that the DGK are toughness 4, you guys feel the Halberd is a more valid weapon choice?

I know beforehand people were inclined to use the DGK with Lance & Shield but do you think the extra toughness makes the one worse armour save less of a problem?

Jim 

[Darknight]

Mathematically it depends on the usual S of attacks coming at them; an extra 1/6 chance of not being wounded combined with an extra 1/6 chance of failing the save is pretty much a wash. Looking at different S attacks, though...

S3 attacks (old T & shield) - wound 3/6, die 1/6 : 3/36 fatality
S3 attacks (old T & halb) - wound 3/6, die 1/6 : 3/36 fatality
S3 attacks (new T & shield) - wound 2/6, die 1/6 : 2/36 fatality
S3 attacks (new T & halb) - wound 2/6, die 1/6 : 2/36 fatality

S4 attacks (old T & shield) - wound 4/6, die 1/6 : 4/36 fatality
S4 attacks (old T & halb) - wound 4/6, die 2/6 : 8/36 fatality
S4 attacks (new T & shield) - wound 3/6, die 1/6 : 3/36 fatality
S4 attacks (new T & halb) - wound 3/6, die 2/6 : 6/36 fatality

S5 attacks (old T & shield) - wound 5/6, die 2/6 : 10/36 fatality
S5 attacks (old T & halb) - wound 5/6, die 3/6 : 15/36 fatality
S5 attacks (new T & shield) - wound 4/6, die 2/6 : 8/36 fatality
S5 attacks (new T & halb) - wound 4/6, die 3/6 : 12/36 fatality

So, the new T does not fully justify dropping the shield. It does, however, make it less of a bad choice in terms of survivrability - the difference between fatality levels is less pronounced.

Of course, if the majority of attacks coming at your DGKs are S3 or less, the halberd is an automatic choice because of the way a 1+ and 2+ AS are identical vs S3 attacks.

[mr chumley warner]

you have sold me on lance and shield ....

50 % more survivability vs Strength 4 enemy 

[mr chumley warner]

not that i needed selling !

[Joelatron]

You guys do know a block of 6 can take 6-wide Khorne Halberd Chaos Warriors head-on right? Or that a block of 8 can grind down Hordes?

Better to take 2 units of 3 or 4.  The biggest problem with ranks of Demigryphs is that mounts don't get supporting attacks.  And our knights, while good, aren't worth 58 points, even with 3 wounds.

when running then 5 or 6 strong you run them wide (with musician!), so never have the supporting attack problem.

They basically become a denying unit. No one wants to run into a unit of demigriffs. 5 wide is basically the same width as horde 25mm bases (and I'm sure you've come across these hordes before-mauraders, savage orc big uns, Chaos knights, bloodletters etc) so they are still usable and still very scary!

6 wide is a wee bit more unweldy, but can still do the same thing, but with a spare wound.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

One unit of 3, max, because I cannot change my league list. Their game performance has been horrible with not a single kill in four games.