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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Empire 8th Army Book => Topic started by: osterknact on September 29, 2010, 05:32:47 AM
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hi all been reading some of the ideas in this forum and some of the stuff blew me away. I want to expand on - and more importantly link - some of the ideas ie. Schola Bellator (Engineer School - think vampiric powers), along with possibly an SM style trait system for Knightly Orders and a new "flavour system" for every province. additionally DOW & new empire units are also on the agenda.
The Empire's real appeal and strength is the fact that in a fantasy world - men with S3 and I3 - can be victorious by combining all their diverse training and skills. The key is diversity - the current empire army book allows us to do that but with no real incentive or bonuses for leaving behind powerful units such as Stanks and Arch Lectors for the sake of fluff.
The "Flavour System" that I'm tossing around has 4 characteristics applied to each province, in relation to:
- 1 'What's in the Coffers' Economy - rich or poor
- 2 Population - Low or Normal
- 3 Religion: Sigmar, Ulric, Morr, Myrmidia, Maanan, Taal & Rhya
- 4 'Place in the Empire' Location: North (Hochland, Middenland, Nordland, Ostland & Ostermark) or South (Reikland, Wissenland, Averland, Stirland & Talabecland)
- 5 Army Focus* - this last characteristic allows for even more customization and is not effected by province, letting each general pick a specific role for their army. Each focus comes with different benefits and drawbacks which make them more effective at that style of play.
For Example - The Characteristics of Ostermark:
1.Economy - Poor
2.Population - Low
3.Religion - Morr
4.Location - North
each of these characteristics unlocks traits not unlike Space Marine chapter traits. But whereas SM traits were optional, here the disadvantages are not. 2-3 disadvantages must be selected... from any of the above characteristics. eg. a Poor traits is; Few Relics 0-1 magic items for each character (Michael W).
For each disadvantage you unlock an advantage a one to one tradeoff.
The following is a table of each provinces characteristics (some of these are ?able - if you feel something doesnt fit let me know):
Economy Population Location Religion
Reikland Rich Many South Sigmar
Wissenland Rich? Few? South Sigmar?
Averland Rich Many South Sigmar/Myrmidia
Stirland Poor Many South Sigmar/Morr
Talabecland Poor Few South Ulrick/Taal north/south line
Hochland Poor? Few? North Taal/Rhya
Middenland Rich? Many North Ulric
Nordland Poor? Many? North Maanan
Ostland Poor Few North Sigmar
Ostermark Poor Few North Morr
Altdorf Rich Many South Sigmar
Nuln Rich Many South ?
Middenheim Rich Many North Ulric
Talabheim Rich Many North Ulric
Economy Characteristic - Poor
- List of Advantages:
* Fevered Devotion
Particularly religious or afflicted regions become practically renowned for their flagellant bands, and those who take the call are even more ferverent and eager to suffer than most flagellants in the Empire.
Any Flagellants in the army benefit from +1 Toughness, but cost +2 pts/model.
* Specialized Huntsmen
In more rural and northern regions, archers are usually grouped into smaller and more flexible contingents to facilitate stealth.
Huntsman units may be 5-20 men instead of 10-20, and may exchange their bows for crossbows or handguns for +2 pts/model.
- List of Disadvantages:
* Little Blackpowder
Some regions are too poor to afford much blackpowder weaponry, while others simply disdain it. Whatever the reason, the army includes considerably less powder weapons than normal.
Cannons, Mortars, and Outriders use Rare choices, and Handgunners use Special slots. Steam Tanks are limited 0-1. If Handgunners are taken as detachments (regardless of how many such units), a single Special slot is used up.
* Superstitious Some regions are still backward, or strict, and treat magic as the tool of the demons of the north and the disloyal elves. Wizards in such places, regardless of their credentials, are unwelcome at best.
The army is limited to 0-1 Battle Wizard per 2000 points, and 0-1 Wizard Lords. Wizards of any type may never be the Army General.
* Few Relics
Recently raided or poor regions often lack the magic arsenal that wealthier areas can put together.
Limit 0-1 magic items per Character.
* Poor Province
In some places, the money simply doesn’t exist to easily recruit men or forge armour in great numbers.
Greatswords and Pistoliers cost +2 pts/model, Knights and Outriders cost +3 pts/model.
Economy Characteristic - Rich
- List of Advantages:
* Militia Equipment
Some wealthier or more violent regions have more heavily armed and armoured militia forces and bandit gangs.
Free Companies may have light armour (+1 pt/model) and may trade their second hand weapon for pistols (+3 pts/model).
* Heavy Plate
Particularly wealthy provinces, or sometimes simply eccentric nobles, will sometimes outfit their halberdier contingents in heavier plate armour to increase their survival rates and decrease the number of new recruits needed each year.
Any Halberdiers in the army may exchange their shields for heavy armour at no cost.
* Deep Pockets
A wealthy province offers much more oppurtunity and the promise of rich rewards. Mercenaries are a common sight defending merchants and are more than willing to protect the province, for a price of course.
An extra unit of Dogs of War 2.0 may be fielded. DoW have +1 leadership on break tests.
- List of Disadvantages:
* Cultured
More developed regions find that they have a growing middle class, which results in a sizable economy but tends to drive away the rough men who take to a life of banditry and war. They usually must rely on trained soldiers rather than hurried recruitments when drawing men for battle.
All Militia units use Special slots. If Militia are included in the army as detachments, regardless of how many such detachments, one Special slot is used up.
* Civilized and Reasoned
When prophets are driven from the street by philosophers, and priests take the duties of administration before that of the battlefield, it becomes much harder to find a raging mob led by a cold priest with a hard hammer.
Flagellants never use up a Core slot – they are always Rare, even if the army includes a Warrior Priest or Arch Lector. Warrior Priests are limited to 0-1 per 2000 points, Arch Lectors are 0-1, and neither may ever be the Army General.
*Pomp and Ceremony
In the more peaceful regions of the Empire troops are often equipped for pageantry and ceremonies, rather than actual combat.
All State Troops and Militia units must contain a standard bearer and musician if permitted by the standard rules. In addition, the army must be led by a General or Captain of the Empire.
* Cheap Quartermaster
The supply officer for the army went with a human bidder instead of a dwarven one.
All units listed as having 'Full Plate Armour' (Knights and Greatswords) instead only have Heavy Armour, and characters may not take Full Plate Armour at all.
Location Characteristic - North
- List of Advantages:
* Veteran Officers
In places where combat is fierce and frequent, the officer corps has become a veteran institution of professionals who inspire men and calm shaking nerves when the heat of battle grows intense.
Captains in this army cost +20 pts, but are Immune to Panic and bestow this ability upon any unit they join.
* Master Bowmen
Regions where the bow remains a primary ranged weapon typically carry superior weapons, which take longer to craft but are much appreciated by their bearers.
The army’s archers and huntsmen are equipped with longbows and cost +1 pt/model.
* Leader of Men
The army is led by a particularly well-known or commanding officer, who has quickly earned the respect and often the devotion of his men.
The army general has a leadership range of 18”, but costs +35 pts.
* Militia Equipment
see Characteristic - Rich.
- List of Disadvantages:
* It Looks Better in the Hall (?)
Some places have few, if any, magical standards, and they are jealously guarded and rarely used. In other cases, an inept noble just thinks it looks better on the wall than on a flagpole.
The army may not include any magical standards.
* We're Not in Altdorf Anymore
Engineers have no love of travelling, unless they are experimenting with flight. Northern Provinces find it hard to attract Engineers they are rarely seen. Not much but an Imperail Edict or a Steam Tank can summon them away from their school, unless they have gone completely mad...
Empire Engineers either cost an extra 20pts OR suffer from the stupid rule & can bring 1 add. experimental weapon.
Location Characteristic - South
- List of Advantages:
* Half-pikes
Southern regions of the Empire often employ a longer and more cumbersome weapon than the spear of the north, called the half-pike, adopted from Tilea.
Spearmen may not carry shields, but fight in 3 ranks instead of 2. They cost +1 pt/model.
* Long Guns
Some foundries build handguns of longer barrels, often braced with stands. Though more expensive and harder to carry, such guns grant increased range for the deadly shot.
All handgunners in the army gain +6” range (30” total) and cost +2 pt/model.
- List of Disadvantages:
* Fresh Recruits
When rebuilding an army, or assembling a new one, the force often includes considerable numbers of new faces; young men who have not yet seen true battle, and who may be prone to fleeing at the sight of monsters, dragons, and bloodthirsty, well-nigh invincible foemen.
All Militia and State Troops suffer -1 Leadership on Fear, Terror, and Panic tests.
* Glorious Expectations (?- should it be here)
The horsemen in the army are full of themselves and their duty, and jostle to be the first to engage the enemy in battle.
All cavalry units in the army suffer from the Impetuous rule and must make a Leadership test to avoid charging an enemy within range at the beginning of the Compulsory Movement phase (if they have not already moved or attempted to charge).
* Overconfident
Whether pride, history, or simply naiveté, the troops in this army are supremely confident of regular, easy victory; finding that they must pay in blood is often an uncomfortable discovery.
The entire army suffers -1 Leadership on Break Tests.
Population Characteristic - Few
- List of Advantages:
* Close-Knit
- List of Disadvantages:
* Conscripts
Many regions forcibly supplement their infantry corps in times of war or plague, finding a need for men more pressing than their experience. Such forces are less reliable than more professional Empire armies.
All Empire Core Infantry loses the State Troops special rule and become Militia, and thus cannot serve as Parent Units. Up to 1/2 of the Core melee (Halberdiers, Swordsmen, and Spearmen) infantry units in the army may buy the rule back (representing regular infantry supplemented by conscripts) for +40 pts/unit.
* Inept Commanders
Whether by birth or breeding, many of this army’s top officers are less than perfect for the job of leading an army into battle, and have difficulty enforcing their will (if they have one at all) in the chaos and confusion of combat.
The Army General’s leadership range is limited to 6”. This trait cannot be taken in conjunction with Leader of Men.
* Small Population
In regions of low density populations and few cities, or in heavily developed areas, militiamen are available for duty, but it is difficult to keep a full garrison of state troops on permanent standby.
All State Troops in the army cost +1 pt/model.
Population Characteristic - Many
- List of Advantages:
* Strength in Numbers
- List of Disadvantages:
Religion Characteristic - x
* Sigmar
* Ulric
* Morr
* Myrmidia
* Taal
* Rhya
* Maanan
* Verenea+
? - okay so a signature prayer for each different religion + advantage and disadvantage for province as a whole. all provinces have access to Sigmar warrior priests - as shown in army book. However, provinces where Sigmar's faith is particularly strong notice that their prayers have greater effect.
(what do you guys think?)
Army Focus Characteristic - x
*The following is a list of WIP focuses; Holy Mission (w.priest army), Crusade (ie.foot knights), Engineers, Imperial Venture? -not sure about this one (karl franz and special characters), Hit and Run (Skirmishers), Gunline(blackpowder), 'Glorius Charge' (Cavalry) & 'Stand and Fight' (CC units) [/li]
- Hit and Run inc. skirmishers, fast cavalry & scouts.
* Demiliancer Contingents
Though most young nobles join the Pistolier Corps, some second sons and veteran soldiers form demilancer forces: small, fast units of hard-hitting cavalry that excel at breaking small units and running down broken regiments.
Any units of Pistoliers may be upgraded to Demilancers. They lose their second pistol, but gain lances. Normal command options apply, but the Outrider may not carry a repeater pistol. Any other provincial traits which apply to Pistoliers apply to Demilancers as well.
- Shock Tatics - Empire Knights
- The Sword - State Troops (good quote:'Victory is still measured by the foot')
* Elite State Troops
Some forces include elite regiments, such as the Stir River Patrol, Averland’s famed Mountainguard, or Altdorf’s Palace Guard, who are better trained and drilled than normal Empire soldiers.
0-1 unit of Spears or Halberdiers may have +1 WS and +1 Ld for +2 pts/model, or 0-1 unit of Swordsmen may have +1 Ld for +1 pt/model.
- Gunline - hangunners, canons & mortars
* Sharpshooters
Areas where handguns are a primary or frequently-used weapon often have veterans grouped into contingents of sharpshooters, who are capable of delivering more accurate or a faster rate of fire.
Any Handgunner units in the army (not detachments) may be upgraded to Sharpshooters for +2 pt/model. Sharpshooters benefit from +1 BS.
- Exp. Weaponry - engineer focus
- Crusade - knight only army structure...
- Holy Mission - Arch Lector & W. Priest army
if anyone has any suggestions/ideas on the system greatly appreciated.
sources & inspiration:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=4416.0 - Guide to the Imperial Provinces
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=19151.0 - Provincial Traits* by Michael W
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=28852.25 - search in post for Schola Bellator
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=28528.0 - The value of weapons and training
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=19226.0 - Characters for next book
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=30341.0 - Education
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=30799.0 - General and Captain: Imperial Doctrines
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=34419.0 - Guide to the Empire*
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=29639.0 - The Empire 7.5 Supplement
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anybody? need some help coming up with ideas for advantages/disadvantages for a large population? the one I can think of right now is 'not enough to go around' along those lines but doesnt really fit? any help who be great
- also how do you make a table in this txt document? been trying but cant get it to work
??? - Questions about certain provinces and their characteristics. Im not sure about how to place some of these.
Nordland - Rich or Poor, Few or Many
Wissenland - Rich or Poor, Few or Many, Religion?
Talabecland - Rich or Poor, Few or Many
Hochland - Rich or Poor, Few or Many
Middenland - Rich or Poor, Few or Many
thanks ill be shortly psting ill the provinces characteristics which will be open for discussion... the ? need answering
Economy Population Location Religion
Reikland Rich Many South Sigmar
Wissenland ? ? South ?
Averland Rich Many South Sigmar/Myrmidia
Stirland Poor Many South Sigmar/Morr
Talabecland ? ? North Ulric/Taal
Hochland ? ? North Taal/Rhya
Middenland ? ? North Ulric
Nordland ? ? North Maana
Ostland Poor Few North Sigmar
Ostermark Poor Few North Morr
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Very nice, this sounds full of potential, possably even could be used to fluff out a empire based BordePrince's Barony and such.
An example,
You could make a list to represent Stirland= poor, low population, little or no black powder units, very religouse. A few tweeks here and there and you have a list that would perfectly fit many barony in the Borderlands OR set up a list to represent Averland and a little imagination you've got a Tilian merchant prince setting up shop in the Borders' to start making profits from the local resources', bringing along a large force of supersticiouse Tilian mercenaries to protect his little enterprise.
Again lots of potential and very impressive :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
:::cheers:::
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thanks for replying could you think of any characteristics i missed that could be used to further this theme?
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Not at all. Nothing of real detail comes to mind at the moment.
But I must say that it would need to incorparate enough flexability to make fun fluffy lists.
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An idea just struck, it may not be worth anything but reading through the last edition codex for IG, mainly the doctrines, but what I've noticed is that some of the Doctrines would work well for an Empire version. I will consider this more and may even start a seperate thread, and hopefully see if I can come up with something that will be of use for you.
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thatd be great i dont have the IG codex but it would be great to understand the system might generate some good ideas
* I really need some traits for population especially 'Many' = what are the dis/advantages of a large population...
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Quickly thinking about it this is what I would think(in general).
Advantages;
*large population= large intake of draftees when needed
enough men for standing garrisons' (state/militia)
(may add more to this)
Disadvantages;
plenty of misfits/brigands/organised crime
unless wealthy some/all resources would run low/run out
possability of rebelion.
appologies for nothing specific but thats all I can think of right now.
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I have only glanced over it, but you clearly made some effort, and I think it is a very good idea! Especially for campaigns. :-)
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Agreed, we could have done with sometning like this for the Solland Effort last year
(I missed doing that :icon_cry:)
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Excelllent alternative rules osterknact. Fantastic job.
I dont really have time to help add to them rigth now, but I will get back to you soon.
Keep up the good work.
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osterknact, pm me your e-mail, and I'll send you an army list I wrote for Stirland the other day.
I see we think similarly on some points. Perhaps the army list helps you to flesh out Stirland.
As for the advantages and disadvantages of a large population... I think we should approach the question theoretically, with some historical anecdotes. Here are some things to consider:
1. Every pre-industrial state wanted to have large populations, especially because of recruits for their armies. In this sense, small population is only a disadvantage. There's nothing to gain from a small population. (Anecdote: when a 17th century Swedish king finally had a very thorough census in front of him, he was superbly dissappointed because of the small population of his realm. In addition, the census was kept secret, because the Swedish were afraid their enemies would attack them knowing how weak the realm was.)
2. However, there's a limit to population: food. If the population is too large to be fed, people either need to migrate or starve to death. Usually, the adventurous poor migrate and the non-adventurous poor die. The elites, the middle classes, and the well-off farmers have the judicial system to protect their possessions, and will grab arms (ar call the military) to protect them, if the poor try to eat what is not righfully theirs. Popular unrest is a bad thing for any state. Thus grain supply became early on one of the main concerns of pre-industrial rulers. (Which doesn't mean they did any good to secure it.)
Now, we need to decide if the Empire is approaching its limits of population, or if the Empire perhaps still has room within the provincial borders to found new villages and colonise virgin lands. The existence of the vast forests makes it quite clear the Empire could do the latter. The existence of crowded cities suggests that at least in some regions people don't think colonisation could give them better life. This is of course the result of the chaos and greenskins etc. in the forests. The balance of danger is different than in early modern Europe. We need to ask, how much must be invested in a colony so that it will become secure and start producing something for the greater good (i.e. men can be enlisted and taken away from the colony without the colony becoming so weak that beastmen and goblins destroy it).
This, I believe, might hint to an altogether different effect the population might have on enlistment. Here are the options:
Colonists: the state is actively tied into a colonisation project, and this is reflected in the enlisting options. The new colonists need protection, and cannot be marched away from their homes without endangering the whole prospect of the colonisation project.
Advantage: Local Militia. The army gets one Militia Command Group for free. However, it must include at least one Militia contingent that is not a detachment, but a real independent unit.
Disadvantage: Dispersed Garrisons. The State Troops have a maximum unit size, perhaps 30. (Although this might be eased a bit by stating that one State Troop contingent has no limits.)
Urban Poor: the state is not taking care of its excess population, and so the poor gather in the cities. This opens good prospects for enlistment, but on the other hand, the cities need to be heavily policed also in wartime, tying up trained men.
Advantage/disadvantage: Cheap Militia. The army may buy Militia at a cost of 4 pts per model. (CG still costs normal.) However, the militia can never operate as detachments.
Disadvantage: Limited Detachments. The army may include max. one detachment per one unit of State Troops. This means that a State Troop contingent may still have two detachments, but for every State Troop contingent with two detachments, there must be a State Troop contingent with no detachments at all. (They're policing the cities.)
Of course, the third option is none of the above, in which case the province plays along the normal rules.
As of which province is in which state, I don't know. I guess Reikland could have Urban Poor while Middenheim/land has colonists and e.g. Stirland has no advantages or disadvantages in this respect (census).
I think this would be a fluffy way to incorporate some familiar themes from RW history.
-Z
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thanks zygmund great stuff there would love to discuss it more... what are your thoughts on the trait system should each disadvantage be linked to an advantage? i was considering this but also wanted to have as much customization as possible
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Lots of stuff but too much for a single army book
I would be happy with a flavour rare choice for each province
choose province get
Averland - Halflings
Ostland - Ogres
Middenheim - Wolfkin
Reikland - Reiksguard
Nuln - greater great cannon
Stirland - toothless peasants
Hochland - Jägers
etc. etc. etc.
done.
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i can see how there would be an argument for less stuff in army books but i think that adding 5 - 6 pages into the army book should not be the reason that this level of customization is dismissed.
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thanks zygmund great stuff there would love to discuss it more... what are your thoughts on the trait system should each disadvantage be linked to an advantage? i was considering this but also wanted to have as much customization as possible
In my own hobby, I prefer room for customization. However, if you hope to "sell" your idea to a broader public, you probably need to make a nice and easy package. This means ready thought-out advantage-disadvantage pairs, or perhaps a ready-made list of 'always on' advantages and disadvantages for each Province.
Thus, the question is not so much what my thoughts are, but what is your goal in general: fun for yourself and a couple of friends, or a broader movement towards fluff.
I'm always making my own adjustments in the end. Thus what you have ready now actually is all I'll need.
And then, of course, none of the Provinces are 'written in stone' to a degree that you couldn't argue for or against some advantages and disadvantages. And even if you produce a widely accepted, balanced whole, a new Empire book from GW might shatter it overnight. This is, I believe, the reason why the creator of 'A is for Altdorf...' is happy with the 'product' as is: it's informative and flexible enough to be usable over edition changes, and to all interested.
-Z
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Zygmund - eventually i hope this to be something which would be considered by everyone to be something that could be included in the 8th Empire Army Book. I realized at the moment it is far to cluttered and needs much more work before it reaches this stage i hope that some members will help contribute their ideas to improving the system.
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Right. :)
In such a case, I'd simplify things a lot.
1) Max three special rules for each Province. Two might be better still. Even one special rule for each Province would be enough to breath life into the Province fluff and make the province interesting.
2) Minimum overlap of rules from Province to Province. It would be best if each Province had a unique (set of) special rule(s).
3) Instinctive and clear special rules. So that the reader doesn't need to deeply understand the environmental, social or technical undercurrents determining the Province special rules.
4) Avoid special rules that only add colour: make each rule count.
5) Keep game balance in mind: no overkill rules.
6) Always allow the basic list for all Provinces. (Most of the players, even if they find the fluff fun, will want to create Empire lists along the general lines of other armies, with similar freedom and simplicity.)
This is not an easy task.
I'm sorry I don't have the time to go through the ideas now. I think you already have good advice in a couple of replies above. I do agree with the comments you've received thus far. My ideas, I believe, are a bit too complicated to be included in this project.
The best of luck for your project. It's definitely the funniest and fluffiest I've seen concerning the rules! :)
-Z