Topic: (Poor article) About Dogs of War in Empire armies...

[Hugatsaga]

I'm new in this forum and if there is already article about DoW then this article isn't worth reading.

I dont have time and experience to introduce DoW units one by one and tell which of them are good and so on... But anyway, DoW troops are very useful and effective and I hope this article inspires a veteran player with real experience of DoW (and RoR) and Kislev to write better article in this forum and war room (if there already isn't one).

Now to DoW (or about marauders and dwarfs):

I guess that ogres, pikemen and duellists are most often used and most effective and DoW super-cheap fast cavarly is also good, but norse marauders got my attention. With a shield upgrade they are exactly like empire swordsmen (same stats and same equipment) except they cost only 1 point more, have frenzy  and take rare choice instead of core. Frenzied marauders with great weapons would also be nice. If you are going to convert some, remember that unlike chaos marauders, DoW marauders must be in 20mm x 20mm base.

Hiring dwarfs in empire would also be good idea. With 9 points you can get dwarf with heavy armour and shield. Great weapon option is also very useful.

Strange think about DoW is that every member in foot units command group costs 10 pts. So buying musician isn't always good idea (especially when hiring dwarfs).

The problem of hiring DoW in empire (atleast in my case) is that empire has already so great rare units.

What do you think? Which DoW units are good and which of them do you use?

Do you often take DoW or Kislev allied contingents in your army or do you like to keep it "pure" empire army?

If you do, which troops do you take?

[General Helstrom]

Hi Hugat, and welcome aboard! Thanks for making a contribution. We do have a library and war room which are both packed full of articles - including one on DoW and the Empire - but these are currently offline while we re-arrange the site.

If you want to add an article, then you should first post it in the "Imperial Office" forum, where others will read and critique it - once it is found fit for publishing, it will be enshrined in our mighty vaults of knowledge. For an article, however, your piece seems rather short

Shall we take this as a discussion of Dogs of War in the Empire instead?

In that case, I would like to give my vote to Duellists with Pistols, and Light Cav with Spears. These are cheap auxiliary units that can wonderfully fill some niches in the Empire army list that are otherwise uncovered. Pistoliers are a bit too expensive to use as throw-away light cavalry raiders, and we really don't have any satisfactory answer to scouts and tunnelers. DoW Light Cav and Duellists respectively fill these roles very well. A unit of each comes to a combined cost of about the same as a Helblaster, which you won't be able to take anyway as you've used up both Rare slots, but in my opinion it's a very good trade-off.

I suppose the Giant needs a special mention, and I bet we'll be hearing more of this as people actually go out and use one (or two, though that seems like a rather daft thing to do). It costs a fair share of points and it is vulnerable to missile fire (about as hard to kill as six armoured Dwarfs), but it is also fast, Stubborn, and it causes Terror. It's quite a good pick for the Empire, I would think, if it is used as a complement to a cavalry arm or to an anchor unit. Still, for 50-100 points more, I think I'd rather have a Steam Tank.

[Big Time]

Pistoliers are a bit too expensive to use as throw-away light cavalry raiders, and we really don't have any satisfactory answer to scouts and tunnelers. DoW Light Cav and Duellists respectively fill these roles very well.

I agree. Good at protecting artillery crews or rear lines, and in this role they can also be a good thematic alternative to Helblasters in case the scatterguns don't fit in to your army.

It's quite a good pick for the Empire, I would think

I can't wait for the giant, personally, and I know a lot has been said about it, but the model looks great and comes with great accesories to enliven my bits box. Also, I think a giant would be a lot of fun to use. Everytime my O&G buddy uses one, we have a great time. Again, it would be a good thematic alternative to the Steam Tank.

[Duellist]

Yeh, although I was initially against the giant (partly due to price, partly due to the armies he was available to and partly because he looked a bit naf) I think it's grown on me. It would be very fun to not only build and convert it, but also to field one. The rules in WD made me think that he would be a nice addition from time to time, against armies that have smaller amounts of shooting (lizards, brets, ogres etc). So yes I guess I may get one sometime, despite the offensive price.

Your article though seems along the same lines as one that already exists, however another one with a more in depth look at the less common DoW choices would be welcome, assuming you have something new to add. If only the war room was active...

Duellist

[Border Prince]

Fast cav (with spears) and duellists are great.

I'd add DoW heavy cavalry, unbarded. No upgrades and they are pretty cheap (and hence better than the situational Kislevites!). More importantly they take a rare slot, rather than a special slot, which can usually be better filled with artillery, pistoliers and maybe even greatswords. M8 means that DoW cavalry can force stand-offs with Bret and HE cavalry, and get the drop on chariots. This is very helpful. They also divert attention from pistoliers (who often hit harder). You always have to remember they are only survivable compared to fast cavalry, but they are very nice against Dire Wolves and comabt skirmishers, who can take down fast cavalry easily, but struggle more against the 3+ save. That ends up meaning that they become very useful flank guards, as they perform best against the troops you are liekly to find sneaking around there.

Downsides are predominantly the lack of fast cavalry status. This just takes some getting used to, and then all is well.

[Pavane]

A good DoW unit is Bronzino's Galloper Guns.  The cost is high enough that no one should complain about you taking them, and they are well themed with all-mounted Empire armies.

[Hugatsaga]

Now you know why I called it poor article  . This used to be about DoW, RoR and Kislev in empire armies but instead it became article about DoW dwarfs and marauders and gallup about which DoW unit do you use...
But replies are good and its nice to know that empire players still use DoW.

When war room is back online (by the way do you know when?), I'm going to read article about DoW and then consider should I try to make (a real) article about DoW, RoR and Kislev (and maybe even post it in proper forum  ).

[Gregourious]

This used to be about DoW, RoR and Kislev in empire armies but instead it became article about DoW dwarfs and marauders and gallup about which DoW unit do you use...
But replies are good and its nice to know that empire players still use DoW.

What a good idea an article about what DOW we use.

I've been using DOW ogres with limited success. They tend to attack alot of attention and die early in the game. The cause fear never really amounts to anything. I field them with great weapons so when they hit they hurt and when they combine with the knights they are really unstopable. Maybe thats why they tend to get shot up alot. I found that giving them two hand weapons didn't really help with the opponents they tended to end up fighting. Giving them light armour for a 6 save is a waste of points. So great weapons on the charge is my preferred option.

I've also used dwarfs with crossbows as artillery support and found this to be extremely advantageous. The fought to the last stunty. The cost adds up this the crossbow and handweapon and shield but I've found this gives them punch the whole game through.

So that my preference and how I play them.

[Hendrid]

I've been using DOW as an allied contingent for some time in a lot of games with a reasonable amount of success.

I chop and change a bit to see what works, but also just because I like the Perry Miniatures and like to do a bit of conversion as well.

Also, you can add a lot of character to an army, to keep in the empire HRE mould by using pike, duelists etc.

I would say though that from what I've seen in the clubs and tournaments that it's generally only Empire players that seem to use DOW much.

Vive la differance!

[Padre]

To add DOW to my Empire I like to use pike - especially Ricco's. I use a 33 block in BIG games, and a 20-25 block in smaller games, and I place them central in my line, their flanks guarded. Still not 100% sure on whether their best value for points, but I love seeing a massive block with 4" pikes in my army, and I enjoy watching enemies tryign to avoid them.

[spite]

DoW in Empire armies do rock, I myself have been using them for some time and find they add a bit of extra flexibility that some Empire units don't have.

The Nilla versions are far better than the RoR versions point for point but for a few aren't bad; Volands and Bronzinos are the exceptions and I am glad I haven't bought any of those absolutley useless Birdmen Of Catrazza.

My favourites are:

Duellists with Pistols
Light Cav with Spears
Heavy Cav (Unbarded)
Ogres with GW's
Halflings with Bows (Comedy )
Cannon
Halfling Hot Pot!

Cheers.

[Rufas the Eccentric]

One additional use for dwarfs is to equip them with x-bows, HA & shields.  Imperial gunners and x-bow men are unarmored and die like dogs as soon as anything reaches them.  In addition they are generally too far from the general to benefit from his leadership.  My standard tactic is modeled from the Frederick the Great article in the War Room.  One flank is static with shooting and war machines, the center is two blocks of swords with FC detachments, and the far flank is knights and pistoliers.  The center and the far flank advance.  However, even the slowest enemy units will reach the static flank by turn three.  Dwarfs with st & to of 4, a 3+ armor save in close combat and a leadership of 9 are like a rock compared to the Imperial choices.  I like them so much that I am including two DOW units in the Dwarf army I am building to obtain the heavy armor benefit unavailable to the standard Dwarf quarellers and thunderers.

Ironmonger says "No self respecting dwarf should ever appear on the field without heavy armor."     

[reiksmarshall]

"And no empire character should appear without full plate!"

DoW are a seriously cool addition, but I'm surprised no-one has mentioned any Regiments of Renown. The Cursed Company, though HUGELY expensive are rather good value against non-undead folks, and the pike blocks are also rather good (including the under-rated Alcatani fellowship - most foes are WS4 anyway, so they hit you on 3s and them on 4s regardless - they are bargain pikemen against anyone bar chaos warriors and goblins). Voland's Venators add a record 3rd S4 cavalry unit (4 if you include the griffon legion, which are a semi-DoW unit). And what RoR article would be complete without Arsanil and the griffon mounted elector, with captasuses in tow, performing sick and wrong things to enemy infantry blocks. Who says Bretonnians get to have all the fun?

[Sir_Nicolae]

I plan on using a block of pikemen and a unit of DoW light cavalry. Is there any recomendations about unit sizes and/or equipment to take on them? They'll both be going in a TVI-esque list of roughly 2,000 pts.

[JohnHwangEmp]

Pikemen are just Spearmen which trade their Detachment rules for more attacks. DoW usually take Pikemen in blocks comparable to Empire, anywhere from 25-30 models seems typical.  DoW Pike usually deploy pretty deep, to maximize the 4 fighting ranks.  So a brick of 5x5 or 6x5 would be standard.  Armour to taste.

In general, Pike are for defensive players with a strong Magic (and shooting) phase.  For cheaper points, you can take Spears with FC dets.  However, dets require more total frontage, whereas Pike are *dense*.  If there is a chokepoint on the map, a block of Pike will hold that far better than Spears ever could.  Modern DoW players seem to reduce their usage of static Pike, with its vulnerable flanks.


DoW Light Cav seems to be taken with relatively light kit, if any:  5 basic Light Cav, possibly with Spears, possibly with Musician.  Some take "Medium" (Unbarded Heavy) Cav.

[Hendrid]

In general, Pike are for defensive players with a strong Magic (and shooting) phase.

I don't think I agree with this one. Using Pikes defensively usually means no-one goes near them. Kind of an expensive way to guard a point in the line.

No I agree with the Swiss. Attack! Attack! Attack!

Your opponent will generally still try and avoid your pike or try and flank it. You can often control a game with good use of one or two medium sized Pikemen. I tend to avoid the RoR pike units as they are more expensive for not much more clout. Sometimes for a bit of Fluff.

[Pistol Pete]

If you like ogres, you can use the DoW ogres *or* the Ogre Kingdoms ogres.  OK ogre bulls don't have the great weapon option of DoW ogres, but they do impact hits on the charge, have ironfists (can be used as an extra hand weapon or a shield), and thier ogre clubs are armor piercing (you can also take a lookout gnoblar. Whooo.)

DoW ogres, on the other hand, can take great weapons which is a cheaper alternative to Ironguts.

[BK]

However Ironguts have nice Ld 8 that makes them less likely to panic if used as a flankers (out of the range of the Generals Ld)... IMO for me it is either Ironguts (3-4, musician always, standard sometimes) or DoW ogres.
One of the exceptions is our mega battles (4000-4500+4000-4500 of "good" side (empire and empire/brettonia/dwarves) vs same amount of points of bad side (chaos in all shapes and forms and vampires) when I take unit of 8 x bull with all kit and command - costs a lot but that is US 24 and a crapload of attacks...

[RGB]

I don't think I agree with this one. Using Pikes defensively usually means no-one goes near them. Kind of an expensive way to guard a point in the line.

No I agree with the Swiss. Attack! Attack! Attack!

Your opponent will generally still try and avoid your pike or try and flank it. You can often control a game with good use of one or two medium sized Pikemen.

Agreed. Pike is best used offensively, and if someone tries to get my flanks he gets stomped all over the place by knights.