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Author Topic: "Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"  (Read 1958 times)

Offline EsnRedshirt

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« on: March 07, 2004, 04:47:46 PM »
I'm starting to think some people who should know better are actively hosing me. I'm still a relative newbie- I just started playing in November. Last time I played at the GW store, I was informed that my Captain on a Pegasus was in line of sight to the enemy spellcasters, even though he was directly behind cavalry, because he was on a monster base, and therefore larger than the knights. Additionally, the knights could see over the skirmishing archers in front of them, since they were mounted.

"Wait a second," say I, "that's not how I've played the game. Ever."

I get a second opinion, from another experienced player, and friend of the opponent, who backs it up entirely.

"Wait- if this base size thing is correct, then what's the use of the special rule for Large figures? You're treating the Pegasus as a Large figure because of the monster base, even though it does not have that rule. Where in the rulebook does it say this?" I ask.

"Oh, it's in the Line-of-Sight stuff."

"Hmmm, I'll have to re-read that section tomorrow when I have a chance." I've been wrong before- it's a large rule book, and I don't have it memorized. So my Captain (who was the general as well) spent much of the game hiding behind a forest to avoid pot-shots, unable to offer leadership to my core infantry troops.

When I re-read the rulebook, I started to wonder exactly which rules these guys were using.  Especially since the opponent who foisted this rule off onto me was a three-year veteran player, as well as being a Red Shirt on the clock.

Said employee then proceeded to take on a faux-Transylvanian accent and taunt me as his VC army ("Don't worry, this is a really sucky VC army. Totally weak,") completely massacred my forces.

Just yesterday, I was talking with another VC player who informed me that he was completely unaware of the particular magic item combo which the employee had been using, which made the general both immune to everything but magic, and immune to Combat Resolution damage. I guess it's possible the VC general was alive, since it was a Necromancer rather than a Count, but it didn't help that he kept taunting me ("Come on, shoot me, I dare you!") and using it to try and block LoS to his other caster.

Other anecdotal evidence suggests some of the employees there specifically build forces geared to destroying whatever their opponent is fielding... I'm starting to believe this, as they always ask what army you're playing before they select which army to play against you. I could always decide to field a different army before I set it on the table, but I've only got one army painted and based- my Empire army- so that's the only thing I can field.

So, I guess the point of this whole lengthy rant is that I'm now hesitant to play at the GW store at all anymore, which is sad, because it's the place where I play most often (since it's often tough to get a group together outside of the store.) I've heard horror stories from other people concerning playing at GW stores. Could it be they're true?

Offline squig87

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2004, 05:23:19 PM »
My brother used to work for GW. It has never seemed a place for me or anyone over 13 to game really. I play at home and at an independent stockist that aims at the older market so many of the WHFB players are older.

Squig
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Offline CM Dante

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2004, 05:49:02 PM »
I've seen this happen before but not with a red shirt.
It is sometimes the case with the more disreputable veterans (those who have played for a few years and really hate to lose, then complain about hellblaster etc) will try to bend the rules in their favour when playing newer gamers to avoid defeat at the hands of someone less experienced than they.
It really is a sad thing but I would have expected a member of the staff to help you out and inform you of the actual rules rather than cheat. :roll:

Cheers,

Dante

Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2004, 06:13:08 PM »
The next time anyone claims stuff like the pegasus being visible behind the knights, demand him to show where it states so in the rulebook rather than just let him "convince" with a "it is there".
The only good thing about 7th ed heads is that they look particularly inbred and superstitious which is perfect for Stirlanders

Offline forster925

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2004, 06:19:45 PM »
Those line of sight rules they were using are a complete fabrication.

Check page 59 of the rulebook, second column, paragraph that starts with "Troops."

(I'm not sure how strict GW is on posting rulebook quotes to help people out, so I'll play it safe for now :) )

Anyway, it clearly says that you can't shoot through other troops unless one of you is a large target.  It has to say in your rules that you're a large target; it has nothing to do with the size of your base.  A Pegasus is not a large target.

However, (different rule) he is significantly larger than the nearby cavalry for the purposes of targeting single characters (see page 97 -- Proximity to Friendly Troops).  If the enemy has line of sight, he could be picked out as a shooting target based on the rules on shooting at characters (which are negated if the character is mounted on a monster).  He gains no benefit from being within 5" of other troops because the Empire has no comparable troops.

Still, though, being behind even infantry would be enough to block line of sight.

And cav seeing over infantry is completely false as well...

I don't have VC book to confirm his magic item combo, but anyone who already cheats that much should not be given the benefit of the doubt. :|

-Scott

Offline PleaseGoAway

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2004, 06:38:27 PM »
I've got a VC book, he could have had

The Flayed Hauberk 30 pts
1+ Armour save

Wristbands of Black Gold 30 pts
3+ ward save from any missile fire (normal, magic, warmachines and templates)

Offline EsnRedshirt

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2004, 06:52:05 PM »
No, it was definately an item that made him ethereal (and hence immune to all but magic damage.)

The trick is how the heck is that combined with "immune to combat resolution"? (He was also ready to gleefully play this combo in a 500 point Warhammer-in-a-Flash game.) Wish I could do that- I'd love to have an unstoppable character.

Offline CM Dante

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2004, 07:03:30 PM »
If you mean a border patrol game (which im guessing u must because by normal rules he would still have to have 2 core units - not sure about border patrol limitations on this) then I'm pretty sure there are limits to character costs. I think its 125pts?
Not sure though, I don't play border patrol.

Cheers,

Dante

Offline Vek

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2004, 07:06:07 PM »
Nope. No such combo.

The item he was using was "Cloak of Mist and Shadows". All it does it make the wearer etheral. A couple of things about it, though:

a) As long as the guy is wearing the Cloak, he can't attack. He can only cast spells
b) Nothing makes you immune to Combat Res damage. Nothing. Combat Res wounds cannot be saved or regenerated (Although they can be healed with IOK). And, everything in the VC army is dead, unless it says "Alive" under their rules in the army book. Necro's are dead, dire wolves are dead...Everything is dead, unless it says otherwise.

The guy was cheating.
--Vek

Offline queek

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2004, 07:14:42 PM »
what Vek said.   8)

Offline PleaseGoAway

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2004, 08:19:39 PM »
I can't see how he got a combo like that. Just ask him to show you how he has got that. Which by the sounds of it, he won't be able to.

Offline Mad Ulric

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2004, 08:22:44 PM »
I heard a reliable story about  a UK GW tournie.  A friend of mine had a dispute, and showed his opponent the rule in the book.  He still insisted on an umpire who refused to look at the rule book, ruled against my friend even though the rule book said otherwise and threatened my friend with a RED CARD.  He has never played again in GW tournies since.  Can't say I blame him.   My experience of two events is not overly impressive.  If you are in or close to the UK, the Warhammer Players Society events are the best organised.  Especially the GT.  Recommended.

Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2004, 09:35:13 PM »
Quote from: Vek

Nothing makes you immune to Combat Res damage. Nothing.


Fear combat resolution! Check my signature.
The only good thing about 7th ed heads is that they look particularly inbred and superstitious which is perfect for Stirlanders

Offline EC.Sylvania

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2004, 09:48:26 PM »
EsnRedshirt,

I told you so when we played (great game by the way) last night.  The GW VC guy was abusing and making up all sorts of rules. ;) You forgot to add that he was also challenging with champions who were not in base to base contact (though his "immune to CR" general was easily the worst abuse).

With Konrad von Richtmark, Queek, and the others backing up actual rules, you should feel plenty confident to go back to the GW store and take on that VC army fair and square.

Offline Clarkarias

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2004, 11:00:42 PM »
The only undead item that has an effect on Combat Resolution damage is in the TK army.  It's an armour, I think the "Scorpion Armour" or some such thing.

There is nothing in the VC army that does such a thing

Red Shirts and The Disreputible Vets, as mentioned above, have a tendancy to cheat to win.
Actually, forget Karl-Franz. I want rules for Thyrus Gorman on a dragon. - Rufus Sparkfire

Offline EsnRedshirt

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2004, 11:33:23 PM »
Quote from: EC.Sylvania
EsnRedshirt,

I told you so when we played (great game by the way) last night.  The GW VC guy was abusing and making up all sorts of rules. ;) You forgot to add that he was also challenging with champions who were not in base to base contact (though his "immune to CR" general was easily the worst abuse).

With Konrad von Richtmark, Queek, and the others backing up actual rules, you should feel plenty confident to go back to the GW store and take on that VC army fair and square.
He never actually challenged without a champion in base to base- I think that happened in a game with a different player. But regardless, I have no time to play since I'm starting overtime soon, plus it's "boat month", so all the games are naval battles, and I have no boats. At least it gives me time to finish up my KotWW and get ready to kick some butt with cavalry.

Offline anarchistica

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"Okay, so, which rulebook are we using?"
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2004, 09:55:11 AM »
GW redshirts know nothing (they're all from Barcelona). If they're not making up stuff (heavy cavalry can't enter forests), they go and play things wrongly for the flow of the game or just because they are ignorant. I once watched a 'show' battle and i walked away after 2 turns to prevent myself from constantly correcting the redshirt. Handguns could move-and-fire, choppas didn't work, outnumbering didn't exist, etc. Another redshirt did correct him, but it was quite pathetic...
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