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Author Topic: Dogs of War.... 2.0  (Read 17443 times)

Offline Pistol Pete

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Dogs of War.... 2.0
« on: February 18, 2009, 11:20:05 PM »
I love Dogs of War.  Not as much as I love Empire, but they're still near and dear to me.  Despite the fact that their rules absolutely suck.

So I decided I'm going to give something back to the friggin' gaming community.

God knows GW is in no hurry to give Dogs of War a revamp, but I don't see whay we can't do an overhaul of then rules to bring them back from the brink of extinction.  If we're successful, GW may actually pay attention to what we've done and might bring DoW back.  But even if GW ignores us, I'll still consider it a success if we can build a workable army list that gives the Tileans a workable army, and makes mercenaries a fun and thematically appropriate addition to the army.

So heres a quick overview of what I'm thinking:

1) An overhaul of the basic DoW list

   A- Magic Items (DoW have only the basics)
   B- Characters (Boring for the most part, and paymaster is an annoying bag of suck)
   C- Troop choices (The list needs to be recosted and balanced a bit, but isn't terrible)

2) An overhaul of the Mercenary system
   
   Let's face it, some DoW choices don't make sense.  Are the beastmen really going to convince a Tilean cannon crew to join them?  Unlikely.  Will the lizardmen hire a bunch of pikemen to defend thier temples?  Unlikely.  Would any human mercenary trust the rat men?  Tileans HATE ratmen!  But how about some thematically appropriate options that will fit in with the various armies harmoniously?  This will be a tricky thing to balance but I think it's one of the things that will make or break this project.

3) Regiments of Renown
   
   The existing lists not only suck, but they are thematically inappropriate for many armies.  I think each army deserves a little bit of love when it comes to RoR, and I think this could be a colorful and fun part of the list.

4) Kislev

   We can adapt the Kislev list to work with the DoW list I think.  Kislev, like DoW, deserves another chance.   :closed-eyes:


So there's the gist of it.  I'll need some input and playtesting from youse guys to make this happen. If you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2009, 11:21:14 PM »
Core Troops:

Pikes are largely the same, though the strikes first rule has changed to "defended obstacle".  Zweihanders have replaced duellists, and serve to add a bit of long term power to support pike units.  Mercenary troops add some bulk foot troopers to the field (something DoW lacked), and crossbowmen get a repeater crossbow for the champion since the crossbow is Tilea's signature weapon.

Heavy Cavalry is largely the same, with only a recosted command unit, and a magic banner option.  Light Cav has been tweaked a bit more, allowing the champion +1 BS and +1 Attack, as well as a points tweak.


Pikemen- 8 points
Unit size 10+
Hand Weapon, Pike, Light Armor.  May upgrade to Heavy armor for 2 pts.
Special rules- Fights in 4 ranks, Two hands, counts as a defended obstacle when charged from the front, +1 str when charged by cavalry, chariots, or monsters

Zweihanders- 8 points.
Unit size:  5-10
Weapon Skill 4
Hand Weapon, Light Armor, Great Weapon.  May Upgrade to heavy armor for 2 points.
Special rules-Skirmishers, Detachment- You may have 1 unit Zweihanders for each unit of pikemen in your army.  Each unit must be deployed at the same time as the pikemen unit to which it is attatched, and must be deployed withing 3" of the parent unit.

Mercenary Troopers- 5 points. 
Unit size 10+
Light Armor, Hand Weapon, Halberd.  May purchase shields for 1 point, or swap thier halberds for shields at no cost.

Crossbowmen- 8 points. 
Unit Size: 10+
Crossbow, Hand Weapon
Musician 5 pts, Std Bearer 10 pts, Champion 5 points
Champ has option for Tilean repeater crossbow: 2x shots, 10 points

Heavy Cavalry- 19 pts
Unit size
Champion- 15 pts
Standard Bearer- 15 pts
Musician- 8 pts
Equipment- Hand Weapon, Lance, Heavy Armor, Shield, Warhorse.  May add barding for 2pts per model.
One unit of Heavy Cavalry may carry a magic Banner up to 50 points.

Light Cavalry- 11 points

Champion- 14 pts (+1 BS and +1 attack)
Standard Bearer- 10 points
Musician- 8 points
Equipment- Hand Weapon, Warhorse.  May have spear- 1pt, Bow- 3pts, and/or Shield- 2pts
One Unit of Light Cavalry may carry a magic banner up to 25 points.

Your input is appreciated.  :::cheers:::
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Offline Valetus

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2009, 11:29:51 PM »
- Champions only ever have +1BS or +1A, not both.
- Why would you want to replace duelists as they are one of the unique units to the army?
- Paymaster should certainly be retained for thematic reasons. Kind of like Brettonians having the battle standard.
- Pikes for 8 points is incredibly cheap if you consider their power in games


I think its important to ensure that the list does not simply became a more "historical" version of the empire army but remains distinctly different. Dont get me wrong I love dogs of war though and use pikemen whenever I can.

Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2009, 11:39:05 PM »
In before PhillyT demands you let DoW/Pikes die a natural death.

Keep Duellist. But I do love the idea of skirmishing human greatsworders. With floppy hats.

Changing Always Strikes First to Defending an Obstacle is an interesting change, and justifies the lowering in points, as most armies have plenty of things with high initiative. And some have a lot with lower.
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Offline Markw

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2009, 11:39:40 PM »
I thought I posted this somewhere but I cant find it..

During the Warhammer Seminar at GW headoffice last weekend someone asked if a DoW revamp was due/inc. In a nut shell they said no. They basically said it was a nice idea but felt it debalanced some armies. Armies can kinda loose its identity with DoW.

They did, however, say that if people wanted to use them they are welcome too (as ts our game we play) but not to expect any new offical stuff being released.

I personally think there should be a DoW army book, but each unit will only join certain armies - eg not allowing Halfling hot pot joining a choas army..

On a side not, gif Empire armies Pikemen!

Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2009, 11:40:50 PM »
Take Shields of halberdiers, and give them the option to upgrade to heavy armour instead

Have a look at the "Armies of Chivalry" army lists from WAB, the Imperial German lists in there are worth looking at for inspiration since they are pretty much the template for WFB DoW imo.

Throw in a dash of Condottier and Free Companies and you've cracked it...oh yeah and as MarkW says, be much more restrictive on which special units can join which army lists...
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2009, 12:13:01 AM »
Quote
- Champions only ever have +1BS or +1A, not both.
- Why would you want to replace duelists as they are one of the unique units to the army?
- Paymaster should certainly be retained for thematic reasons. Kind of like Brettonians having the battle standard.
- Pikes for 8 points is incredibly cheap if you consider their power in games

Champions- Yeah, I know champs sually only get +1 BS or +1 Attack, but DoW light cav are like none other in the warhammer world in that they can actually be outfitted for many roles.  Given that they are relatively wimpy, I don't think giving them a very minor boost of +1BS is unbalancing, and I think the old rules forcing them to lose the extra attack if they carried a bow was weak.  So there.

I love Duellists, and think they're neat, but with the other changes I've made to the list, i think they'd be a bit unbalalnced.  I also think that the Zweihanders and Mercenary troopers compliment the pikes better.

Paymaster- If nothing else I'll keep him as an optional character.  IfI can find something interesting to do with him, I may make him a mandatory character, as before, but in general, I frown upon such things.  Suggestions are welcome.

Pikes-  I think pikes are just about right at 8 points each, given the power level of current armies.  I'd consider bumping them up to 9 points, but honestly, I think most folks would want them with heavy armor for 10 points, which seems reasonable.

How about this: No armor for pikemen, at 8 points, and you may add light armor for 1 point and heavy armor for 2 points?

Quote
Take Shields of halberdiers, and give them the option to upgrade to heavy armour instead

I hear what you're saying but give me a chance to explain:  These are NOT supposed to be heavy troopers, but simple squishy blocks of footsloggers to add static CR.  Remember, they're being supported by pikes and Zweihanders with great weapons to add kills.  The halberds are there mostly for style, since halberd and pikes look so great together.  However those that wish may add shields for a point or simply swap the halberds altogether, giving you many options for these troopers.




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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2009, 12:18:23 AM »
Quote
Take Shields of halberdiers, and give them the option to upgrade to heavy armour instead

I hear what you're saying but give me a chance to explain:  These are NOT supposed to be heavy troopers, but simple squishy blocks of footsloggers to add static CR.  Remember, they're being supported by pikes and Zweihanders with great weapons to add kills.  The halberds are there mostly for style, since halberd and pikes look so great together.  However those that wish may add shields for a point or simply swap the halberds altogether, giving you many options for these troopers.

But...Halberds NEVER fought with shields so they are totally out of context (and the whole concept is so offensive to my sense of verisimilitude it would spoil the rest of the list for me) and they did have heavy armour and are tactically more flexible than pike, and should be a whole lot more manouverable

Again, check out "Armies of Chivalry" since it uses the same basic rules
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2009, 12:29:31 AM »
And now for the specials and rares:

Special Troops

Raiders (0-1)- 6 points
Unit size: 5-10
WS 4
Hand Weapon.  May take an additional hand weapon for 1 point.  May take light armor for 1pt.  May take a shield for 2 pts.  May take bows for 3 points.
Scout, Skirmishers

Paymaster's bodyguard-  I'd like to do something intersting with these guys, but I'm not sure yet.

Ungol Horse Archers- Kislev Rules

Winged Lancers- Kislev Rules

Dwarfs- No rule changes

Halflings- No Changes

DoW Light Cannon- Same as usual, although a special now instead of a rare

Ogres-

Ogre Bulls- See OK book
Ironguts- See OK book
Leadbelchers (0-1)- See OK book

Gnoblar Entourage- A DoW player may take a single (0-1) unit of Gnoblars as a core choice if he takes an ogre unit.  These represent gnoblars that have tagged along to serve thier masters.  Only one gnoblar unit may be taken in this manner, no matter how many ogre units you have.  This unit must be deployed at the same time as one of your other ogre units, and within 3" of that unit.
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Rare Troops

Halfling Hot Pot- If you have a unit of halflings, you may take 2 hotpots as a single rare choice. Any other hotpots beyond these two count as a single rare choice each.

Giant- Standard Rules

Ogre Maneaters (0-1)
Maneaters count as a single rare choice if you have at least one other ogre unit in your army.

The Ogres been streamlined to the DoW list.  The Bulls and Ironguts have replaced the old DoW ogres, and the Leadbelchers have become a 0-1 unit to reflect their greater rarity compared to Bulls and Ironguts.  I really didn't think they deserved a rare slot.  I think the bonus gnoblar entourage is a fluffy and fun adddition without being too nasty.  Maneaters are also 0-1 units but they only take up a single rare choice now, if you've got any other ogres.  I changed this to reflect the fact that ogres would be more likely to serve as DoW mercs than they would with other armies.

Dwarves are fine as is and need no changes.  Giants were added.  Halflings got a minor tweak:  You can take 2 hot pots for one rare slot if you've got a unit of halflings in your army.  Cannons have moved from rare to special, and Kislev Winged Lancers and Ungol horse Archers have been added.  Norse maurauders have been dropped, but I didn't care for them thematically (too chaotic), and the models were atrocious.

I added the raiders as a multipurpose scout unit, sort of taking the place of duelists, and making for a dangerous little unit.  Sort of like huntsmen on steroids.  Should be a good war machine hunter or anti-scout unit.

I'm not sure what to do with the paymaster's bodyguard.  I may make it a 0-1 core unit if a paymaster is taken to relieve some of the crowding from the specials.

This list makes the Dogs of War a very versatile Empire style list with less shooting, and more emphasis on movement and combat.  This should be a blast to play, with loads of interesting builds, but shouldn't be too overpowered.  Your input is, as always, welcome.  
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2009, 12:37:09 AM »
Quote
But...Halberds NEVER fought with shields so they are totally out of context (and the whole concept is so offensive to my sense of verisimilitude it would spoil the rest of the list for me) and they did have heavy armour and are tactically more flexible than pike, and should be a whole lot more manouverable

Again, check out "Armies of Chivalry" since it uses the same basic rules

The mercenary troopers are not supposed to be wealthy, but rather poor footsloggers hired on the cheap.  Heavy armor, in my opinion is more for elite troopers.

I was thinking something more along the lines of bucklers, rather than full-sized heater shields, which could conceivably be carried while using a halberd.  Check out the rest of the army list.  It's NOT lacking for combat power, and I think heavy armor would arguably be too much for these galoots.

Would you feel better with an elite bodyguard unit of str 4 halberdiers in heavy armor for the paymaster's bodyguard?  This is one of the Ideas I'm currently kicking around...
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Offline Von Kurst

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2009, 12:41:54 AM »
I love Duellists, and think they're neat, but with the other changes I've made to the list, i think they'd be a bit unbalalnced.  I also think that the Zweihanders and Mercenary troopers compliment the pikes better.

Paymaster- If nothing else I'll keep him as an optional character.  IfI can find something interesting to do with him, I may make him a mandatory character, as before, but in general, I frown upon such things.  Suggestions are welcome.

Pikes-  I think pikes are just about right at 8 points each, given the power level of current armies.  I'd consider bumping them up to 9 points, but honestly, I think most folks would want them with heavy armor for 10 points, which seems reasonable.

How about this: No armor for pikemen, at 8 points, and you may add light armor for 1 point and heavy armor for 2 points?

Great idea.  I imagine we will all have opinions.
Another vote for keeping Duelists since they are one of the units that doesn't suck. Adding other units doesn't unbalance the list, this is GW after all.  Besides I thought this was a call for ideas and play testing?  :icon_lol:
The paymaster could become the free hero slot like a Bretonnian BSB.  His main suckiness is a lack of survivability. Change his possible selection of magic items or basic equipment and he becomes better.

Pikes are currently over valued, so I think dropping the points to 8 with light armor fixes that.

And put move and shoot back in Bronzino's and its a must have.  (Needs a fix for grapeshot though...)

I also recommend the Crisis in Marienburg lists as a starting point for units and points fixes.
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Offline PhillyT

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2009, 12:46:12 AM »
- Champions only ever have +1BS or +1A, not both.

Actually DE's champions in at least a few units do get both.

Phil
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2009, 12:48:52 AM »
Shame bucklers are represented, it might be a nice addition (+1 as in hand to hand only)

Make the halberdiers start with no armour, but allow the upgrades to light and heavy?

As a historical note, mercenaries were exactly the sort of people who would have the cash for armour, the reason for the puffed and slashed look was simply because they had so much cash to spend.

For cheap troopers, hired to bulk out the army, why not spears or free company? But remember a mercenary force should have plenty of firepower, after all, its costing a lot for someone to pay these guys.

(I like the army list so far, I have to point out, just this little sticking point)

One other suggestion - often landsnecht forces would have what they called the Folorn Hope - a unit of halberdiers or greatswords that would lead the way into the enemy lines, low chance of living, very high pay if you did - one unit of GS or halberds can be upgrated to Folorn Hope at x cost and get the unbreakable trait.
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Offline PhillyT

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2009, 02:13:39 AM »
Explain why you are referring to the landsketchers if the DoW army is meant to be Telian?  I thought regular Empire was the landsketchers of the Warhammer world.  Except that they have robots.  And tanks.  And griffins.  And magic.  And crazy relgious guys.  And spears.

Phil
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Offline Michael W

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2009, 02:47:00 AM »
I like some of the ideas - very much agree with the Defended Obstacle aspect for pikes - but this is leaning too much "Empire" and not enough "Merc."

So general thoughts, from the top...

Paymaster as an option - and the only way for DoW to get a Battle-Standard-Equivalent.  Of course, he can't actually take a magic standard.  Maybe render his unit Stubborn?  Keep the BSB trait, though.

Pikes - lose the +1 Strength thing.  8 pts for light armour, 4 ranks, and a defended obstacle that you carry around with you.  Sounds awesome to me, and gives Pikes the ability to negate the Cavalry Lance - and thus perhaps win a combat or two.

Zweihanders, Mercs, & Duellists - these should be one option.  A unit of humans with hand weapons; option to skirmish, option for armour/heavy armour, option for pistols OR shields, option for spears, and option for great weapons.  Simply called "Mercenaries."

Crossbows - add in options for light/heavy armour and pavises.  I like the repeater crossbow.   :happy:

Light Cav - Add option for crossbows (ie, Tilean horse).  Keep the +1 BS and A for champ.

Heavy Cav - switch to "Freelancers."  Start with only horse, heavy armour, and lance.  Option for shield and barding.  Start at 18 pts.

Keep the Light Cannon as a Rare choice.  I like the two-for-one Hot Pot.  Oh, and give the Light Cannon the option to buy the "Horse Artillery" option.

Drop the Ungols - they're practically mercenaries to the Kislevites, and far too uncommon to be in the DoW list.

Unsure on the Ogre Kingdoms stuff for now.


A few other thoughts.

Bring back the Birdmen!  Human profile, armed with light crossbow (ie, bow with armour piercing), and price them at about 15 pts/model.

Characters - what about a more..."multiracial" feel to them?  An option for an Orc, Elf, Dwarf, or Human general?  An elf, human, or goblin wizard?  A human or dwarven paymaster?  A human, dwarven, elven, orcish, or even ogre captain?

Along those lines, why not go more multi-racial with the whole list?  Hobgoblin wolf riders, Skaven skirmishers, Elven scouts, and Orc fighters could all make an appearance.  There's enough room in the Warhammer World to make space for such things; all the mercenaries in Tilea aren't human, after all, and all Dogs of War armies aren't (and shouldn't be!) necessarily Tilean.  Or even Estalian.

Final thought for now - a way to work Regiments of Renown.  Stop the whole "special write-up for every unit" thing.  Make it an upgrade - as follows.

One unit in the army may be upgraded to a Regiment of Renown.  The Regiment must have a standard, musician, and champion.  At a cost of 35 pts + 2 pts/model, all models in the unit gain +1 to WS and BS.  The Champion, in addition, benefits from +1 to WS and BS (in addition to the +1 from being a RoR), +1 S, +1 T, +1 W, +1 I, +1 A, and +1 Ld.
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Offline Von Kurst

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2009, 04:34:55 AM »
Pikes need the +1 strength bonus. The defended obstacle is an elegant idea but it really gives no advantage versus the newer armies since they will all strike before you and have a decent strength even without the charge bonus for lances. (Chaos/Blood Knights)
Pikes when I've gotten to use them keep cav, chariots and monsters back with strike first, +1 strength and lots of attacks.  Take that away and they'll roll right over you. Compare 20 strike first, S4 attacks against a charging giant with whatevers left strength 3 attacks after the roll off for initiative.

Like the simply 'mercenaries' suggestion.  Great possibilities.

X-bows--like that too.

Cav--nice. Really like the option for X-bows.

Ungols become human Light Cav regiment of renown option?

Cannon--define your terms.  A light cannon is not the standard DoW cannon.  Bronzino's guns are 'light'. St 7 range 24".  The DoW cannon choice is St 10 range 48".  It should not have a horse artillery option.  I like the cannon in Special.

I like the upgrade option for regiments of renown, but instead of only stats perhaps you could buy a fighting style or special rule similar to Saurus spawnings?

And then we get to the necessary but nearly impossible add non-humans besides Dwarfs, Ogres and halflings.  Huge undertaking.  It could be done by adding a core choice or 2 for every possible army.  And unearthing the 2nd and 3rd edition regiments of renown that never made the 5th edition.  There ought to be mercenary Orcs that fight for Ogres or Chaos. High Elves ought to fight for the Empire more often.

We only refer to Landsnechts because it irritates Philly.  I thought that was obvious. :icon_razz:
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2009, 04:44:56 AM »
Quote
Bring back the Birdmen!

Quote
And put move and shoot back in Bronzino's and its a must have.  (Needs a fix for grapeshot though...)

Remember that this is only the basic Dogs of War List.  Regiments of Renown are on the list of issues to be addressed, but not until I have hammered out the basic DoW rules first.  I still need to finish up the character and magic item selection, and of course there also needs to be some sort of playtesting of the whole mess.

As for Bronzino, the galloper guns are my favorite regiment of renown.  I think they actually work just fine, as is.  The Birdmen are also cool but presently *very* overcosted (a common problem with virtually all of the RoR).

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Paymaster as an option - and the only way for DoW to get a Battle-Standard-Equivalent.  Of course, he can't actually take a magic standard.  Maybe render his unit Stubborn?  Keep the BSB trait, though.

I'm leaning toward the idea of making the paymaster a mandatory character that doesn't take up a character slot; ie, you still; have to pay the points for him, but he doesn't count against your character limit.  I'm thinking he'll be a modest warrior (WS4, 2 attacks), but he'll make his unit stubborn (any unit he's in), and I think the paymaster's bodyguard should be immune to fear as long as he's in the unit.  This should make them a real tough nut to crack (at least until he's dead!).

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Characters - what about a more..."multiracial" feel to them?  An option for an Orc, Elf, Dwarf, or Human general?  An elf, human, or goblin wizard?  A human or dwarven paymaster?  A human, dwarven, elven, orcish, or even ogre captain?

While this is an exciting concept, I think there's already a lot going on, and I don't want to dillute the Tilean angle too much.  Also, many of those races mentioned would not work well with humans.  The elves don't seem to be very inclined toward mercenary work in general (Arsinil seems to be the exception).  DE might be inclined to fight for pay, but they'd also probably be very difficult to control, and likely to ruffle the feathers of the humans who hired them.  Betrayal is also likely.  Gobbos and humans have a rocky history, and they seem a little too undisciplined for merc work.  Chaos is also not really workable (except, perhaps, as a cult army).  I think these races would work as regments of renown (under the control of a mercenary captain of thier own race), but they'd be a poor choice as a general troop type.

Humans Dwarves, Ogres, and Halflings seem to be the most common sort of mercs in the Tilean world, and I don't want to upset that balance, by adding too much else.  I think using other races as characters is even more of a problem, not because it's not fluffy (because a dwarf or ogre captain seems reasonable), but because it's potentially unbalalncing, and because it makes things even more complicated.  Remember that this list already has a lot of flexibility built into it from the ground up, and that it will also have access to a revamped regiments of renown.  I don't think it needs non-human characters.

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Crossbows - add in options for light/heavy armour and pavises.  I like the repeater crossbow.

I think pavises and heavy armor are two things crossbowmen don't really need.  Add an expensive character and a standard bearer and you've got something that could be a regment of renown.  Oh wait.... it already IS a regiment of renown! :icon_mrgreen:  I actually do have some ideas for some interesting types of units for the regiments of renown, but I think the basic units should be just that... basic.

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Heavy Cav - switch to "Freelancers."  Start with only horse, heavy armour, and lance.  Option for shield and barding.  Start at 18 pts.

Okay.  Wait... what?   :?  Why would you want heavy cav without shields?  A barding option is already there, and it can actually make a difference when you surprise your opponent with an extra 2" of movement, but why would you try to shave off a point for not having a shield?  I do however, like the name "Freelancers".

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Cannon--define your terms.  A light cannon is not the standard DoW cannon.

I use the term "light" cannon as opposed to "great" cannon.  When I mean galloper guns, I'll say galloper guns.  But bronzino is a regiment of renown and that means it is NOT a part of the basic DoW army list.
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Offline Michael W

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2009, 05:10:44 AM »
Pikes need the +1 strength bonus. The defended obstacle is an elegant idea but it really gives no advantage versus the newer armies since they will all strike before you and have a decent strength even without the charge bonus for lances. (Chaos/Blood Knights)
Pikes when I've gotten to use them keep cav, chariots and monsters back with strike first, +1 strength and lots of attacks.  Take that away and they'll roll right over you. Compare 20 strike first, S4 attacks against a charging giant with whatevers left strength 3 attacks after the roll off for initiative.
The +1 Strength so rarely actually helps, since Warhammer's armour system grants cavalry such obscene saves (ie, our own knights).  It's nice, but not necessary, against ogres and such.
   I have two reasons for arguing for no strength bonus.  First, it doesn't really matter that often.  Chaos Knights and Blood Knights are going to smash through your pikemen like twigs whether they have that +1 Str or not - as they should.  Against Ogres and such, Pikes deliver enough attacks to overcome such things.  Against more modest cavalry - like Bretonnian, Elven, or Imperial - the mere Defended Obstacle rule already makes pikes very tough, since those guys are now hitting at S3 or 4 instead of 5 or 6 (and the Brets don't get their Lance).  Pikes shouldn't be an unbreakable unit - just a tough nut to crack for non-ultra-elite troops.
  My second reason is mere cost.  At 10 pts per model, pikes right now are brutally expensive.  8 points seems fair for Defended Obstacle and Fight in Four Ranks (and their light armour).  You might even get away with 7 (but I doubt it).  But we need cheaper pikes in order to put them on the field effectively.  When character + Pikes = nearly a quarter of the army, that is WAY to expensive a unit for what it's going to do on the field.  I want their cost down, and that means keeping their abilities down, too.  Or just pretending that they're Dark Elves.   :dry:
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2009, 12:21:14 AM »
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The +1 Strength so rarely actually helps, since Warhammer's armour system grants cavalry such obscene saves (ie, our own knights).  It's nice, but not necessary, against ogres and such.
   I have two reasons for arguing for no strength bonus.  First, it doesn't really matter that often.  Chaos Knights and Blood Knights are going to smash through your pikemen like twigs whether they have that +1 Str or not - as they should.  Against Ogres and such, Pikes deliver enough attacks to overcome such things.  Against more modest cavalry - like Bretonnian, Elven, or Imperial - the mere Defended Obstacle rule already makes pikes very tough, since those guys are now hitting at S3 or 4 instead of 5 or 6 (and the Brets don't get their Lance).  Pikes shouldn't be an unbreakable unit - just a tough nut to crack for non-ultra-elite troops.
  My second reason is mere cost.  At 10 pts per model, pikes right now are brutally expensive.  8 points seems fair for Defended Obstacle and Fight in Four Ranks (and their light armour).  You might even get away with 7 (but I doubt it).  But we need cheaper pikes in order to put them on the field effectively.  When character + Pikes = nearly a quarter of the army, that is WAY to expensive a unit for what it's going to do on the field.  I want their cost down, and that means keeping their abilities down, too.  Or just pretending that they're Dark Elves.

Actually, you'll see that I reduced the pikemen's cost to 8 points with light armor included, though I kept the +1 strength.  Given that elite infantry have gotten extremely good and have gotten cheaper as well, I think 8 points is reasonable.  Especially since pikemen need to be deployed in big blocks to be effective (while elites can get away with two ranks).  Also, pikemen are slow, and relatively defenseless against missile fire.  200 points for a unit of 25 pikemen seems about right.

I'm actually considering dropping the light armor and making them 7 points (with optional armor upgrades) , but that might be too much.  Some playtesting is in order, I think. 
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2009, 12:24:38 AM »
Two things I think are missing from the dogs of war list are handguns and bows. They have pistols, so why don't they have handguns too?

Adding those two weapons makes sense, and makes the list more useful for converting historical wargame armies to warhammer (which is one of the main uses for the dogs of war list).
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Offline PhillyT

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2009, 01:18:50 AM »
Two things I think are missing from the dogs of war list are handguns and bows. They have pistols, so why don't they have handguns too?

Adding those two weapons makes sense, and makes the list more useful for converting historical wargame armies to warhammer (which is one of the main uses for the dogs of war list).

Why not just add pikes to the Empire list if you are going that way.   :icon_rolleyes:

I would suggest keeping it as close to the current DoW list as possible, not add a bunch of Empire things for no apparant reason.

Phil
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2009, 01:24:35 AM »
Handguns and bows are not purely Empire things. It makes no sense to have pistols but not handguns, as I already said.

I can see no reasonable objection to that.


Also, you lose eighty seven billion points for using the eye-rolling emoticon. It makes you look like a sulky teenager.  Though maybe that's a look you'd like to go for.
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Offline PhillyT

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2009, 01:28:17 AM »
Nah ah!

 :dry:

As for handguns, since they are so common, why wouldn't the goblins have figured them out yet?  Good point.  This whole revision thing is great!

Hell, since Ogres use handguns as pistols, and cannons as handguns, how great if we revise their cannons to be hellcannons and finish the whole thing off!

Oh yeah, we are on to something now!

Phil
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2009, 01:32:08 AM »
Yes, that does indeed sound like a rational consequence of my desire to allow human mercenaries to use handguns. You are a rare intellect.

However, it occurs to me that our hilarious squabble is a bit out of place in this thread. So, let's call it a draw and leave people to their dogs-of-war-related fun.
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Offline PhillyT

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2009, 01:33:42 AM »
Hmmm...

Well played Chemist.  Well played.

Phil
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