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Author Topic: Warhammer Community Survey  (Read 4691 times)

Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2018, 09:12:40 AM »
Not just marketing, but overall business strategy. One anecdote that never gets old in illustrating what happened to GW is (quoting from memory here) the notion uttered by some bigwig at GW that their key customers are those with annual household incomes of £50,000 and above, that the other poor plebs don't interest them. Business school bro wisdom at its best. Wisdom that might make conventional sense if you don't realize that without that community of poor plebs to play with, that rich high-spender wouldn't buy a shit-ton of GW products that mostly end up in a big pile of unpainted grey plastic and white metal.
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Offline Oxycutor

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2018, 05:26:41 PM »
I have a sneaky suspicion that Warhammer Community will be reporting that everything is awesome and fantastic and pure dead brilliant, and everyone loves what they've done with 40K and AoS and they're totally taking on board all our feedback that we want more biggerer tanks and monsters and deffo *loads* of Primarchs.

Just a feeling like...

It's more than likely, aye.

I'd also say more than likely, but because that's the impression I get overall from my hobby friends, they like the direction both systems are going.  And judging overall from discussion sites, Facebook, and other places that's the overall impression I get from the people commenting.

Offline Oxycutor

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2018, 05:51:21 PM »
There'd have not been need of a survey for these simple reasons:
Warhammer existed and had the best fluff and artists.
Annual manuals with FAQ and rules revision ( Warhammer Chronicles) and  selection of WD articles.
Free downloadable rules for skirmishes and smaller games on GW site( Skirmish, Path  to Glory, Warhammer Warbands) plus wallpapers,tutorials for painting, converting and sceneries and much more material on the old Gw site.
Listening to community when they did Dark elves errata (dark elves forum sent a letter to GW) plus answering mails in WDs.
Campaign books plus General's Compendium plus paper catalogues.
Proper Games Days  with previews and Golden Demons held in different countries.
Eeeeew all that sucked! :biggriin:

I don't think they'll ever go back to Warhammer as it was.  While as enjoyable as it was, the world itself made Lizardmen fighting Empire a stretch unless it took place in the Empire, and there's not much room left in the World that Was to create any new kind faction.  It had become stagnant.  While the Mortal Realms have barely begun being explored, and have the scope to be so indefinitely.

However, for the rest of your comments - in the last 18 months things have changed.   There is now an annual Generals' Handbook and Chapter Approved which will updated some minor changes to the core rules for matched play, and changes to points to try and balance things out.

There is a place for FAQs, which are now updated more frequently, with a new one coming out around a month after a new book is released, and they said there would be reviews of FAQs every few months

Skirmish and Path to Glory are pretty cheap supplements £6 and £15, and the Path to Glory one is much more expanded upon in it's current version.

There are daily videos for painting tips, every White Dwarf has painting sections, and there are frequent articles on the Warhammer Community site, and every other Tuesday they do a live stream on Twitch where you can ask about painting tips and more.

Dark Elves came out in the dark times, where you're right, they ignored all the above.  But I would bet if a new Aelf Battletome came out now, there would be an FAQ about a month later.

There was a global summer campaign - Seasons of War in 2016 and Fate of Konor in 2017.  AoS started with 5 campaign books.  it looks likely there will be more in the next couple of months for Malign Portents.   The General's Handbook doesn't just cover points updates, but features new ways to play and add things to games, Siege warfare was in this years book.   I would think a printed catalogue for the full range is a little old fashioned these days.  They were giving away a small gift guide catalogue in their stores and with orders leading up to christmas, but it only covered core stuff, and the start collecting and bundle boxes, plus a paint and tools list, plus a few recent releases.

Warhammer Fest last year had a heat of the AoS Grand Tournament, had a few previews for 40k and AoS, though still it was more Forge world and Specialist Games showing off stuff.  but they have over the last year previewed stuff at major tournaments, and game exhibitions.

So they are now doing a lot of those things you wanted.  Maybe not perfectly, and 2 years ago, we would have wished for all of it, but now we're getting most of it


Online Gankom

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2018, 05:55:19 PM »
There'd have not been need of a survey for these simple reasons:
Warhammer existed and had the best fluff and artists.
Annual manuals with FAQ and rules revision ( Warhammer Chronicles) and  selection of WD articles.
Free downloadable rules for skirmishes and smaller games on GW site( Skirmish, Path  to Glory, Warhammer Warbands) plus wallpapers,tutorials for painting, converting and sceneries and much more material on the old Gw site.
Listening to community when they did Dark elves errata (dark elves forum sent a letter to GW) plus answering mails in WDs.
Campaign books plus General's Compendium plus paper catalogues.
Proper Games Days  with previews and Golden Demons held in different countries.
Eeeeew all that sucked! :biggriin:

I don't think they'll ever go back to Warhammer as it was.  While as enjoyable as it was, the world itself made Lizardmen fighting Empire a stretch unless it took place in the Empire, and there's not much room left in the World that Was to create any new kind faction.  It had become stagnant.  While the Mortal Realms have barely begun being explored, and have the scope to be so indefinitely.

However, for the rest of your comments - in the last 18 months things have changed.   There is now an annual Generals' Handbook and Chapter Approved which will updated some minor changes to the core rules for matched play, and changes to points to try and balance things out.

There is a place for FAQs, which are now updated more frequently, with a new one coming out around a month after a new book is released, and they said there would be reviews of FAQs every few months

Skirmish and Path to Glory are pretty cheap supplements £6 and £15, and the Path to Glory one is much more expanded upon in it's current version.

There are daily videos for painting tips, every White Dwarf has painting sections, and there are frequent articles on the Warhammer Community site, and every other Tuesday they do a live stream on Twitch where you can ask about painting tips and more.

Dark Elves came out in the dark times, where you're right, they ignored all the above.  But I would bet if a new Aelf Battletome came out now, there would be an FAQ about a month later.

There was a global summer campaign - Seasons of War in 2016 and Fate of Konor in 2017.  AoS started with 5 campaign books.  it looks likely there will be more in the next couple of months for Malign Portents.   The General's Handbook doesn't just cover points updates, but features new ways to play and add things to games, Siege warfare was in this years book.   I would think a printed catalogue for the full range is a little old fashioned these days.  They were giving away a small gift guide catalogue in their stores and with orders leading up to christmas, but it only covered core stuff, and the start collecting and bundle boxes, plus a paint and tools list, plus a few recent releases.

Warhammer Fest last year had a heat of the AoS Grand Tournament, had a few previews for 40k and AoS, though still it was more Forge world and Specialist Games showing off stuff.  but they have over the last year previewed stuff at major tournaments, and game exhibitions.

So they are now doing a lot of those things you wanted.  Maybe not perfectly, and 2 years ago, we would have wished for all of it, but now we're getting most of it

^+1

Offline Oxycutor

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2018, 06:04:10 PM »
Not just marketing, but overall business strategy. One anecdote that never gets old in illustrating what happened to GW is (quoting from memory here) the notion uttered by some bigwig at GW that their key customers are those with annual household incomes of £50,000 and above, that the other poor plebs don't interest them. Business school bro wisdom at its best. Wisdom that might make conventional sense if you don't realize that without that community of poor plebs to play with, that rich high-spender wouldn't buy a shit-ton of GW products that mostly end up in a big pile of unpainted grey plastic and white metal.

I think something similar to that was mentioned in a AGM stock market report or something from the old CEO Tom Kirby.  He wrote a lot of nonsense in some of those, which did nothing but annoy fans.  One of them said that they would never do Market Research.   Fortunately the new CEO Kevin Rountree seems to be steering the company in a better direction

Offline Yodhrin

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2018, 03:09:27 AM »
There'd have not been need of a survey for these simple reasons:
Warhammer existed and had the best fluff and artists.
Annual manuals with FAQ and rules revision ( Warhammer Chronicles) and  selection of WD articles.
Free downloadable rules for skirmishes and smaller games on GW site( Skirmish, Path  to Glory, Warhammer Warbands) plus wallpapers,tutorials for painting, converting and sceneries and much more material on the old Gw site.
Listening to community when they did Dark elves errata (dark elves forum sent a letter to GW) plus answering mails in WDs.
Campaign books plus General's Compendium plus paper catalogues.
Proper Games Days  with previews and Golden Demons held in different countries.
Eeeeew all that sucked! :biggriin:

I don't think they'll ever go back to Warhammer as it was.  While as enjoyable as it was, the world itself made Lizardmen fighting Empire a stretch unless it took place in the Empire, and there's not much room left in the World that Was to create any new kind faction.  It had become stagnant. 

This is a common sentiment among people who appreciate AoS, and it's nonsense on toast.

We'll deal with the second point first and then go back to the first: no room for new factions? If they ransacked the history, myths, and folklore of the Middle East and Asia in the same way they did to Europe's, they could double the number of factions without breaking a sweat, and many of them would be just as outlandish and fantastical as what we've seen from AoS. Hell they hadn't even finished mining European stuff - Tilea and Estalia were little more than names and some broad archetypes, the Border Princes were rarely explored and never in any detail, even Norsca could have stood fleshing out more. So aye, without even going outside the Old World - Estalian Tercios, Tilean Condottieri, revamped Fimir, and a more explicitly-themed Norscan subfaction for Chaos. Araby and the Southlands could get you half a dozen more. Then you start along the Silk Road and don't stop until you hit Nippon, tapping some of the richest cultures on earth for ideas, you'd be at it for decades. EDIT: And that's just "present day" - you could get another decade or two's worth of releases by going back and covering War of Vengeance/ancient Nehekara-era, the proper age of Sigmar ie Warhammer Dark Ages, the not-Crusades and so on, and again that's just the existing history for the existing Old World factions, throw the southern and eastern lands and cultures into the mix and you again potentially double or more the amount of material.

As to the first problem - that was a problem of GW's own making, to the extent it actually exists at all(your chosen example isn't really an obstacle at all - the various New World colonies may not have lasted very long individually other than Skeggi, but there were a lot of them spread out over the centuries). They're the ones who insisted on focusing every narrative, every army book on the biggest, most world-shattering, most AWESUM *guitar solo* scale conflicts because they wanted to sell miniatures and simply couldn't grasp the idea that making people want to buy lots of your models is a better tactic than trying to force them to buy lots of your models by focusing exclusively on clash of civilisations catastrofiction with army sizes to match. Yeah, it's hard to come up with plausible reasons for huge armies from opposite sides of the world to clash constantly - so don't try. Focus on the kind of conflicts that the type of setting can support; when you target your narratives down to more everyday heroes and their reasonably-sized skirmish warbands of say 30-70ish models it's much easier to plausibly have them end up all over the place, because they would be. Raiding, tomb robbing, slaving, artifact hunting, seeking revenge or looking for new trade opportunities, a world like Warhammer's should be teeming with modest wandering warbands from every race constantly coming into conflict with "the locals" and each other. And don't try claiming you can't tell "epic" stories at that scale, because I read plenty of them in Black Library novels. The "minifactions" approach would work just as well for WHF as for AoS, with a little thought, and makes perfect sense at the more modest end of the army size scale.

They could quite easily have reworked WHFB along the broad lines of the LotR game, ie an AoS-style "skirmish" game as the baseline, with a streamlined rank & flank expansion for depicting larger conflicts if players wanted to.

The real reason for the switch, of course, has nothing to do with the Warhammer World being "stagnant", or lacking in opportunities to expand - GW want to write about Fantasy Horus battling Fantasy Emperor with their legions of goodie and baddie Fantasy Marines, and on the odd occasion when they deign to throw some support to non-Fantasy Marine style factions they don't want to have to be constrained by their own previous material in order to maintain internal consistency, so they simply wrote a setting that doesn't require internal consistency at all.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 03:20:30 AM by Yodhrin »

Offline Warlord

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2018, 03:13:45 PM »
Thats not entirely true. They also wanted to rename every race to something more... trademarkable.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2018, 04:08:06 PM »
Yep, plenty of room to not be stagnant in the Olde World, but heck, when they want try to trademark faction names, might as well try blowing up the Olde World.  Oh, and create Sigmarine and steampunk dwart factions. :icon_rolleyes:
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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2018, 04:58:34 PM »
Thats not entirely true. They also wanted to rename every race to something more... trademarkable.
Dawi,Druchii,Asur, Asrai,Skaven,Khemri....


So they are now doing a lot of those things you wanted.  Maybe not perfectly, and 2 years ago, we would have wished for all of it, but now we're getting most of it


It wasn't stagnant : when they did The Warhammer Realms: Lustria they said they'd have done more books like that exploring different Warhammer realms then there were thousands of years of history not explored. And there's no need in the fluff  to have everyone fight everyone like you never had Landsknechts against Samurais in real history. Not everything has to be possible in a fantasy or else you get aos .


And then the  worst and ironic thing : the    game that cancelled Warhammer making pass Skirmish,  Path to Glory as its own ideas. Like having Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower which is not set in the Mortal Realm of Warhammer and not in the Silver Tower of van Horstmann.

I've never wanted  Faqs and similar things for the sake of them,  there're many other companies who do previews and keep their game updated but they don't interest me, it was about Warhammer.


Online Gankom

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2018, 05:15:20 PM »
See, I was one of the people who did get annoyed trying to figure out why armies were actually fighting each other. The lore was amazing and important, but it was important because of the armies we played. It could get tiring trying to come up with campaigns explaining why my friends lizardmen where fighting my Karak-Hirn dwarves or Hochland Empire, with wood elves and tomb kings in the mix as well. Warhammer has always been about a setting for the game.

I also felt the Old world could get very crowded. There was a map that showed exactly what the world was like and were factions were. There were a few that could explored, I always wanted Cathay and Ind, but many of them were just more humans. Adding another new fantasy race would take a fair bit of explaining and need to be shoehorned in. Why is there suddenly a big kingdom of things in an area that's never been there before?

On top of that the Old World has been incredibly generic in many, many of it's attributes. It's great and one of the reasons I loved it and got into it, but from a company's business prospective that can lead to lots of problems. Trademarking, copyright, moving stuff forward and around, whatever. I can understand, even if I don't like it, why they did it.

They also bottlenecked themselves in from a fluff perspective. They'd locked themselves into a "The world WILL end and it Will end soon!!!!" narrative. They've managed to fix that to some degree in 40k, and perhaps it would have worked the same way in Fantasy if they'd gone that direction. Going back and doing historical event stuff is a great idea from a lore perspective, but from a model one all I can really see them being able to do is special characters. Everyone's still using bows and swords. There's no room for wacky inventions or big stuff, which again as a business they clearly want to do.

Out of curiosity, how many of you guys have been reading the new AoS fluff and lore that's been coming out? I see a lot of people complain about how there's no depths or consistency, but a lot of the recent stuff has been working to fix exactly that.

Online Gankom

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2018, 05:32:00 PM »
I also find it interesting that this kind of discussion takes over on a thread about GW putting out a community survey. It really seems like every discussion sooner or later turns back to the same thing. People unhappy about how Fantasy ended. I wrote plenty about that IN the survey, I hope others did as well. I doubt it will do anything, but at least your voice will be heard.

Fantasy and AoS aside, I really do think the new leadership at GW is starting a better path. A lot more focus on the community for one.

Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2018, 07:17:32 PM »
Quote.Gankom: Fantasy and AoS aside, I really do think the new leadership at GW is starting a better path. A lot more focus on the community for one.

This is the fact. You will always have the polarized views but their new direction is successful for both fantasy and 40k. It has revitalized their company and will surely show in the company statements coming up. Especially in an age where where electronic games have seemed to dominate and drown the physical fun of this hobby. I was a diehard fan of the old world in both games and invested thousands in models, books, codexes and such from 2005-2011. Now Iím rejuvinating almost every bit Iíve invested and find I have a lot more freedom and diversity to work with. Just getting the 40k back online and spent the last 1 1/2 with AoS and love it just as much. I feel a bit bad for the peeps who where so drawn to the old system but itís all a matter of what they like. There is a lot of paths they could have taken but fantasy was pretty much dead in the water a few years ago. We had a smal but die hard community but most of the stock stayed on the shelf and almost no one was buying it. 40k seemed to carry the load.
Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017
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Offline Yodhrin

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2018, 03:48:19 AM »
I have to say, I find it a little infuriating when people use the state fantasy ended up in as justification for ending it, when the state it ended up in was entirely GW's fault and had nothing whatsoever to do with the setting.

AoS, the IP, is not the reason GW's fantasy sales are up, all of the things they've been doing *around* the IP - community engagement, rapid and regular rules amendments, event support, narrative content and so on - are the reason and they could have worked just as well for the WHF IP.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2018, 04:32:39 AM »
I've become less angry about it, time has passed.  However, the state of fantasy was definitely a GW created issue.  No one can say they weren't creative in trying to resolve it, yet completely taking out the Olde World didn't need to happen, and W:AoS still could have arisen with in the context of the Olde World.

...

AoS, the IP, is not the reason GW's fantasy sales are up, all of the things they've been doing *around* the IP - community engagement, rapid and regular rules amendments, event support, narrative content and so on - are the reason and they could have worked just as well for the WHF IP.
:::cheers:::  Even the survey has potential, yet we'll see.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2018, 12:51:04 PM »
I have to say, I find it a little infuriating when people use the state fantasy ended up in as justification for ending it, when the state it ended up in was entirely GW's fault and had nothing whatsoever to do with the setting.

AoS, the IP, is not the reason GW's fantasy sales are up, all of the things they've been doing *around* the IP - community engagement, rapid and regular rules amendments, event support, narrative content and so on - are the reason and they could have worked just as well for the WHF IP.

Quite so.
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Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2018, 01:15:05 PM »
Quote yodhrin: AoS, the IP, is not the reason GW's fantasy sales are up, all of the things they've been doing *around* the IP - community engagement, rapid and regular rules amendments, event support, narrative content and so on - are the reason and they could have worked just as well for the WHF IP.

Not saying it couldnít have worked. They just didnít. And if it isnít the new system the sales are up, why are they? They had a game  that most people playing only needed bits and pieces to continue. Months would go by and nothing would move on the shelf. Thatís bad business if you want it to flourish.
Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017
Simple, You gut the bastard with your sword, the viking way.
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Mathi Alfblut Dec 9,2017
Get a binge of Yule ale, roasted boar and some proper axes and we will ALL be happy again!

Offline Warlord

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2018, 02:22:05 PM »
Adding another new fantasy race would take a fair bit of explaining and need to be shoehorned in. Why is there suddenly a big kingdom of things in an area that's never been there before?

Thats precisely what Ogre Kingdoms were. I remember the scepticism when they were added in 6th, and I also liked how balanced they actually made them. Until 8th edition that is.
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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2018, 04:15:05 PM »
I have to say, I find it a little infuriating when people use the state fantasy ended up in as justification for ending it, when the state it ended up in was entirely GW's fault and had nothing whatsoever to do with the setting.

AoS, the IP, is not the reason GW's fantasy sales are up, all of the things they've been doing *around* the IP - community engagement, rapid and regular rules amendments, event support, narrative content and so on - are the reason and they could have worked just as well for the WHF IP.

I am sorry if it's getting infuriating. In all honestly, I think I'm just equally annoyed how every discussion seems to just become another bitter pile in on what a disaster people feel it was. Like I said, even on a thread about GW finally ramping up community support and putting out surveys and listening to players, it keeps getting dragged back to "But they killed fantasy!"

I'd love the old world to come back. I still play it probably more then I play AoS. I just wish people could actually talk about something else without bringing it up non stop.

Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2018, 07:30:45 PM »
I don't buy the notion either that they would have had to keep on releasing new armies all the time for the game to stay alive.

If they would just have released a properly balanced 9th edition where all units of all armies are points-costed correctly, that would have led to massive sales as people would have availed themselves of all kinds of options that weren't previously viable. All without GW having to do anything else than keep their existing production lines cranking out stuff.

Even if not, as long as the game is worth your time to play, people would have kept wanting more. More armies, expanding existing armies. How many players would really end up in a state of stasis where there's literally nothing more they'd like to have, paint or play with unless a new army is released?
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Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2018, 07:52:53 PM »
I don't buy the notion either that they would have had to keep on releasing new armies all the time for the game to stay alive.

If they would just have released a properly balanced 9th edition where all units of all armies are points-costed correctly, that would have led to massive sales as people would have availed themselves of all kinds of options that weren't previously viable. All without GW having to do anything else than keep their existing production lines cranking out stuff.

Even if not, as long as the game is worth your time to play, people would have kept wanting more. More armies, expanding existing armies. How many players would really end up in a state of stasis where there's literally nothing more they'd like to have, paint or play with unless a new army is released?

Agree with all the above except a stagnation did occur. Enough for them to toss the lot. 8th ed was probably the last nail in the coffin. In hindsight that hurt a lot of people and maybe the way out should have been like the change in 40 k. Didnít wipe it out but definitely changed the parameters which it needed. They did learn something which included the audience in the process as well. It may be a catastrophic change but it allows the company to continue doing what it does. Certainly their might be room for the old world again in the future. At least there is a future that might be able to handle them again.
Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017
Simple, You gut the bastard with your sword, the viking way.
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Mathi Alfblut Dec 9,2017
Get a binge of Yule ale, roasted boar and some proper axes and we will ALL be happy again!

Offline Warlord

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2018, 03:01:33 AM »
To be honest, I think 8th edition and their pricing killed it.
They made the price to enter too high.

Units needing to 40-50 strong meant a significant investment to start an army, especially with boxes of 10 costing between $35-$70 AUD. Their box sets with multiple options may be easier for them to produce, but also raises the price because you are paying for more plastic than you need to use. Spare bits are good, but not everyone uses them, or stores them properly.
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Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2018, 03:07:49 AM »
👆 the unit sizes were getting extreme. However I was reading a thread in TGA about the fireslayers and they were talking normally about units of 90 to be really effective (!?). To me thatís insane and it takes away from having lots of variables. Not to say this is the norm of AoS but that shocked me.
Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017
Simple, You gut the bastard with your sword, the viking way.
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Mathi Alfblut Dec 9,2017
Get a binge of Yule ale, roasted boar and some proper axes and we will ALL be happy again!

Offline Warlord

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2018, 07:26:01 AM »
WTF

Yeah, sounds like the game could still be broken...?
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2018, 11:53:10 AM »
I think GW of late has again become the friendlier company it used to be. I would guess the present leadership would not have done exactly what the previous did, but then again the present leadership does not need to tighten the belt like the previous saw it had to. They sort of have a more professional business base to build on more optimistically and hobby-centric.

No, I don't think us oldtimers whishing WHFB back in that survey will ring a bell... Too many free mass-battles rules systems around, too many cheap plastic figures around, alternative or used.
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The 8th ed surely saw a significant loss in players/collectors. This loss is visible in the lack of new blood entering the hobby, and the stagnation of hobby and game related discussions. For example, this forum grew quieter during the 8th, a couple of years before the End Times. I cannot pinpoint an actual reason for this, and it might actually be about the changes in modern hobbies and the age structures. But talkin' of the 8th, some new key rules, focus shift from maneuvers to more killing (figures removed at a faster pace), unbalance within the books (some classic units remained/became rubbish), and bigger unit sizes (more figures needed for competitive play) likely alienated many old and potential new players. The GW policy of non-communicating surely didn't help. And the pricing of GW left room for competitors & the second hand market, and the Perry brothers leaving GW saw a huge loss of talent in the sculpting of the human factions, and the key game designers leaving GW meant a marked loss in ideas & variety.

Also there was something of an eight month hiatus of Fantasy sometime mid-8th ed, with no books and no figures. Whether that was the cause or an effect of GW decision to drop classic Fantasy I don't know, but it surely annoyed the customers even more.

(Yet for me personally, it was mainly the loudening voices of competitive players which alienated me from the gaming hobby and gaming discussions. This became a competitive sports where some very active & loud persons created a coach-like attitude. Cheap gurus for me.)

But GW, after all, is a company and the figures & games are a product. It's very, very exceptional for a company to continuously build on one game/product for 30 years. 30 years! Only Lego comes to my mind, and their visual image has changed a lot, and their thematic ranges tend to live only a couple years. Star Wars has a longer presence, but is more a series of new takes than building on some early 80's idea & figure scale range. And Star Wars gaming is a newer trend. Most games/product lines will never live 30 years, and their fans will have much less time in fandomizigin and building a connection. We were privileged, spoiled. And it's the spoiled children who are the hardest to bear.
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But all of that is history. I agree our moanings matter little, and everyone would be better doing what they like, not whining about what they don't like.

-Z
Simulation over gaming. Because fantasy matters.

Offline Midaski

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Re: Warhammer Community Survey
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2018, 12:24:03 PM »
You are all hedging around the cause of Fantasy's demise.

The final nail was when they stated 'we make miniatures' as they had totally lost the plot with the essence of the fact people played a game.
If they had applied the same attitude to the rules and codices that they seem to be doing now with 40K they would not have had a problem.

If Fantasy was a brilliant, balanced, fun game then the interest would be there - anywhere it was played observers would be excited by it and want to get involved.

Then 'value' starter boxes would get people in.
If the game attracts lots of new players then sales volume increases and they do not need to hike prices.
GOLDswords was another defining moment - the archer set was 10 models - c.95 pieces and £15.00 ............. The Greatswords was 10 models - some 65 pieces and £25.00 
The only justification was Core v Special - crazy!

The other things mentioned like "other races", the 'Armageddon scenario' every couple of years, the ability for skirmish and warband levels using the same figures as you grow an army, are all manageable if the basic rules set is good.

It went downhill once the accountants had a bigger say than the hobbyists within the company.
   
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Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

You mean they will be using Ouija boards instead of Tarot cards for their business plans from now on?