Topic: (Middenland) Seneschals aplenty... why not a Captain?

[Thorion]

So I've been working on my Army of Middenland, when I found myself staring at the Seneschal of the White Wolf leading the army.

Everyone on this forum, along with most people, seem to always gravitate towards the Seneschal over a Captain.  Go ahead and check the army lists listed in the Parade Grounds threads.

He (the Senschal) has worse Ballistic Skill than the Captain, but otherwise has all of the same exact stats  So why take a Seneschal that is more expensive than a Captain?  Think about this...

The Seneschal with a barded warhorse, full plate armor, and White Wolf (cavalry) hammer is 82 points.  That is 82 points for a +2 strength on the charge, +1 strength otherwise, strike in order, 2+ save.

The Captain with a barded warhorse, full plate armor, and a Greatsword (great weapon) is 76 points.  That is 76 points for a +2 strength on the charge, +2 strength otherwise, strike last except against other greatweapons or on the charge, 2+ save.

For someone mounted, I definitely prefer the greatweapon to the hammer.

Now, the Seneschal has a couple special abilities.  He and his unit hate enemies with leadership 6 and under, and are immune to panic.  

My question is, is it worth the difference?

If, for instance, you give the (fantastic) Wolf Helm of the Teutogens to both the Seneschal and the Captain, you have a 1+ save in both cases, the Seneschal hits with Str 6 (+1 - str 7 - if he passes a ld test) on the charge and strength 5 (+1 - str 6 - if he passes a ld test) at other times.  The captain, however, hits with a Str 6 (+1 - str 7 - if he passes a ld test) on the charge AND at other times as well!  That means something!  

Or, you may choose to give the Captain the Enchanted Shield and Sword of Power, making his armor save 0+ and hitting with a strength of 6 at all times, in order.

It seems like the captain options are worth more than hating Ld 6 enemies and being immune to panic... or maybe I'm wrong.  It's just, as far as panic goes, in an army of middenland, who is panicking?

The knights are heavily armored against shooting and are led by the character for combat ld tests.

The troops are (many of them) stubborn and less likely to be fleeing in the first place.

I don't know...  I'm just curious what other people think about the Seneschal versus Captain decision.  Is the Seneschal really that much better, if at all?

[Atchman]

Panic is one of the biggest enemies of the Empire.  Why don't you think that being immune ot panic is a bad thing?

[cisse]

Yep. Immune to panic is huge when you're testing on Ld 8 (captain's leadership) otherwise (especially when you tend to roll 9 and higher all the time on those tests ). The hatred ability against Ld 6 and lower is just a nice touch, but can be handy sometimes.

Also, I think the senechal has WS 6 whereas the capatain has WS 5.

[Senor D]

It's the immunity to panic that does it for me.
(own3d screaming skulls!)
 

[Thorion]

Seneschal is WS 5 like the captain.  If it were WS 6 I certainly wouldn't even ask.

I agree the immunity to panic is big.  I suppose that (and fluff) are the reasons to take the Seneschal over the Captain.  Again... I asked merely because of the constant comments that greatweapons are so great. (Pardon the pun).  

I'm still using the seneschal... I was curious (and still am) about what other folks think.

[BAWTRM]

Great weapons are very good indeed but remember that the regular Empire list cannot take Cavalry hammers for Characters at all (except for the GM of the white woof).
I for one would love to have a weapon for my mounted characters where they not only get +2 S on the charge but +1 S in subsequent rounds too!
I would immediately swap out my Great weapons for that!

[cisse]

Seneschal is WS 5 like the captain. If it were WS 6 I certainly wouldn't even ask.

Oh well, it seems my memory has failed me again.

[BK]

...I'm still using the seneschal... I was curious (and still am) about what other folks think.

IMO, in Army of Middenland only place for captain is a pegasus rider & BSB - simply due the fact that seneschal can not ride pegasus or be a BSB...  

[Von Trinkenessen]

I use both in my Army of The Wolfenhof; marcher lord of the Middenland Marches.
The army is led by the Seneshall[converted Valten2] with "super hammer"
and his inner circle White Wolf bodyguard.
The Captain [Smorgan Baldhead- vintage eternal champion] with "mega axe is in charge of the uniformed contingant.
Whilst another Captain [mystery 3 in the galleries} leads the warriors of Ulric.
These characters apart from the Seneshall inter change with WPs depending on the scenario or mood.

[Mad Ulric]

You're gaining immunity to panic and hatred at Ld 6 troops for................8 yes 8 points.   I may moan about the CoU army from time to time, but as for value that certainly is a bargain.

[Thorion]

Again; what inspired me to ask the question is less the value of the Seneschal and his special abilities and more to do with the Captain's flexibility in equipment.

Captain can take a greatweapon... enchanted shield... etc, etc, etc.

On a completely different note, when modelling a Seneschal with the Wolf Helm of the Teutogens, how do you guys do it?

I've been thinking about using a Valten (II) and somehow putting a wolf's head on his head, but I imagine that might look silly.  Advice is welcome as always.

[Ivo]

I've been meaning to use this fellow, from Mordheim. Haven't gotten around to ordering him, but the Mordheim models really add character to an empire army, I find.

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=303721&orignav=300816&ParentID=9843&GameNav=300808

The champion on the right is ideal for a Seneschal with wolf helm, although I think most people would prefer him mounted. If you're alright with a bit of converting, you could cut him at the waist, or you could just use the head with plastic parts from the knight set.

Ivo

[Mad Ulric]

OK to answer your particular question on flexibility of the empire captain.  Well, you can give an enchanted shield to a Seneschal, and it will be of the same use as it is to a Captian with a great weapon.  The captain will strike last except when he charges, and in subsequent rounds.  The Senescal will strike on I. in subsequent rounds.  It depends what you like.  There isn't an awful lot in it except that you can't rule out the other abilities the Senescal gains for 8 points when making a choice.

I think the only real advantages are captain better BS if you want the dragion bow, and ability to fly on the pegasus as already said.

Try them out separately, see who you like best.

[Border Prince]

On a completely different note, when modelling a Seneschal with the Wolf Helm of the Teutogens, how do you guys do it?

I was thinking about this at one point, and wondered about Space Wolf parts.The Space Wolf sprue has a backpack with two wolf exhaust vents. One of those might be just about the right shape to make into a visor on a knight's helmet, or use the upper half mounted on the top of a helmet. Just a thought. Being plastic is evidently an advantage from a cutting and trimming perspective.

[Thorion]

OK to answer your particular question on flexibility of the empire captain.  Well, you can give an enchanted shield to a Seneschal, and it will be of the same use as it is to a Captian with a great weapon.  

Are you SURE you can take an Enchanted Shield with a Seneschal???

I only ask because on the compiled Q&A on the Warhammer Forums (Games Workshop official forums)(http://us.games-workshop.com/community/forums/warforum.htm) it says:

Q : If a character has an armor upgrade option, but not a shield upgrade option (the DE Beastmaster in the errata for example), can he take magical shields, and/or magicl armors that are stated to include a shield (armor of darkness) [/i]

A : No

[Mad Ulric]

Well, if that's the case you're stuck with a shield (non-magical).  But, mounted as he is he gets a 2+ AS anyway, 1+ with the Wolfhelm of the Teutogens.  Very respectable for a hero.  I can live with that.  Matter of choice really, although if I was inclined to make him more resilient I'd give him a ward save.