Topic: AoS: Balancing By Limiting Warscrolls?

[Kernschatten]

I see posts here (and elsewhere) suggesting that one way to balance AoS is to limit the number of Warscrolls a player can bring.
Does this mean that people are interpreting the rules to mean that you must bring a Warscroll for each unit you place on the table? If I field four cannons, I have to have four Cannon Warscrolls?

I read the rules to mean that you had to have a Warscroll to field a type of unit. If I place four cannons on the table I have to have one Warscroll for cannons, because that is where the rules for the cannon are.

Discuss?


Edit: I changed the title of this thread.

[Oxycutor]

The Description section of the warscroll describes what it constists of.  ie state troops says 10 models minimum on the warscroll, but no maximum.

As far as I can tell, each warscroll now corresponds to one box of miniatures.

Just checked, the cannon, says a war machine and a unit of 3 crew.   They way I understand it the crew is a separate unit that the war machine benefits from if they are within an inch.    That does mean the crew and war machine are vulnerable, but it's still a good long-range moster buster, and can now target characters

[Kernschatten]

 I think you might have missed the question. (Or I didn't explain it well.)

Are people inferring from the rules that by limiting a game to a certain number of Warscrolls, say 15, that limits the number of units to 15 also?

[Gankom]

I think he's saying it depends on the description. For a cannon it sounds like 1 cannon per war scroll to me. For state troops it's 10+ per warscroll.

[Kernschatten]

I think he's saying it depends on the description. For a cannon it sounds like 1 cannon per war scroll to me. For state troops it's 10+ per warscroll.

So if I take four cannons then I would need to have four Warscrolls in my hand? One for each cannon?

[Oxycutor]

A warscroll equates to a unit, and each warscroll had a description of the size of the unit, which may be fixed, like characters and war machines to one model, or a minimum size like state troops which have a 10+ models in that unit.

So for 15 warscrolls

1 unit spearmen (10+models)
1 unit handgunners (10+models)
1 unit spearmen (10+models)
1 great cannon (with unit of 3 crew)
1 great cannon (with unit of 3 crew)
1 celestial hurricanum
1 war altar
1 unit knightly orders(5+models)
1 unit demigrpyhs(3+models)
1 unit reiksguard(5+models)
1 unit pistoliers(5+models)
1 Karl-Franz
1 Kurt Helborg
1 Wizard
1 Engineer

Obviously, with no limit on the maximum size of the units on some of the warscrolls, you could go big.  But a lot of people are also putting in a wound limit along with a war scroll limit.

[Kernschatten]

I read the rules as a Warscroll describes and gives the stats for a unit you are fielding, no matter how big the unit is.
If I take two unit of speamen at 20X each, I only need to have one Warscroll with me because that gives me the rules for spearmen.

So others are reading the rules that I can have one Warscroll for one unit of spearmen?

So it's not really a Warscroll limit it is a limit on the number of units.

[Darknight]

I would interpret it as "X Warscrolls worth of units" ... meaning X units, each of which has (in theory) its own Warscroll (although some will be duplicates).

[Oxycutor]

From the way of reading the warscrolls & units sections of the rules, if you use one warscroll, then that is for a unit, and all models of that unit have to stay together.   So the only way to have two distinct units of the same type is to have a duplicate warscroll.

It isn't that clear in the rules, but from the description section of some warscrolls you would have to equip everything in a unit with the same thing, and the standard/musician says "Models in this unit may..."   Which implies that each unit is one warscroll.

Yes, you literally only need one copy of the printed out physical scroll, as you don't need to waste paper printing it twice.  But that's not what they mean when picking number of warscrolls for army selection

[Kernschatten]

I didn't get that from the rules.  I was looking at the Warscrolls Compendiums as Army books.

"All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all of the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use."

It does not say you must have one Warscroll for each unit you want to use.

And that's why I'm asking. I'm not completely convinced, but  I'm trying to keep an open mind and go with the flow.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Kernschatten is correct. You need warscrolls because they provide the rules. They have no other purpose. So, even if you have more than one unit, one warscroll is sufficient and having more copies would not make a difference, unless you agree beforehand on a fixed number of warscrolls (but that is AoS comp).

[Deuce]

I don't think the rules are terribly clear on this point and I can see where Kernschatten is coming from: whether "Warscroll" refers to "single unit using these rules" or to "rules for this type of unit" is pretty vague. It's not surprising I guess that the community has latched onto the former definition since that fits more with the way Warhammer used to be played, even if the latter is a valid interpretation.

But by RAW it doesn't really matter, and it only comes into play when people are talking about house rules to try to limit army composition for game balance. In the presented context I think it's fairly clear that it means "n units/characters" rather than just "fifteen different types of units/characters" since the latter doesn't do a lot for balance if there's no additional limit on duplicates: you could take forty Nagashes and it would only count as one.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

There is, in fact, nothing in the wording of the AoS rules to suggest "warscroll" refers to "single unit using these rules." Basically, a warscroll is the equivalent of an old army list entry/unit profile.

[Kernschatten]

I'm not trying to be a rules lawyer. I read the Warscrolls and Units section in the rules over and over. It breaks down to warscrolls are the rules for the models and then the models form units. I kept reading about using Warscrolls to balance a game and thinking that 15 Warscrolls could be 30 units. I could not figure out how that would balance the game.

I can see a benefit for printing out multiple Warscrolls and writing on them (marking any upgrades, tracking wounds for multi-wound models).

[Darknight]

I think that anyone saying "take X Warscrolls" as a balancing mechanic is intending there to be one Warscroll per unit, so X is both the number of Warscrolls and the number of units.

At the end of the various Warscroll Compendiums, there are formations which specify units. I think that is what people are driving at.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

You would still need to agree to limit the number of warscrolls you can take.

[Clymer]

Local retailer asked GW and this was the response

Hope your day is going well. Here's a cool, quick way to organize a 'balanced' battle in Age of Sigmar for your customers who feel that they need something like this to be successful. Let me know if you have any questions.

Here's an example that can easily be adjusted to suit the needs of any event.

1-12 Warscrolls
1-2 Hero Warscrolls
0-2 monster warscrolls
No single warscroll may contain more than X wounds (i.e. 24)
Heroes may not be duplicated
All other warscrolls may only be duplicated once

Thanks,

[Syn Ace]

My friendly LGS owner said a new book is coming out containing the 4 page rules, war scrolls, and scenarios. I think the scenarios will help balance the game (?), but only for AoS forces, not our legacy WHFB armies.

[Clymer]

Here's what I'm thinking for more flexibility and maybe bigger armies

100 Models

6-20 Warscrolls
- no triplicates unless called for in a special organization (e.g., glittering host, state troop detachment)
- minimum 2 scrolls with 10 or more models
- no more than 40 wounds per scroll
- no more than 20 models that have 2 or more attacks (base) per scroll

1-6 Heroes
- special named characters take 2 hero slots
- heroes with 8-13 wounds take 2 hero slots
- Heroes with 14 or more wounds take 4 slots
- these are cumulative. Nagash takes 6 slots because he is special named and has more than 14 wounds.
0-3 scrolls with missile troops
0-6 war machines
0-6 monsters

A single model can use up allocations in different categories. For example, a high elf prince on a dragon takes up 2 hero slots (8-13 wounds) and a monster slot.

Go ahead, see if you can break it. And by break it, I mean create an army that can't be countered somehow by every other army, or than unfairly penalizes weak units or armies.

[Dotification]

I like it, but up to 6 war machines & 6 monsters???  Maybe for a Grand Army/Apocalypse tier. 

Also, what do our special chariots count as???--keeping in mind putting Volkmar or Order Wizards on them give the HERO keyword.

[commandant]

The group I used to play with seems to be using this idea:

12 warscrolls [One unit per warscroll]
No more than 40 wounds per unit
No more than 100 wounds total
No more than 2 of each heroic description [if a warscroll contains a general priest or whatever then he counts as one of each]

I donno how well it will work but it seems okayish

Apparently AoS doesn't have the problem of massive tanky heros or unkillable monsters.

[Krokz]

The group I used to play with seems to be using this idea:

12 warscrolls [One unit per warscroll]
No more than 40 wounds per unit
No more than 100 wounds total
No more than 2 of each heroic description [if a warscroll contains a general priest or whatever then he counts as one of each]

I donno how well it will work but it seems okayish

This are roughly the same numbers our community came up with. I would go 15 scrolls and more then 100 wounds to have more of a Fantasy mass army feel to it.
And no duplicate scrolls. Factions are now Order, Chaos, Death, Destruction. No races.

[Tommy2dice]

How we have been doing warscrolls is that you count the minimum number of each warscroll say 10 spearmen if u want 20 spearmen that would cost u another warscroll ect. Its not perfect but its a rough guild.