Topic: Tactical Decision Game 3.2: Daemons on the March

[TCWarroom]

Set this one up again using Battleline, it will be different.

[George]

I am happy to see a reset in a pitched battle...I'd like to see us have space to deploy the griffon as I'd like to see how everyone uses it.
That said the daemon army only having a few units takes a fair amount of tactics out of the game....either our chaff works or he gets to us.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

All great input.

We are going to do a reset.  I want to keep the same list because then we can easily compare the two battles.

This time it is a Pitched Battle.  A better test-  and we can form a Griffon now.

We are not going to work through the deployment phase like we did last time.  Bloodlord picked sides, we placed first, and I took the deployment phase all the way up to where he is finished deploying and we have our final remaining units to place.

The swamp in front of us is a Fungus Swamp and our Archer Det gained Frenzy....on Bloodlord's side the swamp he tested turned out to be a Sinkhole.

Tell me where you want the Cannon, HBVG, Knights, and Captasus.

[Cursain]

I would place the cannon and HBVC to the left of the Free Company, right behind the Pistoliers.  Honestly, the the easy points are on the left side of the field so we should focus our firepower there.

Park the knights on the left, next to the right side of the rock 12 inches from our back edge.

Put the Peg knight in the swamp so he get's Frenzy.

[MrAbyssal]

I would place the cannon and HBVC to the left of the Free Company, right behind the Pistoliers.  Honestly, the the easy points are on the left side of the field so we should focus our firepower there.

Park the knights on the left, next to the right side of the rock 12 inches from our back edge.

Put the Peg knight in the swamp so he get's Frenzy.

+1 but Knights on the right to bust through the right hand Flesh Hounds and be in position to attack from the rear.

This is a much more even deployment so it will be tough.

[Cursain]

I would place the cannon and HBVC to the left of the Free Company, right behind the Pistoliers.  Honestly, the the easy points are on the left side of the field so we should focus our firepower there.

Park the knights on the left, next to the right side of the rock 12 inches from our back edge.

Put the Peg knight in the swamp so he get's Frenzy.

+1 but Knights on the right to bust through the right hand Flesh Hounds and be in position to attack from the rear.

This is a much more even deployment so it will be tough.

I'm not sure there is anything on the right side, besides the right-most unit of flesh hounds, that our unit of knights will get to.  If we engage the unit of bloodletters with our knights/general they'll most likely die.

It sounds like a lot of fun though so I will +1 MrAbyssal's post as well.

[MrAbyssal]

If we engage the unit of bloodletters with our knights/general they'll most likely die.

Indeed. But a rear charge at the same time as a charge from the Griffon will make a mess of them.

If shooting can thin the Bloodcrushers before they hit then a charge from the Mini-Griff can possibly even finish them off. Need to focus on the Keeper first though. Pistoliers can Vanguard over to the left hand swamp ready to divert and slow the Bloodcrushers.

[librisrouge]

I wonder if it would be worth it to place the HBVG into the Fungus Swamp to give them Frenzy. It would make them ItP irrc and should a lone flesh hound or two charge them they might even be able to fight it off. Plus, it places them where they can do the most harm to what they need to early, the flesh hounds. We don't want them stripping us of our chaff before the heavy hitters get here.

[MrAbyssal]

I wonder if it would be worth it to place the HBVG into the Fungus Swamp to give them Frenzy. It would make them ItP irrc and should a lone flesh hound or two charge them they might even be able to fight it off. Plus, it places them where they can do the most harm to what they need to early, the flesh hounds. We don't want them stripping us of our chaff before the heavy hitters get here.

I'll agree with that. Close call between the Keeper and the Flesh Hounds though. I think I would still say Keeper first unless we get first turn.

[zifnab0]

Cannon should be placed on the right side with the knights to guard.  We've got a 72" range, lets use it.

HBVG near the center swamp, left side.

Defer to others on the Captasus.

[George]

KNight s and cannon on the right.
The cannons main target is the KoS and being a large target we canstill see it. It also means short of a mis fire it will be there at the end of the game.
The knights are there to get a joint charge off at the right time on the bloodletters....we use our chaff to get the charges we want.
HBVG annd peg captian on the left.
HBVG is there to take off the last wounds on the KoS and otherwise distract it and the bloodcrushers for a turn or so.
We should use the Captasus, archers, free company and if need be the great swords to delay the KoS and blood crushers while we focus on taking out the bloodletters.

[rothgar13]

I have to say that after the first round of this TDG, I don't see how this Daemons list won a tournament, barring some comp and luck being involved - the Upside-Down Griffon absolutely housed it. I think the Daemons list I'm likely going to face at the climax of my escalation league looks a lot more terrifying.

[MrAbyssal]

I have to say that after the first round of this TDG, I don't see how this Daemons list won a tournament, barring some comp and luck being involved - the Upside-Down Griffon absolutely housed it. I think the Daemons list I'm likely going to face at the climax of my escalation league looks a lot more terrifying.

No comp at all. Was a GW Staff Tournament and it didn't drop a game through state and national rounds. The guy who uses it does trash talk a lot and this was also last year so the chaff probably wasn't as prevalent. It was at least before we got our new book.

[Noght]

I have to say that after the first round of this TDG, I don't see how this Daemons list won a tournament, barring some comp and luck being involved - the Upside-Down Griffon absolutely housed it. I think the Daemons list I'm likely going to face at the climax of my escalation league looks a lot more terrifying.

No comp at all. Was a GW Staff Tournament and it didn't drop a game through state and national rounds. The guy who uses it does trash talk a lot and this was also last year so the chaff probably wasn't as prevalent. It was at least before we got our new book.

Except our last book had better chaff than this book.  Those decimated detachments didn't cause panic.  That Demon list is a classic push it forward and my troops are OP combat resolution list.  Any of the unit killers is insta-win right?

[George]

I have to say that after the first round of this TDG, I don't see how this Daemons list won a tournament, barring some comp and luck being involved - the Upside-Down Griffon absolutely housed it. I think the Daemons list I'm likely going to face at the climax of my escalation league looks a lot more terrifying.

Short of taking a hellblaster that over performed (without the engineer) and a cannon that hit and got through the ward save first turn our army list had very little to do with the win. Anything with chaff and an accurate cannon could have won this.

[MrAbyssal]

I have to say that after the first round of this TDG, I don't see how this Daemons list won a tournament, barring some comp and luck being involved - the Upside-Down Griffon absolutely housed it. I think the Daemons list I'm likely going to face at the climax of my escalation league looks a lot more terrifying.

No comp at all. Was a GW Staff Tournament and it didn't drop a game through state and national rounds. The guy who uses it does trash talk a lot and this was also last year so the chaff probably wasn't as prevalent. It was at least before we got our new book.

Except our last book had better chaff than this book.  Those decimated detachments didn't cause panic.  That Demon list is a classic push it forward and my troops are OP combat resolution list.  Any of the unit killers is insta-win right?

He faced down cheesy Skaven with dual HPAs, Life Lizards, Dual-Hydra Dark Elves, Empire with 7th Ed Mortars, Ogres and still won every game. Maybe he's just a better player than us. You have to be pretty good to go undefeated in a tournament with a list like that.

[rothgar13]

I have to say that after the first round of this TDG, I don't see how this Daemons list won a tournament, barring some comp and luck being involved - the Upside-Down Griffon absolutely housed it. I think the Daemons list I'm likely going to face at the climax of my escalation league looks a lot more terrifying.

Short of taking a hellblaster that over performed (without the engineer) and a cannon that hit and got through the ward save first turn our army list had very little to do with the win. Anything with chaff and an accurate cannon could have won this.

Exactly. This list feels fundamentally flawed. Maybe the guy's just that much better or luckier (or both) than the average gamer.

[Cursain]

I have to say that after the first round of this TDG, I don't see how this Daemons list won a tournament, barring some comp and luck being involved - the Upside-Down Griffon absolutely housed it. I think the Daemons list I'm likely going to face at the climax of my escalation league looks a lot more terrifying.

Short of taking a hellblaster that over performed (without the engineer) and a cannon that hit and got through the ward save first turn our army list had very little to do with the win. Anything with chaff and an accurate cannon could have won this.

Exactly. This list feels fundamentally flawed. Maybe the guy's just that much better or luckier (or both) than the average gamer.

I think you hit the nail on the head rothgar13.  Many of us frequent forum members are here to hone our generalship.  At the game store I frequent, players want to play fluffy lists and aren't as interested in curb stomping.  That list was quickly taken apart because many of the players here think like they're playing chess .... 2-4 turns ahead of their current moves.

[George]

He faced down cheesy Skaven with dual HPAs, Life Lizards, Dual-Hydra Dark Elves, Empire with 7th Ed Mortars, Ogres and still won every game. Maybe he's just a better player than us. You have to be pretty good to go undefeated in a tournament with a list like that.

It makes sense his list did well then as it would stomp over most combat orientated armies. Enough attacks to deal with hordes and enough wounds/strength to outmuscle the others.
For us it was easy....we had guns that didn't miss and enough chaff to buy time, ie. we beat the combat army before they got to combat.....the above armies wouldn't have been able to do this and would have ended up in a lot of hurt.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Another thing you have to realize is the scenario and terrain did Bloodlord absolutely no favors.

If the Archers don't get the kill, the cannon would not have fired on the heavy cav and got the wicked shot.  The only reason Bloodlord gave up his flank was to make space for the horde behind him and he knew the primary shot was on the Keeper.  Without all that, Bloodlord was down but not out. 

Which is what will make round two all that more interesting.  We have a lot less space to work with in this one.

Also, multiple minds are always better than one who is operating under time constraints.  If Empire makes a wrong move against this list, it would be difficult to recover.  This is one of the reasons I love TDGs....I learn things every thread about how others would react in certain situations.  I think it raises all our "game" when we walk away and are now the Empire General alone, and on the clock.

 
HHG

 

[Windelov]

I think Skaven and Vampire Counts were quite debated. How about, when and if HHG is up for it, we fight one of these.?

[rothgar13]

I agree with you that the scenario kind of set him up for a rough one, HHG, but the fact remains that the list feels quite limited, and I don't like some of the choices he made. I feel that both Flesh Hounds and especially Bloodcrushers are overpriced, I hated the gifts he chose for his Keeper, and I don't know why he didn't bring 2 Hordes of Bloodletters instead of 1, given that they're (a) incredibly efficient and (b) Core. Also, where the heck is the chaff? Daemons have access to some nice ones in Furies and Fiends of Slaanesh.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

I agree with you that the scenario kind of set him up for a rough one, HHG, but the fact remains that the list feels quite limited, and I don't like some of the choices he made. I feel that both Flesh Hounds and especially Bloodcrushers are overpriced, I hated the gifts he chose for his Keeper, and I don't know why he didn't bring 2 Hordes of Bloodletters instead of 1, given that they're (a) incredibly efficient and (b) Core. Also, where the heck is the chaff? Daemons have access to some nice ones in Furies and Fiends of Slaanesh.

I think his original intent was a total Khorne list.  I think he lost the fluff bug when he couldn't resist picking up the Keeper with the Spirit Swallow to add a third nasty stand alone unit.

But yes, it isn't the perfect Daemon list.

I think Skaven and Vampire Counts were quite debated. How about, when and if HHG is up for it, we fight one of these.?

Those will likely be our opponents in the next couple of TDGs.  Stay tuned-  we will get to them.

Hopefully I can whet your appetite in the short term-  in my Escalation League my growing Griffon at 2250 is finally up to bat this weekend against a deadly Warriors list in the Semi-Finals.  If I win that one, I will face a Vampire list in the Finals at 2500.  I will post reports in my Battle Report Griffon thread.   

I wonder if it would be worth it to place the HBVG into the Fungus Swamp to give them Frenzy.

Don't forget-  the Swamp has a random effect:

5:  Fungus Swamp.  Units moving through a Fungus Swamp gain (until the end of the player’s next turn):

1-2 Poisoned Attacks
3-4 Frenzy
5-6 Stupidity

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***UPDATE***

We put our HBVG and Captasus on the left and the Knights and Great Cannon on the right.  Pistoliers Vanguard forward and left.

Here is what it looks like:

Bloodlord wins the roll off for the first turn again.


Round Two:  Bloodlord’s First Turn

Pretty straightforward:  all units surge forward , except the Keeper who stays out of Cannon LOS and HBVG range next to the Manor.  Hounds make their DT tests.

Here is what it looks like:

Bloodlord’s Magic Phase

He gets double 5s but decides not to cast this round.


Empire Decisions in TDG 3.2

How do you want to deal with the encroaching Daemons?  What are we going to do to deal with each unit?

Here is how it looks in the end:

A couple of considerations-

--The BSB is back right, Skulltaker front left.
--Knights would need an 11 to charge the Flesh Hounds.   

 
HHG

[Noght]

Well Bloodlord learned his first lesson well, hide the Target.

Hmmm.  Lets see.  We could DECB (double eagle c**k block) the Juggers ,with the Captasus and Pistoliers.  But that's evil.

So block the Juggers with Pistoliers, taking the overrun off the board so they only stumble forward an inch.
We'll shoot the pooches with the Volley gun but should protect it as you did last game with a detachment.
Archer detachments start to bloom west for Horde blocking.
ICK and Halberd detachment set up cover for cannon (who shoots Juggers).
I think if my Halberd horde must fight Letters I'd like to be behind the wall....

[SBSchifani]

***Hmmm.  Lets see.  We could DECB (double eagle c**k block) the Juggers ,with the Captasus and Pistoliers.  But that's evil.***

I for one still don't think that works the way you do, but am always interested in seeing options like this discussed.