Topic: 2000 point Necron vs. DE and New Chaos Battle Report

[Crimsonsphinx]

But fearless is more balanced.  It no longer means instantly passing leadership tests, though you can no longer force AS checks.

Sorry?  I thought that is exactly what it did! 

[phillyt]

You automatically pass morale tests for breaking and pinning.  Anything requiring a leadership characteristic check must still be rolled for (certain spells and items).

[Crimsonsphinx]

You automatically pass morale tests for breaking and pinning.  Anything requiring a leadership characteristic check must still be rolled for (certain spells and items).

Oh yea, sorry.  I thought you was implying that they had to take break tests for a minute.  Thats pretty much what I equate leadership tests to   

[phillyt]

As a user of mindshackle scarabs, I make sure to understand the leadership requirements of fearlessness!

[Crimsonsphinx]

As a user of mindshackle scarabs, I make sure to understand the leadership requirements of fearlessness!

No idea what they do.  Our Necron player has never used them vs me, and now hes sold his army on ebay, so I won't ever find out!   

[phillyt]

Forces an opponent to make a leadership test on 3d6.  If he fails, a random model in base contact hits itself with 1d3 attacks and cannot attack that round.  Great in challenges.

[Crimsonsphinx]

Forces an opponent to make a leadership test on 3d6.  If he fails, a random model in base contact hits itself with 1d3 attacks and cannot attack that round.  Great in challenges.

Sounds it!  Given the statistical average is 10.5 on 3d6, its a better than average chance of screwing their own model.  Do they get to chose what weapon they use or do you?

[phillyt]

The player controlling the scarabs chooses the weapon the model attacks itself with.

[Crimsonsphinx]

The player controlling the scarabs chooses the weapon the model attacks itself with.

Could be very very nasty then!  Best to ensure your weapon cant cut through your own armour, or hope that you have a decent ward save.  Are these things expensive?

[phillyt]

Only 15 points and no limit to the number of lords and overlords who can take it.  The model using it still gets to do all of their own attacks too!

I have had it go off successfully almost everytime and all of my lords and overlords have it.  Nothing sadder than a monsterous creature charging a unit and then beating on itself.

[Aldaris]

As mentioned in another thread, it's important to remember some parts of the FaQ.

Namely, the player who's turn it is gets to decide which simultaneous effect resolves first.

Challenges and MSS both resolve at the start of the CC phase, so if you're charging the Necrons you get to decide if challenging or MSS happens first... which allows you to nicely circumvent the effect if you're smart.

[Crimsonsphinx]

As mentioned in another thread, it's important to remember some parts of the FaQ.

Namely, the player who's turn it is gets to decide which simultaneous effect resolves first.

Challenges and MSS both resolve at the start of the CC phase, so if you're charging the Necrons you get to decide if challenging or MSS happens first... which allows you to nicely circumvent the effect if you're smart.

If they are simultaneous, then they surely occur at the same time right?  How will you dodge the scarabs?  if you challenge, your still going to be in base to base with the character!

[phillyt]

Especially since if a challenge is called, the Necron is only in base to base contact with the model it is challenging.  By the time the attack phase occurs, it would make the scarab an illegal action I would assume.

Regardless, the item is fantastic.

[Aldaris]

If they are simultaneous, then they surely occur at the same time right?  How will you dodge the scarabs?  if you challenge, your still going to be in base to base with the character!

Example: you charge in and move a grunt into btb with the Cron Lord. You say "we'll resolve MSS now, please". Then, after that, the challenge is handled, including the movement into btb. Clearer?

@PhillyT: yes, it's still good. But my point is that if you have a killy character you can very reliably prevent the Necron Lord from taking hin out in the first cc phase. And if your charging unit is half decent there won't be a second one against Necrons.

[Crimsonsphinx]

If they are simultaneous, then they surely occur at the same time right?  How will you dodge the scarabs?  if you challenge, your still going to be in base to base with the character!

Example: you charge in and move a grunt into btb with the Cron Lord. You say "we'll resolve MSS now, please". Then, after that, the challenge is handled, including the movement into btb. Clearer?

@PhillyT: yes, it's still good. But my point is that if you have a killy character you can very reliably prevent the Necron Lord from taking hin out in the first cc phase. And if your charging unit is half decent there won't be a second one against Necrons.

That makes sense Aldaris, its just not how we play things in my group... I wasn't aware that there was a precedence of simultaneous since it goes at the same time and all, typical GW misusing words!

[phillyt]

It is I suppose, but I am not sure that follows the intent though in a tournament setting it would be pretty much legal.  The challenge is supposed to be the first occurance conceptually, meaning the two sides challenge then they resolve their effects.  Under the letter of the rules though, the charging player would have their chance to force the MSS first.  I am never a fan of that kind of shenanigans though!

[Aldaris]

"Shenanigans"? It's specifically covered in a faq...

[phillyt]

I don't mean it is illegal or anything, I just don't like it when something as simple as the order of resolving effects and challenges are left ot the decision of the controlling player.  I think there should be a hard order, like challenge, then effect resolution.  It shouldn't depend on the player whose turn it is.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I don't mean it is illegal or anything, I just don't like it when something as simple as the order of resolving effects and challenges are left ot the decision of the controlling player.  I think there should be a hard order, like challenge, then effect resolution.  It shouldn't depend on the player whose turn it is.

I agree.  My group has a general consensus that everything that happens simultaneous actually does.  So you resolve everything that happens at that stage first, all at once with no priority given to anything since they happen at the same time.  Might be incorrect, but it has never caused us any issues.

My concerns with the method that Aldaris is saying is it sound suspiciously like playing the rules, rather than the game!

[phillyt]

True, but Aldaris's method allows the game to be played against relative strangers with a firm subset of understanding.  I like the faqs for that reason.  His way is the letter of the law, but my group still does challenges as the first effect at all times.

[Aldaris]

My concerns with the method that Aldaris is saying is it sound suspiciously like playing the rules, rather than the game!

The difference being...?

It's not like this is some kind of ridiculous interpretation like the people who insisted you couldn't disembark from a Valkyrie or Vendetta when the model first came out...

[Crimsonsphinx]

Im not complaining.  If I played serious tourney gaming or against strangers, then sure I would probably need to play like Aldaris is saying.  It just seems a bit odd to me that there is an order to simultaneous moves. 

In my group we do like Philly.  Charges made, then declare challenges, probably because this is how fantasy worked.

[rufus sparkfire]

Namely, the player who's turn it is gets to decide which simultaneous effect resolves first.

That sounds like a rule from a proper game, like Magic.

Such things have no place in fuzzy games like 40K and warhammer!

[phillyt]

That fuzziness though creates a much more engrossing system.  Magic, while technically sound, isn't nearly as characterful.  There is a happy medium that needs to be held.

I prefer the less strict rules of GW but totally get that there are problems attached.

[Aldaris]

That fuzziness though creates a much more engrossing system.  Magic, while technically sound, isn't nearly as characterful.

?

I don't know, but I can very well do without rules discussions of this kind. Which often get quite lively with a lot of players.

And the specific example with MSS and challenges simply cannot be resolved simultaneously. If you do it "challenge first, then MSS" you're actually doing it in a sequence already.