Author Topic: The mortar (Read 15230 times)

Nicholas Bies · « **Reply #25 on:** February 26, 2009, 01:37:58 PM »

TBH if any warmachine in the empire army deserves a 2 for 1 rule then it's the mortar and may see it taken a lot more often.

I like the idea of it being core as well. Could field a proper Nuln army then of Handgunners/mortars, Cannons, helthingies.

Mathi Alfblut · « **Reply #26 on:** February 26, 2009, 01:41:35 PM »

2 for 1 choice at special or turned into a core choice would make the mortar far more likely to see the field.

Like the idea.

GamesPoet · « **Reply #27 on:** February 26, 2009, 01:42:13 PM »

Quote from: warhammerlord_soth on February 26, 2009, 01:14:22 PM

My mortar IS indirect fire.

And a mighty fine piece it is.

Quote

And I'm working on more, so I can field the 6 pie-plate army of DOOOOOM

Imagine showing up to a tournament with this!

phillyt · « **Reply #28 on:** February 26, 2009, 02:55:27 PM »

Where is the public outcry to see the mortar used more? It has its place and it does get used some. It just isn't as necessary as the cannon so sees less use. We are not lacking a means to kill T3 models. Plus the Rares are pretty open, making helstorms a popular choice.

Phil

Nicholas Bies · « **Reply #29 on:** February 26, 2009, 03:01:19 PM »

Rares are only open because of the stigma attached to steam tanks. Apparently it's valid (if not nice) to take 2 hydra or 3-4 bolt throwers. But a steam tank or two, NO!

phillyt · « **Reply #30 on:** February 26, 2009, 03:39:25 PM »

The stigma is a combination of:

1) They aren't all that good
2) You are talking about 600 points versus 350 or 400
3) Using them stresses the fluff of any Empir army.

Phil

GamesPoet · « **Reply #31 on:** February 26, 2009, 03:55:45 PM »

For 600 points, one could take 8 mortars.

Captain Tineal · « **Reply #32 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:38:44 PM »

Quote from: Helgrim on February 25, 2009, 08:32:21 PM

Not meaning to sound harsh, but.......why? The dam thing explodes 1 in 6, is nearly as much as a cannon and not as good as a Helstorm. Even if you direct hit on something (which is unlikley), you won't kill too many. So, I'm genuinely interested in how you use it to good effect? I wouldnt mind it it is pretty cheap but it take a precious special!

The Mortar misfires no more than a Cannon, or Helstorm, and when it does is not nearly as dangerous as the Helstorm.

I find it is very accurate... barring a catastrophic scatter, I can usually snipe large monsters for the S6 D3 wounds, or drop my pie plate on the centre of a unit. It is quite easy to kill 75 points worth of guys with a Mortar. And my opponents don't complain about my Mortar like they do about the Helstorm.

Perambulator · « **Reply #33 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:40:17 PM »

Quote from: Captain Tineal on February 26, 2009, 04:38:44 PM

And my opponents don't complain about my Mortar like they do about the Helstorm.

That right there is another reason to take the Helstorm!

phillyt · « **Reply #34 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:57:12 PM »

It isn't an indictment of the marotar, it is a question of how superior the helstorm is in almost every comparable catagory. Yes the mortar is more accurate, ut I don't find itsability to snipe large targets all that compelling. It cannot compete with a great cannon in that catagory.

Phil

Mathi Alfblut · « **Reply #35 on:** February 26, 2009, 07:09:20 PM »

Yet Philly, you will not bother with taking a mortar?
Why do you keep saying it is okay but then say it has no real use. It is only there for amusement. If you only take something that is supposed to be rather common only occasionally, if at all, I say somethings needs to be fixed.
Sometimes it feels like you are happy with stuff in the list remaining uncompetitive cause you belive people should play the game like you do. That´s not a sign of a balanced list of some things sees almost no use. And if you save something is unessential, I see it as a sign that it is really worthless. For why take a mortar when you already have lots of things that can kill the intended targets just as well as the mortar and that are all core?

Why do you wan´t things to always remain as they are, Philly? You just say people should skip the mortars and take dual helstorms and two cannons instead, cause that is the best setup. Seems like you don´t care.
Is it not rather dull that the same armies takes to the field time and time again? I think the mortar should be made just as valid a choice as the cannon and the Helstorm, and people do not ask for supermortars. They simply want to feel that the mortar vs. cannons should be less simple.

What is wrong with thinking of how it could be improved while we wait for the future new AB, whenever it comes...

Why always strike down upon people talking about new ideas, changes etc.

If the mortar is situational, it is crap. Most people don´t accept your view that tailoring is the shit. Most people want to play with more fixed lists. And in a campaign for example, you can´t change. There are so many ways to play the game besides regular tournaments, where you can´t change your list based on your opponent, and it seems many people play that way. They would of course what a better internal balance and tug between different choices in the book.

Helgrim · « **Reply #36 on:** February 26, 2009, 10:09:15 PM »

This wasn't an outcry at how crappy the mortar is, i mean in comparison to a stone thrower i rate it quite high. It's just that i don't like redundant choices in any army list and the mortar along with other examples is one of the least used units in an empire list. I figured if it was made indirect maybe a lot more people would consider taking one?

phillyt · « **Reply #37 on:** February 26, 2009, 11:10:18 PM »

I certainly don't mind the mortar, I had two and still have one. There is nothing wrong with them. They do serve a purpose. Their main flaw is entirely their position as a special. This may sound silly, but they would see more use as a rare!

Making them 2 for 1 is not the answer. These aren't BS3 Bolt Throwers, they are mortars for gods sake! Imagine, 8 for only 600 points! Drop 100 troops in there and you have a hideously powerful army!

Phil

Pistol Pete · « **Reply #38 on:** February 27, 2009, 12:07:44 AM »

Quote

If the mortar is situational, it is crap.

While the mortar is definitely situational, I wouldn't say it's crap. If you must take fixed lists, yeah, the mortar would be better replaced by something else. Some armies can build a strong all-comers list very easily while others (empire is one of them) work better when you can tailor your list a bit. The game balance just needs to refined.

Folken · « **Reply #39 on:** February 27, 2009, 06:07:44 AM »

Never understood the exact reasoning why a special choice couldn't replace a rare choice.

Toro_Blanco · « **Reply #40 on:** February 27, 2009, 06:25:57 AM »

I actually think Philly hit the nail on the head here...it's not that the mortar sucks, it's that it's hard to justify taking it over a cannon, pistoliers, or greatswords. I know that's my bind right now. I'd much rather take it than even helblasters and helstorms (MathHammer players may argue with me on that, but I would). If Mortars were a rare choice, they'd be deployed a LOT more...

The only time a mortar is a MUST HAVE item for me is against horde armies...there, having mortars and helstorms together is an easy way to shred your foes. But against any seriously armored foe, it's hard for me to justify taking up that precious special slot when I could take so many other useful units too...

Toro_Blanco · « **Reply #41 on:** February 27, 2009, 06:35:54 AM »

Quote from: Helgrim on February 26, 2009, 10:09:15 PM

This wasn't an outcry at how crappy the mortar is, i mean in comparison to a stone thrower i rate it quite high. It's just that i don't like redundant choices in any army list and the mortar along with other examples is one of the least used units in an empire list. I figured if it was made indirect maybe a lot more people would consider taking one?

Again, I think it's also a case of they feel there's better choices, even as indirect. Indirect would, for me, make it a must have, every time. Even against tough foes, the ability to use a war machine entrenched behind infantry is too good to pass up.

I doubt most people would react that way...indirect fire would make it more appealing to must, sure...but I think as long as they have to pick between it and the OTHER special choices, I just don't think the average player will consider the indirect good enough.

Elden · « **Reply #42 on:** February 27, 2009, 07:49:12 AM »

Sometimes though, it might be fun to go one extreme just to throw the opponent off.

Say you pack 4 mortars, 2 helstorms! Then, the rest are all core infantry, some shooting and nilla knights (all core). He is going to have to charge in and he will have to weather an absolute storm of mortar/rocket fire before he reaches you.

And 4 mortars and 2 helstorms are just 530 points. So, you will have a ton of points left over to spend on core troops. Sure, its vulnarable to a big nasty bloodthirster. But you have 6 artillery pieces spread over the entire length of the board. He's not going to be able to take them all out, and the loss of one mortar is just 75 points. So no big deal.

Hmmm, I feel like making up a new army list like that now! lol

Shadowlord · « **Reply #43 on:** February 27, 2009, 08:42:41 AM »

Quote from: bies21 on February 26, 2009, 03:01:19 PM

Apparently it's valid (if not nice) to take 2 hydra or 3-4 bolt throwers. But a steam tank or two, NO!

One of the DE playing buddies I usually face use just either of those combos all the time (with some very nasty magic phase) so I shut him up with 3 cannons and 2 Stanks (plus the good old AL and his magic defeating possé). Not something I am proud of doing, but hey, someone have to teach to those evil pointy ears a lesson.

Otherwise PhillyT is right about the mortar. The problem is the slot, not the machine.

warhammerlord_soth · « **Reply #44 on:** February 27, 2009, 08:44:59 AM »

Quote from: Elden on February 27, 2009, 07:49:12 AM

Say you pack 4 mortars, 2 helstorms!

That would be the 6 pie-plate army of DOOOOM I was refering to.

cisse · « **Reply #45 on:** February 27, 2009, 08:51:40 AM »

Quote from: warhammerlord_soth on February 27, 2009, 08:44:59 AM

Quote from: Elden on February 27, 2009, 07:49:12 AM
Say you pack 4 mortars, 2 helstorms!

That would be the 6 pie-plate army of DOOOOM I was refering to.

My spearmen are still shivering when I mention the words "mortar" and "WHlord_soth" in the same sentence, and you want to take 6 pie plates? You're evil.

Elden · « **Reply #46 on:** February 27, 2009, 09:14:44 AM »

Interestingly, there are lots of armies which are vulnerable to this. Its rare to have an entire army of T4 troops. Even chaos mortals usually field squishy mauraders, and all elf armies are T3 (excluding the star dragon). Empire, Bret, skaven, skinks, all are mostly T3.

phillyt · « **Reply #47 on:** February 27, 2009, 12:26:35 PM »

The only issue is that you lose the cannon, which opens the army up to a tremendous flaw. Dragons, thirsters, stegadons. All of them are now unimpeded.

Phil

Folken · « **Reply #48 on:** February 27, 2009, 03:19:05 PM »

Quote from: PhillyT on February 27, 2009, 12:26:35 PM

The only issue is that you lose the cannon, which opens the army up to a tremendous flaw. Dragons, thirsters, stegadons. All of them are now unimpeded.

Phil

Sword of Fate, Mace of Hellsturm, beast cowers, pit of shades... we have gone through this before.

Toro_Blanco · « **Reply #49 on:** February 27, 2009, 04:29:17 PM »

What about two cannons, two mortars, and two helstorms?

Seems to me that would be a really fun list, with (as pointed out) lots of points left over for core troops; you could easily load up on knights for manueverability and flanking.

Hell, it even sounds like the perfect list for a Nuln army, fluff wise.

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Author Topic: The mortar (Read 15230 times)