Topic: 8th edition on route.

[Mathi Alfblut]

As it should be. Less superheavy vehicle cheese, the better. Makes for a more fun and more gritty game.

[phillyt]

Super heavy costs didn't move much.  Its things like Rhinos, buggies, and Trukks.  They doubled in price.  Dreads went up a fair amount as well.

[rufus sparkfire]

Are dreadnoughts good now?

[Aldaris]

Fairly decent from what I'm seeing, yeah. They got faster, and have good T with a 3+ save now, which helps! I'm considering running a Dreadnought or two in my CSM army. Their crazed rule is actually beneficial now!

[phillyt]

Much better than they were.  They are "worth their points" so to speak, but certainly aren't a deal.

The issue is that there are more point efficient options at 150.

[Aldaris]

So "not the most optimal thing you could take, but you won't be shooting yourself in the foot"?

That seems aight to me.

[cisse]

Some dreadnoughts are better than others. Bjorn the Fell-handed, the SW dreadnought special character, is quite good for the points - even more so since conveniently he has just 8 wounds (which means he can't be targeted if he's not the closest model). SW venerable dreadnoughts with blizzard shields, quite good too.

Venerable dreads in general with twin lascannon - quite tasty and good firepower. Otherwise yeah, decent but not too good. T7 hurts them a bit (wounded on 5+ by S4 weaponry), the space marine assault dreadnoughts (forgot whet they're called) have T8 but are quite a bit more expensive.

[rufus sparkfire]

I was going to play grey knights dreadnoughts. I don't think they have any special rules yet, but the book will be along before too long.

Thanks for the information!

[Aldaris]

Did a little google search for the current Dark Elf Cold One Knight mounts. Impossible to find, sadly! I do have 10 of the Lizardmen cold ones from my earlier conversion attempt, but they do look rather crap in comparison, and they don't have saddles. Sigh!

[Gankom]

My Guard army has stayed pretty much the same size, but going to be changing around the exact make up. I use to run a good number of veteran squads to support my platoons, and the veterans just don't work the same way anymore. Their still not bad, just a different use. I'm actually considering merging a bunch of squads together into a big conscript mob or two, buffed with a priest and commissar.

What are looking like good things against chaos marine armies? I'm use to fighting more lightly armored stuff like orcs or tau, but my buddies gotten deep into chaos marines. Plasma looks pretty good to me, probably still keep around some melta's for vehicles.

[phillyt]

Some dreadnoughts are better than others. Bjorn the Fell-handed, the SW dreadnought special character, is quite good for the points - even more so since conveniently he has just 8 wounds (which means he can't be targeted if he's not the closest model). SW venerable dreadnoughts with blizzard shields, quite good too.

Venerable dreads in general with twin lascannon - quite tasty and good firepower. Otherwise yeah, decent but not too good. T7 hurts them a bit (wounded on 5+ by S4 weaponry), the space marine assault dreadnoughts (forgot whet they're called) have T8 but are quite a bit more expensive.

Ironclad Dreadnaught are another level of good.  They are T8, as you mention, which is a huge step up compared to T7.

The venerable dreads are quite good as well.  BS and WS 2+, they also get a second level of save, the "ignore the wound on a 6+" which works on even mortal wounds.  It is actually quite a good save.

[Aldaris]

Plasma vets still look pretty good to me. I'm thinking of one or two squads with 3 Plasma and a Lascannon, in cover, as part of a firebase. That squad is still only 101 points and has a good amount of firepower. No Chimeras, mobility has to come from flanking and deepstriking, and maybe some scout sentinels with heavy flamers. Gotta pay a FA tax anyway to fill a brigade, and they can deploy forward and create an anti deepstrike bubble until they're removed.

Plasma in general looks amazing on guard infantry. Dirt cheap, and great output.  I'll also definitely add a brace of Basilisks to my artillery to complement the Manticores - all of which should be good against Chaos. From what I'm reading and seeing I think what is essential is having enough bubblewrap around your important stuff to last for a couple turns. A conscript mob probably won't have a large life expectancy when a squad or two of Berzerkers or Boyz or Genestealers hit it. Deepstriking Scion squads with plasma look great for wiping something off the board fast, especially if a Tempestor Prime lands with them and orders them to reroll ones. If you can land them in cover they won't even be that easy to remove with a 3+ save.

What I'm still kind of struggling with is fitting in some meltas. The only use for them that looks appealing to me right now is dropping a command squad or something with like 4 meltas out of a Vendetta, so I can get into half range reliably. Or just 2 on a flanking unit of Roughriders, so they can cause some havoc besides melee.

[phillyt]

Yeah, melta has taken a real back seat as far as I can tell.  Now that you can safely shoot plasma, it has become far better overall.

[Aldaris]

Pairing with a Vendetta is the only good way I see with guard. 2 command squads w/ meltas, a company commander for some shooting orders and maybe an officer of the fleet in there. Expensive, sure, but that's a serious AT firepower package, and pretty damn durable too.

Come to think of it, why not add a Vulture or two with twin punisher cannons, if you've already got an officer of the fleet for calling out ground targets? 40 S5 shots baby. If it goes to hover, stays stationary and shoots at designated ground targets, it hits on 2+... skydakka! Sure, that's a good chunk of your army right there, but a pretty cool chunk.

[Artobans Ghost]

By the gods!
Quote Aldaris:Come to think of it, why not add a Vulture or two with twin punisher cannons, if you've already got an officer of the fleet for calling out ground targets? 40 S5 shots baby

Music to my ears! I only thought punishers came in tank form, let alone twins 😺

[phillyt]

Only issue with that is it may be the only round it fires.  It is much easier to kill fliers now and even easier when one goes to hover mode.

[Finlay]

good.

fuck flyers.

cool in theory, horrible in practice.

[rufus sparkfire]

Still traumatised by those 6e games against my stormraven!

[Finlay]

too rock-papers-scissorsy!

[Aldaris]

Flyers saw a decent price hike in points, and they're much easier to hit - but -1 to hit is still pretty good protection (although it comes at the cost of the flyer hitting at -1 too in most cases, because moving and shooting heavy weapons), and the Valk variants come with 14 wounds. So still non-trivial to kill, IMO. Still, I'll happily shell out 250 points or so for 6 lascannons on that chassis with a transport capacity of 12, and the awesome gravchute insertion rule.

A Vendetta and two Vultures plus Officer(s) of the Fleet should come to about a third of a 2000 points army.

[cisse]

What are looking like good things against chaos marine armies?

So far, I've found basilisks with added heavy flamers my to-go units of the army. Reasonably cheap, good firepower, the flamer helps against small units that can tie you up with charges. Other than that: conscripts are dirt cheap and good bubblewrap units, and plasma vets or scions to put the heat on those chaos marines.

Yeah, melta has taken a real back seat as far as I can tell.  Now that you can safely shoot plasma, it has become far better overall.

I don't know... My twin Multi-melta stormwolf does pretty well with it, and I have a command squad with 4 melta's in my guard who also do well. They are in a chimera so getting close is not too hard- it'd probably work better on scions though. The half range D6 damage is quite good against specific targets. Plasma is good against heavy infantry and overcharged (preferably with re-roll 1's...) can deal with large models too, but melta's do a lot more damage against those and are quite threatening so your opponent will want to deal with even 1 model who still holds a meltagun.

[phillyt]

Pairing with a Vendetta is the only good way I see with guard. 2 command squads w/ meltas, a company commander for some shooting orders and maybe an officer of the fleet in there. Expensive, sure, but that's a serious AT firepower package, and pretty damn durable too.

Come to think of it, why not add a Vulture or two with twin punisher cannons, if you've already got an officer of the fleet for calling out ground targets? 40 S5 shots baby. If it goes to hover, stays stationary and shoots at designated ground targets, it hits on 2+... skydakka! Sure, that's a good chunk of your army right there, but a pretty cool chunk.

The fleet master can only target a single unit within 18" can't it?

I'm still not really feeling those fliers.  They only hit on a 5+ and if they are in hover doe they will be dead in a couple turns (or so butalized that they won't be able to actually hit anything due to lost wounds.).

I don't know... My twin Multi-melta stormwolf does pretty well with it, and I have a command squad with 4 melta's in my guard who also do well. They are in a chimera so getting close is not too hard- it'd probably work better on scions though. The half range D6 damage is quite good against specific targets. Plasma is good against heavy infantry and overcharged (preferably with re-roll 1's...) can deal with large models too, but melta's do a lot more damage against those and are quite threatening so your opponent will want to deal with even 1 model who still holds a meltagun.

Multi Melta are still good, but normal meltas are just such short ranged weapons now.  But they certainyl will wreck vehicles.

[Aldaris]

The fleet master can only target a single unit within 18" can't it?

Yes. But he's only 25 points and a character, so just flying him up the board in a vendetta seems fine to me. And an aggressive army will walk into 18" pretty much immediately anyway.

I'm still not really feeling those fliers.  They only hit on a 5+ and if they are in hover doe they will be dead in a couple turns (or so butalized that they won't be able to actually hit anything due to lost wounds.).

The Vulture has the strafing run rule - +1 to hit against targets that don't have the fly keyword. So those 40 S5 shots hit on 4+. Target designated by OotF? 3+. Hover to top it off? 2+. And yes, they will be dead in a couple turns if an opponent wants 'em dead - but isn't that pretty much a universal truth?
 

You may be right of course. Maybe it's shit. But I sure like the idea.

[phillyt]

I think I'm totally confused!  I thought the officer of the fleet allowed fliers to reroll 1's on a single non flying enemy unit within 18".  Your saying he gets a +1 to hit which wasn't the way the gentleman I played was using him.

I didn't know vendetta have the strafe rule, that's excellent.

My biggest concern would be timing.  The officer of the fleet won't be able to get out until at least turn 2 if you're flying him up the board and into 18".  That gives the enemy a turn to try and soften up those fires.  On turn two the officer designates, you swap to fly mode, and you get your strong round of shooting, but now the vendetta/valk is a floating duck so to speak.  Depending on the mission type it can be good or bad.  If it's a kill point mission those officers are tasty little targets if you move on their position and remove the unit babysitting them.

All that said, those fliers will ruin something's day, they just seem a little expensive to pour so much into them.  But I have only played guard once!  Swamped them with orks.

[Aldaris]

I think I'm totally confused!  I thought the officer of the fleet allowed fliers to reroll 1's on a single non flying enemy unit within 18".  Your saying he gets a +1 to hit which wasn't the way the gentleman I played was using him.

I didn't know vendetta have the strafe rule, that's excellent.

Oh, your friend was right! It IS just a reroll ones. Huh.
Not the Vendetta, sadly. The Vulture has strafing run. But it's got transport capacity as a big plus!

My biggest concern would be timing.  The officer of the fleet won't be able to get out until at least turn 2 if you're flying him up the board and into 18".  That gives the enemy a turn to try and soften up those fires.  On turn two the officer designates, you swap to fly mode, and you get your strong round of shooting, but now the vendetta/valk is a floating duck so to speak.  Depending on the mission type it can be good or bad.  If it's a kill point mission those officers are tasty little targets if you move on their position and remove the unit babysitting them.

All that said, those fliers will ruin something's day, they just seem a little expensive to pour so much into them.  But I have only played guard once!  Swamped them with orks.

You may be right - it's not the list I really have planned anyway (since I lack the Vultures). But I do think it could work. I'm pretty sure at some point I'll be getting a Vulture since the model is fantastic, and then I'll give it a go.
 

Orks do look scary though! Considering it, Vultures may just be an excellent, entirely non-gimmicky answer to horde clearance, period. They're what, 170 points-ish? That's 340 for a pair. Way more survivable than any artillery piece and way more effective than mortar teams. 80 S5 shots hitting on 4+ or 3+, possibly rerolling ones, is something big mobs of Boyz are not going to enjoy.