Topic: Tactical Decision Game 1.3 (Emp Turn 3 vs Ogrebus)

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Finishing Empire Turn 3:

Alright, here we go to finish off our Turn 3.

Magic

     --on a 2-dice Shield of Faith we get 6. 
     --Bruiser responds with the rest of his 3 Dispel Dice and gets 6. 
     --Dispelled…  (Notice he does that a lot?)
     --the 2-dice Hammers of Sigmar goes off uncontested.   


Shooting

Our small Archer detachment shoots off some arrows at the Ogrebus (just because).  No effect.

Our large Archer detachment does better-  it drops 3 stinky Gnoblars into the dirt forcing another Panic test.  They roll snake-eyes.  I guess they really, really want a piece of the Archers shooting them down…


Combat

Are you ready for some cooooooooomBAT?!?  (hell yeah...ready for some football to start soon too!)

The Demis take no wounds while whipping out 6.  Gnoblars run 7.”  Demis hold and reform to face the ‘Blaster.  (I was tempted to Overrun until I noticed that if we did, the Ironblaster would probably get a fatal flank shot off on us!)

Now for the important battle-  all our forces make their Fear checks.  Our Halb detachment goes first.  They fail to score a wound-  even though they are pumped up by Sigmar.  The WP fails to score a wound but the BSB gets 2.   

The Mournfangs go.  One attacks the Halbs and kills all but 2 of them.  The other one attacks our WP and rips him into shreds.  Bruiser still hasn’t used his Breath weapon from the Dragonhide Banner…  He wants to use it to kill some expensive Greatswords but he decides to send the icy blast into the Halb detachment to finish it off.  Needless to say, they turn into icicles and die. 

Time for the Greatswords to shine.  Blessed by Sigmar, they get exactly the amount of wounds they need to finish off the Mournfangs.  Whew.

They reform 7-wide to face the Ogrebus.   

Here is what the carnage looks like at the end of our turn:

Tactical Decisions for 1.3:

So…the battle is half over!  While not related directly to battle field decisions, I have a few questions for you before we move on.

Despite the flaws in our current Victory Point system, they are an integral part of playing a Warhammer game and determining a “winner.”

Part of a General’s skill, then, is to be able to look at a battle in progress and determine if he is currently “winning” in the VP column…and if not, what has to be killed in order to achieve this. 

Without cheating and taking out a calculator to determine the actual points on the board remaining (even if you do this after the fact, please do not post it until I do) what does your “gut” tell you by looking at this graph, knowing what you know about our forces and the enemy?

Question 1:

Are we winning by 500 or more?
Are we winning by 100 to 500?
Is the battle currently a draw?
Are we losing by 100 to 500?
Are we losing by 500 or more?

Question 2:

Assuming we sacrifice all our Archers, can we win (by 100+ VPs) without taking out the Ogrebus?

[Fandir Nightshade]

Q1 I think we are at a draw  as we have  lost the stank, the knights, the luminark and the halberd detachment so far while he lost the mournfangs and a blaster.

Q2 we will score a slight win if we manage to kill the leadbelchers and the ironblaster while sacrificing our archers.....but as we are Sigmarites we will crush them pesky ogres next turn by a doulbe charge.



I still think it was a mistake to put the mage in the halberds....also the greatswords should have deployed 10 wide into horde no reason at all to put them 7 wide, we don´t need the ranks as they are stubborn and if we want to break the ogrebus the halberds will supply the ranks for that.

Also the death of the priest is what I meant with...the fangs will do as much damage as possible.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

the greatswords should have deployed 10 wide into horde no reason at all to put them 7 wide, we don´t need the ranks as they are stubborn and if we want to break the ogrebus the halberds will supply the ranks for that.

I actually thought about reforming them into a horde while rolling the dice and then forgot to do it.

Since we haven't moved on at all, I will make that correction.  It is the best choice.

[commandant]

I think fandir has answered the questions with regard the VP system.   In reality and end to this battle that does not take out the guthorde is a draw at best, because his main battle force is still at large.

Also why have the Greatswords reformed 7 wide?   They shout either be 5 wide (in an attempt to make them less of a target for the ironblaster (though I don't really mind the iron blaster shooting at the greatswords) or ten wide in order to have the most attacks against the guthorde.

[Fandir Nightshade]

I hope I don´t come over too arrogant I just point out my thoughts in a way what I would do...I question all my own decisions in the same way after a battle....especially after a one I lost. Therefore losing is often more gaining regarding an increase of knowledge.

LETS bust this bus then if we manage to attack from front and rear or front and flank or just flank we should have good chances of bringing it down.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

though I don't really mind the iron blaster shooting at the greatswords

This would probably be the only reason not to.  The IB can easily line up to potentially hit a full row of 10.  Combine that with the Leadbelchers and the Greatswords are going to shed some blood.

I hope I don´t come over too arrogant I just point out my thoughts in a way what I would do...

It is all good.  Nobody has the corner on the market for good ideas.

The thing I have really enjoyed about this TDG so far is that while we all don't agree (actually, I don't think we have had complete consensus on anything!)...we have all been civil and respected each other's opinions.   

[Fandir Nightshade]

Regarding the greatswords I would place them with a different facing more tipped towards the lead belchers and ironblaster preventing a flanking shot AND also giving us the chance to charge those two units if we wanted to we only need to see the end of the large ass ogre bus to charge them it will be hard to hide from the GS anyway.

[zifnab0]

I think we're close to a draw, maybe at a slight disadvantage.  We lost a lot of points in our chariots.  He has all of his characters in that bus.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Regarding the greatswords I would place them with a different facing more tipped towards the lead belchers and ironblaster preventing a flanking shot AND also giving us the chance to charge those two units if we wanted to we only need to see the end of the large ass ogre bus to charge them it will be hard to hide from the GS anyway.

The main reason I didn't do that was because I didn't want to give Bruiser an out by allowing him to purposely Overrun the archers and get outside the Greatswords LOS.

Sure, we could tweak it more towards the center...but I think we need to stay focused on the prize.  The Ironblaster can move 6" and do a full pivot to shoot the GS in the side.  If we make sure and avoid that, I think we are not covering down on the Ogrebus like we need to.

Taking my Bruiser hat off and trying to think like him from the Empire General trying to figure him out...no way I am letting the GS get to the flank of the Ogrebus next turn.  At the very least, those Leadbelchers are going to get in the way.

[zakalwe]

It looks pretty equal to me atm too.

As bruiser i would consider charging the halbs with a character. Try and swat our wizard, or if a challenge is issued , there is a good chance of winning the combat even.

Then charge the archers with main unit, reform to face GS, whilst character holds up halbs.

Aim would be assassinate life wiz. wipe out GS's with shooting ( ironblaster) and leadbelchers and combat later.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

I just had another idea and question to pose to you before we move on that is closely tied to my VP questions:

Do you want the GS reformed to focus on getting to the Ogrebus so we can hit it from multiple angles?

Or, do you want the GS to reform like the graph below to use the wall for protection from the shooting of the Leadbelchers and Ironblaster and to set up a charge on one of them on our next turn?  In this scenario, we would continue to try and avoid combat with the Ogrebus.

[sammay23]

1) I agree that we're at a draw.

2) I think we'd win if we wiped the second IB and the LB unit. I would have reformed the greatswords so they're threatening the charge on the IB and LBs and avoided the Gutstar. I'm not confident that we can take it down.

EDIT: Yay! HHG just proposed this. I completely support the new reform.

I can't remember, is the Gutstar stubborn? I assume it is.

Were I the Ogre player, I'd reform the Gutstar to face the greatswords, give the halberd bus my flank, and pull the LBs up to wipe the screening archers, giving me a clear path to the GS's. A halberd bus in the flank isn't going to do all that much to the star, and he can always have his characters make way to the flank, if he wants. Bruiser can still force a favorable engagement with his star, and in the meantime, his ranged units can continue to do decent damage.

IF the halberds were in horde, it'd be a different story. We can reform after the first combat, but the modified LD test will be difficult, I think... and we might not want to risk having fewer ranks than Bruiser.

It's a tough call, but I'd avoid the star and clean up the rest.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

I can't remember, is the Gutstar stubborn? I assume it is.

Nope, none of the Gutstar characters have the Crown of Command.

One thing of note that hasn't been discussed at all:  our AL is in the Halberd bus and he IS wearing the Crown of Command.  There are advantages to going to a horde formation in the future if we need to.   

[commandant]

There are advantages to going horde formation as soon as possible so.   The only advantage of bus is that it has more ranks (and that is a very slight advantage).   If we are stubborn (CoC) then we should be in horde next turn.

[Noght]

Kill the Leadbelchers and the Ironblaster.  Feed the Archers to the Gutstar.  Win the game.

[zifnab0]

Do you want the GS reformed to focus on getting to the Ogrebus so we can hit it from multiple angles?

Yes.  We need to threaten the Ogrebus, that forces his hand.  If we don't threaten the Ogrebus then he has freedom to dictate the terms of battle.

[sammay23]

One thing of note that hasn't been discussed at all:  our AL is in the Halberd bus and he IS wearing the Crown of Command.  There are advantages to going to a horde formation in the future if we need to.   

He won't last past the first round of combat, in my opinion.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

One thing of note that hasn't been discussed at all:  our AL is in the Halberd bus and he IS wearing the Crown of Command.  There are advantages to going to a horde formation in the future if we need to.   

He won't last past the first round of combat, in my opinion.

He won't last long in the bus...what I am hinting at is if the situation arises where we can go into a horde and keep him tucked away on the edge of it, we might be able to keep him out of BtB.

[commandant]

That depends, he'll last a fine amount of time we manage to hit their flank.

[Empire - Ulric]

Kill the Leadbelchers and the Ironblaster.  Feed the Archers to the Gutstar.  Win the game.

This 100% We don't want to go anywhere near that Gutstar unless we can hit it with everything we got at once. Keep feeding it archers until we are ready to tackle it.

Also I agree that we are probably running around a draw right now VP wise.

[Friar Metick]

Looking back at the lists I think the dead piles are as follows:

Empire - 15 halbs, 1 WP/dragonhelm, 6 ICK/FC/Banner of swiftness, 1 luminark, 1 steam tank

Ogres - 4 Mournfang std/musc/dragonhide banner, 1 Iron Blaster, and 2 sabrecats

I think the empire is losing at this point.

A dead IB or leadbelcher unit would even the score, taking out both of them would put empire ahead in VP's.

So I don't think I would want to take a chance on the AL dieing in combat right now. I would take out the LB's and IB, use the DGK and archers to kill the chaff (2 gnoblar units).

With no other units left on the table then I would focus on the gutstar and depending on the points difference it might be focusing on staying away from them if possible.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Survey says.....

Question 1 Answer:  Bruiser is winning right now by about 183 VPs.

Question 2 Answer:  we can win if we kill the Leadbelchers and the Ironblasters without losing the GS, Halbs, or Demis. 

If I did the initial math right, that would put us in the lead by 105 VPs.  Killing the Gnobs will double that. 

------------------------------------

Holy Cow Batman, that is close.

Just for your own knowledge, this Ogrebus comes in at a whopping 1393 points!!!!  What that means is-  if your plan is to ignore/delay an Ogrebus, you probably better kill everything else if you want to win.

Many of you have cooler heads than I do....because I really want a piece of that Ogrebus.  Remember the Battle Rager?  I don't just want to beat Bruiser, I want to take the best he has got and have him walk away empty handed.

However, I will listen to the majority.  This is what we are going with:

TDG 1.4 coming soon.

[sammay23]

I totally hear you, HHG, but those Battle Rager opportunities come up infrequently for us Empire players. I've had two glorious Gutstar moments - one with the old AL on Waltar in the front with the Speculum, and a horde of Greatswords in the side (not a very experienced opponent) http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=40104.0. The other was a glorious charge of IC Knights, Reiksguard, and DGs into a full Gutstar. It was ugly. Almost no ogres remained to attack back.

However, for those two glorious charges, I have had to play about 40 games against OK. I've learned the hard way that avoidance is our best tactic against the Gutstar.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

However, for those two glorious charges, I have had to play about 40 games against OK. I've learned the hard way that avoidance is our best tactic against the Gutstar.

I am glad that you have been contributing-  you have been a font of Ogre knowledge...obviously knowledge paid for in blood lost.

What is your win percentage against them?  Tipped in your favor, or theirs?

[Noght]

Now depending on what Bruiser does you can combo charge the Gutstar in the flank or rear and "pin" it limiting the attacks back.  You need the DG's close though for a rear charge.