Topic: TEG4: Sammay's All-Cavarly Tactical Thread (Empire only)

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Tactical Exposition Game 4:  Sammay's All Cavalry Tactical Thread

This thread is for the EMPIRE TEAM ONLY for TEG4.   

--If you are in the Ogre team, or plan to join it, leave now.
--If you want to join the Empire Team but haven't yet, then let me know.
--If you are visiting or plan to look at both team's threads to watch from the sidelines, then please refrain from posting comments in TEG4 till the battle is over.

Current Empire Team Members:

Sammay-  General
Sevensins
Forumite
Librisrouge
Greydeath
Voltan

--------------------------------------------------------

Team Empire-

Sammay-  please post any other list options you are thinking of so you can get team input on which list you guys go with.  Don't be shy about two STanks-  nothing is too competitive for TEGs!

Once you all have decided on a list, just let me know.  If you have magic users, we will do the spells next.

[SevenSins]

I'm in!
I'm not much of a tactician, but I bring luck 

[gray_death01]

Haha, hopefully we wont need luck, just a few well placed charges and hopefully real lances instead of rubber ones.

[librisrouge]

I've been including more and more cavalry into my lists lately so I'll be signing up over here. Need the experience.

[Forumite]

I don´t have an Empire Armybook so I don´t know where to get the points but I´d like a setup with 2 Stanks.

Wizard Lord, lvl 4, Beast, 4++ Ward Save, Dispel Scroll
3 Captasuses with some magical gear
2 units 5 Knights + Musician
A few units of 6 Knights
2 units of 5 Pistoliers
3 units of 3 Demigriffon + Musician
2 Stanks

Wizard Lord hide with the 5-Knight units or the Pistoliers. 6-knight units, Demigriffs and Stanks are the frontline fighting force, with Captasuses in support.

[gray_death01]

Just throwing part of a list I use out there...it normally has 2 cannons, Helblaster, and Engie instead of the Stank

Im going to go out on a limb and say we will be seeing double mobile cannon, a very large Mammoth, Gutstar, and probably some Maneaters with GW to hold up any Stanks.


Lord:
Grand master (155)
-Runefang (85)
-Charmed shield (5)
-Luck Stone (5)
[250]

Wizard lord (165) -normally uses Fire...but for Ogres id be tempted to go Death (mostly because i tired of either losing or tieing Orges -.-)
-Level 4 (35)
-Arabian carpet (50)
-Talismen of preservation (45)
[295]

Hero:

Warrior priest (65)
-Heavy Armor (2)
-Great weapon (5)
-Barded warhorse (16)
[88]

Warrior priest (65)
-Heavy Armor (2)
-Great weapon (5)
-Barded warhorse (16)
[88]


Captain (60)
-BSB (25)
-Full plate (6)
-Shield (2)
-Barded warhorse (16)
-White cloak of Ulric (50)
[159]

Core: {634}
Inner Circle knights *13 (325)
-musician (10)
-banner (10)
     -Gleaming pennant (5)
[350]

Knights *6 (132)
-Great weapons
-music (10)
[142]

Knights *6 (132)
-Great weapons
-music (10)
[142]

Special:
Reiksguard *9 (243)
-music (10)
-banner (10)
[263]

Demigryphs *3 (174)
-banner (10)
-music (10)
[194]

Pistoliers *5 (90)
-music (10)
[100]

Rare:
Steam Tank (250)

Unused: 175

So yeah, just a few ideas in there...gets the creative juices flowing.

[SevenSins]

2 stanks seems like a good idea, and if we want a chance at taking out their deathstar we'll need a lvl4 death mage for purple sun.....

[Forumite]

I want at least 2 Captasuses for the mobility, I think they´ll bring much more than a few warpriests. I don´t think Great Weapons is a good idea with small units of knights either. The Ogres will expect to be after us in initiative, bring their own GWs and easily cut through our armor. Lances at least give us a chance to thin them out before they strike back.

Gray, why do you use an arabian carpet for the Wizard Lord instead of a Pegasus? Is it for 4+ Look Out Sir?

[sammay23]

Hello lovely co-generals. Sorry I've been afk... was away for the weekend.

Okay... list.

Empire Knights are a GREAT matchup against OK. Their multitudinous attacks bounce off our 1+ AS. I'd like to propose a list I've been using as a starter, and see if folks want to modify it.

Before I list it, let me explain why I think it's worth using, especially as an example.

1) No BSB. In an all-cav list, it's hard to have a BSB where we want him. He's expensive. So, I removed him.
2) 14 units. In true MSU style, we want to show folks how to try swarming with multiple units, and to show the power of spreading out our points, so that no one unit-killer spell is really devastating.
3) Because it's quite unconventional. Let's challenge some assumptions.

Lvl4, Heavens, Steed, Scroll

Captain, Pegasus, Warrior Bane Sword, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant, Speculum
Captain, Pegasus, Sword of Might, Dragoneye Gem, Charmed Shield
CAptain, Pegasus, Lance, Helm of Skaven Slayer, Dawnstone

2x5 knights, Musician
1x5 knights
3x6 knights
3x3 Demigryphs, Banner
2xSteam Tank

Done.

Debate.

 

[sammay23]

Responding to some of your posts above:

IF our opponents throw a Gutstar our way, we will avoid it and wipe out everything else on the board.

Two Ironblasters will have a lot of trouble against this list. There are no super-juicy targets, and too many fast flanking units with which we will hit them in turn 2 or 3. We'll get them out of the picture ASAP. Hence 3 Captasus.

Maneaters can be trouble. A unit of six or so, with the Dragonmaw banner and pistols or greatweapons will need to be multi-charged. Our job will be to pull them out into the open and get two units of Demis into them.

I have not yet played against Mournfangs. I suspect that our Demis will handle them nicely, but would like to hear others' opinions.

Our first goal, and primary goal until completed, will be the removal of the inevitable 3 sabretusks

[Voltan Ignatio]

DGK will deal with any Mournfang nicely - the 1+ gives us the edge to grind them down if needs be.
I like this list very interested to see how it will play out.

[librisrouge]

I dig the list sammay but I'd just make one small change. The knights don't need the musicians as much as the captasus need shields. All but the charmed shield one is setup to be a +1 armor save guy and that is totally worth the lose of some musicians. It also might be worth making one of them the BSB. I know that you said they don't work but I think this list benefits from a mobile bsb. Maybe drop a knight to fit in the needed points?

[gray_death01]

Liking the MSU list, but to play the crazy, out there guy...do we want at least one unit of pistols for potential kitty hunting/pain in the arse duty? And to answer the question from above, my mage is painted up as the Dark Phoenix from X-men so its kinda fluffy plus its amazing how an opponent will either A) direct more than he should at killing the mage or B) forget all about a single, well placed model.

[Forumite]

We need something to kill sabretusks. Knights and captasuses will catch them, but won´t survive the countercharge. One unit of pistoliers should be enough.

The first Captasus, why the Warrior Bane? Is it that effective against Ogres? Either way we should drop the Pigeon Plucker Pendant. Ogres don´t have a single flying unit.

Lore, I think Heavens is a bad choice against a no-fly army. Beasts have the buffs, especially Savage Beasts on the Captasuses, and Death might work, but only if the Wiz Lord gets a Pegasus, he needs all the mobility he can get.

[SevenSins]

Looks like fun, I still think a death mage would be preferable, not on a pegasi though, too easy to snipe so steed is fine.

Let's try it Sammay style with no bsb, scary, but why not?

[sammay23]

@libris My lazy mistake is to blame here. All the Captains have Full Plate and shield, unless they have a magic shield. You are absolutely right about the importance of that AS.

@Forumite I've included the three Captasi I usually put in an all-comers list. I agree that the 5+ ward vs flyers isn't going to help us. Since it's only a 5 point item, how about we replace it with the enchanted shield? I use the warrior bane in conjunction with the VHS, because it's awesome to deny dangerous opponents like DPs their attacks. Should work on Ogre heroes as well, who are S5, but won't work so well against their champs. Perhaps we can reconfigure, although I like the idea of taking an uncustomized list.

Pistoliers. Okay. Here's my opinion. Sometimes they get the kitty. Sometimes the kitty gets them. Usually what I do is hit kitties with vanilla knights, and then reform to flee the upcoming charges from other units. Remember, one of the things we are going to be doing a lot of is fleeing. We want to break up their attack line, isolate units, and charge them from multiple directions.

I am open to including a unit of pistoliers. I think we can take the points out of core. But I am of the opinion that they don't really buy us much, and they're fragile compared to the rest of the army, which would give pistol-armed maneaters (for example) or leadbelchers, an excellent target.

As for lore, I think Heavens is often overlooked, and I want a chance to show how it can really shine. Against vanilla ogres with S4, one harmonic convergence essentially means we will take no casualties for two rounds of combat. Bear with me and let me see if I can show how useful Heavens can be for an all-cav list. Fair?

[Forumite]

Harmonic Convergence should work, and he will fear the Comet, I´m still not sure it´s the Lore to go with. Is there room for a Ward Save on the Wizard? He can´t rely on LoS forever.

Enchanted Shield on the first Captasi. Where does that put them for AS? 1+, 2+ and 2+? Does the Skaven Helm add to Armor Save? We want as many with 1+ as possible. We still haven´t used the Dragonhelm.

Maybe we can do without Pistoliers. We will need more Musicians then.

For this game, I want the list built to take on Ogres. As a TEG, it´s going to be a tough match, and we´ve also restricted ourselves to an all-cav list. We should bring every advantage we can to the table, to give us a chance and to give them a challenge. In TEGs/TDGs we test the viability of tactics, we should bring our best.

[gray_death01]

Agreed on the more musicians.

Its going to be interesting if we are going with this set up. A few more thoughts I am having:
1) Hero fighting Captasus...up in the air about it being as we are either getting a Gutstar (which we dont wish to take on) or several smaller units (which then combo charges with knights and Captasus would be excellent)

2) Ironblasters must be dealt with very quickly or Captasus and then Demi's will just be free points

3) I think we need to keep in mind with our lore choice that Mr Lvl 4 is going to be our only long range punch. Might even be our only way to take care of Blasters in a timely manner. I think Heavens could do this, but as always...the dice gods will be fickle.

[sammay23]

Yep, yep. You guys are pointing to the right challenges. Totally agree.

If we can take out the Ironblasters early, we stand an excellent chance of dictating all movement in the game. Let me describe what I usually do.

Depending on deployment, I will push up flank/flanks with the Captasi and small knight units. I use the two 5-man units with musicians to take out sabretusks and draw charges. I use the six-knight and captasus units to hammer the Ironblasters, or at least restrict them to a small area of the board with limited firing lanes early. By turn 3, we absolutely should be in base-to-base contact with the Ironblasters. If we don't drive them off the board, we'll at least tie them up.

IF they go Gutstar, our lives are actually easier. They'll have fewer other points on the board. We'll swarm those and then decide whether to take on the Gutstar.

I think we're going to have to risk leaving the Lvl 4 without a ward. 45 points is just not available in this list configuration. We may regret it, but we'll plan for it. If his accompanying unit gets knocked down to less than 5 models, we'll have another available for him to switch to.

How about we change up our Captasi a little, as suggested: We drop the warrior bane sword for a lance. That leaves them at 1+ 1+ 2+ (but the 2+ has the charmed shield).

As for long range punch - I'd argue we don't need it in this list, as our Captasi will be across the board fast, followed by our knight units. THAT is our ranged punch. The lvl 4 exists to facilitate that, and to add the odd magic missile.

Keep the feedback coming. Let's hone the list. I'll work up a final draft tonight, so give me as much feedback as possible today.

[SevenSins]

Ok, then we'll give heavens a go, I just hate deathstars with a passion and especially the ogre gutstar with mawbanner (or whatever it's called) and purple sun is the best answer to it IMO.

[sammay23]

Ok, then we'll give heavens a go, I just hate deathstars with a passion and especially the ogre gutstar with mawbanner (or whatever it's called) and purple sun is the best answer to it IMO.

If we still have 3 units of DGs and a few units of Knights by turn 5-6, and we've wiped out everything else, we can consider hitting the Gutstar. 18 s5 + 9 S6 attacks will hammer even that unit, particularly if we hit them from multiple angles.

My guess, however, is that they won't go with a gutstar. They'll know we can march circles around it, and will take more, and smaller, units.

[sammay23]

Okay folks... taking your feedback into account. How do we like this?

Edit: HHG This is our final list. You can post it.

2500 pts

LVl 4, Steed, Heavens, Scroll, 4++

Speculum Captasus
       Lance;
       Full Plate Armour)
      Imperial Pegasus
      Enchanted Shield
      Van Horstman's Speculum
      Luckstone

Dawnstone Captasus
      Lance
      Full Plate Armour;
      Shield
      Imperial Pegasus
      Helm of the Skavenslayer
      Dawnstone

Anti-Fire Captasus
      Full Plate Armour)
      Imperial Pegasus
      Sword of Might
      Charmed Shield
     
2x5 Knights, Musician

3x6 Knights, Musician

3x3 Demigryphs, Banner, Musician

2xSteam Tank

[Forumite]

I want that 4++ ward save. I say we either cut down two of the 6-Knight units to make room for it, or remove one entire unit and give them all musicians.

[sammay23]

OKay okay

I dropped one unit of vanilla knights, gave the lvl 4 a 4+ and gave all units musicians. Edits above.

[gray_death01]

Seems good to me being as we are going MSU.  I do like the "Any situation" Captasus we have. Just hope we dont get units tangled up and we win the roll to go first (long shot as they will probably get the +1).  I know the rest of ya are all smart, but just want to throw out there that when we deploy, we make sure any Maneatters cant deploy on our flanks, would be a terrible way to start the game...