Topic: Stroll thinks about the empire.

[jaggedjimmyj]

Then again I am not that pleased with people who write in letters because I can't be bothered learning what all the silly letters mean.

lol, what?
If not in letters, how do you want people to write?

[Fandir Nightshade]

Pictures!

On topic I will add more once I am through and sorted my mind but so far I think it is bloody brilliant.

[Bildskoene Bengtsson]

Best username in a good while! Welcome! 

I suppose you're Swedish then?
Or is my username funny in every language?

You confused me for someone who cares what you think

I really don't wanna start my days at W-E with a petty argument, so let's bury the hatchet. You used your cool internet lingo (win!) and I made a funny joke about it (win!). See... everybody is happy.

On the topic, I find the ideas interesting although I really don't care for that Milan dude.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Done...and thanks for the great post.

Kudos for the Ceasar Millan reference....awesome sauce!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-ztHLsOkwo

On your points on the army I share lots of your insights and gained a lot of thought food.

I like to skip the pegasus for the general as I feel tricked out of the additional wound a captain gets out of the deal, but using the general in combo with a bsb sounds...well perfect. Event he magical kit is what I would suggest but I am Swabian (they are the German Scots) so I like stuff cheap so the BsB with armour kit and the charmed shield no ward save...I never make my ward saves anyway. General with crown of command and 4+ save sounds nice though.

I suggest to use more cannons (make that two at everything up to 2999 points) for your build, they are great to kill off chaff, characters, other artillery, monsters and are pretty reliable on it (statistically if you keep rolling the 1 for wounding or on the number of wounds you do you just have to stick to it they pay off almost every game).

If you spread them out on each flank you get enfilading shots, on units. One full hit on a unit of knights or even a horde of infantry usually pays their price.

Your ideas on the steam tank are also spot on, in last edition it was a very big hit or miss thing. Either the enemy army had tools to deal with it and it was done at turn 2 (either destroyed or just sitting around) or with no tools you could pick the enemies army and battle plan apart with the stank dominating the centre of the battlefield. I didn´t like to use it as it was a huge liability for my own plans. Now it is awesome and has incredible damage potential. I am not sure yet if I even want to try to mount the hochland on it. moving around and sniping wizards on 5+ (short range of 18 inches) is not too bad.

Your greatsword analysis is also spot on. I really like the models but I feel physical pain when I make lists including them in my army. Especially competive lists. Always striking last no matter the circumstances mean no matter what i fight I get wounds in. This really starts to hurt if I match them up against stuff striking before them and not also striking last, savage big unz killing of 10 greatswords before I get to strike is just something I am not in to . I never understand Warriors of Chaos players who go for greatswords on their marauders and don´t use flails They are perfect. Striking at I4 with S5 at Ws4 for 5 points? I never get why anyone uses Chaos warriors. Well anyhow I try to mitigate this in my list with the lore of life. Increasing their toughness by +2 is enough to keep them alive against everything but the hardest of all hitters (bloodknights and similar) and reviving them with the regrowth spell. But they are a suboptimal choice.

Note on the witch hunters you can´t snipe when you make a stand and shoot reaction. Still I think a cheap witch hunter is a solid choice.

[Dosiere]

The idea of mounting my general and/or BsB on a Pegasus sounds strange, but I might just try it out.  I will have to get over the idea of my characters not having "look out , sir!" rolls;  this has been beaten into my head for the last 10 years of playing. 

I'm not so sure about the Steam Tank, only because of the random movement.  It can very easily rocket away from your lines to a place you don't want it, or creep forward and leave a flank open.  Even though I like the way it works better than last edition, that random movement will mean you just can't count on it.

I would seriously consider taking a cannon in your list.  Calisson made a good point about keeping it with an engineer and your helblaster.  It maximizes the utility of the engineer and benefits both war machines. 

[commandant]

Then again I am not that pleased with people who write in letters because I can't be bothered learning what all the silly letters mean.

lol, what?
If not in letters, how do you want people to write?

In words, people write in words.

[jaggedjimmyj]

[Finlay]

[Derek Contyre]

Then again I am not that pleased with people who write in letters because I can't be bothered learning what all the silly letters mean.

lol, what?
If not in letters, how do you want people to write?

In words, people write in words.

Bahahahahahaha If I could sig that it would be the second best day of my life...(the first being actually able to win a fantasy game  )

But back on topic, some excellent theoryhammer you put out Strollinthewoods, I like the idea of multiple small units just zipping around the battlefield, almost like Skyros and his 7th ed armies on this site.(at least I think it was him  )

But the thought of multiple small units will take some time for my brain to get around to....

Damn 8th ed and their horde units.
Though I am an advocate of small unit frontages with ranks, I find that with the state troops, in larger games, 40 is an ideal number, I deploy them 10x4 formation, but after initial combat I redeploy into 6x8 to enable other hittier troops to move in and carry the battle off the infantry.

Honestly your posts weren't that long at all, and I started reading them this afternoon and i got to Markov's post and though "that was too long? hang on a sec... Oh wow was I lost in the words just then" so if you keep writing tactical analysis like that you are doing pretty well.

[rothgar13]

<stuff>

Your greatsword analysis is also spot on. I really like the models but I feel physical pain when I make lists including them in my army. Especially competive lists. Always striking last no matter the circumstances mean no matter what i fight I get wounds in. This really starts to hurt if I match them up against stuff striking before them and not also striking last, savage big unz killing of 10 greatswords before I get to strike is just something I am not in to . I never understand Warriors of Chaos players who go for greatswords on their marauders and don´t use flails They are perfect. Striking at I4 with S5 at Ws4 for 5 points? I never get why anyone uses Chaos warriors. Well anyhow I try to mitigate this in my list with the lore of life. Increasing their toughness by +2 is enough to keep them alive against everything but the hardest of all hitters (bloodknights and similar) and reviving them with the regrowth spell. But they are a suboptimal choice.

<more stuff>

As a WoC player, I can answer this one pretty easily. Marauders take Great Weapons because their lot in life is to grind - they'll rarely break a unit on the first charge (though they usually win), and after that the Flails are useless. Great Weapons deliver consistent offense, and the Marauders have the numbers to absorb the inevitable casualties. Flails match up a little better against certain opponents (like Savage Big 'Uns), but Marauders lose those fights anyway.

As for why people bring Chaos Warriors, I hinted at it above, but the fact of the matter is that there are fights where your Marauders will get their arses kicked, no matter how many you bring. Examples include the aforementioned Savage Big 'Uns, Gors (with or without the Beast Banner), and Frenzied Corsairs. Chaos Warriors with Halberds match up A LOT better against those units. It's all about the tools in the toolbox.

As for Greatswords... personally, I think they're fantastic. You don't get a lot of their benefits if you pit them against heavy infantry, though - their goal is to run into something that can't do much about that awesome 4+ armor save or those WS4 S5 swings, and chop it up. They can also hunt monsters reasonably well thanks to their ability to take magic banners, though IC Knights arguably do that a bit better.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Marauders with flails won´t win against Savage orcs? Why?

they have the same damage output only that marauders are half the points.

also imagine 3 blocks of 40 marauders with flails the rest filled with tasty support (marauder horse...you guessed with flails) and two hellcannons. WOC can be tough but most armies I see I am very happy to face...big chosen star 2-3 tough blocks little support and on a bad day a hellcannon.

[rothgar13]

You have less attacks (50 v. 40), you wound on a lower value (3+ for you, 2+ for him), and he has a 5+ Ward save on all of his guys. In math-hammer terms...

50 Khorne Marauders, Flails, Musician, Standard-Bearer v. 39 Savage Orc Big 'Uns, Full Command, AHWs + Savage Orc Great Shaman, Fencer's Blades, Lucky Shrunken Head

Marauders go first. 40 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s, allowing a 5+ Ward save.

Marauders: (40)*(1/2)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 8.89 Wounds

Not even enough to trim the fat off the back rank. Now, the Savage Orcs go. 51 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 2s, allowing no save.

Savage Orcs: (51)*(1/2)*(5/6) = 21.25 Wounds

As you can see, that was an arse-kicking (albeit against a much more expensive unit). Run them into Gors or Corsairs, and you'll see similar results, though Flails will fare slightly better in the first round against Gors. They'll get demolished in the first round - you're going to get into a grind assuming you stick around to begin with, and that means the Great Weapon is superior.

The two lists of WoC that I favor are the MMU hard-punching type where most units are dangerous on their own and lethal in concert, or the extreme-points-denial one that will simply advance and give you no soft target to hit - the easiest thing to get points out of in that army is a Warshrine with a 3+ Ward save.

[Fandir Nightshade]

And loosing 20 of those guys before they get to strike and the same thing next combat phase helps?

 

sorry not convinced...why would you field 50 Khorne marauders? 40 is perfect 10 wide ....I even would think about fielding them only 30 strong.

If the Big uns attack in the front you made a mistake...bait them away with marauder horse due to frenzy they HAVE to overrun.

Same with Khorne marauders though so better be careful.

 

In two rounds of combat those great sword marauders are down 30-40 men before they get to strike a second time. No thank you rather have them strike at the splendid I4.

Don´t use chaos warriors as they won´t fare much better against those Big unz.

They are overly expensive especially the chosen deathstar they seldon make their points back even though it is a good feeling to have an invincible unit on the table.

[rothgar13]

The Chosen might not make their points back, but they almost never give them up, which in a properly built list is just as good, because other units will do the killing.

Going back to our example - yes, you want the ability to put a couple of extra cheap casualties on the Savage Orcs before you get smashed off the board - the extra guys you'll have to swing with in the second round (less than in the first round, because Choppas will have worn off) for taking Flails will still do less damage than the ones with Great Weapons. You basically take the entire "fat" rank off, then you can crash another unit in there to mop those Orcs up. The reason you bring 50 (sometimes even 60) guys in a block is because Marauders usually take heavy casualties no matter what they're fighting, and you want them to be combat-worthy after they mop up their first block, provided that they win.

Warriors you can send against Big 'Uns because they strike first. 2 squads of 18 Khorne Halberd Warriors fielded 6-wide clock in at approximately the same price as those Savages, put out almost the same amount of attacks as they do if you combo-charge them in there (51 for the Orcs with 3 ranks v. 48 for the Warriors), and (importantly) strike before them and hit on a better value. Those 2 squads actually beat those Savage Orcs, as demonstrated below:

2 x 18 Chaos Warriors, Halberds, Mark of Khorne, Musician, Standard-Bearer v. 39 Savage Orc Big 'Uns, Full Command, AHWs + Savage Orc Great Shaman, Fencer's Blades, Lucky Shrunken Head

Chaos Warriors go first. 48 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, allowing a 5+ Ward save.

Math: (48)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 14.22 Wounds

The Orcs lost the whole 4th rank and a bit of the third, so their output is a bit diminished. 47 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s, allowing a 6+ save.

Math: (47)*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 13.05 Wounds

Bear in mind that these Wounds are split between the two units, so it'll be 6.525 Wounds apiece, which is enough to take out their "fat" rank, but not deny the rank bonus for the second rank on either unit. The Savage Orcs have 1 more rank, but that cancels out with the Chaos Warriors' charge bonus. They win that round, strip the Frenzy from the Savages, and they also lose the Choppas bonus. Next round, the Chaos Warriors win handily, because they'll damage the unit badly enough to not care overly much about the return attacks, as demonstrated below:

11 + 12 Chaos Warriors, Halberds, Mark of Khorne, Musician, Standard-Bearer v. 25 Savage Orc Big 'Uns, Full Command, AHWs + Savage Orc Great Shaman, Fencer's Blades, Lucky Shrunken Head (no Frenzy, no Choppas)

Chaos Warriors go first. 47 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, allowing a 5+ Ward save.

Math: (47)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 13.92 Wounds

The Orcs have lost most of the guys not in the front rank, so their attack output is reduced to 34 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, allowing a 5+ armor save.

Math: (34)*(1/2)*(1/2)*(2/3) = 5.67 Wounds

The Orcs have trimmed the rank bonuses from the Warriors, but they've lost them as well. They're going to be running, and the fight is over.

And while Savage Big 'Uns can be baited, that doesn't mean it's easy. You can build an O&G army around the Savages, and a host of units to clear any chaff that could be used for baiting them. Fanatics, Mangler Squigs, Trolls, Wolf Riders, Wolf Chariots, and Doom Diver Catapults are all useful for this purpose. I play both of these armies, and believe me when I say it's not much of an issue.

[strollinthewoods]

You need a plan, when it comes to deployment of your army.
Well to be honest you might not need one, but I do. If I dont, there is no structure at all
to the way im playing. So for me the juourney starts on a sheet of paper, first I put down what I would like in my list- then I start to envision what I have put into the current list.
This I do on paper, and I roughly jot down the units and start to shuffle them around.

There is always things to consider, when determening how you can deoploy.
Like for instance where is your general, and your bsb?
What units can safly be put outside the leadership bubble?
What units need to support one anohter?

This is pretty obvious stuff.- but for me its very important stuff also.  Let me just take a couple of minutes and look at why and how this is helpfull to me.
I try and force myself to alternate between my dark elfs and orcs and goblins on turnaments. And last, it was Orcs and goblins that I brought.  This is a good example, because there is so many things you need to take seriously in the deoployment of your list.. its very unforgiving if you screw up.

I went with a 2 wave style with a mounted black orc with crown of command leading my armie. I call it a carrier unit when all the unit really does is bring the crown bearer safly forward, and he had such a unit of 5 savage orc big uns boar boys.

I went refused flank each and every game on the tournament, - its a chicken and egg dilemma. Because you have limited ld bubble with your general, and if you put him in the senter of the board, you create problems for yourself with regards to your flanks, beeing with very poor ld indeed. And with a strong center, you need to have good flanks also, to avoid beein pincered from both sides from your opponent.
- So to solve this issue, I went with refused flank, and anchored the center of my lines with the aracknarock.- This model needs to be within 12 of the general to be a reliable
roadblock on the all so important flank its protecting. So it dictates were my general can go. I had a unit of 8 trolls. They need to follow the gerneral at all times etc. When you have lots of overlapping requirements like this, I find its a good exersice to scribble down some suggestions to myself. Make a few different alternatives, and look at them.
And consider how the flow of the game will unfold itself with each alternative.
- Going for a refused flank, you need to pay heed to the different movement charactereistics of you units. Faster the longer out to your flank you get, if you
want a fast sweeping motion were all your units support one another upwards. What I mean is that slower units support the faster ones, in a way that makes sence.
   This is a good opurunity to talk about some of the benefits of small frontages.
When you go with small unit frontage, you more often than not get the opurtunity to support charge from behind. This is a great benefit in that you can stack some of your

[strollinthewoods]

units in space backwards towards your table edge, and not only utilizing your horizontal space. Its also a bit more difficult for your opponent to try and block compared to supporting flank charges.

Going back to my ors and goblins example, and the point about thinking on paper prior to actuall combat. With that list I did 2 things, refused flank, and a 2 wave setup with an aggressive - counter charge minded setup, with fast wolf riders to act as speedbumps to align the fights for the 2 waves.- Meaning that if the first wave is hit, the fight will not take place before the 2nd wave supports. But not only that- I made it one of my primary goals to release fanatics as a charge repsonse when the first wave was hit. so my 2nd wave was 2 units of night goblins with short bows, and 3 fanatics each. Releasing fanatics as a charge respons is more likely to inflict 2d6 than it is to inflict d6, and is truly awsome in raw damage output in 8ed. But were am I going with all this? You cant release fanatics as a charge response if your fanatics already is released, and to prevent them from beeing released prematurly I needed to make sure it was very very hard to get them out with chaff units. The way thinking on paper helped me, was in figuring out prior to combat at what distance from the enemy I can deploy against different movement units.- Lets say flyers, they go 20+ the 8, meaning I always had to put my night goblin units at least 5" from the 12"(29 from flyers) mark in my deployment zone. Then I put wolf rider units, and wolf chariots in front , making it very hard to leap frog to get to the night goblins.
   This is the stuff I like to know, beforehand, and its not the kind of thing I am suited to start thinking to much about in a game. I also pretty much know what units are supporting one another, in a general sence.
The orc list was not suited to do anything else than a refused flank, but it was very very good at just that . And the 2 wave approach on a limited space, with fanatic and mangler support worked great, and did just some insane ammounts of damage over the course of the tournament. I could keep my opponent in the dark as to what side I would commit to, but I could not very well adapt to my opponent and go for say 2 strong flanks with a weak center type of play.- knowing this beforehand makes you less likely to be tempted by a "brilliant" idea during the stressful hours of a tournament where your bloodsugar might start declining and the brain overheating.
   The dark elf list is much much more adaptable, with generally higher ld all around I am less restricted, but there are things to watch up for. Like all the cold one pieces need to be inside the re-roll or the general, and preferably both. Harpies should always stay near the general, and for that reason alone, I am weary when deoploying them. As I have said before, I can make last moment decisions with my heroes in deployment to put lots of force on one flank or a weakspot I notcie in the enemy deployment, and I try to be conservative, and deploy my harpies when I know for sertian were my general is going.  Harpies with ld 10 is not at all comparable to harpies with ld 6, not even remotely.

[strollinthewoods]

I have just begun the work with thinking through what type of deployments can be suited with the empire.  Will come back to in when I have more concrete thoughts about it. Before I log off for today, there is a minor thing conserning (hobbits) the empire I`d like to share.  Steadfast gets transfered over to the detachments.- this is just insanly good to be able to do. But as Fandir mentioned in an earlier post, when he was talking about that he felt tricked into thinking that you get more bang for your bucks with a hero lvl character on a pegasuss, becaue you gain that last wound for free- I know exactly what he is talking about,  and Ive been there, felt that myself with my dark elfs.
But the thing is you sometimes need to use your hydra breath on skaven slaves, and you need those extra 50 pts of magic equipment a lord gives you- and here is the point-
You dont always benefit from being steadfast with your detachments! So dont let yourself be fooled into thinking its all good, when in fact its not always the case, you need to be the judge from case to case.- Let me explain what Im refering to.
   Lets say your detachment is a pretty standard 5 archer type detach, you intend to use it as a diverter.- As a diverter its almost always going to be bad with steadfast.
As a speedbump, it will often be bad. Lets take diverter first. 

Incoming enemy unit, you go forward to meet it with your archer diverter.- Put them in a conga line, and align them so the enemy unit will have to charge them, align, and if he pursues, he will be vaulnerable to flank charge from your parent unit.
The purpose here is to get your parent unit into combat without it beeing charged in the prosess. If the archers are steadfast they probably will not break, and that means they will most likely be choped down in the next combat phase(afterr your parent have countercharged) and give up all their points, and easy almost free combat resolution points for the opponent- your parent is probably in the flank, and the ones hitting the archers would not have been hitting anything had they not been there.
The main thing here, is the fact that you loose your archers, without actually gaining anything- had they broken from combat, you have always a good chance of escaping, and thus not giving away any points at all. In a redirector setting, your opponent is not even likely to pursue, but to make a restrain, and combat reform, to meet your parent head on instead of in the flank. (with msu, he probably will get one in the flank no matter what though)
Even when they act as a speedbump, and the opponent will almost always pursue to get into the parent unit, you get that 50% of getting out of harms way. Only have 1 archer left and not likely to rally?  Not to worry, a benefit of beeing agressie and going forward, before switching over to a defansive posture in the middle of the map, is that you can probably run for 2-3 turns before you go off the edge, chances are good you dont loose any points.- I often dont, and my harpies run with swift stride =)  Do think about little things like this when setting up your speedbump, often you can align it just a little, and make the distance to the table edge 3 turns later 4 turns away instead.

You cant choose not to be steadfast.- so my point here is, make sure they are outside 3" when you dont want them to.- and since they cause panic, better make that 6,2 "

[rothgar13]

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, punctuation and grammar, please. Those posts of yours are bloody hard to read, and it's not because they're long.

Also, got any batreps for us to examine yet?

[Fandir Nightshade]

Strollin we pretty much think alike. If I know what I am facing I already plan the battle in my mind.

What will he bring? As I don´t like tailored lists I always want to go for a tournament army, something I would field at an all comers event even when I know it will only be one game against Orcs and Goblins (to mend the pain of not going to the Eurobash I will fight a game 2500 points against O&G this Thursday).

Do I have the tools to destroy what would be the worst possible threat against me. O&G I fear most, rock lobbers, Arachnarork spider, doom diver and wolf chariots and Savage Orc Big Unz. Most of the stuff needs artillery to deal with so I go through the target priority for my 2 cannons (3 with the steam tank...I am already looking forward using that gun as I almost never fired it the last editions). So first I want to get rid of the ARachnarork as most likely his lobbers will fire at my stank (hurrah he has 10 wounds and should be able to take the punishment), after the spider is down (and I will try to align shots to get more than one target under the cannon template) the rock lobbers, the chariots are bad if they hit home but I have to try to get them charged by my stuff or try to destroy them with the helblaster (he is much less efficient in killing the spider and most of the times won´t be in range for the rock lobbers). The rest of the orc army I have other tools to deal with savage big unz get to eat archer screens and I will try to get off a flank charge on them with a regiment or the stank (most likely destroying them or crippling them enough).

So the battle already unfolds in my mind even though I will play him on thursday. If he brings other stuff than the savage big unz, the spider and the rock lobbers....fantastic as he uses less efficient tools and my cannons will have other juicy targets like characters. More infantry means less space for him and his maneuvering will be harder for him.

Strollin at your Pegasus General...I thought about it and I can´t see it, I think I rather put an Arch Lector of Sigmar on a Horse slap some more armour on him and hand him the Crown of Command and the white Cloak (possible build mount+barding, heavy armour, shield, helm of the rat slayer, crown of command, white cloak). This way he can hide in the Knight unit I plan to field and is still pretty flexible, his force multiplier is bigger as the hatred on the knights is a huge boost, the minus 1 to hit usually effects 3 models fighting the knights, fear makes them immune to fear and once in a while if I don´t forget it fighting enemy ws1 foes is nice. The Hold the Line of the General most likely won´t work if he is on his own. I will try the BsBgasus though charmed shield, pistol, sword of might, and dawnstone!


Also important for the rules, there is still a discussion going on about the steadfast, you most likely only get it if the Parent AND the detachment are in combat as long as the main regiment isn´t in combat the detachments are not steadfast.

[noibn]

I'm intrigued by some of the posts here regarding Greatswords and Flagellants. I'm not the most experienced general so maybe someone here could break this down for me. In what way exactly is Flagellants better than Greatswords in the new book?

Flagellants have no armor, cost 1 point more, has 1 WS less and are only S5 in the first round of combat. Also, the changes to the martyr rules make them more random now, no? They do have hatred thou.

Greatswords are ASL, but other than that I can't see any cons to them compared to Flaggies. So, Greatswords have armor, better WS, are S5 every round of combat, are 1 point cheaper and can take a magic banner now. Does ASL really make that big of a diffrence?

I'm just not seeing it, but like I said, I'm not that experienced.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Greatswords aver very reliable regarding leadership

Flagellants are 100 % reliable.

They never panic, they never run, they always die to the last man. You can operate with them on the other side of the battlefield without worrying that a terror check sends them off fleeing.

Also ASL is in my opinion huge. You can´t under no circumstances and no matter the choice where you fight with them fight without getting hits in first.

I still will go with greatswords as I like the models a lot and also the background of state troopers over flagellants. The boost of stubborn to the detachments is what cuts it out for me. but for a msu approach with units running around everywhere on the table and not advancing as one big blob, flagellants are better (as they never run).

[strollinthewoods]

I am very sorry rothgar 13,- there seem to be something terribly wrong with the start of the last post. I sat down and started it when I came home from work, and finished it later in the evening. When I saw how horribly bad the first part of the post is, it was to late, as I had already posted it. But you are spot on in pointing out that its almost on the brink of being unreadable. I hope you also feel it gets somewhat better
further down in the post.

I will take more care to avoid post like that one in the future, Im far from proud of it (think the problem is that I was so much interrupted and started and stopped sentences and trains of thoughts in my head each time it happened, and the train wreck of a post is the result)

Im hoping to get some gaming done this weekend, will come back to it.

[noibn]

Greatswords aver very reliable regarding leadership

Flagellants are 100 % reliable.

They never panic, they never run, they always die to the last man. You can operate with them on the other side of the battlefield without worrying that a terror check sends them off fleeing.

Also ASL is in my opinion huge. You can´t under no circumstances and no matter the choice where you fight with them fight without getting hits in first.

I still will go with greatswords as I like the models a lot and also the background of state troopers over flagellants. The boost of stubborn to the detachments is what cuts it out for me. but for a msu approach with units running around everywhere on the table and not advancing as one big blob, flagellants are better (as they never run).

True, Flaggies are unbreakable so they'll never run. But given stubborn, BSB reroll - and in case you run your BSB in with the Greatsword - HtL Greatswords are not very likely to run either. I can see a smal unit of Flaggies being a better tarpit than a smal unit of Greatswords, but when it comes to big blocks (which is what I assume most people will be running Greatswords as in a 2500-3000 point list) I don't see Flaggies having a huge advantage leadership wise.

I don't have the book with me but I believe that flaggies are still base initiative 3? So even thou they're not ASL there are plenty of nasties that will go before them in CC no?

Flaggies and Greatswords are suppose to be the "killy" empire infantry choices, ie you run either of them because you actually want to deal some wounds. It is in this regard that I'm comparing Flaggies and Greatswords. Flaggies are all about the charge, so first round of combat they have +2 S, after that they're just WS 3 dudes with no armor. Also, it's possible that they don't get their buffs from "the end is neigh" off if you're unlucky with the dice rolls.

I guess it all comes down to what you intend to use them for, and how you set up your army. Like you mentioned, in the case of multiple small units Flaggies would be a better pick. But other than that I don't see why one would go with Flaggies over Greatswords.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Nahhh I rather have your thoughts pour out unorganized than not at all.

Out with it, do the proofreading once you have the time and muse.

@ Noib Flaggies go before

Ironguts
Bestigors
Dwarves
Savage Orcs
Marauders with Great Weapons
Everything non High Elf with Great weapons

oh and Greatswords

Enough choice of smashing in the face and even without those they go at the same time with most other armies except Elves and Skaven.

What I dislike on them are the 2 attacks (and their point cost for that) this means a horde is basically a bad idea I would suggest fielding them 14 strong 7*2 or if they face hordes go to 12 wide (perhaps a unit of 19 could be fun if you play a hoardy environment 12/5.

Greatswords are unlikely to run but they do run once in a while.

Lizardmen slann lead temple guard are very unlikely to run but even that happens once in a while.

[strollinthewoods]

The pegasuss thing is about movement. And flying is just huge when it comes to that.

It also highly depends on your playstyle if you need him to be THAT maneuverable. But I want him to be where he needs to be exactly when he should be there,( and not come late as some wizards do)

See how it can quickly become a problem when your opponent starts taking pre-emptive meassures to keep your normal steed mounted hero away from where he needs to be? Lets say he just lands a unit of harpies in front of your crown unit? How is your general going to get in front of the horde he desperately needs to hold up in the next turn?

Its not a no-brainer choice to put him on a pegasuss. But with the charmed shield in a unit the first cannon ball will be deflected, and you need a good ward.