Warhammer-Empire.com
Between the Battles & the Art ... => The Count's Tavern => Topic started by: Zegroth on June 19, 2006, 08:03:20 PM
-
I know this is not very probable but there are frequest skimishes between the two.
Now my question to you all is, considering we are much weakened by SOC and our armies are pretty scattered, if the Brettoni did decide to expand their lands a wee bit, how would it turn out?
Personally I feel they would be slaughtered at the main keep that defends the pass from Brettonia, but once they break through there, they would run amuck destroying ALOT of our infrastructure. Knightly orders would stand a chance but would be overrun by the superior number of Brettonian knights and with their superior maneuverability, we would not be able to catch them in our lands.
Pitched battle? well, if they made it to us I think, it would not go too well....
Opinions?
-
Might be a repeat of that little paragraph on when Karl Franz used demi-pikemen to defeat the Brettonian Cavalry. The Imperial army is still one to be reckoned with, but the morale is low after the death of Valten.
I'd suspect that if the Brettonia made it too far inland, the Dwarves would come to our aid, as well.
-
against Brettonia?
No.
Brettonia helps the Dwarves as well, they are stout allies. There was an incident in the Brettonian army book where an army of questing knights broke a seige on a dwarf Karak. I think they would just sit it out.
-
I think what might save the Empire is its size. Brettonia's military strength lies in its Knights who aren't that numerous. So they might be able to defeat the Empire in battle but would be unable to control the territory, as all the castles, forts and towns would be held by garrisons. And we know that a lance of knights are not going to do much to a castle wall. The Empire could probably wait it out until the Brettonians were forced to withdraw through lack of supplies, guerrilla attacks and that their feudal troops would be limited to a certain call up period, slipping home to gather in the harvest as autumn comes. Over that winter I think Nuln would be black with smoke as they make more cannons......
What could be possible is a more limited attack on the southern states, if the Emperor himself fell as a result the lack of leadership and resulting power vaccumn, as different parties staked their claim to succesion might leave the opening the Brettonians need. But I think its more likely that a united front against the invaders would prevail, with counter attacks coming from the untouched, but poorer provinces to the north. Any advance further north would open the Brettonians to hostile winter temperature without secure bases. Also they would have to cross major waterways, which could alternatively provide nice boundries to an expanded realm.
-
unless their beloved king came, I dont think peasents would be an issue. Tey fight because they are told to, they dont want to. Our soldiers on the other hand are paid free men. Paid free men who are fighting for their families as well.....
Knights on the other hand would be an issue :roll:
-
I think under the extreme circumstances a Master Engineer would come up with the idea of an air delivered bomb. He would use all his skill and expertise to make an air going vessel that was invisible to the naked eye, he would call this the 'Stealth Bomber'. After experimenting with various bomb types he finally decides on his favourite, the 'Napalm Bomb'.
The Empire's people cheer the Engineer as he sends 2 Stealth Bombers on their maiden voyage.The bombings are successful and the people of Brettonia are all but wiped out and are no longer a threat to the people of the Empire.
Karl Franz adds the Engineer to his list of personal staff. With such backing the Engineer has the funds and resources to design a fire breathing weapon he call the 'Flame Thrower'. Seeing the potential Karl Franz orders a 50 strong party of men to be armed with the Flame Throwers and enter the Wood Elf Realms. Needless to say the Engineers new weapons are also a success and the Wood Elfs live no more.
Other races are now getting concerned at the brute force of the Empire and friendly ties are being broken. Soon the whole world errupts into war. Great scribes will go on to call this Old World War One ( or OWW1 for short). People are no longer safe in their houses as raiding parties are coming from all directions.
Karl Franz orders his personal counsel to come up with ideas to stop all the fighting. Immediately he is approached by a young wizard who offered his help. Recently while mixing a potion he made a bizarre concoction he claimed could be lethal to certain races. He called this new invention 'Rat Poison' claiming it could wipe out Skaven Hoardes by the millions. And so it did and that was a threat eliminated.
Things were certainly picking up for the Empire huge threats of the past were wiped out and new inventions were popping up to eliminate present threats. The war waged for many years more but the threats were lessening.
Karl Franz was then approached by a Trainee Engineer by the name of John O'Conner who said he may be able to end the war with one of the projects he was working on. Intrigued Karl Franz told him to continue. The young engineer rolled out a number of blue prints detailing work on his project. After hours of consultation Karl Franz agreed to funding for the project. When asked what the name of his project would be the engineer replied "I will call it the Terminator".
Well, things certainly changed as the Terminators wiped out the remaining opposition and the war was ended. The Terminators were reprogrammed to work as farm hands and the people of the Empire would never have to work again.
With all the spare time the people of the Empire dedicated themselves to sporting activities and so football was born.
.....and everybody lived happily ever after.
-
It's not just "not very probable"...
Well, considering they WOULD make a breakthrough at the pass, then the pass would turn out to be a bottleneck. The bretonnian forces could be picked apart in small portions when they try to get across.
Even if they did, "we" wouldn't even need to "catch" them, since we all know that no bretonnian knight would want to run away from battle. So we'd just have to amass one large army and challenge them. Easy as that.
The southern provinces of the empire are most likely still almost as strong as they were before the Breeze of Chaos as well, since they didn't see that much of the war, if any. And you don't suppose that each and every imperial soldier was sent north when the Horde drew near, do you?
I also think the dwarfs would not just "sit it out". They are very serious about the age-old oaths that bind them and the empire together as brothers in arms (stronger, older and more encompassing agreements as some single Karak(s) might have with some bretonians). And with Bretonnia clearly being the agressor in that situation, they would not have any reason to aid them or even just "forget" about their duty, the bretonnian deed would indeed be more likely regarded as treachery, in my opinion. Then there is also the small issue that the Bretonians are considered to be friends with some tree-hugging hippies...
-
Karl Franz was then approached by a Trainee Engineer by the name of John O'Conner who said he may be able to end the war with one of the projects he was working on. Intrigued Karl Franz told him to continue. The young engineer rolled out a number of blue prints detailing work on his project. After hours of consultation Karl Franz agreed to funding for the project. When asked what the name of his project would be the engineer replied "I will call it the Terminator".
Well, things certainly changed as the Terminators wiped out the remaining opposition and the war was ended. The Terminators were reprogrammed to work as farm hands and the people of the Empire would never have to work again.
I heard that one of the terminators developed human like characteristics, calling himself andrew, and lived to about 200 years...
Trebuchets laying siege to our garrisons and castles would be destroyed pretty quickly by our cannons with superior aim.
I think we also may be forgetting the fact that Brettonians pride themselves on their honour. If we were to challange them, they would accept. Not only that, but I don't think they would consider it very honorable to invade another human nation (prove me wrong).
Sure, for an increase of land, but wiping us out I dont think would very honorable.
-
I think it would start because of some chaos tainted jester in the court of King Louencour, who plants a seed of suspicion, the jester would then arange "Border incidences" using mercenaries from tilea. These "unprovoked attacks on Bretonia would be the perfect excuse to invade.
After the initial loss of the pass the Empire would go into an elastic defence, sacrificing small bands of peasant militia, leading on the arrogant knights of Brettonia untill their lines of communication are too long.
A few tank attacks, Hired Giants and ambushes on the many forest roads would make their march tiring and difficult untill we can convince them to march all the way up to Nuln with a big banner saying: Welcome to helblaster alley!
Cut off their retreat, take the nobles prisoner then ransome them back in exchange for titles, land and damsels in their own land!
-
That's how the empire general would do it! Through wits and style!
*pelvic thrust*
:-D
But seriously, I think after the storm of chaos that the two human realms have gotten more united, and I hardly think the Brets would attack the Empire any time soon.
But it wouldn't be unlike them the thieving gits! :wink:
-
Bretonnians attack through the south they have to come over the mountain pass...where they will be bombarded by artillery and Handgun fire from our gates and keeps in the passes.
Bretonnians attack through the north where the Empire is pretty much one big forest. I really don't see cavalry being all that effective in the northern Empire. Plus we'll have help from out 'Beastmen Allies'. You know, those guys that live in our forests and raid, but would probably harrass Bretonnians that try to hide off the main road.
-
a
-
I reckon the Brets shouldn't get the Lady's blessing outside of their homeland.
The Empire is a nation at arms because of the Chaos incursion. Thousands of men have been armed to fight chaos and mercenaries have flocked to the land. In the uneasy paranoia following the war many of these armed groups will still be established, finding employ guarding towns/ trade routes etc. I don't think that the Empire is easier to attack now than it was before...
-
Well it would turn out to be a major victory for Chaos!
-
Short, Bloody and with a lot of imperial peasants getting fat of a years supply of horsemeat.. :evil:
-
@Elieress: You forgot to say we'd win. :roll:
-
That we all know was a given. How could a civilisation (if you can call it that) that spends all their time worshipping a body of water possibly hope to take our land?
Besides, they don't even know how to shoot a gun! (not that I personally do, but I have gone paintballing....)
-
I am asuming that some empire players get beaten by Brettonians some times, why are you lot so derisive of them. Poeple who under estimated their enemies generally tend to get a spanking. There are plenty of examples in histrory!
-
a
-
I am asuming that some empire players get beaten by Brettonians some times, why are you lot so derisive of them. Poeple who under estimated their enemies generally tend to get a spanking. There are plenty of examples in histrory!
pointwise in a pitched battle, brettonians do perform quite well... often better than Empire.. (mediocre general versus a mediocre general)
That is however not the case if we are talking invasion through fortified mountain passes with an army of sullen, hungry peassants and loads of horses that cannot survive on grasing alone... its not a matter of rules and pointvalues... Its a question of loyalties (Once again I need the empire smily) and fluff.
:mrgreen:
-
I too think that on a stratergy level they wouldnt win, but on a tatical level I wouldnt be so dismisive. I think that in an initial stage they could break through they have the element of suprise the southern frontier is likely not to be that heavily garrisoned. Once into the southern provinces battles would be an even affair that the brettonians should win by locally having superior forces. They would not be able to win outright, but i think they would do better than many people here think.
Do you think I am unpatriotic for not blindly beleiving in victory, but rather looking at the problem as a whole and seeing our weekness?
-
Do you think I am unpatriotic for not blindly beleiving in victory, but rather looking at the problem as a whole and seeing our weekness?
Yes.
The Empire has garrissons in the only passes through the mountains, the horses wouldn't do well there, and the cannons/helblasters/handguns would tear through whatever armor they might have on top of dem horsies.
-
Hmm... I think the whole idea is silly. First off, the Empire is a more advanced nation technologically. That doesn't mean just cannons: that means healthier people, a higher population/ land threshold, etc.
If the Bretonnians made it into the Empire, they would find their medieval supply lines dejectedly substandard. An army like the Bretonnians depends on the enemy giving them a fair fight-- that's why they win in WFB games. But the Empire wouldn't feel any moral compulsion to give it to them. I'm not suggesting that every Empire captain is a cunning mastermind, it's just a matter of a huge difference in approach to the world of warfare. The Bretonnians are tragically medieval. They're ignorant. They're in the middle ages. The organizational side of the war would be like a little kid boxing Mike Tyson. The battles would either be 2000 points of knights vs. 200 points of archers or 2000 points of knights vs. 6000 points of cannon-packed discipline. Plus, the Empire's familiarity with the land and their more advanced bureaucracy (and probably way better roads) would likely have the Empire's troops getting around way faster that the Brets, horses or no horses.
What I mean is, the Bretonnians would not have a snowflake's chance in hell of conquering the Empire, in any numbers. The Empire might have a harder time if they were simultaneously besieged by another force, like a Waagh or another big Beastmen keg party, but the Brets wouldn't end up settling down in Altdorf in any case.
Now, things could be very different if the Empire invaded Brettonia, because the home field advantage would make up for some of their dark-ages ignorance. That'd be tough, especially since the Brets could count on more help from allies if they've got the moral high ground.
-
I too think that on a stratergy level they wouldnt win, but on a tatical level I wouldnt be so dismisive. I think that in an initial stage they could break through they have the element of suprise the southern frontier is likely not to be that heavily garrisoned. Once into the southern provinces battles would be an even affair that the brettonians should win by locally having superior forces. They would not be able to win outright, but i think they would do better than many people here think.
The southern frontier? Doubtful since the might garrison at Castle Kruetzhofen is held by Feldmarshal Mattias von Clarkenhoven and Grandmaster Franz Ferdinand of the Steel Legion.
-
The southern frontier? Doubtful since the might garrison at Castle Kruetzhofen is held by Feldmarshal Mattias von Clarkenhoven and Grandmaster Franz Ferdinand of the Steel Legion.
Awesome!!
BTW, Clarkarias. I live in Atlanta and was at the Blue Jays + Braves last night. You follow baseball? It was pretty good except for us getting beaten.
-
http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&Itemid=46&func=view&id=10386&catid=2
Hah, looks like they agree with the spanking, if they did break through, it would cause some pain but eventually we would round them up and shoot them. Free horsemeat for years!
-
I agree that Bretonnian forces would Take quite a beating coming through Axe Bite Pass, but what if they land farther north by sea?
Also, Altdorf is dangerously close to the border with Bretonnia while the bulk of the troops of the Empire are spread around the borders more likely to be invaded (specifically to the north and south). Another advantage Bretonnia has is that the bulk of their troops (knights) aren't actually important to their economy, in fact, the economy would likely do better without them spending money and wasting the workforce on castles and private projects. Bretonnian supply lines should be quite adequate, with the vast majority of Bretonnia being farmland, while most of the Empire is woods (which would, in turn make Bretonnian invasion of the interior of the Empire quite difficult).
I tend to think in the initial outset of the war it would be a toss up, by if Bretonnia tried to occupy the Empire it certainly wouldn't go well for us (that's right, Bret player here)
-
The Bretonnia Navy they speak of - I have never really heard much about it. Claiming they have the 2nd best navy in the Warhammer world is a big claim, with Dark Elves with their Black Arks and with Dwarven steam ships.... Our own ships have cannons - do theirs?
Their ships may be faster, but we have much more firepower - which they are especially prohibited from taking due to their own ethics.
-
The Bretonnian fleet is crewed by devotees of Manann, not the Lady of the Lake, and have no problem with using cannon - therir navy is perhaps the most powerful of the Old World human navies (Barak Varr's Dwarfs are more advanced, Marienburg's is up there but the Empire has little in the way of a viable navy since the Wastelanders upped sticks...)
In terms of cross-mountain ambition, the best that the Bretonnians would aim for is another grab at Marienburg - which according to Knights of the Grail is what the Marquis of Couronne has in mind - but the Kingdom's ability to prosecute a war against the largest city in the Old World would be severely curtailed if Mallobaude, the Black Knight of Mousillon, makes his play for the vacant Ducal throne (as described in Barony of the Damned)
Gary
-
BTW, Clarkarias. I live in Atlanta and was at the Blue Jays + Braves last night. You follow baseball? It was pretty good except for us getting beaten.
I do follow baseball...enough anyway. Except I'm not a Jays fan but a Tigers fan. Been one ever since the days of Sparky Anderson, Mickey Tenelton, Alan Tramel and of course Cecil Fielder.
-
I honestly can't see Bretonia winning a war against the Empire.
I think the Bretonains would see the same problems we mentioned, if they attacked through the mountain passes, so what they would do is circle the mountains (below Marienburg) and drive straight for Altdorf to kill the Emperor, and make it a quick, face-saving war. Then the Bretonians would leave.
This would be the most logical way to beat the empire. Remove the head and there would be so much in fighting they could potentially defeat each faction alone (and possibly with the help of other factions).
The problem, for Bretonia, would be holding the conquered territories. i think the knights would soon find that the Empire citizens are not peasants (like in Bretonia). Its a complete different social structure, and i think this would create a basic level of resistance among the Empire citizens. The only way I could see Bretonia actually holding the Empire once it was conquered is if they honored/recognized the Empire knightly orders, and talked them into being the rulers of this new territory. Junta!!!!! :evil:
The real ace would be marienburg. I think its safe to say they would side with the country who pays the most. Since the Empire is the richer nation, i think Marienburg would side with the Empire (or even accept the payoff to stay out of it).
Because The Empire is a richer nation, any extended war of attrition favors them. The Empire would find it easier to replenish losses on the battlefield with mercenaries from Tilea (The Bretonians don't field mercenaries). Mercenaries could be used to further build their army, or even start a second front in Bretonia.
The Wood Elves wouldn't care who fights, as long as the Empire stayed out of their precious forrest (and are presented a low dwarf ratio Empire army).
Concerning the Dwarfs...I think they will be split. The older kingdom would side with the Empire, while the newer kingdoms would side with Bretonia, or stay neutral. Like someone mentioned, the dwarfs remember a debt, and if the bretonains did help to break a siege on a dwarf city, that city would march with them, and the same goes for the dwarfs who fought with Sigmar (Praise his name!). Those dwarf armies would march with the Empire, like they have since the Empire was founded.
-
Oh man, I can't believe I didn't get in on this argument earlier.
I honestly can't see Bretonia winning a war against the Empire.
I can't see Brettonia waging a war against the Empire, let alone winning it. It would be suicidal for a number of reasons:
1) Population and industry alone are enough to make it numerically impossible for the Brettonians to maintain a prolonged invasion of the Empire. Even if they achieved initial surprise, they would quickly run low on knights. They are not disposable nor replaceable in the amount of time it would require to hold an even modest amount of worthwhile Empire territory.
2) Along the lines of the first argument: supply lines, supply lines, supply lines. There is no way the Brettonians could establish and maintain the adequate supply lines into the Empire they would need to sustain operations. Even brief forays against their supply lines, which would be standard, would disrupt them irrepairably. This is based on the limited lines of communications into the Empire from Brettonia. An army that relies on its cav so heavily is handicapped through the passes which they would need to control.
3) Marienburg and the Dwarfs are inconsequential. Neither would commit in numbers to tip the scales for either side. Taking a side to commit them that deeply would damage trade that would be impossible to overcome, regardless of which side they chose.
4) The most important reason: The Empire is an irreplaceable barrier between the hordes of Chaos, the greenskins and whoever that weakening them more after the SoC would be politically ridiculous for Brettonia to want to wage this war.
-
I dunno if current fluff still stands, but I remember in older editions and Man O War included, Bretonnia has one of the strongest navies. If it was a drawn out campaign, I'm sure that could be put to use. The navy isn't fought with honorable knights, so any dirty tactics can be employed by them.
-
The truth is if you have ever played ManOWar the Empire has the most powerful navy in game terms. I'm not speaking in fluff terms, just having played a lot of games of Man O War. That was until the expansions came out and somehow the Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs would rule the seas! :lol:
-
I think people are possibly over-estimating the "loyalty" of the people of the Empire to their nobility. They are still "commoners" not "citizens". I don't see that the Empire has that strong sense of nationhood - they don't even have a common God!
It's entirely possible that a section of the Empire nobility would side with the Brettonians, because they would see it as being to their own personal advantage to be senoir nobility in a vassal state, rather than minor nobility in an independent state. As long as the taxes don't become too onerous and they don't interfere with religion too much I don't see that the Empire commoners would do much to stand against this.
Indeed, one possible start for such a war, in the current situation, would be the claim that the Empire rulers were Chaos-tainted, turning such a war into a crusade which might gain support for Brettonia amongst the more religious of the Empire's commoners and Knight Templars.
I also think that the unifying position of Karl Franz is greatly weakened at this time, through his symbolic submission to Valten [by giving him Ghal Maraz], who subsequently died. He was further weakened by the southern provinces being unwilling to fully commit to the defence of the northern provinces. Any attack by Brettonia could easily pick off the armies of the provinces piecemeal, as they currently seem unwilling to stand together in common defence.
So - not the foregone conclusion some people have painted it as.
-
One problem that Brettonians would face that has yet to be mentioned is the possibility of revolution back home. The peasents arent as happy as in other edditions and they could quiet possibly revolt while their masters where off playing in the Empire. With inserection at home and Knights fighting and dieing to imperial cannons then Brettonia might be a very different place.
-
What might be fun is to do another Ostermark-style campaign with Empire versus Bretonnians. I have a bad feeling that we would be in trouble on the battlefield.
-
What might be fun is to do another Ostermark-style campaign with Empire versus Bretonnians. I have a bad feeling that we would be in trouble on the battlefield.
That depends on the imminent new Empire book...
I'm sure some past Empire-Brettonian conflicts are mentioned in the army books, I can't remember off the top of my head how enigmatic the references are, though.
A one-on-one campaign Empire vs Brettonia [or Skaven? or Beastmen?] might be more manageable than the all-against-all campaigns favoured by GW.
-
depends on the imminent new Empire book...
Yes the Clockwork Knights will save the day! Yay for Technology!
-Grutch
-
We may do it locally with Bigrin being the Bret General and me acting on behalf of the beloved Empire. It would be a lot of fun.
-
We could also get Bretonnia.org to join us in the campaign
-
Around here we tried something similar, but a bit more complicated than risk using the warhammer map. It worked quite well (I played Empire). Suffice to say my superior supply lines and better incentives to fight. let me knock brettonians out, and I had them retreating to their castles in 7 years.
Oh, Skaven won the overall world dominance, controlling everything between estalia and nehekhara.
The brettonian navy is not that tough- let us look at how their wor- perhaps they are crewed by people with brains.. i.e. not brettonians :wink: but the Empire has the ability to attack their undefended south due to our big influence in estalia, and friendliness with pirates (can you see brettonians liking pirates?).
I would suspect the sartosans would side with us for the right price, as would the tileans.
We do have an almost common God- sigmar. Note the romans didn't need a common good to conquer the world, nor did persians or greeks.
I doubt many dwarves would side with brettonia.
The brettonians would not offer nobles a chance to side with them- they are too blinded with their silly rules. A noble in bbrettonia has to fight for his lord and raise men. That needs a lot of money. An empire noble doesn't need to do that- he can get a lot richer by not paying for peasants and knights.
In addition, the empire does have citizens. There are not peasants or commoners- we are not feudal. The only way someone pays taxes is to the state or for rent. Most enerprises are privatley owned and the flexability of a free market ensures the Empire's resources are, on the whole, better managed.
You overestimate your own peasants misfratz. At least ours are free and have the option of doing what they want- they may have to address a noble as sir, but they don't have to serve him. Note this, why would an empire person want to side with brettonia? He gets controlled. He must be subservient. He can't do what he wants. However bad things are here, being in brettonia is much worse.
-
You overestimate your own peasants misfratz. At least ours are free and have the option of doing what they want- they may have to address a noble as sir, but they don't have to serve him.
But theirs cost less points and come better equiped as a standard. Forget the 'worse stats' because they are all soft stats like WS. I'd probably be playing a Bretonnia Peasent Horde if it weren't for the brilliant detachment rules and my love of puffy shirts (in game terms)
*edit* I better mention leadership before someone posts it. I think adding 1-2 unit of knights makes the Bretonnian Peasentry have a HIGHER leadership than Imperial Infantry so I didn't count that above. *edit*
-
I think as a whole, its pretty much agreed upon that Empire will win. I think another factor swinging in favor of Empire is simply due to the fact that Empire is willing to hire out mercs too.
-
Yeah-- I can see no possible way that a premodern technological society would welcome the dark ages and total peonhood under any circumstances.
There is no way that the average Imperial citizen thinks of Bretonnia as anything better than totally backwards, socially-- that isn't to say he wouldn't respect their battlefield courage, etc, but they are comparative simpletons in every way.
Would YOU welcome somebody from the 1700s to rule over you, in any circumstance? If your answer is "yes", then you are possibly a little under-educated about how much social progress has come about in the last 300 years. That, or you've got a balooned image of the greatness of some individual you might be thinking of in specific.
Also, if anything Valten's lack of comment on the validity of the Emperor's throne solidified the Empire's loyalty to him in a way that has never been seen before in the Empire. Is morale low after Valten's death? People miss him, yeah, but by and large they think he just strode off again. Only this time the living Sigmar has seen the Empire as it is and not condemned it!
-
So - not the foregone conclusion some people have painted it as.
Yes, I'm afraid it is. For the reasons that have been mentioned, the war would be over before it started. No one is questioning the skill or courage of the Brettonian knights or the toadyness of their peasants, but numbers and industry and decent skill among the rank and file will see the Empire through. And yes, there is more national unity in the Empire than some people here think. It would be the Brettonian peasants that have to gain by turncoatery, not the Imperial "commoners" (as someone put it).
We all know that on the tabletop, things would be different. But tactics are just one aspect of a war. If you were to do a campaign with a realistic supply scenario, the Empire wouldn't need to win any engagements tactically but could still win the war. That's the way of war.
-
Racticas, instead of another "League" we can just do a Bret versus Empire campaign. That way it won't matter who shows up to play. You have some Brets, Carl has some, I have some, and Brad has some. That should be plenty of Brets for folks to borrow or play.
Carl and I have enough Empire for the rest of the folks. We can have the Dwarf players (if they chose) play for either side. Jeremy's Dogs of War and DJ's Ogres can play on the Empire side as mercenaries. Perhaps Allen's Wood Elves can side with the Brets.
-
Sounds cool! As you know, I've got both Empire and Brets (and believe it or not, I'm painting up my Empire very quickly down here!).
But I'm afraid if I keep pushing WHFB, you'll never forgive me for drawing the gang away from FoW... and after you spent all your gold pieces on it.
Why don't you teach me to play FoW, and we can do that for a while before any campaigning? Who knows-- maybe I won't suck as bad at Flames of War as I fo at Warhammer?
-
Oh I was going to make this a much more casual campaign. Not one that folks must attend to play. I just wanted it to be a fun way to keep playing some games. The theme of this thread gives me some good ideas. It would be an episodic campaign. Heck it may just be with three or four of us.
-
On the tabletop, with no restrictions , straight from the rulebook and the army books, it would be a massacre to the Bretonnians.
There is no answer to the Flying Circus in the Empire book.
In 7th edition the new crossfire rule (read as old 40K rule) will throw even more favour onto the already laden with gifts Bretonnian list.
In fluff terms the far more modernised Empire would crush the feudal based Bretonnian economy with superior production and advanced technologies like the 20th century tank :-D.
-
Not just in fluff terms, in REAL terms. Warhammer tabletop battles aren't very real, you know.
Most of the battles would be like a 2000pt empire army against a 1000pt bret army. Oh, and the empire would probably have ambushed them.
-
Bretonnia might have a chance if they play their cards right and they recieve some help from lady Luck.
The empire has suffered during the storm of chaos, much of it's armed forced are still fighting up North against the remains of the Chaos/Skaven/marauder armies. Bretonnia didn't suffer as much as the Empire, they recruited a vast army that is still very much battleready.
If the Bretonnians stayed in the South-West raiding the countryside and ignoring the better defended places (like the Germans in Russia during WWII)
they would slowly weaken some of the still intact regions. Of course the Empire would crush the Brets eventually due to greater numbers and better production facilities.
Sooooo. The Brets would have to make a deal with the Von Carsteins. They have a huge army ready to invade and the only reason they haven't already is because of the Grand Theoginist. (according to SoC fluff)
The best plan would be: a) kill the Grand Theogonist b) let the vampires attack the center of the Empire c) concentrate on the South-West, and pressuring Marienburg to stay out of the conflict d) hope that with all the religious unrest following Valtens death the Empire will break into smaller pieces.
Bah, it's a long shot, but it could work. :wink:
P.
-
Sooooo. The Brets would have to make a deal with the Von Carsteins. They have a huge army ready to invade and the only reason they haven't already is because of the Grand Theoginist. (according to SoC fluff)
Making a deal with those beasts of the night? Is that the honorable thing to do? Surely if anyone is going to kill the Empire people honorably it would be the Bretonnians. Getting Evil to do Bretonnians dirty work I think would be completely against Bretonnian ideals.
and pressuring Marienburg to stay out of the conflict
Marienburg would enter the conflict because not to would be economically crippling. The amount of trade that would suffer because of the Empire being destroyed would weaken Marienburg significantly. No amount of pressure from the Bretonnians would keep Marienburg from looking after its best interests.... Especially if it knows that siding with the Empire will give a very good chance to restoring the balance....
-
Not just in fluff terms, in REAL terms. Warhammer tabletop battles aren't very real, you know.
Most of the battles would be like a 2000pt empire army against a 1000pt bret army. Oh, and the empire would probably have ambushed them.
and I'm sure the ambush would go something like...
Captain: "Sargent!, what are those Bretonian's doing?"
Sargent: "Still praying sir"
Captain: "Oh. Well, give orders to fire the cannon. Some people around here have schedules""
Sargent: "Yes Sir."
-
There is no answer to the Flying Circus in the Empire book.
Magic heavy (Lore beasts?) with the Orb of Thunder?
-
There is no answer to the Flying Circus in the Empire book.
Magic heavy (Lore beasts?) with the Orb of Thunder?
In the days of the old skool Wood Elves, I used to take three level two mages, one had the Orb of Thunder. Because such lists depend on flying so much that leaves the regular magic to do well in the game. The secret then would be to carefully pick your lores and hope you do well in casting. If the other two magic items are the Rod of Power and two dispel scrolls, you could do well against the Brets with magic. Just remember their stupid magic users all have magic resistance. :(
-
Sooooo. The Brets would have to make a deal with the Von Carsteins. They have a huge army ready to invade and the only reason they haven't already is because of the Grand Theoginist. (according to SoC fluff)
Making a deal with those beasts of the night? Is that the honorable thing to do? Surely if anyone is going to kill the Empire people honorably it would be the Bretonnians. Getting Evil to do Bretonnians dirty work I think would be completely against Bretonnian ideals.
and pressuring Marienburg to stay out of the conflict
Marienburg would enter the conflict because not to would be economically crippling. The amount of trade that would suffer because of the Empire being destroyed would weaken Marienburg significantly. No amount of pressure from the Bretonnians would keep Marienburg from looking after its best interests.... Especially if it knows that siding with the Empire will give a very good chance to restoring the balance....
Course Marienburg would join the war. Against us. Why wouldnt they want to settle centuries of unease with an old fashioned land grab. With their armies of mercenaries, they could probably take nordland and parts of middenheim before the empire was aware of it. Not the Bretonnia would ever stoop so low as to deal with mercenaries, but the chance of stealing the eastern empire is too big a target to ignore....
In a war with bretonnia, i think it would stalemate with maienburg taking parts (if not all) of nordland and middenland, bretonnia taking wissenland and reikland, and empire re-drawing its borders at the reik, and heavily fortifying altdork and nuln, which would safeguard ther position. And if the border princes join in (most of them ARE disgraced bret knights, so may just join out of loyalties, or just plain greed). And the empire copuld do little to stop this with their remaining armies, for half would be stationed in the north to guard against chaos, and the others would need to guard the west aginst undead and choas there, so not enough would be left to repel the invaders. Enough to stop them, but not to kick them out. However, the brets would in turn be defeated by our culture, for we are not feudal peasants to be crushed, and nor would the knights want the grim land to the north, so no decisive blow would be dealt, soem knights would bore of this 'barbarian' culture, and a peasnats revolt would weaken the brets enough to never think of invasion again. But they could probably keep the south, and marienburg may even be able to hold on to parts of nordland if the brets do well enough.
Not that im at all doubting that wed win eventually - it just may involve breeding with the brets until we become influential enough to withdraw to their green and pleasant land, and leave them with the knowledge that their foolish attack has allowed our dream of freedom and democracy to filter to the serfs in bretonnia, and to cause revolts all over the country. Muahahahahahaha!
-
You overestimate your own peasants misfratz.
|Eh?!? Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me a Brettonian! I've been a proud Empire general since UKWD 153, I'll have you know, and have never commanded the foppish Knights of Brettonia. Now that we've got that sorted...
Empire commoners are definitely not citizens - the Empire is yet to have a Bourgeois revolution such as occured in England in 1660's, US in 1776 or France in 1789. It is true that the Burgomeisters have an increasing amount of power, but this has not expressed itself in political control and stands in contradiction to the prevailing power structures.
The Emperor is elected mainly by the Counts of the provinces - ie by the feudal nobility. Indeed, despite the election being nominally "open", it has passed down the generations of the Reikland Princes for several generations. Empire generals would do well not to overestimate the power at their disposal.
-
In a war with bretonnia, i think it would stalemate with maienburg taking parts (if not all) of nordland and middenland, bretonnia taking wissenland and reikland, and empire re-drawing its borders at the reik
Madness. This is among the least likely outcomes for this scenario.
I still don't see where people are getting this power projection for Brettonia, and Marienburg in particular. There is no way either Brettonia or Marienburg would be able to take and hold that much territory in the Empire. It is logistically impossible, among other impossibilities combining to make it... well, impossible.
Course Marienburg would join the war. Against us. Why wouldn't they want to settle centuries of unease with an old fashioned land grab. With their armies of mercenaries, they could probably take nordland and parts of middenheim before the empire was aware of it
Even if they drained their coffers to raise such an army, who would occupy the newly acquired land? Mercenaries? Not likely. Mercenaries are not very useful as an occupational force for a number of reasons, cost not being the least of which. Even if they did raise a force like that, who would be left to defend the city itself? A back door assault by the navy or perhaps our own mercenaries would force them to recall their army to defend their own territory.
All of this would take a tremendous amount of coordination, not only between Marienburg and Brettonia, but Marienburg and the mercenaries. This would be impossible to keep a secret from the Empire's own agents. That's the price you pay when you deal with people who fight (or do anything, really) for money. That being said, Marienburg wouldn't have the drop on the Empire you have suggested and would be able to be dealt with.
And if the border princes join in (most of them ARE disgraced bret knights, so may just join out of loyalties, or just plain greed).
It is doubtful they could put aside their petty squabbling long enough to coordinate any attack on the Empire that would be noteworthy. As a precedent, they haven't done it yet and it is unlikely they would if they didn't take advantage of the SoC (a much larger threat than Brettonia).
Bretonnia didn't suffer as much as the Empire, they recruited a vast army that is still very much battleready
Battleready? Maybe. Battleworthy? The bulk of troops at this stage would be levies. Untested and untried troops with little or no training invading and holding land in a country that is still up in arms and has a battle-hardened army with technological superiority. They don't have the knights in the numbers they would need to stiffen their force adequately.
If the Bretonnians stayed in the South-West raiding the countryside and ignoring the better defended places (like the Germans in Russia during WWII) they would slowly weaken some of the still intact regions.
Shock action and suprise would be their only hope, they wouldn't have the time or the resources to "slowly weaken" the intact regions, and it wouldn't do them any good. If you can't take and hold the larger cities or more heavily defend locations, then there really isn't much point in invading, is there?
-
Besides, Marienburg is too worried about the Marquis of Couronne having a go at conquest from across the Marches...
...and when Mallobaude, the Black Knight, makes a play for the ducal throne of Mousillon, Bretonnia will have its hands full!
Gary
-
well if you have gone on the bretonnian site latly they talk of sufficating us by taking are supply routes and saying we would have one supply route after they took all of ours which would be going through the silk road or trading with chaos...come on who wouldnt trade with chaos their sooo cute and their the nicess people you'll ever meet, and the idea of a Empire man turning to bretonnia is unlikly because who would do that because then their lands would endangered by the surrounding empire and some of those smart people in their lands would turn against them and also they wouldnt be able to use their black powder, do not forget are steam tanks would be in the south which would hopefully do good and not blow itself up and the ideas of wood elves helping is foolish for even if they did join the war they would end up fighting the beastmen and high elves would take too long to get there and then travel all the way to where the war is taking place, and darwes would prob fight each other on who side to fight on,drink ale,drink more ale,get drunk and fight each other and then drink more ale or do nothing and f they where attacking us from the south why not hire some men and attack from the north causing disturbance in their lands and making them retreat to end it. There are so many other reason why this wouldnt happen or how each side would win nothing or lead to ours and their dooms really do you think any of our emperors are that stupid and if they would i think SIGMAR would have sent them some werid and odd vison of what would happen if they did and then 3 ghost would visit.....maybe bretonnians are stupid enough to do such a thing to attack us but even when they did take are land are trusted ally the chaos horde would surly avenge us after and kill them all...hurray for chaos....
-
Wow. I just looked at that post and didn't even bother to read it.
If this is our Bretonnian competition then we can rest easy, men of the Empire.
-
I pounded through it, Racticas, it was tough...
But I actually did find something to comment on, the first sentence:
if you have gone on the bretonnian site latly they talk of sufficating us by taking are supply routes and saying we would have one supply route after they took all of ours
Suffocate us by taking our supply routes? This must be some kind of a joke. The goons at the Bretonnian site clearly are so drunk on their broken knights that they lose track of reality.
How do they intend to take and hold our supply routes? And exactly which supply routes would they hold that would "suffocate" the Empire? We don't import food or lumber. In fact, the necessities are all good within the Empire. They might cut off some luxuries, hardly a "suffocating" action. And do they honestly think the dwarfs would let them cut off dwarf trade with the Empire? We are their best customers, and they are ours. speaking of dwarfs, the Bretonnians are not in a geographical postition to cut us off from Barak Varr, and through there we could trade with virtually anyone. What are they going to do, blockade Barrak Varr? I would like to see that.
No, cutting off supply routes is ridiculous.
Next flimsy argument, please. This is fun.
-
Next flimsy argument, please. This is fun.
Well... No-one has seriously addressed my point that the Emperor is currently politically weak - unable to force the southern provinces to fully commit to the defence of Middenland in the Storm of Chaos and handing his powerful magical hammer over to a supposed reincarnation of Sigmar who was unable to defeat Archaon.
It seems to me that the Empire is poised for a period of political instability and disunity the like of which it hasn't seen since before Magnus the Pious.
By contrast, the Brettonian King seems to be in charge of a particularly united Brettonian nobility.
-
wasn't the relief force sent by the empire mostly made up of southern province troops??
and i do believe that Karl Franz is a well respected leader amongst the other elector counts
-
How do they intend to take and hold our supply routes?
A just because I enjoy the argument: The strength of the Empire is trade. Food is not grown and freely distributed, forests are not clear-cut to make affordable housing for all, things cost money and cutting off Marienburg would certainly have an effect on trade in the north.
Of course, nothing would mobilize the merchant class more quickly than restricted trade routes. Political pressure would surely ensue. You want to get someones attention? Steal their money.
That doesn't mean that the south would feel the effects, but a clever government could make sure that they do, if for no other reason than power through forced involvement.
Wow. I just looked at that post and didn't even bother to read it.
I did. hamster_of_doom is a member here. He's pointing out how silly the Bretonnian argument is and how unlikely it is to happen. Same thing Big Time said, just fewer sentences and more words.
-
wasn't the relief force sent by the empire mostly made up of southern province troops??
Well I guess it obviously wasn't made up of northern province troops, but nevertheless Karl Franz had difficulty putting it together - otherwise it wouldn't have been a "relief force" it would have been part of the defence.
Compare and contrast:
Magnus the Pious - Assembles an army so large he has to split it into two! On the basis of what? A great military leader? Er.. no. Emperor of the Empire? Er... no again. All on the basis of his oratorical skills, apparently...
Karl Franz - Long predicted invasion from the north, which the Grand Theogenist bravely trys to deal with pre-emptively. This should see the undisputed Emperor of the Empire at the head of a vast army to meet the Chaos Hordes head on, right? No?!? Instead our Karl is reduced to cajoling his southern Counts into giving him troops for a half-assed "relief force", whilst the defence of Middenheim is left to the northern provinces.
Karl Franz is a dead duck. He's an Emperor who no longer commands the loyalty of his electors, because when he says "Jump!", they say "Er, sorry, sir, but I'd rather not, dodgy knee, a bit of an old war wound you know, good chap..."
-
Yet he managed to hold middenheim and beat off Chaos.
Handing Valten the hammer could be a smart political test- he could claim that he was testing if Valten reallywas the reincarnation of sigmar.
I think we should forget stuff to do with SoC, because frankly the fluff is a load of...
If Electors don't want Karl Franz in, then they just have a vote (he will win, due to church votes) and most probably todbringer will come second.
Luckily for us, the counts aren't the opportunistic idiots that caused the three emperors fiasco, it is more in their interest to stay united as it is.
About what the brettonians say,
Think what kind of players they are, and what we are.
We have analysed this carefully, conceding that they may make an initial penetrating thrust before being pushed back out again. Not just considering troops, but morale, supplies and political pressures.
Thats the kind of people we are.
Bretonians probably thought 'we've got the lance formation, and we normally win 2000pt battles, therefore we will win a war.'
-
The strength of the Empire is trade.
things cost money and cutting off Marienburg would certainly have an effect on trade in the north.
No question. Marienburg is one source of trade, an important one but we could weather a temporary embargo with them. My main point with that was they would be unable to hold the trade routes indefinitly. Cutting Marienburg off would make this even more difficult for them. Do you think Marienburg would sit idley by and let that happen? I think it would be safe to say they rely on the Empire for trade more than the Empire relies on them. As you mentioned, it is a question of money. Bretonnia cutting off that large a source of funds from Marienburg would actually benefit the Empire.
That doesn't mean that the south would feel the effects, but a clever government could make sure that they do, if for no other reason than power through forced involvement.
The government wouldn't have to do much for every province to feel the pressure. Cutting off large trade sources would ripple through the market economy across the Empire, a driving factor that would make this irrelevant:
No-one has seriously addressed my point that the Emperor is currently politically weak - unable to force the southern provinces to fully commit to the defence of Middenland in the Storm of Chaos
The Emperor is not really much of a factor here, as is comparing a Bretonnian invasion with a Chaos incursion. Different political factors all together. One might argue that it should be easier to unite the country in defense during a Chaos incursion, but not necessarily. I won't get into the "why" right now, it is lunch time.
and handing his powerful magical hammer over to a supposed reincarnation of Sigmar who was unable to defeat Archaon.
Completely irrelevant. The hammer is better wielded by Valten anyway, so why not let him use it. The Emperor still pimps a RuneFang. He can't dual-wield them and he isn't the fighter Valten is. Valten was a natural choice. Sure, he couldn't beat Archaon, but hindsight is 20/20. Either way, I don't see the political instability you are suggesting, in fact if the Emperor plays the rebuilding phase intelligently we could see a very stable period in Empire politics. It remains to be seen.
but nevertheless Karl Franz had difficulty putting it together - otherwise it wouldn't have been a "relief force" it would have been part of the defence.
Not true. Each Elector is still responsible for the defense of his (or her, Talabheim :wink:) province or city-state, even in a time of national need. No one would leave themselves undefended at home to defend another, that's the hard truth. They came when it was absolutely neede, but even then I doubt the stripped out their own defense overly much.
I gotta go to chow, hopefully I'll get back to this later.
-
No question. Marienburg is one source of trade, an important one but we could weather a temporary embargo with them. My main point with that was they would be unable to hold the trade routes indefinitely. Cutting Marienburg off would make this even more difficult for them. Do you think Marienburg would sit idly by and let that happen?
I don't believe that Bretonnia could hold the route indefinitely either. I do believe that they could hold it long enough to choke out trade, damage the economy in the north and isolate Marienburg to the point that taking the city would be doable for them. I'm also of the opinion that this could create enough of a distraction in the Empire that a major incursion could be successful, from a different direction.
Now, a few points of clarification. This would have to be a committed effort by all of Bretonnia, not some upstart knight with a map. They would have to really want Marienburg. And success would only be measured in the bargaining power Bretonnia would gain when it came time for them to sign a treaty. If they could manage to hold onto portions of the Empire for, say, ten years before being defeated, I could see those lands becoming negotiating points come treaty time.
Basically, I could see a scenario where a war with Bretonnia could favor them in terms of land grabbing, however, I don't see any of this as being in their best interest. Based upon the latest fluff, they appear to lack the infrastructure it would take to support such a wide-scale land grab. They don't seem to be in a position to support a foreign war without the home front suffering greatly. Unless this was about some personal issue with their king, I don't see Bretonnia wanting to pick a fight with the Empire.
-
I don't really see a Brettionian army operating on a deeper strategic thinking really than charge! Any suggestion that an army of Knights is going to be content to sit around defending a patch of land they conqured does really seem in the knights ethos. It would seem to me that such an army would be more about seeking out an enemy army and destroying it than carefull planning, about holding certain points and blocking suppy routes. Sure if they sought battle and destroyed any major imperial force sent against them then their isnt much that we could actively do to remove them, but neither are they likely just to sit there with there new found gains. And rash actions in inapropriate situations, like stroming well fortified places, splitting up into small plundering parties, would be their undoing.
-
Ha! The French will never take 1 inch of our land. But Id give credit to them, blocking our trade would work in a siege. And if we werent in our forts and castles, they can easily triumph over us in open country, both with there superior army, and the peasants can easily fill in the numbers they lack to hold that much ground, so I say the Bretts could take over the Empire. But not without one crap of a fight down to the last Halberdier!
..............While my guitar..... gently weeeps................. still my guitar......gently weeps........
But hey thats a suprise pinkasorous. You have my quote.
-
Ha! The French will never take 1 inch of our land.
I take it your German then???
That is what the Empire fluff is based on. :-D
-
Or British. Or Swiss. Or Spanish. Or Italian. Or Russian. The French got around quite a bit when it camr to stealing land.
Seriously, if you guys collectively were to defend against bretonnia, you would get nailed to the walls, and repeatedly prodded by lances. You SEVERELY underestimate bretonnia's capabilties and assume a doddery old halberdier could hold our keeps for several years whilst they futiley assault our walls with lances. In the event of war, hordes of peasants and knights would swarm into the south empire, and through dint of the fact that the southern armies are in the north, the northern armies are dead or in the north, and the dwarves dont like to get involved with domestic disputes, they could gain some serious ground and reach the reik with relative ease.
Of course we would respond by moving our armies south, but this would leave the armies guarding against chaos too weak, so just the southern provinces would return. And a few southern provinces, already weakened, against the bretonnian war machine would only go one way. Stalemate. Our only advantage is press ganging willing militia, but we all know the futility of two hand weapons against knights.
And all the while, bret's 'allies' would help them. Not willingly of course. Mercenaries in Marienburg, whether under command by the burgomeisters or not would start pillaging nordland for greed, revenge or just plain boredom. The border princes would take this historic oppurtunity for a land grab, and pillage parts of averland and stirland, further distracting from our abilty to cope. For every band of peasants that rightly revolt against the bretonnians ideals, another will turn to banditry, and further our woes (and theirs incidently, but thats another point). Even the dead may came to the party, which ends badly for all concerned, and may put an end to our silly war as they unite gainst a common foe. The worst (or best depending on your view) thing that could happen would be for chaos to invade, for no one is stupid enough to squabble amonmgst ourselves whilst barbarians invade in the north.
The again, no one is stupid enough to invade the empire, so the entire argument is academic. If Archaon's Chosen Cheese couldnt do it, what makes you think a load of dudes on ponies can?
-
i dont believe that either marienburg nor the border princes would side against the empire, seeing the empires involvement (and military support for that matter) aiding/ keeping up economy these places.
another thing which might come to play is the dangerous mountain passes, which are constantly raided by skaven, greenskins and in some hostile cases even dwarfs. This would surely break/damage any supply line the bretts would build. seeing that (almost) all the knights would be in the front fighting, the supply lines would be guarded by only men at arms at the most. (which would be any greenskins dream fighting one on one with an army of even "smaller" men)
One thing im not entirely familiar with, how many knights are there??
as a knight is an outstanding class amongst brettonian society. I'd even
dare to say that a long lasting incursion in the empire costs them too many knights which cant be replaced easily (even if our armies would be crushed several times, the knights would bear the brunt of our missilefire over and over again....)
-
Well, I just got back two days ago from vacation, drinking and crisping myself on the beaches of Connecticut and Rhode Island, and as I sober up and my skin rapidly returns to its natural ghoulish white I have slowly read this thread and have noticed some key errors which are repeated over and over here:
1)Bretonnia could/couldn't cut off our supply lines:
Either way you slice it this is nonsense. Medieval warfare didn't deal in supply lines. There was a reason why Medievals thought in terms of campaign seasons and that is because they plundered and foraged and needed to know when they could at least potentially count on there being the necessary raw materials. True, during the Crusades supply lines were often involved, but this was an exception, and for two reason:
a)They had sea access
b)They were in a desert and foraging was not a certain way to get supplies.
Even here, the Crusaders did not always have access to Italian shipping, and here they usually made do.
2)Bretonnia could/couldn't hold land
Vernichtungsgedanke, blitzkrieg, total war, all of these are primarily modern concepts. Medievals were not concerned with holding land. They were concerned with defeating armies. Once they defeated whatever armies were in the region, they then moved to fortify or build castles and then hunkered in for the next attack.
This would usually be at least months, waiting for the next campaign season, and could often take years when we look at political considerations. In any case, the land grabs that many of you are referring to have nothing to do with Medieval warfare.
Land grabs have everything to do with modern warfare where mechanized units and capitalist/commodities cultures are involved, but they have virtually nothing to do with Medieval warfare. Land might be the primary objective for political/economic/psychological/religious reasons, but only on rare occassions did holding land matter for military reasons, and here it would inevitably be for strategic reasons, and usually this would be decided before the battle if possible.
We simply have more men than the Bretonnians because we are a pre-modern, capitalist, bourgouis society with a "Whig-myth" understanding of liberty, whereas as they are Medieval and feudalistic
Now, if someone could cite fluff that Bretonnia was definitely smaller in terms of population then I would give you that part of this argument; however, without a direct fluff reference we cannot know that Bretonnia is necessarily smaller. Even with significantly higher infant mortality and a lower lifespan, pre-industrial nations are quite capable of maintaining adequate birth-rates and dynamic population growth.
Even the "Whig" history that most of you seem to subscribe to does not indicate that the Bretonnian peasant would not fight with vigour for his Lord. Although I do not subscribe to "Tory" histories of deference and ancien regime and more than I do to "Whig" liberal narratives of liberty and progress, nevertheless, conservative/reactionary historians such as J.C.D. Clark, Lord Elton, Peter Nockles and Gertrude Himmelfarb have shown how maliable the older formulations of Monarchy/Church/Parliament could be.
Jingoism knows no bounds and even today's modern peasant will fight unquestioningly for his/her master merely in the name of patriotism or a flag. Imagine the faith of the Medieval then?
In summary, then, some of you have argued that the "table top" experience of Warhammer is not a good indicator of who would win a war if these two nations fought one another. Those of you who have argued so have set forth a number of arguments which relate both to the "real warfare" and to the imaginary "Warhammer world". I bring up my insights not to argue that one side would or could defeat the other, but to suggest that real-life examples are not germaine here, and that Game mechanics should be primary. Even fluff should only be applied to when it is clear cut, as "real-life" is often difficult to apply and certainly requires a much, much, more sophisticated analysis than even I have given here.
-
O contrair! Mr. Carlo, yes they can cut off supply lines. They could put us under siege, the food cant come from the outside farms, and the inside couldnt possibly feed evryone. So that is what I mean. Yea, I figured borders didnt count for much.
-
Well, to address some of Carlo's points.
Yes, supply lines might not be involved. This would (probably) mean that the brettonians would make large incursions, but quickly become isolated, as their spearheads would move and defeat armies, leaving behind deserted land, much like an orc invasion. But, they would eventually be worn down, and if we assume the brettonians act in the feudal manner Carlo is suggesting, they would not be likely to be extremely cautious, making ambush easy.
We are a capitalist community, so commodities matter to us.
If I may I would compare the type of warfare the empire practises as similar to the English civil war. This is when land and location started to become important, and people focused on moving location, not defeating armies.
here, Charles' mistake was to act like a feudal lord, and this cost him, as though his victories were good, defeating an army isn't enough.
We can't rely on game mechanics because they do not work. If we were to fight a war with brettonia using tabletops we would undoubtedly lose to the million lances of doom.
To use game mechanics I would believe it to be a bit more warmaster style, and this is where brettonia slips a bit.
If Carlo is right, he is in fact suggesting that bretonnia could be defeated by guerilla warfare and raids, as they are only concerned with defeating armies.
-
I think that we are looking over something, because the culture of Brettonia is located in the Medieval time and the Empire is located in the time of Holy Roman Empire. And at these times there where the wars different. In the medieval time the army had to look after themself, so they took from the land(farms, villages, ...). But later they the army where sometimes so huge that they need somekind of supply, because the land could not afford it anymore. Because of this the supply lines where created, the made carvans to supply there army's. Look to Napoleon in Russia, he lost because his men froze to dead or dead because there wasn't enough food to supply his army.
-
Seriously, if you guys collectively were to defend against bretonnia, you would get nailed to the walls, and repeatedly prodded by lances. You SEVERELY underestimate bretonnia's capabilties and assume a doddery old halberdier could hold our keeps for several years whilst they futiley assault our walls with lances.
Ugh. I hope you are joking with this post, your arguments are as lice ridden as the Bretonnians you are defending.
Either way you slice it this is nonsense. Medieval warfare didn't deal in supply lines.
Foolishness, Chaimo. Supply lines include lines of communication and reinforcements. Please tell me how the Brets would maintain a protracted invasion on the Empire without either.
Medievals were not concerned with holding land. They were concerned with defeating armies. Once they defeated whatever armies were in the region, they then moved to fortify or build castles and then hunkered in for the next attack.
They are still holding land here, you have contradicted your own flimsy argument. The only excuse I can think of for this ill-expressed argument is you are caught up in thinking of holding land in modern military terms. If the Bretonnians can't hold and consolidate the land they are invading, what would be the point of the invasion?
Even the "Whig" history that most of you seem to subscribe to does not indicate that the Bretonnian peasant would not fight with vigour for his Lord. Although I do not subscribe to "Tory" histories of deference and ancien regime and more than I do to "Whig" liberal narratives of liberty and progress, nevertheless, conservative/reactionary historians such as J.C.D. Clark, Lord Elton, Peter Nockles and Gertrude Himmelfarb have shown how maliable the older formulations of Monarchy/Church/Parliament could be.
Hahaha, you sound like a grad student. Stay focused, though, you are getting sidetracked and thinking far too deeply about a fantasy table-top wargaming world.
In summary, then, some of you have argued that the "table top" experience of Warhammer is not a good indicator of who would win a war if these two nations fought one another. Those of you who have argued so have set forth a number of arguments which relate both to the "real warfare" and to the imaginary "Warhammer world". I bring up my insights not to argue that one side would or could defeat the other, but to suggest that real-life examples are not germaine here, and that Game mechanics should be primary. Even fluff should only be applied to when it is clear cut, as "real-life" is often difficult to apply and certainly requires a much, much, more sophisticated analysis than even I have given here.
I agree that real-life examples are not germaine to this argument, for the most part. I disagree, however, that "Game mechanics" should be primary and fluff should only be applied when it is clear cut.
This argument, by itsvery nature, is extremely hypothetical. But that's the beauty of a forum like this. This isn't a study of of history or politics, it's an argument about which fantasy army would win in a war. The "real life" examples are useful as a guide, but nothing more.
Anyway, Chaimo, I'm not trying to be an ass or insult anyone. This argument is fun for me and should only be regarded as fun. I really mean no offense.
-
We are all peasants (slaves even) to money. There are very few that escape it's insidius tentacles. And we all know that the best fighters fight for money, so whack in some dosh and a coloured cloth, and you have a mighty fighting force!
I still maintain that bretonnia would beat us if they invaded tomorrow, simply due to logistics. If it was just empire vs bretonnia, then empire would triumph time and again (i think it is significantly bigger anyuway, but that may be spurious at best). However, currently the empire has to place a large holding force in the north that it CANNOT move. If it does, chaos would sweep down and destroy everything, including the bretonnians. Therefore, only a fraction of the total force available can be used against the whole of the bretonnian war machine. Even with ambushes, etc, they would probably outnumber us sometimes, and are far superior in that their staple knights are encased in armour, and our staple is the humble halberdier, which judging by many topics in this forum is enough said.
And this is assuming no ther force gets on in the act, and they would be stupid not to. The empire's gretaest strength (or difference) to most other countries is that it allows free trade and is capitalist. However, it is a double edged sword as it makes things a lot easier for spies. Although goblin and skaven spies are easily rooted out, marienburg and border prince ones are less so. Orcs and goblins will try to batter some of the outlying provinces, skaven will at least make some effort at ingenius destruction (with inevitable spectacular failure!), and bandit communities will stretch local defence forces to the hilt, as happens in during all forms of unrest.
I stress that bretonnia could never take empire fully, as i doubt they could take altdorf, and we all know how hard it is to take middenheim. But they could take the richer southern lands (until bandits make it a pain to do so), and let other armies chip away at barrier states, which will become their priority to protect. And the Emperor must protect the north (which has no armies of its own left), which makes the southern electors angry and confused, as they see their own lands destroyed and none of the help they gave to the north. So they may even split to a north-south divide, overthrow the empire or completely disintegrate as each elector tries to defend his province.
But the entire argument is hypothetical, so discussing political nuances may be alittle premature, but if an evil zombie takes over the bretonnian throne...... zombie knights!
-
As I said before, There's little chance Bretonia would win a full scale war against The Empire.
1. Technology. The Empire is more advanced then Bretonia. The evolution of war went from a Knight on a horse, to a guy walking around with a gun/black powder weapons for a reason. Its better. I'm no historian but the term "Calvery", in the military today, is a reference to a helicopter, not a horse.
2. Economically. - The Empire is more capable of mass production of supplies. Bretonia isn't capable of creating the massive amounts needed for an extended war. For a real world comparison, look at the American Civil War, who won, and why.
3. Mentality- The Bretonians are restricted by the code of Chivalry. The Empire's goal is to win. So, assassination, poison, flight (to fight another day) and other underhanded things would all be fair (It is war afterwall).
I could see the Bretonians being successful if the Empire actually fought on their terms, but they wouldn't. An approaching Bretonian army would see the Empire army retreat into a walled city, with all their food stuffs, and then point all its cannon at them. Lets see those Bretonians knights charge up walls. :-D
Also, an extended war of attrition favors the Empire, because they're not restricting themselves from employing mercenaries. So, losses would be replenished faster. I don't see it as being unrealistic for an Empire General to hire chaos marauders to fight with them against Bretonia.
And every other reason aside, the main reason is: Sigmar definitely can beat up the Lady of the Lake. :-D
-
...It is war afterwall...
Is that what the Empire will build after the war to keep the Bretonnians in Bretonnia?
And every other reason aside, the main reason is: Sigmar definitely can beat up the Lady of the Lake.
Is it ok for a man to beat up a woman if she is a diety?
-
The empire could also hire an entire dogs of war army, which the brettonians wouldnt, and i agree, sigmar would beat the lady of the lake 8-)
-
Anyway, Chaimo, I'm not trying to be an ass or insult anyone. This argument is fun for me and should only be regarded as fun. I really mean no offense. I only take exception to one statement:
Jingoism knows no bounds and even today's modern peasant will fight unquestioningly for his/her master merely in the name of patriotism or a flag.
I would ask that you keep your own political beliefs out of this argument. I don't appreciate being called a peasant, either. Feel free to email or message me if you wish to discuss this further.
What political beliefs did I express? "Peasant," "jingoism" and "patriotism" are all neutral sociological terms. Can I not say "communist", "Jacobite" or "poll booth" without offending you either? Do you have any idea what country I am from, let alone my history of voting? My statement can/could and was intended to be spread across the idealogical spectrum, so if that is all that it takes to offend you then I will make sure that I stay off of your threads.
(Or is it the picture of Trudeau doing a pirouette that offends you? Or the quote from prince Arthur? If so you totally misunderstand these, as Trudeau's pirouette was merely meant to question court protocol about differences of treatment between royalty and heads of state, and prince Arthur's quote is merely about him losing his virginity, so there is no reason for you to assume secret ideological assumptions behind these either.)
-
...It is war afterwall...
Is that what the Empire will build after the war to keep the Bretonnians in Bretonnia?
Oh how witty. You discovered an error the spell check didn't catch. I'm honored to be the recipient of your 2960th witty post.
And every other reason aside, the main reason is: Sigmar definitely can beat up the Lady of the Lake.
Is it ok for a man to beat up a woman if she is a diety?
Spoken like a true witch loving, Bretonian kissing, chaos tainted, cultist. Someone around here needs a visit from the priests, warrior priests. Fire up the grill boys.
-
Calm down guys. We're grown men who play with toy soldiers, talking about which fantasy country could kick which other fantasy country's ass - on the internet. If we actually start insulting each other over it we're no better than the Star Wars VS Star Trek crowd :wink:
* runs like hell before the Wars-VS-Trek crowd gets him *
-
Calm down guys. We're grown men who play with toy soldiers, talking about which fantasy country could kick which other fantasy country's ass - on the internet. If we actually start insulting each other over it we're no better than the Star Wars VS Star Trek crowd :wink:
* runs like hell before the Wars-VS-Trek crowd gets him *
You can run General Helstrom, but you can't hide! Admit it! Spock's vulcan mind meld would so own Darth Vader's Force Choke! and he wouldn't even break one shellac coated hair. Admit it!! Come on!!!
*runs after General Helstrom shaking fist*
-
their staple knights are encased in armour, and our staple is the humble halberdier, which judging by many topics in this forum is enough said.
Hey now. Dont poke at the Halberdier. He never did anything to you. Without them, what would the empire have?
2. Economically. - The Empire is more capable of mass production of supplies. Bretonia isn't capable of creating the massive amounts needed for an extended war. For a real world comparison, look at the American Civil War, who won, and why. [/qiote]
Need I tell you the south owned at the beginning because they had better cavalry? Huh! Anyway, the South almost won, by a hair. But dont get me started.
Now, the Bretts would win, tell me why not. The empire is weaker than the bretts after the breeze, and the bretts are stronger. To the guy that said lets see them horses run up walls. Well, they wouldnt. Theyd wait till we surrender or starve. Simply put.
Brunth
-
Is it ok for a man to beat up a woman if she is a diety?
It's a bit unfair if she is watching her weight as she could be understrength. :wink:
Why on earth would Bretonnia make any concerted effort against the Empire - we are the buffer for them from a lot of nasties.
They have managed to stay coddled in their feudal medieval set-up precisely because they haven't had to grow up to modern warfare, because the Empire cushions them from it all.
You might get the odd local Bret Lord near the border who gets upset about his honour and sallies across into the Empire because his feelings are hurt, but the Kingdom as a whole knows the score.
The population count would be an interesting factor though - any of our fluff majors got any statistics?
:?
What is the ratio of peasants per knight?
I would find it difficult to believe that they could raise any more knights than we could, and then our infantry is much better trained.
:wink:
-
Why on earth would Bretonnia make any concerted effort against the Empire - we are the buffer for them from a lot of nasties.
They have managed to stay coddled in their feudal medieval set-up precisely because they haven't had to grow up to modern warfare, because the Empire cushions them from it all.
You might get the odd local Bret Lord near the border who gets upset about his honour and sallies across into the Empire because his feelings are hurt, but the Kingdom as a whole knows the score.
Agreed. Plain as that.
-
and then our infantry is much better trained.
Trained at all, against something else than a log with a smilie face drawn on it.
-
Hey! Those logs are all too easy to outwit in a battle situation. Its easy to moan (fun too :-D), but at least those poor men at arms are trying...
Ive been saying it from the start that bretonnia wouldnt wge war on the empire, but we're dealing with hypotheticals. Could bretonnia beat the empire? Could sigmar beat the lady ofthe lake? Is she an elf? Does that mean man is better than elf? Does that mean we could invade ulthuan or athelorn? Does that make us evil? See the questions you raise by doubting the replies? :-D
-
Where on earth did my post go? I am very sure I posted on this yesterday or the day before.
Oh yes, I was saying that bretonnia will find it harder to replace losses as they are restriced by the feudal system in how to train knights, and they can only raise so many peasants, as the more peasants fighting means less working the land, which leaves less food for teveryone, including the fighters, etc.
The empire is not as harmed by losses and can easily raise extra troops by making more weapons and searching for more mercenaries.
-
Of course Sigmar could beat the lady of the lake.
In fact, if he did, he'd smash her so hard that it would go back in time and she would have been dead since before Sigmar punched his way out of his mother's womb.
And then, all past battles with Bretonnia would retroactively become Empire victories.
-
Just like Chuck Norris after all :lol:
-
New campaign bets against the Empire, that sounds cool. It will be interesting turn in the fluff. The interesting part is who will be bad?
Than the chaos take all over the old world, the lizards die and we start to play 40k.
-
Just like Chuck Norris after all :lol:
Made me choke on my drink....
I wouldn't compare Chuck Norris to Sigmar...I'd say Chuck Norris is more like Khorne, sitting on a mound of skulls that stretch as far as the eyes can see. That's all the people he has roundhouse kicked, in the last 10 minutes...
-
New campaign bets against the Empire, that sounds cool. It will be interesting turn in the fluff.
Wow, a campaign against the Empire, how cool and original is THAT?
-
Good guys fight each other, thats cool.
-
Yeah, both empire and bretonnia get bored of kicking the smae old skaven, orcs and chaos chaps and start to wonder... how cool would it be to skewer small and furless things/blast men in tin hats from afar? The rest as they say is history (or the future in this case).
-
Of course Sigmar could beat the lady of the lake.
In fact, if he did, he'd smash her so hard that it would go back in time and she would have been dead since before Sigmar punched his way out of his mother's womb.
And then, all past battles with Bretonnia would retroactively become Empire victories.
Thanks for the morning laugh Racticas. I think a cool magic item for our heroes would be stretch crotch pants. So, our knights could do roundhouse kicks too. :-D mmmm roundhouse kicks in fullplate. Who needs a sword of might when you have a foot of might?
-
I wouldn't compare Chuck Norris to Sigmar...I'd say Chuck Norris is more like Khorne, sitting on a mound of skulls that stretch as far as the eyes can see. That's all the people he has roundhouse kicked, in the last 10 minutes...
Well, I woluld compare Chuck with Sigmar and not with Khorne because they are always the good, handsome guys who invariably win and kiss the nice girl at the end of the story. 8-) They are nice also, and Khorne isn't :-P
Anyway, seeing Sigmar roundhouse kicking the Lady of the Lake in the face and saying "Told ya, I'm rude baby" instead of kissing her would be nice. :lol:
-
Don't forget, he'd urinate in the lake too. I don't think that Chuck Norris would go that far.
-
Well, I woluld compare Chuck with Sigmar and not with Khorne...
Oh come on, where do you think Chuck Norris got his roundhouse kicks? Martial arts? I think NOT! Well, he may have gotten the first one from martial arts but the other 17 into a writhing corpse are definitely Khorne Khnowledge. :-D
So, we're all in agreement that Chuck Norris would win a fight between the Lady of the Lake, Sigmar, and Khorne?
-
So, we're all in agreement that Chuck Norris would win a fight between the Lady of the Lake, Sigmar, and Khorne?
Not a hope in hell. Jack Bauer would slap em all silly (he saves punches for tough oppnents.
Remember, you're only alive because Jack hasn't gotten around to killing you yet.
cheers
duckman
-
On the strength of the arguments placed forward so far, I have to say that Chaimo has carried the day convincingly in my book.
I believe that Bretonnia would wipe the floor with the Empire... at this time.
Bearing in mind that we are attempting to place a historical realism from our own history onto two separate fictional regions it's always going to be open to a variety of perspectives, all with different quantities of passion and fact.
Some people here are under a serious misconception about how far ahead of the Bretonnia the Empire actually are...
The Empire has 9 Steam tanks but they have NO steam trains, no steam tractors for the cultivation of intense production techniques, no steam machinery in factories.
This is not the Industrial Revolution complete with Dickensian tales of woe.
There is no Shropshireberg , there is NO Iron Bridge...
Yes.
They have black powder weapons but no breech loading weapons.
I maintain that the Empire is still very much a feudal economy based on a loose conglomerate of monarchies.
Apart from a few technological gifts from the Dwarves the Empire is very similar in it's make up to Bretonnia.
Bretonnia is not bound by chivalry in it's desires to stretch it's borders.
Chivalry exists at court, in the wooing of the fairer sex and at tournaments...
On the field of battle it's a bloodsport where no quarter need be asked for or given... ask ANY Templar Knight from Palestine to the British Isles.
They were not renowned for their forgiveness.
William the Conqueror was not short on strategy and he took England for himself and made it French.
Strike one for the Breton.
Lastly, the Empire is in such a state right now after the very taxing Chaos incursions that it is wobbling and it is ripe for the picking.
When it gets back opn it's feet it has every possibility of being the strongest nation in the old World but not right now.
-
We are not quite feudal, I stand by my analogy of the English civil war, with the empire being similar to the roundheads. Perhaps a little before his, say after Henry VIII.
I cannot see bretonnians getting into the forests. We would be able to take them down very easily when they have little space to maneuver their big horses.
Ican see the picture, a knight and a few men at arms are walking/trotting down a path, knight removes helet to wipe forehead, BANG BANG BANG, no more Mr knight, and them some empire soldiers charge out from the trees and stab the men at arms.
I would accept brettonia could advance up to the reik, but not beyond.
It becomes too difficult for a horse based army backed up by badly trained footmen to fight effectively in a forest.
As carlo said we should use game mechanics, I will.
Skirmish/Mordheim style game, LOTS of trees. Only a thin path has no trees.
250pts either side.
Brettonia has to deploy on thin path. All empire men count as hidden (just like mordheim rules). Empire can deploy anywhere. Empire can target anyone, brettonia can only target nearest seen model.
In this game, I would say the empire have the higher chance of winning, as they surprise, and they can surround the brettonians while powerful knights can't use all their advantages.
I think that we would win by stretching, raiding, ambushing. I'm sure both Carlo and Gargolyle will agree the empire can win by that. Look at the problems US/Uk are having in afghanistan, although it is a little different.
-
Also, the current state of the Empire can be pretty much left aside. Yeah, the northern forces are still occupied and had to pay quite a toll, but you will see that most of the southern provinces weren't harmed much by the gentle breeze of Chaos, and after all, that's more or less where the bretonnians would have to come across. Also, when discussing OUR current state, one should also consider that bretonnia wqas weakened as well, already because their King lead a crusade of their finest knights into the north. I don't really believe ALL of them came back, you know?
Secondly, all these debattes about campaigning IN the empire are rather pointless to me, since I don't see any way a reasonably big force could ever make it into the Empire. The only ways they can go are through marshes and swamps (having fun with their full armours and heavy horses) or through rather narrow mountain passes, guarded by strongholds stuffed to the brim with cannons and mortars, (cross)bowmen and handgunners. And even if they made their way past them somehow, they would find their force trying to pour out of a bottleneck, where they will already be expected by another gun-totting force who will feel like shooting fish in a barrel. As I said, in the end, some bretonnians might even break through them, but they certainly won't be enough to keep up any plans of advancing.
And THAT's the real "advancement" the Empire has over Bretonnia. Bretonnian knights know only one manouver on the battlefield - charge with flying banners and readied lances. Their not fighting after a concept of chivalry, but rather a codex of honour which at times is rather cumbersome. Many imperial generals won't have any problems ressorting to dirty, but effective tricks. Combine that with the factors mentioned above and you will see that there will never be a bretonnian force that can invade the Empire AND keep up a reasonable size to continue their campaign.
-
I'll give a short war to Bretonia, where Bretonia forms up one massive army, makes a surgical strike at altdorf and kills the Emperor. Once the Emperor was gone, you would have the Elector Counts trying to jockey for position, Sigmarites and Followers of Ulric at each others' throats, in fighting, and power struggles in the face of foreign invaders in their capital. In this type of scenario, the Empire might be forced to sue for Peace, and give up some land.
BUT, a long, drawn out, war of attrition, favors the Empire, for the simple reason that the Empire will be able to replenish their losses easier then the Bretonians. The Empire would have its own human pool to draw from, and they would have tilean mercenaries. The Bretonians would refuse to deal with mercenaries, and since their knights are mostly nobility, their rate of replenishment is restricted by Bretonian birthrates.
-
I'll give a short war to Bretonia, where Bretonia forms up one massive army, makes a surgical strike at altdorf and kills the Emperor.
Bretonnia could win a short war, but it would be a land grab (a costly one at that) of border territory. They would never capture a major city, let alone Altdorf itself.
-
Bretonnia could win a short war, but it would be a land grab (a costly one at that) of border territory. They would never capture a major city, let alone Altdorf itself.
I'm inclined to agree that the major cities would be a serious obstacle to the Bretonnian army.
I cannot see bretonnians getting into the forests. We would be able to take them down very easily when they have little space to maneuver their big horses.
If you are reduced to hiding in a forest like a bandit , then you've already lost I'm afraid.
-
Note my point about the taliban in afghanistan- guerillas win wars.
In addition, who says we have to hide? I can't see a brettonian lance charging into the edge of a forest as it is.
Most of our territory is forest anyway, so in effect the empire is holding 70%+ of its land, hardly a lost war in my opinion.
Remember that this tactic could be used not just in small skirmishs but in large battles, where the emprie will quickly sandwich those lances, and we all know how badly brets take flank charges.
@Phydox: They would never get somewhere like altdorf in a 'surgical strike'. Secondly, have you noticed eathclaw? Thats why Karl Franz can't be asasinated. He would be in talabheim before the brettonians had stromed a breach (if he wanted to, and if the bretonnians actually managed to get a breach)
It would be difficult to make such a strike against any such position due to the limited approaches for such a force (Gisoreux Gap, Axe Bite Pass, Marches) and all these locations are defended aenoguh to slow the bretonnians and cause losses.
Oh, and lastly, if the brettonian generals were sensible (like me :-D ) then they would take hordes ofd men at arms and not many knights. Luckily, they aren't like me, so woill take lots of knights, which makes it impossible to advance beyond the reik.
-
In addition, who says we have to hide? I can't see a brettonian lance charging into the edge of a forest as it is.
I'm not sure what your point is here... but I can tell you this, my Empire army will NEVER cower in a forest like a Brigand.
The Empire meets the enemy on the field of battle, with pride swelling their collective chest. Wood Elves hide in Forests.
Most of our territory is forest anyway, so in effect the empire is holding 70%+ of its land, hardly a lost war in my opinion.
At least 50% of the Empire is indeed forest.
At least 20% of the forest is too dangerous to venture into because of robbers, brigands, nefarious lawless scum and even worse... Chaos Infestation , generally Beastmen.
So NO, the forests are not an option for hiding in as a strategy for defeating Bretonnia.
Bretonnians are not foolish, if you hide in the forest they will simply put it to the torch, and burn you out, or burn you alive.
As you flee the Beastmen will pick off the stragglers.
Remember that this tactic could be used not just in small skirmishs but in large battles, where the emprie will quickly sandwich those lances, and we all know how badly brets take flank charges.
I can't see this happening either.
Easy to talk about, but difficult to implement.
-
Note my point about the taliban in afghanistan- guerillas win wars.
Erm, no. Guerrillas annoy. Guerrillas harass. Guerrillas weaken the foundations upon which a country can be built. They dont win wars. Using your own example, we have won the war in Afghanistan, we just havn't killed them all, or converted them to ourway of thinking. There is no chance that the taliban will win in Afghanistan as they simply dont have the resources or pool of manpower to draw upon.
And to those saying the south is nice and safe, I point to the entire point of the Storm of Chaos, that of the relief forces going to the north. And as far as everyone is concerned, due to the almost total destruction of the northern armies in their desperate rearguard action, they are still there in the majority, as they cannot leave the north undefended (emperor's wishes overall petty count's objections). Therefore, the south is relatively undefended, and if they can get past the border forts, they could have a field day, as most of the knights did return home unlike our southern garrisons.
And if the bretonnians could capture the population centres in the south, it would be victory bretonnia. War is won on production facilities, not land held, and even if the empire held 70% of the arable farmland, and the bretonnian's strikes took the weakly held towns in the south, they would have the MASSIVE producing facilites boasted about as the empire's salvation (which i doubt verily much). And if the bretonnians could get their hands on handguns and cannons... Remember that the southern towns dont have the massive fortifications that the northen ones boasted, and even bretonnians can win sieges (they are not the incompetents that you seem to think they are. Occasionally they do step off their horses :-P) With southern garrisons runningat an all time low, a besieging army could break into many fragments and take several towns simultaneously, building siege engines and running through most settlements.
Im not saying they could take the empire straight off. They would reach teh reik and be halted by logistics. But they could take most of the south, including our critical town of nuln. However, our culture and values are such that would provoke rebellion, not only in the empire but in bretonnia proper, and so the knights must adapt their feudal values or suffer a revolt, and the land would never truly be fully in their hands for several hundred years, as taking land always breeds recedivists - look at russia pre-communist for examples of autocratic regimes taking other lands (baltics, etc) and russifying them to no avail - hundreds of years later and there was still a freedom movement. Imagine what would happen of the north was still allowed to feed that feeling with propaganda and supplies.
Either way, it would pointlessly drain the resources when they need them most, so it probably wouldnt happen. But the Dark Lord of Moussilon is gaining power and influence, and he hungers for revenge... <insert plot line featuring a nice, shiny new capmpaign featuring zombie knights, zombie pirates and everything zombie relayed - huzzah!>
-
Whatever leads you people to believe that "the south" sent most of its forces north and left its own territories undefended... hey, it's not like a gigantic army of the Undead has just returned to Silvania and it's also not like a massive Waaagh! poured into the southern empire just recently, so there's no need for presence of armed forces there for sure...
and especially @ reiksmarshall: You know who was in Afghanistan before "you" got there? You know who got their a$$es handed to them by mere Mudjahedin-guerrilas? (that's not to say I actually support the "imperial guerrila"-idea in any way)
-
The empire isn't a modern society, it may not be feudal but its not that different. The majority of the population will be rural, and mainly concentrated in agrarian activities. Production isn't concentrated in large factories but consists of "cottage industries" spread out across the land. Yes there are concentrations of production but that will represent a small fraction of total output. These might go into some of the more specialist war production such as cannon and plate armour. But the majority of weapons are going to be made by skilled craftsmen distributed around the land. So material production centers are not as big a factor in premodern societies. Also as political centers cities arent a big factor. At this time in european history (from 1100 to 1600) courts where constantly on the move, and holding of an opponents capital didnt gaurantee victory. After all its was only really a symbol. Undertaking a siege of a city the size of Altodorf or Nuln would be a huge undertaking just imagine the size of the circumvention lines, and both cities stradle navigable rivers which would alow for easy resuply, and the brettonians dont really have anything good for stopping ships (unlike us who could set up a cannon battery up or down stream from the city) Such a seige would take years. I dont really see Knights wanting to wait around for such an activity. And Brettonian infantry are fuedal levies that have to return to work the fields else everyone back home will starve. A state at this point in our history was more of an idea of loyalty to a overlord, you are tied to them by loyalty and they by loyalty to their supperiors. To some extent this has broken down by the period our empire exist in, with a kind of merchantile class evolving, ie they dont derive wealth from land. But many of these people want to be part of this old rulling elite not replace it.
I just think Brettonia could kick are butt a few times and after that they will be taught the folly of their way by being unable to gain any local loyalty and gradually bled dry.
-
Using your own example, we have won the war in Afghanistan, we just havn't killed them all, or converted them to ourway of thinking.
You know who was in Afghanistan before "you" got there?
@ Reiksmarshall, he meant the Taliban vs. the Soviets, not the Coalition (the "us" you are refering to, Hagen?). But another example of guerilla warfare working is the Viet Cong vs. American public opinion.
The Empire wouldn't go to guerilla war anyway, we would hold the cities. Do we have any numbers about how many people we lost in the SoC? I don't think it is as bad as many people believe. Each city would have maintained more than enough of its soldiers to withstand an attack, for a while anyway. I still contend the Brets couldn't take a major city, they are outmatched in artillery. Even depleted garrisons could take disasterous tolls on a besieging Bret force with the edge in weaponry.
-
Another difference is that brettonia has hardly any extra manpower to draw on., What they send over the mountains will be pretty much it. They can't easily raise troops.
You can't burn that much forest.
My point is that as soon as you start crossing the reik (in your very heavy armour, slowly, under heavy fire from a dry, determined enemy in a defended position...) knighs and lance formation will have very ;limited uses. I know carlo has a good peasant army, but most bret generals would not do what he does, and that would be their downfall.
Juat thiking, brettonia against Empire. Wait a sec, we are the empire generals, right? That's why we are going to win, because we have us.
The brets don't have us.
-
I dont really see Knights wanting to wait around for such an activity.
Ofcorse you dont. You dont see you being drafted to a place you dont even know whats going on.
But Knights would wait. Your saying thel get bored and throw rocks at the walls?
And yes Guvnor, you can burn that much forest.
-
The empire is rather a wet place too. And we've been tryiong to burn down the forests to get rid of beastmen for a VERY long time.
-
And yes Guvnor, you can burn that much forest.
Correct.
I still can't understand why any Empire hero worth his salt would be cowering in a forest in the first place.
Sounds cowardly to me.
-
Empire doesn't have conventions about cowardice. I am prepared to hide in a forest if it means I win.
Don't forget you won't get across the reik.
-
Secondly, have you noticed eathclaw? Thats why Karl Franz can't be asasinated. He would be in talabheim before the brettonians had stromed a breach
And isn't talabheim even harder to take than Altdorf? It is in the middle of a gigantic crater, protected by mountains at first, which there is only one way to get through, then vast city walls, and then they have a constant supply from the river taal... :?
-
No one said Robin Hoods a coward and thats exactly what he did. Coward and being smart are two different things. Using the terrain to your advantage is just the sensible thing to do. I have to fight an all cavalry army, I know i will fight them in trees! That way they can't stay formed up, or charge too fast or manoever. I can stick people up in trees to shot them and put down pit traps so that their horses will break their legs as they charge! Or I could find a nice big featureless plain just perfect for cavalry where they can outflank and surrond me due to superior mobility. Which do you think the smart Imperial general is going to pick?
And no I dont think Knights are going to sit around and throw rock at the walls, but neither do I think they are going to cut wood, build trebuchets or operate them. Neither do i think they will want to man picket lines in the middle of the night, forage for food and escort pack animals around the place. I dont think they will want dig trenches, build siege towers, addemble pallaises, level ground for seige engines with a shovel under fire, dig tunnels under the wall to fire them. Seiges are boring and monotonous, filled whith many degrading tasks. Things I dont see noble brettonians wanting to do, which leaves them bored, and bored troops are a liability, they would start raiding for plunder and as they seperate up, going further and in smaller groups they become more vunearable, until suddenly the armies strength is being drained away by a thousand cuts.
So yes to forests and laughing at brettonians trying to surond a city the size of Altodorf which is itself built on a series of islands. As for Nuln, that too stradles a river making circumvention difficult and also will have a LOT of cannons, perfect to defend itself from attack
-
Hah! Thats funny, I don't remember William the Conqueror having those sorts of problems when he subjugated all of England under his Bretonnian heel of steel.
A few mythical robbers and vagabonds hiding in dank forests didn't halt his reign of unchallenged authority.
Nobody did.
He spanked the Empire and choked the life out of it.
-
Did the Norse or Saxon rulers of England in 1066 have landsknechts, cannon, handguns, (mercenary) pikemen, cuirassiers and generals who knew how to use them?
There's a reason why the medieval Knight lost his primacy on the battlefield by the time the Renaissance rolled around - as aptly displayed when I went to visit the Royal Ontario Museum on my recent trip to the GTA.
(As an aside, I was inordinately excited seeing cuirassier armour - yay, Pistoliers! - and landsknecht armour and Great swords... even including the wiggly sword used by the Empire Greatsword Champion! That is, when I wasn't thinking how great it would be to see Cathay done in WFRP, Warmaster or WFB while wanderign their Chinese exhibits)
The only potential ruler of Bretonnia who'd even consider full-scale war with the Empire would be Mallobaude (the Black Knight of Mousillon, as described in Barony of the Damned) and he couldn't give a whit about the Lady of the Lake's chivalry - nor is he adverse to hiring vampires, necromancers and black powder-toting mercenaries - and if he succeeded in conquering Bretonnia he would be a very serious concern for Marienburg, Bilbali and the Empire.
In fact, there'd probably be the equivalent of the kind of Crusade which kicked the Arabians out of Estalia - and they weren't necessarily evil (though Jaffar got a lot of bad press) - drawing the Tilean and Estalian realms and the Empire into the Kingdom... who'd probably try to divvy up the spoils while they were at it! I can even imagine L'Anguille serving as the equivalent of Magritta - the last unconquered city used as a rallying point for the Cruaders. (It's already defended by the Brethren of the Lighthouse, plus the Elftown could possibly do something to keep Tor Alessi from falling to darkness. Plus, it's handily close to Couronne, too!)
Still, better that than leave Mallobaude on the throne.
Gary
-
Did the Norse or Saxon rulers of England in 1066 have landsknechts, cannon, handguns, (mercenary) pikemen, cuirassiers and generals who knew how to use them?
No, they didn't suffer the misfortune of having retards from a design studio mixing and matching weaponry from 600 years apart.
-
No, they didn't suffer the misfortune of having retards from a design studio mixing and matching weaponry from 600 years apart.
Why not even make it a thousand years, while you're still at it...?
-
No, they didn't suffer the misfortune of having retards from a design studio mixing and matching weaponry from 600 years apart.
Why not even make it a thousand years, while you're still at it...?
1415 to 1915 should about cover it. :-D