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Imperial Artisans ... The Painters, Crafters & Writers Guilds => The Brush and Palette => Topic started by: liuzheng on June 08, 2008, 06:53:24 AM

Title: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on June 08, 2008, 06:53:24 AM
These days, I wanted to make some Cathay soldiers to enforce my empire army. I choose the style of Ming Dynasty in Chinese history. The below is an old painting of Ming cavalry.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/20080328_4f37dd8741e80d764bedGXLBUs.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on June 08, 2008, 06:54:37 AM
First, the cavalry captain.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/003-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/005-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/001-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on June 08, 2008, 06:55:33 AM
I changed the weapon later.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/011-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/012-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/013-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on June 08, 2008, 06:56:29 AM
And then, the SB.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/014-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/015-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/016-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on June 08, 2008, 06:57:17 AM
The cavalry standard bearer is finished.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/027-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/023-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/025-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on June 08, 2008, 06:58:46 AM
A Cathayan woman.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/028-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/029-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/030-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: King on June 08, 2008, 07:37:57 AM
WOW, just WOW!!! You have great sculpting Kung fu skills  :icon_eek: Were is the jaw dropping smiley when we need it so much. I don't know what else to say Liuzheng, I mean keep them coming as they are great, both sculpting wise and painting wise.  :eusa_clap:  :::cheers::: These are really incredible  :ph34r:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Soju on June 08, 2008, 07:51:09 AM
Liu you sexy beast! You are making me teary eyed at these models! Perry miniatures are the only blokes that have done good 28/35mm fantasy scale Asian models (Japanese and Koreans to be exact); but these guys look great!

Please make tonnes of updates!

sj
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on June 08, 2008, 08:09:17 AM
Thank you, King and soju. It's a long time after my empire army finished. I made some other minis such as VC, BoC and 40k. But the human of empire is always the lovest one for me. So I am back with new Cathay minis. The China has a long history which is filled with legends and heroes. I want to show you a little of it. Wish you like.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Soju on June 08, 2008, 08:22:10 AM
Damn straight I'm going to like. I saw your other armies on Warseer - you're seriously one talented fella.

You could even have those hopping zombies hahaha... but anyways, I can't wait for any infantry models you'll be doing.

sj
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Shadowlord on June 08, 2008, 08:31:55 AM
Most people I know don't impress me but...

 :icon_eek:

There is only one army I would die for like I do for Empire (over reaction please...), and that is a Cathay one (made from GW stuff).

I officially hate yer guts (from pure jealousy).

This is just --->  :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on June 08, 2008, 08:43:31 AM
Thanks again, Soju and Shadowlord.
 :happy:

There is a infantry model of Cathay Empire. But the helmet will be changed.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/018-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/020-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Nix on June 08, 2008, 09:01:24 AM
WOW, I second the request for the jaw-dropping smiley. These minis are so cool!  :eusa_clap:

I always dreamed about cathayan army, even tried to write rules for it. If only I had such sculpting skills...

By the way, I see you are using Zvezda infantry bits. Am I right?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on June 08, 2008, 09:17:25 AM
WOW, I second the request for the jaw-dropping smiley. These minis are so cool!  :eusa_clap:

I always dreamed about cathayan army, even tried to write rules for it. If only I had such sculpting skills...

By the way, I see you are using Zvezda infantry bits. Am I right?


Yes, I use some Zvezda infantry bits. :smile2:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Nix on June 08, 2008, 11:54:48 AM
Yes, I use some Zvezda infantry bits. :smile2:

Thanks, you just gave me an idea how to use mine Zvezda bits  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Siberius on June 08, 2008, 11:57:30 AM
Nice mixing of Empire and Dark Elf bits  8-)

This is looking like it is going to be stunning... I can't wait to see more  :lol:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Gneisenau on June 08, 2008, 12:09:28 PM
Hmmm...

...

Liuzheng, you rock.

I knew already that your painting skills are excellent, but those conversions are magnificent.

:eusa_clap:

Now I've got to look where I dropped my jaw.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: steveb on June 08, 2008, 02:43:32 PM
Superb, I am speechless. hen how, liusheng shin shung.  steveb
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Siamtiger on June 08, 2008, 05:26:58 PM
Good looking miniatures, but wouldn't it be easier and less time consuming using the miniatures from the Perry Twins or so?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: imperialforge on June 08, 2008, 06:07:50 PM
W... W... WHOA!

I need to pick up and glue back together my jaw... I might have to pin it...

THOSE ARE BLOODY BRILLIANT!  :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
And I see someone is taking my plastic modeling advice seriously!  :icon_lol: Those are seriously beautiful models!
PLEASE, MORE!
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Pistol Pete on June 08, 2008, 07:16:44 PM
Outstanding!  I really love the little cathayan woman.  She's got a lot of personality.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Dino! on June 08, 2008, 07:48:35 PM
I like the soldier. Very chinese looking. Can't wait to see a whole block of these guys. Good luck.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on June 08, 2008, 07:52:08 PM
I have only this to add :

(http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/confused/confused0053.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: thecoldwarrior on June 08, 2008, 08:14:43 PM
What the hell is your problem?!? Also, is it contagious?  :icon_redface:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: fbjorn on June 08, 2008, 08:47:25 PM
The freehand paintings are also just wonderful. I love the womans dress.

By the way, what material do you use for modeling?
f bjorn
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: General Braunschweiger on June 08, 2008, 11:52:04 PM
Simply stunning, if you can mass produce these I would buy them in a second.

Brilliant!
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: M. Armand on June 09, 2008, 01:06:47 AM
I have only this to add :

(http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/confused/confused0053.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net)

My sentiments exactly.  Very, very well done.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Otaku on June 09, 2008, 01:12:36 AM
Really great stuff.  I think the painting could be a little better on the horse (look along the the leather strap) and on the stripes on the banner. But thats not a big problem. Maybe for future horses you might want to green stuff the crack under the horse as well. If you have such a nice rider why not have a really nice horse as well? I know they aren't as fun to do... just my two cents.   Great job!
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on June 09, 2008, 03:24:42 AM
To Siberius: Thanks, and I mix of Empire and High Elf too.

To Gneisenau: Thanks a lot.

To steveb: Thanks for your Chinese reply.

To Siamtiger: Thanks for your advice, but in my country, there is few series of miniatures to buy, and the shipment is so high…

To imperialforge: Thanks, you are my first teacher of conversions. The banner is taking your plastic modeling advice. Thank again.

To Pistol Pete: Thanks, the little woman was a soldier’s wife. She looked at the moon and miss her husband.

To Dino!: I’m glad that you like my work. The infantry will come soon.

To warhammerlord_soth, thecoldwarrior and M. Armand: Thank you for your appreciate.

To fbjorn: Thanks. The material I use is TAMIYA epoxy putty (quick type), just like the GW green putty.

To General Braunschweiger: Thanks. Maybe someday I can mass produce them.

To Otaku: Thanks for your advice. I will repaint the leather strap and the stripes on the banner. And the horse…it may be a great project and need a plenty of putty, but I will try someday.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Midaski on June 09, 2008, 10:29:11 AM
Well they are absolutely fabulous.

I know your Steam Tank was a major project that got rave reviews - glad to see you are carrying on the good work.

It would be nice to see a bit of the WiP shots - I am unsure as to how much is 'all' putty, and how much is putty over an existing plastic body part.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Rorrak on June 09, 2008, 10:41:48 AM
Wow, you capture the essense of the cathay army so well.

Very well done.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: skinkslayer on June 09, 2008, 11:06:12 AM
 :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: norbert on June 09, 2008, 04:00:53 PM
These are great!  What rules are you going to use for them in game?  Dog of War light cav. or maybe count them as Ogla Kahns wolfboys?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: xxadriaanxx on June 09, 2008, 06:24:33 PM
Awesome conversions and cool paintjob!
Very nice theme!
I love you people who use paintings as inspiration!
keep it coming, good job!
a3aan
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Holland on June 09, 2008, 11:42:10 PM
O glories Sigmar!!! how did i miss this thread!!!

Go CAthaY!!!!

 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: neverness on June 10, 2008, 12:46:15 AM
Very nice work! I really think that GW is missing an opportunity by not expanding out to Cathay, Ind and Nippon with their official releases. Your models, and the attention you're getting and will continue to get, reinforce the notion that there is a market amongst Warhammer players for this army.

Your sculpting is very impressive! Too bad you didn't create a mold for some of this stuff, you could mass produce these at a profit I'm sure. Your painting is very nice. The elegant choice of colors and your clean style just make for some wickedly nice eye candy!

Thanks! Please continue!
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Syn Ace on June 10, 2008, 06:48:32 AM
I wish I had your skill and patience. Those are excellent looking models and the woman model is exquisite. Bravo!

Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Union General on June 10, 2008, 06:11:54 PM
Great models!  :eusa_clap:
Do you think you'll be able to pull off the "ornate cannons" they reference in the rulebook?  :-D
Loving the infantry model and the cavalry standard bearer.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: GamesPoet on June 11, 2008, 01:52:42 AM
Yowza!

:eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

Makes me want to take an art sculpting class so maybe I could be as good as this. :icon_cool:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on June 11, 2008, 07:12:41 AM
Thanks my friends.

To Midaski: Thanks. I will show your more WIP shots, and wait for more advices.

To RorrakL Thanks. The main reason may be that I’m a Chinese. And some of my friends who studies history gave me lots of references.

To skinkslayer: Thank you very much.

To norbert: Thanks. I have no idea about the rule of Cathay army. Now I want use the Empire rule for it.

To xxadriaanxx: Thanks for your appreciation.

To Holland: Welcome to Cathay someday. It’s an amazing land.

To neverness: Thanks for your idea. When my sculpt skill is promoted, I would mass produce them.

To [SYN] Ace: Thanks. I think everyone has the skill and patience if you try.

To MrTrath: Thanks. I will make a cannon recently.

To GamesPoet: Wait for your great sculpting work in the future.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Albrecht Hexenjaeger on June 11, 2008, 07:35:55 AM
Holy f'in' WOW!!! :Ohmy: :Ohmy: :Ohmy:
 
:::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Hendrid on June 11, 2008, 08:41:46 AM
Just to add to the general consensus, but...WOW!

Damn fine mini's there. Complete units of the cavalry and infantry you've got started will be just breath-taking, nay legendary.

Lots of hard work has gone into the figures, but worth it.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Obi on June 11, 2008, 03:53:31 PM
What the !^(*#%#^(*$!@)(*#@)*($&#(^?

That's f*ing sick dude! I mean, I mean, I can't actually comment because it's taken my breath! The paintjob is awesome too, I mean, go play a GT. You'll win.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Your Mother on June 27, 2008, 10:59:18 AM
I just got back from vacation and I must say I am impressed. I cant wait to see a  whole army.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Van Der Steegh on June 27, 2008, 11:19:47 AM
Nice! I like the standard bearer most. The banner is really outstanding!
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Zak on June 28, 2008, 05:42:46 AM
wow what can i say but very nice all aroudn model.  :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Davros on June 28, 2008, 09:27:46 AM
I echo my fellow forum members comments  !  You  have an excellent eye for detail and are very talented .  Will you be doing the unit mentioed in the rule book 'strange warrior monks ' and using the flaggie rules for it ? Or just make them some sort of elite warrior unit like GS ? 

And the 'fierce hill people ' also mentioned you may be able to use as free company units possibly .  I look forward to seeing the rest of your work on the forum , and you are truly a great inspiration to people like myself who can't paint for toffee . 
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Ebola on June 28, 2008, 12:38:48 PM
I have an old 1987 Warhammer Army list book that has the Nippons in it.  Would a scan of these pages be of any help to you?

Cheers,
Ebola
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: patsy02 on June 28, 2008, 03:47:30 PM
It could be a cool source of unit inspiration. You'd probably also win the hearts of a few veterans a tourneys, assuring you some "best army" points  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: WolfyGriess on June 28, 2008, 06:53:37 PM
Really really amazing.

The look is stunning, and you've pulled it off so well.

I agree with everyone else  :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Soulcaresser on June 28, 2008, 08:08:42 PM
Unbelievable AMAZING my god :icon_eek: :icon_eek:

How long did you practice to get such sculpting?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: steveb on July 03, 2008, 04:59:40 PM
liuzheng shin shung, nin how, ne how ma?   It is a new month, do you have new figures to put on the post? what material/sources are you using for guidance in your sculpting? the one that you already posted was very good. I hope to see more. steveb
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on July 27, 2008, 04:05:40 AM
Sorry for long time absence. Thanks again, my dear friends.

To Albrecht Hexenjaeger, Hendrid, Obi, Your Mother, Van Der Steegh, zak, patsy02, and WolfyGriess: Thank you. Your praises are great encouragement for me to fulfill my army.

To Davros: The ideas of warrior monks and fierce hill people are very useful. Thanks a lot.

To Ebola: Thank you for the Army list. If it won't take lots time, please send it to my email (image61@gmail.com)

To Soulcaresser and steveb: I bagan to practice sculpture two years ago. I have no enough time to learn in sculpture class. So the sources for guidance are all from websites.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on July 27, 2008, 04:08:56 AM
And a litte update. A spearman with red broadbrim, chain mail and brassarts. The Chinese character on his back means soldier.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/031-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/033-1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/032-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on July 27, 2008, 04:51:38 AM
And some conceptual sketchs of my future models. Wish you like them.

The fierce hill people.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/034-1.jpg)

The handgunner.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/035-1.jpg)

The general with Chinese style warhammers.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/036-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Soju on July 27, 2008, 04:53:37 AM
Very nice work man.

Painting - there's a little bit of red streaks on the back of his arms.

Sculpting - nice use of Dark Elf and Empire bits and pieces. Interesting armour plates, I would've gone with a more mountain pattern style of armour... but that's just me lol... I really like your work, as always, and it's good to see you're still alive and well!

sj

edit: on the sketches;

very nice stuff again! Some anatomical inaccuracies, but what the hey, they'll all become models anyhow.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on July 27, 2008, 05:16:16 AM
Very nice work man.

Painting - there's a little bit of red streaks on the back of his arms.

Sculpting - nice use of Dark Elf and Empire bits and pieces. Interesting armour plates, I would've gone with a more mountain pattern style of armour... but that's just me lol... I really like your work, as always, and it's good to see you're still alive and well!

sj

edit: on the sketches;

very nice stuff again! Some anatomical inaccuracies, but what the hey, they'll all become models anyhow.

Thank you, my old friend. You are always the first reply for my post and give my plenty of advices. In my opinion, The mountain pattern style of armour is only for general. So this soldier couldn't equip it.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Zak on July 27, 2008, 05:25:46 AM
Dude!! :Ohmy: you are by fare a very good painter plus scupter...........wow  :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on July 27, 2008, 07:28:27 AM
Dude!! :Ohmy: you are by fare a very good painter plus scupter...........wow  :eusa_clap:

Thank you, zak.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Soulcaresser on July 27, 2008, 09:07:22 AM

To Soulcaresser and steveb: I began to practice sculpture two years ago. I have no enough time to learn in sculpture class. So the sources for guidance are all from websites.

Thanks fore the info. Indeed you are doing a great job. And you can also draw very well. Hope to see some off those models :biggriin:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: peterhof on July 27, 2008, 11:30:33 AM
Dam  :ph34r:
I must say that that is one of the best mini's I have seen in a long time and great painting too

 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Dino! on July 27, 2008, 01:22:07 PM
Nice sculpting and painting their. Now if only we could see a full regiment of them.  :-D

I like the drawings, inperticularly the general with the warhammers. One question, what are the fierce hill people gonna be in your army?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on December 30, 2008, 11:42:39 AM
A Cathay general sculpted by my friend ZiFeng.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/498.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/499.jpg)

A little color.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/500.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Dunrik on December 30, 2008, 11:50:43 AM
 :icon_eek: Amazing! A complete army like that would be sooo sweet! Keep it up!

Cheers

Dunrik
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on December 30, 2008, 12:16:53 PM
Your friend should cast that model there are so few good horse and rider models out there fantastic work  :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Johan Willhelm on December 30, 2008, 12:26:30 PM
Profuse apologies that my major source of knowledge on ancient China is reading Romance of the Three Kingdoms, doing Tai Chi and playing Dynasty Warriors but those are:


 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Obi on December 30, 2008, 12:45:09 PM
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/inqdrop.gif)WOW! That is just awesome!(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/inqdrop.gif)

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/inqthumbs.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/inqthumbs.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/inqthumbs.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/inqthumbs.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/inqthumbs.gif)

Did he cast that in resin, or is that just wishful thinking?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Perambulator on December 30, 2008, 01:45:05 PM
 :Ohmy: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: username on December 30, 2008, 03:50:20 PM
wow wow wow. so amazing.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: patsy02 on December 30, 2008, 04:07:45 PM
Your friend is a genius. With a model quality like that he should start an online store.

Quote
Your friend should cast that model there are so few good horse and rider models out there fantastic work

Looking at the colour of the unpainted model, I'd say he's already cast it in resin.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: GamesPoet on December 30, 2008, 04:22:40 PM
Great idea to use the DE bodies with the empire arms for the spearmen! If I get around to modeling some cathayians, this is somethign I might borrow from. :::cheers:::

Also really enjoy the conceptual artwork for the handgunner! :icon_biggrin:

And your friend's general on horseback, outstanding!  I'm sure if this kind of thing has been set up for castings he could make some serious cash on offering a line of models that have thta kid of quality to them.  By the way, what material did he use to sculpt it?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Dino! on December 30, 2008, 06:33:17 PM
HOOOOLLLYYY CRAP!  :Ohmy: :Ohmy: :Ohmy:

That looks just amazing. I seriously can't wait to see this guy fully painted.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: steveb on December 30, 2008, 06:36:25 PM
liuzheng, very excellent work, your friend is very good also.  Do you have more paintings/prints of the soldiers. illustrations like the cavalry one you posted at the begining?  thank you for sharing liuzheng shinshung.  steveb
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on December 31, 2008, 02:16:02 AM
Thanks, my friends. I'm very happy that you like the general. His name is GuanYu, a famous general of Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

My friend ZiFeng is a genius. He plan to complete a series of generals from Romance of the Three Kingdoms.Now, he finished five of them and casted them in metal. His website is http://www.dddhk.com/. If someone is interested in these model, you can contract with him .(wargamechina@gmail.com)

Thanks again.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on December 31, 2008, 07:11:45 AM
The general finished, the next is his horse...

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/501.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: Feanor Fire Heart on December 31, 2008, 12:13:31 PM
wow.  I mean just wow.  you sir have more than skill, more than talent, more than.... i am not sure what the word it for something beyond skill and talent.  I suppose what I am trying to say is GREAT JOB!  :happy: :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire
Post by: liuzheng on January 04, 2009, 02:28:28 AM
To: Feanor Fire Heart, Thank you very much.

Here is the finished general.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/502.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/503.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/504.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/505.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 04, 2009, 02:32:20 AM
BTW, his horse is named red rabbit.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Perambulator on January 04, 2009, 03:02:29 AM
 :Ohmy:  :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: steveb on January 04, 2009, 04:28:08 AM
wo aye red rabbit and general. steveb
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: neverness on January 04, 2009, 04:33:39 AM
Why do I keep wanting to say 'Wed Wabbit?'  :-)

God!---This stuff is just gorgeous! Please don't stop!!!


Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Death on January 04, 2009, 04:45:01 AM
would you be casting and selling these?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Von Kurst on January 04, 2009, 05:02:58 AM
Wonderful!  Amazing figure and an excellent paint job! :::cheers:::

 :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 04, 2009, 08:09:27 AM
 :::cheers::: fantastic job°!

The site of your friend also looks great especially his concubines  :biggriin: and the minotaur is there an english site also where all his products are listed with thumbnails?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Obi on January 04, 2009, 01:13:04 PM
Awesome! And you paint so fast too! It's just mind-blowing.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Merrick on January 04, 2009, 04:30:13 PM
Aw man, that it AWESOME.  :eusa_clap:

It's Guan Yu and Red Hare!  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Union General on January 04, 2009, 06:41:45 PM
Dropped in again to see what's new....
Impressed yet again, especially with the general! Keep up the good work!  :::cheers:::
-The General
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Kaptajn_Congoboy on January 04, 2009, 08:54:53 PM
If GW ever wants to do a Cathay army they sure don't have to look far for sculptors. Impressive!
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 05, 2009, 09:09:08 AM
I'm very happy that all of you like this model. The English version site of my friend is under construction. And other models are only his future plan, sorry... :icon_cry:

Thank you my friends. What I can do for you is to paint more models. Now the next is old general HuangZhong. He was a master of archery, and he is GuangYu's best friend.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/506.jpg)

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/507.jpg)

Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: BAWTRM on January 05, 2009, 10:10:26 AM
I saw that model of the General painted and I thought: "Hey, he looks like Guan Yu! Can't be him though, this army is based on the Ming dynasty."

Glad I'm wrong! :icon_biggrin:

Edit:

I've looked at your frien's site and his stuff looks amazing! I haven't gone in too much detail and I don't see any attached names so I'll see if I can guess the generals.

1) Guan Yu - already knew that
2) Looks like Zhang Fei to me
3) Hmmm, Zhou Yu?
4) Huang Zhong - you also gave this one away
5) Zhao Yun is my guess
6) I think this is Ma Chao

How's my guesswork?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Kiwichris on January 05, 2009, 10:25:19 AM
Geez those are so cool! I remember Dave Taylor (GW studio) making a Cathayan army using the Bretonnian list a while ago, but this stuff is so much better!
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: for_taal on January 05, 2009, 05:28:43 PM
So epic................................................................................................ :Ohmy: :Ohmy: :Ohmy:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Dammanz on January 05, 2009, 08:02:22 PM
BTW, his horse is named red rabbit.

you mean Lu Bu's horse? :wink:

oh yeah that stuff is marvelous, lets see some more foot troops! 
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Merrick on January 05, 2009, 08:07:48 PM
BTW, his horse is named red rabbit.

you mean Lu Bu's horse? :wink:
 

Beat you to it.  :-D :-P
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Dammanz on January 06, 2009, 01:47:22 AM
BTW, his horse is named red rabbit.

you mean Lu Bu's horse? :wink:
 

Beat you to it.  :-D :-P

not really, but if it helps your self esteem

Anyways is that site an Asian only provider or can it send models to the US? I didn't see it on the sight, (although I was distracted by the awesome three kingdom models)

Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Dino! on January 06, 2009, 03:21:07 AM
Wow! A really nice paint job on a really nice miniature. Your friend really makes some nice mini's.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Rodman49 on January 06, 2009, 11:23:51 AM
Okay guys I contacted liuzheng's friend, he sells the models and they are only $10 each retail!!!  Their trade price is $6.  On the other hand we have to make an order of at least $300.

Unfortunately I do not have a business license - however if I may be able to get a local store owner to order them and I might be willing to front the cash for the first order.  After shipping I would expect the price to increase but who would be interested in paying anywhere from $12-24 per model?  I'll be able to get a more definitive price later.

By the way your painting and conversions are excellent liuzheng!
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Bikeman on January 06, 2009, 11:30:00 AM
Congratulations you are amazing
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 07, 2009, 06:48:17 AM
Thanks all of you, my friends.

To BAWTRM: You are very familiar with the Chinese history and Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Your guess work is great, and the correct name of my friend's minis are:
1, GuanYu
2, ZhangFei
3, ZhaoYun
4, HuangZhong
5, MaChao
6, MaChao too in 54mm scale.

To Dammanz: Do you mean LiuBei? LiuBei was the Leader of GuanYu. But his horse was named DiLu.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 07, 2009, 06:50:11 AM
The finished HuangZhong. I try to piant bleak style for this oldman. Wish you like it.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/512.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: BAWTRM on January 07, 2009, 07:58:52 AM
A great look for Huang Zhong! I don't really picture him as someone flashy. Just a grizzled general doing his job, I think the paintjob fits him well.

Two times Ma Chao eh? Cheeky! :icon_wink:

The thing is, I found it really hard when guessing because I thought they both looked like Ma Chao. In the end the one with the most lionesque helmet 'won'.
If I had known it was Ma Chao twice I'd never have picked Zhou Yu for nr. 3. You simply just don't sculpt Guan Yu and Zhang Fei and leave Zhao Yun out! Still missing Liu Bei as the third brother though but as a general he is quite a different style.

Is your friend planning on doing any Wei or Wu generals?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 07, 2009, 08:14:09 AM
A great look for Huang Zhong! I don't really picture him as someone flashy. Just a grizzled general doing his job, I think the paintjob fits him well.

Two times Ma Chao eh? Cheeky! :icon_wink:

The thing is, I found it really hard when guessing because I thought they both looked like Ma Chao. In the end the one with the most lionesque helmet 'won'.
If I had known it was Ma Chao twice I'd never have picked Zhou Yu for nr. 3. You simply just don't sculpt Guan Yu and Zhang Fei and leave Zhao Yun out! Still missing Liu Bei as the third brother though but as a general he is quite a different style.

Is your friend planning on doing any Wei or Wu generals?

Thanks for your comment.

There is a good news that my friend has started to do some Wei generals.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 08, 2009, 03:50:11 AM
Here is the scale comparison shot. A GZ Captain, GuanYu, A GW Captain and A Foundry Knight.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/513.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Stmr5000 on January 08, 2009, 09:27:23 PM
please... I require moar....
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 09, 2009, 02:04:00 PM
The third one, ZhaoYun. He saved his lord's baby from enemy.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/514.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Shadowwolf on January 09, 2009, 02:46:48 PM
HOLY FRIKKIN' MOLEY! (http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/stirdrop.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/wissdrop.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/westdrop.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/middrop.gif)

Those are some AWESOME sculpts! And the painting is MARVELLOUS!

Sigh, I wish Games workshop would hire you on lifetime  :icon_rolleyes: One can dream, can't he?

Keep this up!

Shadowwolf
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Obi on January 09, 2009, 05:41:57 PM
what the wolf said.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 12, 2009, 09:05:18 AM
Thank you, Shadowwolf and Obi. And some update for you.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/515.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 12, 2009, 09:52:48 AM
HOLY FRIKKIN' MOLEY! (http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/stirdrop.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/wissdrop.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/westdrop.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/middrop.gif)

Those are some AWESOME sculpts! And the painting is MARVELLOUS!

Sigh, I wish Games workshop would hire you on lifetime  :icon_rolleyes: One can dream, can't he?

Keep this up!

Shadowwolf


Nothing to add, but I'll join the chorus....
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 12, 2009, 10:15:14 AM
I also join in your work is fantastic once to play against such an army or even better with it if I finally find the millionare widow I have ordered by the big fellow in the sky I will hire me some people like you.  :biggriin:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: GamesPoet on January 12, 2009, 05:21:07 PM
No offense, but ZhaoYun might even pass as a dark elf. :icon_cool:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Dammanz on January 13, 2009, 01:37:50 AM
dude thats sweet, why did you cut off the sword?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Soju on January 14, 2009, 12:34:30 AM
Ahhh saw these on Warseer and I just had to run back here to comment. AWESOME WORK LIU!!!

sj
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 14, 2009, 01:27:23 PM
Thank you my friend above.

To Fandir Nightshade: Wish your dream become true someday. :-D

To GamesPoet: A dark elf is a good idea. maybe I'll try it with next one.

To Dammanz: Because the sword was broken when I paint it, so I prepare add a GW sword instead.

To Soju: Thanks again.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Union General on January 14, 2009, 07:51:25 PM
Impressive...  :-o
Wonderful job on the HuangZong model overall.  :-D
I liked GuanYu as well, but I must say that ZhaoYun is my absolute favorite.  :-D
Keep up the good work!  :::cheers:::
-The General
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Rune on January 14, 2009, 09:06:19 PM
I... I kinda... You know... I mean, what, when, why did I miss something?

I just... You've got to be kidding me.




You've just got to.


You know, be kidding me. I mean, fuck this, I'm quitting painting. I didn't do much of it before, having a year's worth of a brake, but now I'm finished for good. No miniatures for me anymore.



...did I really have to come back to say 'marvelous'? Yeah, I guess I did. Well, enough said, I'd guess.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 22, 2009, 09:41:28 AM
Thank you, Rune and Union General.

And the 3rd one is finished.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/516.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/517.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: BAWTRM on January 22, 2009, 09:56:02 AM
Great work, another stunning paintjob an a deserving mini and that 6th. Ed Swordsman sword works quite well, doesn't look of at all.

Will you also be painting Ma Chao?
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 22, 2009, 11:02:48 AM
Great work, another stunning paintjob an a deserving mini and that 6th. Ed Swordsman sword works quite well, doesn't look of at all.

Will you also be painting Ma Chao?

Thank you, Bawtrm. Ma Chao will be the last one. The next is ZhangFei.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/519.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 22, 2009, 11:53:16 AM
A CG Work.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/518.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on January 22, 2009, 12:25:31 PM
I'm lost for words to describe the awesomeness...
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: steveb on January 22, 2009, 02:54:39 PM
liuzheng, I stand and stare at the moon and cry because I will never reach that high in the sky.  steveb
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 23, 2009, 03:50:38 AM
Thank you, Soth and Steved.

Now ZhangFei is finished, this one maybe the worst of the four.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/520.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/521.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/522.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on January 23, 2009, 07:36:58 AM
no man not the worst of the four, they are all awesome in their own right.  This one just happens to be the simplest, each of them are incredible and if it weren't totally redundant you'd be on the "Mad skills" inspirational thread.  You are totally up there with the St petersburgs on any given day and within taste margins you are totally neck and neck with that horserace.  A tiny critique though and one that may have made this most recent model really stand out, I don't know if china had Buckskin, roan, appaloosa or other coat colors back in the day.  Painting the horse to be a more unusual coat color really helps to make it stand out from the crowd, looking at this one I'm thinking a dark phase chestnut, or an appaloosa with a snowy back and mask.  The dark chestnut with its nearly black hide and reddish highlights in the whithers would really look sharp with this general, matching the warlike image of a chinese Mars.  On the other hand I have almost never seen an appaloosa painted as a model and the snowy patches on the back and rump, combined with the lighter brown colors of the rest of the coat could really help to throw light and pick out detail on the rest of the model.  I know that your painting skiills are totally up to either task, maybe you could try it out on the next model in the series.

Fantastic job on him in anycase
DH
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: BAWTRM on January 23, 2009, 09:04:24 AM
Hmmm, of all the sculpts I think Zhang Fei is indeed the poorest. It's just his whole pose, he looks like he's trying to lift a horse above his head or something. The pose just doesn't really work IMO.

Furthermore your painting style uses stark, rather big highlights. This has worked great on the previous models but not so much for this model. Reasons for this are IMI:

It doesn't work as well on flesh as on armour. Looking at Zhang Fei his skin looks ruddy and patchy. I think several layers of highlights may be needed for him. In contrast his armour looks fine!

The black horse. Black is a hard colour to shade and the blueish grey you use comes out a bot splotchy in contrast to that stark black. this isn't something that was an issue on the previous (lighter coloured) horses. Once again using more highlighting shades will probably work, as might starker borders between the shades. A gloss varnish coat on the horse will also help to give it that 'shiny black horsecoat' look.

I'm already waiting for Ma Chao. :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: patsy02 on January 23, 2009, 11:54:23 AM
He'd look better on foot, standing on top of a dead orc. Or better, an ogre :)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Dammanz on January 24, 2009, 07:40:14 PM
Now ZhangFei is finished, this one maybe the worst of the four.

aww Zheng Fei was my favorite of the tiger generals... :icon_neutral:

oh well its still a awesome models, but you should paint more of those regular troops
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 28, 2009, 08:44:43 AM
Thanks my friend. These days are Chinese Spring Festival, here I send a Chinses well-wishing to all of you.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lz7947/Historic%20Mini/j200721863738.jpg)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 28, 2009, 09:07:00 AM
To der Hurenwiebel: Thanks for your advice about horse. In China, I have only seen and mounted some Mongol horse, so I have no sense about well-bred horse. Your color advice is also very useful, and I will look for some pics in the web to improve my image of horse. Thanks again.

To BAWTRM: Thanks. There is a story about Zhang Fei's pose. After Zhang Fei's lord Liu Bei was defeated by another warlord Chao Cao, Liu Bei had to retreat with a lot of refugees. In order to protect these people, Zhang Fei stood at a strait bridge alone and howled at the chasing enemy. The enemy was frightened by his howl and halted the chase. The mini's pose want to show this story. And thanks for your painting advice.

To patsy02: Thanks. I will deliver your advice to the sculptor.

To Dammanz: Thanks. I will deliver your advice too, because there is no regular soldier in his production.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: steveb on January 28, 2009, 05:04:19 PM
liuzheng, happy new year to you and friends, may good fortune be yours this year and the fields productful. steveb
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on January 29, 2009, 03:09:42 AM
Oh, color variants do not indicate breeding (good bad or indifferent) for a horse, most of the time before the 18th cent horses were bred for the job they were supposed to do rather than what we would call a "breed" today.  Most of the Mongol ponies and chinese horses would be descended from Prezwalski's so, buckskins, duns and their color variants and genetic modifiers could all be possible.  By that same token you're painting models for heroic figures so historically available horse genetics don't really matter, Knock yourself out with some unusual markings and fun coat effects.  Just remember the horse itself can be as much a character as the figure on top of it.

DH 

I almost forgot, Gong hei fat choi!!!
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: liuzheng on January 29, 2009, 10:03:00 AM
To steveb: Thank you very much and happy new year to you and your family.

To der Hurenwiebel: Thanks a lot for your teaching about horse. I should get the equal treatment to the horse and the character. More advices are welcome.
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Beithir Seun on June 13, 2009, 02:06:58 AM
This is an absolutely fantastic thread! Absolutely astounding work liuzheng!

I've actually just been to see the film Red Cliff which is based on the Romance of the Three Kingdoms novel and the generals all look exactly like they do in the film :D

Fantastic stuff, I hope there's more to see soon :)
Title: Re: The Army of Cathay Empire (Jan. 1st, The general finished)
Post by: Stmr5000 on June 14, 2009, 04:03:54 PM
I have to say, if GW does make a Cathay army, they could certainly learn a thing or two from this thread.