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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: Corax13 on May 03, 2012, 03:01:40 PM
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I think I posted this in the wrong section last time, so I am reposting it here...
Hey guys,
I need help figuring out how to best use detachments tactic wise.
The first Empire 8th ed game I played, I used a horde of 40 halberdiers with a war priest and a BSB, supported by two detachments of 10 halberdiers, one on each side. Now, my opponent (VC), charged my first detachment with some cav. and before I had the time to reply with my parent unit and/or supporting units (knights), the detachment lost the fight, broke, got run over and made my knights flee of the table due to their total destruction. Yes, I had the BSB, the steadfast rule, the hatred, etc., but you can still miss a leadership test with all that...
What I'm trying to figure out is how to avoid my opponent jumping on those more vulnerable units first? Especially if I were to use shooters. Should I employ less detachments but with more guys, should I deploy them a bit behind my parent regiment, should I remember the steadfast rule even if I loose 5 guys in one go? Did I answer my own question?
Anyways, I'm open to your ideas...
Corax :ph34r:
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I think detachments have changed a lot. Redirecting is now pretty pointless, them causing panic makes them less effective as sacrificial speedbumps, no auto-flank and flanking being less of a big deal overall in 8th has made the countercharging less important.
The big thing detachments can do nowdays is acting as "shields" for the parent unit, binding up enemies and stalling them thanks to stubborn (and possibly steadfast, depending on how they choose to FAQ it). In short, they are good for keeping the enemy from combo-charging your parent.
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Basicaly, as Nexus said... they suck!
Damn shame they couldn't write some solid rules for them.
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Detachments do have some uses, despite what the above posters have said. They give us a quick and easy way to strip Regeneration, for example. We accomplish that by putting a Priest in the parent unit, having a shooting unit as a detachment, and casting Soulfire. The benefits of the prayer extend to the detachment, which means that you can strip that pesky Regen off the Hydra before you cannon it off the board. ;)
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i agree with rothgar you can effectivly spread buffs across your whole army with proper use of WP and detachments and even thouhg its not an auto flank I still get quite a bit of flanks off. But IMO a detachment of 10 is way to small i normally do a detachment of a min of 20
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If you use 10 halberds as detachment you must make sure that it is not charged first. You can do that a number of ways, but it is really hard with 2 detachments of 10 halberds. They purpuse is to countercharge to the flank but you can provide only one of them a clear possibilty by positionig your parent in an oblique way. I suggest to take only 1 detachment.
I personally use a sword detachment of 15 with my Greatswords. They can be used as temporary anvil or as flanking detachment.
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Detachments do have some uses, despite what the above posters have said. They give us a quick and easy way to strip Regeneration, for example. We accomplish that by putting a Priest in the parent unit, having a shooting unit as a detachment, and casting Soulfire. The benefits of the prayer extend to the detachment, which means that you can strip that pesky Regen off the Hydra before you cannon it off the board. ;)
So let's say a unit of handgunners as a detachment for an anvil like a bus of swordsmen? Interesting choice, albeit static! And you have to spend some precious PD to hopefully get Soulfire off...
And if they were assigned to a parent unit of archers and get the skirmisher rule, would there be a benefit? They sure can't move and shoot so that rule about not having -1bs for moving wouldn't apply...
So far, I just find detachment cumbersome since they take space on your battle line and you have to move them with your parent units to keep them relevant. However, it seems they are a must in 8th ed.
One thing for sure, 10 guys is not enough. 20 guys for 40 "parents" is like a folding horde of 60 since they all share the same rules. Not bad! However, there is still the problem of my opponent charging the unit first.
I don't know, maybe I'm tackling this from the wrong angle...
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I am taking one detachment of around 20 guys in my current lists. Having multiple detachments just seems to get in the way now that you don't auto flank. They are a good way to help guard the flank of a unit though, and can sometimes attract shooting attacks away from stuff that you really care about. Also, and it's hard to do without exposing your own flank, but when you can get a flank attack with a unit that will disrupt the enemy it can be huge.
Although I have not tried it out myself, taking a unit of archers as a detachment as a bunker for a mage seems pretty popular.
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Detachments do have some uses, despite what the above posters have said. They give us a quick and easy way to strip Regeneration, for example. We accomplish that by putting a Priest in the parent unit, having a shooting unit as a detachment, and casting Soulfire. The benefits of the prayer extend to the detachment, which means that you can strip that pesky Regen off the Hydra before you cannon it off the board. ;)
I'm afraid the part in red is not accurate: soulfire is nowhere listed among the benefits detachments get.
You'd have to move the WP to the detachment and cast soulfire from inside the detachment.
(I checked BRB p97, that does not make the detachment to be considered as having moved).(edited after checking army book)
Back to initial question, the use for detachments could be to get the cavalry charge instead of the regiment.
Enemy
heavy
cavalry
ddddd (first detach)
ddddd (2nd detach)
RRRRR (regiment)
RRRRR
RRRRR
RRRRREemy charges 1st detachment.
Likely to destroy it and overrun on 2nd one.
Cannot overrun another time, will remain there.
Regiment gets the charge.
If ever enemy charges directly 2nd one, will not overrun on main regiment.
That could be the idea.
Now, I'm not a pro on maneuvering.
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I'm pretty sure that prayers specifically said they conferred their bonuses to detachments in their description. If not, I have some changes to make on my list.
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Detachments within 3" of the parent are also targets of the Priests spells. Also all psychology characteristics of the parent apply to the detachment including "Hold the Line!" if you have a captain in the parent
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Detachments do have some uses, despite what the above posters have said. They give us a quick and easy way to strip Regeneration, for example. We accomplish that by putting a Priest in the parent unit, having a shooting unit as a detachment, and casting Soulfire. The benefits of the prayer extend to the detachment, which means that you can strip that pesky Regen off the Hydra before you cannon it off the board. ;)
With a war altar you can make the cannon itself flaming, so you can spend those xbow points elsewhere.
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But then you have an Arch Lector on a War Altar, who costs more points than most of our other General options when you factor in his gear. And I'd like to know how you're keeping him within 6" of your cannons and your blocks at the same time.
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You can keep him in range of the Steam Tank and get a Flaming Steam Cannon. That does the job.
I think the Lector on Altar is quite good now, potentially replacing 2 priests and a General, with the bonus banishment and so on. Certainly not the borked over the top nonsense from 7th, but still good value.
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But then you have an Arch Lector on a War Altar, who costs more points than most of our other General options when you factor in his gear. And I'd like to know how you're keeping him within 6" of your cannons and your blocks at the same time.
Of course it doesn't work for every build, but you can at least discount the 90 points (at the very least) you don't have to spend on Xbows. If you skip the priest in the unit as well, the cost difference isn't that big.
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Detachments using the ranks of its parent unit to calculate if it is steadfast is a major tactical advantage to the new empire that almost offsets the ability of the detachment to panic the parent unit (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise).
The other use of a detachment (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise) is to counter charge an impact hit causing unit that charges the parent unit in order to negate the impact hits.
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Detachments using the ranks of its parent unit to calculate if it is steadfast is a major tactical advantage to the new empire that almost offsets the ability of the detachment to panic the parent unit (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise).
Only if the Regiment and Detchment are in the same combat which the OP says they are not... :-)
The other use of a detachment (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise) is to counter charge an impact hit causing unit that charges the parent unit in order to negate the impact hits.
Well the detachment won't get impacted but the Regiment will.... :-)
:eusa_clap: Wrong x2. Bravo! :eusa_clap:
Use of Detachments with Stubborn Greatswords is the Bomb! (7 point Stubborn Swordsmen with a 6+ Parry Save, yes please).
Use of Detachments with anything else is risky as you are now hoping for buffs to extend over, sometimes magic is fickle. New rules for Detachments aren't great but at least they count as Core if you need them to.
FYI, Good opponents always charge the Detachments but hey that's better than the important unit! (Too bad they now cause panic for getting blown up, some might call that a NERF, but I've seen we're not allowed to complain about the new book, so sorry about that...)
Noght
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Noght,
I realize that you seem to live in a customized reality in where only your opinion is correct however let me help you achieve clarity on why I put down "(assuming the FAQ does not state otherwise)" I did it to acknowledge your point of view on this topic. It seems that you are too dense to realize this and instead insist on picking a fight.
Detachments using the ranks of its parent unit to calculate if it is steadfast is a major tactical advantage to the new empire that almost offsets the ability of the detachment to panic the parent unit (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise).
Only if the Regiment and Detchment are in the same combat which the OP says they are not... :-)
The other use of a detachment (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise) is to counter charge an impact hit causing unit that charges the parent unit in order to negate the impact hits.
Well the detachment won't get impacted but the Regiment will.... :-)
:eusa_clap: Wrong x2. Bravo! :eusa_clap:
Use of Detachments with Stubborn Greatswords is the Bomb! (7 point Stubborn Swordsmen with a 6+ Parry Save, yes please).
Use of Detachments with anything else is risky as you are now hoping for buffs to extend over, sometimes magic is fickle. New rules for Detachments aren't great but at least they count as Core if you need them to.
FYI, Good opponents always charge the Detachments but hey that's better than the important unit! (Too bad they now cause panic for getting blown up, some might call that a NERF, but I've seen we're not allowed to complain about the new book, so sorry about that...)
Noght
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Noght,
I realize that you seem to live in a customized reality in where only your opinion is correct however let me help you achieve clarity on why I put down "(assuming the FAQ does not state otherwise)" I did it to acknowledge your point of view on this topic. It seems that you are too dense to realize this and instead insist on picking a fight.
So you need an FAQ to change the rules to fit your world view? That's cool, it's as equally likely that they will "re-write" the Steadfast/Detachment rules to say "count the Regiments ranks for determining Steadfast" (easist and most elegant) or they will say only "Same Combat" (my bet). The "Impact Hit" question is wishful thinking. I'd be happy to be wrong because your Detachment rules are way better than mine are :wink:.
Instead of re-igniting those arguments (you intent methinks, and I of course took the bait happily) you could have answered the OP's question regarding the "proper" use of Detachments, i.e. maybe list building or tactics or postitoning.
So my "Dense" position: Detachments are worse than the old book overall, however detachments with Stubborn Line Holding Greatswords are/can be awesome. Detachments with other Units are a risk but YMMV.
Noght
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I think I posted this in the wrong section last time, so I am reposting it here...
Hey guys,
I need help figuring out how to best use detachments tactic wise.
The first Empire 8th ed game I played, I used a horde of 40 halberdiers with a war priest and a BSB, supported by two detachments of 10 halberdiers, one on each side. Now, my opponent (VC), charged my first detachment with some cav. and before I had the time to reply with my parent unit and/or supporting units (knights), the detachment lost the fight, broke, got run over and made my knights flee of the table due to their total destruction. Yes, I had the BSB, the steadfast rule, the hatred, etc., but you can still miss a leadership test with all that...
What I'm trying to figure out is how to avoid my opponent jumping on those more vulnerable units first? Especially if I were to use shooters. Should I employ less detachments but with more guys, should I deploy them a bit behind my parent regiment, should I remember the steadfast rule even if I loose 5 guys in one go? Did I answer my own question?
Anyways, I'm open to your ideas...
Corax :ph34r:
Just so you know, I interpret the rule as you do with the steadfast being passed onto the detachment based on the parent's ranks even if unengaged. My opponents have no problem with that, but then again I only play friendly games.
I'd say if you failed a leadership test with a steadfast detachment using the Hold the Line! special rule from the BSB plus the reroll then it was mostly a fluke. I think this was a great way to use the detachments and if it weren't for unhappy chance you would've had a sweet flank charge on your turn with a big fat regimental horde.
And possibly, assuming that it wouldn't put them in danger of getting flanked, you could reform the regimental unit to face the enemy unit (and also reposition your detachment) so that you can follow up with a charge and/or countercharge. And, assuming you have the shooting support, this can possibly give you another round to fire on an unengaged unit.
Really these smaller detachments aren't that vulnerable. If your opponent continues to charge them he's going to more often than not end up in a bad spot and would've been better off charging the regimental unit.
Also, don't be shy about charging with a regimental unit and a detachment at the same time. I did this in a recent game and broke a unit of 40 night goblin spearmen with shields and nets with a depleted unit of 13 halberdiers and a detachment of 10 free company thanks to all the extra attacks I got and the fact that he could only net one of my units. Yeah, not as good as a free flank charge, but hey it can surprise your opponent.
Smaller detachments have the benefit of giving you points to put into your regimental unit, but they also increase the chance that your opponent will just blow right through them, and you give up the opportunity for disrupting enemy ranks.
I would keep doing it like that for now, and see how it works out for you over the course of several games. If you still aren't sure of the answer then post again. I don't think you should base your opinions of the new rules based on one isolated incident.
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I think if your detachment is CC (halberdiers, swordsmen, spearmen) then they should be half the size of the parent unit minimum. This allows them to support the parent unit and if need be, act as an independant medium size unit who can hopefully hold its own.
If the detachment is ranged focused, I say small is better. 10 is good as you can have two ranks of 5 and flank if the opportunity arises, but the purpose is to pepper any incoming units with their range to help your parent unit.
I'm going to try a 40 man halberdier unit with 20 man sword detachment and 10 man archer detachment this friday. I'll let people know what I REALLY think of detachments after the battle.
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Thanks La Guerra for bring the thread back on topic.
Yes, I think its possible I forgot the steadfast bonus granted by the parent unit.
There's so many small rules now that it's easy to forget one. Let see, I had:
Steadfast due to the horde,
the general's leadership,
the reroll due to the BSB,
Hold the line, and I still missed it?
It's true though that I AM notoriously unlucky with my dies, although since I left my dour dwarves it seems to be a bit better, but definitely I must have forgotten something.
Anyhow, I'm not giving up, but I do want to know more. That idea about the detachments being in front of the main unit is quite intriguing. Any more manoeuvre ideas?
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I personally prefer the 3x3 detachment when defending a horde. Its (in my opinion) ascetically pleasing and its small size allows it to not block other regiments as they maneuver. With the ability of parent units to pass along ranks for the purposes of steadfast calculations one does not need to make big detachments.
I think I posted this in the wrong section last time, so I am reposting it here...
Hey guys,
I need help figuring out how to best use detachments tactic wise.
The first Empire 8th ed game I played, I used a horde of 40 halberdiers with a war priest and a BSB, supported by two detachments of 10 halberdiers, one on each side. Now, my opponent (VC), charged my first detachment with some cav. and before I had the time to reply with my parent unit and/or supporting units (knights), the detachment lost the fight, broke, got run over and made my knights flee of the table due to their total destruction. Yes, I had the BSB, the steadfast rule, the hatred, etc., but you can still miss a leadership test with all that...
What I'm trying to figure out is how to avoid my opponent jumping on those more vulnerable units first? Especially if I were to use shooters. Should I employ less detachments but with more guys, should I deploy them a bit behind my parent regiment, should I remember the steadfast rule even if I loose 5 guys in one go? Did I answer my own question?
Anyways, I'm open to your ideas...
Corax :ph34r:
Just so you know, I interpret the rule as you do with the steadfast being passed onto the detachment based on the parent's ranks even if unengaged. My opponents have no problem with that, but then again I only play friendly games.
I'd say if you failed a leadership test with a steadfast detachment using the Hold the Line! special rule from the BSB plus the reroll then it was mostly a fluke. I think this was a great way to use the detachments and if it weren't for unhappy chance you would've had a sweet flank charge on your turn with a big fat regimental horde.
And possibly, assuming that it wouldn't put them in danger of getting flanked, you could reform the regimental unit to face the enemy unit (and also reposition your detachment) so that you can follow up with a charge and/or countercharge. And, assuming you have the shooting support, this can possibly give you another round to fire on an unengaged unit.
Really these smaller detachments aren't that vulnerable. If your opponent continues to charge them he's going to more often than not end up in a bad spot and would've been better off charging the regimental unit.
Also, don't be shy about charging with a regimental unit and a detachment at the same time. I did this in a recent game and broke a unit of 40 night goblin spearmen with shields and nets with a depleted unit of 13 halberdiers and a detachment of 10 free company thanks to all the extra attacks I got and the fact that he could only net one of my units. Yeah, not as good as a free flank charge, but hey it can surprise your opponent.
Smaller detachments have the benefit of giving you points to put into your regimental unit, but they also increase the chance that your opponent will just blow right through them, and you give up the opportunity for disrupting enemy ranks.
I would keep doing it like that for now, and see how it works out for you over the course of several games. If you still aren't sure of the answer then post again. I don't think you should base your opinions of the new rules based on one isolated incident.
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Anyone thought of going 60+ for the parent unit with a detachment of 30? that's a unit in itself!
60 spears is 300pts, you could horde them and take a detachment of 30 halbs and horde them too :) with the right buffs could be great fun, Don't feel we'll see this below about 3000pts though...
(NOTE: don't insert/restart spears vs halbs arguement here)
I like the thought of horde to the front with WP + horde to the flank on the countercharge :D horribly unweildly, but.....
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I'm pretty sure that prayers specifically said they conferred their bonuses to detachments in their description. If not, I have some changes to make on my list.
:icon_redface:
My bad! They do.
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What I'm trying to figure out is how to avoid my opponent jumping on those more vulnerable units first? Especially if I were to use shooters.
Honestly? No idea. When I asked the same question, the usual response was akin to "L2P Noob", and as you see, people would rather debate all kinds of fiddly rules details or the merits of flaming crossbows, War Altars or Steam Tanks than to give you a sufficiently detailed idea about how to protect a detachment from a cavalry charge. Okay, Calisson is an exception.
One of the problems is that parent + 1-2 dets + WP + Captain + a few magic items = easily 600+ points for this "brigade". Does it really make much sense to assume the opposition has only one single unit for 600-700 points? Sure, some do, but many don't. Even a 500 point deathstar could easily have some support. So how do we protect us from multiple charges? And what's the backup plan when the WP dies on the turn you're charged?
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With detachments I tend to not use them due to the charge problems etc. best bet is to let them be charged and work out how to get them to stick. Snooty units become detachments for me out of ease if I am taking 10 handgunners anyway I might as well have them as a detachment they get bonuses where they wouldn't if on their own.
Try throwing the detachments ahead of your force as a speed bump then put effort into them dealing with the enemy. Once the enemy break through they are depleted and this your fresh mainline units can deal with them with a slight advantage. It may be easier than tricky manoeuvring which would come to nought against a decent opponent.
A
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I have tried using detachments in several different ways, sizes, formations, and unit types with the new book.
I am finding that each new list I make starts moving more and more towards how I used to use detachments: in 5 man re-directors and in shooty bunkers for my mage.
The main reason is not the new rules- it keeps coming back to math. Point for point, I can find better uses in spending them on other toys or in creating another unit. Our troops (and other toys) are just too expensive to create a 25-30 man detachment to go along with that 40-50 troop block.
Because like LSP points out- any smart opponent knows how to jam up your detachment and prevent the sandwich. The points your opponent spends on these re-directors/harassers is certainly cheaper than your detachment. And, if what hit your detachment costs more than it, you are probably removing those points in the near future- while your opponent has the parent unit tied up.
The best combo I found is a halberd detachment with my Greatsword block. The GS hold the line while the stubborn detachment protects their flank or gets in on the action. In the end though- I will likely just remove them for more Greatswords. The jury is still out.
:unsure:
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I might be wrong here, but a detachment gaining Steadfast from an unengaged regimental unit is a pretty creative interpretation. Steadfast isn't a rule you have by default. It applies to units at the end of a combat phase. A unit can't be Steadfast if it isn't in combat (well, Stubborn units can, but that's a different rule altogether). Thus, an unengaged regimental unit cannot pass Steadfast to its detachments because it doesn't have the rule.
On the subject of flaming (and fabulouth (said in a high note and a lisp at the end)) handgunners or crossbows. I like the idea but my main concern is that they don't pack the punch to wound the monster in the first place. The main purpose of this tactic is to combat hydras, right? if we start with 10 crossbows, BS 3, shooting at long range (usually the case), 3.3333... shots will hit. S4 vs T5 means that normally 1 of those shots will wound and then the hydra has a 6+ Sv. Sure, we only need to put one wound on it, but it's still a gamble. T5 is really the edge of where this tactic is at all possible. Using it to combat trolls or regenerating ogres is much more viable though.
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... they don't pack the punch to wound the monster in the first place.
Probably much easier to throw Soulfire off a WAlter near a Stank and call it day.
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40 man unit of crossbows/ gunners with 2x 20man detachments. Take the charge = stand and shoot goodness
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Are you aware how impossibly large that formation is? It comes in at somewhere around 86 cm wide, 34" for you who haven't quite left those quaint medeival ages yet. :wink:
Is is doubtful whether or not parts of that formation would even see what you want to shoot at.
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I like the idea but my main concern is that they don't pack the punch to wound the monster in the first place. The main purpose of this tactic is to combat hydras, right? if we start with 10 crossbows, BS 3, shooting at long range (usually the case), 3.3333... shots will hit. S4 vs T5 means that normally 1 of those shots will wound and then the hydra has a 6+ Sv.
The Hydra comes with a 4+ AS I believe, and a unit of Shades in front makes it pretty safe.
40 man unit of crossbows/ gunners with 2x 20man detachments. Take the charge = stand and shoot goodness
Is it a good idea to spend 800 points to hurt a 175 point monster? As I said before, nearly every opponent will have more than one unit. It'd be a rare tactical masterpiece if everything else is dead or occupied.
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I had accounted for S4 and AP (for handgunners) as an optimal scenario. Thus the 6+ instead of 4+. 10 guys are unlikely to cut it. Increase the detachment to 12 and the numbers are in our favour, if ever so slightly. It is an interesting tactic and worth considering. Without in-depth knowledge of our book, I reckon most people will let Soulfire pass on an unengaged unit, thinking it is just a poor trick to draw out dispell dice or deter a charge on that unit.
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I might be wrong here, but a detachment gaining Steadfast from an unengaged regimental unit is a pretty creative interpretation. Steadfast isn't a rule you have by default. It applies to units at the end of a combat phase. A unit can't be Steadfast if it isn't in combat (well, Stubborn units can, but that's a different rule altogether). Thus, an unengaged regimental unit cannot pass Steadfast to its detachments because it doesn't have the rule.
You are certainly not wrong: "a pretty creative interpretation" is the least one can say.
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I might be wrong here, but a detachment gaining Steadfast from an unengaged regimental unit is a pretty creative interpretation. Steadfast isn't a rule you have by default. It applies to units at the end of a combat phase. A unit can't be Steadfast if it isn't in combat (well, Stubborn units can, but that's a different rule altogether). Thus, an unengaged regimental unit cannot pass Steadfast to its detachments because it doesn't have the rule.
You're not wrong. Creative is an apt description methinks. The changing of the Detachment rule regarding flank access, supporting charges and causing panic make them more risky than in the past. My strategy for using them as redirectors/speed bumps will change. Which is why HHG mentioned the GS detachments as a solid choice because at least you get the 8 LD test, not great but it's better than nothing.
Noght
p.s. Fidelis and I are posting exact responses... :-)
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15+ swordsmen as a detachment to greatswords works great, but it's doubtful if I'll use close combat detachments for any other units. I don't find it hard at all to get flank charges with them. Place the detachment an inch or two back from the front of the regimental unit and about the same distance to the side. If the regimental unit get charged, the detachment is in the attacker's flank zone more often than not.
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The flank charge is a bit of an issue in this edition especially since detachments can cause panic unlike the previous edition. Assuming that detachments are steadfast even if the parent is not in combat this should not be too bad (at least in close combat), however if the detachment is not steadfast that means any opponent worth his or her salt would charge the detachment and get an easy victory (no standard, maximum of half the models of the parent unit) and if lucky panic the parent unit.
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Detachments do have some uses, despite what the above posters have said. They give us a quick and easy way to strip Regeneration, for example. We accomplish that by putting a Priest in the parent unit, having a shooting unit as a detachment, and casting Soulfire. The benefits of the prayer extend to the detachment, which means that you can strip that pesky Regen off the Hydra before you cannon it off the board. ;)
True but who cares about the Hydra now? A unit of Demi-gryphs with the flame banner are going to tear through a hydra like its a wet paper bag! The 2nd hydra can easily be handled by the cannon/HBVG combo or even a stank!
Empire no longer fears the hydra like before!
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Not going to refight the Steadfast/Detachment/Regiment thing but I'd suggest you talk about this with you opponent ahead of time to make sure you're both on the same page.
If you are building a list for a Tourney, you better contact the TO. You might be in for a surprise otherwise, just saying.
Noght
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I rarely feared Hydras, more a HPA, and I don't see detachments helping out with those. The DGK's could at least deal it a few wounds with the banner...but I digress.
Yes, I believe it isn't easy to adequately protect detachments from getting charged. Placing them further back is one option - and as with everything, it will sometimes work or and sometimes not. Using terrain is an option but that can go both ways when you suddenly cannot charge anymore. Blading the parent is an option but it only works for one child, and might be inadvisable when there's more than two enemy units around.
I personally think that the best idea is to have only either very small dets as throw-away diverters or single large'ish stubborn ones - crown and GS come to mind. Slightly angled towards their parent, it should be irrelevant who is charged, and the threat of the parent in the flank might already be enough to force your opponent's hand. The obvious counter to this would be a staggered advance to again threaten the flank of your parent but not everybody and every faction can and will pull that off - and in such a situation you could charge in yourself.
Holding a detachment back could lead to unwanted difficulties when you are trying to combo-charge though...
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One tactic for flank charge is to position your detachment angled at 45degrees slightly in front of your regimental unit. If your opponent charges the dettachment (he still needs to charge the front of the detachment), then he has to "close the door" and expose a flank to your parent unit. If he charges the parent unit, then you countercharge to its flank.
If he holds, then you shoot him one more turn.
Of course, this can only be done if there are no enemy units that may flank-charge your detachemnt.
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*edit Nothing to see, keep moving
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The drawing is very clear, thanks Syn. I still believe that you get a better chance of flank charge if you do what I said above.
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Damn! I can't see the pictures!!!!
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Fascinating! Shows how much deployment of the detachments come into play.
If you stayed back an inch but with a slight \ angle, would it allow you to charge the flank of the enemy?
Then again, whenever you angle a defensive unit, you commit yourself (not as much with the muso free reform now, but still an issue with shooters).
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The drawing is very clear, thanks Syn. I still believe that you get a better chance of flank charge if you do what I said above.
Yeah, I think yours will work if GW rules that the detachment gets Steadfast from it's parent's ranks even if the parent is unengaged. If not, they can charge the detachment, kick its ass, and probably make it run (that's what happened to mine) and possibly pursue out of the parent's charge arc.
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Yeah, I think yours will work if GW rules that the detachment gets Steadfast from it's parent's ranks even if the parent is unengaged. If not, they can charge the detachment, kick its ass, and probably make it run (that's what happened to mine) and possibly pursue out of the parent's charge arc.
It can work fine if the detachment is stubborn (which may be achieved by different means), it is not necessary to invoke the steadfast rule.
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Nice pics Syn! Just remember it only matters what the front rank positioning, if a majority of the front rank only is in the flank then you can charge the flank legally.
Noght
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Nice pics Syn! Just remember it only matters what the front rank positioning, if a majority of the front rank only is in the flank then you can charge the flank legally.
Good point Noght, then you get to flank-charge in any of the situations shown in the pictures.
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Ok, for some reason I got it in my head it was the majority of the models -- i'll change everything later.
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Ok, for some reason I got it in my head it was the majority of the models -- i'll change everything later.
Me too, you learn something every day :::cheers:::
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Ok, for some reason I got it in my head it was the majority of the models -- i'll change everything later.
Me too, you learn something every day :::cheers:::
Yep only the front rank matters.
Noght