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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: BBorN on September 17, 2014, 01:00:44 PM
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So I have brought up this idea a few times on here and had a lot of great feedback. I thought I would provide my own feedback on how it has been working for me, and kindly ask for more of your helpful feedback. I should note I am not playing fluffy lists - my opponents go all out in their lists so I have done the same.
My lists have been from 2400-3000 points. Fought against demons woc skaven vampires orcs and empire. I bring typically the following general list :
Karl Franz
L4 heavens on horse
BSB on horse 1+/4+ and charmed shield
Sometimes a L1 heavens wizard with scroll
Core is a block of 12-14 IC knights and multiple other small 5 man knight units
Special is 2 units of 4 demigryph knights. Maybe a unit of pistoliers/outriders
Rare is double stank (3k I added a helblaster)
I have had great success with the list so far. More wins than losses to be sure and KF has slapped silly just about everything he touches. I love woc characters that think heir 3+ ward save and reroll 1s makes them unbeatable. Multiple occasions where they failed one roll and took 2-3 wounds. Very satisfying. My main objective is to get knights into the flank of large infantry units. Sometimes I get it big knight bus into the flanks sometimes I send them into the front since S4/5 doesn't scare me while I maneuver to get DGKs or stanks into their flanks. Many times I'll have DGKs in their front and knights to the side. Always challenge with KF against 1 wound infantry. Always. Very few characters out there scare me more than I scare them. 18" ld 10 is a godsend. Covers my whole army easily so things like spirit leech or the odd break test aren't issues anymore.
However even with the success. I feel like something is always missing to bring me to the next level. I can't put my finger on it. I welcome any thoughts you have to share on the subject.
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However even with the success. I feel like something is always missing to bring me to the next level. I can't put my finger on it. I welcome any thoughts you have to share on the subject.
You could reduce the two steam tank crutch to one and instead bring a captasus or two. The bring alot of utility to the table and fits your list well! You could also add in the odd outrider unit. They usually pull alot of attention and can hurt alot if left unattended.
Your current lists is kind of a one trick pony and this might add some flavour. I know I would get bored playing your current list. Also, in a fast list like yours, the hellblaster doesn't add much.
Just my 2 cent.
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Yes indeed. This is a mean army against "typical" armies with units of troops.
But if you went up against something like a dark elf fast cav/max flyers list you wouldn't get into combat ever and you'd get combo charged to the swamp. Probably need to add some flexibility and agility like thomsen pointed out.
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Thanks for the advice - I have never played against dark elves and only saw high elves once. I have no idea what to expect there. How will a single captasus help against dark elves?
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Nothing helps against Dark Elves.
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Nothing helps against Dark Elves.
unfortunately I have to agree
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With end times we get 50% lords. This means one amazing thing: we can take balthasar Gelt and Karl Franz at the same time.
I want to play this so badly! Also, while we're at it, why not take Ludwig too for the 18" bsb rule. And you put him and Karl in a unit, they get that weird rule where Ludwig can give Karl look out sir in close combat.
Anyone else want to try this? Stick em in a unit of 10+ reiksguard in the middle of the lines and say bring it
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With end times we get 50% lords. This means one amazing thing: we can take balthasar Gelt and Karl Franz at the same time.
I want to play this so badly! Also, while we're at it, why not take Ludwig too for the 18" bsb rule. And you put him and Karl in a unit, they get that weird rule where Ludwig can give Karl look out sir in close combat.
Anyone else want to try this? Stick em in a unit of 10+ reiksguard in the middle of the lines and say bring it
And have a T test spell cast on them and see them all die in one turn. :closed-eyes:
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Only half of them....but sadly with Franz among them.
:ph34r:
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i know its fluffy, besides im talking about them going against nagash only which means that they likely wouldnt have much T test stuff to kill you with.
plus you got gelt running around blowing stuff up! imagine if you turned nagash into gold? haha
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Incredibly funny as the low ld undead around would have to test for stupidity
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they are immune to psychology so they ignore panic tests and stupidity tests and frenzy checks and any test like that. they literally never take an ld test except for spell damage based of ld.
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Incorrect.
BRB p. 71:
If the majority of the models in a unit have the Immune to Psychology rule, the unit automatically passes all Panic, Fear and Terror tests it has to take. It should be noted that they have to take Break tests (and other Leadership tests) normally — being stoic does not necessarily make a warrior entirely heedless of mortal danger.
Note also BRB p. 70:
To represent their fighting fury and lack of self-preservation instincts, Frenzied troops have the Extra Attack and Immune to Psychology special rules.
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Yes this edition Undead can be stupid......and hating as we all know.
(http://s2.static.dosefun.com/images/2012/04/23/haters-gonna-hate-boy_1335181444239619.jpg)
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ohhh sorry, so undead can: fail frenzy checks (duh), fail stupidity checks, and get hatred? interesting.
too bad ItP doesnt protect you from stupidity, thatd be helpful.
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Most of the undead should in fact always suffer from Stupidity - they have no brain.
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It's actually been a rather painful lesson for my Tomb King friend. Ramhotep the Visionary was the Golden Boy of the army for a while, for giving armour re-rolls to a random construct unit and for giving his unit Frenzy as well as Hatred.
Since Undead rarely bother with a BSB, that Frenzy's cost him quite a number of times.
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so an undead BSB is literally only used for stupidity checks and frenzy checks?
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No you also have less crumbly crumb around.
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hahaha crumbly crumb...
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so an undead BSB is literally only used for stupidity checks and frenzy checks?
Swift reforms, restraining pursuit, redirecting...everything but panic and break checks.
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and fear and terror. but yeah. oh well.
karl franz with an 18" ld 10 bubble would be epic. i want to use him so bad. only downside is not having ASF so if you face a vampire or an elf you might be worried.
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Supplement him with two level 2 light mages and a cheap bsb and you can make him work at 2500 points. Put him on a horse and into a unit of 10 cheap vanilla knights. He doesnt need elite reiksguard to babysit him.
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No vampire or elf would want to go toe to toe with KF. One wound gets through and they could be dead. That's pretty high risk.
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plus vamp lord costs more than karl. and if he dies you probably crumble.
im just saying you use karl to kill characters, monsters whatever, and when you face ASF characters you just gotta irresistable force birona's timewarp and boom now they probably take 3 hits that they have to save or they die (d3 wounds each)
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A Blender Lord has good chances to take Karl down before he strikes with Ghal Maraz. If you grant him ASF or ws 10 I 10 (denying re rolls to hit reducing 98 % hits to 50 % hits) will let the Vampire lord reconsider.
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I'm trying to figure out if in a horde of greatswords (with WP and light magic support) Karl couldn't be crushing on foot. Thoughts? He just seems like such a good beater and helps compensate for our normally crap character issues.
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A Blender Lord has good chances to take Karl down before he strikes with Ghal Maraz. If you grant him ASF or ws 10 I 10 (denying re rolls to hit reducing 98 % hits to 50 % hits) will let the Vampire lord reconsider.
In all fairness, Blender Lord scares nearly any character.
I am rather impressed with Lietpold the Black though. In my games with him he's held off some surprisingly powerful enemy lords, though his S4 still fails him marvellously.
Mounted Valten's probably the best CC character we have, but Karl's 18" Ld 10 bubble is possibly more useful than a 6" Stubborn Bubble (Stubble?)
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Karl on mounted warhorse is the best deal between having a very tough and hitty lord. He is also very good to deal with stuff like Demigryphs, Skullcrushers and the like...oh and he loves fighting ogres.
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Karl on mounted warhorse is the best deal between having a very tough and hitty lord. He is also very good to deal with stuff like Demigryphs, Skullcrushers and the like...oh and he loves fighting ogres.
But he still refuses to use a shield, so he will not have the 1+ armor save he deserves.
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yeah 18" LD 10 bubble is really good for empire. i think maybe a unit of greatswords with karl on foot might work. its hard to say. his smaller frontage would be nice.
you literally only need to fear a vamp lord. i dont think dark elves or high elves actually do much blender lord stuff and every other race wont have ASF at least.
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The main reason KF on foot doesn't work well is he is reduced to only a 4+ save that way
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yeah but armor saves are kind of whatever anyway, plus he kills good enough not to be too worried about it. keep him in a bunker, pass out the LD10 bubble, then send him against minor characters/unit champs and maybe you can do him on foot.
whatd be perfect is KF + deathclaw if he got combined profiles (combine W and T and saves and such).
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Hmm, I dunno. Karl's got a scary weapon, but any CC character worth his salt will be ignoring his armour save and will have a decent ward of their own.
I'd still be wary of sending him up against a Chaos Lord, or an Elf. Heck, a Beastlord could be a problem, and Doombulls can be very scary.
Blenderlord's possibly the only build that is very likely to kill him though, on account of attacking first and getting additional attacks in. Every other character might not finish him off before he gets a chance to swing - though he could easily miss or bounce off a ward.
I think he should be OK, but best to be wary of the powerhouses just in case.
EDIT: Malekith could ruin him, but he's a bit hit and miss...
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Not even combat characters but rank and file troops will rip him apart on foot...also you won´t get him where you want him. Fighty character always always always at the very least on a horse. There is no advantage at all to put him on foot. Horse and a unit of at least 10 knights...who are soooo dirt cheap it makes little to no sense to put him in infantry.
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oh the other thing you can do is no matter what unit hes in basically only be 3 wide, just command in front and have karl in the second rank. when the vamp lord or elf kills your cham (only target) karl slides into base contact then swings and kill the vamp in one round of combat.
if the guy doesnt go after the champ and just does R and F then you can swing once as a supporting attack and do that for a few turns to scare him.
if he challenges you accept with the champ i guess or you decline im not sure.
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Or the enemy lord simply kills a lot of R&F, and since you have no ranks, you have no rank bonus, and cannot be steadfast either. With the negative combat score, you lose your Breaktest, flee and get overrun. Bye, bye, Karl Franz. You certainly need something that makes your unit Stubborn.
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Thats why the unit you are in is Reiksguard, duh hahaha.
that or you can be on foot in a unit of like 15 ish greatswords, be in the second rank at the start and attack over people
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Ah yes, I forgot about the Reiksguard.
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reiksguard in a unit of about 12 that are 3 wide with a warrior priest and karl franz is a great idea. or if you have enough points take ludwig swarzhelm. 18" bsb effect is unique to empire. we should be using this guy more! plus in a unit with karl you can sacrifice ludwig to save karl with a 2+ look out sir in close combat.
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I love Ludwig...and his beard. :biggriin:
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hahahah ludwig looks like a dwarf
but remember! he gets to give KF a look out sir in combat, thats pretty cool! watch the look on some blender lords face when he does 7 wounds to karl franz that ignore armor saves and he doesnt die! hahaha sure ludwig would die and you prob take like 2 wounds but still, you got one wound left so you can wack him in the face with ghal maraz and honestly show me any monster/character that can survive 4 attacks from karl with ghal maraz on average doing something like 6 wounds (without ward) on average killing any thing with 3 wounds even with a 1+ 4++ and any toughness
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hahahah ludwig looks like a dwarf
but remember! he gets to give KF a look out sir in combat, thats pretty cool! watch the look on some blender lords face when he does 7 wounds to karl franz that ignore armor saves and he doesnt die! hahaha sure ludwig would die and you prob take like 2 wounds but still, you got one wound left so you can wack him in the face with ghal maraz and honestly show me any monster/character that can survive 4 attacks from karl with ghal maraz on average doing something like 6 wounds (without ward) on average killing any thing with 3 wounds even with a 1+ 4++ and any toughness
Is this based on math or on luck ?
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math. ludwig essentially gives you 2 2+ ward saves for it to get allocated to him, them karl still has a healthy 2+ 4++ and dont forget MR3 for spell protection. so ludwig takes the first 2 wounds then your ward save can save you from most of the rest of the attacks most of the time.
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math. ludwig essentially gives you 2 2+ ward saves for it to get allocated to him, them karl still has a healthy 2+ 4++ and dont forget MR3 for spell protection. so ludwig takes the first 2 wounds then your ward save can save you from most of the rest of the attacks most of the time.
Ludwig can only take one wound per turn for Karl, on average a blender lord will do one wound to Ludwig and two to Karl, survive Karl's attacks (with the ward that he absolutely has), then kill them both in the next round of combat. Risky for both characters but on average the vamp walks away with almost 700 vps and your command in the toilet.
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reiksguard in a unit of about 12 that are 3 wide with a warrior priest and karl franz is a great idea. or if you have enough points take ludwig swarzhelm. 18" bsb effect is unique to empire. we should be using this guy more! plus in a unit with karl you can sacrifice ludwig to save karl with a 2+ look out sir in close combat.
Just to clarify, any bsb on a large target grants an 18" leadership bubble as well.
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do you know how many large target BSBs are feasible? very few. you wanna put your noble BSB on a griffon? yeah that does not work.
oh okay, and i still think you got 4 attacks, 3 hits, auto wound, no armor, you get a 4++ but mathematically you fail 1.5 of them then you take 1.5*d3 wounds. so on average you do 3 wounds to a guy with a 4++ ward. so 60ish% of the time you kill the vamp in one round of combat, or you kill any 3 wound character in 1 round
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do you know how many large target BSBs are feasible? very few. you wanna put your noble BSB on a griffon? yeah that does not work.
oh okay, and i still think you got 4 attacks, 3 hits, auto wound, no armor, you get a 4++ but mathematically you fail 1.5 of them then you take 1.5*d3 wounds. so on average you do 3 wounds to a guy with a 4++ ward. so 60ish% of the time you kill the vamp in one round of combat, or you kill any 3 wound character in 1 round
I didn't say it was feasable (though I do run a griffon bsb in my high elf army and don't think it's that bad. How many games have you played with it?) I was simply pointing out that other armies have access to it. Also one might argue that an expensive bsb with a 2+ save who has to take hits for Karl who is much better protected vs death snipes or rank and file isn't going to work that well. Maybe that's why you rarely see Ludwig on the field.
4 Attacks hitting on 4's is 2 hits, unless this is a perfect situation where a vamp lord has decided to charge into your knight unit with a hurricanum behind it. Karl will also bash most things if he has Timewarp or Speed of Light or Savage Beasts.
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i have played several although honestly they were all against cannons.
i think you dont see ludwig because he cant be on foot. if he could be on foot and simply hide in a bunker thenn youd be fine :) but on a horse you kind of feel obligated to charge in with him
a 3k empire list that wants to be all cav should probably try having karl and ludwig. because you are gonna put these guys in your big inner circle unit and charge in guns ablazing.
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If the BSB on griffon is your only cannon target it's going to be tough, but if you take multiple monsters or just hide the bsb you should be able to kill the cannons quickly with high elf shooting or chaff and then get in the game. Is it the best option? No. Is it possible to get an 18" bsb bubble with armies other than empire? Yes.
Maybe you should include an infantry version of Ludwig in your revised Empire book. :icon_wink:
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infantry ludwig and infantry balthasar gelt would both be very welcome in the competitive field. maybe i will! you know eltharion can choose not to ride a griffin, so can karl franz. why not these two?
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Let us know how he goes, for tournament players it's not going to be an option unless gw changes it in the next book!
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i think empires regular characters are not good enough compared to every other army, yes they are cheap, but maybe special characters can give you what you need.
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Hmm... I dont even think they are cheap lol..
60 pts Captain vs 70 pts DE Master? 10 pts for reroll everything + strike first vs cold blooded....
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Yes, Empire characters are not really cheap.
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yeah captains arent cheap but warrior priests are. itd be more balanced if all of our characters were 20 pts cheaper each but still, what i meant by cheap is that they dont do much combat wise.
elf nobles compared to our captains is a joke. just as greatswords vs white lions is a joke
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warrior priest are cheap?? What? they are only 5 pts cheaper than captains and have ofcourse less attacks. So you mean it is cheap to give hatred to a unit?
Like free for elves and it cost us about (60-80)/number of models ? that is not cheap!
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Blender vamp with ASF red fury all the goodies and +2 S sword vs KF:
Vamp gets 5 attacks, hits 4.44 times with reroll. Wounds on 2s doing 3.7 wounds. Karl has 6+ armor and 4+ ward, so takes 1.54 wounds. Round up to 2 wounds ( barely) gives 2 more attacks doing 1.47 wounds. KF takes .62 wounds.
KF has a very very slim chance of being killed first.
If he lives he does 2 wounds, one gets through and you have a 33% chance of killing the vamp
The point isn't that KF WILL kill any character it's that he has a very good chance of rollif high on that d3. Do you want to take the chance your whole army will crumble after that?
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Another thing I noticed with empire is that people fear certain units more than they should and others less than they should. They fear charging a greatsword horde or a flagellant horde, they don't fear halberdiers. Most people aren't used to seeing what 50 halberdiers with hatred wagons prayers and buff magic a"l do when combined together at the same time and charge in and get wrecked.
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i wish I played your opponents. Mine clearly see Greatswords for the T3 4+ armor save, strikes last points sink they really are. Granted, my last time using them was against HE, and their elite infantry laugh at them.
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Seriously, greatswords cost as much as an elf with less stats and less crazy awesome special rules. Its getting to a point where even if a luminark gave you +1 T and a hurricanum gave you +1 S we'd still be behind the elites for what it costs to field an empire infantry force.
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I only used Karl Franz in one way when I played my Empire (looking to rebuild it from scratch). I simply stuck him on a Barded Warhorse w/Ghal Marz and stuck him with a unit of either 12x IC Knights w/Lances, Shields, and a Mounted WP, or one of my personal favorites, I stick him with a unit of 28x IC Knights w/Lances, Shields and a WP as well in a 10x3 Horde Cavalry formation =D. Both are good options as it gives me a hard hitting unit, as I feel that Greatswords are a waste of points as they die to easily and just aren't worth it.
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Greatswords were made to be super expensive because they said oh no we can't hand out that much stubborn to detachments!
But seriously because empire came out early in 8th before the elf books all came out. If they redid empire tomorrow i'm completely sure that all our infantry would be cheaper or get like a massive boost to special rules.
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I ran Karl Franz once, during a 3-player-per-side mega battle along two tables.
36" radius of Ld10 was awesome.
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KF on deathclaw would totally work in a 5k game. you could decently protect him. that or put him on a horse in a knight bunker.
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KF on deathclaw would totally work in a 5k game. you could decently protect him. that or put him on a horse in a knight bunker.
Or allow us to purchase armour for our griffons... :roll:
The model clearly has armor on the chest, but has no kind of save.
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The armour is ceremonial - just like the armour of the war horses dragging the War Altar/wand wagons. :icon_wink:
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The armour is ceremonial - just like the armour of the war horses dragging the War Altar/wand wagons. :icon_wink:
War altar and the wagons have a 5+ armour save, representing the horses and "barding", albeit its not marked on the profile.
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BRB p. 86:
Chariots have a fixed armour save, as detailed in their army list entry. Such an armour save takes into account the hardiness of the chariot, the armour worn by the crew and any barding on the mounts (but barding still slows the model down).
The WA/wand wagon mounts do not have any barding. Note that, as a result, the WA and wand wagon do not suffer -1 to Movement either.
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That is why I wrote "barding", because I imagine that's how the 5+ armour is justified.
But anyway, giving armour to the griffon would make it actually playable, maybe 6+ scaly skin and an option to purchase fullplate armour?
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if the griffin could get a 3+ or 4+ armor save cheaply then thatd be nice but it wouldnt help vs cannons.
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Nothing, expect wards help against cannons. I understand why a griffon wont have a ward save, but I don't understand why it can't be given armour.
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I think its stupid that there are things in the warhammer world with S10 but nothing with T10. literally 99% of things are T6 or less and there are tons of units who can get S6 to deal with all of the toughest shiit in the world.
griffins should be T7. Dragons T9. stuff like that.
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I think its stupid that there are things in the warhammer world with S10 but nothing with T10. literally 99% of things are T6 or less and there are tons of units who can get S6 to deal with all of the toughest shiit in the world.
griffins should be T7. Dragons T9. stuff like that.
Well, the casket of souls has T10 but I get the idea. They should have more and different toughness monsters. T7 or T8 Giants with more wounds might actually be worthwhile.
Oh, and with all the dragon armor, Dragonhelm, etc. 2+ ward saves v flaming, a dragon should have a ward against flaming too.
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I think its stupid that there are things in the warhammer world with S10 but nothing with T10. literally 99% of things are T6 or less and there are tons of units who can get S6 to deal with all of the toughest shiit in the world.
griffins should be T7. Dragons T9. stuff like that.
Well, the casket of souls has T10 but I get the idea. They should have more and different toughness monsters. T7 or T8 Giants with more wounds might actually be worthwhile.
Oh, and with all the dragon armor, Dragonhelm, etc. 2+ ward saves v flaming, a dragon should have a ward against flaming too.
Ohhhooh yes please!
I always thought black dragons should have a 2+ ward or be immune to fire completely.
And monsters should be way stronger, dragons should be like S8, T9. In the current world, it appears daemon princes are the fiercest of beasts, as they have the toughness of a griffon and the strength of a dragon, also armour and wards.
"Monster" should mean something else than "point your cannon at me and win".
I wish I had played during 7th ed. not wounding everything on 6's seems logical. How would a spear break a tank?
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yeah you can still wound ANYTHING on a 6+ so why not have super high toughness? theres also still poison. the literally only difference is that S6 attacks can wreck monsters. honestly thats bullshit.
make dragons T9 and cannons are wounding on a 3+. thats a big fricken deal. also yeah wtf how come you can take a helmet called dragonhelm and get a 2++ vs flaming yet dragons are fricken dragons and they dont have a 2++ vs flaming.
its a weird weird world out there.
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Dragons aren't innately fire focused save for Magma Dragons though (Forgeworld model), which I believe does have some form of ward save against Fire.
High Toughness units would be interesting - anyone who runs Warsphinxes has a good idea of how that game plays. Deal of a thousand cuts is upsetting indeed, but it's fun to lob it against a unit of White Lions and watch as the High Elf go-to unit actually begins to struggle a little. I think I mathhammered once that a Fire breathing Sphinx charging a White Lion unit actually wins combat, just about.
Really though, the main problem people have always had with Monstrous Mounts is that they're often too expensive and the character riding them was also vulnerable to cannon sniping, as well as being locked down in a challenge. If I had the option to take a riderless Dragon I'd be spamming them all day.
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Probably because dragonhelm refers to the protection against dragon fire it brings otherwise your ::heretic::
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A better question is: Why are cannons S10 ?
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cannons can be S10 but i think that what would be better is to have combined profiles for ridden monsters. you get the same armor, wounds, T, and ward/regen for the entire model.
you pay 600 pts for it so it might as well be good.
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Randomising who is hit should be more than sufficient.